NationStates Jolt Archive

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

in the blink of an eye

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

Probably not. I have a kid to raise.

Probably not. I have a kid to raise.

what if your kid is one of them?

Yes. If I remove emotion from my decision, I would die for them.

what if your kid is one of them?
Yes, they could be parents too you know.

Probably not. I have a kid to raise.
That would definately factor into my decision. I'd be more likely to sacrifice myself for strangers that were close to me...geographically I mean...and it would depend on the situation. If I weren't reasonably certain that my death would save them for long, I'm not sure I'd do it.

what if your kid is one of them?
I think you're more likely to sacrifice yourself for people you know...but it really depends...I mean, if someone was about to shoot up a bunch of people in a bank, and I figured I could stop the shooter, but die in the process, I'd do it. If I just had to hang myself so that 12 people in a different country could live, I would be a bit suspicious, and not leap into it.

not a snowballs chance

not a snowballs chance
In the Arctic? Alright! I applaud your sacrifice!

what if your kid is one of them?

What if he wasn't?

I don't mean to sound heartless. If I didn't have a son to take care of, I probably would, but my obligation is to him first and foremost. Besides, what kind of damnable situation would I be in where I have to die to save 12 random people?

Call me whatever, frankly I don't care but I'm afraid I couldn't do it. I feel bad but its the truth

Die, yes. Anytime and without question. Kill, no. Never, under no circumstances.

Die, yes. Anytime and without question.
What, you would never fight for your life if you were being killed unjustly?

Kill, no. Never, under no circumstances.
Even to save many people?

Framed the way the question is, no. I would like to be involved in a more active role than simply trading me for them. Would I hang around inside a burning building to help direct people out of it? Would I help folks get off of a sinking boat, sacrificing my turn? Probably yes, in either case.

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.
Sounds like a fun idea for a Reality TV show.

Not unless it came with a cushy office job in the afterlife.

What, you would never fight for your life if you were being killed unjustly?

I might instinctively struggle, but I wouldn't stand a chance anyway. I don't think my life is worth killing for.


Even to save many people?

No. Don't count on me for that... sorry.

Don't get me wrong I'd want to save them but I think that I know myself too well to con myself into sacrificing my life with no hope

no i wouldnt

and ill thank you to keep my name out of it, i dont want to have to go through life as "that bitch who wouldnt die to save 12 other people".

Call me selfish but NO! Only if I knew the persons.

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

I live in a western country. The resources used to keep me alive are more than sufficient to do the same for 12 Africans. Since I haven't comitted suicide yet i must therefor truthfully answer the poll with "no".

At the moment yes; but I'm feeling a bit down right now, so I'd die if I thought it meant any 12 people'd have something small and funny to them.

Like, I dunno, me try to have sex with them.

I'm a selfish bastard. I wouldn't die for anyone (family aside).

People you've never seen or met have no moral value, so I would answer no.

Probably not.

That said, I couldn't blame the state for forcing me to die for them, since it's in the best interests of sociey as a whole.

I live in a western country. The resources used to keep me alive are more than sufficient to do the same for 12 Africans. Since I haven't comitted suicide yet i must therefor truthfully answer the poll with "no".

Here, Here.

Pretty much anyone living in the developed world is doing so at the expenses of much global life and liberty each day.

Phrased the way the question is I would say no. The not knowing anything about the victims is the sticking point. The 12 people could be friends, family, kids, or saints. They could also be serial killers, child-molesters, dictators, or some other scum of the earth.

All questions pertaining to strangers can be answered by:

THE MONKEYSPHERE (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)

If I have no cause to defend them, I would not sacrifice myself on their behalf.

I would die if i knew that the people whose lives i've saved knew that who i was and remembered me, after all no one wants to die for someone ignorant of their sacrifice. What good is a sacrifice without a face?. What i lost and suffered must be a constant reminder to those left behind.

All questions pertaining to strangers can be answered by:

THE MONKEYSPHERE (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)

It is also a good place to find pics of masturbating primates.:P

Probably, if I thought my death would contribute well to society, like saving twelve kids or something. If it's anything else, then it's a case-by-case situation.

Is there any way to ensure they aren't all rapist/murderous scumbags? If not then no.

Trans-human']It is also a good place to find pics of masturbating primates.:P
That monkey is NOT masturbating! Possibly engaging in a little solo watersports action, but NOTHING ELSE!

Not in a million years.

Oh, and by the way, to all the people who are going on and on about "sacrifice" and such... A sacrifice is when you give something up [i]for an object of lesser value: anything else is a trade or even a gain. You're undermining your own morality by calling it a "sacrifice."

...And I love it.

Even if it was people I know, I wouldn’t. Why should I?

Not in a million years.

Oh, and by the way, to all the people who are going on and on about "sacrifice" and such... A sacrifice is when you give something up [i]for an object of lesser value: anything else is a trade or even a gain. You're undermining your own morality by calling it a "sacrifice."

...And I love it.
In terms of proper meaning yes, but since I'd imagine the people in question didn't mean it like that...no.

I think I would, and I hope I would, but I'd be very suspicious of any situation which required me to die for 12 people around the world... as in, how do I know they're not going to die anyway etc...

But if we take out all the reality of it working out, so I knew that those people would live their lives etc and my dying actually save them, then yes...

I hope that made sense...

Interesting situation. Ultamatly I'd say no, I'd preffer 100% control of my life (for my entire life) rather than save people who I don't know.

If they were good innocent people in theory I'd say yes but I'm unsure I would. Really if it was not my fault or in any way a cause of me I don't think my innocent death is worth it.

On a side note we COULD devote our lives to be doctors of helping people and could easily "save" 12 innocent people if we were committed but ultamatly I think we all feel our life is there to be enjoyed by ourselves and it would take something extreme to even consider giving up our life.

No, because this is a "bird in the hand" situation, and I'm the bird. It's better for me to be alive than those 12 people, since I'm not them. No team player here.

Hell no. What possible motive would I have? Twelve random strangers who could be anybody, and who I won't know beforehand? It makes no sense, except from some irrational, sacrifice-is-always-moral, self-immolating, suffers-from-an-extreme-excess-in-compassion viewpoint/ideology. What would be the purpose or point?

Besides, what kind of damnable situation would I be in where I have to die to save 12 random people?
Agreed. Hypothetical situations suck. I can't see it happening or can't imagine it, so no. I wouldn't.

Agreed. Hypothetical situations suck. I can't see it happening or can't imagine it, so no. I wouldn't.
Are you kidding? If there is no way you can see the situation actually occuring, you shout "YES I WOULD DIE TO SAVE MY FELLOW MAN!" from the rooftops, safe in the knowledge that no-one will ever call you on it. Plus, it'll get you lots of sex.

Are you kidding? If there is no way you can see the situation actually occuring, you shout "YES I WOULD DIE TO SAVE MY FELLOW MAN!" from the rooftops, safe in the knowledge that no-one will ever call you on it. Plus, it'll get you lots of sex.
Perhaps. Or they think you're crazy and run away. Far away.
I just think it's extremly hard for one to commit to something like this. It's not going to happen anytime soon that I can see (in my life).

you need to be more specific. I work in emergency services and put my life on the line for random people all the time, but i have equipment and training that helps me survive and i always put my safety above theirs.

If it were just a trade, my life for theirs then screw them. I don't believe in the no win scenario. Would i take up arms and attempt to free them? Certainly. Would i take the lives of the unjust people behind the plot? In a heartbeat.

My life is not worth more than one person, let alone 12. Yes. Depends somewhat on the circumstances behind the situation, but if my death is the only way to save 12 other people, so be it.

Of course, that's easier to say than it is to do.

you need to be more specific. I work in emergency services and put my life on the line for random people all the time, but i have equipment and training that helps me survive and i always put my safety above theirs.

If it were just a trade, my life for theirs then screw them. I don't believe in the no win scenario. Would i take up arms and attempt to free them? Certainly. Would i take the lives of the unjust people behind the plot? In a heartbeat.

Hell yes, Amen to that.

Exactly, I'd rather live to save these twelve random people than to die to save them.

Not for the entirety of this temporal smear of kin-self would I die. Yet, at the ridge of this aged would-potential, I do and am have been.

No, other than me being a cowardly SOB, what reason would I have to die for 12 random strangers?

you need to be more specific. I work in emergency services and put my life on the line for random people all the time, but i have equipment and training that helps me survive and i always put my safety above theirs.

If it were just a trade, my life for theirs then screw them. I don't believe in the no win scenario. Would i take up arms and attempt to free them? Certainly. Would i take the lives of the unjust people behind the plot? In a heartbeat.

Play to win is my motto.

If it was in that kind of scenario I'd fight to save myself aswell.

If it was a case of "these 12 people have led really bad lifestyles, we want your organs" I dun think so either.

If it was as such that there was no choice but for one person to die, I'd prolly do the best I could, at least I like think I'd have the courage to.

No.

I might instinctively struggle, but I wouldn't stand a chance anyway. I don't think my life is worth killing for.



No. Don't count on me for that... sorry.

What kind of emo is this?

not 12 random people, but if they were smarter than me than yes. I think they would help humanity more than I could.

If someone seriously threatened that 12 random people around the world would die by his hand, he'd be crazy and should be tossed in an asylum; but if that person could actually do it, then why trust that he would only kill 12 and that even if you did put yourself up, he would uphold his side of the promise?

not 12 random people, but if they were smarter than me than yes. I think they would help humanity more than I could.

If they were 12 Einstein's I would still say no.

Nah, but I think I'm better than 98% of the people on this planet; the chances that the combined benefit of those other 12 people living are greater than the benefit of my own existence is very, very low.

I would do whatever is most logical at all times.
Killing myself to save 12 people? Yes.
Killing x people to save x+1 people? Definitely.
Allow my loved one to die so that 2 or more people can live? Absolutely. (though I don't have a significant other, so I don't have sound proof about my hypothetical decision)

In movies I hate it when the main character is faced with the decision to save his loved one, or some other people or even humanity. It's quite clear that the loved one must die so that more people may live.

I must quote Spock, and this is absolutely true in its entirety:

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Not only no, but hell no. I'm no damn Jedi. It could be a hundred, a thousand, a freaking million... I guess that makes me a bad person. Or maybe it makes me an individual, who refuses to be placed below "society" or the "greater good", or some other concept that demeans the life of the individual. I guess I am a member of what you religious types call the "cult of the individual".

Now, if it was someone I know and care about, thats a different story. But that is my choice, because I place someone I love before myself. But strangers? Even people I know whom I don't love? Not a chance.

I must quote Spock, and this is absolutely true in its entirety:
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Yeah, but Spock lived because his flawed, human friends were willing to sacrifice their lives for him. They believed that "the needs of the one, outweighed the needs of the few."

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.
I'd sacrifice myself for 2 . . .my life isnt that important to me (but no im not suicidal)

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.

simple answer . . .i do

simple answer . . .i do
what is it that you are doing?

what is it that you are doing?
as part of my school i help at every opertunity . . .I have also given much of the monney that I earn to help those in more need than myself (im still in high school though) not much else I can do right now

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Neither needs nor value grace all at any point more than would suffice for none.

I would do whatever is most logical at all times.
Killing myself to save 12 people? Yes.
Killing x people to save x+1 people? Definitely.
Allow my loved one to die so that 2 or more people can live? Absolutely. (though I don't have a significant other, so I don't have sound proof about my hypothetical decision)

In movies I hate it when the main character is faced with the decision to save his loved one, or some other people or even humanity. It's quite clear that the loved one must die so that more people may live.

I must quote Spock, and this is absolutely true in its entirety:

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

No, not the needs of me

I'd sacrifice myself for 2 . . .my life isnt that important to me (but no im not suicidal)
kill myself to save two . . yes
kill myself to save a friend . . .yes
kill a loved one or friend to save myself . . .hells no
kill a loved one or freind to save others . . . also hells no
i give what i can and nothing more or less

depends on how I give up my life, just stand by and be shot, no.
Do somthing that leads to a certian death, but has some active action (i.e. if my unit was deployed to a hostage situation and we had to assualt a building, I would take the riskiest role, even if it was a guarenteed death)

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

No, never. I tend to hate people, and I can be quite the selfish bastard.

as part of my school i help at every opertunity . . .I have also given much of the monney that I earn to help those in more need than myself (im still in high school though) not much else I can do right now

please dont think in making light of your charity work. im not, its a good thing to help out those in need.

but thats not what im talking about

im talking about becoming a medical missionary so that you can go to darfur and risk your actual life helping starving people.

or going to iraq to stand in front of american tanks and ending up captured by some iraqi insurgent group who will probably cut off your head before its all done.

maybe going to cuba to help people trying to escape castros regime in little leaky boats.

something that would help people who will otherwise die without your help and will mean at least the dedication of your life to this work and the chance that it might kill you.

now im not saying you SHOULD do this. its just that its easy to say "yes i would die for 12 strangers" when no one is asking you to. the truth is we ARE being asked for help and we arent doing so much as spending a week in guatemala building houses for people who lost everything in recent mudslides. there are charity works that could cost you your life but you arent running out to do them (not that i mean YOU or that i think you should be doing these things)

im saying that if it were to come to pass that we were asked to die for 12 strangers, probably none of us would say yes.

Too many variables for this scenario.

Why die to save 12 people when you could live and save 24?

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.

I'm planning to do some charity work overseas at some point in the future, but I legally have to turn 21 first.

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

I probably will, when I'm done with college.

please dont think in making light of your charity work. im not, its a good thing to help out those in need.

but thats not what im talking about

im talking about becoming a medical missionary so that you can go to darfur and risk your actual life helping starving people.

or going to iraq to stand in front of american tanks and ending up captured by some iraqi insurgent group who will probably cut off your head before its all done.

maybe going to cuba to help people trying to escape castros regime in little leaky boats.

something that would help people who will otherwise die without your help and will mean at least the dedication of your life to this work and the chance that it might kill you.

now im not saying you SHOULD do this. its just that its easy to say "yes i would die for 12 strangers" when no one is asking you to. the truth is we ARE being asked for help and we arent doing so much as spending a week in guatemala building houses for people who lost everything in recent mudslides. there are charity works that could cost you your life but you arent running out to do them (not that i mean YOU or that i think you should be doing these things)

im saying that if it were to come to pass that we were asked to die for 12 strangers, probably none of us would say yes.

i was actually thinking about becoming a doctor and going to Iraq or darfur (not missionary im not religious) but not old enough yet. . .drated ageism . . .. though i agree with most of what you say i probably would die for twelve random people . . .my life just isnt worth all that much to me . . .one condition though . . .they would have to live longer than a year because of whatever sacrifice i made

Never, on the other hand, I would die to kill 12 people...they probably don't deserve to live anyway.

have any of you seen "i shouldnt be alive" on the discovery channel? its a show about people who survived extreme circumstances that really should have left them dead dead dead.

one episode was about a guy who was working on a mine removal project in cambodia when he was kidnapped by the khmer rouge. he had to talk himself and his translator out of a situation that 99% of the time results in death.

he survived and later lost a leg stepping on a mine at another mine removal site.

now THAT is a man who is willing to die for utter strangers.

In terms of proper meaning yes, but since I'd imagine the people in question didn't mean it like that...no.
I hope this wasn't meant as a defense of their statements, because as far as defenses go, this is a pretty piss-poor one. What sympathy do you expect me to hold for people who misuse language as they misuse philosophy?

I contend that they mean presicely that without even knowing it; that an individual life is exactly as worthless to them as the use of the term "sacrifice" would imply. It is a more accurate testament to their own morality than they could offer if they tried.

It all really depends on the situation. To make me sound like a soulless bastard, here's an example: If someone plucked me out of a crowd and told me he would either kill me or twelve people around the world would die, I would tell him no way, two people die every second anyway.

However, if suddenly I was plucked out of the same crowd and the man told me the same thing but I could see the twelve people, say they suddenly appeared in front of me, and I could see their faces and see they have lives to live and stories to tell ... Then yes, I would. If I didn't, I'd never forgive myself for it for the rest of my life.



It makes me seem shallow saying I would only do it if I can see them, but wouldn't we all? If we can see them and visualize them, imagine what their lives are like and see who they are, give them faces, they become more real to us. They become people rather than numbers. They become John, Jack and Jill rather than three people. Thus we are more likely to sacrifice oruselves for them because we know them better.

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.

What about those of us who said no? I've probably saved my share of lives as a volunteer. The scenario wasn't about weighed risks. It was about stupid risks. I gladly take weighed risks, but no way i'd sacrafice myself, that would be stupid. One of our sister units just got dispatched for a shooting literally 30 seconds ago. Someone could very well be bleeding out on a street corner but i can promise you they won't be going in until the police tell them it's safe. And they won't feel the least bit guilty if that person dies while they wait. Us in the business of life-saving are interested in our lives first and foremost.

No. If there is one thing I value most it is my life. Think about it would you realy die to save someone like me who would take you out in an instant to save my own ass? Or maybe you value a serial killers life more then your own? Also ask yourself: if 1 of the twelve people were a relative/loved one but the other 11 were terrible people that may or my not kill or harm many others, what would you do then?

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

Thats a hard and strange question.

When I sit here and think about it I would have to say no but if I am at the same place one of the 12 random are and they are about to die unless I do something I think I would because I am sure I would not have time to think about it once or twice in advance.

Hell no.
Infact i'd expect those people to sacrifice themselves for the good of me.
My obligations are to me and me only.

And WeavesWorld question is the better.

why? what's in it for me?

Agreed. Hypothetical situations suck. I can't see it happening or can't imagine it, so no. I wouldn't.

Eeeerm.. the situation is quite real, even though the topicstarter it probably did not intended it to be. Lots of people who are currently facing certain death *could* be saved by you; if you were willing t risk your life. Lots of people could be kept alive if the resources *you* use up to sustain yourself were redistributed - because the simple fact that you use a computer indicates you have spare money. Some people in this world can probably live for several months on your daily budget...

Of course, just giving lots to charity is an alternative for the actual suicide - especially if your survival means you can save more.

Eeeerm.. the situation is quite real, even though the topicstarter it probably did not intended it to be. Lots of people who are currently facing certain death *could* be saved by you; if you were willing t risk your life. Lots of people could be kept alive if the resources *you* use up to sustain yourself were redistributed - because the simple fact that you use a computer indicates you have spare money. Some people in this world can probably live for several months on your daily budget...

Of course, just giving lots to charity is an alternative for the actual suicide - especially if your survival means you can save more.

I dunno man, there are better solutions than redistribution... I mean, someone could remain alive, but work with the peace corps (or simular organisation) and help to create a sustainable economy for the people of the area in question. Just giving them what you have doesn't help them in the long run. It just leads to future generations of their descendants not having enough still. It's the whole Lao Tzu thing about giving a man a fish.

Not in a million years.

Oh, and by the way, to all the people who are going on and on about "sacrifice" and such... A sacrifice is when you give something up [i]for an object of lesser value: anything else is a trade or even a gain. You're undermining your own morality by calling it a "sacrifice."

...And I love it.
Depends, it would be a "sacrifice" for you because your life (to you that is) is more valuble then theirs.

I don't know. Depends on the situation I guess.

I'm a security guard. It might occur that I'd have to ... endanger myself to protect people under my custody/ protection. That's my job, my duty and I'd do so without hesitation.

Eeeerm.. the situation is quite real, even though the topicstarter it probably did not intended it to be. Lots of people who are currently facing certain death *could* be saved by you; if you were willing t risk your life. Lots of people could be kept alive if the resources *you* use up to sustain yourself were redistributed - because the simple fact that you use a computer indicates you have spare money. Some people in this world can probably live for several months on your daily budget...

Of course, just giving lots to charity is an alternative for the actual suicide - especially if your survival means you can save more.
Yes.. But that's not the question. The question is would you die to keep alive 12 random others. I take that as in straight death, not redistribution of resources, just dying. So therefore it is a hypothetical situation until a real example of this exact thing happening is shown to me. No is still the answer in any case.
Btw: I accept what you're saying and it is true. But I'm taking the question quite literally. So in which case I find it to be hypothetical.

No... Because of the random part. If I was a soldier I'd jump on a grenade or charge a machine gun nest to save my squad. Call me selfish, or provincial, or whatever, but the people in question would have to be my friends, my dependents, my comrades in arms, or at least my countrymen. Even then, I would try to save myself too if possible.

No, but would i kill 12 Random people to save myself?
Yes.

So it's that time of night for me and while I've been wrapping presents at a tortoise pace, this question popped back into my head. Why? Because this is the type of crazy stuff I chew on when I can't sleep. More accurately? I decided my first answer was a cop-out.

I began to think, why wouldn't I let myself die for 12 others. After all my son would go on living either way and who says he really needs me to survive. The fact of the matter is it doesn't. So why was my instinctual reaction "no"?

Second opinion: I'm selfish. Hey! That's not 100% correct either, I thought somewhat defensively. After all, I would knowingly take the chance of dying for one person if I saw him or her in jeopardy and thought I could save that person. Of course I would hope I lived in such a circumstance. But why would I take the chance? Because I couldn't bear the thought of just standing there and watching the person die when there's a chance I could save him or her and live.

So I pondered further. What is this odd situation where I must either die or sacrifice 12 random people? Suddenly I am in a cell and some guy barges in pointing a gun at my head. He says, "I have 12 people in the other room and either you die or they die!"

"But why?," I ask.

"Because I don't like you," he responds. Fair enough. So I ask him to give me an hour to think about it and he says, "Fine. It's dinner time anyway."

Now I'm stuck trying to figure out my decision. I don't know these people. I have not seen their faces. They are truly random in my mind. What if they are 12 murderes? What if they are twelve doctors? Do I die wondering if I have just doomed numerous potential victims of 12 sociopathic killers? Do I live wondering if I have just doomed numerous people who could have been potentially saved by 12 doctors? I dug a hole out of that cell and escaped. I came to the conclusion that it's almost impossible for me to answer this question due to the amount of unkown variables.

The one that nearly fried my brain was, "Would I kill my son to save 12 babies?"

The one that nearly fried my brain was, "Would I kill my son to save 12 babies?"

Ask yourself : " would you die for him?"...

Remember the 7th sign !!!

Ask yourself : " would you die for him?"...

Remember the 7th sign !!!


Yes. I would. In a heartbeat, no questions asked, not a millisecond of thought required. Yes.

What kind of emo is this?

Don't know... what's an emo?

Not only would I not die to save 12 random people, but I'd be willing to kill someone if it meant I would live.

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.
Yes. I suppose it helps that I'm nearing the end and have devoted most of my life to service. It would help if they knew of my substitution for them, since I would encourage them to make something of their lives and do so in service to others. We don't live in a vacume, you know.

Don't know... what's an emo?
Hehehe! GOOD QUESTION! :D

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.
I would. My life here is brief at best, if I could die to help 12 people live I would.

I would probably die to save one life, but I am not scared of dying, and I am not scared of leaving behind my family, I have a better place to go anyway.

Not in a million years.

Oh, and by the way, to all the people who are going on and on about "sacrifice" and such... A sacrifice is when you give something up [i]for an object of lesser value: anything else is a trade or even a gain. You're undermining your own morality by calling it a "sacrifice."

...And I love it.
I'm not sure which dictionary you're reading but the OED defines a sacrifice as''the act of giving up something valued for the sake of something more important or worthy'', not less. I would do it in an instant, which i know says something about my state of mind now but that is a discussion for another day.

I might instinctively struggle, but I wouldn't stand a chance anyway. I don't think my life is worth killing for.
So you are worth less than a murderer? Who might go on to kill other people?

No. Don't count on me for that... sorry.
This is surely only a few steps above, in moral terms, killing them yourself.

Is there any way to ensure they aren't all rapist/murderous scumbags? If not then no.
I assume this is a random selection of twelve people. Most people in the world are not scumbags, so probably not.

Not in a million years.

Oh, and by the way, to all the people who are going on and on about "sacrifice" and such... A sacrifice is when you give something up [i]for an object of lesser value: anything else is a trade or even a gain. You're undermining your own morality by calling it a "sacrifice."

...And I love it.
Good point Melkor.

Hell no. What possible motive would I have? Twelve random strangers who could be anybody, and who I won't know beforehand? It makes no sense, except from some irrational, sacrifice-is-always-moral, self-immolating, suffers-from-an-extreme-excess-in-compassion viewpoint/ideology. What would be the purpose or point?
Actually to say yes requires one (or at least me) to cut off their emotions, so it has nothing to do with compassion. The "yes" viewpoint is based on the idea that my life is, objectively, no more valuable than the lives of 12 random people.

I don't believe in the no win scenario. Would i take up arms and attempt to free them? Certainly. Would i take the lives of the unjust people behind the plot? In a heartbeat.
That's a pretty good point, though I don't think that the original scenario was a "no-win".

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
That's utilitarianism, the philosophy which I most agree with, but be aware that some on this forum do not.

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.
How do you know I'm not? I am considering joining an aid mission this summer, but these things can be expensive. I am already a member of Amnesty International.

or going to iraq to stand in front of american tanks and ending up captured by some iraqi insurgent group who will probably cut off your head before its all done.

Stand in front of them? As a protestor or a soldier? As a protestor would achieve nothing but death. As a soldier? Insurgents are too cowardly to capture soldiers.

If we can see them and visualize them, imagine what their lives are like and see who they are, give them faces, they become more real to us. They become people rather than numbers. They become John, Jack and Jill rather than three people. Thus we are more likely to sacrifice oruselves for them because we know them better.
Hence my point about emotions getting in the way.

Too many variables for this scenario.

Why die to save 12 people when you could live and save 24?
That's the best point in the thread. You may have just converted me to your side.

I said no, but in the course of my life, I believe that I can make a difference to save at least 12...

Ok so Im just greedy.

People asked for a situation they can picture so... Say you are being held hostage by a madman who MUST tell the truth (call it a disfunction, or his thing, but he must keep his word all costs.) He has taken you to a unknown part of the world, along with 12 other people, he has some fun-and-games for you (he truly is mad.) He draws your name out of a hat, and says like follows: "I give you a choice, you ether decide for to shot you between the eyes, or i'll kill all the other hostages...cool little game show of mine huh?"
In that situation probably not. There are two options for me. Either to accept death, or to try and slay him before he could do anything (on no account would I say, "kill the rest"; that would be stupid). Where is the guarantee that he won't kill more people once I am dead? In all likelihood I would desparately try and save myself and the others.

one death for twelve lives?

sure.

In the Arctic? Alright! I applaud your sacrifice!

LOL!!!

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

People asked for a situation they can picture so... Say you are being held hostage by a madman who MUST tell the truth (call it a disfunction, or his thing, but he must keep his word all costs.) He has taken you to a unknown part of the world, along with 12 other people, he has some fun-and-games for you (he truly is mad.) He draws your name out of a hat, and says like follows: "I give you a choice, you ether decide for to shot you between the eyes, or i'll kill all the other hostages...cool little game show of mine huh?"
A few questions:
Will I go free if I don't decide to sacrifice myself, or will I stay in captivity?
Do I have any partial responsibility for the others being there, or was it all the madman's actions that brought them there?

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.How do you know that those who did answer yes are not already doing that and more?

But what if you were picked randomly then you can't sacrifice!
:)
OR
:rolleyes:
(thinks for about half an hour)
Maybe a member of your family get picked randomly the your in for it deep!

But what if you were picked randomly then you can't sacrifice!
:)
OR
:rolleyes:
(thinks for about half an hour)
Maybe a member of your family get picked randomly the your in for it deep!
that's a good point.

Maybe. A part of me would want to save myself, but then another part of me knows how terrible the guilt would be. I really don't know.

So you are worth less than a murderer? Who might go on to kill other people?

Possibly. There's no way of knowing really, the only thing I DO know is that in no case my life is worth more than that of any other person.


This is surely only a few steps above, in moral terms, killing them yourself.



I know. The situation is such that I cannot avoid killing somebody, really.

No. In fact, I'd probably be the person killing them.

I wouldn't die to save 100 random people, or 1,000.

I wouldn't die to save 1 million random people.

I wouldn't die to save 1 billion random people.

I wouldn't die to save my own family.

I wouldn't die to save the Earth.

Humanity just isn't worth it. That and I'm an arrogant egoist who cares nothing for anybody. :D

Depends, it would be a "sacrifice" for you because your life (to you that is) is more valuble then theirs.
Precisely.

And, for that very reason is why I wouldn't do it: I do not condone the ethics of self-sacrifice--or of human sacrifice at all. When the Mayans did it, we called them savages; but we've somehow managed to elevate sacrifice to the highest tier of morailty once again. Contemporary philosophy tells us that the highest virtue is not to produce, but to give things up to others--nevermind that such a donation wouldn't be possible without a producer to begin with. We shrug at acheivement and production, and applaud things like "sacrifice" and donation. It sickens me.

[deep bow]

A fellow Objectivist, perhaps?

so for all you who answered YES.

why arent you doing so right now?

you could save hundreds of people in africa by working for any number of charities.

you could save ONE person just by joining amnesty international and writing letters of protest.

why arent you? and if you are too young to make that decision now, why arent you working toward this life of self sacrifice?

there are way more than a dozen people out there to be saved if you put your life into it.

In that case, I change my answer to no. I would not sacrifice myself for other strangers. However if it were for close, loved ones, that would be an entirely different matter. Additionally, I can't picture the situation and there are too many variables, so it's kind of hard to answer this hypothetical situation beyond what I answered.

[deep bow]

A fellow Objectivist, perhaps?
:eek:

Welcome, my friend!

For quite some time I have been [more or less] the only Objectivist on these forums. I've been kind of enjoying the whole lone wolf thing, but it's nice to see some backup. Welcome to the fold!

For quite some time I have been [more or less] the only Objectivist on these forums. I've been kind of enjoying the whole lone wolf thing, but it's nice to see some backup. Welcome to the fold!
A match made in hell...(or is that Ayn Rand's bowels?) :D

A match made in hell...(or is that Ayn Rand's bowels?) :D
Perhaps. Depends on how long this one sticks around ;)

Well the world is a harsh place, and odds are most of the people killed will be assholes. Even if thats not true I wouldn't do it. The chances of it being people I know, since its random, are astronomical. I would consider it all a roll of the dice in which they all lost, and go with the flow. Whether or not I would feel bad is debatable, since I did not directly kill them. ^_~

Even if it WAS my friends and family theres a pretty good chance I wouldn't randomly die. I can see myself living through anything. If I would be remembered forever I might though, but then again I believe that when I die I'm dead, and I wouldn't want to waste it on some people I came into contact with and lived with through no fault of my own.

So in conclusion... Probably never. Unless it was someone who my death would leave a tremendous impact on, and if I would be able to haunt them, and I would need a guarantee.:D

:eek:

Welcome, my friend!

For quite some time I have been [more or less] the only Objectivist on these forums. I've been kind of enjoying the whole lone wolf thing, but it's nice to see some backup. Welcome to the fold!


Thank you! And yes, I think I'll be sticking around...these forums are at least as interesting as the game itself...

No. In fact, I'd probably be the person killing them.

I wouldn't die to save 100 random people, or 1,000.

I wouldn't die to save 1 million random people.

I wouldn't die to save 1 billion random people.

I wouldn't die to save my own family.

I wouldn't die to save the Earth.

Humanity just isn't worth it. That and I'm an arrogant egoist who cares nothing for anybody. :D
I guess I learn towards this, but it depends on my emotional state at the time, like if I go completely insane and become positive that I will return in some form to make sure my little sacrifice thing wasn't wasted. Otherwise, they're the ones dying, let them figure it out.

does this poll make sense?

Precisely.

And, for that very reason is why I wouldn't do it: I do not condone the ethics of self-sacrifice--or of human sacrifice at all. When the Mayans did it, we called them savages; but we've somehow managed to elevate sacrifice to the highest tier of morailty once again. Contemporary philosophy tells us that the highest virtue is not to produce, but to give things up to others--nevermind that such a donation wouldn't be possible without a producer to begin with. We shrug at acheivement and production, and applaud things like "sacrifice" and donation. It sickens me.

Thats the human psyche for you. Though its really all about compassion. Giving someone something out of your own pocket or giving someone something that someone can't get any other way than by you giving it to them. If you're not losing something and can freely give something away, then theres no compassion involved, and you might as well be a machine dispensing the thing.

No. The chances of one of these people being someone I know or even someone I have heard of are negligable. As a human, my insticts are to survive and procreate.

Those people combined will accomplish more than I ever could, so yes. Not to mention I'm pretty bored with life right now. Ask me again in about 5 years.

No. In fact, I'd probably be the person killing them.

I wouldn't die to save 100 random people, or 1,000.

I wouldn't die to save 1 million random people.

I wouldn't die to save 1 billion random people.

I wouldn't die to save my own family.

I wouldn't die to save the Earth.

Humanity just isn't worth it. That and I'm an arrogant egoist who cares nothing for anybody. :D

See the hard thing with you is to work out whether you're telling the truth or not... I believed you til that last smilie...

Oh well I just pray that one day you will find someone you'd be willing to die for...

(not that I want you to be in that situation where you'd have to, I just want you to come to the realisation that there is someone you would die for..)

But even if you don't... we all love you anyway...:fluffle:

And FMS, the forums are much more interesting than the game, believe me:D

does this poll make sense?
Yes, yes I believe it does.

Only if I'd have them on my conscience for the rest of my life. Which I probably would. Meh. Je vais etre authentique here and say no anyway.

It doesn't matter how many people there are. I'd let them die no matter what.

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

No i wouldn't. Now, if i knew whom they were, and they were people i cared for, that'd be a whole different story, but i won't kill myself to save 12 unknowns.

No. In fact, I'd probably be the person killing them.

I wouldn't die to save 100 random people, or 1,000.

I wouldn't die to save 1 million random people.

I wouldn't die to save 1 billion random people.

I wouldn't die to save my own family.

I wouldn't die to save the Earth.

Humanity just isn't worth it. That and I'm an arrogant egoist who cares nothing for anybody. :DApart from the second and very last sentences, the same goes for me. If I could however, without any negative consequences, there are atleast a couple of people I would kill, and quite possibly, I would end up killing at least a fair portion of humanity. But as it is now, it would be far from worth it. (killing ALL of humanity at the same time at the price of my own life might be something to concider, should I, which is more than extremely unlikely, get the chance, however)

*bump*

I liked this thread

Twelve ramdom people are picked from the world, you don't know who they are, they could be young, old, fat, think, strong, weak, male, or female. They will all die...unless you decide to sacrafice yourself for those people you don't even know. The hypothetical question is...would you do it? Come now answer the poll truthfully.

I would die anyway... so why not be done with it sooner and at least do one good thing with this poor excuse for a life?

[/self-pity]

I would die anyway... so why not be done with it sooner and at least do one good thing with this poor excuse for a life?

[/self-pity]

*doesn't know what to say*

*hugs*

*doesn't know what to say*

*hugs*

Not to worry, it sounds worse than it is, I guess. Thanks for the hug, though ;)

I would die anyway... so why not be done with it sooner and at least do one good thing with this poor excuse for a life?

[/self-pity]

So called "poor excuses" for lives are always the most interesting ones.

So called "poor excuses" for lives are always the most interesting ones.

Yes. I could write a couple of books about it.








But I won't. :p

Yes. I could write a couple of books about it.








But I won't. :p

Just use a pen name and masquerade it as fiction. :p

Just use a pen name and masquerade it as fiction. :p

"How I was born... and things went downhill from then on" by C. Southwest???

"How I was born... and things went downhill from then on" by C. Southwest???

Excellent.

Though perhaps a more catchy title. "The day the world turned sour". You'll make millions! Or not. But whatever. :p

If I could think straight... I'd certainly sacrifice myself

If I could think straight... I'd certainly sacrifice myself
:fluffle:

Having read some of the arguments I'd have to think, people do die every secound and ultimatly I would just stop that rough figure for 12 secounds. I like and value my life too much. Only danger to close family or freedoms would make me consider it.

In the Iraq misionarry or volunteer situation I would agree it might help out some specific people but do you go as far to starve yourself to feed 5 others or go cold and ill if 3 other people will avoid that fate. Only problem now is someone needs to sacrifice themselves to help you right..

I think your views on politics may actually make a difference on this as well on how equal you think people are/should be.

I'd like to think I'd sacrifice myself for others, but really, I wouldn't.. At least it's very unlikely.

On the other hand I save dozens of people each day by not going on a murderous rampage, despite people driving me insane.

I don't know myself well enough to answer the question.