NationStates Jolt Archive

Friday, December 23, 2005; Posted: 7:33 a.m. EST (12:33 GMT)

ROME, Italy (AP) -- A judge has issued European arrest warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives in connection with the alleged kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric from a Milan street in 2003, a prosecutor said Friday.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro said the warrants allowed for the arrest of the suspects in any of the 25 EU member countries. Previously, Italy had issued arrest warrants for the 22 inside Italy.
...
Prosecutors say the cleric's abduction was a serious violation of Italian sovereignty.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/23/italy.warrants.ap/index.html

If the Judge says Guilty.. What should the sentence be?

Whatever the charges would be for kidnapping and, if they can prove it, espionage.

Weeell, that's 22 CIA agents who won't be traveling to europe anytime soon.

Weeell, that's 22 CIA agents who won't be traveling to europe anytime soon.some may still be over there

some may still be over there
Doubtful they'll be identified as such, however, and they will probably be withdrawn relatively soon.

If the Judge says Guilty.. What should the sentence be?


Well truly nothing will come of this I believe. It is in my opinion a political stunt. Now I do not know if they actually catch one of these agents. What is the can they be sentanced with? Do you know?

What is the can they be sentanced with? Do you know?as previously noted Kidnapping and espionage are Crimes...

Espionage is working underground on behalf of foreign governments.
..Like the purported US agents stealing Bolivian missiles..

Friday, December 23, 2005; Posted: 7:33 a.m. EST (12:33 GMT)

ROME, Italy (AP) -- A judge has issued European arrest warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives in connection with the alleged kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric from a Milan street in 2003, a prosecutor said Friday.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro said the warrants allowed for the arrest of the suspects in any of the 25 EU member countries. Previously, Italy had issued arrest warrants for the 22 inside Italy.
...
Prosecutors say the cleric's abduction was a serious violation of Italian sovereignty.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/23/italy.warrants.ap/index.html

obsurd... I'd put a 100 bucks on the reality those CIA agents are protected by Diplomatic immunity, so they can't even be arrested.

as previously noted Kidnapping and espionage are Crimes...

Espionage is working underground on behalf of foreign governments.
..Like the purported US agents stealing Bolivian missiles..

Well I understand this. What actual sentance could they be facing.

obsurd... I'd put a 100 bucks on the reality those CIA agents are protected by Diplomatic immunity, so they can't even be arrested.

Kidnapping would not be considered diplomatic immunity.

as previously noted Kidnapping and espionage are Crimes...

Espionage is working underground on behalf of foreign governments.
..Like the purported US agents stealing Bolivian missiles..

Espionage would be almost impossible to prove unless these agents were suspected of being agents months ago and had been monitored by Italian police.

Kidnapping would not be considered diplomatic immunity.

Even if the CIA agents killed the Cleric, they would still be covered under diplomatic immunity (as long as they worked out of the embassy). This will not involve the Agents themselves, but rather will become an international incident.. probably settled outside of the medias eye

Even if the CIA agents killed the Cleric, they would still be covered under diplomatic immunity (as long as they worked out of the embassy). This will not involve the Agents themselves, but rather will become an international incident.. probably settled outside of the medias eye

Eh? Diplomatic immunity covers murder as well? I thought federal crimes got your diplomatic immunity revoked by the host country and locked up for charges.

Eh? Diplomatic immunity covers murder as well? I thought federal crimes got your diplomatic immunity revoked by the host country and locked up for charges.

Yes, it covers everything. Though since the country that diplomats are resident in normally keeps tabs on everyone who has this immunity, I think the Italians would know if they had it or not. I dont think they do, 22 people seems too much, not everyone working out of the embassy would have diplomatic immunity.

Yes, it covers everything. Though since the country that diplomats are resident in normally keeps tabs on everyone who has this immunity, I think the Italians would know if they had it or not. I dont think they do, 22 people seems too much, not everyone working out of the embassy would have diplomatic immunity.

Generally speaking though, CIA agents work out of embassies for this express purpose... I would expect if the CIA were conducting operations without the Italian governments knowlege, theywould use agents with immunity

I wonder if Italian authorities have any idea of any individual involved-any name or any image. Or if they just know 22 men were involved and they are hoping they turn themselves in.
Or 11 men using different names.

Eh? Diplomatic immunity covers murder as well? I thought federal crimes got your diplomatic immunity revoked by the host country and locked up for charges.

Usually if it is an excessive crime, host nations will demand the immunity revoked form the diplmats home country. Usually they do, however, in this case (it being US operations) its not likely

Friday, December 23, 2005; Posted: 7:33 a.m. EST (12:33 GMT)

ROME, Italy (AP) -- A judge has issued European arrest warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives in connection with the alleged kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric from a Milan street in 2003, a prosecutor said Friday.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro said the warrants allowed for the arrest of the suspects in any of the 25 EU member countries. Previously, Italy had issued arrest warrants for the 22 inside Italy.
...
Prosecutors say the cleric's abduction was a serious violation of Italian sovereignty.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/23/italy.warrants.ap/index.html

Tell Italy we'll give up our operatives if they stop paying the ransom for hosteges in Iraq. I know your against it but you don't have to help the other side...

Tell Italy we'll give up our operatives if they stop paying the ransom for hosteges in Iraq. I know your against it but you don't have to help the other side...hey...we migth as well thell them:"Fuck You Italy...fuck you all stupid Italians.. You were all born on the wrong country.. We do it because we can.. Might is Right We rule the world..etc.." [/sarcasm]Disclaimer: last Quote mine...as NeoCon-Moons is a product of my imagination... any resemblance with a public or private individual is pure coincidence.

Usually if it is an excessive crime, host nations will demand the immunity revoked form the diplmats home country. Usually they do, however, in this case (it being US operations) its not likely

Actually, I believe that whilst diplomatic immunitity means a person who is covered by it cannot be arrested, this is with the priviso of 'reasonable constraints'. Although VERY rarely exercised, I think this means that in an emergency e.g. defence of the nation, public safety or the prevention of a serious crime, such a person can still be arrested.

Due to the effects of such an arrest, it would obviously have to be a very serious reason to arrest a person with diplomatic immunity. However, I think such a serious violation of the law as kidnapping is such a serious reason. I also think that the fact that the person kidnapped was quite possibly subject to torture is against European-wide law. I hope that the Italian justice ministry goes further and asks for these agents to be extradited. Naturally, the USA will refuse to do so, as it's human rights record is poor, but it will at least send a strong message that this kind of illegal behaviour is not acceptable.

I'm glad you guys are angry about this. I am, too. I'm angry that the CIA was caught. We all need to get use to it, because this kind of stuff will be far more common in the future. My personal bet is that covert CIA raids (and maybe a few Special Ops for good measure) do stuff like this in the Middle East all the time.

I'm willing to bet that this whole issue has some bearing on the Torino Olympics.

I'm willing to bet that this whole issue has some bearing on the Torino Olympics.
How? I don't understand how it's linked.

How? I don't understand how it's linked.Olympics are always politically charged events...

for example.. I clearly remember the world's citizens reaction when the Israel flag entered the stadium at the last Olympic games.

I think... what he means is that the US flag may get a similar treatment..

Olympics are always politically charged events...

for example.. I clearly remember the world's citizens reaction when the Israel flag entered the stadium at the last Olympic games.

I think... what he means is that the US flag may get a similar treatment..
Oh right, that wasn't at all clear.

In fact, if I remember rightly, in Athens everyone was expecting the Israeli flag to be met by booing etc because of their treatment of the Palestinians, but in fact, in the end nothing very much happened.

I really think this has nothing to do with the Olympics. Sure, the USA might not get huge cheers, but I don't think they will get a overly sour welcome in Torino.

obsurd... I'd put a 100 bucks on the reality those CIA agents are protected by Diplomatic immunity, so they can't even be arrested.

Jesus Christ, does everyone have a 5 second attention span? Because of the Plame affair, everyone here should be acquainted with what a NOC is, and a NOC is who would be conducting operations in a foreign country like this.

NOC means Non Official Cover. They get caught, they're on their own.

Jesus Christ, does everyone have a 5 second attention span? Because of the Plame affair, everyone here should be acquainted with what a NOC is, and a NOC is who would be conducting operations in a foreign country like this.

NOC means Non Official Cover. They get caught, they're on their own.
I thought that was SOP ... as they have to REGISTER people with diplomatic imunity
It would be insanly stupid of them to have CIA agents with imunity, the list is not THAT big of people with that immunity

Whatever the charges would be for kidnapping and, if they can prove it, espionage.

Espionage? Firing squad anyone? Now that would rock!

Espionage? Firing squad anyone? Now that would rock!

IIRC no EU countries may use the death penalty. a very long prison sentence would be expected though.

Of course this is purely speculative as the US is never going to give up its agents and Italy will just make outraged noises for a bit until everyone forgets about it, just like they have in England.:rolleyes:

Of course this is purely speculative as the US is never going to give up its agents and Italy will just make outraged noises for a bit until everyone forgets about it, just like they have in England.:rolleyes:
The whole thing is diplomatic anyways. Just as with the Spanish who have arrest warrants on a number of US soldiers who fired at the Palestine Hotel during the Battle of Baghdad and killed a Spanish Journalist or two.

These agents won't return to Europe, but others will take their place. All it does is send a message to the Italian people, and perhaps even to the US Government that Europe is not amused.