NationStates Jolt Archive

If you're as sick and tired of religious bigots out to prove that one "faith" is better than another "faith" and that their god can beat up everybody else's god, then look below.

I took this photo (http://www.musicalpeace.org/pix/altar.JPG) myself in a temple in another country. As far as I know, I am the only person who has photographed the interior of this temple, a privilege which I had based on a friendship with the man who has run it for some 35 years. I would prefer not to give out specific information about its location because I know that this could make it a subject of study, and these people don't want to be guinea pigs. They were perhaps the most accepting and decent people I have ever met in my travels, and I promised years ago not to allow their privacy to be violated. I am allowed to post this photo (http://www.musicalpeace.org/pix/altar.JPG), however.

Look at the photo carefully. Much of it will be unfamiliar to the people who read this forum, but I think it's fairly clear that this is not a Christian church. Now, see the man on the left with one hand raised? Look by his feet. See the blue-shaded picture there? Who is that in that photo?

You see, it's not necessarily the case that one must denigrate the religions of others. In fact, there is a worldview out there which states that ALL religions are equally valid and that each one can give what is needed to be given for a particular people in a particular time and place. The photo (http://www.musicalpeace.org/pix/altar.JPG) is here to offer proof that this really does exist, despite all of those who wish it were otherwise and don't find it enough to think that they're right but that everybody else must be wrong.

Frankly, this is one of the biggest problems I have with religions in general. A humble temple in the middle of nowhere gives me more hope for humanity than all of the slimy, bigoted "arguments" over whose prophet is bad and whose is good ever will.

Getting tired of bigots is a dead end road, since that would require one to be tired of humanity.

That's my cynical comment for the day.

I hate filefactory. I got bombarded with a load of ads and then I couldn't get the pic to work.

I hate filefactory. I got bombarded with a load of ads and then I couldn't get the pic to work.

Yeah, sorry about that. I fixed the link.

Getting tired of bigots is a dead end road, since that would require one to be tired of humanity.

That's my cynical comment for the day.
Oh, thank you so much for that generous dollop of cynicism first thing in the morning. After reading that, I don't know whether to shit or just go shoot myself! :(

I, for once, will suspend my usual cynicism and say thanks! It's good to know there are tolerant people out there. It's easy to become jaded at this time of year by all of the arguments and bigotry that surrounds what is supposed to be a time of celebration. This is a nice antidote.

And whatever you celebrate at this time of year, have a great one!

;)

Oh, thank you so much for that generous dollop of cynicism first thing in the morning. After reading that, I don't know whether to shit or just go shoot myself! :(

You could wait for a long while for the poo to turn into a fecaloma and have it perforate your bowel like a bullet of poo, then you'd have both!

Getting tired of bigots is a dead end road, since that would require one to be tired of humanity.

That's my cynical comment for the day.
What if one is already tired of humanity? An exercise in futility, I know, but hardly unusual.

Isn't there really only one God, one Creator. And if that basic principle is true then all the revealed religions must be one religion.



All the Divine Manifestations sent by God into the world would have gone through their terrible hardships and sufferings for the single hope of spreading Truth, unity and concord among men. Christ endured a life of sorrow, pain and grief, to bring a perfect example of love into the world -- and in spite of this we continue to act in a contrary spirit one towards the other!

Love is the fundamental principle of God's purpose for man, and He has commanded us to love each other even as He loves us. All these discords and disputes which we hear on all sides only tend to increase materiality.

The world for the most part is sunk in materialism, and the blessings of the Holy Spirit are ignored. There is so little real spiritual feeling, and the progress of the world is for the most part merely material. Men are becoming like unto beasts that perish, for we know that they have no spiritual feeling -- they do not turn to God, they have no religion! These things belong to man alone, and if he is without them he is a prisoner of nature, and no whit better than an animal.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 121)

If you are sick and tired of religious bigots out to prove that one "faith" is better than another "faith" then maybe it's time you stopped reading those threads...

The worldview that says all religions are equally valid is the one that says they are all equally wrong. You cannot at the same time believe that Allah is the one true God and that there are many Hindu gods. It simply doesn't work. It is however entirely possible to respect people of other faiths without accepting their beliefs.

The worldview that says all religions are equally valid is the one that says they are all equally wrong. You cannot at the same time believe that Allah is the one true God and that there are many Hindu gods. It simply doesn't work. It is however entirely possible to respect people of other faiths without accepting their beliefs.
:)


I don't know when the definition of tolerance suddenly changed. I find more and more lately that I am being called intolerant because of my religion. I can tolerate other religions, I can respect another's right to be a different religion than mine. I have the right to believe that they are wrong, very wrong. I even have the right to let them know that I believe that they are wrong, just like they have the right to let me know that they believe I am wrong, and I suppose they even have the right to call me a bigot. I really wish people wouldn't call me names though, just for practicing my religion, that sounds intolerant to me.

The problem is that religions, like any corporate enterprise, naturally tend towards a monopoly. Unlike corporate enterprises however, religions have the influence to command people to kill in their name.

It's a Pepsi / Coke / Highlander thing. Far too many people end up believing that There Must Only Be One.

If you are sick and tired of religious bigots out to prove that one "faith" is better than another "faith" then maybe it's time you stopped reading those threads...

The worldview that says all religions are equally valid is the one that says they are all equally wrong. You cannot at the same time believe that Allah is the one true God and that there are many Hindu gods. It simply doesn't work. It is however entirely possible to respect people of other faiths without accepting their beliefs.

Well, I suppose if you believe in One True God, you would have to dismiss all others. If you're a polytheist, however, there is a far less a problem with simply accepting Allah, Yahweh, or any other name for a One True God. Admittedly, that would tend to conflict with the whole One True God idea, which many monotheists don't seem to take kindly to...

You could wait for a long while for the poo to turn into a fecaloma and have it perforate your bowel like a bullet of poo, then you'd have both!
ICK! Fass, you think of the damndest things! :eek:

What if one is already tired of humanity? An exercise in futility, I know, but hardly unusual.
Ah! Your cynicism is showing! :p

Looks to me more like someone can't make up their minds. :D

I don't know when the definition of tolerance suddenly changed. I find more and more lately that I am being called intolerant because of my religion. I can tolerate other religions, I can respect another's right to be a different religion than mine. I have the right to believe that they are wrong, very wrong. I even have the right to let them know that I believe that they are wrong, just like they have the right to let me know that they believe I am wrong, and I suppose they even have the right to call me a bigot. I really wish people wouldn't call me names though, just for practicing my religion, that sounds intolerant to me.
[ calls Smunkeeville names! ] Cutie, sweetheart, darlin', 'n all kinna other names! :D

Looks to me more like someone can't make up their minds. :D
Huh? [ looks around ]

Me??? :eek:

Huh? [ looks around ]

Me??? :eek:

Lol ... no ... in referrence to the OP and the pics of the multi-verse altar. Seems more like someone's hedging their bets. I like it!

Allah, is simpy Arabic for God. Mohammed did not claim to be nor did Jesus. This is where the misconception is arising. Jesus, Mohammed and all the other divine Manifestions of God were the representives of God on earth, not God come down to earth.

The believe that Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and many others are somehow different and brought different religions is the reason that there is some much religious intolerance amoung "religious" people. It is, however, not what the the Prophets or Manifestions of these religions taught.

If you are sick and tired of religious bigots out to prove that one "faith" is better than another "faith" then maybe it's time you stopped reading those threads...

The worldview that says all religions are equally valid is the one that says they are all equally wrong. You cannot at the same time believe that Allah is the one true God and that there are many Hindu gods. It simply doesn't work. It is however entirely possible to respect people of other faiths without accepting their beliefs.

So what if they're all different aspects of one thing? If you look at the top of your head, does that mean you have to reject the bottom of your feet?

:)


I don't know when the definition of tolerance suddenly changed. I find more and more lately that I am being called intolerant because of my religion. I can tolerate other religions, I can respect another's right to be a different religion than mine. I have the right to believe that they are wrong, very wrong. I even have the right to let them know that I believe that they are wrong, just like they have the right to let me know that they believe I am wrong, and I suppose they even have the right to call me a bigot. I really wish people wouldn't call me names though, just for practicing my religion, that sounds intolerant to me.

The fact that you think they're wrong when you have no evidence that you or they are anymore correct makes you a bigot. Unless you can factually prove correctness, then your very belief makes you a bigot, every bit as much as people who believe that one race is superior to another without any factual evidence to back them up.

And since your religion is supposed to be based on faith, not facts, then to even make this claim would also go against the basis of the religion itself.

Lol ... no ... in referrence to the OP and the pics of the multi-verse altar. Seems more like someone's hedging their bets. I like it!

Their belief, again, is that all these deities and what have you are just different appearances of the same thing. If you dress up as a pirate for Halloween or wear a tuxedo to the prom, it's just clothes. One wears the appropraite clothes for the appropriate occasion. It has nothing to do with not having made up their minds... far from it.

The fact that you think they're wrong when you have no evidence that you or they are anymore correct makes you a bigot. Unless you can factually prove correctness, then your very belief makes you a bigot, every bit as much as people who believe that one race is superior to another without any factual evidence to back them up.

And since your religion is supposed to be based on faith, not facts, then to even make this claim would also go against the basis of the religion itself.
Au contraire, mon fraire! Belief does not automatically a bigot make! :p

Lol ... no ... in referrence to the OP and the pics of the multi-verse altar. Seems more like someone's hedging their bets. I like it!
Whew! [ looks relieved ] Thought you were cappin' down on mah azz for a moment there! :D

The worldview that says all religions are equally valid is the one that says they are all equally wrong. You cannot at the same time believe that Allah is the one true God and that there are many Hindu gods. It simply doesn't work. It is however entirely possible to respect people of other faiths without accepting their beliefs.
^This person speaks the truth.

It cracks me up, how people often think that they've found 'the' answer, that the obvious way to solve the problems of religious disagreement is to just accept them all. Shows how little that person has looked into the religions themselves. Accepting the people is one thing, and if you think that your friends in that isolated temple are the only ones who do that, you've got one hell of a skewed perspective. Accepting the religions, on the other hand, is a totally different story.

edit: and since when do you have to have something down to facts to believe someone else is wrong? It's cute to see you making up your own rules, venezuela. Seems to me the only person who's intolerant here is you. If some time in the future, thinking someone is wrong suddenly means thinking someone is worth less than a person, then you'll have a point. But until then, you're just spewing a bunch of uninformed nonsense.

Au contraire, mon fraire! Belief does not automatically a bigot make! :p

Belief in one's supriority, in one's correctness over another, does, however. For someone to say, "I'm right, you're wrong" about one particular religion over another is just such a situation, especially when their knowledge even about the tenets of the other religion are incomplete, or even lacking entirely.

Unless, of course, there is objective proof (factual, in other words), in which case such evidence must be evaluated on a completely factual, objective, and reliable basis that holds up OUTSIDE of the tenets of ANY particular religion.

Otherwise, yes, it's just a form of bigotry.

^This person speaks the truth.

It cracks me up, how people often think that they've found 'the' answer, that the obvious way to solve the problems of religious disagreement is to just accept them all. Shows how little that person has looked into the religions themselves. Accepting the people is one thing, and if you think that your friends in that isolated temple are the only ones who do that, you've got one hell of a skewed perspective. Accepting the religions, on the other hand, is a totally different story.


No, the solution to religious disagreement is to realize that any particular religion is a cultural construct that explains things in terms of only one small group of people at one particular time.

How little I've looked into the religions? You mean the thirty or so years I spent with it? I dare say I've looked into this stuff more broadly and deeply than 99% of the people in these forums.

And those people LIVE by this. When they have celebrations, everyone is invited, and everyone participates. They see religions as different aspects of the same thing... and interestingly enough, they HAVE solved the problem of religious disagreement. They live quite peacefully with others who follow everything from Islam to Orisha. They don't reject any of it.

Their belief, again, is that all these deities and what have you are just different appearances of the same thing. If you dress up as a pirate for Halloween or wear a tuxedo to the prom, it's just clothes. One wears the appropraite clothes for the appropriate occasion. It has nothing to do with not having made up their minds... far from it.

You'd think someone like yourself whose mind has been opened would have a better sense of humor.

Smile ... it's Festivus!

So many different opiates, which to choose...

The fact that you think they're wrong when you have no evidence that you or they are anymore correct makes you a bigot. Unless you can factually prove correctness, then your very belief makes you a bigot, every bit as much as people who believe that one race is superior to another without any factual evidence to back them up.
nobody has any factual evidence to back up their beliefs, not even athiests. So, in your world veiw everyone is a bigot. It would be sad to live in your world.


And since your religion is supposed to be based on faith, not facts, then to even make this claim would also go against the basis of the religion itself.
tell me, then, what is the basis of my religion?

No, the solution to religious disagreement is to realize that any particular religion is a cultural construct that explains things in terms of only one small group of people at one particular time.

How little I've looked into the religions? You mean the thirty or so years I spent with it? I dare say I've looked into this stuff more broadly and deeply than 99% of the people in these forums.

And those people LIVE by this. When they have celebrations, everyone is invited, and everyone participates. They see religions as different aspects of the same thing... and interestingly enough, they HAVE solved the problem of religious disagreement. They live quite peacefully with others who follow everything from Islam to Orisha. They don't reject any of it.
If you had studied religions for that long from a neutral perspective, then you wouldn't sound so painfully uninformed, with this naive belief that you've come across some brilliant revelation that so many people haven't thought of for all this time. Give me a break. Living together in peace is different from accepting everyone else's beliefs, just like believing that someone is wrong is different from thinking of them as having less worth as a person. Your argument is about as solid as a slice of swiss cheese, and it's because of all these silly assumptions it rests upon. Does it make me a racist if I think that my friend is wrong because he thinks Greek food is better than Mexican food? I mean, I can't factually prove it, but I think that Mexican food beats the hell out of Greek food. Maybe we're both just biased, because I'm hispanic and he's greek, but it's what I believe. So that makes me a big, fat, racist.. a bigot, doesn't it? Please. Get over yourself.

Belief in one's supriority, in one's correctness over another, does, however. For someone to say, "I'm right, you're wrong" about one particular religion over another is just such a situation, especially when their knowledge even about the tenets of the other religion are incomplete, or even lacking entirely.

Unless, of course, there is objective proof (factual, in other words), in which case such evidence must be evaluated on a completely factual, objective, and reliable basis that holds up OUTSIDE of the tenets of ANY particular religion.

Otherwise, yes, it's just a form of bigotry.
Obviously, I disagree, but I promise to not confuse you. Meh. :p

So many different opiates, which to choose...

Stick with the heroine ... in the long run, it's better for you.

I quite like religious bigots. They give me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

No, the solution to religious disagreement is to realize that any particular religion is a cultural construct that explains things in terms of only one small group of people at one particular time.

How little I've looked into the religions? You mean the thirty or so years I spent with it? I dare say I've looked into this stuff more broadly and deeply than 99% of the people in these forums.

And those people LIVE by this. When they have celebrations, everyone is invited, and everyone participates. They see religions as different aspects of the same thing... and interestingly enough, they HAVE solved the problem of religious disagreement. They live quite peacefully with others who follow everything from Islam to Orisha. They don't reject any of it.

Sounds...nice. They accept all contradictory forms of religion, and all the contradictory gods, and all the contradictory ways to god, and all is well for them.

Well, as far as what you call factual proof, it will only come when one passes out of this world and into the next. But then, of course, it may be too late to change one's mind and choose the truth.

Each of us must come to a conclusion about this issue, whether we do it consciously or by default. As far as "there can be only one," that is correct.

Insofar as reality is involved, if there is a god or gods, if there is really a heaven and hell or hells, then there can be only one reality.

God is all, or many, or one. There are many ways to God or only one. And if there is only one, we have to find the one that is true, not the one that is comfortable, or fits our culture, or anything else.

As for me, I have found the God of the Bible to be real and true. I have found much evidence in his favor, as well as personal experience and logic.

I realize that accepting one God means rejecting the others, and that some people feel bad about rejecting others, or making others' beliefs seem less than correct. Some people will end up in hell because they are so worried about offending or hurting others, that they will fail to see the truth that offends them.

On the other hand, by way of analogy, if there is a sinking ship, and only one of the lifeboats is seaworthy, telling people to get into the one seaworthy lifeboat may hurt their feelings, because after all, they were about to get in that one over there with a small hole in the bottom, and that calls into question their judgement, and may offend them, but calling them over to the one seaworthy lifeboat is the rightthing to do.

Letting them get in a boat that will sink and let them drown may be a form of "tolerance" or "respect" that you can live with, but it is not the right thing to do. Finding the one seaworthy lifeboat and directing people into it is the right thing to do. Ignoring hurt feelings and offended faces in order to save as many people as possible is the right thing to do. Crying over those who refuse to get into the correct lifeboat may be all you can do, once you have pointed out the correct lifeboat, but that may be all that you can do. And not getting into the one seaworthy lifeboat when there is plenty of room for you will not save any of the offended people who got into the boat with the hole, it will just add to their number.

So please, everyone, on this Christmas week, come to the only Savior, Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus died for you, so that you can come into His kingdom. His kingdom is not of this world. Put your life in His hands. He is love, and will not hurt you. He will welcome you into His father's house. And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

God Bless everyone, and by bless, I mean reveal the truth to all, before it's too late.

Merry Christmas!:D

Isn't there really only one God, one Creator.

Given the available evidence, it's unlikely there are any gods.

I quite like religious bigots. They give me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

Me too, you damned fag whore lesbian communist nazi satanist jew penguin! U iz goin 2 teh H3LL!!!11!!1!!!!!7!!!!!!1111!!goat

So please, everyone, on this Christmas week, come to the only Savior, Jesus Christ.

Pfft.

Only ...

Whatever.

Happy Chanukkah!

Given the available evidence, it's unlikely there are any gods.

If you talking about proof from a scientific point of view, then I suppose tht is correct. Now if we leave the need for "proof in a test tube" kinda proof then may statement is correct. At least according to the religions that are disagreeing with each other.

Given the available evidence, it's unlikely there are any gods.
You can't assign any degree of likelihood or lack thereof to something immeasurable like that.

it's truly sad how this season seems to bring out the worst in many christians. "war on christmas", anyone? 'nuff said.

but this gives me hope in religion, honestly. i believe that it must be much easier for a religion to remain pure when it is small and not as commercialized and massive and twisted and political as the christian church is in america.

Allah, is simpy Arabic for God. Mohammed did not claim to be nor did Jesus. This is where the misconception is arising. Jesus, Mohammed and all the other divine Manifestions of God were the representives of God on earth, not God come down to earth.

Yes Jesus did claim to be God:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)
"I am" is what God told Abraham to give as His name to the people of Israel. This would not have been lost on the writers of the gospels. They knew their OT.

Yes Jesus did claim to be God:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)
"I am" is what God told Abraham to give as His name to the people of Israel. This would not have been lost on the writers of the gospels. They knew their OT.

Another way to view this quote is that Jesus was claiming to be the Mouthpiece of God on earth. To think that God came down and walked on earth seems ridiculous to say the least. Jesus' comment can be thought of as His way of saying that each of the Prohpets sent by God fulfilled the same purpose. They were each sent by God at a different time, to a different people and culture but with the same purpose.

Another way to view this quote is that Jesus was claiming to be the Mouthpiece of God on earth. To think that God came down and walked on earth seems ridiculous to say the least. Jesus' comment can be thought of as His way of saying that each of the Prohpets sent by God fulfilled the same purpose. They were each sent by God at a different time, to a different people and culture but with the same purpose.

Jesus also said that he had the right to forgive sins, which is a right only claimed by God.

To take his constant proclamations of his Godhood as anything else is to read into the text something not in evidence.

Jesus kept saying, over and over, "I am", and they kept taking up stones to stone him. His contemporary listeners understood what he was saying, and thought the same as you, that God would not be walking around on earth, ridiculous, stone this guy!

But it happened. And that is why we are still talking about him, and some are living for him, 2000 years later.

God is all, or many, or one. There are many ways to God or only one. And if there is only one, we have to find the one that is true, not the one that is comfortable, or fits our culture, or anything else.

I realize that accepting one God means rejecting the others, and that some people feel bad about rejecting others, or making others' beliefs seem less than correct. Some people will end up in hell because they are so worried about offending or hurting others, that they will fail to see the truth that offends them.

One does not have to reject to accept.



These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers." For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Imam 'Ali. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all."

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established....

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."

It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.

(Compilations, Baha'i World Faith, p. 21)

Another way to view this quote is that Jesus was claiming to be the Mouthpiece of God on earth. To think that God came down and walked on earth seems ridiculous to say the least. Jesus' comment can be thought of as His way of saying that each of the Prohpets sent by God fulfilled the same purpose. They were each sent by God at a different time, to a different people and culture but with the same purpose.

Interesting. I see your point and much as I'd like to I can't logically refute it. Seems odd that he didn't identify himself more with Abraham and say "I am sent me" though :confused: .

Hang on, if there's one God entity or something revealing him/her/it/theirself in different ways to different people, and he/she/it/they want us to get together and accept each other's differing beliefs as all true then why hasn't he/she/it/they actually told that to any of the various prophets to the major religions over the centuries :confused: :confused: :confused:

And do I also have to accept the atheists' viewpoint along with my one and multifaceted god(s)?

Hang on, if there's one God entity or something revealing him/her/it/theirself in different ways to different people, and he/she/it/they want us to get together and accept each other's differing beliefs as all true then why hasn't he/she/it/they actually told that to any of the various prophets to the major religions over the centuries :confused: :confused: :confused:

And do I also have to accept the atheists' viewpoint along with my one and multifaceted god(s)?

Maybe it did, but the mortal prophets were all so egotistical and had so much ambition to create cults around themselves, they conveniently forgot to pass it along to the plebs?

As for atheists.. meh, who knows? Maybe, if people are (apparently) created in God's image, humanism is a path to the divine too.

Maybe it did, but the mortal prophets were all so egotistical and had so much ambition to create cults around themselves, they conveniently forgot to pass it along to the plebs.

As for atheists.. meh, who knows? Maybe, if people are (apparently) created in God's image, humanism is a path to the divine too.

So the prophet who first reveals this would in fact be the greatest of all. ALL HAIL McVENEZUELA!!!

So the prophet who first reveals this would in fact be the greatest of all. ALL HAIL McVENEZUELA!!!

Maybe! But I'm a polytheist, so I'm skeptical of the "All gods are One God, it's all the same Divine" thing.

Sounds...nice. They accept all contradictory forms of religion, and all the contradictory gods, and all the contradictory ways to god, and all is well for them.
<snip>
Merry Christmas!:D

I try to avoid getting into religious debates, simply because people are so fanatically certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. This calls into debate the nature of God(or gods, for all you polytheists out there) Since more people are monotheistic than polytheistic, I will use that tone to speak in. It is my belief that God wants everyone to come to him, regardless of how. First, he made a covenant with the Jews - "You do what I say, and you will be my chosen people" Now that didn't include everyone, so he sends Jesus to go pick up stragglers - "Believe in me and I will bring you to heaven with me" This didn't convince everyone, so Mohammed(I am perfectly aware that there are multiple spellings of this, it's a transliteration of Arabic, and I don't have that font on my computer) comes along and picks up some more people "Live this way and God will be pleased with you and take you up to heaven". That's one way to look at things, taking God as a compassionate being that wants everyone to be in heaven. There is another way to look at them though. You can choose to believe that God wants everyone to be one way, and to hell(literally) with anyone who doesn't believe in the path that has been set down(and then camoflaged, with nothing more than circular arguments stating which way is the TRUE way) As a friend of mine in the army said, "God should judge you based on how you live. Any god who doesn't is an ass not worth following." Believe what you like, but I like to believe that a being that would go to the trouble of creating the human race and then giving them FREE WILL of all things wouldn't be in such a rush to damn everyone to hell.

Maybe! But I'm a polytheist, so I'm skeptical of the "All gods are One God, it's all the same Divine" thing.

Great! I'm a monotheist. Interesting that we should find agreement by together being skeptical of the theology that says we should agree...

Great! I'm a monotheist. Interesting that we should find agreement by together being skeptical of the theology that says we should agree...

The world of NS General can be a cuh-razy place, sure enough. :p

So, monotheist, eh? Any particular brand of monotheism or self-realised?

I try to avoid getting into religious debates, simply because people are so fanatically certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. This calls into debate the nature of God(or gods, for all you polytheists out there) Since more people are monotheistic than polytheistic, I will use that tone to speak in. It is my belief that God wants everyone to come to him, regardless of how. First, he made a covenant with the Jews - "You do what I say, and you will be my chosen people" Now that didn't include everyone, so he sends Jesus to go pick up stragglers - "Believe in me and I will bring you to heaven with me" This didn't convince everyone, so Mohammed(I am perfectly aware that there are multiple spellings of this, it's a transliteration of Arabic, and I don't have that font on my computer) comes along and picks up some more people "Live this way and God will be pleased with you and take you up to heaven". That's one way to look at things, taking God as a compassionate being that wants everyone to be in heaven. There is another way to look at them though. You can choose to believe that God wants everyone to be one way, and to hell(literally) with anyone who doesn't believe in the path that has been set down(and then camoflaged, with nothing more than circular arguments stating which way is the TRUE way) As a friend of mine in the army said, "God should judge you based on how you live. Any god who doesn't is an ass not worth following." Believe what you like, but I like to believe that a being that would go to the trouble of creating the human race and then giving them FREE WILL of all things wouldn't be in such a rush to damn everyone to hell.

Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me". To me this is a pretty clear claim that Christ is the only true way. That doesn't mean I believe that people who follow other religions will go to hell. Some christians do believe that. One preacher I heard said that it's Jesus that "opened the door" so only followers of Jesus can be saved. I thought, "fine. But do you have to know who opened a door in order to walk through it?" Conversely I don't believe that all people of all religions will be saved. That is between them and God and I have no right to decide. I believe that getting to know Jesus is the only sure way to be saved. I guess that probably makes me a bigot.

The world of NS General can be a cuh-razy place, sure enough. :p

So, monotheist, eh? Any particular brand of monotheism or self-realised?

Christian bigot. See above.

The fact that you think they're wrong when you have no evidence that you or they are anymore correct makes you a bigot. Unless you can factually prove correctness, then your very belief makes you a bigot, every bit as much as people who believe that one race is superior to another without any factual evidence to back them up.

And since your religion is supposed to be based on faith, not facts, then to even make this claim would also go against the basis of the religion itself.

Which means that anyone who believes in a religion is a bigot.

Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me". To me this is a pretty clear claim that Christ is the only true way. That doesn't mean I believe that people who follow other religions will go to hell. Some christians do believe that. One preacher I heard said that it's Jesus that "opened the door" so only followers of Jesus can be saved. I thought, "fine. But do you have to know who opened a door in order to walk through it?" Conversely I don't believe that all people of all religions will be saved. That is between them and God and I have no right to decide. I believe that getting to know Jesus is the only sure way to be saved. I guess that probably makes me a bigot.

By McVenezuela's definition, you are.

Oh, and you're nothing compared to me: I'm a Calvinist, I believe in predestination, and anyone not pre-selected goes to hell. I'm the most evil of them all. :)

By McVenezuela's definition, you are.

Oh, and you're nothing compared to me: I'm a Calvinist, I believe in predestination, and anyone not pre-selected goes to hell. I'm the most evil of them all. :)

Cool! I went to a seminar about predestination once and didn't understand it. I decided that if it was true then there's nothing I can do about it so I may as well hedge my bets, assume it's not and do my best.

Which means that anyone who believes in a religion is a bigot.

Which in turn means that McVenezuela and Goodthoughts think everyone is WRONG! So who's the bigot again?

Christian bigot. See above.

Ahh, so I see.

Oh, and you're nothing compared to me: I'm a Calvinist, I believe in predestination, and anyone not pre-selected goes to hell. I'm the most evil of them all. :)

Oh, a Calvinist! You guys rock. I love your fire and brimstone ;)

You people are all frickin' hippie retards (sorry, but I had to say it). May logic smile upon you in the future.:( I realise that there are a lot of intollerant bitches out there. But gosh, just leave the subject alone! Whiny forum posts won't can't change that. Buck up.

You people are all frickin' hippie retards (sorry, but I had to say it). May logic smile upon you in the future.:( I realise that there are a lot of intollerant bitches out there. But gosh, just leave the subject alone! Whiny forum posts won't can't change that. Buck up.

Sorry, I thought we were having a fairly intelligent discussion and forging religious unity (well, almost). Logic to me dictates that if you don't want to read religious discussion then don't click on a link that says "religion" or "religious".

You people are all frickin' hippie retards (sorry, but I had to say it). May logic smile upon you in the future.:( I realise that there are a lot of intollerant bitches out there. But gosh, just leave the subject alone! Whiny forum posts won't can't change that. Buck up.

Okay.

But... you know this a discussion forum, right? And you know what we do on discussion forums? Yep, that's right: we discuss things. Sometimes... we even debate things! I would say such a place is the perfect environment for the Whiney Forum Post Beast to live and flourish and facilitate discussion and debate. Would you not?

Oh, a Calvinist! You guys rock. I love your fire and brimstone ;)

Hey, it's our specialty. I've got a friend who's mastered the Fire and Brimstone speech to a T. It's quite elegant. :D

You people are all frickin' hippie retards (sorry, but I had to say it). May logic smile upon you in the future.:( I realise that there are a lot of intollerant bitches out there. But gosh, just leave the subject alone! Whiny forum posts won't can't change that. Buck up.

Thanks for that wonderfully educated, informative, and mature post!

Hey, it's our specialty. I've got a friend who's mastered the Fire and Brimstone speech to a T. It's quite elegant. :D

I encountered my first real, live Calvinist recently, in fact. I was visiting the "Church of the Living Water" to see what they're all about. They seemed to be fairly standard, non-specific Christians to me, but there's probably something sinister behind. A Lovecraftian evil fish god, perhaps, but I disgress. There was a Calvinist there as well, who I was introduced to (I was introduced as "the young man who is still on the road to finding Christ", pffft!), and he seemed nice enough, which was actually a little disappointing. I was expected an 8 foot tall, bile-spitting, fire-breathing monster from all I'd been told of Calvinists. I didn't get a fire and brimstone speech! :(

Ahhh, maybe next time.

Which in turn means that McVenezuela and Goodthoughts think everyone is WRONG! So who's the bigot again?

Now, now don't put words in my mouth, please. I can't speak for McVenezuela, but I don't think it is a question of right or wrong; instead it can be considered as different points of understanding.

If you're as sick and tired of religious bigots out to prove that one "faith" is better than another "faith" and that their god can beat up everybody else's god, then look below.

I'm not nearly as tired of that as I am bigots who attack religion.

In fact, there is a worldview out there which states that ALL religions are equally valid and that each one can give what is needed to be given for a particular people in a particular time and place.

Heh, than everyone's going to hell. If you assume an unbiased, any-and-all religions are valid attitude, than all people go to hell, because everyone is violating at least one religion. Which leads to something amusing I found...

<lib1790> so, at this college there was an extra credit question "Is hell endothermic or exothermic"
<lib1790> this is what one kid wrote:
<lib1790> First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass.
If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
<lib1790>As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since, there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.
<lib1790> Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant.
<lib1790>So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose (i.e.,Hell is exothermic).
<liv1790>Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over (i.e.,Hell is endothermic).
<lib1790>So which is it? If we accept the postulate given by Ms.Therese Banyan during my freshman year, "That it will be a cold night in hell before I go out with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having a relationship with her, the second case cannot be true. Therefore, hell is exothermic.
<lib1790> the kid was the only one who got credit

Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me". To me this is a pretty clear claim that Christ is the only true way. That doesn't mean I believe that people who follow other religions will go to hell. Some christians do believe that. One preacher I heard said that it's Jesus that "opened the door" so only followers of Jesus can be saved. I thought, "fine. But do you have to know who opened a door in order to walk through it?" Conversely I don't believe that all people of all religions will be saved. That is between them and God and I have no right to decide. I believe that getting to know Jesus is the only sure way to be saved. I guess that probably makes me a bigot.

As you said, it's only a claim. It's far from being a proven fact. I personally believe that thinking that something admittedly written by men to be the "Word of God" is kind of silly, but that's just me. The only thing that is even claimed to be written by God is the Ten Commandments, and I'd have to see the original tablets to form an opinion on the veracity of that claim.

Thanks for that wonderfully educated, informative, and mature post!

At least it was free of negtive stereotype terms like so many posts are on sites like this.

I encountered my first real, live Calvinist recently, in fact. I was visiting the "Church of the Living Water" to see what they're all about. They seemed to be fairly standard, non-specific Christians to me, but there's probably something sinister behind. A Lovecraftian evil fish god, perhaps, but I disgress. There was a Calvinist there as well, who I was introduced to (I was introduced as "the young man who is still on the road to finding Christ", pffft!), and he seemed nice enough, which was actually a little disappointing. I was expected an 8 foot tall, bile-spitting, fire-breathing monster from all I'd been told of Calvinists. I didn't get a fire and brimstone speech! :(

Ahhh, maybe next time.

Well, he was testing you, first. See, all of us Calvinists can transform into large dragons, and we all carry large swords made by God to strike down unbelievers when they dodge the fire and brimstone we breathe out.

But that's only when we're in Crusader mode. Default mode is the one you saw -- typical human being. We have other transformations, too, but you can only know that if you're a Calvinist. :p

At least it was free of negtive stereotype terms like so many posts are on sites like this.

That's true. And if you're reffering to my posts, the only people I made fun of were Calvinists, and I am one, so that doesn't count.

Well, he was testing you, first. See, all of us Calvinists can transform into large dragons, and we all carry large swords made by God to strike down unbelievers when they dodge the fire and brimstone we breathe out.

But that's only when we're in Crusader mode. Default mode is the one you saw -- typical human being. We have other transformations, too, but you can only know that if you're a Calvinist. :p

Roman Catholics and Baptists are capable of similar transformations. Although the RC's replace the brimestone with insense, and pedophilia instead of fireballs.

That's true. And if you're reffering to my posts, the only people I made fun of were Calvinists, and I am one, so that doesn't count.

I wasn't trying to point to any one in this forum. I ment it as a general statement about the quality of posts often found on sites such as this.

Hmph idea been around for ages. This though is possibly the first orgaised approach of it though

http://www.religioustolerance.org/caodaism.htm

Note though the religion is run by the vietnamise government... but oh well.

we are all predestined. But because we do not know our predestined fate, it really means jack- we all have freedom of choice in our lives.

If anyone has a broblem with cracks on Baptists and Catholics, oops. Growing up with both in a house tested my Lutheran tolerance and basic good nature.

Hey, it's our specialty. I've got a friend who's mastered the Fire and Brimstone speech to a T. It's quite elegant. :D

why would calvinists preach hellfire and brimstone?

isnt that kinda like rubbing salt into the wounds of those who are damned to that very hell no matter what their good works or acceptance of jesus christ as their personal lord and savior?

Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me". To me this is a pretty clear claim that Christ is the only true way. That doesn't mean I believe that people who follow other religions will go to hell. Some christians do believe that. One preacher I heard said that it's Jesus that "opened the door" so only followers of Jesus can be saved. I thought, "fine. But do you have to know who opened a door in order to walk through it?" Conversely I don't believe that all people of all religions will be saved. That is between them and God and I have no right to decide. I believe that getting to know Jesus is the only sure way to be saved. I guess that probably makes me a bigot.

To me, it's pretty clear that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. If everyone were trying to reach the Father, then they would be unfortunate to go about it differently. Moslems are not interested in getting to the Father. They are more interested in following Allah. Any number of believers of other religions are interested in following their own deities, so they are not interested in getting to the Father either.

When one posesses a precious jewel, there is a tendency to think that it is so precious that it would not be possible for anyone else to have something so valuable. There are other such jewels. Many of them. Regardless of that, it does not make the precious jewel one posesses to be any less prized.

Allah, is simpy Arabic for God. Mohammed did not claim to be nor did Jesus. This is where the misconception is arising. Jesus, Mohammed and all the other divine Manifestions of God were the representives of God on earth, not God come down to earth.

The believe that Jesus, Moses, Mohammed and many others are somehow different and brought different religions is the reason that there is some much religious intolerance amoung "religious" people. It is, however, not what the the Prophets or Manifestions of these religions taught.

I disagree, but respect your opinion. I believe Jesus did claim to be God.

"Reference Section 2: Verses Showing Jesus is God
Back



(This section provides an in-depth study of verses showing Jesus is God)

Others viewed Jesus as God

1 Timothy 3:16 -Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God.
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
"…Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Titus 2:13 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ."

Luke 8:39 -After Jesus healed a demon possessed man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."

Rom. 14:10b -12 -Paul uses the words Jesus and God interchangeably.
"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

Luke 8:39 -After Jesus healed a demon possessed man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."

Phil. 2:5b, 6 -Paul said Jesus was God.
"… Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."





The people around Jesus understood Jesus was claiming to be God

John 10:33 -The Jews felt Jesus was claiming to be God.
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 5:18 -The Jews felt Jesus was making himself equal with God.
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."





Jesus claimed to be God

John 10:30 - Jesus said He was part of God. He said, "I and my Father are one."
Exodus 3:14 -God identifies Himself to Moses by calling himself "I AM." Twice Jesus refers to Himself as the "I AM." Those around him knew exactly what he was saying and they were greatly offended.
"Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say you, before Abraham was, I am. Then they took up stones to cast at him …" (John 8:58, 59a)

"Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them I am he. As soon as he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." (John 18:4b, 5, 6)

[Note: In the Bible, the word "he" is in italic. Whenever a word was not in the original Greek or Hebrew, but was put in for clarity, the King James translators put the word in italic. This was done so there would be no misunderstanding about what was and was not part of the original text]

Revelation 1:8 -18 -Jesus said, he is the Almighty Lord. The following is a vision John had of Jesus. Verses 2, 13, 17,18 identify Jesus as the:
(v 2) "… testimony of Jesus Christ …"

(v 8) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

(v 11) "Saying I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last…"

(v 13) "And in the midst of the seven lamp stands, one like the Son of man …"

(v 17b. 18a) "Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth and was dead…"

Isaiah 44:6 -In Rev 1:11, Jesus says He is the first and the last. Isa. 44:6 shows that the one who is "first and the last is actually God. "Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the Lord of host: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is not God."




The Bible says Jesus is God

Hebrews 1:8 -God the Father said Jesus was God.
"Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom."

Isaiah 9:6 -Jesus (the Messiah) is called the Mighty God.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 -Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us."

Micah 5:2 -Jesus (the Messiah) is everlasting.
"But thou, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Zechariah 12:10 -God uses the first person (“me”) and the third person (“him”) to describe Himself as the one who will be pierced.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 1:1 -Jesus (the "Word") is God
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches …"

Every knee will bow to both God and Jesus. Here are verses talking about every knee bowing to God.
"Look unto me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God and there is none else. … that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isaiah 45:22,23b)

Here are verses talking every knee bowing to Jesus.
"… stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:10b, 11)

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Philippians 2:10a,11a)

John 5:23 -We have to honor Jesus that same way as God the Father.
"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent him."

Both God and Jesus are called our "Savior." Here are verses calling God our savior.
"… I am He, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:10b, 11)

"… And there is no God else beside me, a just God and Savior; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21b)

Here are verses calling Jesus our savior.
Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"But hath in due time manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God, our Savior;" (Titus 1:3)

"Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior, in all things." (Titus 2:10)

"But after the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man appeared." (Titus 3:4)

"To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior." (Titus 1:4)

"Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior," (Titus 3:6)

Both God and Jesus created all things. Here are verses that say God created all things
"Ah, Lord God! Behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by Thy great power and outstretched arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: … the Great, the Mighty God, the Lord of hosts, is his name," l (Jeremiah 32:17, 18b)

Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10b)

"Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he who formed thee from the womb: I am the Lord who maketh all things; who stretcheth forth the heavens alone; who spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." (Isaiah 44:24)

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the worlds of thine hand." (Hebrews 1:10)

Here are verses that say Jesus created all things
"… Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. …Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they were created." (Revelation 4:8b, 11)

"All things were made by him (Jesus), and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:3)

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers - all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col. 1:15, 16)

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:2)

Both God and Jesus raised Jesus from the dead. Here are verses that say God raised Jesus from the dead.
"And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thes. 1:10)

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11)

Here are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
" Jesus answered, and said unto them Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)

"Therefore doeth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." (John 10:17, 18a)
"
http://www.biblehelp.org/reference_2.htm


The reason there is much religious intolerance in the world is because many act in the name of Jesus Christ, but few act according to his teachings.

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We[a] exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered[b] them, and prevailed against them,[c] so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Acts 19:13-16

Acts shows us that envoking the name of Christ without faith has no authority.

"18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

JAMES 2:18-20

James teaches that faith without works is dead.

A "christian" who is intolerant of other religions and acts without love is simply displaying that he has no faith, and due to his lack of faith he is acting without the authority of Christ.

I'm sorry that so many of you have experinced so-called Christians and ask you to look at Jesus as the example of a Christian and keep in mind that true followers of Christ strive to act as he did.

Merry Christmas,

Donny

<SNIP>

I am not reading all of that.

-Summary- Jesus did claim to be Christ, and "Christians" show that they are christians by love and therefore tolerance, and those who do not demonstrate their faith by their actions are not representing Christ.

-Summary- Jesus did claim to be Christ, and "Christians" show that they are christians by love and therefore tolerance, and those who do not demonstrate their faith by their actions are not representing Christ.
Fair enough. Thank you. Faith is indeed about action. Without faith, there could be no action.

I would be careful about tolerance though. Tolerating someone is not the same as loving them. Thomas Paine said it best: "Tolerance is not the opposite of intolerance, but the counterfeit of it."

Dear Donny,

I did not read the your whole post. I am sure I have read the quoutes many times before. Let me just say that if God came down to earth and walked around with don't you think it would be impossible for anyone to not realise who He was? I mean really the Creator of all things, the whole universe, everything takes on a human form and we can't see that there is something very different about this being. It doesn't seem possible to me. So then the quotes you shared must have some other meaning. And that would be very simply that God sent Jesus to be His representive on earth. Jesus used language that people of two thousand years ago would understand to explain to them who He is. People being who they are misinterpet the meaning of Christ's words almost immediately. Thus the confusion that exists today.

What all of this means to me is that Christ stated that He spoke for God. He was God's Mouthpiece. There were others like Him in the past and there would be others after Him.

Fair enough. Thank you. Faith is indeed about action. Without faith, there could be no action.

I would be careful about tolerance though. Tolerating someone is not the same as loving them. Thomas Paine said it best: "Tolerance is not the opposite of intolerance, but the counterfeit of it."

I agree. For example: If my neighbor hated me, he might still tolerate my existence, or he might love me and for my benefit not tolerate behaviors which might be destructive.

Thank you for the correction.

However,

52And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them[a]?" 55But Jesus turned and rebuked them, 56and[b] they went to another village.

Luke 9:52-56

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Romans 2:1-4

I believe that Jesus through example, and through the word of his disciples demonstrate how our actions should be towards those who are not of us.

Dear Donny,

I did not read the your whole post. I am sure I have read the quoutes many times before. Let me just say that if God came down to earth and walked around with don't you think it would be impossible for anyone to not realise who He was? I mean really the Creator of all things, the whole universe, everything takes on a human form and we can't see that there is something very different about this being. It doesn't seem possible to me. So then the quotes you shared must have some other meaning. And that would be very simply that God sent Jesus to be His representive on earth. Jesus used language that people of two thousand years ago would understand to explain to them who He is. People being who they are misinterpet the meaning of Christ's words almost immediately. Thus the confusion that exists today.

What all of this means to me is that Christ stated that He spoke for God. He was God's Mouthpiece. There were others like Him in the past and there would be others after Him.

"So then the quotes you shared must have some other meaning."

The main source (although not the only one) of information concerning Jesus is the bible and therefore I base my belief off of what the bible teaches. From what it seems, your basing your understanding of the bible off of your own understanding and completely discarding the the verses which contradict your beliefs.

"I mean really the Creator of all things, the whole universe, everything takes on a human form and we can't see that there is something very different about this being."

Assuming you have prior knowledge of the bible, the reason almost two billion people believe Jesus is God IS because there was something different about him. The scriptures point to Jesus's perfection and uter lack of sin, and at the same time speak of humanities inperfection and sinful nature.

(Romans 3:23) - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

1 Peter 2:21-22: "...because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth."

So, Romans teaches that all except God have sinned, and 1 Peter teaches that Jesus did not sin.

Either way, your welcome to believe as you will, my point here is just to show biblical evidence showing otherwise.

Without faith, there could be no action.

Of almost all claims espoused by the religious, this is one of the ones that pisses me off most, along with the similar claim that one can only be moral based upon religious faith.

How depressing, misanthropistic, and self-hating a belief is that? People can't be good and do good things except out of fear of hell and abased obedience to some divine entity? Believe it or not, atheists can be at least as moral as humans, and are at least as capable of 'action'. I myself am an atheist, and am more truly moral than many religious people I know. Morals can come from reason and rational thought as well as, or probably better than, myth-filled books, preachy exhortations, and irrational, conformistic, arbitrary, multi-millenia-old, fear-and-shame-empowered codes of behavior.

Of almost all claims espoused by the religious, this is one of the ones that pisses me off most, along with the similar claim that one can only be moral based upon religious faith.

How depressing, misanthropistic, and self-hating a belief is that? People can't be good and do good things except out of fear of hell and abased obedience to some divine entity? Believe it or not, atheists can be at least as moral as humans, and are at least as capable of 'action'. I myself am an atheist, and am more truly moral than many religious people I know. Morals can come from reason and rational thought as well as, or probably better than, myth-filled books, preachy exhortations, and irrational, conformistic, arbitrary, multi-millenia-old, fear-and-shame-empowered codes of behavior.

To one degree or another every decision comes down to faith. Not necessarily faith in God, but faith in the source of the information your acting upon, or faith in the basis of "morality" or better yet faith in the result of your action. You might argue that your actions are based upon careful obeservation and though, but at one level or another it comes down to faith.
To act without faith, one would be have to have a 100% reliable proof. In order to find a fact which is 100% true, one would have to find out the reliability of that truth, then find out the reliabilty of the reliablity and so on, for an unlimited number.

For example, I believe the sun is a ball of gas.
I believe my informants know what they are talking about.
I believe the resources my informants used are reliable
I believe no mistakes were made when observing the resources
I believe the obeservations were made without bias.
etc.



As for the fear of hell, well christians don't have a fear of hell and our faith is not based off the fact that we wont go to hell, it is faith in Jesus Christ, that he died on the Cross for our sins and reconnected humanity with God. Due to our faith in Jesus, we act accordingly.

Getting tired of bigots is a dead end road, since that would require one to be tired of humanity.

That's my cynical comment for the day.

That's what being a misanthrope is all about.

Of almost all claims espoused by the religious, this is one of the ones that pisses me off most, along with the similar claim that one can only be moral based upon religious faith.

How depressing, misanthropistic, and self-hating a belief is that? People can't be good and do good things except out of fear of hell and abased obedience to some divine entity? Believe it or not, atheists can be at least as moral as humans, and are at least as capable of 'action'. I myself am an atheist, and am more truly moral than many religious people I know. Morals can come from reason and rational thought as well as, or probably better than, myth-filled books, preachy exhortations, and irrational, conformistic, arbitrary, multi-millenia-old, fear-and-shame-empowered codes of behavior.

Atheists aren't human?

Atheists aren't human?

Of course not. Didn't you know? Atheists are creatures that were created by combining asparagus and the severed, skeletal arms of dead babies. They look human, but that is but a cunning disguise!

Can't see the photo :(
And I'm tired of religious bigots since a long, long time already :mad:

@Wolfholme:
Atheists are the "Übermensch"! :D (as defined by Nietzsche, not the Nazi definition)

To me, it's pretty clear that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. If everyone were trying to reach the Father, then they would be unfortunate to go about it differently. Moslems are not interested in getting to the Father. They are more interested in following Allah. Any number of believers of other religions are interested in following their own deities, so they are not interested in getting to the Father either.

When one posesses a precious jewel, there is a tendency to think that it is so precious that it would not be possible for anyone else to have something so valuable. There are other such jewels. Many of them. Regardless of that, it does not make the precious jewel one posesses to be any less prized.

Yes but this was a discussion thread about whether those religions can be true at the same time. If we assume that Chritianity and Islam are both true then both the Father and Allah are the one true God and therefore must be the same. Hence Muslims are serving the Father and Christians are serving Allah.

My post was an attempt to illustrate how it's possible to believe something without condemning those who believe something different.

To clarify: I respect people of other faiths. I do not accept the parts of their beliefs that contradict mine. I do not condemn them.

Now, now don't put words in my mouth, please. I can't speak for McVenezuela, but I don't think it is a question of right or wrong; instead it can be considered as different points of understanding.

I apologise. I'm afraid I didn't really understand your long post (46). I still don't think I can accept all faiths without rejecting parts of all of them. Perhaps we will have to aggree to disaggree as the thread has now descended into general faith-war and the original point is lost.

Hmph idea been around for ages. This though is possibly the first orgaised approach of it though

http://www.religioustolerance.org/caodaism.htm

Note though the religion is run by the vietnamise government... but oh well.

They appear to be somewhat intolerant of fat people if their sponsored links are anything to go by ;)

The fact that you think they're wrong when you have no evidence that you or they are anymore correct makes you a bigot. Unless you can factually prove correctness, then your very belief makes you a bigot, every bit as much as people who believe that one race is superior to another without any factual evidence to back them up. By that logic, people who believe that socialism is better than capitalism/authoritarianism is better than libertarianism are also bigots.

The problem is that religions, like any corporate enterprise, naturally tend towards a monopoly. Unlike corporate enterprises however, religions have the influence to command people to kill in their name.

It's a Pepsi / Coke / Highlander thing. Far too many people end up believing that There Must Only Be One.

I just think people need to start having faith in themselves first.

I apologise. I'm afraid I didn't really understand your long post (46). I still don't think I can accept all faiths without rejecting parts of all of them. Perhaps we will have to aggree to disaggree as the thread has now descended into general faith-war and the original point is lost.

To disagree is not a bad thing. After all with out disagrement how would truth ever be found.

My post simply stated that in their essensce all revealed religions teach the same basic truths, these truths can be thought of as spiritual principles. You find these spiritual principles in every religion around the world. These revealed religions also teach social laws that are different for each religion, these are laws concerning diet, day of worship, how to pray, holy days the list could go on almost forever. These social laws are different because the needs of the people in the area and of the time are different. God has sent Messengers to all people, all over the world at different times in order to guide people to a better way of life.

God has always intended for people to live in peace and fellowship. It is humankind that has taken the words of Messengers and decided that if someone doesn't agree with them then they need to be punished.

Baha'u'llah was sent by God to bring all of humanity together under one roof, to put aside the difference that seperate us and to accept and love the whole human family. It is really not that difficult to imagine that God wants us to live as brothers and sisters. The hard part is putting aside what we have been taught by those in authority and looking for truth where ever we may find it. Remember it was the Jewish authority that rejected Christ the first time He came.

To one degree or another every decision comes down to faith. Not necessarily faith in God, but faith in the source of the information your acting upon, or faith in the basis of "morality" or better yet faith in the result of your action. You might argue that your actions are based upon careful obeservation and though, but at one level or another it comes down to faith.
To act without faith, one would be have to have a 100% reliable proof. In order to find a fact which is 100% true, one would have to find out the reliability of that truth, then find out the reliabilty of the reliablity and so on, for an unlimited number.

For example, I believe the sun is a ball of gas.
I believe my informants know what they are talking about.
I believe the resources my informants used are reliable
I believe no mistakes were made when observing the resources
I believe the obeservations were made without bias.
etc.


Ah, Descartes' demon? Cogito ergo sum, and you can prove nothing else. It's true, and responding to it in terms of faith, I would argue that it, for some people at least, is more an evaluation of probability. I think, based upon the evidence I can gather, and the logical evaluation thereof, that the probability is higher that that string of statement is true, as opposed to it being not true. It's not a question of faith; it's a question of evaluated likelihood. The only thing I can prove is my own existence - I don't have faith that the people around me are real, I judge that lacking extraordinary new evidence, the highest probability is that they are not simulations or dreams.


As for the fear of hell, well christians don't have a fear of hell and our faith is not based off the fact that we wont go to hell, it is faith in Jesus Christ, that he died on the Cross for our sins and reconnected humanity with God. Due to our faith in Jesus, we act accordingly.

I suppose that's the ideal/theoretical motivation....

Atheists aren't human?

[embarassment] Typo.

I just think people need to start having faith in themselves first.

Amen to that.

Have you ever read anything by Ayn Rand?

Okay.

But... you know this a discussion forum, right? And you know what we do on discussion forums? Yep, that's right: we discuss things. Sometimes... we even debate things! I would say such a place is the perfect environment for the Whiney Forum Post Beast to live and flourish and facilitate discussion and debate. Would you not?

A one sided debate just isn't fun.

Of almost all claims espoused by the religious, this is one of the ones that pisses me off most, along with the similar claim that one can only be moral based upon religious faith.

How depressing, misanthropistic, and self-hating a belief is that? People can't be good and do good things except out of fear of hell and abased obedience to some divine entity? Believe it or not, atheists can be at least as moral as humans, and are at least as capable of 'action'. I myself am an atheist, and am more truly moral than many religious people I know. Morals can come from reason and rational thought as well as, or probably better than, myth-filled books, preachy exhortations, and irrational, conformistic, arbitrary, multi-millenia-old, fear-and-shame-empowered codes of behavior.

We may have different views of what faith means. To me, "faith" is more like "confidence" or "courage". Without faith, one would never be able to catch a bus because one would not even think that a bus would show up, let alone allow one to get on it.

As far as fear of hell and the like goes, I think those are created for simpletons. I don't know if it's possible to adequately describe why someone would want to be good and do good things to someone that has never actually done them. Everyone can relate to pain and suffering though, so that's why it's explained that way.

I will say this though: if one goes through life thinking "I refuse to believe until I understand", then they will never understand. Understanding does not create belief. Belief creates understanding.

Ah, Descartes' demon? Cogito ergo sum, and you can prove nothing else. It's true, and responding to it in terms of faith, I would argue that it, for some people at least, is more an evaluation of probability. I think, based upon the evidence I can gather, and the logical evaluation thereof, that the probability is higher that that string of statement is true, as opposed to it being not true. It's not a question of faith; it's a question of evaluated likelihood. The only thing I can prove is my own existence - I don't have faith that the people around me are real, I judge that lacking extraordinary new evidence, the highest probability is that they are not simulations or dreams.




I suppose that's the ideal/theoretical motivation....



[embarassment] Typo.



Amen to that.

Have you ever read anything by Ayn Rand?


Aha! Faith in evaluated likelihood. *Chuckles* "Descartes' demon? [I]Cogito ergo sum"- Never actually heard of it, but it sound interesting. I'll be sure to research it.

Let me rest you assured, very few Christians are motivated towards Christ through hell. It was a common solution for conversion in the past within the Catholic church and although I'm sure some still use it, it is not a basis of faith and takes the focus off of Jesus and puts it on fear. Fear often passes, and fear of a possible situation which no longer applies once they become saved would no longer give them be a reason to stay devote. Feeling the presence of God and witnessing a true christian lifestyle works best. :)

Anyway,

God bless and Merry Christmas!

-Donny