NationStates Jolt Archive

Continuation from a previous thread...btw, I don't have a problem with changing the title of the thread if you think of a more concise one...

From the thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10146689&posted=1#post10146689), and my replies...

I don't really know what any of that means, but I'll take it as my fault for not communicating my point correctly.

No, I decided not to elaborate, my fault. I understand what you're saying, so it's my turn to explain...

From my experience, coolhunting (the urge to differentiate from the "masses") is the very force that drives consumer culture today. The #1 American export seems to be "cool" (different, individualistic) in its many forms.

Exactly, //consumer culture//. The "Sesame Street Fallacy," if you will - if "everyooooooone is speeeeeeecial", then, actually everyone is the same. Insert an "of a given social group"/"of the social group in question" after that second 'everyone' if you're anal.

Something isn't individualistic if everyone is it or does it. It's not individualistic to be a consumer, a "pseudo-individualist" - you can't buy individualism, just the appearence of what others associate some of it to be. I thought Sesame Street would be something one American under 60 years old could relate to another...

It's not individualistic to be a consumer? ... And there's the fatal deceit of the neoliberals!
Before we continue, I'd like us to agree on what's leftist (extreme) and right (extreme). That's very hard to do on NS, but we need to set that standard before we can even debate this. We need to play ball in the same court, or else we don't have a debate at all.
I'll even promise to leave libertarianism/authoritarianism outta this, and trust me, that's no small sacrifice on my part. :D

I consider left as socialism/communism, and right as extreme organization.

(Before the libertarians/anarchists start cursing me as a traitor, take into consideration that I'm keeping the political spectrum "traditional" for the sake of the argument. There's really no other way but to approach this on that dichotomatic scale... at least given my limited debate skills. ;) )


Agreed?

BTW, I like your choice of title. ;)

I don't really know what any of that means, but I'll take it as my fault for not communicating my point correctly.

In the West, the left drives the consumerist culture far, far moe than they'd like to think simply becuase their values and ideals don't mix in any logical, or rational way.
How do the people on the left drive consumer culture? By participating in it?

The urge to avoid conformity directly defeats their efforts to embrace a so-called collectively cooperative society. They claim to work for, yet simultaneously fuel the drive against their own efforts.
I'm not sure that co-operative society necessitates conforming in all ways. Elaborate.

Also consider liberal rationalism. Supposedly we are more individualistic, however we are more dependent on each other than at any time in history. Individuals now have a more limited set of skills than they used to because in a rational society they don't need to be able to grow their own food, make their own possessions or provide their own transport (to give three examples). This causes us to be more dependent on a larger number of people, which leads to collectivism. Strange.

It's a race to the bottom. In all honesty, there's no difference between "keeping up with the Jones'es" and differentiating from those you mingle with everyday.
It's one and the same, in the end.
I'm really lost on this one.

Before we continue, I'd like us to agree on what's leftist (extreme) and right (extreme). That's very hard to do on NS, but we need to set that standard before we can even debate this. We need to play ball in the same court, or else we don't have a debate at all.
I'll even promise to leave libertarianism/authoritarianism outta this, and trust me, that's no small sacrifice on my part. :D

I consider left as socialism/communism, and right as extreme organization.

(Before the libertarians/anarchists start cursing me as a traitor, take into consideration that I'm keeping the political spectrum "traditional" for the sake of the argument. There's really no other way but to approach this on that dichotomatic scale... at least given my limited debate skills. ;) )


Agreed?

Uh, agreed that my standard can be found at www.politicalcompass.org?

Come on, there must be more than three people interested in this thread! I define far left as socialism and far right as laissez-faire capitalism.

I define far left as socialism and far right as laissez-faire capitalism.
1. Why?

2. Why no comment on the politicalcompass link?

1. Why?

2. Why no comment on the politicalcompass link?
1. Because it's convenient. They are opposite ideologies just as left and right are opposite directions.

2. It's old news. Good site, but I've been there and done it.