NationStates Jolt Archive

The Economies of India and China are booming, China's is soon to overtake Britain and France in size. Throughout Europe birth rates are dropping and Europe has become a net importer of people. The war in Iraq has shown the west's failure to secure its power abroad. Is Western civilisation in decline?

The Economies of India and China are booming, China is soon to overtake Britain and France in size. Throughout Europe birth rates are dropping and Europe has become a net importer of people. The war in Iraq has shown the wests failure to secure its power abroad. Is Western civilisation in decline?
How do you figure? Are you under the impression that we're losing the war any where other than in the Democratic Party?

How do you figure? Are you under the impression that we're losing the war any where other than in the Democratic Party?

The War has not been lost but a Secular, pro-western state has yet to be produced. Surley that was the whole point?

Amazing how when these countries start to Westernize that their economies then start to boom. No, I don't think we're in decline.

Meh. The ecconomic growth of China and India will drop. Wages will go up, as they always do, and there will be fair competition.

Assuming we ever get fair trade. DOWN WITH SUBSIDIES!

No. Western civilization is still spreading it's ideas and values throughout the world. Even China, despite efforts by it's government, isn't able to keep out Western ideas like democracy, freedom of religion, and fair trial by jury. Protests are breaking out, though the Chinese government breaks them up, sometimes violently. The Chinese press tries to keep them under wraps, but clearly the people of China, who now have some access to Western ideas, are starting to stand up for their rights.

Many fault lines lie under modern China. Unrest breaks out in small protests around the nation. The ruling party can claim legitimacy only with sustained economic growth. Leaders fret that rising inequalities, social injustices and rampant corruption could trigger broader strife, their greatest fear.

Protests are increasing. While Chinese, especially in cities, are generally optimistic, the populace has many local grievances, ranging from corruption to land grabs and abuse of authority. The number of protests shot up from 10,000 in 1994 to "more than 74,000" last year, involving 3.76 million people, according to Public Security Minister Zhou Yongkang.

You're getting a much more knowledgeable citizen with more access to information who want more out of life and are beginning to understand their legal rights," said Baum, the UCLA professor. "And that's putting great stresses on the system

from http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/world/13458631.htm

No, it isn't

[/debate]

Nope. It is not.

Well these last few posts have been enlightening...

Well these last few posts have been enlightening...

Tis what you make of it.

Meh. The ecconomic growth of China and India will drop. Wages will go up, as they always do, and there will be fair competition.

Assuming we ever get fair trade. DOWN WITH SUBSIDIES!

Yes. Right now they are both experiencing a period of unregulated capitalism, just as the US did. That will inevitably change, as labor rights start asserting themselves.

Why does everyone always forget Brazil:(

too bad by the time China, Brazil and/or India become any real problem a federal E.U will be in place (I hope) which will be the most powerful economy on the globe heck even in a worst case scenario Europe will unite.

Also you fail to realise that the jobs that are making China and to a lesser extent Brazil and India are quickly being taken over by machines that is why the U.K is encouraging people to do further education because skilled labour will be the only growing job sector in the future

And I stress that the population issues of the future will be a big problem but not as big as what is going to happen in the booming economy’s who will be in deep trouble with growing social upheaval (especially as Buddhism grows in India), rising numbers of the permanently sick (rising living standards means they aren’t dying from the water anymore) and lets not forget the growing economies are completely reliant on the west if we fall were taking them with us

Meh. The ecconomic growth of China and India will drop. Wages will go up, as they always do, and there will be fair competition.
Assuming we ever get fair trade. DOWN WITH SUBSIDIES!

Fair trade is often a means of subsidy in itself. It props up prices beyond what the market will pay, resulting in the same situation as if there were subsidies. What we need is true free trade, without subsidies, protectionism, and nationalist regulations that stop foreign competition. We also need all of the world's currencies to trade freely.

The West isn't anywhere near in decline; India and China are booming because they are adopting Western methods and capitalism, and the Western idea of democracy is slowly asserting itself in Asia. If we can conquer the threats to progress like religious fundamentalism, the West will be at its strongest ever in the history of mankind.

Growth cannot go on forever. There must be a limit. Seems like Europe has found it, with stabilizing economy - it isn't actually declining yet, but far from the growth that has recently taken place in Far East. Same thing with the population, actually.

What people usually refuse to realize that this is the inevitable outcome.
As history has shown us, poor and developing nations 1.make more babies, 2.fight more wars and 3.are strongly religious. Europe has finally overcome that, with stabilized/very slowly growing population, very few conflicts and widespread scientism and atheism.

What's wrong with that? Sounds damn' good to me. Peace and welfare.

Europe has just shown the way, made its way through the stages that others have followed, and these most recent steps will inevitabely be taken by the Far East youngsters, and Americans, just alike.

Why does everyone always forget Brazil:(

Because Brazil is taking the "under-the-radar" approach to winning Survivor, and probably it's a good strategy, since at least they won't get voted out early.

Globalisation has changed the rules completely now every nation on the Earth is in the same boat if one nation sinks its going to bring down the rest with it if one nations military power starts to shrink another will take its place never before in history has this happened you could even say the west rules the world apart from a few crackpot nations like North Korea.

So the point is western civilization has won in a way though it is more of a dominant personality in the world civilization

Well, theocracy is looming in the horizon, reality TV and pop music are very popular, and millions can't tell the difference between religion and science. I think a case could be made that Western civilization is in serious decline or will be in the near future.

Yes, the West is in decline. You all seem to think China and India will have a leveling out and their growth will slow down. The key word there is eventually. How long did unchecked US and European capitalism go on? Several hundred years, and only now are the Chinese and Indian economies reaching this unchecked capitalism. Now we must look at those two countries competition. Europe is socializing or has socialized and as a result their economic growth in almost every landlock country has come to a halt and/or is starting to shrink. The Democratic Party in the US (as well as most independents) is pushing to socialize the US, which will yield the same results as in Europe.

The Chinese and Indian economies will outgrow the Anglo/Saxon economy, but they will do it with Anglo/Saxon ideals.

Western Civilization on the whole is also in decline. European birthrates are not even meeting replacement numbers and they rely completely on Middle Eastern and Muslim African immigrants to replace their dying. These new immigrants do not share Western ideals and despise European governments. The US is barely replacing its population and it will follow the same path as Europe unless changes are made.

Well, theocracy is looming in the horizon, reality TV and pop music are very popular, and millions can't tell the difference between religion and science. I think a case could be made that Western civilization is in serious decline or will be in the near future.

Theocracy won't come from the West. It will come from the Mideast and Africa, places dominated by Islam. The number of people that can't tell the difference between religion and science are in decline, as they have been since the Scientific Revolution. (Which Islam never went through)

The Economies of India and China are booming, China's is soon to overtake Britain and France in size. Throughout Europe birth rates are dropping and Europe has become a net importer of people. The war in Iraq has shown the west's failure to secure its power abroad. Is Western civilisation in decline?

In the future Europe will have an ethnic middle eastern majority, while America will have an overwhelming hispanic majority. And so multi-cultralism will literally be the death of the "western" populations as all their nations will be taken from them by foreign populations. However Western civilization itself will survive, only it will be the new majorities that will uphold it.

Theocracy won't come from the West. It will come from the Mideast and Africa, places dominated by Islam. The number of people that can't tell the difference between religion and science are in decline, as they have been since the Scientific Revolution. (Which Islam never went through)

Well, you haven't seen the number of creationists we have in the US, I guess.

Yes, the West is in decline. You all seem to think China and India will have a leveling out and their growth will slow down. The key word there is eventually. How long did unchecked US and European capitalism go on? Several hundred years, and only now are the Chinese and Indian economies reaching this unchecked capitalism. Now we must look at those two countries competition. Europe is socializing or has socialized and as a result their economic growth in almost every landlock country has come to a halt and/or is starting to shrink. The Democratic Party in the US (as well as most independents) is pushing to socialize the US, which will yield the same results as in Europe.

The Chinese and Indian economies will outgrow the Anglo/Saxon economy, but they will do it with Anglo/Saxon ideals.

Western Civilization on the whole is also in decline. European birthrates are not even meeting replacement numbers and they rely completely on Middle Eastern and Muslim African immigrants to replace their dying. These new immigrants do not share Western ideals and despise European governments. The US is barely replacing its population and it will follow the same path as Europe unless changes are made.

I'm half inclined to agree; all cultures have a rise, growth, plateau, and decline phase. It's usually associated with social or economic factors leading to military obselescence.

In the West's case, though... I dunno. You could argue that the social/economic factors are in place for plateau, if not decline, but, the military advantage is still overwhelming. If the west, the US in particular of course, _really_ took the brakes off, just didn't give a damn about what the public thought, any of the emerging superpowers mentioned'd be buggered - so would we all, in the event of nuclear war, but that's by the way... :p I think it's still possible to see 'worse' economic/social trends (if you agree the current ones are 'bad'), but the military advantage could be maintained.

So, I don't know... the ideas and ideals of the west are being exported, the 'originators' of western thought still have the potential to mount considreable military rearmament _if they chose to_ (getting them to choose to would be the tricky part!)... It's an interesting problem.

If the West is in decline because new nations are going to overtake them, and these nations are going to overtake them because they've adopted Western ideals, customs, and practices, then Western culture isn't really in decline at all. The mantle of leadership of Western culture will just be placed upon these new nations.

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the mostly left seems to find us decadent, when they push the very environment that fosters that cultural climate (and with good reason ;) ), and the right, while bitching in the media about the imminent demise of our nation due to such progress, is denying it exists?
It really is about how you word the question. :p

I like our culture: democracy is a good way to live and civility should be a close companion to democracy.

But the barbarians are at our gates. Let them in and mingle or fight them out. If we let them in they will change our ways. Maybe for the better, maybe not. If we fight we can win or loose. Man can go the way the dinossaurs went.

Whatever happens the world is changing by the minute.

The end of the world (as we know it) is comming.

We can only hope tomorrow will be another day.

But hope is one of Man's best features.

Carpe diem.

I like our culture: democracy is a good way to live and civility should be a close companion to democracy.

But the barbarians are at our gates. Let them in and mingle or fight them out. If we let them in they will change our ways. Maybe for the better, maybe not. If we fight we can win or loose. Man can go the way the dinossaurs went.

Whatever happens the world is changing by the minute.

The end of the world (as we know it) is comming.

We can only hope tomorrow will be another day.

But hope is one of Man's best features.

Carpe diem.

I've had to ask this twice this week--

Was that a poem?

Western civilisation is alive and well in most parts (although some people'd prefer to push it back into religiousity and conservatism).

Western countries will not play quite the same dominant role in the future that they once did, but I'm okay with that. If the EU works out, there really is nothing to worry about for Europe, and the US is set anyways until they screw it up themselves.

But as some people pointed out - Liberalism and Capitalism (and the stuff that comes with it) have made their impact and aren't going to go away - so Western Civilisation is not really in danger.

You pose an unanswerable question. Civilization. Such a sweeping word. What does it mean? Is it just the economy? Or does it mean theatre? Is it a political system or a way of life? Did the Greeks of the fifth century B.C. have a great Civilization or were they barbarous?
I believe however that in this thread most people have taken it to mean the Western economy and political ideologies, and to a certain extent some of these policies are rocketing and spreading, whilst others are defunct and known only in economics textbooks. But many others would talk of culture and everyday life. Take television as an example. In the last 10 years even Red China has been watching American programs. The Kingdom of Bhutan was recently told that their King would abdicate in 2008 and allow a Presidential government to take control of his country, similar to those in western democracies.
I do don't believe that you can say that all western civilization is in decline; there will always be changing ideas, ideologies and beliefs. Can any one of us say that we are totally happy with everything in our culture, our countries, our lives?

What people usually refuse to realize that this is the inevitable outcome.
As history has shown us, poor and developing nations 1.make more babies, 2.fight more wars and 3.are strongly religious. Europe has finally overcome that, with stabilized/very slowly growing population, very few conflicts and widespread scientism and atheism.

What's wrong with that? Sounds damn' good to me. Peace and welfare.
It's extremely short term and at it's current rate unless something changes drastically in it's makeup it will collapse in on itself within 50 years

Well, theocracy is looming in the horizon, reality TV and pop music are very popular, and millions can't tell the difference between religion and science. I think a case could be made that Western civilization is in serious decline or will be in the near future.

Western science is what keeps the world moving forward; until we lose that, which is highly unlikely since the West has been the wellspring of modern science for 400-plus years, we're not in decline. If anything, we're stronger than ever as more and more nations reject ignorance and totalitarianism and embrace modern Western democracy.

Western science is what keeps the world moving forward; until we lose that, which is highly unlikely since the West has been the wellspring of modern science for 400-plus years, we're not in decline. If anything, we're stronger than ever as more and more nations reject ignorance and totalitarianism and embrace modern Western democracy.

I agree. Much of what defines Western culture is the academic advancement that it has triggered throughout the world. Much of Eastern development is due in large part to the developments of the west. Economies like Japan and India as well as the militaries of China and Korea are essentially western ideas taking root in the east.

I think its stunning how similar the US has been in the last 50 years to how Rome was post-punic wars. In terms of deterioration of traditional values, economic conglomeration, and other phrases that I'ev probably plagerized from somewhere or other

I think its stunning how similar the US has been in the last 50 years to how Rome was post-punic wars. In terms of deterioration of traditional values, economic conglomeration, and other phrases that I'ev probably plagerized from somewhere or other

Interesting indeed. However, the one thing that Rome had that the United States does not is a serf population that was created through the prisoners from Rome's endless conquests. This eventually lead to the social stratification that destroyed the empire.

The Economies of India and China are booming, China's is soon to overtake Britain and France in size. Throughout Europe birth rates are dropping and Europe has become a net importer of people. The war in Iraq has shown the west's failure to secure its power abroad. Is Western civilisation in decline?

-when asked what he thought about Western Civilization-

"I think it would be a wonderful idea." -Gandhi.

:D

Worried by the vague racism in some of the posts above. I think Islam is seriously misunderstood by the majority and, I can't say I have a complete grasp of its meaning but, I think it's seen, by some, as an antidote to a capitalist system where next to everything goes, as long as the free-market wants it. Islam is as much political as it is religious - an amalgamation of the two, if you will. The Prophet Mohammed was very much a socialist.

Anyway, there certainly isn't a 'crisis' in 'The West'. As it has been, and maybe always will, the flux of economies will mean the lead in world dealings will change hands rarely, but regularly. Already the US is heavily funded by 'The East', and China will become a big big player in the world economy, but not to the detriment of western civilisation.

PS. The developing countries are literally begging for a halt to the movement towards entirely Free-Trade. We should give them the chance that we (I assume it includes almost all the countries you're from) had in the past, time to develop unilaterally.

PS. The developing countries are literally begging for a halt to the movement towards entirely Free-Trade. We should give them the chance that we (I assume it includes almost all the countries you're from) had in the past, time to develop unilaterally.

They don't want free trade because the EU and US refuse to cut their subsidies and tariffs on agricultural products, but these two expect the developing nations to cut their manufacturing tariffs. As a result, embracing this kind of free trade does nothing but make their situation worse by wiping out their nascent commercial agricultural sector.

Despite the protectionist nature of parts of the EU (Not all that hot on US policies) entirely free-trade will be more to the detriment of less developed countries. But yes, the EU wants to have it's cake and eat it :eek: cliche alert :eek:

Worried by the vague racism in some of the posts above. I think Islam is seriously misunderstood by the majority and, I can't say I have a complete grasp of its meaning but, I think it's seen, by some, as an antidote to a capitalist system where next to everything goes, as long as the free-market wants it. Islam is as much political as it is religious - an amalgamation of the two, if you will. The Prophet Mohammed was very much a socialist.

Well, I do find it interesting that millions of non-Muslims when out on the streets to protest the illegal war in Iraq, but there has been mostly silence from the Muslim mainstream when Muslim extremists kill civilians.

Islam is misunderstood because many people just assume that Islam supports terrorism. This slanted view of the religion will continue if Muslims openly decry acts committed in their name.

Muslim countries must shoulder some of the blame as well. It is effective to have such a good scapegoat so the masses of your country don't start questioning you, though.:rolleyes:
The West isn't the only country responsible, but extremely biased people think it's either the West or the East to blame. It's both.

Plus, the posts are xenophobic, not racist. Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.

They don't want free trade because the EU and US refuse to cut their subsidies and tariffs on agricultural products, but these two expect the developing nations to cut their manufacturing tariffs. As a result, embracing this kind of free trade does nothing but make their situation worse by wiping out their nascent commercial agricultural sector.
Actually, the US has been slowly cutting it's agri subsidies and tarrifs. But only slowly. It needs to be done a lot faster. Like all at once.

Actually, the US has been slowly cutting it's agri subsidies and tarrifs. But only slowly. It needs to be done a lot faster. Like all at once.

Absolutely. The same goes for the EU and anyone else, of course. Farm subsidies are undoubtedly one of the reasons for the developing nations' inability to develop a healthy commercial agriculture sector.

I think plenty of people feel the race of a Muslim is implicit. I also know of many many Muslims who are openly against terrorism and are scathing of anyone who even sympathises with the perpertrators of the, say, 7/7 bombings. Why no marches? Well, our governments should fear the publics displeasure... Terrorist groups are not democratic, any marches would be relatively pointless, beyond a show of solidarity. Marches of those kind have occurred btw.

(I assume you meant to write 'unless' rather than 'if... decrys...' - not having a go, just a typo yeah?)

Addition: I'm off to bed, so any questions directed my way will have to be answered alot later, sorry

SNIP

you do know the euro and pound are still above the dollar and are still going up and up you know why? because socialism works looks at Scandinavia you would think under your logic that there economy would be collapsing but they are doing an outstanding job

Also if by Western culture you mean our ideals then we have Brazil and India against maybe China who do you think would win a fight though I admit as are western militaries start to shrink under economic trouble we may have trouble with our commitments in nations like Taiwan and various African nations but its not like India and Brazil (in a little while they will be joined by Russia who will become rich from selling natural gas to Europe) won’t step right in

And lets not forget Germany won’t be hit as hard since they didn’t really have a baby boom (though some trouble is at this present time thanks to the Fuhrer and his baby making schemes) Germany does more peacekeeping than America so things should remain pretty stable as Germany once again becomes a major military power

Amazing how when these countries start to Westernize that their economies then start to boom.
according to our values of "progress"


i think western civilisation is digging itself an early grave, blinded by our own "success" and, of course 'progress', and we're taking the rest of the world with us.

you do know the euro and pound are still above the dollar and are still going up and up you know why? because socialism works looks at Scandinavia you would think under your logic that there economy would be collapsing but they are doing an outstanding job

Scandinavia has oil, a small population, and modern economic ideas. Its socialism works because its efficent and fair to corporations at the same time.

Even though the pound and euro are worth more, pretty much all of the international trade in services and the foreign reserves of central banks are dollar denominated, and that number is on the rise as China and India load up on them to finance our deficits. The value of a currency is meaningless unless it's used universally as a world currency; I mean, in the 1980's the Iraqi dinar was worth $3/dinar, but their nation and economy were far from dominant.

Also if by Western culture you mean our ideals then we have Brazil and India against maybe China who do you think would win a fight though I admit as are western militaries start to shrink under economic trouble we may have trouble with our commitments in nations like Taiwan and various African nations but its not like India and Brazil (in a little while they will be joined by Russia who will become rich from selling natural gas to Europe) won’t step right in

China has absolutely no incentive to fight the US, and the same goes with India or Russia. Our version of capitalism is leading to an economic boom, and they are loosening up on their repression, albeit very slowly. China and America have decades of cooperation and amicable competition ahead rather than rivalry, because we both stand to benefit more. The same goes for India, who is the world's largest democracy. Russia has nothing to gain, and natural gas isn't helpful unless there's a buyer for it (the US produces 99% of its own natural gas demand, and the rest can come from Canada).

And lets not forget Germany won’t be hit as hard since they didn’t really have a baby boom (though some trouble is at this present time thanks to the Fuhrer and his baby making schemes) Germany does more peacekeeping than America so things should remain pretty stable as Germany once again becomes a major military power

Germany can't individually become a major military power again (both economically speaking and constitutionally speaking). They can as a part of the EU, but not individually. European nations' time as individual world powers is permanently over. Their new hope and future lies with the EU and globalization. The lack of a baby boom is even more problematic because their population aged earlier than the US but without immigration or a large birthrate to replace it.

Western science is what keeps the world moving forward; until we lose that, which is highly unlikely since the West has been the wellspring of modern science for 400-plus years, we're not in decline. If anything, we're stronger than ever as more and more nations reject ignorance and totalitarianism and embrace modern Western democracy.

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the mostly left seems to find us decadent, when they push the very environment that fosters that cultural climate (and with good reason ), and the right, while bitching in the media about the imminent demise of our nation due to such progress, is denying it exists?
It really is about how you word the question.
We were both talking about the same thing from different perspectives.
Thanks for pointing out something I thought was obvious to the world (obviously not, though).

The lack of a baby boom is even more problematic because their population aged earlier than the US but without immigration or a large birthrate to replace it.
And besides...in the US they're talking about a Social Security Scare. Germany's already there (http://ideas.repec.org/p/nbr/nberwo/10525.html).

One could argue that the poster child of western civilisation is right now turning its back on its heritage and embracing irrationalism. Let's not get complacent, fellas.

I think its stunning how similar the US has been in the last 50 years to how Rome was post-punic wars. In terms of deterioration of traditional values, economic conglomeration, and other phrases that I'ev probably plagerized from somewhere or other
By that, do you mean salvery-encompassing, free-associative, and all that other shit you can't think of?

Meh. Who cares? The West had it pretty good for the past few centuries, let somebody else get the limelight.

too bad by the time China, Brazil and/or India become any real problem a federal E.U will be in place (I hope) which will be the most powerful economy on the globe heck even in a worst case scenario Europe will unite.

I honestly doubt that. French subconcious nationalism -- yes, it exists -- won't allow it to happen, unless France is at the top. I'll put money on it.

too bad by the time China, Brazil and/or India become any real problem a federal E.U will be in place (I hope) which will be the most powerful economy on the globe heck even in a worst case scenario Europe will unite.

Also you fail to realise that the jobs that are making China and to a lesser extent Brazil and India are quickly being taken over by machines that is why the U.K is encouraging people to do further education because skilled labour will be the only growing job sector in the future

And I stress that the population issues of the future will be a big problem but not as big as what is going to happen in the booming economy’s who will be in deep trouble with growing social upheaval (especially as Buddhism grows in India), rising numbers of the permanently sick (rising living standards means they aren’t dying from the water anymore) and lets not forget the growing economies are completely reliant on the west if we fall were taking them with us

lol man.... go easy on the assumptions.

In another 30-40 years, both China and India will have economies above that of EU (united or not).

In 1500 A.D, India and China had 50% of the world's GDP. Both the countries were wrecked by European colonial powers and now that there is a level playing field, it is inevitable that things revert back to the natural state.

Population of India (and China) is not a handicap. It is our strength. In another decade or so, both these countries would have such a big internal consumption market that they won't be reliant on EU and US markets as much as they are today.

Plus, there is the "Chindia" thing.

Already China is set to become the largest trading partner of India replacing US. Trade between the two countries is booming. I am predcting that in another 15-20 years, India will be a significant partner to China after the US. If Hu Jintao plays his cards right and assures India...then the synergy between the Chinese manufacturing and Indian services will rock the world.

And what's that nonsense about social upheaval in India due to increasing Bhuddhism?

First off, there is no increasing Bhuddhism in India.

Next, why should it be a problem? Bhuddhism is an Indic religion after all and Vaishnavists (majority sect of Hinduism) hold Bhuddha as an avatar and is a venerated figure.

Meh. The ecconomic growth of China and India will drop. Wages will go up, as they always do, and there will be fair competition.

Assuming we ever get fair trade. DOWN WITH SUBSIDIES!

:rolleyes: Shall we start with the heavy subsidizing of agriculture by the developed states?

you do know the euro and pound are still above the dollar and are still going up and up you know why? because socialism works looks at Scandinavia you would think under your logic that there economy would be collapsing but they are doing an outstanding job

Also if by Western culture you mean our ideals then we have Brazil and India against maybe China who do you think would win a fight though I admit as are western militaries start to shrink under economic trouble we may have trouble with our commitments in nations like Taiwan and various African nations but its not like India and Brazil (in a little while they will be joined by Russia who will become rich from selling natural gas to Europe) won’t step right in

And lets not forget Germany won’t be hit as hard since they didn’t really have a baby boom (though some trouble is at this present time thanks to the Fuhrer and his baby making schemes) Germany does more peacekeeping than America so things should remain pretty stable as Germany once again becomes a major military power


Then answer me these:

Why does everyone in the Third World (and in the world in general) prefer dollars to Euro or pounds? Its because the dollar is more stable then the Euro or the Pound.

Why does everyone with a large amount of money want to come to America for any major or risky surgery? Its because American healthcare isn't yet socialized and is far better.

Why do doctors move to America from Canada and European nations with that GREAT socialized medicine?

It may "work" but its a pathetic alternative to capitalism, and even at that socialism is only a precursor to communism. Now socialism would work if all the world were to socialize but that will never happen, its the same thing as communism. (I mean that in the fact that it would work if the entire world switched to it)

The part where you adress shrinking western militaries:

Western militaries are shrinking because they are so powerful and because they are moving into the age of Informational Warfare. Where at the press of a button you can shove a missile up a mans ass from 10,000 miles away (that is an exageration but many of our weapons are very accurate from very far distances). In Informational Warfare large armies just make easier targets, why do you think Iraq w/the 4th largest military in the world fell so quickly? Why do you think everytime China has threatened war against America it threatens terrorism?(China has threatened the US with nuclear war if it defends Tiawan. It first did so in 2000-2001) Why has China made terrorism part of its official military doctrine? Because it cannot keep up with the US in Informational Warfare.

In Informational Warfare you have zap and swarm strategies. Zap is what the US and other developed militaries use. It is the use of high-tech missiles and such weaponry.

Swarm is the strategy which underdeveloped militaries use. Swarm in otherwords is terrorism, they can infiltrate communications system (or worse shut informational systems down therefore stunning and paralyzing the developed military) then appear attack a target and dissapear without much (if any) of a trace.

And Germany will not become any real military power again for several reasons:

The EU will eventually gain control of its military.

German population isn't even replacing itself.

Germany spends very little on its military and is about 10-20 years behind America in military technology.

Why does everyone in the Third World (and in the world in general) prefer dollars to Euro or pounds? Its because the dollar is more stable then the Euro or the Pound.
It most certainly isn't. They do it because it's tradition, and because the firms they deal with generally trade with dollars.

Why does everyone with a large amount of money want to come to America for any major or risky surgery? Its because American healthcare isn't yet socialized and is far better.
No. They don't.
Medicine is of high quality in all Western countries. People go to America because there they can buy their way to the front of the queue, while in Canada for example they'd have to put their name on waiting lists (which is an example of bad planning, I grant you that).

Why do doctors move to America from Canada and European nations with that GREAT socialized medicine?
Because they get higher wages there. But not all that many do that these days.

It may "work" but its a pathetic alternative to capitalism, and even at that socialism is only a precursor to communism.
Wanna try Anarcho-Capitalism then?

Why do you think Iraq w/the 4th largest military in the world fell so quickly?
Are you sure?

Why do you think everytime China has threatened war against America it threatens terrorism?(China has threatened the US with nuclear war if it defends Tiawan. It first did so in 2000-2001) Why has China made terrorism part of its official military doctrine? Because it cannot keep up with the US in Informational Warfare.
What are you talking about?!

The EU will eventually gain control of its military.
True.

German population isn't even replacing itself.
What are you talking about?!

Germany spends very little on its military and is about 10-20 years behind America in military technology.
No, it is not. How about you inform yourself?

Let's start here:
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/
http://www.kmweg.com/gb/index.php
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_accueil.php?lang=EN
http://www.eads.net/
and so on...

That's a lot of false assertions for just one post, don't you think?

Neu Leonstein]It most certainly isn't. They do it because it's tradition, and because the firms they deal with generally trade with dollars.

Then why do the firms generally trade with dollars its not by accident. Wouldn't they trade with the money worth the most, or the most stable?

No. They don't.
Medicine is of high quality in all Western countries. People go to America because there they can buy their way to the front of the queue, while in Canada for example they'd have to put their name on waiting lists (which is an example of bad planning, I grant you that).

Many chairmen of the Soviet Union hired US doctors to preform their surgeries. And yes thankfully you can buy it, because when you buy it you don't have to wait until your dead for the surgery you had to have 2 weeks before!!!! And your doctor is also more willing, because he gets paid more the better he is or the more skilled position he holds.

Because they get higher wages there. But not all that many do that these days.

And they get higher wages because in America we still reward good work :). And yes they do, we had 3 Canadian doctors move into our local pediatricians this last week.

Wanna try Anarcho-Capitalism then?

No just plain Capitalism (Pre FDR for America).

Are you sure?


What are you talking about?!


True.


What are you talking about?!
The German reproduction rate I think is something like 1.5 it may may be replacing itself.

No, it is not. How about you inform yourself?

Yes it is read up on the First Gulf War German units (And other European Units) couldn't operate w/American units because their technology was so old it wasn't compatable anymoe. This is also why NATO is increasingly defunct.

Let's start here:
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/
http://www.kmweg.com/gb/index.php
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_accueil.php?lang=EN
http://www.eads.net/
and so on...

That's a lot of false assertions for just one post, don't you think?
Start your education with:

The Death of the West

Inside the Asylum

The New Face of War: How War Will Be Fought in the 21st Century

Neu Leonstein]It most certainly isn't. They do it because it's tradition, and because the firms they deal with generally trade with dollars.

Then why do the firms generally trade with dollars its not by accident. Wouldn't they trade with the money worth the most, or the most stable?

No. They don't.
Medicine is of high quality in all Western countries. People go to America because there they can buy their way to the front of the queue, while in Canada for example they'd have to put their name on waiting lists (which is an example of bad planning, I grant you that).

Many chairmen of the Soviet Union hired US doctors to preform their surgeries. And yes thankfully you can buy it, because when you buy it you don't have to wait until your dead for the surgery you had to have 2 weeks before!!!! And your doctor is also more willing, because he gets paid more the better he is or the more skilled position he holds.

Because they get higher wages there. But not all that many do that these days.

And they get higher wages because in America we still reward good work :). And yes they do, we had 3 Canadian doctors move into our local pediatricians this last week.

Wanna try Anarcho-Capitalism then?

No just plain Capitalism (Pre FDR for America).

Are you sure?


What are you talking about?!


True.


What are you talking about?!
The German reproduction rate I think is something like 1.5 it may may be replacing itself.

No, it is not. How about you inform yourself?

Yes it is read up on the First Gulf War German units (And other European Units) couldn't operate w/American units because their technology was so old it wasn't compatable anymoe. This is also why NATO is increasingly defunct.

Let's start here:
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/
http://www.kmweg.com/gb/index.php
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_accueil.php?lang=EN
http://www.eads.net/
and so on...

That's a lot of false assertions for just one post, don't you think?
Start your education with:

The Death of the West

Inside the Asylum

The New Face of War: How War Will Be Fought in the 21st Century

I really hate to be outta the loop, so I'm gonna sk again--

Is that a poem?

I really hate to be outta the loop, so I'm gonna sk again--

Is that a poem?


No and I apologize that was the first and probably last time I try that elaborate little qoute then rebuttle thing. :confused:

Then why do the firms generally trade with dollars its not by accident. Wouldn't they trade with the money worth the most, or the most stable?
Because there was no alternative back then. I will not deny that the US used to be the only provider of a genuinely stable currency, but that was because of the way trade had been set up.
Today, the Euro is just as valid a currency as the dollar. Some companies have taken to use it as their medium of exchange, others may follow.
I was merely objecting to your basically unsupported assertion that the dollar is stable, and the euro isn't.

Many chairmen of the Soviet Union hired US doctors to preform their surgeries.
Okay, that would make it at least 16 years ago.

And your doctor is also more willing, because he gets paid more the better he is or the more skilled position he holds.
Doctors are always willing. They do get good wages in Europe and Canada as well, it is simply that specialists get better pay in the States. I'm not happy with the way the system is currently set up, but your assertion that US medicine is better than other countries' is again false.
And many Americans go over to Canada for free routine visits by the way.

And they get higher wages because in America we still reward good work :).
No, it is because in America their wages come about through demand and supply, while other governments felt they had to intervene to guarantee supply.
It doesn't work, which is why there are fundamental reforms happening in most EU countries to create a better system.

The German reproduction rate I think is something like 1.5 it may may be replacing itself.
Fact is that the only country where the population is actually in danger of disappearing is Russia. In other countries, population growth has slowed, but that is replaced with immigrants.

Yes it is read up on the First Gulf War German units (And other European Units) couldn't operate w/American units because their technology was so old it wasn't compatable anymoe. This is also why NATO is increasingly defunct.
Well, I think you kinda exposed yourself here. Germany did not participate in either Gulf War.
And besides, British and French forces fought many battles and both did quite well. The only thing was that French planes were not used, because Iraq had bought some French jets earlier, and there was fear of friendly fire incidents.
And the reason NATO is defunct (not that it is) is that the US wanted to attack Iraq and couldn't be bothered to clear it up with its Allies.

And finally, that is again 15 years ago. You need to update your information, and I hope you had a look at the links I posted.

EDIT: To use the quotes properly, you get a piece of text, select it and click the "quote" button at the top of the text window. Alternatively, you can simply put "[QUOT.E]" and "[/Q.UOTE]" around it. And if you want to show the name of the person who posted it, use "[QUOT.E=Name]" and "[/QUO.TE]" (without the dots of course)

The Economies of India and China are booming, China's is soon to overtake Britain and France in size. Throughout Europe birth rates are dropping and Europe has become a net importer of people. The war in Iraq has shown the west's failure to secure its power abroad. Is Western civilisation in decline?
Don't underestimate the capacity for self-renewal of democracies.

The succesive Occidental Civilizations have the impressive ability to not to adapt to every new Age that arrives once in a while.

Yes it is read up on the First Gulf War German units (And other European Units) couldn't operate w/American units because their technology was so old it wasn't compatable anymoe. This is also why NATO is increasingly defunct.

Not only did Germany not participate in either Gulf War, but, you do know that much of the US' technology comes from Germany, right?

In the future Europe will have an ethnic middle eastern majority, while America will have an overwhelming hispanic majority. And so multi-cultralism will literally be the death of the "western" populations as all their nations will be taken from them by foreign populations. However Western civilization itself will survive, only it will be the new majorities that will uphold it.
I doubt this will come into fruition though. Multiculturalism has had its death knell sounded in Europe, at long last. France is aborting the experiment, and Britain seems likely to follow. If anything, Europe will become Eurocentric once more, and focus on closer union. Voters in France and the Netherlands have spoken, and they are disatisfied with the EU's direction. The bureaucracy will have to listen.

The USA may well become overwhelmingly hispanic (last time I checked, they are Westerners), depending on its position towards immigration. Yet, if China, India and Brazil do indeed do so well why would anyone want to emigrate to the West? Their own countries will become more than viable.

As for Russia, well Russia, alongside Norway, could both one day decide to join the EU, so I see Russia as an ally rather than as a foe.

The West will not decline. Once the EU integrates completely (possibly including Russia), it will be at its apex. The USA, the EU, Canada, Australia and New Zealand will be a formidable power, particularly economically.

We are in decline though in one aspect. Culture. Western culture is disintegrating into a mass product, no longer erudite nor the pinnacle of artistic inspiration. It is dying. One could say that the same is happening in China and Japan, yet I think its the West that is dumbing down its culture the most.

Geographically yes. Culturally, no.

SNIP

growing Buddhism is a problem to the Hindu social structure because many of the people on the bottom of the pile are joining Buddhism this is being helped by the American ideal of "you can go anywhere if your work hard" which is the opposite to Hinduism this problem and the problem with any political treaty between India and China is because of Tibet (Buddhists have fled to India spreading Buddhism with them along with there votes against any thing that is China also I doubt Indian government is all to pleased with what is going on near there border)

Russia will become rich off Natural gas not from selling to America like you thought but from Europe this is because the North sea running low on natural gas this will also hopefully bring Russia into the E.U

We are in decline though in one aspect. Culture. Western culture is disintegrating into a mass product, no longer erudite nor the pinnacle of artistic inspiration. It is dying. One could say that the same is happening in China and Japan, yet I think its the West that is dumbing down its culture the most.

I don't know if it's declined, but rather it's changed. Some aspects of our culture have always been crude and commercialized, but the rise of mass media and advertising has made it mroe prominent than it was in the past.

However, at the same time there are more people who are better educated than at any time in the past, so more erudite culture has strengthened its influence in society. I think it's just that the cruder aspects of our culture have more exposure than they did in the past rather than cultural decline.

growing Buddhism is a problem to the Hindu social structure because many of the people on the bottom of the pile are joining Buddhism this is being helped by the American ideal of "you can go anywhere if your work hard" which is the opposite to Hinduism this problem and the problem with any political treaty between India and China is because of Tibet (Buddhists have fled to India spreading Buddhism with them along with there votes against any thing that is China also I doubt Indian government is all to pleased with what is going on near there border)

Buddy you seem completely lost.

May I remind you AGAIN that Budhism IS an Indian religion. Bhudha IS an avatar of Vishnu according to Vaishnavists (I am one). I would rather have MORE Budhists, for that matter.

Quote"you can go anywhere if your work hard" which is the opposite to Hinduism"

LOL.

Is that why India is a booming economy now? :rolleyes:

Hinduism != Casteism. Casteism ~ feudalism and tribalism which will reduce with providing education and equal economic opportunities to all, NOT by converting to other religion.

Finally, Budhists are less than .01% of India. And an increase of this will be a societal problem to India? :confused:

The more I read your post, it makes less and less sense. And the sentence structures don't help either.

How do you figure? Are you under the impression that we're losing the war any where other than in the Democratic Party?

It's kind of hard to "win" something with no clear, obtainable goals. Very little progress and stability has been achieved. In fact, the conditions there are worse than before the war. So far 2,000 U.S. troops and 27569 Iraqi civilians dead and counting for a pointless and bungled cause. Sure, we got rid of a tyrant, but it's odd how the U.S. is allies with leaders who are just as bad, so it would be hypocritical to point to that as just cause. We jumped into this thing based on a premise people knew was false, and the people we've supposedly liberated hate our guts.

Any remaining support for this thing is based solely on hillbilly pride.

SNIP

Hinduism has reincarnation (well unless your the big Hindu cheese) which depends upon how good you were in a past life so it is fixed Buddhism may be only a small portion of India but it is growing

Buddhism
Buddhism, known in ancient India as Buddha Dharma, originated in northern India in what is today the state of Bihar. It rapidly gained adherents during the Buddha's lifetime. Up to the 9th century, Indian followers numbered in the hundreds of millions. While the exact cause of the decline of Buddhism in India is disputed, it is known that the mingling of Hindu and Buddhist societies in India and the rise of Hindu Vedanta movements began to compete against Buddhism. Many believe that Hinduism's adaptation to Buddhism resulted in Buddhism's rapid decline. Also, Muslim invaders are recorded to have caused massive devastation on monasteries, libraries, and statuary, as they did on Hindu religious life. Many Indian Buddhist populations remained intact in or migrated to places like Sri Lanka, Tibet, and other Asian countries.

Recently, a revival of Buddhism in India has made significant progress. In 1956, B. R. Ambedkar, a freedom fighter during the Indian struggle for independence from the British, and hundreds of thousands of his followers converted to Buddhism in protest against the caste system. Subsequent mass conversions on a lesser scale have occurred since then. Three-quarters of these "neo-Buddhists" live in Maharashtra. Alongside these converts are the Vajrayana Buddhists of Ladakh, Sikkim, and Arunachal Pradesh, a small number of tribal peoples in the region of Bengal, and Tibetan refugees.

the people we've supposedly liberated hate our guts.

and were did you get his information from? views like that are why the Iraqi government (and the people when on the news) have to say we thank you for liberating us too bad no one listens

Hinduism has reincarnation (well unless your the big Hindu cheese) which depends upon how good you were in a past life so it is fixed Buddhism may be only a small portion of India but it is growing

Define "good in past life" and "good in current life".

Is it material goodness or spiritual goodness?

If I am born into a so-called low caste, can I be spiritually well-off compared to a spiritually bereft person born in so-called high caste?

If yes, then I fail to see how it is a punishment for deeds in my past life that I am born in a so-called low caste.

FYI, and I am TIRED of repeating this AGAIN and AGAIN, Hinduism is not casteism. Hindu society (and many other societies for that matter) is casteist. Do NOT confuse between the two.

None of the hindu scriptures of Vedas, Gita, Srimad Bhagavatham and Upanishads talk about caste. They talk about varna which is often mistaken as caste.

If you don't know something, read and ask people, instead of having assumption and declaring statements based on assumptions.

And I still fail to understand how increasing (if at all) Buddhism will cause "societal problems" in India. Budha IS an Indian icon. Budha IS God to me and million other Vaishnavas. Did you even read my posts?

You are talking through your behind, to put it mildly.

SNIP

In 1956, B. R. Ambedkar, a freedom fighter during the Indian struggle for independence from the British, and hundreds of thousands of his followers converted to Buddhism in protest against the caste system.

hmm perhaps you could explain this: Why did these people protest the caste system if it doesn’t actually exist?

In 1956, B. R. Ambedkar, a freedom fighter during the Indian struggle for independence from the British, and hundreds of thousands of his followers converted to Buddhism in protest against the caste system.

hmm perhaps you could explain this: Why did these people protest the caste system if it doesn’t actually exist?

OMG. I mean, Oh my God..

Really, do you read my post AT ALL?

Where did I say that caste system does not exist? I said and I am quoting my post JUST above your post in this VERY SAME page

"I am TIRED of repeating this AGAIN and AGAIN, Hinduism is not casteism. Hindu society (and many other societies for that matter) is casteist. Do NOT confuse between the two."

I give up. You can continue to talk through your behind.