NationStates Jolt Archive

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html

If this wall is built just beyond the border on American soil, I don't think there's much Mexico can do about it.

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html
Referring building a border wall as an "attempt to stop crime on US soil" is a bit lop-sided. I think Canada would have similar right to feel put-off by a border wall, and the US would never hear the end of isolationist jokes.

(Mexico) also is hiring an American public relations firm to improve its image and counter growing U.S. concerns about immigration.
Teehee!

Kinda like how some americans feel they should be able to influence canadian law?

Referring building a border wall as an "attempt to stop crime on US soil" is a bit lop-sided. I think Canada would have similar right to feel put-off by a border wall, and the US would never hear the end of isolationist jokes.


Teehee!
It's a crime to cross into the US illegally. The wall is meant to stop such illegal crossings. Therefore, the wall is meant to stop crime.

Kinda like how some americans feel they should be able to influence canadian law?
Yeah, that's bullshit too. I'm in favor of lobbying to change foreign nation's laws if they violate human rights, but not if they just legalize weed or restrict immigration to a more managable ammount.

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html
Most countries stop invaisons with machine guns. I don't know why a fence/wall is such an awful thing.... (In other words, use ports-of-entry like everyone else in every other country dammit!)

what would be wrong with America being isolationist? :)
it seems most countries (including our own) have a problem with us sticking our noses in other people's business. So why not separate a little?

Mexico could do the same to prevent immigrants from the united states to enter their country.
Why would anyone want to live in a thirth world country like the united states ?

Referring building a border wall as an "attempt to stop crime on US soil" is a bit lop-sided. I think Canada would have similar right to feel put-off by a border wall, and the US would never hear the end of isolationist jokes.


Teehee!

Last I heard, millions of Canadians weren't streaming into the US illegally. Building a giant wall might be a good start, but it would be cheaper to just shoot illegal aliens, wouldn't it?

:fluffle: :mp5: :sniper: :eek:

Lol, if that doesn't inflame the thread, nothing will............

The easiest thing in theory would be to cut off public services for illegal immigrants. Myfeferfrferfbj. It would be difficult to implement.

Last I heard, millions of Canadians weren't streaming into the US illegally. Building a giant wall might be a good start, but it would be cheaper to just shoot illegal aliens, wouldn't it?

Depends. If you use illegal aliens to build the wall, that could be cheaper.

Anyway, the Mexican government reaction is baffling. On one side, they want to pressure the US Congress to not build this wall to the point of forming a block of countries against it, and on the other they reject all intervention of the US government in Mexican affairs, like opening foreign investment in energy. And they treat illegal CentralAmerican aliens like crap.

The Mexican government has to realize that the real problem of the migrants is not in the US, but in Mexico, from where they're being pushed out.

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html
I can't help but notice the irony here. How can mexicans break US law if they're not in the US yet? Entering the US can't be a violation of US law. However, being in the US illegally can be a violation of US law.

Yeah, that's bullshit too. I'm in favor of lobbying to change foreign nation's laws if they violate human rights, but not if they just legalize weed or restrict immigration to a more managable ammount.

Well what do you say to foreign nations that run ad campaigns and hire lobbyist in the US. Is this ok or is this just as despised? Of course assuming that they are not lobbying for human rights.

Depends. If you use illegal aliens to build the wall, that could be cheaper.

.

Could pay them in tortillas rather than dollars.;)

Two ideas, like Iztatepopotla suggested, use these illegal imigrants to build the wall and then kick them out of the country.

The second is the problem that we kick them out, but we just let them go on the other side of the border. I say, if the guy we catch crossing illegally and their from say Cuba or Mexico, we fly them down the Brazil to make it harder for them to try again. More expensive but it will cut down on repeat offenders.

Two ideas, like Iztatepopotla suggested, use these illegal imigrants to build the wall and then kick them out of the country.




Just have them build the wall from their side. Then we dont have to kick them out.

The second is the problem that we kick them out, but we just let them go on the other side of the border. I say, if the guy we catch crossing illegally and their from say Cuba or Mexico, we fly them down the Brazil to make it harder for them to try again. More expensive but it will cut down on repeat offenders.

We could fly them down to Brazil literally-with a catapult.

outraged at US attempts to stop crime on US soil.Our Land our Law.. they can "talk" and be outraged all they want..

They have no rigths to (try)influence our Laws...
Just like we have no rigths to influence the Laws of Bolivia or Singapore.

Our Land our Law.

Just like we have no rigths to influence the Laws of Bolivia or Singapore.
or Iraq?

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html
A country has every right to controll immegration by any humane means, using a wall is deffinatly humane.

Kinda like how some americans feel they should be able to influence canadian law?
The worst thing is the Americans do it in the most underhanded fashion - buying shares of Canadian industry to gain influence.

Our Land our Law.. they can "talk" and be outraged all they want..

They have no rigths to (try)influence our Laws...
Just like we have no rigths to influence the Laws of Bolivia or Singapore.

Our Land our Law.
And yet we try all the time to influence said laws ... through economic or other means

While I agree with your sentiment that we have absolute rights over controlling our immigration saying they have no rights to try to influence us while ignoring what we try to do to the rest of the world is somehow irresponsible

or Iraq?
What about Iraq? It's the 51st state!

The worst thing is the Americans do it in the most underhanded fashion - buying shares of Canadian industry to gain influence.

Well some of the countries in Asia have bought good portions of the US industry to gain influence... is screwing over the US different than screwing over Canada?

The worst thing is the Americans do it in the most underhanded fashion - buying shares of Canadian industry to gain influence.

I hope that was meant to be humorous, because China, Japan, France, and Canada all do the same thing to American companies.

What about Iraq? It's the 51st state!
Maaan! That's gonna get Guam pissed no end.

Well, maybe Guam should build a wall, to gain more attention. Errrrr......

I stick with shooting everyone. They don't come back, leastways.

Reminds me of the good old days of the Berlin Wall.

It never ceases to amaze me people are so against immigration. If it was easier to immigrate to the US, people wouldn't do so illegally. Do you think they do it just for shits and giggles? Make it easier to immigrate legally, and you'll see less illegal immigration. Except I have the feeling a lot of the anti-"illegals" sentiment stems from xenophobia.

Reminds me of the good old days of the Berlin Wall.

It never ceases to amaze me people are so against immigration. If it was easier to immigrate to the US, people wouldn't do so illegally. Do you think they do it just for shits and giggles? Make it easier to immigrate legally, and you'll see less illegal immigration. Except I have the feeling a lot of the anti-"illegals" sentiment stems from xenophobia.
Or maybe it's from a desire to keep wages at a decent level for unskilled workers who are actual citizens of our country. No, you're right. We just hate brown people. It all boils down to that.

The easiest thing in theory would be to cut off public services for illegal immigrants.

they don't use them anyway. it's that whole "fear of authorities cause they'll deport you" thing.

Or maybe it's from a desire to keep wages at a decent level for unskilled workers who are actual citizens of our country.

Yep, trade protectionism. And xenophobia.

Yep, trade protectionism. And xenophobia.
Well excuse me for trying to make sure that the guy who just got laid off from the GM plant can still earn enough landscaping to feed his family. I'm a real asshole for wanting to look out for my countrymen that way.

Or maybe it's from a desire to keep wages at a decent level for unskilled workers who are actual citizens of our country.

well then make with the unionization already. it's the only thing that has ever worked.

and while you are at it, force employers to pay those wages to all workers, documented or not. cause the current system has ruled that they don't have to pay back wages or anything when they are found to be in violation of labor laws but the workers happen to be illegal. which means that there are extra incentives to using illegal labor, on top of the low wages and general powerlessness - mistreat them all you like, cause the supreme court said it's ok.

Reminds me of the good old days of the Berlin Wall.

It never ceases to amaze me people are so against immigration. If it was easier to immigrate to the US, people wouldn't do so illegally. Do you think they do it just for shits and giggles? Make it easier to immigrate legally, and you'll see less illegal immigration. Except I have the feeling a lot of the anti-"illegals" sentiment stems from xenophobia.

Actually... xenophobia has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the fact that the number of illegal immagrants is directly linked to how well we can control our own borders. If we can't keep Jose Mexicana out of the US, how are we supposed to keep Osama out?

As for actual immigration laws, I agree. We should establish an American Foreign Legion. Everyone who wants to become a US citizen and doesn't want to stand in line should be allowed to earn their citizenship through service to the state. Not only will they learn English, but they'll also learn marketable skills, and the government gets some more bullet-stoppers. Everyone wins.

Lastly, that's a false analogy. The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people in East Berlin, not to keep them out of West Berlin. Had the Western powers erected the wall and shot anyone trying to cross, then the analogy would be better.

well then make with the unionization already. it's the only thing that has ever worked.

and while you are at it, force employers to pay those wages to all workers, documented or not. cause the current system has ruled that they don't have to pay back wages or anything when they are found to be in violation of labor laws but the workers happen to be illegal. which means that there are extra incentives to using illegal labor, on top of the low wages and general powerlessness - mistreat them all you like, cause the supreme court said it's ok.
I hear you, but over the last couple of decades the government, at the request of big employers, has passed laws to weaken unions over here.
http://www.ufcw.org/issues_and_actions/state_working_america/rtwlaws.cfm

Plus, even if we "make with the unions" many businesses will hire illegal aliens because it's cheaper than a union employee.

I think the only way to stop the illegal immigrants from Mexico to the US is to make all Mexicans US citizens and annex Mexico. Yeah, we extend our internal problems a bit, but at least the Latinos will shut the hell up!

Actually... xenophobia has nothing to do with it.

I disagree based on how many racists I've seen arguing vehemently for strict border controls with Mexico. Its got SOMETHING to do with it.

It has everything to do with the fact that the number of illegal immagrants is directly linked to how well we can control our own borders. If we can't keep Jose Mexicana out of the US, how are we supposed to be Osama out?

Did Osama enter the country from Mexico? I'm doubting that. I'm also doubting that erecting a wall is the answer to terrorism. They had walls in Israel/Palestine too ya know.


As for actual immigration laws, I agree. We should establish an American Foreign Legion. Everyone who wants to become a US citizen and doesn't want to stand in line should be allowed to earn their citizenship through service to the state. Not only will they learn English, but they'll also learn marketable skills, and the government gets some more bullet-stoppers. Everyone wins.

We can tie that in to firing the NYC transit workers too. They don't want the job, fine, there are plenty of people who do.


Lastly, that's a false analogy. The Berlin Wall was meant to keep people in East Berlin, not to keep them [i]out[/] of West Berlin. Had the Western powers erected the wall and shot anyone trying to cross, then the analogy would be better.

Ehh. This is just the same as keeping Mexicans IN Mexico. And its not really an analogy, I just said the idea reminded me of the Berlin Wall, which it still does.

Actually... xenophobia has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the fact that the number of illegal immagrants is directly linked to how well we can control our own borders. If we can't keep Jose Mexicana out of the US, how are we supposed to be Osama out?

nah, that's just the new facade that has been put up over the xenophobia. it has somewhat replaced the older two ("they took our jobs!" and "omg noes, the war on drugs!"), which replaced the earlier "they'll rape our women!", which replaced the earlier "we hate spain", etc.

I think the only way to stop the illegal immigrants from Mexico to the US is to make all Mexicans US citizens and annex Mexico. Yeah, we extend our internal problems a bit, but at least the Latinos will shut the hell up!
Wrong. Then we'll just have the Guatemalans, El Salvadorans, etc. crossing our border to the South. We need to annex the whole world.

I disagree based on how many racists I've seen arguing vehemently for strict border controls with Mexico. Its got SOMETHING to do with it.

So... is TIME Magazine racist? Correlation does not prove causation. There are many reasons to want tighter border controls on the Mexican border.

You know there's something wrong when President Bush says that he's "not aware of an immigration problem in Texas" (or words to that effect). The simple fact is that the ranches and farms on the Mexican border get trashed by illegal immigrants and they respond by forming vigilance squads. I know plenty of them don't even feel like they can walk out on their own land after dark with out carrying a semi-automatic rifle.

Did Osama enter the country from Mexico? I'm doubting that. I'm also doubting that erecting a wall is the answer to terrorism. They had walls in Israel/Palestine too ya know.

No, they've come in through Canada (usually) and our airports (occasionally) but there's no reason why they can't get in through Mexico.

As for the walls in Israel, they're still under construction. And you'll note that terrorist attacks in Israel have started dropping off.

We can tie that in to firing the NYC transit workers too. They don't want the job, fine, there are plenty of people who do.

Indeed. Why pay a bus driver $47,000 a year when you can pay an illegal less than half that amount and they'll be happy with it.

Ehh. This is just the same as keeping Mexicans IN Mexico. And its not really an analogy, I just said the idea reminded me of the Berlin Wall, which it still does.

Except we don't care if they stay in Mexico. They could go to Canada or Guatemala for all we care. The communists wouldn't have cared whether it was Berlin or New York or Tokyo that they had a border with. They wanted to keep people in their own nation. A better use of the analogy would be if Mexico were building the wall, not the US.

nah, that's just the new facade that has been put up over the xenophobia. it has somewhat replaced the older two ("they took our jobs!" and "omg noes, the war on drugs!"), which replaced the earlier "they'll rape our women!", which replaced the earlier "we hate spain", etc.

Nice to be informed by a complete stranger that I'm xenophobic. Which is why I'm studying German and plan on travelling the world, including a stint teaching Japanese to speak English, whoops! Can't do that. I'm a xenophobe! Thanks for informing me.

My reasons for supporting the wall would be simple: It will cut down on illegal immigration and make things safer for everyone, with out violating anyone's constitutional freedoms.

My second reason is that it's our border, we can do whatever we want with it, the Mexican government can go hump a log for all I care.

And finally, most people I know who would want a wall (and many of them want more, like automated machine guns), want it that way because the illegals don't pay taxes, but enjoy all the rights and privileges (except voting, but few legals take advantage of that) that those taxes provide. It is not, as far as I know, linked to racism in anyway.

Wall won't keep people out unless you have people watching it.

Mexico should have its panties in a bunch its in its national intrest to get its people over the border into America so they can live better lives.

Bush won't do anything really strong against illegal aliens, his too liberal in that department.

And hell you could even have the damn wetbacks build the wall then march em out and shoot em all, their not citizens of the US they aren't protected by the US constitution, they entered illegally so they have no rights.

Wait wait bullets would cost to much, bayonet em like Napoleon and the Turk prisoners he took in Egypt. (And that is something America can learn from Europe :) hahaha)

illegals don't pay taxes, but enjoy all the rights and privileges (except voting, but few legals take advantage of that) that those taxes provide. It is not, as far as I know, linked to racism in anyway.

other than it being objectively false and an obious lie largely spread by people with ties to xenophobic and neo-nazi groups, at least.

illegals pay sales taxes, property taxes, and payroll taxes - and despite the fact that most of them would actually get a refund on those, they never claim it.

not all people who complain about illegal immigration are nazis, but those that that actually make a big deal out of it, and actually organize efforts against it tend to be. for example, the minuteman project is largely an outgrowth of the earlier explicitly xenophobic border militias, which grew out of the white supremacist 'patriot' militias.

Why would anyone want to live in a thirth world country like the united states ?
watch it, jerk.

Entering the US can't be a violation of US law. However, being in the US illegally can be a violation of US law.

yes it can. look it up

Make it easier to immigrate legally, and you'll see less illegal immigration.

taht makes so little sense it s incredible. the problem is not the leagality, it's the fact ath these people are crossing are borders. by legalizing it, we would just increase the flow of immagrants.

In my opinion, we should shut down almost all immigration.

it would help ensure safety, and protect jobs for us citizens.

other than it being objectively false and an obious lie largely spread by people with ties to xenophobic and neo-nazi groups, at least.

You would know this because you associate with so many skinheads and facists?

illegals pay sales taxes, property taxes, and payroll taxes - and despite the fact that most of them would actually get a refund on those, they never claim it.

They don't pay Payroll taxes. If they did, the government would be aware that they're there (since the employer would suddenly be employing someone). Sales taxes go to the state, not the Federal government (who taxes more), and illegals can't own property in the US, so they don't pay property taxes.

Even if the government did know, they wouldn't give a rip. The companies that benefit the most from the labors of illegals tend to be on the large and wealthy side and they tend to give very generously to both parties.

not all people who complain about illegal immigration are nazis,

Don't forget the theorem that the first person to mention Nazis losses the debate.

but those that that actually make a big deal out of it, and actually organize efforts against it tend to be.

So are you implying that anyone who gets sick of government incompetence is likely to be a facist?

for example, the minuteman project is largely an outgrowth of the earlier explicitly xenophobic border militias, which grew out of the white supremacist 'patriot' militias.

I haven't seen any proof that the Minuteman Project is an outgrowth of white supremecist militias. Most of what I see is a buncha old guys and gals meadering along the border with cell phones and binoculars. (There's also a Minuteman Project that operates along the border with Canada. Being a Montanan, I get to know about these people first hand.)

Now, yes, there are a lot of facists and ultra-nationalists and other such 'xenophobes' who dislike illegals and want to crack down on them. But, by not supporting an American wall, you're also supporting slavery.

Yes, that's right, slavery. Large corporations pay 'overseers' ('coyotes', I believe is the term) to bring in illegals and perform labor for them. The illegals themselves get nothing and the corporation pays relatively little to the coyote. What's more, the coyote doesn't care about the people he's hauling, they could all die for all he cares. Finding people who want to get to the US is easy.

Then there are the other illegals brought in by US citizens to be used for sexual slavery. Not too long ago, a man was arrested in Florida for keeping four illegals as slaves. Granted, this problem is not wholly to do with Mexico, but Mexico is still a contributing factor.

You would know this because you associate with so many skinheads and facists?



They don't pay Payroll taxes. If they did, the government would be aware that they're there (since the employer would suddenly be employing someone). Sales taxes go to the state, not the Federal government (who taxes more), and illegals can't own property in the US, so they don't pay property taxes.

Even if the government did know, they wouldn't give a rip. The companies that benefit the most from the labors of illegals tend to be on the large and wealthy side and they tend to give very generously to both parties.



Don't forget the theorem that the first person to mention Nazis losses the debate.



So are you implying that anyone who gets sick of government incompetence is likely to be a facist?



I haven't seen any proof that the Minuteman Project is an outgrowth of white supremecist militias. Most of what I see is a buncha old guys and gals meadering along the border with cell phones and binoculars. (There's also a Minuteman Project that operates along the border with Canada. Being a Montanan, I get to know about these people first hand.)

Now, yes, there are a lot of facists and ultra-nationalists and other such 'xenophobes' who dislike illegals and want to crack down on them. But, by not supporting an American wall, you're also supporting slavery.

Yes, that's right, slavery. Large corporations pay 'overseers' ('coyotes', I believe is the term) to bring in illegals and perform labor for them. The illegals themselves get nothing and the corporation pays relatively little to the coyote. What's more, the coyote doesn't care about the people he's hauling, they could all die for all he cares. Finding people who want to get to the US is easy.

Then there are the other illegals brought in by US citizens to be used for sexual slavery. Not too long ago, a man was arrested in Florida for keeping four illegals as slaves. Granted, this problem is not wholly to do with Mexico, but Mexico is still a contributing factor.
You, good sir, win the smartest person in the thread prize. Here is your prize:

:mp5: from everyone who dosn't agree with you;)

Landmines would do the trick just as well. Or an acid-filled moat.

...a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings...
Hihihihihi...Americans crack me up sometimes.

A lot of those "racist, neo-nazi" people who are part of the Minuteman Project include a lot of retired police officers, ex-soldiers, ex-fireman, people who actually want to stop illegal immigration and cut down on the crimes caused by criminals from Mexico. I would like to see aperson try to call any of them a racist to their face!
Also, I wouldnt mind to see some more landmines and barbed wire out there on the border. I mean why not? And have in big letters WARNING: YOU ARE ENTERING A MINEFIELD written in Spanish and English, so if anyone gets killed, they cant claim that they were not informed. Also, toss in some gators or crocs into the river! We wont have to feed them on the plus side! :P

Hihihihihi...Americans crack me up sometimes.
Yeah, because Australia's policy on illegal immigration is so much better, right? Don't they have illegal boat people from Indonesia and Malaysia locked up in prisons? I'm sure Germany welcomes illegals with open arms too, right?

Fact is, no country just leaves it's borders wide open. None of them.

You, good sir, win the smartest person in the thread prize. Here is your prize:

:mp5: from everyone who dosn't agree with you;)

Yay! I'm like Jesus! Only... not. How about Mohammad? I'll take Mohammad. That way I can shoot back.

:sniper:

other than it being objectively false and an obious lie largely spread by people with ties to xenophobic and neo-nazi groups, at least.

illegals pay sales taxes, property taxes, and payroll taxes - and despite the fact that most of them would actually get a refund on those, they never claim it.

not all people who complain about illegal immigration are nazis, but those that that actually make a big deal out of it, and actually organize efforts against it tend to be. for example, the minuteman project is largely an outgrowth of the earlier explicitly xenophobic border militias, which grew out of the white supremacist 'patriot' militias.
For someone who is so well informed, you are either lying or intentionally ignorant.

Illegals pay sales tax only where there are sales taxes. One reason there is such a huge explosion of illegal immigrants in OR is because there is no sales tax.
Unless they own property they don't pay property taxes.
One of the biggest complaints is that illegal immigrants depress the avg wages where they settle. Why is that? Because employers pay them under the table and therefor don't pay payroll taxes.

What did the minuteman project do that was racist or xenophobic? They only observed and reported illegal activity. Not some white supremacist "patriot" militia that you say.

Europe is having problems with immigration too. Its called the EU because guess where all those muslims starting up the riots in France are coming from? Turkey, which under the EU constitution would become a member of Europe and its people would be able to move freely throughout Europe.

Now European's think their so great, so they say "Why don't these muslims want to become like us and adapt?". Well news for the Europeans they don't. Hell they don't like your government's or culture's at all, so we're goin to see more riots like those in France till Europe is governed like the Middle East.

(And for you Europeans who think the EU is a good idea, let me pose a question to ya. How do you think all your crap economy's can combine into one giant economy to compete with the US? Your just making yourselves easier to dominate under the US Hemegon. You all unite to "compete" and your economy will tank even faster and you will fall to the US hemegon even faster then you already are.)

(this does not apply to Britian........ yay Brits!)

It's a crime to cross into the US illegally. The wall is meant to stop such illegal crossings. Therefore, the wall is meant to stop crime.

there is a difference between something being a crime or being illegal. It is the difference between driving high speed or driving high speed and hitting a passerby maiming him.

Europe is having problems with immigration too. Its called the EU because guess where all those muslims starting up the riots in France are coming from? Turkey, which under the EU constitution would become a member of Europe and its people would be able to move freely throughout Europe.

From what I read, most of those rioters were from north africa. Do you have a reference about them coming from Turkey?

They are originally from that region yes, but from my understanding it is much easier to enter Europe from Turkey. (The bit about the people of Turkey being able to move freely is the reason why FRANCE, and some of the Low Countries would not vote to ratify the EU const. this past year.)

Its much like someone originally being from Iran, they move to Mexico (or canada) live there for several years then sneak into the US. Its easier to get into the US from a bordering country not fly directly.

Yeah, because Australia's policy on illegal immigration is so much better, right? Don't they have illegal boat people from Indonesia and Malaysia locked up in prisons?
Yes, and don't you for one second suggest that I deem that okay. Personally I consider these camps to be concentration camps, and I have personally spit at someone because they told me they once worked at one as a security guard.

I'm sure Germany welcomes illegals with open arms too, right?
Well, no. That's largely EU Policy, with which I don't agree either. Nonetheless, it is a lot easier to get into Germany than it is to get into Australia. Especially if you're Turkish. :p

Europe is having problems with immigration too.
That is true. Personally I'd open all borders to everyone, but the politicians didn't quite get that one yet.

Its called the EU because guess where all those muslims starting up the riots in France are coming from? Turkey, which under the EU constitution would become a member of Europe and its people would be able to move freely throughout Europe.
Well, no.

Now European's think their so great, so they say "Why don't these muslims want to become like us and adapt?". Well news for the Europeans they don't. Hell they don't like your government's or culture's at all, so we're goin to see more riots like those in France till Europe is governed like the Middle East.
That is the central issue that needs to be addressed. Building a wall ain't going to do it though. It just feeds the type that likes to blame "illegals" for the bad decisions made at home.

And for you Europeans who think the EU is a good idea, let me pose a question to ya. How do you think all your crap economy's can combine into one giant economy to compete with the US?
a) What crap economies?
b) By getting together (done), opening borders to free trade and movement of individuals (done), simplifying everything by creating a common currency (done) and watching EU GDP be bigger than US GDP (done).

Your just making yourselves easier to dominate under the US Hemegon. You all unite to "compete" and your economy will tank even faster and you will fall to the US hemegon even faster then you already are.
And your rationale for this is?

(this does not apply to Britian........ yay Brits!)
:rolleyes:

there is a difference between something being a crime or being illegal. It is the difference between driving high speed or driving high speed and hitting a passerby maiming him.
Ummm no, there is no difference between something being a crime and it being illegal.
Why do you suppose there is a law against driving high speed, and why do you think police enforce that law?
It's to prevent the killing or maiming said passerby.

Preventing crime from occuring is much better than cleaning up the mess after the crime happens, don't you think?

If you could prevent a murder, isn't that better than waiting for the murder to happen and then arrest the criminal?

if one company is allowed to outsorce to another country and sell their products free of tax by free trade agreements to improve their standards then free immigration should also be legal so workers can also get better standards. It would stop outsourcing. In the beginning there would be a little chaos but what would be china with no one to work?

there is a difference between something being a crime or being illegal. It is the difference between driving high speed or driving high speed and hitting a passerby maiming him.

The difference between those is going to court for a speeing ticket and going to court for vehicular assault/assault with a deadly weapon. They're both illegal. They're both crimes. The only difference is that one got someone in a hospital, while the other had the potential to get someone in the hospital. That's why we have speed limits in the first place. To keep people from going to the hospital. Or the morgue.

You would know this because you associate with so many skinheads and facists?

or because i keep tabs on the fuckers

They don't pay Payroll taxes. If they did, the government would be aware that they're there (since the employer would suddenly be employing someone). Sales taxes go to the state, not the Federal government (who taxes more), and illegals can't own property in the US, so they don't pay property taxes.

illegals often get jobs with false papers (sometimes provided by their employers, but often not), and taxes are taken from their pay. according to the fine people with social security, about 3/4 of illegal immigrants are paying payroll taxes.

sales taxes are still taxes, no matter who collects them.

anybody who lives somewhere is paying property taxes. rentals have property taxes too, you know.

Don't forget the theorem that the first person to mention Nazis losses the debate.

actually, it says that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html

any addendum about 'losing' wouldn't apply in a topic where actual neo-nazi's are germane

I haven't seen any proof that the Minuteman Project is an outgrowth of white supremecist militias.

you mean other than the fact that it's leaders were members of them? or that they use the same rhetoric and tactics? or that the national alliance, aryan nations, storm-fronteers, and pals formed the core of their supporters and participants?

They dont have to worry, no one will ever do anything about the illegal immigrant problem.

Ok Neu lets look at Europes unemployment rate. Lets look at Frances for example. France's unemployment rate hovers at around 10% (The US's hovers at around 4%) but it is currently at 12.9%(the US's is 4.9%). Europes overall economic growth on average is about 1% per year (With exception to Ireland which is at about 6%). The US's economic growth on average is about 4%. The EU will also probably take in the Eastern Bloc, which will be devestating.

(And who is going to be in charge of the EU's economy? The bigger slower economies of Germany and France which are tanking)

What Europe is trying to do is what America did in the late 18th C (The Constitution brought the states together) with a few big exceptions:

A. Europes Socialist (With exception to Ireland and I don't think their a member of the EU are they?).

B. Europe's population is in steep decline (w/exception to Albania), and immigration is being depended on to replace native born Europeans. These immigrants are Middle-eastern or African born and muslim. They do not hold the same things dear as native born Europeans. And with laws like the religiously opressive laws that France has on the books they aren't going to live under your native governments long.

Ummm no, there is no difference between something being a crime and it being illegal.
Why do you suppose there is a law against driving high speed, and why do you think police enforce that law?
It's to prevent the killing or maiming said passerby.

Preventing crime from occuring is much better than cleaning up the mess after the crime happens, don't you think?

If you could prevent a murder, isn't that better than waiting for the murder to happen and then arrest the criminal?

When you pay a fine you are not a criminal. You offended the law but not to such an extent that it is a crime. A crime is like theft, murder, etc. It implies a victim and your conscience to offend either by omission or action. I dont know now if you make a distinction between what we call a crime and an illegal or offending act. When you get a parking ticket you offended the law and as a consequence you get fined but it isnt a crime as it does not go into your criminal record.

... I wish you'd hurry up and put up walls all 'round your property, USians. Your back yard looks like shit from our house anyway.

Will you be boarding up and blocking out your coastlines, too?

Just wondering.

Ok Neu lets look at Europes unemployment rate. Lets look at Frances for example. France's unemployment rate hovers at around 10% (The US's hovers at around 4%) but it is currently at 12.9%(the US's is 4.9%). Europes overall economic growth on average is about 1% per year (With exception to Ireland which is at about 6%). The US's economic growth on average is about 4%.
Did I say anything about unemployment? The EU economy is bigger than the US economy, albeit in a less healthy state. The problems concerning various EU countries face are defined, and at least in Germany's case, are certainly not terminal.
The next French President will probably go all Thatcher on France's arse, and then they'll take off again. All in all, there is no reason to call the EU economy crap.

The EU will also probably take in the Eastern Bloc, which will be devestating.
Why? The Eastern Bloc is going great. And besides, the EU won't grow for an age and a half.

A. Europes Socialist (With exception to Ireland and I don't think their a member of the EU are they?).
No, Europe is not socialist, nor has it ever been. Yes, Ireland is in the EU, and their growth is in large part due to them joining.

B. Europe's population is in steep decline (w/exception to Albania), and immigration is being depended on to replace native born Europeans.
No, the only population actually in decline is in Russia. There is no negative population growth in any European country. Immigration numbers AFAIK have not significantly increased either - Immigrants just had children.

They do not hold the same things dear as native born Europeans.
Which, as I said before, is one of the most central problems Europe faces. But it will be solved, one way or another.
And even if the EU became a Caliphate...it'd still have a larger economy. ;)

And finally: What does this have to do with building a wall(!) to keep brown people out?

PS: And please use Quote Tags.

or because i keep tabs on the fuckers

So you work for the Southern Poverty Institute? Or someone else?

illegals often get jobs with false papers (sometimes provided by their employers, but often not), and taxes are taken from their pay. according to the fine people with social security, about 3/4 of illegal immigrants are paying payroll taxes.

Tell me, why should I believe a nigh-bankrupt arm of the government? The simple fact is that no one knows how many illegals there are. They can estimate, but they don't know. Any statistics would be little more useful than providing statistics on how many insurgents there are in Iraq. No one knows, we can only guess. Because no one knows, the folks down at Social Security cannot say that three-quarters of all illegals pay payroll taxes.

sales taxes are still taxes, no matter who collects them.

Except for the fact that those taxes aren't going to the Federal government, who provides the services used by those illegals. Further, not all states have sales taxes. The state I live in doesn't.

anybody who lives somewhere is paying property taxes. rentals have property taxes too, you know.

You don't have to pay property taxes if you're living in someone else's house as their servant. You don't have to pay property taxes if you live in a condemned building or on the curb of a street. You only pay property taxes if you have your own address. And, if what I hear about the minimum wage not being a livable wage, and if the reason illegals get work simply because they'll work for less than minimum wage, tell me how illegals could possibly be able to afford their own taxable property.

actually, it says that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html

any addendum about 'losing' wouldn't apply in a topic where actual neo-nazi's are germane

Whichever. Your use of Nazi-ism shows a complete lack of originality. Around the time someone says something is just like what the Nazis did, I stop listening. Mostly because those people are completely full of shit.

You could have used Soviets, instead. They killed a lot more people for a lot more reasons than the Nazis did. Or has your name biased you against it?

you mean other than the fact that it's leaders were members of them? or that they use the same rhetoric and tactics? or that the national alliance, aryan nations, storm-fronteers, and pals formed the core of their supporters and participants?

The day I see a neo-Nazi walking around with a cell phone and a pair of binocs, patrolling an urban neighborhood, and just getting the urge to call the cops about gangs breaking into buildings, I'll believe you.

And finally: What does this have to do with building a wall(!) to keep brown people out?

It worked with varitable success for the Chinese. It ought to work for us, too.

For someone who is so well informed, you are either lying or intentionally ignorant.

Illegals pay sales tax only where there are sales taxes.

not according to the federal government

What did the minuteman project do that was racist or xenophobic? They only observed and reported illegal activity. Not some white supremacist "patriot" militia that you say.

you must have missed the rather public split in the group. james chase split his group off in part because (http://www.calnews.com/archives/contreras273.htm):

"You have murderers in your ranks. You have Nazi's, other anti-Jews, and anti-hispanic racists side by side with you. You are whom you run around with. Proud to be a Minuteman now? You may not be so proud in the future."

not to mention the long history of all of these border vigilante groups. the minutemen didn't spring forth fully formed, but developed out of groundwork laid by decades of racist right-wing extremist organizing.

When do we get OUR border walled up?

Can't happen soon enough for me.

Idiots.

When do we get OUR border walled up?

Can't happen soon enough for me.

Idiots.

Who is this 'we'? And who are the 'idiots'?

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just stupid, but I think you should be more specific.

Sorry, I refuse to elaborate on the grounds that people seriously lacking a sense of humour would start throwing shitfits.:p

Whichever. Your use of Nazi-ism shows a complete lack of originality. Around the time someone says something is just like what the Nazis did, I stop listening. Mostly because those people are completely full of shit.

You could have used Soviets, instead. They killed a lot more people for a lot more reasons than the Nazis did. Or has your name biased you against it?

The day I see a neo-Nazi walking around with a cell phone and a pair of binocs, patrolling an urban neighborhood, and just getting the urge to call the cops about gangs breaking into buildings, I'll believe you.

why would i talk about the stalinists, when actual nazis are the ones involved in the goddamn minuteman project? i'm not making a comparison, i am pointing out reality.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-792199.jpg


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally%202-709064.jpg

why would i talk about the stalinists, when actual nazis are the ones involved in the goddamn minuteman project? i'm not making a comparison, i am pointing out reality.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-792199.jpg


http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally%202-709064.jpg

Reality is that there are a buncha old guys and gals running around with binocs. The other reality is that ranchers don't feel safe on their own lands, down there. You think that they'd be comfortable with that? Can you blame them for becoming vigilantes, because the government won't pay for the Border Patrol agents nessesary to patrol the border?

So it all comes down to property rights. How dull.

Nothing worth killing people over.

Reality is that there are a buncha old guys and gals running around with binocs.

who just so happen to be hanging out with nazis. actual fucking nazis. nazis who felt comfortable enough to break out the flags and white power music. nazis that did much of the advertising and recruiting for the project. nazis who had developed the whole concept of border militias.

So it all comes down to property rights. How dull.

I never said it was property rights. Let's make you feel unsafe in your own home (or whatever your habitat is). Let's see how you respond to it.

Most of those ranchers don't have a problem with people being on their land. They have a problem with those people being criminals and many of those criminals being armed drug-dealers.

Nothing worth killing people over.

On the contrary, both capitalists and communists gleefully kill others over property rights (their own in the former, and that of others in the latter).

However, I will cede that many of the border militias are made up of neo-Nazis. That doesn't say that a wall shouldn't go up. On the contrary, it tells us one should. Build a wall and the neo-Nazis will suddenly not feel like they should be around. Granted it won't change their opinions, but it will keep them from getting to practice what they preach.

Also, the wall would help keep the Mexican army from accidentally going on manuevers in Texas. Yes, they've actually done that. The Mexican army has, in fact, crossed the border into Texas on accident, when they were supposed to be on manuevers in Mexico. If that doesn't tell you that something's wrong, I don't know what will.

The Mexican army has, in fact, crossed the border into Texas on accident, when they were supposed to be on manuevers in Mexico. If that doesn't tell you that something's wrong, I don't know what will.
Yeah, it'd be horrible if a country wouldn't respect the sovereignty of other nations, hey?

Build a wall around the neo-Nazis, then. Honestly.

Yeah, it'd be horrible if a country wouldn't respect the sovereignty of other nations, hey?

The United States invaded Iraq in March 2003. I was against the war in January of 2003 (if not earlier).

Build a wall around the neo-Nazis, then. Honestly.

That would solve a lot. Give the ACLU's lawyers lots of work, too.

Yeah, it'd be horrible if a country wouldn't respect the sovereignty of other nations, hey?
oy, not with the Iraq hints again!
Pleeze lets not go down this beaten trail again!

Build a wall and the neo-Nazis will suddenly not feel like they should be around. Granted it won't change their opinions, but it will keep them from getting to practice what they preach.

doubtful. there will still be legal immigrants and citizens of color to murder, jewish community centers to shoot up with machine guns, people like myself to attack, and chemical weapons to stockpile.

oy, not with the Iraq hints again!
Pleeze lets not go down this beaten trail again!
I was more talking the CIA and pretty much everyone else...but whatever you wish. Feeling guilty? ;)

doubtful. there will still be legal immigrants and citizens of color to murder, jewish community centers to shoot up with machine guns, people like myself to attack, and chemical weapons to stockpile.

And there's nothing you can do about that but arrest them and throw them in jail and then give them the needle.

Unless you'd be interested in going in with me 50-50 on an anti-Nazi militia.

I was more talking the CIA and pretty much everyone else...but whatever you wish. Feeling guilty? ;)

Except everyone's intelligence agencies do that. Don't forget the quiet deals various governments have with each others intelligence agencies to gather intel on their own citizens, so they can get around legal blocks on spying on their own citizens.

I was more talking the CIA and pretty much everyone else...but whatever you wish. Feeling guilty? ;)
ok ok you got me hahaha!
lol! ;)

That would solve a lot. Give the ACLU's lawyers lots of work, too.
*sigh*

No, not literally. Find ways to encourage these pillocks to move to one or two areas, then subtly fence them in. Hell, they'll be only too happy to fence themselves in, which really is the idea. Just fire their imaginations with some carefully calculated misinformation and they'll move to wherever you want them to go.

Except everyone's intelligence agencies do that. Don't forget the quiet deals various governments have with each others intelligence agencies to gather intel on their own citizens, so they can get around legal blocks on spying on their own citizens.
Well, ok. The CIA has just been particularly brazen with some of its involvements in other countries.

Nonetheless, the maneuvre incident was probably an accident. Mexico is not an enemy of the US - and building a wall is almost as silly as the fact that people are actually considering it.

Well, ok. The CIA has just been particularly brazen with some of its involvements in other countries.

Nonetheless, the maneuvre incident was probably an accident. Mexico is not an enemy of the US - and building a wall is almost as silly as the fact that people are actually considering it.

I'm pretty certain it was an accident, too. But, would France respond too kindly if the Bundeswehr was on manuevers and accidentally cross the border? Or would Germany be too happy if the Poles went on manuevers and went into Germany? The last time someone accidentally went on manuevers in Russia (in the late '30s, the Japanese), they got their ass kicked for it.

As for the wall, having lived in the affected region, I know what it's like to live down there and I know most of the people living there would support it. I'd also support an increase (rather than a decrease, for once), in the budget of the INS and the Border Patrol in particular.

And a thousand years from now, we'll have the Great Wall of America, which our ancestors can look upon with nationalistic pride... or something.

Reminds me of the good old days of the Berlin Wall.

It never ceases to amaze me people are so against immigration. If it was easier to immigrate to the US, people wouldn't do so illegally. Do you think they do it just for shits and giggles? Make it easier to immigrate legally, and you'll see less illegal immigration. Except I have the feeling a lot of the anti-"illegals" sentiment stems from xenophobia.


You kidding me dude?? I do it for shits and giggles. Me and my family go down and across the border and back by jumping the line. its fun as hell.


Anyways yeah unless Mexico becomes a communist/dictatorship/insert any unlike formed of goverment. The mexicans can look forward to getting grappling hooks.

Well, ok. The CIA has just been particularly brazen with some of its involvements in other countries.

Nonetheless, the maneuvre incident was probably an accident. Mexico is not an enemy of the US - and building a wall is almost as silly as the fact that people are actually considering it.

I still dont like the idea of people crossing our border illegaly, then expecting the US Gov to give them everything on a golden platter because they deserve it. Anyone who disrespects our soverenty, our borders and our laws has no right to be coming over here illegaly and expceting us to come to them with open arms. Our country's border line is simply not a suggestion. Why do we crack down on someone who is a US citizen trying to sneak back into the US, but a few yards away, we allow someone to come in who doesnt speak the language, is not a US citizen and got here illegally, to get a job, healthcare and other benefits?

*sigh*

No, not literally. Find ways to encourage these pillocks to move to one or two areas, then subtly fence them in. Hell, they'll be only too happy to fence themselves in, which really is the idea. Just fire their imaginations with some carefully calculated misinformation and they'll move to wherever you want them to go.

Most of them already live in fenced off compounds away from major cities and most of their neighbors.

I think we should also lob a few mortars in their general direction,
you know, just fer shits and giggles!
;)

But, would France respond too kindly if the Bundeswehr was on manuevers and accidentally cross the border? Or would Germany be too happy if the Poles went on manuevers and went into Germany?
Well, I don't think any of those three countries actually do maneuvres alone anymore. It's all part of NATO, and more specifically the European Rapid Reaction Force.

As for the wall, having lived in the affected region, I know what it's like to live down there and I know most of the people living there would support it.
Sure, it sounds great. But it's all psychological, a victory for those that don't like immigrants.
I've had to deal with a lot of people who would say "Oh, I don't mind Turkish people...but they took our jobs, they don't speak the language, and they eat funny things, and they might be Terrorists etc etc". And on some level, everyone who is concerned enough with this (which doesn't really harm anyone but the people who have to deal with criminals to get across) is one of that type of people.

And why shouldn't the Mexicans dig a tunnel underneith? It's a few thousand kms of desert afterall.

I still dont like the idea of people crossing our border illegaly, then expecting the US Gov to give them everything on a golden platter because they deserve it.
I don't think they are asking for anything but a job that pays them a few dollars an hour to send back to their families.
Fact of the matter is that they wouldn't even be there if it didn't benefit everyone involved.
The Coyotes make money (and a proper free trade agreement with provisions for the free traffic of people would end their business immediately), the Mexican immigrants get to help out their families and start a new life, the Mexicans at home get the extra money and American businesses get the cheap labour they've relied on for many years now.

Most of them already live in fenced off compounds away from major cities and most of their neighbors.
Okay then, it's a question of ensuring they remain sequestered. Might I suggest drugging the local water supply?

You are forgetting that we are patting people on the head for breaking our laws.
I do not like it when people break laws, even if it is (in their eyes) for a good cause. But if we should allow them to continue crossing illegally, then whats the point of haveing a border if are not going to enforce it?

Okay then, it's a question of ensuring they remain sequestered. Might I suggest drugging the local water supply?
NO!
Mortars!!! lol!

But if we should allow them to continue crossing illegally, then whats the point of haveing a border if are not going to enforce it?
There is no point!

Well, I don't think any of those three countries actually do maneuvres alone anymore. It's all part of NATO, and more specifically the European Rapid Reaction Force.

But you know what I meant. How would Iran react if the US went on manuevers and accidentally crossed their line in the sand?

Sure, it sounds great. But it's all psychological, a victory for those that don't like immigrants.
I've had to deal with a lot of people who would say "Oh, I don't mind Turkish people...but they took our jobs, they don't speak the language, and they eat funny things, and they might be Terrorists etc etc". And on some level, everyone who is concerned enough with this (which doesn't really harm anyone but the people who have to deal with criminals to get across) is one of that type of people.

Psychological victories are all that matter when one cannot win a victory in any other fashion. The only real victories are psychological ones, after all. But building a wall would also act as a deterrent for illegals.

And illegals do harm people. When they cross the border, they are often led by coyotes, who are often bringing drugs across, too. If you're unfortunate to see one of these coyotes, well, your number's up. On top of this, they tend to leave trash scattered all over the land belonging to American ranchers and farmers.

And why shouldn't the Mexicans dig a tunnel underneith? It's a few thousand kms of desert afterall.

They do do that. Mostly for the drug trade. It's one of the more serious concerns of the Border Patrol, and very difficult to crack down on, as it requires the aid of Mexican Federal police operating on the other side of the border to work in cooperation. The money drained by hunting these tunnels is a further drain on resources that could keep more traditional coyotes and drug-runners at bay.

I don't think they are asking for anything but a job that pays them a few dollars an hour to send back to their families.
Fact of the matter is that they wouldn't even be there if it didn't benefit everyone involved.

I don't have a problem with what they want. I have a problem with the criminals who run drugs and possibly even terrorists (as well as, perhaps, illegal firearms) across the border. However, I think that a better way to go would be an American Foreign Legion (as I mentioned in an earlier post). The illegals get to learn English, become American citizens, learn marketable skills, and they would get to send a sizable portion of their paycheck back home (since the government would provide them with most of what they need).

The Coyotes make money (and a proper free trade agreement with provisions for the free traffic of people would end their business immediately), the Mexican immigrants get to help out their families and start a new life, the Mexicans at home get the extra money and American businesses get the cheap labour they've relied on for many years now.

The coyotes make money off of human flesh. That's wrong no matter how you cut it. Having said that, I believe in true free trade. Which is something that you, also, cannot sell in the US.

So when can I look forward to the full Christo treatment? The complete walling of the continental United States? C'mon, c'mon... times a' wasting.

There's bricks and mortar to be put in place, I tells ya.

So when can I look forward to the full Christo treatment? The complete walling of the continental United States? C'mon, c'mon... times a' wasting.

There's bricks and mortar to be put in place, I tells ya.

So, do you like when people come into your backyard, and start doing drugs, drinking, trashing it all up, and using it as a walkway? No thanks. Thats why there are fences, to keep unwanted people and things off of your property.

The government and many people in Mexico have their collective panties in a bunch over a US government plan to erect walls to curtail illegal border crossings. It seems the people of Mexico have come to believe that they have some right to break US law.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/20/D8EK9N0G6.html

let'm complain. What the hell are they going to do about it?

Wrong. Then we'll just have the Guatemalans, El Salvadorans, etc. crossing our border to the South. We need to annex the whole world.
Annex only to Panamá and the border there is like 50 km. Much easier to control, although it's a lot of jungle and mountain.

let'm complain. What the hell are they going to do about it?
With the ammount of immagrents already in the country ... possibly more then you think

Mexico outraged at US attempts to stop crime on US soil

look at it from the point of view of mexico and Mexicans. We have used and abused them for two hundred or more years as a source of cheap and ready labor. we have a HUGE economy based on illegals . We support a huge portion of Mexico's economy because we support illegals who in turn send money home to pappa or momma . We do everything but advertise on Mexican TV for them to come to the US for a job ....the FACTS of the billions of dollars that illegals are paid by US business owners advertise bettewr than TV...


So put up a wall ...but leave the rest of the system untouched....Is it any wonder they are a bit miffed ?

look at it from the point of view of mexico and Mexicans. We have used and abused them for two hundred or more years as a source of cheap and ready labor. we have a HUGE economy based on illegals . We support a huge portion of Mexico's economy because we support illegals who in turn send money home to pappa or momma . We do everything but advertise on Mexican TV for them to come to the US for a job ....the FACTS of the billions of dollars that illegals are paid by US business owners advertise bettewr than TV...


So put up a wall ...but leave the rest of the system untouched....Is it any wonder they are a bit miffed ?
Then come in legally. It's that simple.

there is a difference between something being a crime or being illegal. It is the difference between driving high speed or driving high speed and hitting a passerby maiming him.
There are penalties for both and there are precautions taken to prevent both. Building a border wall is a precaution to prevent illegal immigration.

if one company is allowed to outsorce to another country and sell their products free of tax by free trade agreements to improve their standards then free immigration should also be legal so workers can also get better standards. It would stop outsourcing. In the beginning there would be a little chaos but what would be china with no one to work?
But it would have the same net effect of driving down wages for the working poor in the USA, and it would expose more Mexicans to the risks of human trafficking.

So when can I look forward to the full Christo treatment? The complete walling of the continental United States? C'mon, c'mon... times a' wasting.

There's bricks and mortar to be put in place, I tells ya.
Here's an idea. If you like illegal immigration so much, why doesn't our INS just deport all illegal immigrants in the US to Canada. Let them drive wages down in your neck of the woods.