NationStates Jolt Archive


Moral: Hijack and murder in Germany, not in the US.

Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:04
COMMENTARY: This only serves to make me even more convinced that the US is correct in seeking the death penalty for crimes of terrorism and for insisting that accused and convicted terrorists be extradited to the US. When this SOB shot Robert Stethem, he and his fellow terrorists dumped his body out of the airplane onto the tarmac. He is now free to do the same thing all over again. If I could find him, I'd kill him myself.


Germany releases hijacker
who killed sailor in 1985 (http://www.military.com/earlybrief/0,,,00.html)


http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/9457/stethem3ri.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Steelworker 2nd Class (DV) Rogbert Dean Stethem was murdered by terrorist hijackers in Beirut. — File / AP Photo

BERLIN — A Lebanese man serving a life sentence for the 1985 hijacking of a TWA jetliner and killing of a Navy diver has been paroled after 19 years, a law enforcement official said Tuesday.

Mohammed Ali Hamadi was released from prison and has left Germany, said Doris Moeller-Scheu, spokeswoman for the Frankfurt prosecutor’s office. She said she did not know his destination.

Hamadi’s case came up for a court-mandated review, and he was released after an expert assessment and a hearing, she said.

TWA flight 847 from Athens, Greece, to Rome was hijacked to Beirut, Lebanon, where the hijackers shot Navy Steelworker 2nd Class (DV) Robert Dean Stethem, 23, of Waldorf, Md., and dumped his body on the tarmac.

German federal officials declined to comment extensively and said the case was a matter for state authorities. Justice Ministry spokeswoman Eva Schmierer said Germany did not have any request from the United States for Hamadi’s extradition.

A spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, Martin Jaeger, said there was no connection between Hamadi’s release and the recent freeing of former hostage Susanne Osthoff, a German woman released over the weekend after spending more than three weeks as a captive in Iraq.

Stethem, 23, was beaten and shot on June 15, 1985, while the plane was in Beirut. He was the only casualty during the hijacking ordeal, in which 39 Americans were held hostage for 17 days. He received the Bronze Star and Purple Heart decorations, and a Navy guided missile destroyer is named in his honor.

Hamadi was arrested at the Frankfurt airport on Jan. 13, 1987, when customs officials discovered liquid explosives in his luggage.

U.S. authorities had requested his extradition so he could stand trial in the United States, but the Germans, who have no death penalty, insisted on prosecuting Hamadi.
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 14:19
Out of curiosity, why was he tried in Germany? The flight was between Greece and Italy, the man killed was American, and the hijackers were Lebanese nationals (as far as I can gather). Wait...just saw, arrested at Frankfurt...

Personally I don't think the death penalty is defensible for any crime, even large-scale terrorism, and as such Germany was right in refusing the extradition request by the US, as they had very good grounds to believe he would have faced the death penalty upon conviction.
NianNorth
21-12-2005, 14:24
As much as I understand your point of view, the crimes he commited were in other sovereign states.

What do you think about the release of Loyalist and IRA terrorist in Northern Ireland? Who says terrorism doesn't work? Make gestures of peace, get a load of mis informed New yorkers on your side and you can murder and maim who ever you like. What's better you can get said New Yakrfers to pay for it all.

And in a terrible way what goes around comes around.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:30
As much as I understand your point of view, the crimes he commited were in other sovereign states.
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:
NianNorth
21-12-2005, 14:36
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:
Hmm. Not that unexpected a response.

So you agree then that those who had husbands, wives and children (and unborn children) murdered by the IRA would be within thier rights to go to New York etc and hunt down and kill anyone who ever supported 'the struggle' that is the struggle against democracy?

Me I would say no, but from your previous response it can only be a yes from you.
Non Aligned States
21-12-2005, 14:36
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:

Oh? And if an American kills a national from somewhere else? I can easily think of one case where an american caused the deaths of some 20 people. He was tried but had no conviction whatsoever. Not even a fine for compensation of the bereaved families.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:37
Hmm. Not that unexpected a response.

So you agree then that those who had husbands, wives and children (and unborn children) murdered by the IRA would be within thier rights to go to New York etc and hunt down and kill anyone who ever supported 'the struggle' that is the struggle against democracy?

Me I would say no, but from your previous response it can only be a yes from you.
That would be up to them and their government. I can't speak for the citizens of other nations, only the ones in the US. It's where I was born and raised and now currently live.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:38
Oh? And if an American kills a national from somewhere else? I can easily think of one case where an american caused the deaths of some 20 people. He was tried but had no conviction whatsoever.
"Caused?" He was tried? Apparently he was found "not guilty." That's the legal requirement for being punished, you know ... that the defendant be found guilty. :rolleyes:
Non Aligned States
21-12-2005, 14:40
"Caused?" He was tried? Apparently he was found "not guilty." That's the legal requirement for being punished, you know ... that the defendant be found guilty. :rolleyes:

Oh, he was found not guilty of manslaughter if that is what you mean. But there is no denying the fact that the deaths were directly caused by him. Much like it would be case if I rammed someone with a car now wouldn't it?
Cannot think of a name
21-12-2005, 14:41
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:
Leaves an interesting loop when an American kills an American, once the ball's rolling we're bone...
NianNorth
21-12-2005, 14:43
That would be up to them and their government. I can't speak for the citizens of other nations, only the ones in the US. It's where I was born and raised and now currently live.
You did not answer the question. Should other countries and peoples have the same standards and would that be acceptable to you? Or when the father who lost is wife, daughter and unborn grandchild in a bombing comes to NY and kills the peole who helped pay for their murders that would be ok? It would be ok to extradite all those people to the uk to face charges of supporting international terrorism? And under your system face the death penalty?
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:44
Oh, he was found not guilty of manslaughter if that is what you mean. But there is no denying the fact that the deaths were directly caused by him. Much like it would be case if I rammed someone with a car now wouldn't it?
Not being familiar with the case, I couldn't form any sort of opinion from the few facts you've presented. What part of "not guilty" is it difficult for you to understand?
Monkeypimp
21-12-2005, 14:45
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:


Strangely other countries don't put Americans on their own special pedistal when it comes to their justice system.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:45
Leaves an interesting loop when an American kills an American, once the ball's rolling we're bone...
Quite being so damned disengenuous. You know what I mean. :p
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 14:47
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead :mad:
Are you familiar with the concept of forgiveness? Or with the quote: 'An eye for an eye would leave us all blind'?
To turn it round, if you were to kill an Englishman, for whatever reason, I would be appalled, as murder is not a nice thing (:rolleyes: you know what I mean), but it wouldn't make me want to even hurt you, as it would achieve nothing. Vengeance is not necessarily justice.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:53
Are you familiar with the concept of forgiveness? Or with the quote: 'An eye for an eye would leave us all blind'? To turn it round, if you were to kill an Englishman, for whatever reason, I would be appalled, as murder is not a nice thing ( :rolleyes: you know what I mean), but it wouldn't make me want to even hurt you, as it would achieve nothing. Vengeance is not necessarily justice.
True, but I'm willing to make an exception in cases like this.
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 14:55
True, but I'm willing to make an exception in cases like this.
Which particular part of the case? That it was an American killed? That the body was simply dumped on the Tarmac (what else were they going to do? Have a rotting corpse on the plane with them? Apologies for the lack of respect, but I feel it's an important point)? That they were terrorists? Or that they were Arab terrorists?
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:56
You did not answer the question. Should other countries and peoples have the same standards and would that be acceptable to you? Or when the father who lost is wife, daughter and unborn grandchild in a bombing comes to NY and kills the peole who helped pay for their murders that would be ok? It would be ok to extradite all those people to the uk to face charges of supporting international terrorism? And under your system face the death penalty?
Don't expect me to be entirely rational about this. I can't speak for the citizens or governments of other nations. What they do is entirely up to them. I live in the US. I love my people and spent most of my adult life serving them as a member of the armed forces. Don't expect me to stop now.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 14:58
Which particular part of the case? That it was an American killed? That the body was simply dumped on the Tarmac (what else were they going to do? Have a rotting corpse on the plane with them? Apologies for the lack of respect, but I feel it's an important point)? That they were terrorists? Or that they were Arab terrorists?
That they killed an American. I don't give a shit where they came from or who they were or what their particular delusion was. As I said, as far as I'm concerned, you kill an American, you're dead. Simple.
Non Aligned States
21-12-2005, 15:00
Not being familiar with the case, I couldn't form any sort of opinion from the few facts you've presented. What part of "not guilty" is it difficult for you to understand?

To put it simply, an air force pilot flew his aircraft at low altitudes over a skiing area. The tailfin of the aircraft caught and snapped the lines of a cable car with some 20 people on board. None of them survived and the families wanted him charged.

In his defense, he claimed the area didn't have any ski lift markings on the map. He also claimed not to see the cable.

Against him, the local people claimed that the air force regularly flew their planes very low over the inhabited areas although it is unconfirmed if they complained to the base commander, or if they did, whether it was taken into consideration.

The charge was manslaughter. The verdict was innocent. However, even in the light of not guilty verdicts, lesser charges can still be brought up, and if I am not mistaken, fines/lesser penalties can be applied as a matter of compensation/punishment.

A verdict of not guilty however, does not mean not responsible. Do you remember what happened to the soldiers who drove over a pair of schoolgirls in Korea with a tank? If I am not mistaken, the answer is not much. Would it have been different had they not been soldiers and the vehicle in question was a car?

Or what if the victims had been American? And to make it even more interesting, let us make the victims well connected congressmen.

Would we still see not guilty verdicts?

The US military protects it's own, so long as it can do so and avoid serious consequences.
Gravlen
21-12-2005, 15:01
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:

In every case? Every american? Are you implying that an american life is somehow worth more than others?

Persoally, I don't care what nationality a victim has. If you murder you should get punished, but there should be no different punishment for murdering, say, a swede, or a brazilian, than what you get for murdering an american.

Oh, and I oppose the death-penalty, but don't tell anybody just yet! It's a surprise
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:04
That they killed an American. I don't give a shit where they came from or who they were or what their particular delusion was. As I said, as far as I'm concerned, you kill an American, you're dead. Simple.
So in other words I could rephrase what you said earlier as this:
"True, but I'm willing to make an exception when it's Americans who die."
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:14
In every case? Every american? Are you implying that an american life is somehow worth more than others?

Persoally, I don't care what nationality a victim has. If you murder you should get punished, but there should be no different punishment for murdering, say, a swede, or a brazilian, than what you get for murdering an american.
I agree, but as I have been at great pains to point out, I am an American and can only speak to the issue of Americans being killed. No, I do not think or feel that an American life is inherenly worth one iota more than any other, but they are my people and I have spent most of my life serving them as a soldier. Why would I feel otherwise?
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:15
So in other words I could rephrase what you said earlier as this: "True, but I'm willing to make an exception when it's Americans who die."
I'm not sure what you mean. Please say more. :)
Ancient British Glory
21-12-2005, 15:17
Strangely other countries don't put Americans on their own special pedistal when it comes to their justice system.

Well said.
Gravlen
21-12-2005, 15:18
I agree, but as I have been at great pains to point out, I am an American and can only speak to the issue of Americans being killed. No, I do not think or feel that an American life is inherenly worth one iota more than any other, but they are my people and I have spent most of my life serving them as a soldier. Why would I feel otherwise?

Thanks for the clarification. Then I think I understand what you are saying. ;)
Cabra West
21-12-2005, 15:19
As far as I'm concerned, you kill an American you're dead. You just don't know it yet; you're still walking around ... dead. :mad:

I couldn't help smiling at that... you just LOVE talking big, don't you?
Dorstfeld
21-12-2005, 15:20
Everyone who kills an American is dead?

Cool. The CIA has just been extinguished. The military, too, friendly fire and stuff. Same with the justice system. Schwarzenegger.

All dead.

Earth to Eutrusca...
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:20
Strangely other countries don't put Americans on their own special pedistal when it comes to their justice system.
Reeeely??? Wow! What a shocking revelation! :rolleyes:
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:22
I couldn't help smiling at that... you just LOVE talking big, don't you?
Shhhhhhhh! You're blowing my cover!
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9830/smileytroutsmack9zq.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:23
Everyone who kills an American is dead?

Cool. The CIA has just been extinguished. The military, too, friendly fire and stuff. Same with the justice system. Schwarzenegger.

All dead.

Earth to Eutrusca...
Very funny. Ha! Ha! Try actually, you know ... like reading the thread! :p
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:24
The US military protects it's own, so long as it can do so and avoid serious consequences.
Something that I have been very glad of, at times in my life.
Cabra West
21-12-2005, 15:26
Shhhhhhhh! You're blowing my cover!
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9830/smileytroutsmack9zq.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Couldn't help it, really. You reminded me to much of my little brother when he was about 13... the same emotional, dramatic pathos. ;)

Just don't expect me to get into any serious discussion when you just want to pose as the "big strong American". If you want to be treated like an adult, talk and behave like one :D
Heavenly Sex
21-12-2005, 15:27
Other than you assume, there's nothing that makes you Yankees superior to any other nation :p
I'm just happy we're not such trigger-happy violence maniacs as you :rolleyes:
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:27
I'm not sure what you mean. Please say more. :)
:p Ok...
True, but I'm willing to make an exception in cases like this.
+
Which particular part of the case? That it was an American killed? That the body was simply dumped on the Tarmac (what else were they going to do? Have a rotting corpse on the plane with them? Apologies for the lack of respect, but I feel it's an important point)? That they were terrorists? Or that they were Arab terrorists?
+
That they killed an American. I don't give a shit where they came from or who they were or what their particular delusion was. As I said, as far as I'm concerned, you kill an American, you're dead. Simple.
=
True, but I'm willing to make an exception when it's Americans who die.

Better?:p
UpwardThrust
21-12-2005, 15:28
You did not answer the question. Should other countries and peoples have the same standards and would that be acceptable to you? Or when the father who lost is wife, daughter and unborn grandchild in a bombing comes to NY and kills the peole who helped pay for their murders that would be ok? It would be ok to extradite all those people to the uk to face charges of supporting international terrorism? And under your system face the death penalty?
Probably not ... some still live under the motto "might makes right"

I dont happen to agree with it
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:28
Something that I have been very glad of, at times in my life.
But it does so to the detriment of justice in civilised society! That's not a good thing - you surely can't defend it for that?!
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:29
Couldn't help it, really. You reminded me to much of my little brother when he was about 13... the same emotional, dramatic pathos. ;)

Just don't expect me to get into any serious discussion when you just want to pose as the "big strong American". If you want to be treated like an adult, talk and behave like one :D
Hon, I love ya, but whether or not you decide to "get into any serious discussion" with me is a matter of total indifference. :p
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:30
Probably not ... some still live under the motto "might makes right"

I dont happen to agree with it
I don't agree with it either. :p
Cabra West
21-12-2005, 15:32
Hon, I love ya, but whether or not you decide to "get into any serious discussion" with me is a matter of total indifference. :p

One question for when you have cooled down a bit:

What exactly do you think would be gained if the offender was killed?
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:32
:p Ok...Better?:p
Not really, but meh!

I still don't understand what you're driving at. I was under the impression that I had been very clear about all this.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:34
One question for when you have cooled down a bit:

What exactly do you think would be gained if the offender was killed?
1. He would never have been able to repeat his act of murder.

2. His death would serve as a warning to others.

3. His death would be retributive.


BTW ... what makes you think I'm not "cooled down" already? :D
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:36
Not really, but meh!

I still don't understand what you're driving at. I was under the impression that I had been very clear about all this.
Well, from what I understand you're saying is that the only reason the terrorist should die is because the guy he killed happened to be American. Had it been any other nationality, you'd not be bothered, he could live, and do whatever the hell he likes (so long as he doesn't kill Americans). In fact, you probably wouldn't have started the thread. I didn't expect you to have such ridiculous double standards.
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:38
1. He would never have been able to repeat his act of murder.

2. His death would serve as a warning to others.

3. His death would be retributive.


BTW ... what makes you think I'm not "cooled down" already? :D
1. So far he hasn't, and there is no reason to believe he necessarily will again. It's like shares - past performance does not indicate future performance.
2. You mean as a warning to, say, suicide bombers? :rolleyes:
3. And? That's not the standard I expect the world's only superpower to live by.

EDIT: Hang on. The world's only superpower is America. I'd like to change point 3 to read: 'That's not the standard the world's only superpower should live by.
Cabra West
21-12-2005, 15:38
1. He would never have been able to repeat his act of murder.

2. His death would serve as a warning to others.

3. His death would be retributive.


BTW ... what makes you think I'm not "cooled down" already? :D

1. I trust German authorities and psychological assesment sufficiently to assume that he'll not pose a further threat (any more than you would, for instance :D )

2. No, it wouldn't. That's really basic human psychology and I would have expected better of you. His death would not be a deterrent, it would be regarded as martyrdom by the exact same people you would wish to deterr.

3. So, you're basically saying the this gut should be killed so that YOU feel better? If you were Catholic, I'd send you straight to confession for the mere thought!
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:39
But it does so to the detriment of justice in civilised society! That's not a good thing - you surely can't defend it for that?!
I defend it because I am painfully aware that the US military must work within numerous strictures at an exceedingly difficult job, and that at times they make mistakes that civilians cannot even begin to comprehend, and that they are my brothers and sisters. Do I think that if they cause someone's death deliberately, or by incompetence they should be tried? Of course. Do I think that they should be held to civilian standards of behavior? Not always.
Dorstfeld
21-12-2005, 15:41
Other than you assume, there's nothing that makes you Yankees superior to any other nation :p
I'm just happy we're not such trigger-happy violence maniacs as you :rolleyes:

oh, be fair...it's some of them, not all. Just too many of that kind, for my taste.

EDIT...taken that bit out. Cooling down sounds good.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:43
Well, from what I understand you're saying is that the only reason the terrorist should die is because the guy he killed happened to be American. Had it been any other nationality, you'd not be bothered, he could live, and do whatever the hell he likes (so long as he doesn't kill Americans). In fact, you probably wouldn't have started the thread. I didn't expect you to have such ridiculous double standards.
One ... more ... time: I can only speak to when Americans, such as the sailor in the OP, are murdered. I can't presume to speak for the citizens of other nations. That's for their own people and their own government to do.

I don't place any higher value on American lives than I do on the citizens of any other nation, I just happen to live here.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:44
oh, be fair...it's some of them, not all. Just too many of that kind, for my taste.

Btw, gotta love those inconsequential little nonentities playing the tough guy on the web, hiding behind their nation.
Nice flame. Can you view signatures? :)
Dorstfeld
21-12-2005, 15:47
Nice flame. Can you view signatures? :)

I already erased it.
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:50
I already erased it.
You didn't answer my question.
I V Stalin
21-12-2005, 15:52
I defend it because I am painfully aware that the US military must work within numerous strictures at an exceedingly difficult job, and that at times they make mistakes that civilians cannot even begin to comprehend, and that they are my brothers and sisters.
Fair enough, obviously I bow to your experience on this matter. I have no intention, at any time, of joining my country's military. I only have respect for you that you did.
Do I think that if they cause someone's death deliberately, or by incompetence they should be tried? Of course. Do I think that they should be held to civilian standards of behavior? Not always.
Any non-accidental death should be tried. I'm sorry, but I think we're going to have to disagree on this. In other cases, where deaths don't occur, then it may be possible not to expect 'civilian standards of behaviour', but if a death does occur, for whatever reason, unless it is entirely accidental, or the fault of the dead person, the person or persons responsible should be tried
Eutrusca
21-12-2005, 15:55
Fair enough, obviously I bow to your experience on this matter. I have no intention, at any time, of joining my country's military. I only have respect for you that you did.

Any non-accidental death should be tried. I'm sorry, but I think we're going to have to disagree on this. In other cases, where deaths don't occur, then it may be possible not to expect 'civilian standards of behaviour', but if a death does occur, for whatever reason, unless it is entirely accidental, or the fault of the dead person, the person or persons responsible should be tried
Uh ... I thought that's what I said. :confused:

Thank you for the intentioned respect. Muchly appreciated. :)
Ravenshrike
21-12-2005, 19:37
Of course, the real problem with this is the reason he was released, not the fact that he was released. 10:1 says that he was released in return for the german hostage, given the similarities in times.
Kievan-Prussia
21-12-2005, 19:40
Hey, if you Americans wanted Germany to be tough, you shouldn't have turned us into cowards after WWII. Yeah, you turn us into pussywillows, then expect us to be on the frontline of the Cold War for you.
The Atlantian islands
21-12-2005, 19:51
Hey, if you Americans wanted Germany to be tough, you shouldn't have turned us into cowards after WWII. Yeah, you turn us into pussywillows, then expect us to be on the frontline of the Cold War for you.

Although my history may be a bit rusty, there MIGHT have been a teenie tiny little reason we made you guys Pussuas after WWII. Now what was that little reason again....?:rolleyes:

Lol, on the other hand, I agree with you on the fact that we did turn Germany into a bunch of overly sensitive wimpy kiddy baby whiners. I mean come on, we all forgive Germany for its past and we would defenatly like to see it man up and put on the daddy pants for the first time in half a century.
Cabra West
21-12-2005, 22:08
Although my history may be a bit rusty, there MIGHT have been a teenie tiny little reason we made you guys Pussuas after WWII. Now what was that little reason again....?:rolleyes:

Lol, on the other hand, I agree with you on the fact that we did turn Germany into a bunch of overly sensitive wimpy kiddy baby whiners. I mean come on, we all forgive Germany for its past and we would defenatly like to see it man up and put on the daddy pants for the first time in half a century.

What on earth for? One of the few things I do like about Germany is the general rational approach to internal and foreign affairs...
Non Aligned States
22-12-2005, 02:57
Something that I have been very glad of, at times in my life.

Which means that unless caught in highly exposed media circumstances, you could do whatever you want and not be punished for it.

Tell me Eut. If on March 16, 1968, you had been there to watch the actions of Captain Ernest Medina and his company, would you have simply done nothing? Or would you have cheered them on?
Neu Leonstein
22-12-2005, 03:03
Of course, the real problem with this is the reason he was released, not the fact that he was released. 10:1 says that he was released in return for the german hostage, given the similarities in times.
That guy was a Shi'ite from a Hezbollah-related group.

The people who captured Osthoff were Sunnis from Iraq of some splintergroup after money.

There's no reason to assume the two had anything in common - but I'd bet that the Federal Government paid a ransom to the Sunnis.