NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: I'm sorry, but the Constitutional guarantees of freedom of association and freedom of religion trump any university's concerns about being politically correct.


California State University 2, Christianity 0 (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200512/NAT20051220a.html)


By Nathan Burchfiel
(CNSNews.com) - For the second time in two weeks, Christianity is on the losing end of a decision made by officials from the California State University system. Some students from Cal State at San Bernardino have been told that forming a Christian group is "not permissible" at the university because it restricts membership based on religious beliefs and sexual orientation.

Last week, an administrator from Cal State at Sacramento banned decorations pertaining to Christmas and the 4th of July, among other holidays, from her office because, she said, they represented "religious discrimination" and "ethnic insensitivity."

In the San Bernardino case, the Christian Student Association (CSA) proposed a constitution in order to be recognized by Cal State officials. In it, the CSA agreed to accept the school's demands about not discriminating on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender and physical disability, but rejected non-discrimination requirements regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation.

The student group insisted that members "must be Christians who have professed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." It added that membership could be revoked "for misconduct or violation of the statement of faith," including "historical Christian heresy [and] engaging in sexual activity outside the bounds of marriage."

All students were invited to attend group meetings and events without being members, according to the constitution, but only members could vote on group policy.

But in an Oct. 3 memo to the CSA's Ryan Sorba, Cal State San Bernadino student affairs director Christine Hansen wrote that the student group "could not discriminate against potential members because of their status as a non-Christian or as a homosexual."

Hansen told Cybercast News Service that the university does recognize several religious clubs, including the Jewish group Hillel and "a couple other sort of non-denominational Christian groups besides the one that Mr. Sorba is trying to start." But she said Sorba's proposal violated university and state policies.

Hansen's memo to Sorba on Nov. 2 explained the violation of those policies and how her enforcement of the rules were "not a matter of my opinion ...

"[I]t's a matter of my responsibilities as the director to uphold Title V," Hansen wrote to Sorba, referring to the California law that requires the non-discrimination clause in student group constitutions.

Greg Lukianoff, the director of legal and public advocacy for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), said the CSA had "the right to ensure that their members share their central beliefs." FIRE, a legal group that defends free speech on college campuses, is urging Cal State to recognize the group.

"The [United States] Constitution ensures that Muslim groups are free to be Muslim, Buddhist groups are free to be Buddhist, and Christian groups are free to be Christian," Lukianoff said, "even if the principles they express run counter to the official viewpoints of unconstitutional policies of state universities."

Last week, Patricia Sonntag, director of the Office of Services to Students with Disabilities for Cal State at Sacramento, sent an email to members of her staff pertaining to Christian-dominated holiday decorations from the office.

The memo named Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween, Valentine's Day, the 4th of July, St. Patrick's Day and Easter as the most offensive holidays, but Sonntag said those celebrations are "off the top of the list," implying that there would be others.

This isn't even funny anymore. It isn't even digestable anymore.

BY GOD IN HEAVEN!!!!

Even my University has a christian group. What does Cal State have against them? Gah!!!!!

BY GOD IN HEAVEN!!!!

Even my University has a christian group. What does Cal State have against them? Gah!!!!!
It's California... nuf said.

It's California... nuf said.

True true and the funny thing was, I was born in that state. Right outside Sacramento at that.

could not discriminate against potential members because of their status as a non-Christian or as a homosexual.
I'm going to bet the last bit is more of the stickler and the other is much ado...

I'm going to bet the last bit is more of the stickler and the other is much ado...
You could be correct, although I didn't get that impression from the article.

It's California... nuf said.
Ahh! The Land of Fruits and Nuts. :D

You could be correct, although I didn't get that impression from the article.
Well, you're getting it from an article and GOPUSA (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/december/1220_calif_christians.shtml) (where that headline pops up in a google search), with the phrase Bringing the conservative message to America. Not really a centrist approach, by why truck over well tread territory...

Going with a mainstream source (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13448787.htm), there is even more of a case-
State law prevents student groups at public universities from excluding people based on religion or sexual orientation.

"We are not permitted to charter them under Title V,"

b-but that's horrible...it's-
"This is about whether or not the First Amendment is allowed to exist at Cal State San Bernardino and whether or not Christians are allowed to exist," Sorba, 23, who also is president of the College Republicans, said Monday.
Hyperbole run amock, especially when you consider-
Chartered student groups are eligible for money from student fees and can invite speakers to campus, post fliers and use university rooms for meetings.
Suddenly they have a point.

The group mentioned in the OP article as being allowed, Hillel, is a jewish club, but there is an important difference, from thier website (http://www.knox.edu/hillelclub.xml), top of the page-
Hillel Club is an organization for students interested in Jewish tradition, history, and current issues. While the club provides an opportunity for Jewish students to get together, it is also open to all people interested in learning about Judaism.
And it seems that as long as the other christian groups that are allowed-
"a couple other sort of non-denominational Christian groups besides the one that Mr. Sorba is trying to start."
So Sorba is playing for the ref, because he knows full well that he can have christian groups on campus and he is perfectly able to be a christian on campus.

This is, it seems, a non-story.

Ahh! The Land of Fruits and Nuts. :D
Scary different people make you uncomfortable, still? Man, shake off those insecurities already...

COMMENTARY: I'm sorry, but the Constitutional guarantees of freedom of association and freedom of religion trump any university's concerns about being politically correct.


California State University 2, Christianity 0 (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200512/NAT20051220a.html)


By Nathan Burchfiel
(CNSNews.com) - For the second time in two weeks, Christianity is on the losing end of a decision made by officials from the California State University system. Some students from Cal State at San Bernardino have been told that forming a Christian group is "not permissible" at the university because it restricts membership based on religious beliefs and sexual orientation.

Last week, an administrator from Cal State at Sacramento banned decorations pertaining to Christmas and the 4th of July, among other holidays, from her office because, she said, they represented "religious discrimination" and "ethnic insensitivity."

In the San Bernardino case, the Christian Student Association (CSA) proposed a constitution in order to be recognized by Cal State officials. In it, the CSA agreed to accept the school's demands about not discriminating on the basis of race, color, national origin, gender and physical disability, but rejected non-discrimination requirements regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation.

The student group insisted that members "must be Christians who have professed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." It added that membership could be revoked "for misconduct or violation of the statement of faith," including "historical Christian heresy [and] engaging in sexual activity outside the bounds of marriage."

All students were invited to attend group meetings and events without being members, according to the constitution, but only members could vote on group policy.

But in an Oct. 3 memo to the CSA's Ryan Sorba, Cal State San Bernadino student affairs director Christine Hansen wrote that the student group "could not discriminate against potential members because of their status as a non-Christian or as a homosexual."

Hansen told Cybercast News Service that the university does recognize several religious clubs, including the Jewish group Hillel and "a couple other sort of non-denominational Christian groups besides the one that Mr. Sorba is trying to start." But she said Sorba's proposal violated university and state policies.

Hansen's memo to Sorba on Nov. 2 explained the violation of those policies and how her enforcement of the rules were "not a matter of my opinion ...

"[I]t's a matter of my responsibilities as the director to uphold Title V," Hansen wrote to Sorba, referring to the California law that requires the non-discrimination clause in student group constitutions.

Greg Lukianoff, the director of legal and public advocacy for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), said the CSA had "the right to ensure that their members share their central beliefs." FIRE, a legal group that defends free speech on college campuses, is urging Cal State to recognize the group.

"The [United States] Constitution ensures that Muslim groups are free to be Muslim, Buddhist groups are free to be Buddhist, and Christian groups are free to be Christian," Lukianoff said, "even if the principles they express run counter to the official viewpoints of unconstitutional policies of state universities."

Last week, Patricia Sonntag, director of the Office of Services to Students with Disabilities for Cal State at Sacramento, sent an email to members of her staff pertaining to Christian-dominated holiday decorations from the office.

The memo named Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween, Valentine's Day, the 4th of July, St. Patrick's Day and Easter as the most offensive holidays, but Sonntag said those celebrations are "off the top of the list," implying that there would be others.

This is another of those not-an-issue stories....

These 'Christians' are being disallowed from creating an official, on-campus group, that refuses entry based on sex, gender, religion, whatever.

They are perfectly welcome to start any group they like OFF campus, and I've seen no suggestion anywhere here, that they would be condemned for being members of such a society.

But, ON campus, with access to campus resources, and using campus facilities... it is only reasonable that the school be allowed to prevent discrimination.

Does the same school allow Neo-Nazi groups to operate on campus?

Eutrusca, may I ask you a personal question? When in your life have you actually experienced overt hostility relating to Political Correctness? I say this because I've been called '******' and been spat on and stuff so I have real reasons for getting upset over something like racism. But while I find PC annoying I don't really have bitter memories related to it, so it's hard for me to get really worked up over the whole thing. I don't like it on a theoretical level, but that's not the same thing. You seem to have a very significant hatred of PC though, which would only make sense to me if you had concretely bad memories related to it.

This is, it seems, a non-story.
Seconded.
I don't think it's a matter of stopping them because they're Christian. It's a matter of stopping them because they won't let others in and therefore actively discriminate.
And for that they're supposed to get money from the student body?

There's Christian groups at my campus, but they actively try to teach others about their message, they hold info sessions and so on, and they will actively engage people who only go there to debate them.
And they are involved with the "Gay Rights"-Groups on Campus.

Religious groups shouldn't get funding from student fees period. I don't care who they let in or not.

If you want a religious club on campus, fine, but not a penny of the schools money should be spent on it. (It would be different for private schools of course).

This is, it seems, a non-story.

Actually, I think the fact that they are trying to make it a story IS the story. Another attempt to twist facts to make it look like the poor moral majority is being persecuted.

Good call by the university. I don't see this as any different from cutting funding off to the Boy Scouts.

Bottom line: federal law states you can't discriminate against people based on their religion.

That Democratic club is racist to us facists!

Those anime lovers are prejudiced to us non anime lovers!

Those queers don't promote my heterosexual values.


Everything is politically incorrect....i think they want an excuse to ban religion. -.-

Seems to make sense to me. For a public school to fund a Christian club would give people the expectation that it would do so for any religious organization. Public funding should not be put in to advancing religious clubs. The school isnt condemning their existence, it isnt trying to wipe it off the map. It is merely stating it will not publicly and financially support a religious group, particularly one which plans to discriminate based on certain affiliations. Now, I use the term 'discriminate' loosely, because, honestly, I wouldn't allow some occultist trying to sow chaos memership, either. I just understand why Cal State isnt funding the program.

But here's what I don't get. The school can't sponsor this Christian group because it excludes people based on religion or sexual orientation. Though why would any non-Christian want to join a Christian group? I mean, I'm not Jewish so why would I join a group based on Judaism?

All groups exclude people, that's the point of a group. To be around like-minded people. So how can you say that it's wrong for them to exclude people who don't even want to be in their group in the first place?

Well, you're getting it from an article and GOPUSA (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/december/1220_calif_christians.shtml) (where that headline pops up in a google search), with the phrase Bringing the conservative message to America. Not really a centrist approach, by why truck over well tread territory...

Going with a mainstream source (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13448787.htm), there is even more of a case-


b-but that's horrible...it's-

Hyperbole run amock, especially when you consider-

Suddenly they have a point.

The group mentioned in the OP article as being allowed, Hillel, is a jewish club, but there is an important difference, from thier website (http://www.knox.edu/hillelclub.xml), top of the page-

And it seems that as long as the other christian groups that are allowed-

So Sorba is playing for the ref, because he knows full well that he can have christian groups on campus and he is perfectly able to be a christian on campus.

This is, it seems, a non-story.


Well said!

But here's what I don't get. The school can't sponsor this Christian group because it excludes people based on religion or sexual orientation. Though why would any non-Christian want to join a Christian group? I mean, I'm not Jewish so why would I join a group based on Judaism?

All groups exclude people, that's the point of a group. To be around like-minded people. So how can you say that it's wrong for them to exclude people who don't even want to be in their group in the first place?

Well said.

But here's what I don't get. The school can't sponsor this Christian group because it excludes people based on religion or sexual orientation. Though why would any non-Christian want to join a Christian group? I mean, I'm not Jewish so why would I join a group based on Judaism?

All groups exclude people, that's the point of a group. To be around like-minded people. So how can you say that it's wrong for them to exclude people who don't even want to be in their group in the first place?

If the group's goal was to examine the bible historically, for instance, then non-christians might want to join. As already mentioned in this thread, a Jewish group on that very campus is allowed, because its goal is to examine the beliefs/history of Judaism, AND IS NOT LIMITED TO JEWS. Some people, such as historians and students, sometimes like to learn about new and different things. The Christians group that is not allowed states that it is FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY, and was not for eductional purposes but for prayer and "spreading the word"; it excluded other people and its content was explicitly religious, therefore, it was not allowed.

Seems a fair reason to me. It excludes people from joining it- therefore it goes against the college charter- therefore it's not allowed. Big whoop.

But here's what I don't get. The school can't sponsor this Christian group because it excludes people based on religion or sexual orientation. Though why would any non-Christian want to join a Christian group? I mean, I'm not Jewish so why would I join a group based on Judaism?

All groups exclude people, that's the point of a group. To be around like-minded people. So how can you say that it's wrong for them to exclude people who don't even want to be in their group in the first place?
There is a difference in having a group of intrest and a group that activly discriminates against outsiders

I may be intrested in joining some of these groups on campus, even though I am an agnostic atheist. I should have the ability to do such

That Democratic club is racist to us facists!

Those anime lovers are prejudiced to us non anime lovers!

Those queers don't promote my heterosexual values.


Everything is politically incorrect....i think they want an excuse to ban religion. -.-
Except that-
the university does recognize several religious clubs, including the Jewish group Hillel and "a couple other sort of non-denominational Christian groups besides the one that Mr. Sorba is trying to start."
And that's from the GOP web article. Doesn't support your premise.

Political correctness can kiss my ass! :mad:

But here's what I don't get. The school can't sponsor this Christian group because it excludes people based on religion or sexual orientation. Though why would any non-Christian want to join a Christian group? I mean, I'm not Jewish so why would I join a group based on Judaism?

All groups exclude people, that's the point of a group. To be around like-minded people. So how can you say that it's wrong for them to exclude people who don't even want to be in their group in the first place?
Exclusion by way of lack of interest is not the same as not allowing gays and non-christians.

And regarding your question regarding Jewish clubs, I'll let a Jewish club explain (again):
Hillel Club is an organization for students interested in Jewish tradition, history, and current issues. While the club provides an opportunity for Jewish students to get together, it is also open to all people interested in learning about Judaism.
source (http://www.knox.edu/hillelclub.xml)

Political correctness can kiss my ass! :mad:
If you enjoy kisses from red herrings...

Actually, I think the fact that they are trying to make it a story IS the story. Another attempt to twist facts to make it look like the poor moral majority is being persecuted.
Certainly. They've become ninjas at this tactic. Lot of fish hooks being swallowed...

While I do hate Political Correctness, I do have to support the School for this.

Not because it would be seen as supporting a religious group but because the group did shoot themselves in the foot.

By limiting themselves "ONLY TO CHRISTIANS" they remove the one thing that Christ told us to do. "To go forth and preach to all nations."

by opening the group to outsiders, they could, through fellowship, witness the Word of God to those people and get some true converts.

but by being closed and so restrictive, it makes me wonder what their true goals were.

Sorry Eut, but can't support you here...

Unless it's just a rant against Political Correctness.

My highschool has a Christian group in it, anyone is allowed. Just only bible-bashers go there...

Actually, I think the fact that they are trying to make it a story IS the story. Another attempt to twist facts to make it look like the poor moral majority is being persecuted.
After hearing the facts, that much is obvious. Why is the religious-right constantly shitstirring, when they could be praying for world peace or holding bake sales for the homeless? All of this attention whoring really indicates that they lack the moral fiber they claim to monopolize.

I agree with the decession because of the exclusionary aspects of their club.

What's the difference between a club that excludes non-christians and another that excludes niggers or women?

If Christianity is sooooo great, why block people from taking part?

I have been to 2 community colleges and 2 universities and we had religious clubs of all varities. They did not exclude and infact encouraged "outsiders" to attend. The Muslim clubs are especially interested in this as a way to eliminate ignorance based prejudice.

My highschool has a Christian group in it, anyone is allowed. Just only bible-bashers go there...
My Highschool had one when I was there. Made some good friends there. both Christian and otherwise.

My Highschool had one when I was there. Made some good friends there. both Christian and otherwise.
Hehehe, several of my friends I made this year are Christian... I didn't find out until I said something rather unwelcome...

Hehehe, several of my friends I made this year are Christian... I didn't find out until I said something rather unwelcome...
Some of my Non-Christians friends marvelled that they never heard me swear until I was a Senior in High School.

One day, after Finals, I just exploded with a 'FUCK THIS'... the silence that followed was profound. when I asked what's the matter, the reply was.
"I can't recall ever hearing you swear before."
and everyone else agreed.

I'm going to bet the last bit is more of the stickler and the other is much ado...

LOL, I think the obvious thing is this; create a Christian group for Christian homosexuals! a group is merely a small number of people with a common interest in a particular topic - as long as they don't go on rapaging orgies every week end; rape and pillage the university campus and so forth, hardly think it is the place of the university to have any say in whether the club/group should exist.

LOL, I think the obvious thing is this; create a Christian group for Christian homosexuals! a group is merely a small number of people with a common interest in a particular topic - as long as they don't go on rapaging orgies every week end; rape and pillage the university campus and so forth, hardly think it is the place of the university to have any say in whether the club/group should exist.
They don't per se. A christian group can exists and be as exclusionary as they want, but they can't have access to school funds and grounds for thier exclusion.

They don't per se. A christian group can exists and be as exclusionary as they want, but they can't have access to school funds and grounds for thier exclusion.
Exactly

I dont think some understand that pandering to a group intrest is fine, its when they activly exclude everyone else that it becomes a problem reciving school funds

Actually, I think the fact that they are trying to make it a story IS the story. Another attempt to twist facts to make it look like the poor moral majority is being persecuted.

Exactically!

And Eutrusca bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Exactically!

And Eutrusca bought it hook, line, and sinker.
He buys into it so frequently and it is so frenquently shown to be misrepresented that his complacency has to be contemplated.

He buys into it so frequently and it is so frenquently shown to be misrepresented that his complacency has to be contemplated.

You know, when I first saw your name I was worried that people might mistake us for each other, but now that I've seen you post for a while... I wouldn't mind that at all. You got a head on your shoulders and your shit is together.

They don't per se. A christian group can exists and be as exclusionary as they want, but they can't have access to school funds and grounds for thier exclusion.

*applauds*

In the UK a couple of years ago the NUS (National Union of Students) ruled that Christian Unions couldn't exclude people on grounds of faith (although they admitted that they weren't sure why any non-Christians would actually want to go:p ).

There's a CU at my college and they always put "All welcome" at the bottom of their posters/emails/etc. I have no intention of going but I certainly don't begrudge them whatever funds they get.