NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm

So, the US based Music Publishers' Association has decided to crack down upon "illegal" lyric transcriptions and music tablature. But they don't want to just close down websites...

Mr Keiser said he did not just want to shut websites and impose fines, saying if authorities can "throw in some jail time I think we'll be a little more effective".

So...if you post your interpretation of a song's lyrics on your personal webpage, you could be facing jail in the near future. If you post your interpretation of the songs' music notation, the same applies...

"Unauthorised use of lyrics and tablature deprives the songwriter of the ability to make a living, and is no different than stealing," he said.
And this is really what gets me. How so? If I am musically skilled enough, I can interpret the music by ear myself and learn the song anyway - is this crucial (and probably unavoidable) part of improving your musicianship now technically illegal? I can also interpret the lyrics myself and write them down....is this illegal too? How am I depriving the artist of income by doing this?

What if I decide to play, say...."Smells Like Teen Spirit" on my guitar? Am I also depriving the artist of income, using that same line of thought? What if I decide to *teach* someone that song? How is that different from writing and distributing tablature? Hell, music lessons are going to become hard to manage in the future....the MPA can go and bust the chops of kids taking their first steps on the guitar or other instrument, as well as their teachers.

What of bands that don't have enough of a name to have their own sheet music? Their tabalature and lyrics are banned from display anyway. (as the article points out)

For the record, I have purchased sheet music before. In some cases, it is as riddled with errors as internet tablature and definitely not worth the $20-40 for a book. Sometimes, however, it is. However, often, i'll sit back and think "damn, that's a cool riff. I want to learn how to play that". That isn't going to inspire me to go spend that kind of money on a book. Tablature is an important learning device for the beginning musician (especially guitarists), and should not be treated as illegal. The artist isn't losing anything from this.

Sigh...a big loss for amateur musicians the world over.

So...thoughts? Opinions? Agree? Disagree? Think I should go to jail? (I've written tablature before.)

I think it's funny that companies can "own" chord variations and lyrics.

I'll keep on tabbing. Fuck these douchebags, and fuck capitalism.

It's even worse when the fucking music companies make shit insets for cds anyway. If they actually put the lyrics in the booklets each time it would help a lot.

But hey, imagine being in Jail and having your cellmate say 'so I killed a guy, what are you in for?' and you say 'Well I transcribed the tabs to this song I like and the police raided my house..'

I think it's funny that companies can "own" chord variations and lyrics.

I'll keep on tabbing. Fuck these douchebags, and fuck capitalism.
Yeah FUCK Capitalism!

Only problem is what happens when Bands(or the dreaded 'Groups') make companies of themselves to protect their 'interests'?-for instance the Bee Gees own some chords from the start of one of their songs...........


What about this Glorious place?
http://www.amiright.com/
:(

Fuck copyright & IP law. One's yet to be made that actually benefits the intended individuals over arbitrary 3rd parties.

I say we take off and nuke the DMCA & EUCD from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.

Bee Gees

They're douchebags through and through. Total shit, as far as I'm concerned.

They're douchebags through and through. Total shit, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah Bloody Australians.....

Bad move. Yes, the lyrics and tablature are intellectual property. The owner of the copyright can take steps to protect it against any infringement if he chooses to. And suffer the consequences.

Bad move. Yes, the lyrics and tablature are intellectual property. The owner of the copyright can take steps to protect it against any infringement if he chooses to. And suffer the consequences.

Shouldn't be that way, though. It's music.

It's like copyrighting letters!!!

Bad move. Yes, the lyrics and tablature are intellectual property. The owner of the copyright can take steps to protect it against any infringement if he chooses to. And suffer the consequences.

However, it isn't like a novel, where you can copy a piece and claim it as your own work, without giving credit to the author. Music is different. By claiming ownership over a certain chord progression, you're setting a dangerous precedent- how can anyone write music if this is the case?

Furthermore, as I already pointed out, what if I learn to play a song by ear, using my own skill? Am I also breaching copyright? I am doing the exact same thing.

It's even worse when the fucking music companies make shit insets for cds anyway. If they actually put the lyrics in the booklets each time it would help a lot.

But hey, imagine being in Jail and having your cellmate say 'so I killed a guy, what are you in for?' and you say 'Well I transcribed the tabs to this song I like and the police raided my house..'
Weezer had or still has a major problem with that but they are on their personel website though....

Latest Album has lyrics but Blue,Green didn't-I don't have Maladroit or Pinkerton.

Weezer had or still has a major problem with that but they are on their personel website though....

Latest Album has lyrics but Blue,Green didn't-I don't have Maladroit or Pinkerton.

Pinkerton doesn't either.

Pinkerton doesn't either.
Actually i thought that would be obvious seeing as the order was.

Blue,Pinkerton,Green,Malidroit,(Blue 10 year Anniversary of)Make Believe

So if the Green didn't it would be strange to see that Pinkerton would.

I'll buy Pinkerton tomorrow(he he Christmas)

I've never seen my last name uttered so much in one place.

I've never seen my last name uttered so much in one place.
Hmmmmmm Pinkerton
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON

*Rubs Chest*

Hmmmmmm Pinkerton
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON
PINKERTON

*Rubs Chest*

LOL!

I'll buy Pinkerton tomorrow(he he Christmas)

As well you should. It's better than the Green album, but not quite as good as the Blue Album IMO.

LOL!
It would have been funnier if it was Green Album no?

Hmmmmmm Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album

*Rubs Chest*

It would have been funnier if it was Green Album no?

Hmmmmmm Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album
Green Album

*Rubs Chest*

*gunshot*

As well you should. It's better than the Green album, but not quite as good as the Blue Album IMO.
I agree Pinkerton(Obviously not Potaria..) is better than the Green Album(Obviously not Potaria..).

Bump, lest this thread die.

RIAA, MPA, etc. are thieves and extortionists. I say send them to jail!

RIAA, MPA, etc. are thieves and extortionists. I say send them to jail!Indeed. I prefer to actually pay for my music & movies, but I will not help support their shit.

The RIAA Radar (http://magnetbox.com/riaa/search.asp) is a handy site for determining which albums to buy & which to steer clear of. I hope a few of you will start using it :)

Hey, if we're depriving the musicians of income by using their tabs and lyrics 'illegally', can we not get a lawsuit against the record companies for effectively forcing bands into handing over any ownership of their work? If bands want to become successful (I mean really successful - Coldplay or U2 successful), they basically have to sell their souls to a big record company, and have almost no control over their music, whether they want to or not. I find it ridiculous that for a band to make money from their music they have to lose control of their music first.

The RIAA Radar (http://magnetbox.com/riaa/search.asp) is a handy site for determining which albums to buy & which to steer clear of. I hope a few of you will start using it :)

But that represents the record labels, not the artists themselves. I'm not going to avoid buying an album by a certain artist just because their record company is cruddy.

But that represents the record labels, not the artists themselves. I'm not going to avoid buying an album by a certain artist just because their record company is cruddy.
Download the music from the big record companies and buy from the indies. That's the way to do it.
Chances are with the big record labels, most of the money goes to the label, whereas with the indies more of the money goes to the band.

But that represents the record labels, not the artists themselves. I'm not going to avoid buying an album by a certain artist just because their record company is cruddy.That's why the RIAA Radar is a great tool. It's a simple way to check which albums/releases are good & which aren't. Remember, many big names release on several labels. If you stick to buying the ones that aren't RIAA affiliated, you'll be sending a loud & clear message.

And if you can't find a safe version of what you're after, either leave the shit alone, or come sail the digital seas on me pirate ship! Arr!

music in all forms is illegal (unless you pay music companies for the privelige)

didn't you know this? they own your soul FFS.

music in all forms is illegal (unless you pay music companies for the privelige)

didn't you know this? they own your soul FFS.Speaking of..

Several underground music sites have been taken down over the last 5 years. And I'm talking about sites promoting local artists by letting people download selected tracks for free, with the artists explicit consent.

Of course, both sites & artists should have known that doing something like that isn't legal. Anywhere. Because the various organisations administrating copyrights are legally entitled to a peice of the pie when music is distributed by 3rd parties. It doesn't matter that the artists themselves have given permission, and that no money are involved.

I know of 10 cases of this happening all over the planet, from the US to Asia to Europe. It's fucking disgusting.

This is ridiculous. The music industry is becoming increasingly spiteful of reality. This is shown because their demsnds are so unreasonable. It's fine if they want to preserve the copyright on the official tab books (which, incidentally, often suck on accuracy), but it makes no sense to punish people for writing down their own interpretation by ear of the music.

And suppose a guitar teacher teaches what he has figured out of a song by ear. This is now going to be illegal? It's getting to the point where big business wants to legally control what goes on inside people's minds.

If bands want to become successful (I mean really successful - Coldplay or U2 successful), they basically have to sell their souls to a big record company, and have almost no control over their music, whether they want to or not. I find it ridiculous that for a band to make money from their music they have to lose control of their music first.
Actually in U2's case they own all their own songs.

But that represents the record labels, not the artists themselves. I'm not going to avoid buying an album by a certain artist just because their record company is cruddy.
Most of the money from the album goes to the record company. However, more of the money you pay to see them live goes to the band.

That's why the RIAA Radar is a great tool. It's a simple way to check which albums/releases are good & which aren't. Remember, many big names release on several labels. If you stick to buying the ones that aren't RIAA affiliated, you'll be sending a loud & clear message.

And if you can't find a safe version of what you're after, either leave the shit alone, or come sail the digital seas on me pirate ship! Arr!

Download the music from the big record companies and buy from the indies. That's the way to do it.
Chances are with the big record labels, most of the money goes to the label, whereas with the indies more of the money goes to the band.


I don't think so. It's an admirable stance, but most (~80%, from quick checking) of the music I listen to is RIAA affiliated - even relatively obscure bands like Kyuss and Monster Magnet. There's no way around that, and I don't fancy selling off all my CDs and replacing them with burnt copies.

(Aside from that, we're talking about a monolithic organisation that has nothing against slapping massive fines onto minors. Do you really think they care?)

Most of the money from the album goes to the record company. However, more of the money you pay to see them live goes to the band.

Unfortunately, most of the bands I like are no longer around.

Unfortunately, most of the bands I like are no longer around.Noone's telling you to get rid of your existing collection. That would be utterly pointless.

Just stop buying RIAA crap. If you can't get it from un-RIAA affiliated companies, take up piracy. I'll be more than happy to help you out.

Noone's telling you to get rid of your existing collection. That would be utterly pointless.

Just stop buying RIAA crap. If you can't get it from un-RIAA affiliated companies, take up piracy. I'll be more than happy to help you out.

Meh, well, i'll try.

(I get most of my albums from discount CD stores anyway. I pay $10 or more below retail price. So really, the RIAA is sucking my balls anyway.)

Meh, well, i'll try.

(I get most of my albums from discount CD stores anyway. I pay $10 or more below retail price. So really, the RIAA is sucking my balls anyway.)Almost two years ago, roughly 40% of the income of all RIAA affiliated labels come from discount sales. That number has been on a steady increase since 1999.

Don't support the cunts. They deserve prison, not your money.

However, more of the money you pay to see them live goes to the band.
Although the promoter takes a substantial cut, and in the case of, for example, Cl**r Ch*nn*l, bands frequently have to pay the promoter just to perform the show, on top of the cut CC will take from the gig anyway. Ok, so they don't actually have to, but would you want your band to be banned from playlists on almost 2000 radio stations in the US?

Almost two years ago, roughly 40% of the income of all RIAA affiliated labels come from discount sales. That number has been on a steady increase since 1999.

Don't support the cunts. They deserve prison, not your money.
Ehh. Do you have a list of figures like that?

And you're right, but...99.99% of people do not and will not give a shit. Any stance we take, no matter how many people get involved, isn't going to stop the hordes of younger people that buy Eminem or Beyonce CDs. Etc. I dare say I agree with your stance, i'm just not sure if there's likely to be any effect. It's like the musical equivalent of moral vegetarianism. (lol)

Oh well, at least Sub Pop isn't a member of the RIAA. That saves a good part of my collection. ;)

Although the promoter takes a substantial cut, and in the case of, for example, Cl**r Ch*nn*l, bands frequently have to pay the promoter just to perform the show, on top of the cut CC will take from the gig anyway. Ok, so they don't actually have to, but would you want your band to be banned from playlists on almost 2000 radio stations in the US?

Not only that, but the venue takes a cut as well. Often the venue and promoter are separate entities. Don't forget all the stage crew and other personel that also need to get paid.

Speaking of..

Several underground music sites have been taken down over the last 5 years. And I'm talking about sites promoting local artists by letting people download selected tracks for free, with the artists explicit consent.

Of course, both sites & artists should have known that doing something like that isn't legal. Anywhere. Because the various organisations administrating copyrights are legally entitled to a peice of the pie when music is distributed by 3rd parties. It doesn't matter that the artists themselves have given permission, and that no money are involved.

I know of 10 cases of this happening all over the planet, from the US to Asia to Europe. It's fucking disgusting.
well if the local artists are signed up to a record company, then they are indeed stripped of their soul and pwned, so no suprise there

if the artists don't yet have a deal then i would be suprised. anyone remember mp3.com? used to have thousands of unsigned bands promoting their warez (and i know at least 2 bands who got a deal through that site), but it got shut down (at least in that capacity). stupid.

greed - on behalf of the music corporations - is the problem. if it were down to the artists then this wouldn't really be a problem - make a few million to have your crack and hos and you're happy; but a music industry mogul can never have enough profit...
stupid commercialisation... grr

Woah. A lot of angry NSers here.

Did I hear this right? That writing a tab/notation or whatever and posting it on site is ILLEGAL in the USA?

Well, there's your reason for jail overcrowding.

Ehh. Do you have a list of figures like that?

And you're right, but...99.99% of people do not and will not give a shit. Any stance we take, no matter how many people get involved, isn't going to stop the hordes of younger people that buy Eminem or Beyonce CDs. Etc. I dare say I agree with your stance, i'm just not sure if there's likely to be any effect. It's like the musical equivalent of moral vegetarianism. (lol)

Oh well, at least Sub Pop isn't a member of the RIAA. That saves a good part of my collection. ;)I don't have the material handy right now, but I can dig it up for you for tomorrow if you want.

I'm gonna have to agree that it's the ethical equivalent of veganism. And it probably won't surprise you that I am a vegan, and used to be fairly involved in fighting the EUCD & other copyrights related issues. I'm a bit out of the loop currently though, as I suddenly didn't have time for real involvement. Right now I'm working on other projects.

Don't let odds dictate your behaviour. It always feels better to do what you know is right that what's popular.

I don't have the material handy right now, but I can dig it up for you for tomorrow if you want.

Please do. :)

Don't let odds dictate your behaviour. It always feels better to do what you know is right that what's popular.

Of course. If I were a blind realist, I wouldn't have the political views I do today.

Like I said, i'll try. I know I won't adhere to it completely, though. If I see a band I like, and want one of their albums, even if they're all RIAA owned, I would prefer to buy it rather than pirate it, even if only because it's easier to organise on my shelf.

I promise though, if it comes down to an artist having both independent and RIAA albums, I will give priority to the independent releases.

Actually, come to think of it, there's a perfectly sane alternative. Buy all of those RIAA albums second-hand... :D

Oh well, at least Sub Pop isn't a member of the RIAA. That saves a good part of my collection. ;)

Warner Music own about 50% of Sub Pop so don't kid yourself it's a little punk rock organisation anymore.

All labels treat music/artists as a commodity to be bought and sold for $$$ or £££. The indies are no better than the majors - for every band ripped off by their label i can guarentee half of them are on independent labels.

So stop all yr whining. The problem is consumers / artists / everyone involved are generally unwilling to look for an alternative way. Instead of clinging to this corporate dinosaur fuck off somewhere else and do your own thing.

Please do. :)



Of course. If I were a blind realist, I wouldn't have the political views I do today.

Like I said, i'll try. I know I won't adhere to it completely, though. If I see a band I like, and want one of their albums, even if they're all RIAA owned, I would prefer to buy it rather than pirate it, even if only because it's easier to organise on my shelf.

I promise though, if it comes down to an artist having both independent and RIAA albums, I will give priority to the independent releases.

Actually, come to think of it, there's a perfectly sane alternative. Buy all of those RIAA albums second-hand... :DAlright, it'll be my pleasure :)

Buying second-hand is always best, unless you're after stuff from very small indeps. I applaud your attitude towards this. Far too few give a damn. You just made my day :)

Warner Music own about 50% of Sub Pop so don't kid yourself it's a little punk rock organisation anymore.

Then the website is wrong; it lists them as "safe".

(I must commend you on your name too. They're a great band :))


Buying second-hand is always best, unless you're after stuff from very small indeps. I applaud your attitude towards this. Far too few give a damn. You just made my day :)

Well then, you're quite welcome. :)

I'm simply going to pop in here to say that one can know more bring "freedom" to music than you could "free" any other inanimate object that someone owns. You might as well start trying to "free" your desk lamp.

Meh, well, i'll try.

(I get most of my albums from discount CD stores anyway. I pay $10 or more below retail price. So really, the RIAA is sucking my balls anyway.)
Yeah I always buy second-hand nowadays. I'm supporting independent business more than anyone else.

I'm simply going to pop in here to say that one can know more bring "freedom" to music than you could "free" any other inanimate object that someone owns. You might as well start trying to "free" your desk lamp.

Perhaps it would have been better worded "Freedom for musicians", but my care factor is still registering as zero.

I'm simply going to pop in here to say that one can know more bring "freedom" to music than you could "free" any other inanimate object that someone owns. You might as well start trying to "free" your desk lamp.It's not about bringing freedom to music. It's about freedom of expression & freedom from corporate oppression. Something is fundamentally wrong when 13 year olds are sued by multi-billion dollar interest organisations.
Something is terribly fucking wrong when those same corporates decide what is law & who such laws protect.

It's not about bringing freedom to music. It's about freedom of expression & freedom from corporate oppression. Something is fundamentally wrong when 13 year olds are sued by multi-billion dollar interest organisations.
Over the issue at hand (reprinted song lyrics), yeah something is fundamentally stupid about that. Trying to clamp down on that sort of thing is like trying to get royalties out of everyone that sings your song in the shower.
In other situations, it is a matter of what that 13 year old did. Age isn't automatic innocence, and people need to wrap their heads around that fact.

Perhaps it would have been better worded "Freedom for musicians", but my care factor is still registering as zero.
I was mainly just making my line in the sand against trying to "free" an inanimate object. Partially because the idea of "freeing" something that isn't alive is disturbingly common, and partially because I had an exam on Music History awhile ago and had to write about that shit-sock who ranted about "the immancipation of dissonance." Yes, I know what it means, but it would be useful if you used words properly so it didn't take extra effort on my part just to figure out what you are saying.

I was mainly just making my line in the sand against trying to "free" an inanimate object. Partially because the idea of "freeing" something that isn't alive is disturbingly common, and partially because I had an exam on Music History awhile ago and had to write about that shit-sock who ranted about "the immancipation of dissonance." Yes, I know what it means, but it would be useful if you used words properly so it didn't take extra effort on my part just to figure out what you are saying.

I'm not here to be useful. I WILL SPAKE TEH ENGLISHCH HOW I FELT LIKE IT!!! :p

Can anyone name a period in history when art and commerce were not inextricably linked?

Cave paintings don't count.

I'm not here to be useful. I WILL SPAKE TEH ENGLISHCH HOW I FELT LIKE IT!!! :p
Damn you and your weirding ways!
*Shakes fist*

Cave paintings don't count.
Actually, I'm pretty sure there was some economic value in Cave Paintings. Either people were paid to make them (mural style, biotch) or they were used as a way of marking territory.

Fucking sell-out asshats. This is bullshit of the highest order, and I thought what the RIAA was doing was as low as the music "industry" could sink. Capitalist pig dogs.

The MPA would target "very big sites that people would think are legitimate and very, very popular", Mr Keiser said.
Apparently their lawyer, Mr. Keiser, has never used the internet and sits alone in his mansion cave every night not watchnig tv or using the computer. If he thinks they are "only going after big sites," he is a douche being kept in teh dark. Anyone who has ever tried to look up lyrics or tablature knows there are no "very big" sites with this shit on them. I would only support this if they are going after the sites online that make you pay for the tablature and are licensed to dispense it. That is fair and because they are making a profit off of some one else's stuff without proper rights. But more than likely, they will be going after tiny sites run from geocities because there will be no legal battles and it will look like they are getting shit done while not having to face groups with money to fights back at their disposal.

Damn you and your weirding ways!
*Shakes fist*

Hehe.

Of course, it didn't help originally that I was almost done with beer #6 upon starting this thread.

Instead of blaming the industry or business, who are doing what they're designed to do - make money. And not pretending any other way. Why not point the finger at the 'artist' signing up for all this shite with the lure of big bucks dangled under his/her nose? No-one forces a band or singer into this situation.

Fucking sell-out asshats. This is bullshit of the highest order, and I thought what the RIAA was doing was as low as the music "industry" could sink. Capitalist pig dogs.
Oh, God, no. The music industry can sink even further if it wants to. And I'm sure it will. They'll probably try clamping down on selling second-hand CDs at some point.

Oh, God, no. The music industry can sink even further if it wants to. And I'm sure it will. They'll probably try clamping down on selling second-hand CDs at some point.
Good point, I give it 8 months. When they start claiming that distribution of lyrics deprives them of money, they are full of shit. Any idiot with time on their hands can write out the lyrics for any particular song, even easier if it isn't barely telligble rap or strange versions of rock.

Oh, God, no. The music industry can sink even further if it wants to. And I'm sure it will. They'll probably try clamping down on selling second-hand CDs at some point.

Ehh. You're probably right. :(

Forgive my ignorance... but in what way do the companies own the artists' souls when it comes to dictating what songs they write? Do they tell them to write a particular song? Is that why popular stuff is so FUCKING SHITE?

EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm It's like the friggin' Musician's Guild in Ankh-Morpork!

Well, this might backfire. People who find the record companies stealing their lyrics will follow precedent too.

Forgive my ignorance... but in what way do the companies own the artists' souls when it comes to dictating what songs they write? Do they tell them to write a particular song? Is that why popular stuff is so FUCKING SHITE?

Well, I have a recollection that most modern pop singers have all of their songs written by one guy. Forget his name. Anyone else know?

They'll probably end up going after sites such as ultimateguitartabs.com, mxtabs and others that are really popular.

Eitherway, this is 100% patent bullshit, surely once someone hears it and makes their own interpretation it's only copyright infringement if it's 100% correct, otherwise as we say - it is interpretation.

Or if tabs are directly transcribed FROM tab books, but the best tabs aren't, because in most cases the people who write tab books are on crack anyway.

If this ends up going to court, which I can't beleive it would, any judge with half an ounce of sense would chuck this out.

What next? Publishers going after writers and websites that quote shakespeare?

Surely creating your own tabs and lyric sheets comes under acceptable use?

They'll probably end up going after sites such as ultimateguitartabs.com, mxtabs and others that are really popular.
As far as I know, one of those two sites is already down. MXTabs hasn't been working for me for a while.

Oh, and, bump.

(maybe cuz it was shut down, idk)

I say fuck those goddamed companies. There is only veeery few things worse than a fortune-500 company controlled gov't. Fucking enron, fucking tyco, these men should be sent to be flogged and have their livers fed to them...ANALY...

Owning guitar chords?>?? who the fuck do they think they are? holy shit one day this is gonna get way outta hand and we're gonna have another civil rights movement in this country, not against the gov't or racism, but against "legal" companies.

Honestly I think that capitalism and communism are both good forms of gov't. Its only when they are overused & abused do they suck balls.

---Sorry for the rant but reading that article seriously made todays bad mood even worse.

The whole things an open threat. Prisons are over-populated anyway, with the addition of these "Criminals" the prison system will break down. Furthermore this can't be enforced internationally so more websites will just be based in different countries eg www.tabs.co.uk

I think the world's going to change quite a bit when these old asshats start kicking the bucket in ten years or so. This is sort of like a last gasp of corporate shitheadery.

They're douchebags through and through. Total shit, as far as I'm concerned.
Abba does it too.
Madonna had to ask permission to take something from one of their songs for her new one......

Wah, what a bunch of whiny commies. Fuck capitalism, you say? Okay, quit your job and don't spend money. Be a real rebel, instead of just a whiner!

Wah, what a bunch of whiny commies. Fuck capitalism, you say? Okay, quit your job and don't spend money. Be a real rebel, instead of just a whiner!

And your purpose for being in this thread is what exactly? If you have nothing to add other than personal attacks,

Go Away.

And your purpose for being in this thread is what exactly? If you have nothing to add other than personal attacks,

Go Away.

Right, and just blurting out "FUCK capitalism" is contributive to the thread? Basically, if its offensive but agrees with your politics, its OK, and if it doesnt, you want it to Go Away.

My "purpose" for being in this thread is to comment on the topic in the same vein as anyone else. Or when you mentioned "freedom" in the title, did you not actually mean it?

Right, and just blurting out "FUCK capitalism" is contributive to the thread? Basically, if its offensive but agrees with your politics, its OK, and if it doesnt, you want it to Go Away.

My "purpose" for being in this thread is to comment on the topic in the same vein as anyone else. Or when you mentioned "freedom" in the title, did you not actually mean it?

Hey, if you've got a problem with something that I said, get pissed off at me, not him.

It's not what you said. It's the way you said it. You're trolling. Simple as that.

Wah, what a bunch of whiny commies. Fuck capitalism, you say? Okay, quit your job and don't spend money. Be a real rebel, instead of just a whiner!
But i hate Communism more.:(

Right, and just blurting out "FUCK capitalism" is contributive to the thread? Basically, if its offensive but agrees with your politics, its OK, and if it doesnt, you want it to Go Away.

My "purpose" for being in this thread is to comment on the topic in the same vein as anyone else. Or when you mentioned "freedom" in the title, did you not actually mean it?

If you have something constructive to say, by all means please say it. I will be more than happy to engage in rational debate with you. Indeed, that is the purpose for which I made this thread. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. However, your current attitude suggests that you do not wish to act civilised.

Blurting out "FUCK capitalism" isn't a personal attack. It may be inarticulate, but that isn't my problem. Your comments were, and have no purpose other than trolling. You attack people for being "whiny commies", and yet you apparently have pretensions of having some sort of moral high ground here.

Like I said, if you want to contribute something, please by all means do so. Otherwise, i've already asked you to leave.

Well, I'm not sure how it's a personal "attack" to say that you are whining and that you're commies. Indeed, since you pretty much ARE commies here, I don't see why you'd see that as an insult... and saying that you're whining isn't exactly slander either. It's just my opinion, of course, kinda like "fuck capitalism." We are all allowed to an opinion.

Now, it may not be *articulate*, but frankly when I see a post that just says "fuck capitalism" it doesn't inspire me to believe there's going to be a constructive, rational, civilized debate with that person. Correct me if I'm wrong; do tell me how to argue for or against the concept of 'fuck capitalism.'

If I were into whining myself, I would have reported that as just trolling - but I tend not to since I'd rather just counter people's opinions with one of my own.

If you really have a problem with that, you can use the ignore feature instead of trying to bully me out of a thread as you folks are doing.

Well, I'm not sure how it's a personal "attack" to say that you are whining and that you're commies. Indeed, since you pretty much ARE commies here, I don't see why you'd see that as an insult... and saying that you're whining isn't exactly slander either. It's just my opinion, of course, kinda like "fuck capitalism." We are all allowed to an opinion.

Now, it may not be *articulate*, but frankly when I see a post that just says "fuck capitalism" it doesn't inspire me to believe there's going to be a constructive, rational, civilized debate with that person. Correct me if I'm wrong; do tell me how to argue for or against the concept of 'fuck capitalism.'

If I were into whining myself, I would have reported that as just trolling - but I tend not to since I'd rather just counter people's opinions with one of my own.

If you really have a problem with that, you can use the ignore feature instead of trying to bully me out of a thread as you folks are doing.

*sigh*

I'm not trying to bully you out of the thread. I've already said that if you would care to argue the other side of this issue, i'm willing to accomodate you in a civilised manner.

I'm not expecting you to argue with Potaria's post. I'm expecting you to argue against MY post. I didn't say "Fuck Capitalism". Potaria has already made his stance on the issue clear; now I want you to present your opinion on the issue in question rather than jumping in here and labelling us all "whining commies" and telling us to quit our jobs and stop spending money. If you are unwilling to do so, fine, i'm sure there are plenty of other threads which would accomodate you better.

I bet that article makes people want to download illegally even more.

And, capitalism RULES!