Soviet Union shrapnel
Ok, we can all chat about how many things ended with the fall of the Soviet Union.
But how about the nasty things that left behind? Let us ponder, which of these is the worst:
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EDIT: For those who left their investigative selves on the loose:
I DO NOT THINK COMMUNISM WORKS.
You need an other category.
My other being: The total collapse of the Russian economy.
Harlesburg
19-12-2005, 09:00
I said the Mob but this idea that Communism is cool.:headbang:
You need an other category.
My other being: The total collapse of the Russian economy.
Agreed.
Gorbechev didn't really help matters. China learned their lesson from his faliure...
...and Yeltsin was too drunk to do anything helpful either. :p
Neu Leonstein
19-12-2005, 12:10
The worst thing on that list is Chechnya. You could argue that that's not really the fault of the Soviets, but I chose it nonetheless.
Niyazov is funny, and he said he'd do elections by 2010...:p
Cataduanes
19-12-2005, 12:52
The worst thing on that list is Chechnya. You could argue that that's not really the fault of the Soviets, but I chose it nonetheless.
Niyazov is funny, and he said he'd do elections by 2010...:p
It could also be argued that Soviet policy towards the Chechens during the second world war have lead to this bitterness mind you the Chechens seem to have been fighting the russians on and off since the mid 1800's.
I agree on Niyazov, what a funny man, how the hell he still commands the loyalty of his army is beyond me (i suspect the distrubution of Turkmenistan's gas profits may have something to do with it).....
It could also be argued that Soviet policy towards the Chechens during the second world war have lead to this bitterness mind you the Chechens seem to have been fighting the russians on and off since the mid 1800's.
That is a good connection, but I have an even more clear one in mind: the Chechens could only seriously ask for independance after they had seen the Union crumble. Them and others, who were suppressed with more success, could possibly agree to a Union that at least promised to become multi-national (and there was more and more of that promise becoming reality during Gorbachev).
The fact is that, no matter what you hear from the Balts (who were at the time forming a world of three) and some idiotic Moldovans, and possibly (through sheer coincidence) from Pan-Islamists in the Pamir, no nationalism other than Russian contributed to the Union's fall. Which meant that even a moderate leader like Yeltsin did seriously endanger the ethnic relations, tense as they were.
Oh, you might say "but then there's Nagorno-Karabagh". I urge you to look again: it's not that Karabagh did not, it's that Armenia herself dreaded the moment the Soviet state would collapse!
Before you think I'm in love with the Soviets, let me point out that it's more likely linked to Stalin's agile policy towards the various republics. I can summarize it as: "Let us trace your borders, let us plan your industry according to our needs, let us carry half of your population away and perhaps kill it, let us compensate with a colonist that is united only by paranoia towards what you might turn out to be, let us create institutions that you'll never need and will never be allowed to miss. Then let us pretend that this construction has the nominal right to seccede (which is awarded by Moscow!) and let us check out who still wants to".
Cataduanes
19-12-2005, 14:42
That is a good connection, but I have an even more clear one in mind: the Chechens could only seriously ask for independance after they had seen the Union crumble. Them and others, who were suppressed with more success, could possibly agree to a Union that at least promised to become multi-national (and there was more and more of that promise becoming reality during Gorbachev).
The fact is that, no matter what you hear from the Balts (who were at the time forming a world of three) and some idiotic Moldovans, and possibly (through sheer coincidence) from Pan-Islamists in the Pamir, no nationalism other than Russian contributed to the Union's fall. Which meant that even a moderate leader like Yeltsin did seriously endanger the ethnic relations, tense as they were.
Oh, you might say "but then there's Nagorno-Karabagh". I urge you to look again: it's not that Karabagh did not, it's that Armenia herself dreaded the moment the Soviet state would collapse!
Before you think I'm in love with the Soviets, let me point out that it's more likely linked to Stalin's agile policy towards the various republics. I can summarize it as: "Let us trace your borders, let us plan your industry according to our needs, let us carry half of your population away and perhaps kill it, let us compensate with a colonist that is united only by paranoia towards what you might turn out to be, let us create institutions that you'll never need and will never be allowed to miss. Then let us pretend that this construction has the nominal right to seccede (which is awarded by Moscow!) and let us check out who still wants to".
Yeah i agree, upon Yeltsin's rise half a dozen forgotten nations were re-established as autonomous republics (Tatarstan, Kalmykia, Adyghiea, etc) and this has in turn enable these small nations to revive the cutural and linguisitc traditions. I have many Armenian friends and indeed you are right the collapse of soviet power was nearly a complete disaster for Armenia as it was for so many regions within the old Soviet Union and present day Armenia is effectively under siege with its borders to Azerbaijan and Turkey closed.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
19-12-2005, 15:28
Chechnya, if the Soviets could just have kept a hold of that damned place we wouldn't have all these people rushing off to invade it.
I V Stalin
19-12-2005, 17:13
Chechnya. A lot of it was Stalin's fault - he certainly didn't help matters at least. Ahem... *whistles nonchalantly*
Ok, we can all chat about how many things ended with the fall of the Soviet Union.
But how about the nasty things that left behind? Let us ponder, which of these is the worst:
(by "these" I mean the options in the poll, which is due very soon)
worst thing it left behind :confused: :confused: :confused:
oh yeah, people who think communism works
Schrandtopia
19-12-2005, 17:17
more AKs, RPG and landmines than I care to shake a stick at
The State of It
19-12-2005, 17:23
The lack of a present day bulwark against Neo Con invasion/investment/imperialism whims.