NationStates Jolt Archive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely Boys
No, it makes me depressed because of how easily the individual is impressed by some over hyped zealot hell bent on taking a generation and turning them into clueless zealots with more bigotry than <insert name of favourite facist dictator>

I swear, we need to have public floggings for ignorant religious types - make them realise the stupidity of their naivity and blind beliefs.


Ah, that's what it was.

I went to a youth group once. After talking to some of the people for a little bit, I promptly ran for it. So much blind faith, and such foolishness, my brain just couldn't take it.

I'd prefer to teach kids to rely on themselves, and their own skills, than on some god, that may or may not exist.


This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.

So is this an endorcement of faith or anti-faith?

1. belief in christ trumps doing the right or moral thing does it? this a major flaw with the church's teachings imo

2. i utterly dispute that non-christians cannot commit themselves to anything.

3. whatever works for you... if beleiving in something like that helps you get through the day and your life, then believe it. if atheism is your bag, go with that. its not one size fits all.
(however religious views shouldn't be forced on people of other religions or no religion, which is why religion should be kept out of schools and government imho)

4. untrusting? i cannot trust in something i do not believe exists at all.


hmm i smell a troll...

personally im anti-faith because most faiths are just another way for one person to get power over someone else and also because religions force people to act and behave in certain ways ok the second part was dumb . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely Boys
No, it makes me depressed because of how easily the individual is impressed by some over hyped zealot hell bent on taking a generation and turning them into clueless zealots with more bigotry than <insert name of favourite facist dictator>

I swear, we need to have public floggings for ignorant religious types - make them realise the stupidity of their naivity and blind beliefs.


Ah, that's what it was.

I went to a youth group once. After talking to some of the people for a little bit, I promptly ran for it. So much blind faith, and such foolishness, my brain just couldn't take it.

I'd prefer to teach kids to rely on themselves, and their own skills, than on some god, that may or may not exist.

This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.
Some people need the security that belief provides, and this:

"This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In."

... is about as inaccurate as you can get. :p

This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.
My magical sky-pixie (Phil) is far superior to your magical sky-pixie.

Faith, I very much love God and beleive in him. Now heres a question.

Why do people who believe in God get labeled as trolls? I think that alot of people don;t know alot about the Christian faith, even though they think they do. There are alot of misconceptions and literal interpretations that are not true.

"This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In."

... is about as inaccurate as you can get. :p
oh i don't know... i've known people ("christians") use that little rule to fuck people sideways all week, really stab people in the back and do some real nasty shit, safe in the knowledge that they go to church on sunday, repent their sins and they start next week with a fresh slate.
they were not "good" christians. they were assholes whether christian or not, but they used this little loophole to do whatever the fuck they wanted with impunity and without moral reprisal. fuckers.

Some people need the security that belief provides, and this:

"This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In."

... is about as inaccurate as you can get. :p

One you accept Jesus Christ into your heart you are locked in, there is nothing that you can do to make him not love you or save you. You are guarenteed a spot in heaven.

Faith, I very much love God and beleive in him. Now heres a question.

Why do people who believe in God get labeled as trolls? I think that alot of people don;t know alot about the Christian faith, even though they think they do. There are alot of misconceptions and literal interpretations that are not true.
sorry but a wholly one-sided arguement (if you can call it that) like your OP, which also labelles non-believers as defective in some way, was kinda trollish imo. not wholly trolly or i wouldn't have bothered replying.

One you accept Jesus Christ into your heart you are locked in, there is nothing that you can do to make him not love you or save you. You are guarenteed a spot in heaven.

Which bible did you read that in?

So if you become born again, yet still continue to break Gods' Law, are you still a saved Christian?

It seems that the understanding of faith has been distorted. Many people seem to think faith involves "believing something irrational, no matter what". I would think a better way to describe faith is "confidence" or "courage". Veteran climbers have faith that enables them to climb mountains. They don't have it because they are lunatics, but because they have climbed plenty of mountains before. Novice climbers hesitate at the bottom of the slopes. Should they be chastized for their lack of faith? No. They just haven't had enough experience to develop it.

Works may not get one into heaven, but faith requires action. If Jesus commands that one "love thy neighbor" and one ignores their neighbor day in and day out, can one honestly say that they have faith?

For the most part, faith can be summed up by the following statement: "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are absolutely correct."

Faith, I very much love God and beleive in him. Now heres a question.

Why do people who believe in God get labeled as trolls? I think that alot of people don;t know alot about the Christian faith, even though they think they do. There are alot of misconceptions and literal interpretations that are not true.

1st question - Because a lot of people like to make puppets and masquerade as christian zealots, which gets the sterrotype of the troll. Thats why.

2nd Question (or statement) - a lot of people here also knw quite a bit about Christianity. The problem with the religion is that there are enough people that are vocal enough to make the people here (the ones you are talking about) right.


My issues from Christianity stem from the fact that the religion is used to tell people what to think. Going to church every weekend, listening to the sermen, even in Sunday School, you are told how a certain passage of the bible is interpreted. I think its wrong to tell people what to believe and how to believe it, it puts the personal opinions of one person (the pastor/priest/pope) over the interpretations of every one else.

The church also tends to be conservative on social issues, and that is something that bothers me as well, especially since the catholic church likes to meddle in US politics.

If you want to have a personal faith, it is fine by me. I just don't trust any religion that uses group gatherings to preach the faith. It looks to much like brainwashing for my tastes.

oh i don't know... i've known people ("christians") use that little rule to fuck people sideways all week, really stab people in the back and do some real nasty shit, safe in the knowledge that they go to church on sunday, repent their sins and they start next week with a fresh slate.
they were not "good" christians. they were assholes whether christian or not, but they used this little loophole to do whatever the fuck they wanted with impunity and without moral reprisal. fuckers.

I know what you mean, that realy urks me too. The idea is that you go out and do good works in Gods name and not do that, but some people do, alot of the time these people really don't love God, and going to Church on Sunday dosnt nessesarily get you to heaven.

1st question - Because a lot of people like to make puppets and masquerade as christian zealots, which gets the sterrotype of the troll. Thats why.

amen.

I know what you mean, that realy urks me too. The idea is that you go out and do good works in Gods name and not do that, but some people do, alot of the time these people really don't love God, and going to Church on Sunday dosnt nessesarily get you to heaven.
but surely they have "faith"?

or is there a further prerequisite of having to 'love god' too? or is that encompassed in real faith? :confused:

1st question - Because a lot of people like to make puppets and masquerade as christian zealots, which gets the sterrotype of the troll. Thats why.

2nd Question (or statement) - a lot of people here also knw quite a bit about Christianity. The problem with the religion is that there are enough people that are vocal enough to make the people here (the ones you are talking about) right.


My issues from Christianity stem from the fact that the religion is used to tell people what to think. Going to church every weekend, listening to the sermen, even in Sunday School, you are told how a certain passage of the bible is interpreted. I think its wrong to tell people what to believe and how to believe it, it puts the personal opinions of one person (the pastor/priest/pope) over the interpretations of every one else.

The church also tends to be conservative on social issues, and that is something that bothers me as well, especially since the catholic church likes to meddle in US politics.

If you want to have a personal faith, it is fine by me. I just don't trust any religion that uses group gatherings to preach the faith. It looks to much like brainwashing for my tastes.

What I like about my church is that it really isnt that way, and it is actually a conservative church, not a Hellfire and brimstone one, I don't like that kind of thing either. I like our ministers sermons because they aren't like forceful and controlling, but obviosly there is an intended message for everyone to get/understand.

but surely they have "faith"?

or is there a further prerequisite of having to 'love god' too? or is that encompassed in real faith? :confused:

Well, I don't know, how you can have faith in something that you don't love? Aren't the people in your life that you have faith in are the ones that you love? I love God, so I have faith in him.

oh i don't know... i've known people ("christians") use that little rule to fuck people sideways all week, really stab people in the back and do some real nasty shit, safe in the knowledge that they go to church on sunday, repent their sins and they start next week with a fresh slate.
they were not "good" christians. they were assholes whether christian or not, but they used this little loophole to do whatever the fuck they wanted with impunity and without moral reprisal. fuckers.
They suffer from a lack of understanding about what Christianity is and what they need to do in order to be one. As the Bible says, "Striat is the gate and narrow is the Way, and few there be who find it." I suspect this is one of the primary reasons.

If there really is a "heaven," they's gone be a LOT of surprises for folks! :D

Well, I don't know, how you can have faith in something that you don't love? Aren't the people in your life that you have faith in are the ones that you love? I love God, so I have faith in him.

If someone tells you "If you come near my daughter again, I will kill you!" I would have faith that that statement is true, love or no love.

Well, I don't know, how you can have faith in something that you don't love? Aren't the people in your life that you have faith in are the ones that you love? I love God, so I have faith in him.
good point. i can accept that

If there really is a "heaven," they's gone be a LOT of surprises for folks! :D


You betcha!

I like our ministers sermons because they aren't like forceful and controlling, but obviosly there is an intended message for everyone to get/understand.

You don't need to be forceful to tell people what to think, all you have to do is suggest in the right way.

If there really is a "heaven," they's gone be a LOT of surprises for folks! :D
If people do manage to develop their faith, they might just find out that heaven is not a place where you go when you die but the world in which one lives.

"...if the minds of the people are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
-Nichiren Daishonin

Which bible did you read that in?
it's all over the place in Paul's letters.

So if you become born again, yet still continue to break Gods' Law, are you still a saved Christian?
some would argue that if you don't at least try to do better, that your commitment to Christ was never serious at all.

I am Southern Baptist, so yeah I believe the "once saved always saved" thing, but I think a lot of people don't really get "saved" to begin with, it's not about the right words, you can say "I believe in Jesus" all day long, but you have to look at the fruit you are producing to see if you are truly commited or just trying to get a free ride. (although I should point out that there are people that do a lot of "God stuff" that still aren't really commited either, they are trying to work thier way into heaven, it's just not possible to do that)

In the end it's something between you and God. Nobody at all can tell you if you are 'really saved' because nobody knows, except you and God.

You don't need to be forceful to tell people what to think, all you have to do is suggest in the right way.

But see thats just some way that someone interperts it. You don't nessesarily have to believe it, but I tend to liek the messages out minister preaches they speak to me.

My issues from Christianity stem from the fact that the religion is used to tell people what to think. Going to church every weekend, listening to the sermen, even in Sunday School, you are told how a certain passage of the bible is interpreted. I think its wrong to tell people what to believe and how to believe it, it puts the personal opinions of one person (the pastor/priest/pope) over the interpretations of every one else.

The church also tends to be conservative on social issues, and that is something that bothers me as well, especially since the catholic church likes to meddle in US politics.

If you want to have a personal faith, it is fine by me. I just don't trust any religion that uses group gatherings to preach the faith. It looks to much like brainwashing for my tastes.

Playing devil's advocate a moment (haha...:rolleyes:), how do you learn without being taught? Sunday School, real school - when you're a kid, you're not just given a shakespeare play and told to write an essay on its meaning; you analyse as a class, directed to the meanings by the teacher. Later on, when you're older and have developed more analytical skills, there's room for your own interpretation and debate - as long as you can back it up with evidence, readings from the text, you can say what you like!

These are not personal opinions. They're learn-ed arguments, supported by evidence.

Similar story with the Bible - I can't think of a church round here that doesn't have some forum for debate like that, usually in smaller study/social groups. It wouldn't be possible to have an interactive interpretation like that on a sunday, too many people - and before you can have a debate, you need someone to set out a proposal, which you can then modify/argue with/accept as appeals to you. In the small groups I was talking about, this first proposal is the sermon.

As for meeting in groups - I don't know what worries you about it! A personal faith (by choice, not neccessitated, eg. desert island, last man on earth!) is no faith at all - faith without works is nothing, a society is not an individual, that sort of idea. If you've got a faith you need to be able to show it, and that means other people.

it's all over the place in Paul's letters.
Paul wrote his own letters and pretended they were the word of god? :confused:

Paul wasn't godly or anything, was he?

it's all over the place in Paul's letters.


some would argue that if you don't at least try to do better, that your commitment to Christ was never serious at all.

I am Southern Baptist, so yeah I believe the "once saved always saved" thing, but I think a lot of people don't really get "saved" to begin with, it's not about the right words, you can say "I believe in Jesus" all day long, but you have to look at the fruit you are producing to see if you are truly commited or just trying to get a free ride. (although I should point out that there are people that do a lot of "God stuff" that still aren't really commited either, they are trying to work thier way into heaven, it's just not possible to do that)

In the end it's something between you and God. Nobody at all can tell you if you are 'really saved' because nobody knows, except you and God.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree. Saying that you believe means that you do, you have to feel it. And some of those who need proof or another way to notice that God is there or real hopefully something will come your way to aid you, it happend to me.

One you accept Jesus Christ into your heart you are locked in, there is nothing that you can do to make him not love you or save you. You are guarenteed a spot in heaven.
Hardly.

If people do manage to develop their faith, they might just find out that heaven is not a place where you go when you die but the world in which one lives.

"...if the minds of the people are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
-Nichiren Daishonin
Perhaps so. As it says in The Gospel of Thomas ( one of the "Aprocropa" and not a cannoical text ): "The kingdom of heaven is in you and all around you. Lift a stone and I am there."

Paul wrote his own letters and pretended they were the word of god? :confused:

Paul wasn't godly or anything, was he?

Paul wrote letters and they were considered to be of such worth, so divinely inspired, they are included in the bible on account of their explanatory power.

That's the idea behind them, anyway. The rationale behind all the books of the bible are just like that - written by humans inspired by god.

Paul wrote his own letters and pretended they were the word of god? :confused:

Paul wasn't godly or anything, was he?
Hey I am not going to get into the whole "is Paul worthy of reading?" argument. I was simply answering the question of where most people get the "place locked in heaven" argument.

As for me I believe that once you are truly saved that you are always saved for my own reasons. Most of them being that I believe that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all my sins, and I take the path to salvation to be accurate because Jesus himself laid it out for me in the Bible.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God" John 3:16-20

For all people, Chrisitian and Non-Christians, I recommend reading "Romans", its my favorite book of the Bible and answers o many questins. It gets really intenese as well. Anyone have any opinions on the book of Romans?

Elgesh']As for meeting in groups - I don't know what worries you about it! A personal faith (by choice, not neccessitated, eg. desert island, last man on earth!) is no faith at all - faith without works is nothing, a society is not an individual, that sort of idea. If you've got a faith you need to be able to show it, and that means other people.
Various excerpts from the Bible ( Primarily The Book of James ):

"Faith without works is dead."

"By their works shall you know them."

"You say you believe that God is one. So do the deamons, and shudder."

"External religious worship that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God is this: to visit and care for the orphans and widows in their affiliction and need, and to keep one's self from being contaminated by [ the evil that is in ] the world."

"If faith does not have works, by itself it is destitute of power, inoperative and dead."

"But someone will say to you, 'You say you have faith, and I have good works. Now, you show me your alleged faith apart from any good works, if you can, and I by my good works will show you my faith."

Various excerpts from the Bible:

"Faith without works is dead."

"By their works shall you know them."

"You say you believe that God is one. So do the deamons, and shudder."

"External religious worship that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God is this: to visit and care for the orphans and widows in their affiliction and need, and to keep one's self from being contaminated by [ the evil that is in ] the world."

"If faith does not have works, by itself it is destitute of power, inoperative and dead."

"But someone will say to you, 'You say you have faith, and I have good works. Now, you show me your alleged faith apart from any good works, if you can, and I by my good works will show you my faith."

I am assuming this is in reference of my statment of "Once you beleive you are saved" Yes Id o agree faith without works is dead. With faith comes works. However the point I am trying to make is like unlike all other religions you don't get to heaven just by works. Like just being a good person without believing isn't gonna get you anywhere.

You know what I think is ironic. Is that many people do not like the Chrisitian faith b/c it seems like that they dont have control over their lives and would rather have control by joining a religion that relies solely on acts. But in reality that is so much harder, I would not be able to do that, we all sin and do wrong. It was such a relief when I first really accepted Christ, like a wight has been lifted off my back. Espesially when all those childhood fantasies of how you get to heaven are gone.(I always was afriad of dieing because I thought that you had to repent right before you died otherwise you'd have sin and would go to hell :D

Various excerpts from the Bible:

"Faith without works is dead."
"By their works shall you know them."


"You say you believe that God is one. So do the deamons, and shudder."

"External religious worship that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God is this: to visit and care for the orphans and widows in their affiliction and need, and to keep one's self from being contaminated by [ the evil that is in ] the world."

"If faith does not have works, by itself it is destitute of power, inoperative and dead."

"But someone will say to you, 'You say you have faith, and I have good works. Now, you show me your alleged faith apart from any good works, if you can, and I by my good works will show you my faith."
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:18-25

It goes back to what I was talking about, you can say you believe but if you aren't willing to lay down your life, give up your will, and do what God asks then do you really believe? are you really commited?

Now as far as "you will know them by thier works" is speaking to Christians about how to tell a false teacher from a Godly person. If someone is saying things that sound good, but you don't see them practicing them in thier life then they are lying.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:18-25

It goes back to what I was talking about, you can say you believe but if you aren't willing to lay down your life, give up your will, and do what God asks then do you really believe? are you really commited?

Now as far as "you will know them by thier works" is speaking to Christians about how to tell a false teacher from a Godly person. If someone is saying things that sound good, but you don't see them practicing them in thier life then they are lying.

I love it, this thread has put me in such a good mood. :) :)

I am assuming this is in reference of my statment of "Once you beleive you are saved" Yes Id o agree faith without works is dead. With faith comes works. However the point I am trying to make is like unlike all other religions you don't get to heaven just by works. Like just being a good person without believing isn't gonna get you anywhere.

You know what I think is ironic. Is that many people do not like the Chrisitian faith b/c it seems like that they dont have control over their lives and would rather have control by joining a religion that relies solely on acts. But in reality that is so much harder, I would not be able to do that, we all sin and do wrong.
The Christian believes that this is why there is so much evil in the world: wars and murder and rape and child abuse ( to name just a few things ). The Bible calls Christians to be "the light of the world," and not just by going to church on Sundays. "If you can't do the walk, then don't talk the talk!"

I think that most telling of all is something Peter said: "If the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked."

"The righteous barely saved?" :eek: Doesn't sound to me as if just church attendance or just "my faith" or any one thing is going to "save" anyone! Which is, I suspect, why Paul says: "Put on the whole armor of God."

The Christian believes that this is why there is so much evil in the world: wars and murder and rape and child abuse ( to name just a few things ). The Bible calls Christians to be "the light of the world," and not just by going to church on Sundays. "If you can't do the walk, then don't talk the talk!"

I think that most telling of all is something Peter said: "If the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked."

"The righteous barely saved?" :eek: Doesn't sound to me as if just church attendance or just "my faith" or any one thing is going to "save" anyone! Which is, I suspect, why Paul says: "Put on the whole armor of God."
yeah, I get what you are saying.;)

Now as far as "you will know them by thier works" is speaking to Christians about how to tell a false teacher from a Godly person. If someone is saying things that sound good, but you don't see them practicing them in thier life then they are lying.
Exactly! As some African-American Christians of my acquaintence are fond of saying: "Man, if you can't walk the walk, then I don't wanna hear that talk!" :D

The Christian believes that this is why there is so much evil in the world: wars and murder and rape and child abuse ( to name just a few things ). The Bible calls Christians to be "the light of the world," and not just by going to church on Sundays. "If you can't do the walk, then don't talk the talk!"

I think that most telling of all is something Peter said: "If the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked."

"The righteous barely saved?" :eek: Doesn't sound to me as if just church attendance or just "my faith" or any one thing is going to "save" anyone! Which is, I suspect, why Paul says: "Put on the whole armor of God."

"The sword, God's Word" is our only defense against the darkness, we had this whole discussion on the "different pieces of armor" of God. Great discussion, really enjoyed it.

I love it, this thread has put me in such a good mood. :) :)
what denomination are you?


just curious.


oh, and just in case you aren't somebody's puppet. It's best not to pay too much attention to some of the things that get said around here. There are a few posters with which you can have an intelligent conversation about Christianity (like good ole Eut) but others are best to ignore. They aren't going to listen to anything you say, they will ask baited questions and when you answer intelligently and don't blow up at them, then they end up flaming you, or worse. ;)

"The sword, God's Word" is our only defense against the darkness, we had this whole discussion on the "different pieces of armor" of God. Great discussion, really enjoyed it.
yeah, I noticed that same thing too, (well kinda) when I was preparing a study on the armour of God, it's funny I had read it since I was a child, but for some reason it popped out at me that night, I have only one weapon of offense and that is the word of God, don't you know I stepped up my Bible study after that :p

... good ole Eut ...
OMG! :eek:

ROFLMAO!!! :D

I have only one weapon of offense [ the Sword of the Word ]
I've always loved bladed weapons! :D

what denomination are you?


just curious.


oh, and just in case you aren't somebody's puppet. It's best not to pay too much attention to some of the things that get said around here. There are a few posters with which you can have an intelligent conversation about Christianity (like good ole Eut) but others are best to ignore. They aren't going to listen to anything you say, they will ask baited questions and when you answer intelligently and don't blow up at them, then they end up flaming you, or worse. ;)

I am actually Episcopalian-USA, which right now we are having some issues with the gays which I am not too happy about. Hopefully it will be corrected at the General Convention 2006, what denomination are you?

So is this an endorcement of faith or anti-faith?

My original post (which the original poster quoted) had nothing to do with rejecting religion but knowing where its place is and about 'using it' in moderation.

Religion is like alcohol, in small doses, it can boost self esteme, provide confidence etc. but in large doses, dellusions of gradure and arrogance take ahold.

It is when people allow religion to complete over take their life, like some sort of bad drug addiction, is when things go wrong - they throw all reason out the window in favour of 'blind faith'.

The best example of this would be, for example gay marriage - the best they can do is quote bible passages, which is completely useless when trying to reason through the arguements on both sides as to the pro's and con's of gay marriage.

The religious types do the same with with homosexuality in general - they simply regurgitate scripture without actuall using any part of their brain to reason without resorting to using fairy time stories.

Actually, did you know that The Word is not the Bible? Think about it ...

Before there was any sort of Bible, the Word of God already existed, yes? It is always being spoken by God, yes? So the Bible is a human attempt to translate this Word into human language, yes? Seems to me that would make it all the more important to "rightly divide" ( i.e. interpret ) just what God's Word is, yes? :)

Exactly! As some African-American Christians of my acquaintence are fond of saying: "Man, if you can't walk the walk, then I don't wanna hear that talk!" :D
yeah, it goes both ways too though, you can be "good" and do all the right things, but without a relationship with Christ you are still sunk.

God's mercy keeps you from getting what you deserve, His grace gets you where you want to be, and your commitment to him is all it takes to recieve these gifts. If you are fully and truly commited though, you are in for a ride. You have to be willing to do whatever needs to be done to do what God asks of you. If you are a "I go to church on Sunday mornings, but I think that's enough of my time" Christian, you really need to pray about what kind of commitment you really have to Christ (or if you in fact have one at all.)

Faith breeds works, and not the other way around. Apple trees make apples, a cherry tree can't make apples, your fruits show who you are, if you are a cherry tree you aren't going to come up with any apples, you may come up with some pretty big cherrys that look like apples on the outside, but when you pick them apart and look inside, you can see that they aren't apples at all.


*I am using the universal "you", although if someone does read this and gets convicted, yeah I suppose I was talking to you personally, but I have no idea who you are, it's like when I was a Sunday school teacher I would think "what the heck am I teaching on this for?" but I would do it anyway, and then get a student who was mad at me after class, then I knew why:p

I am actually Episcopalian-USA, which right now we are having some issues with the gays.
This is one of the places where I part ways with the church. If a gay person wants to attend church, or become a minister, I say "more power to him or her!" Just as things any Christian does are between him and his God, so being gay is between him or her and their God. It's not for me to judge ... ever!

Actually, did you know that The Word is not the Bible? Think about it ...

Before there was any sort of Bible, the Word of God already existed, yes? It is always being spoken by God, yes? So the Bible is a human attempt to translate this Word into human language, yes? Seems to me that would make it all the more important to "rightly divide" ( i.e. interpret ) just what God's Word is, yes? :)
I believe that God speaks to me personally through the Bible, I can read the same things several times and get something new and personal from it every time. So, I suppose I agree with you.

... you can be "good" and do all the right things, but without a relationship with Christ you are still sunk.
This could be the subject of a long and rather intense theological discussion between us. It's one of several areas where I'm not entirely sure the church is accurate.

OMG! :eek:

ROFLMAO!!! :D
yeah, you have to admit though, even though you do get kinda mad about other subjects, you can discuss religion with a cool head. ;) I would have mentioned others, but I don't know much about British Jimmy's Biblical knowledge and I have trouble debating some of them, and I think I am pretty proficient. ;)

I believe that God speaks to me personally through the Bible, I can read the same things several times and get something new and personal from it every time. So, I suppose I agree with you.
:)

God has "spoken" to me through lots of things, hon: a beautiful morning out in the wilderness, the eyes of my children and grandchilden, other people, even great books by people who definitely weren't christians. The list is long.

yeah, you have to admit though, even though you do get kinda mad about other subjects, you can discuss religion with a cool head. ;) I would have mentioned others, but I don't know much about British Jimmy's Biblical knowledge and I have trouble debating some of them, and I think I am pretty proficient. ;)
Heh! You're a trip! :D

Virtually the only times I get "mad" on here are when someone attacks my Country or my "bros" in the military without justification ( IMHO ), and even then, I can come across as "mad" when all I am is just a tad ticked! :D

This could be the subject of a long and rather intense theological discussion between us. It's one of several areas where I'm not entirely sure the church is accurate.
how so?

I am pretty sure it's safe for us to discuss it here, B.J. might be interested in seeing 2 different points of view. lol.


I have to go to bed now though, so I won't be able to re-post until tomorrow (if I can then, I have a funeral to attend:()

I leave you with this verse, that is from Jesus himself.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

You'll know when Eutrusca is mad at you when you are in the crosshairs. ;)

Actually, by then it's too late, isn't it? :eek:

:)

God has "spoken" to me through lots of things, hon: a beautiful morning out in the wilderness, the eyes of my children and grandchilden, other people, even great books by people who definitely weren't christians. The list is long.
yep. me too.

Heh! You're a trip! :D

Virtually the only times I get "mad" on here are when someone attacks my Country or my "bros" in the military without justification ( IMHO ), and even then, I can come across as "mad" when all I am is just a tad ticked! :D
I get mad about that stuff too. My brother in law is in the Army, and I am related to a lot of Marines, so I think I am a little too close sometimes. My brother in law just got back from Iraq not too long ago. I think I have been to close to it, I know the sacrifice the family goes through, I know how much the soldiers love thier country, and I know that they would give thier life for all of us to have the freedom to bash them, I just wish people wouldn't. :(

You'll know when Eutrusca is mad at you when you are in the crosshairs. ;)

Actually, by then it's too late, isn't it? :eek:
LOL! Um ... use to be, but it's been awhile, so I might miss and hit ... somewhere else than the head! :D

how so?

I am pretty sure it's safe for us to discuss it here, B.J. might be interested in seeing 2 different points of view. lol.

I have to go to bed now though, so I won't be able to re-post until tomorrow (if I can then, I have a funeral to attend:()

I leave you with this verse, that is from Jesus himself.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Oy vey! Heh!

Are you SURE you wanna get into this on here??? :headbang:

This is one of the places where I part ways with the church. If a gay person wants to attend church, or become a minister, I say "more power to him or her!" Just as things any Christian does are between him and his God, so being gay is between him or her and their God. It's not for me to judge ... ever!

For me, its not worth the trouble, hence the reason I left the church.

I'm not going to change a part of me simply to satisfy a small number of ivory tower sitters who consider that my 'sexuality' is a sin - and thus I left the church.

If these people wish to want to know why the number of people attending church is declining, they only need to have a good stare in the mirror for the answer - people want a church that is accepting, not judgemental, they want one that provides support rather than spreading condemnation.

It seems that in the next 20 years, the only people who will be attending church are those who like the concept of having their whole lives regulated like some sort of over bearing government.

yep. me too.
I rather suspected you would say that. :fluffle:

I get mad about that stuff too. My brother in law is in the Army, and I am related to a lot of Marines, so I think I am a little too close sometimes. My brother in law just got back from Iraq not too long ago. I think I have been to close to it, I know the sacrifice the family goes through, I know how much the soldiers love thier country, and I know that they would give thier life for all of us to have the freedom to bash them, I just wish people wouldn't. :(
Me too, hon. Me too.

I see the US military as one of the few remaining repositories of courage and honor and even idealism. Yes, soldiers are just as human as anyone else, but at least most of them try to rise above it. :)

For me, its not worth the trouble, hence the reason I left the church.

I'm not going to change a part of me simply to satisfy a small number of ivory tower sitters who consider that my 'sexuality' is a sin - and thus I left the church.

If these people wish to want to know why the number of people attending church is declining, they only need to have a good stare in the mirror for the answer - people want a church that is accepting, not judgemental, they want one that provides support rather than spreading condemnation.

It seems that in the next 20 years, the only people who will be attending church are those who like the concept of having their whole lives regulated like some sort of over bearing government.
There is truth in what you say, which saddens me greatly. :(

It's not without reason that the first people Jesus condemned were "good, church-going people" ( i.e. the Scribes and Parasees ).

Oh what did I miss? I was taking a shower. Anything that someone wanted to ask me?

There is truth in what you say, which saddens me greatly. :(

It's not without reason that the first people Jesus condemned were "good, church-going people" ( i.e. the Scribes and Parasees ).

Jesus spent his existance spreading the news of helping the down trodden, embracing the outcast - not once in his whole existance did he come out and say, "I comdemn homosexuals and homosexuality; I comdemn the same sex couple who have spent their whole lives loving each other in a monogamous relationship".

The people Jesus condemned were those in ivory towers, people who went around claiming the moral high ground, those who placed dogma higher than helping ones fellow man.

His basic message was those who were down trodden, you are valued, and those in the ivory towers who comdemned, need a good hard look into your heart and realise that you're not perfect either.

But like I say, there are too many Christians who place a higher regards to man made dogma than trying to live a Christ like existance of living a selfless and compassionate existance.

Jesus spent his existance spreading the news of helping the down trodden, embracing the outcast - not once in his whole existance did he come out and say, "I comdemn homosexuals and homosexuality; I comdemn the same sex couple who have spent their whole lives loving each other in a monogamous relationship".

The people Jesus condemned were those in ivory towers, people who went around claiming the moral high ground, those who placed dogma higher than helping ones fellow man.

His basic message was those who were down trodden, you are valued, and those in the ivory towers who comdemned, need a good hard look into your heart and realise that you're not perfect either.

But like I say, there are too many Christians who place a higher regards to man made dogma than trying to live a Christ like existance of living a selfless and compassionate existance.

I see your point, but it does actually say that homosexuality is a sin. I think this is interpereted in the sense off all forms of it, pedophile(man/boy), paegan sexual acts,and even longstanding monogamous homosexual relationships. This is a sin listed in the bible and I know htat we all sin, but I dont think it is appropriate for a gay perosn to be part of the church or a leader in the churhc esp.(I don't understand how that even happend...) But what I think is even more wrong about it is that the openly gay elected bishop said "what a great day for gays" That is saying that he has a gay agenda, not one for Gods.

I see your point, but it does actually say that homosexuality is a sin. I think this is interpereted in the sense off all forms of it, pedophile(man/boy), paegan sexual acts,and even longstanding monogamous homosexual relationships. This is a sin listed in the bible and I know htat we all sin, but I dont think it is appropriate for a gay perosn to be part of the church or a leader in the churhc esp.(I don't understand how that even happend...) But what I think is even more wrong about it is that the openly gay elected bishop said "what a great day for gays" That is saying that he has a gay agenda, not one for Gods.

And thus you confirm yet again, the reason I left the church; you can now pat yourself on the back and get a cookie in celebration.

yeah, it goes both ways too though, you can be "good" and do all the right things, but without a relationship with Christ you are still sunk.

God's mercy keeps you from getting what you deserve, His grace gets you where you want to be, and your commitment to him is all it takes to recieve these gifts. If you are fully and truly commited though, you are in for a ride. You have to be willing to do whatever needs to be done to do what God asks of you. If you are a "I go to church on Sunday mornings, but I think that's enough of my time" Christian, you really need to pray about what kind of commitment you really have to Christ (or if you in fact have one at all.)


I've been looking for a non-flamefest religion thread for a while so I can ask this question (this isn't intended to start an argument, honest, I'm just curious):

As I understand it, Original Sin means that all humans are born guilty and have to accept Christ to absolve this guilt. I just wondered how Christians who believe in evolution support this 'born guilty' principle.

Thanks.:)

I've been looking for a non-flamefest religion thread for a while so I can ask this question (this isn't intended to start an argument, honest, I'm just curious):

As I understand it, Original Sin means that all humans are born guilty and have to accept Christ to absolve this guilt. I just wondered how Christians who believe in evolution support this 'born guilty' principle.

Thanks.:)

A Brilliant Question. I think Karl Rahner had some kind of explanation that because we benifit from the sins of our forefathers, we are somehow implicated in them. My dad uses the example of the shoes I wear. I bought them quite legitimately, but what if they have been made by poor slave children in some factory in Asia? My money then contributes in some way to their enslavement.

I'm not entirely happy with this answer, but I'm sure there is one out there...

I've been looking for a non-flamefest religion thread for a while so I can ask this question (this isn't intended to start an argument, honest, I'm just curious):

As I understand it, Original Sin means that all humans are born guilty and have to accept Christ to absolve this guilt. I just wondered how Christians who believe in evolution support this 'born guilty' principle.

Thanks.:)

Well, what do you know about recent research into epigenetics? Interesting field. Basically, our genes are not set in stone at conception. Outside factors - chemicals, toxins, brain chemicals, nutrition etc. - can affect us (at the level of our genes) at certain sensitive periods - notably at the time of gemete cell formation in both sexes. These changes are not 'reset' when we have children, but are passed on - inherited! Experiences are inherited, not just genes! Check out Pembrey, Reik & Dean, and... oh, there's an American resaercher with a Jewish name, did work on cortisol transmission across generations (suggests that our personality predispositions mat be a result of our anscetor's experiences - including their actions and reactions).

Combine this with the idea that ever since we evolved enough cognitively to take a moral perspective on our actions, emotions, and thinking, invariably every individual has exploited others, had the option of doing right by others or by themselves, and chosen to benefit themselves. No surprise there, it's the human condition.

If these experiences we have are passed on to our children through the concepts of epigenetics, and these experiences themselves are partly the result of immoral (as is inevitable with humans) actions, behaviour and even emotions (brain chemicals involved in regulating emotions!), then you've got a christian concept of passing down original sin given a _mechanical_ explanation by recent research into micro-evolution and genetics.

Now, I don't say that's definitely how it works (or even that god and original sin definitely exist), but I think it's a reasonable position to take in the debate about original sin being passed on :)

-snip-

Elgesh]-snip-

Thank you to both of you, I can see the reasoning behind it now even if I don't believe in it.

Have a cookie.:)

I think that alot of people don;t know alot about the Christian faith, even though they think they do.
That's very true, and a lot of the people who know little about the Christian faith are supposedly Christians. I've lost count of the number of times that I (an atheist) have had to explain basic concepts taught by their churches to so-called Christians. And that's quite apart from all the Christian history etc which the churches don't teach!

That's very true, and a lot of the people who know little about the Christian faith are supposedly Christians. I've lost count of the number of times that I (an atheist) have had to explain basic concepts taught by their churches to so-called Christians. And that's quite apart from all the Christian history etc which the churches don't teach!
I blame the high pressure evangelist types. I can't count how many services that I have been to where the preacher says "all you have to do is say this prayer, and you get a free ride to heaven, it's no big deal, just walk down the isle and fill out a card and we will give you a bookmark that says you are a Christian" Then they start the high pressure "everyone bow your head and close your eyes, raise your hand if you're going to hell" and then they start "ask the person next to you if they died right now where would they go?, if they don't answer or hesitate bring them to me"

Being a Christian is one of the biggest decisions of your life, it's not like filling out a movie rental card, it's more than that it's a life long commitment. If they approached any other commitment in this way people would cry out that they were irresponsible, imagine a preacher "Turn to the person next to you, ask them if they are marrried, if they say no or hesitate then bring them down, we will fill out a license and then give them a bookmark that says who they are married to now"

I understand the motivation to try to evangelize, but I would rather be very upfront with someone about the decision that they are considering, letting them know what they are getting into, rather than misleading someone about what it really means to be a Christian, than to have them think they are and end up with a BIG surprise in the afterlife.

It seems that the understanding of faith has been distorted. Many people seem to think faith involves "believing something irrational, no matter what". I would think a better way to describe faith is "confidence" or "courage". Veteran climbers have faith that enables them to climb mountains. They don't have it because they are lunatics, but because they have climbed plenty of mountains before. Novice climbers hesitate at the bottom of the slopes. Should they be chastized for their lack of faith? No. They just haven't had enough experience to develop it.

Works may not get one into heaven, but faith requires action. If Jesus commands that one "love thy neighbor" and one ignores their neighbor day in and day out, can one honestly say that they have faith?

For the most part, faith can be summed up by the following statement: "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are absolutely correct."

Excellent reply.

I've been looking for a non-flamefest religion thread for a while so I can ask this question (this isn't intended to start an argument, honest, I'm just curious):

As I understand it, Original Sin means that all humans are born guilty and have to accept Christ to absolve this guilt. I just wondered how Christians who believe in evolution support this 'born guilty' principle.

Thanks.:)
I have kinda a weird view on original sin, I believe that people are born flawed, even if a baby hasn't sinned (although we can't be sure they haven't because we aren't privy to their thoughts) they are born with a sin-nature, meaning they not only have the capacity to sin, but they have the tendacy to do so. We as humans can't overcome our sin-nature and at some point will sin. Sin seperates us from God. God is perfect and can't sin, He can't even be in the presence of it, without Jesus to bridge the gap, we would be eternally separtated.

I suppose that in regards to evolution, I am not sure. I do believe that evolution happens, we change to best fit our envirnonments. I am not sure that the current theory is absolutly perfect. (that is a whole other thred though) I think it is difficult to try to combine theology and science, but if I tried, I would liken it to my daughters having a celiac gene, they had the gene when they were born, they got it from me, they had celiac disease their whole lives, it just wasn't "turned on" it took an outside influence to "wake it up".

My grandfather had the gene but his celiac disease didn't 'turn on' until he was 78, my youngest daughters 'turned on' at 11 months, and my oldest's at 4 years. They all had the same gene but it manifested differently because of their actions.

I am not sure that any of that answered your question. :confused: Sorry if I just wasted your time. ;)

I know what you mean, that realy urks me too. The idea is that you go out and do good works in Gods name and not do that, but some people do, alot of the time these people really don't love God, and going to Church on Sunday dosnt nessesarily get you to heaven.

Being two-faced is not a personality trait that is singularly unique to christians. You will find this trait in a % of every aspect of humanity, regardless of religion, economic status, race, gender, whatever....

One you accept Jesus Christ into your heart you are locked in, there is nothing that you can do to make him not love you or save you. You are guarenteed a spot in heaven.


Which goes to show how utterly stupid that idea really is.
Its saying, flat out, that a man like Hitler, could make a deathbed conversion, and all of his sins would be forgiven.

What kind of mentally retarded god would allow somone like that into heaven?

Which goes to show how utterly stupid that idea really is.
that wasn't very nice.
Its saying, flat out, that a man like Hitler, could make a deathbed conversion, and all of his sins would be forgiven.
yes.

What kind of mentally retarded god would allow somone like that into heaven?
Sin separates you from God, it's not "how bad you are" according to human standards someone who lies once and someone who murders 5 million people are in the same boat, you sinned and need forgiveness, God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone's sin, not just people who "aren't that bad". Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of the world, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness.

that wasn't very nice.

Maybe not, and if not, I apologise, but I also stand by it.



Sin separates you from God, it's not "how bad you are" according to human standards someone who lies once and someone who murders 5 million people are in the same boat, you sinned and need forgiveness, God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone's sin, not just people who "aren't that bad". Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of the world, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness.

So, youre saying that no matter HOW bad a person could be, no matter how much blood is on his hands, that a living embodiment of evil, could simply make a last minute confession, and all will be utterly forgiven, and he can claim an eternal reward, just like all the other people who led decent lives, and showed mercy, and piety?

I say horseshit.

I see your point, but it does actually say that homosexuality is a sin. I think this is interpereted in the sense off all forms of it, pedophile(man/boy), paegan sexual acts,and even longstanding monogamous homosexual relationships. This is a sin listed in the bible and I know htat we all sin, but I dont think it is appropriate for a gay perosn to be part of the church or a leader in the churhc esp.(I don't understand how that even happend...) But what I think is even more wrong about it is that the openly gay elected bishop said "what a great day for gays" That is saying that he has a gay agenda, not one for Gods.

Er, it doesn't actually say that homosexuality is a sin. It only says that men shouldn't sleep together. The church should welcome anyone regardless of what they've done or what they do. No-one is perfect and no-one suddenly becomes perfect when they become a christian. We're all sinners, and we need to encourage one another to move away from our respective sins in a context of love with Christ's help. Leadership is another matter though, because "the overseer must be above reproach" 1 Timothy 3:2 (Paul again!)

Maybe not, and if not, I apologise, but I also stand by it.
I am just saying maybe you could more eloquently state that you disagree.

So, youre saying that no matter HOW bad a person could be, no matter how much blood is on his hands, that a living embodiment of evil, could simply make a last minute confession, and all will be utterly forgiven, and he can claim an eternal reward, just like all the other people who led decent lives, and showed mercy, and piety?
yep, and I don't say it, the Bible does.

I say horseshit.
you may think so, but we are talking from a Christian perspective. We have had a pretty civil thred going, I wonder why you feel the need to add such sentiments.

*snipped for length*
I believe that faith is a last-resort kind of thing. I have to have faith in the basic theory of materialism, for example. I have to have "faith" in basic laws of the reality I inhabit, because these laws are so fundamental that they cannot be proven or disproven without stepping outside of this reality.

Beyond these basic premises, however, I believe faith is a crutch. There is no shame in using a crutch if you have a crippled mind, but I am constantly disgusted by the number of people who choose to hobble through their lives when they are perfectly capable of standing on their own.

I am just saying maybe you could more eloquently state that you disagree.

Sometimes, eloquence must take a backseat to prudence.


yep, and I don't say it, the Bible does.

The bible says a lot of stuff that is also rather silly.
Read Leviticus much?
Thats the one that says that two men having sex is an abomination.
It also says that if you were to to rape an engaged woman, that she should be scourged, and not killed.
Cuz, you know....she had it coming, and must be punished.


you may think so, but we are talking from a Christian perspective. We have had a pretty civil thred going, I wonder why you feel the need to add such sentiments.

Why?

Simply becuase I feel the need to speak against an ideal that seems incredibly stupid from any rational mind.
The very idea that any wise, loving, benevolent god, would allow a person like Hitler, to make a deathbed conversion, and be granted paradise, is the ultimate in hippocracy.
If this is true, why dont we all just go out, and murder anyone we want, beat the shit oout of any woman who dares say "no" to us, and molest a few kids?

After all, Jesus will forgive me, and I can go to heaven.

Which goes to show how utterly stupid that idea really is.
Its saying, flat out, that a man like Hitler, could make a deathbed conversion, and all of his sins would be forgiven.

What kind of mentally retarded god would allow somone like that into heaven?

I think a part of the deathbed conversion bit involves true sorrow and repentence, an acknowledgement and a feeling of genuine greif for the wrongs you did - it's not just saying 'oh gee, well, now I believe!' as a get out of jail free card - if you don't feel it, it doesn't count.

Elgesh']I think a part of the deathbed conversion bit involves true sorrow and repentence, an acknowledgement and a feeling of genuine greif for the wrongs you did - it's not just saying 'oh gee, well, now I believe!' as a get out of jail free card - if you don't feel it, it doesn't count.
Who cares if you really feel it? If you spent your life doing horrible, unimaginable things, why should "feeling bad" at the last moment get you into paradise for the rest of eternity?

Elgesh']I think a part of the deathbed conversion bit involves true sorrow and repentence, an acknowledgement and a feeling of genuine greif for the wrongs you did - it's not just saying 'oh gee, well, now I believe!' as a get out of jail free card - if you don't feel it, it doesn't count.


I fail to see how any amount of sincerity, could ever wash away so much blood.

"Thou shalt not kill"...remember?
If you are personally responsible for the death of millions....thats millions of broken commandments, isnt it?

Who cares if you really feel it? If you spent your life doing horrible, unimaginable things, why should "feeling bad" at the last moment get you into paradise for the rest of eternity?
nobody deserves heaven, even the people who think they are living a "good life" that is why it's called grace.

nobody deserves heaven, even the people who think they are living a "good life" that is why it's called grace.

So, we dont deserve what Jesus has promised us?

nobody deserves heaven, even the people who think they are living a "good life" that is why it's called grace.
Yeah yeah, all humans are sinful dirty creatures...I've heard that old routine plenty of times. It's very nice for keeping the ignorant masses in line, I'm sure, but those of use with dignity and self respect are more likely to laugh in your face.

If some "loving God" created us as we are, and then proclaims us unworthy of his "grace," then I think it's pretty clear that he's a poor craftsman with a bizarre set of ethics. Eternity spent with him would probably become unbearable, so I will kindly take the lake of fire, if it please you.

So, we dont deserve what Jesus has promised us?
nobody is worthy of heaven. (no human) Jesus sacrificed himself to give us the gift of life. We deserve death, but are given the gift of life. We can't do anything to be worthy of it, Jesus has mercy on us, and gives us the benifit of grace. He does this because He loves us, not because of anything we could do to deserve it.

Yeah yeah, all humans are sinful dirty creatures...I've heard that old routine plenty of times. It's very nice for keeping the ignorant masses in line, I'm sure, but those of use with dignity and self respect are more likely to laugh in your face.
so I don't have dignity and respect?

If some "loving God" created us as we are, and then proclaims us unworthy of his "grace," then I think it's pretty clear that he's a poor craftsman with a bizarre set of ethics. Eternity spent with him would probably be the worst punishment imaginable, so I will kindly take the lake of fire, if it please you.
it's your decision.

Who cares if you really feel it? If you spent your life doing horrible, unimaginable things, why should "feeling bad" at the last moment get you into paradise for the rest of eternity?

The idea is that the christian god cares; about everyone; if everyone's your child and your own, you care about them.

Human he's not! It's an advanced for of forgiveness open to those who repent - intellectual and affective acknowledgement and identification with your victims.

I imagine it's almost impossible to really convert in this way. The sheer amount of grief for others is all but impossible to feel and think about, and it'll be mixed in with self-pity (especially if we're talking about a deathbed dealie), which isn't the deal. Deathbed conversions and true repentence are mentioned for a sake of completeness in christian ideology as being theoretically possible, but hugely rare, highly unlikely, and no substitute at all for living a christian life.

nobody is worthy of heaven. (no human) Jesus sacrificed himself to give us the gift of life. We deserve death, but are given the gift of life. We can't do anything to be worthy of it, Jesus has mercy on us, and gives us the benifit of grace. He does this because He loves us, not because of anything we could do to deserve it.


So...he loves us, even though we are the scum of the earth, and dont deserve what we were promised?

How does that make any sense outside your bible?

I think one of the more fundamental problems is that people misunderstand what "faith" means- or, at least, what it should mean.

Faith should be a strength in your convictions- but strength in your convictions doesn't mean casually ignoring anything which points against them. I have faith that my friends won't lie to me- but it doesn't follow that I would ignore any information which might give me good reason to think otherwise.

Faith is a good thing. Blind, unexamined, dogmatic faith is not (as, incidentally, is pointed out in Jeremiah: 7).

So...he loves us, even though we are the scum of the earth, and dont deserve what we were promised?

How does that make any sense outside your bible?...

So, we dont deserve what Jesus has promised us?
No! :p I can promise you, and give you, a gift you don't 'deserve'. It being christmas, I'm about to do just that for a whole bunch of friends and family; not because of what they've done/deserved, but as an expression of love.

Elgesh']Deathbed conversions and true repentence are mentioned for a sake of completeness in christian ideology as being theoretically possible, but hugely rare, highly unlikely, and no substitute at all for living a christian life.

No, its not.

An honest repentance, even at the moment of death, is sufficient, according to the bible.
You dont need to do anything, or live by any code, whatsoever, and long as before you croak, you mean it.

Elgesh']No! :p I can promise you, and give you, a gift you don't 'deserve'. It being christmas, I'm about to do just that for a whole bunch of friends and family; not because of what they've done/deserved, but as an expression of love.


Hmm.heres a thought for you.

Lets say, I were God, and you, a christian.
Lets say, youre whole life, you have worked in my name, and done what you thought I would ask of you.
You led a good Christian Life, and dutifully served the Lord.

Now, lets say you end up sharing Heaven with Hitler, who did nothing akin to what you did. He just makes the hypothetical conversion, and BAM! Youre bunking with the man who killed six million Jews.

How would that make you feel?

No, its not.

An honest repentance, even at the moment of death, is sufficient, according to the bible.
You dont need to do anything, or live by any code, whatsoever, and long as before you croak, you mean it.

That's true. It's also so hugely difficult and inherently improbable that it's not recommended as a way to cheat the 'system', for want of abetter expression.

Is it even possible, after a life of doing xyz, to _really_ mean, really feel the opposite? And if you die unexpectedly, you're screwed. Not a recommended way to life and die, though yes, it's mentioned because it's a possibility. It's really conceptualised as being a part of a christian life - an honest repenting your sins at the end, as a reflection of the person you truly are through your acceptence of god. In of itself, yes, this act of repentence at the end is enough, but it's almost impossible to just 'tack it on' to the end of a knowingly wicked life, is the idea.

This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.
This is what Buddhism is about, putting your faith into the teachigns of teh Buddha. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificent and true are people who can't commit to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Buddhism is so awesome, you can liberate yourself from the cycle of death and rebirth and don't have to believe in anything but yourself and follow the teachings of the Buddha.

Fucking knock-offs of Pascal's wager.

so I don't have dignity and respect?

Well, not if you walk around believing that nothing you do makes you "worthy." Not if you believe that your actions and your values mean nothing next to a pat on the head from some celestial father figure who flat out tells you that nothing you do will ever be good enough.

If you believe those things, you are experiencing a textbook abusive relationship, in which your abuser asserts his control by removing any means of finding value in yourself outside of his approval. This tactic is very common among abusers, because fostering feelings of isolation and personal unworthiness helps to ensure that the abuse victim will neither complain nor attempt to leave the abusive situation.

You are in the same situation as women whose husbands call them fat, ugly, stupid, and worthless, so that the women will feel powerless and submissive. You are in the same situation as children who are whipped and abused, who are told that the beatings are their own fault because they made Daddy so mad. You are in the same situation as countless abuse victims who are terrorized into submission by threats of even worse abuse to come, and who are quieted by manipulative promises that everything will be okay if (and ONLY if) they shut up and do exactly as Daddy tells them.

The good news is that there are ample resources available to help abuse victims. Indeed, if you simply describe your image of God to a social worker but you refer to God as "my husband" or "my father," they will have plenty of advice for you on how to escape this situation. Of course, as is the case with most abuse victims, none of this will work until you are ready to leave your abuser. But when you are ready to take that step there will be many people waiting to help you.

No, its not.

An honest repentance, even at the moment of death, is sufficient, according to the bible.
You dont need to do anything, or live by any code, whatsoever, and long as before you croak, you mean it.

Perhaps the issue is that repentance doesn't just mean being sorry or "feeling bad". Repentance means accepting Jesus as the ruler of everything including the self, which would be hard (though not impossible) at the end of a life without that kind of submission. In Heaven Jesus is in charge of everything with no exceptions so the deathbed conversion might lead to a bit of a shock ;) .

Hmm.heres a thought for you.

Lets say, I were God, and you, a christian.
Lets say, youre whole life, you have worked in my name, and done what you thought I would ask of you.
You led a good Christian Life, and dutifully served the Lord.

Now, lets say you end up sharing Heaven with Hitler, who did nothing akin to what you did. He just makes the hypothetical conversion, and BAM! Youre bunking with the man who killed six million Jews.

How would that make you feel?

It's unanswersable. I wouldn't be the same 'person' I am now as I would be in that heaven - no one will. The idea behind it is your earthly self - the things that dragged you down, and the things that you did to drag you down - is stripped away, and you're left with your true self; which was always inside you but was only intermittently expressed. I _imagine_ this 'soul' is sometimes expressed in what we do, think, and feel, but only rarely.

Consequently, I'm not going to view other people as better or worse than me no matter what they did compared to what I did while on earth. That got left behind when they died, and when I died.

It's pretty hard to conceptualise, isn't it? Trust me, it's even harder to express!

edit: imagine a person is a society, and the soul is an individual. The society may be evil, but an individual, the soul, good. God saves the soul, the true part of us. That's a v.v.v.v.v. crude analogy (there's only 1 'real' individual in this 'society'), but it might make it clearer?

So...he loves us, even though we are the scum of the earth, and dont deserve what we were promised?

How does that make any sense outside your bible?
The "love" of the Bible is worthless, Squatches. It is a "love" that is given only to self-professed worthless individuals. It is a "love" that has no standards other than subservience. It is a "love" that has nothing to do with the individual or his worth, but is indiscriminately given to any who are willing to debase themselves and forswear any individual merit.

In my opinion, it is better to be hated than to be dirtied by that kind of "love."

Elgesh']It's unanswersable. I wouldn't be the same 'person' I am now as I would be in that heaven - no one will. The idea behind it is your earthly self - the things that dragged you down, and the things that you did to drag you down - is stripped away, and you're left with your true self; which was always inside you but was only intermittently expressed. I _imagine_ this 'soul' is sometimes expressed in what we do, think, and feel, but only rarely.

Consequently, I'm not going to view other people as better or worse than me no matter what they did compared to what I did while on earth. That got left behind when they died, and when I died.

It's pretty hard to conceptualise, isn't it? Trust me, it's even harder to express!
So basically the "you" in heaven is no longer you. It is the good and bad in our lives that makes us who we are.

oh i don't know... i've known people ("christians") use that little rule to fuck people sideways all week, really stab people in the back and do some real nasty shit, safe in the knowledge that they go to church on sunday, repent their sins and they start next week with a fresh slate.
they were not "good" christians. they were assholes whether christian or not, but they used this little loophole to do whatever the fuck they wanted with impunity and without moral reprisal. fuckers.

those people are not christians at all. part of repenting which is sort of understood is that you do not intend to re-offend. if you do nasty things and then ask forgiveness with the full intention of doing more nasty things later, you are not forgiven.

those people are not christians at all. part of repenting which is sort of understood is that you do not intend to re-offend. if you do nasty things and then ask forgiveness with the full intention of doing more nasty things later, you are not forgiven.
Ahh, but they don't "intend" to do it again. I've talked to such people, and they feel very very sorry at the time. They feel very very sure they'll never, ever do such a thing again. And they feel this way each and every week...

Well, not if you walk around believing that nothing you do makes you "worthy." Not if you believe that your actions and your values mean nothing next to a pat on the head from some celestial father figure who flat out tells you that nothing you do will ever be good enough.

If you believe those things, you are experiencing a textbook abusive relationship, in which your abuser asserts his control by removing any means of finding value in yourself outside of his approval. This tactic is very common among abusers, because fostering feelings of isolation and personal unworthiness helps to ensure that the abuse victim will neither complain nor attempt to leave the abusive situation.

You are in the same situation as women whose husbands call them fat, ugly, stupid, and worthless, so that the women will feel powerless and submissive. You are in the same situation as children who are whipped and abused, who are told that the beatings are their own fault because they made Daddy so mad. You are in the same situation as countless abuse victims who are terrorized into submission by threats of even worse abuse to come, and who are quieted by manipulative promises that everything will be okay if (and ONLY if) they shut up and do exactly as Daddy tells them.

The good news is that there are ample resources available to help abuse victims. Indeed, if you simply describe your image of God to a social worker but you refer to God as "my husband" or "my father," they will have plenty of advice for you on how to escape this situation. Of course, as is the case with most abuse victims, none of this will work until you are ready to leave your abuser. But when you are ready to take that step there will be many people waiting to help you.

My parents never abused me but I could never change how much they loved me by what I did. If I screwed up they were disappointed and if I did something good they were pleased and proud. The love and care always stayed the same - it was all and more than I needed but I never earned it.

So basically the "you" in heaven is no longer you. It is the good and bad in our lives that makes us who we are.

Well, see my edit to that, reposted here for conveniece:

"edit: imagine a person is a society, and the soul is an individual. The society may be evil, but an individual, the soul, good. God saves the soul, the true part of us. That's a v.v.v.v.v. crude analogy (there's only 1 'real' individual in this 'society'), but it might make it clearer?"

To that you could add analogies like the real you is the diamond in the lump of coal, or alternatively the grit in the pearl etc etc. The accretions of the world aren't the real you, aren't 'who' we are', but just that - accretions, layers of junk that _hide_ what we're really like. Again, it's a complex metaphysical idea I'm aware I'm not expressing well, but that's the concept we're dealing with.

I dont' really think there is a soul... but at any rate, I think that people are who they are because of their experiences. If I had been treated well by my peers growing up then I'd be a different person today. If I went back in time and changed one "mistake" in my life, it would change everything about me that has happened since.

In heaven since your mistakes and wrongs and negative experiences and emotions are all gone, a part of you is missing. Furthermore, how can you have the good without the bad to compare it to?

The christian idea of heaven is entirely unappealing to me quite honestly. I don't want eternal happiness, it would get boring and stale... either let me be reborn to keep myself amused or end it when I die.

I have kinda a weird view on original sin, I believe that people are born flawed, even if a baby hasn't sinned (although we can't be sure they haven't because we aren't privy to their thoughts) they are born with a sin-nature, meaning they not only have the capacity to sin, but they have the tendacy to do so. We as humans can't overcome our sin-nature and at some point will sin. Sin seperates us from God. God is perfect and can't sin, He can't even be in the presence of it, without Jesus to bridge the gap, we would be eternally separtated.

I suppose that in regards to evolution, I am not sure. I do believe that evolution happens, we change to best fit our envirnonments. I am not sure that the current theory is absolutly perfect. (that is a whole other thred though) I think it is difficult to try to combine theology and science, but if I tried, I would liken it to my daughters having a celiac gene, they had the gene when they were born, they got it from me, they had celiac disease their whole lives, it just wasn't "turned on" it took an outside influence to "wake it up".

My grandfather had the gene but his celiac disease didn't 'turn on' until he was 78, my youngest daughters 'turned on' at 11 months, and my oldest's at 4 years. They all had the same gene but it manifested differently because of their actions.

I am not sure that any of that answered your question. :confused: Sorry if I just wasted your time. ;)

Thanks for taking the time to answer.:) Yes, you did answer my question; I just wanted some examples of how Christians understood the concept of all humans being 'born in sin' without going back to any particular act by an ancestor.

Incidently, I've never seen a religion thread last so long without descending into a flame-war.:eek:

I dont' really think there is a soul... but at any rate, I think that people are who they are because of their experiences. If I had been treated well by my peers growing up then I'd be a different person today. If I went back in time and changed one "mistake" in my life, it would change everything about me that has happened since.

In heaven since your mistakes and wrongs and negative experiences and emotions are all gone, a part of you is missing. Furthermore, how can you have the good without the bad to compare it to?

The christian idea of heaven is entirely unappealing to me quite honestly. I don't want eternal happiness, it would get boring and stale... either let me be reborn to keep myself amused or end it when I die.

Well, the christian thinking really requires a soul... without it, the 'heaven' bit _is_ pointless and dreary, exactly. The point is, the soul is conceptualised as possessing a different set of priorities/subject to different 'rules and regulations' than homo sapiens. 'Happiness' in heaven, in this case, is a sort of analogy - we're dealing with the unknowable, so to try to begin to understand it, we make use of analogy, metaphor, symbolism etc. Hard stuff to understand, I reckon. God, I'm debating all this stuff and I just started my _holidays_! :p

On a side note, with regard to grace and how one acquires it:

I'm not a Lutheran, or even a Christian, but Luther's concept of grace seems to make a lot of sense. It's based on the concept that good fruit can only spring from a good tree: if the tree is diseased or withered, the fruit won't be very good either. Hence, good works are an outward sign that someone's soul is in a state of grace (and the second council of the Vatican would seem to imply that this applies whether the person in question is aware of it or not).

In other words, good works don't cause salvation per se- good works are a sign that someone is already saved. Whether or not someone has pledged themselves to Jesus is irrelevant: if they're doing immoral acts, it's an outward sign of inward decay.

On a side note, with regard to grace and how one acquires it:

I'm not a Lutheran, or even a Christian, but Luther's concept of grace seems to make a lot of sense. It's based on the concept that good fruit can only spring from a good tree: if the tree is diseased or withered, the fruit won't be very good either. Hence, good works are an outward sign that someone's soul is in a state of grace (and the second council of the Vatican would seem to imply that this applies whether the person in question is aware of it or not).

In other words, good works don't cause salvation per se- good works are a sign that someone is already saved. Whether or not someone has pledged themselves to Jesus is irrelevant: if they're doing immoral acts, it's an outward sign of inward decay.

It's an interesting take on the possibility/probability of the deathbed repentence scheme alright... wouldn't have thought of it that way!

edit: bit depressing in other ways though - you're destined to be fine, you're screwed etc etc. Wonder if it's got the explanitory power to stand on its own or if it's best as a complementary idea.

I dont' really think there is a soul... but at any rate, I think that people are who they are because of their experiences. If I had been treated well by my peers growing up then I'd be a different person today.
Experiences are only part of the story. The limits within which your character can develop are written into your genes, but experience/environment determines how you'll develop within those limits.

it's obvious why PETA hates animals:

P-people
E-eating
T-tasty
A-animals

it's obvious why PETA hates animals:

P-people
E-eating
T-tasty
A-animals

Um...I think you might have got the wrong thread.

Experiences are only part of the story. The limits within which your character can develop are written into your genes, but experience/environment determines how you'll develop within those limits.
Genetics doesn't seem to play a huge role in one's personality...

Genetics doesn't seem to play a huge role in one's personality...

Sure they do! Genetic predispositions and modules are the basis for the innate theory of human development. Even in the social constructivist movement, Karmiloff-Smith (google - her big thing was 'beyond modularity', fascinating thing) thinks there are innate, genetically based predispositions that guide and shape early development and attachment - a baby's personality. And don't get me started on epigenetics and temperament... :p

Genetics are an important part of the psychological study of personality, as is biology (see Anderson on 'speed of processing' as the underlying construct that determines intelligence and other individual differences, including personality). It's shaped and reponds to the environment and experience, but it requires a strong genetic basis as well.

Well, not if you walk around believing that nothing you do makes you "worthy." Not if you believe that your actions and your values mean nothing next to a pat on the head from some celestial father figure who flat out tells you that nothing you do will ever be good enough.

If you believe those things, you are experiencing a textbook abusive relationship, in which your abuser asserts his control by removing any means of finding value in yourself outside of his approval. This tactic is very common among abusers, because fostering feelings of isolation and personal unworthiness helps to ensure that the abuse victim will neither complain nor attempt to leave the abusive situation.

You are in the same situation as women whose husbands call them fat, ugly, stupid, and worthless, so that the women will feel powerless and submissive. You are in the same situation as children who are whipped and abused, who are told that the beatings are their own fault because they made Daddy so mad. You are in the same situation as countless abuse victims who are terrorized into submission by threats of even worse abuse to come, and who are quieted by manipulative promises that everything will be okay if (and ONLY if) they shut up and do exactly as Daddy tells them.

The good news is that there are ample resources available to help abuse victims. Indeed, if you simply describe your image of God to a social worker but you refer to God as "my husband" or "my father," they will have plenty of advice for you on how to escape this situation. Of course, as is the case with most abuse victims, none of this will work until you are ready to leave your abuser. But when you are ready to take that step there will be many people waiting to help you.

interesting parallel. I have been in an abusive relationship before, I don't see that my relationship with Christ is anything like that. In my relationship with the abuser, he was selfish and only cared for himself, he hurt me because it made his life easier, he hated me, he didn't want me to have any happiness at all.
In my relationship with Christ, He is selfless, He died for my sins, He loves me, He came to Earth and lived as a human, He felt what I feel, He died for crimes He didn't commit because He loved me so much that He wanted to give me pardon for my wrongs. He did not come to condemn me, He came that I could have a gift of life, a gift that I don't deserve, a relationship with Him, and peace and comfort in abundance.

I think though Bottle that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on yet another issue. ;)

interesting parallel. I have been in an abusive relationship before, I don't see that my relationship with Christ is anything like that. In my relationship with the abuser, he was selfish and only cared for himself, he hurt me because it made his life easier, he hated me, he didn't want me to have any happiness at all.
In my relationship with Christ, He is selfless, He died for my sins, He loves me, He came to Earth and lived as a human, He felt what I feel, He died for crimes He didn't commit because He loved me so much that He wanted to give me pardon for my wrongs. He did not come to condemn me, He came that I could have a gift of life, a gift that I don't deserve, a relationship with Him, and peace and comfort in abundance.

I think though Bottle that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on yet another issue. ;)


I know! How can you not love someone who did all these things for you, I feel eternally in debt to him.

1. belief in christ trumps doing the right or moral thing does it? this a major flaw with the church's teachings imo


This is a misunderstanding

Salvation is based on a belief in what Jesus has done for you. More specicicly it involves three things

1) Accepting you are a sinner
2) Asking God to fogive you of your sins through Jesus's death on the cross
3) Making a sincere effort to live your life as Christ showed us how to

These are all interlinked. For example, if you do 1 and 2 but not 3 then you are not accepting how serious sin is. Its so serious Jesus had to die on the cross in the way he did for you. Beliving in God and Jesus does not "trump" the right thing to do.

bumpozilla,

this finally seems like the only rational religious conversation, we cant see it die!

this is a genuine question . . .not something meant to make anyone blowup in my face. I was wondering if there was any particular reason that anyone here wanted to join any religion . . .and i dont mean parents or nething . . .? as an atheist im just kinda interested in reasons.
ty
woad

bumpozilla,

this finally seems like the only rational religious conversation, we cant see it die!

Ha! This thread will perish and the forum will be destroyed in blood and fire!

MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely Boys
No, it makes me depressed because of how easily the individual is impressed by some over hyped zealot hell bent on taking a generation and turning them into clueless zealots with more bigotry than <insert name of favourite facist dictator>

I swear, we need to have public floggings for ignorant religious types - make them realise the stupidity of their naivity and blind beliefs.


Ah, that's what it was.

I went to a youth group once. After talking to some of the people for a little bit, I promptly ran for it. So much blind faith, and such foolishness, my brain just couldn't take it.

I'd prefer to teach kids to rely on themselves, and their own skills, than on some god, that may or may not exist.


This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.
Sounds like a whole load of people putting the faith in the messanger rather than listening to the message.Why is it that conservite christians seem to qoute from every part of the old and new testamenst without ever comming to some kind of realisation that maybe the whole concept of christianity is simply about trying to put yourself into somebodys shoes and then treating them as you would like to be treated.Works wheather you believe in god, the devil or bob.

This is what Christianity is about, putting your faith into Christ. People who can't put their complete faith into something so magnificant and true are people who can't commit yourself to anything. They are too afraid and untrusting. This is why Chrisitianity is so awsome, you don't have to do works to get your way into heaven, as long as you beleive in Christ then you are Locked In.

So, basicly, you're saying people of different beliefs than yourself are, insecure, scared, untrustworthy & pathetic? Right....

Yet one more reason why to think of christians a bloody morons, thank god (pun intended) for your group there are sane ones too

Faith, I very much love God and beleive in him. Now heres a question.

Why do people who believe in God get labeled as trolls? I think that alot of people don;t know alot about the Christian faith, even though they think they do. There are alot of misconceptions and literal interpretations that are not true.

Sure, maybe, it's just that the more i learn about it, the less it appeals me

I am actually Episcopalian-USA, which right now we are having some issues with the gays which I am not too happy about. Hopefully it will be corrected at the General Convention 2006, what denomination are you?

What kind of issue's?

So, basicly, you're saying people of different beliefs than yourself are, insecure, scared, untrustworthy & pathetic? Right....
if you check earlier in this thred, there was an athiest who claims that people who believe in God are "weak" and without dignity or respect.

so it comes from both directions

I've been looking for a non-flamefest religion thread for a while so I can ask this question (this isn't intended to start an argument, honest, I'm just curious):

As I understand it, Original Sin means that all humans are born guilty and have to accept Christ to absolve this guilt. I just wondered how Christians who believe in evolution support this 'born guilty' principle.

Thanks.:)

And what about the people who never even knew there was this fella called Jesus?
(Yes, there are parts in the world where no bible has ventured before, with or without priests attached to said bible ;) )

that wasn't very nice.

yes.


Sin separates you from God, it's not "how bad you are" according to human standards someone who lies once and someone who murders 5 million people are in the same boat, you sinned and need forgiveness, God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone's sin, not just people who "aren't that bad". Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for all the sins of the world, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness.

Never really understood this, because it strikes me as ilogical, there's no true insentive not to sin here, because you can allways repent & get on with your life.

nobody is worthy of heaven. (no human) Jesus sacrificed himself to give us the gift of life. We deserve death, but are given the gift of life. We can't do anything to be worthy of it, Jesus has mercy on us, and gives us the benifit of grace. He does this because He loves us, not because of anything we could do to deserve it.

Euh... ok, that made sense
Hint: Sarcasm

Well, not if you walk around believing that nothing you do makes you "worthy." Not if you believe that your actions and your values mean nothing next to a pat on the head from some celestial father figure who flat out tells you that nothing you do will ever be good enough.

If you believe those things, you are experiencing a textbook abusive relationship, in which your abuser asserts his control by removing any means of finding value in yourself outside of his approval. This tactic is very common among abusers, because fostering feelings of isolation and personal unworthiness helps to ensure that the abuse victim will neither complain nor attempt to leave the abusive situation.

You are in the same situation as women whose husbands call them fat, ugly, stupid, and worthless, so that the women will feel powerless and submissive. You are in the same situation as children who are whipped and abused, who are told that the beatings are their own fault because they made Daddy so mad. You are in the same situation as countless abuse victims who are terrorized into submission by threats of even worse abuse to come, and who are quieted by manipulative promises that everything will be okay if (and ONLY if) they shut up and do exactly as Daddy tells them.

The good news is that there are ample resources available to help abuse victims. Indeed, if you simply describe your image of God to a social worker but you refer to God as "my husband" or "my father," they will have plenty of advice for you on how to escape this situation. Of course, as is the case with most abuse victims, none of this will work until you are ready to leave your abuser. But when you are ready to take that step there will be many people waiting to help you.

Excellent post! *bows*

I know! How can you not love someone who did all these things for you, I feel eternally in debt to him.

Well, the problem with not believing in his existance is one reason :p

Ha! This thread will perish and the forum will be destroyed in blood and fire!

MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

*Hides his lighter*

Sounds like a whole load of people putting the faith in the messanger rather than listening to the message.Why is it that conservite christians seem to qoute from every part of the old and new testamenst without ever comming to some kind of realisation that maybe the whole concept of christianity is simply about trying to put yourself into somebodys shoes and then treating them as you would like to be treated.Works wheather you believe in god, the devil or bob.

Quoted for truth!

if you check earlier in this thred, there was an athiest who claims that people who believe in God are "weak" and without dignity or respect.

so it comes from both directions

It was something in the likes of "i'm sure it works on the ignorant masses, but not on those with dignity & respect", or something to that effect.

In the context of the discussion i can see why he said it, and you did respond to it in the very next post.

One you accept Jesus Christ into your heart you are locked in, there is nothing that you can do to make him not love you or save you. You are guarenteed a spot in heaven.

Well, that's for some christian denominations (mostly all protestant sects, because of Luther's "faith sola" deal). I know the Catholic church persists in its requirements of good works to be saved. In Catholic school, it was likened to trying to get to a destination. Atheists are walking, people of other religions are biking, protestants are in a car, and catholics are in a plane. Can you get to a place 3000 miles away by walking? Sure, but it's going to be damned hard. Same with atheists trying to get into heaven. And Catholics can crash the plane after all.

From what I've seen, both views have scriptural backings for them. In fact, this downright contradiction has been one of the reasons I eventually rejected belief that the bible was inspired by god. Here's the verses:
Romans 11:6
And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Various excerpts from the Bible ( Primarily The Book of James ):

"Faith without works is dead."

"By their works shall you know them."

"You say you believe that God is one. So do the deamons, and shudder."

"External religious worship that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God is this: to visit and care for the orphans and widows in their affiliction and need, and to keep one's self from being contaminated by [ the evil that is in ] the world."

"If faith does not have works, by itself it is destitute of power, inoperative and dead."

"But someone will say to you, 'You say you have faith, and I have good works. Now, you show me your alleged faith apart from any good works, if you can, and I by my good works will show you my faith."

Hmm, I like these guotes. Can you give me the citations so I can use them later? =)

yeah, it goes both ways too though, you can be "good" and do all the right things, but without a relationship with Christ you are still sunk.

I never understood this reasoning. So is Gandhi not in heaven? He was a Hindu after all, never baptized.

Faith breeds works, and not the other way around. Apple trees make apples, a cherry tree can't make apples, your fruits show who you are, if you are a cherry tree you aren't going to come up with any apples, you may come up with some pretty big cherrys that look like apples on the outside, but when you pick them apart and look inside, you can see that they aren't apples at all.

Tell that to Gandhi. He seemed quite motivated to do good works despite lack of belief in the Christian god. Or tell that to any number of atheists over the world and through the ages who have done good works simply because they cared for their fellow man.

Simply becuase I feel the need to speak against an ideal that seems incredibly stupid from any rational mind.
The very idea that any wise, loving, benevolent god, would allow a person like Hitler, to make a deathbed conversion, and be granted paradise, is the ultimate in hippocracy.
If this is true, why dont we all just go out, and murder anyone we want, beat the shit oout of any woman who dares say "no" to us, and molest a few kids?

After all, Jesus will forgive me, and I can go to heaven.

Actually, this freethinker disagrees with you. My compassion for the human race compells me to wish the very best for everyone, regardless of what they've done. As a matter of fact, I think that its the other way around that's unjust. A loving and benevolent god would take Hitler into heaven, deathbed conversion or no. Of course, a loving and benevolent god would also make us THINK that we had to do good works to get into heaven, to motivate people to do good works.

*Hides his lighter*

Damn it! Foiled again!

*twirls moustache before riding away into the sunset, never to return*

I'd strongly recomend Doaism (I am not a doaist myself) for those of you how are anti-faith because of its negative implications. Doaism encourages a constructive state of non-action and faith only in your own decisions which have been carefully thought out and planned, or in no action at all! (Note: this is not 'not acting' it is activly not acting[yes there's a difference{meditate on it for a starting point in your quest to become the uncarved block}])