NationStates Jolt Archive

God does not exist.

I don't have all the knowledge in the universe, so how could I know? Nothing is absolutely certain outside the realm of logic and mathematics, and nothing can ever be "proven" in the natural world. Our brains could be fed sensory illusions in a sadistic laboratory, and we would never be able to prove otherwise. However, we make conclusions about the universe based on high probabilites ranging from almost 0% to almost 100% (never exactly 0% or exactly 100%). We know with very reasonable certainty that the Sun is a large fiery ball of gas, not an illusion, because of the observations made of it. We can conclude with reasonable certainty that Santa's eight flying reindeer as described in popular myth do not exist, because of our understanding of society's myth and our observations of the physical world. Likewise, I can know with very reasonable certainty that God does not exist.

Let me start with a definition of God. God is a very powerful spiritual supernatural entity who is the obejct of worship in monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam. I would say God is magic. You may not like the word "magic" to describe God since it has the connotations of illusionist art and fantasy fiction, but "magic" without the connotations is defined as, "Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). Besides God, here are some other things that are thought to be supernatural (magic):

ESP
Psychics
Palmreading
Reincarnation
Ghosts
Curses
Charms
Santa Claus
Fairies
Sorcery
Karma
Chi
Spirits

People believe in supernaturalism for various reasons, but largely because of religion. If you are a Christian, then you probably believe in God because it is a part of the religion. You might say that you are not part of a religion, but "religion" is defined as, "a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). If you go to a church, worship God at this church, adhere to a moral system associated with this church, listen to some guy teach about the way God is, and you believe it, then you are part of a religion.

People believe the doctrines of religions because the doctrines promise to fulfill our fantasies. Most of us, largely out of our nature, desire these things that the monotheistic religions promise:

1) Eternal life of happiness
2) Transcendent importance to our lives
3) A powerful trustworthy father figure
4) A perfect guide to living
5) Universal morality and enforced justice
6) Simple answers to tough important questions

And people generally believe what they want to be true. People believe in God NOT because it is a reasonable thing to believe, with some exceptions.

Though supernatural explanations to natural phenomena were always a bad idea generally, there was a time when reasonable people explained things with God because they had no available alternatives. But that time is largely gone. The naturalistic philosophy of science has gone so far in making sense of the universe that there is very little any need for extraordinary explanations such as God. To express this idea, I wrote a poem published here (http://home.freeuk.net/worldling/gpoems/dwindling.html).

Christians and Muslims have told me that they know God exists because there is no other explanation for the grandeur of the laws of physics and the apparent design of life. I could go into detail about how nature does not require "intelligent design," but for the sake of saving time, I'll resort to an argument from authority. Physicists and biologists are far more likely than the rest of the population to disbelieve in the existence of God (source (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm)). Explaining nature with God is called, "the God-of-the-gaps argument," because the explanation of God fills in the gaps in our knowledge.

Many people believe in God because of some sort of spiritual experience. In fact, that is a part of many reasons why people believe in supernaturalism. Along with the stories of Christians, I heard a story from a new-ager who said that he had an out-of-body experience. He floated out of his body, flew out of his house, and explored the landscape. I hear those stories, and most of them seem to be emotional, wishful, delusional, etc. Normally, such stories are the experiences of individuals, and they can't be recorded, tested, or otherwise verified. People will explain their odd experiences with supernaturalism because they want it to be genuine, and they don't realize that their brains are prone to illusions and delusions.

A lot of Christians tell me that they know God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is a trustworthy book. That is part true. I will grant that it has a lot of good history. But it also has what reasonable people can agree to be bad history, bad science, bad morals, bad logic, contradictions, and should not trust it any more than any other religious holy book. You can do your research here (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/).

Let me give you an example. Jesus prophecied very explicitly that he would make his second coming in the lifetime of his listeners, and that time would be the end of the world.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew 16:28

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34

"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30

"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22


This would be a failed prophecy, and so Christian apologsits are forced to explain it. Faults in the Bible can be explained in a large number of ways, the same you can explain faults with the Koran or the Star Trek series. Many Christians, of course, say that you shouldn't take the Bible literally, and others (in the conservative part of the religion) say that "generation" actually means "race," and that the coming of the kingdom of God actually refers to the resurrection. A different explanation was given to the early Christians by their leaders shortly after the generation of Jesus had passed, as seen in 2 Peter 3:3-8.

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Time had to take on a meaningless definition in order for Jesus' prophecy to no longer appear false.

I am not saying that troubles like that in the Bible are good evidence that God does not exist. It is just that the Bible is not proper evidence for God. We ar left with no evidence for God's existence and pretty good evidence against it.

Atheism has almost nothing to offer anyone. I don't have any grandiose promise to make if you abandon your religion. I don't have a moral system that will help you live your life. I don't have simple answers to everything. All I am giving you is what is very probably the truth, and legitimate reasons to believe it.

I only believe in God because I experienced it, I was an atheist until that point. Now I can't imagine not believing in God. Strange how life works. *spiritual but not religious in the least*

[sigh]:( not again...

"Hey Mr. Batou, remember that existence of God thing I was having so much trouble understanding, I think I get it now. Here's my theory; maybe, just maybe, God is similar to the concept of zero in mathematics. That is, a symbol that negates the absence of meaning; a meaning that is necessitated by the delinitation of one system to another. In analog, that's God, in digital, it's zero!" ^_^
-Tachicoma, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

I only believe in God because I experienced it, I was an atheist until that point. Now I can't imagine not believing in God. Strange how life works. *spiritual but not religious in the least*OK, then take the religion test:

1) Do you regularly associate with people who believe as you do about God?
2) Do you attempt to adhere to the will of God?

If you answered "yes" to both those questions, then you are part of a religion by my definition. If you answered "yes," but you don't think you are part of a religion, then you should give me your definition of religion. If you answered "no" to either question, then you are either dishonest or you are one of the few who are unreligious and believe in God.

1) Do you regularly associate with people who believe as you do about God?
NO In fact my friends have very different beliefs


2) Do you attempt to adhere to the will of God?
NO (at least not in the sense that you seem to be implying) My own will is the will of God in my eyes because I am God.

OK, then take the religion test:

1) Do you regularly associate with people who believe as you do about God?
2) Do you attempt to adhere to the will of God?

If you answered "yes" to both those questions, then you are part of a religion by my definition. If you answered "yes," but you don't think you are part of a religion, then you should give me your definition of religion. If you answered "no" to either question, then you are either dishonest or you are one of the few who are unreligious and believe in God.

1. Most of the population believes in a higher power, so what do you mean by associate?
2. YES.

Why's it bad to be religious?

1) Do you regularly associate with people who believe as you do about God?
NO In fact my friends have very different beliefs


2) Do you attempt to adhere to the will of God?
NO My own will is the will of God in my eyes because I am God.
That's great! You are an autotheist. I have met one other person like that, but I think he was joking. Tell me what your experience was.

i'm pretty sure santa claus is real... dead but real... maybe a bit mythohistical but...

1. Most of the population believes in a higher power, so what do you mean by associate?
2. YES.

Why's it bad to be religious?I wasn't saying that it is bad to be religious (though that is what I believe). I was making the point that people believe in supernaturalism because they are religious.

what.....a.....douche.....bag

i'm pretty sure santa claus is real... dead but real... maybe a bit mythohistical but...

Yeah, the Holy See canonised him years ago. So when my sister asked if he was really real, I told her, very honestly, that he was and that his Patronage is: against imprisonment; against robberies; against robbers; apothecaries; Apulia, Italy; bakers; Bari, Italy; barrel makers; boatmen; boot blacks; boys; brewers; brides; captives; children; coopers; dock workers; druggists; Duronia, Italy; fishermen; Fossalto, Italy; Greece; Greek Catholic Church in America; Greek Catholic Unionl grooms; judges; lawsuits lost unjustly; Limerick, Ireland; longshoremen; Lorraine; maidens; mariners; merchants; murderers; Naples, Italy; newlyweds; old maids; parish clerks; paupers; pawnbrokers; perfumeries; perfumers; pharmacists; pilgrims; poor people; Portsmouth, England; prisoners; Russia; sailors; Sassari, Italy; scholars; schoolchildren; shoe shiners; Sicily; spinsters; students; thieves; travellers; University of Paris; unmarried girls; watermen
Representation

i'm pretty sure santa claus is real... dead but real... maybe a bit mythohistical but...The mythical Santa Claus originated in part with St. Nicholas and perhaps in part with Odin and Thor, but I meant to refer to the mythical Santa Claus.

That's great! You are an autotheist. I have met one other person like that, but I think he was joking. Tell me what your experience was.

I dunno what that is, I don't study religion or spiritual philosophy but I am not sure that I am an autotheist if I believe that you too are God as well. I would love to tell you but I'm afraid that verbalizing the experience will not do it any justice. I wouldn't even know where to begin to start the explanation.

I wasn't saying that it is bad to be religious (though that is what I believe). I was making the point that people believe in supernaturalism because they are religious.

You just contradicted yourself:mad: . Again I ask, why is it bad to be religious?

PS: In these cold days of winter, ir you find yourself alone in the wilds, beware the Wendego.

i believe i use to be god, but i'm not anymore... maybe a lapsed autotheist, possibly even an apostate.

I dunno what that is, I don't study religion or spiritual philosophy but I am not sure that I am an autotheist if I believe that you too are God as well. I would love to tell you but I'm afraid that verbalizing the experience will not do it any justice. I wouldn't even know where to begin to start the explanation.An autotheist is someone who believes that his or her own self is God. Since you have now expanded on your belief, you are perhaps either an isotheist (someone who believes that humankind is God) or a pantheist (someone who believes that God is the universe).

You just contradicted yourself:mad: . Again I ask, why is it bad to be religious?I was attempting to tell you that such a question isn't related to the topic of conversation. I don't want to divert it.

I was attempting to tell you that such a question isn't related to the topic of conversation. I don't want to divert it.

It's already in the conversation, and since you placed that huge post, I think it's relevant to the preceedings. But, I can't force you.

Peace be with you! ^_^

Personally i believe that there might be a god but if there is/are one/some he/she/it/they don't care about us so if they do exist i don't care about them. I'm kind of curious though what specifically am I, agnostic or some other one that I haven't heard before?

I'm probably a pantheist then I guess, at least in your eyes because I do believe God is the universe (as that was part of my God experience *that everything is one* - I suppose thats the best way to put it). Although I wouldn't label myself as such because I didn't read somethign and go "oh, that sounds good, I'll accept that belief and follow this structure of thought to the letter as I hold it up as absolute truth.", because I never even heard of the "everything is one" idea until it was "shown" to me.

Actually - I believe that there are as many realities as there are beliefs, if not more... actually, probably more. I see life as somewhat of a mirror of our most deeply held beliefs... errr, damn I wish I just can't explain how though.

It's already in the conversation, and since you placed that huge post, I think it's relevant to the preceedings. But, I can't force you.

Peace be with you! ^_^The topic is the question of whether or not God exists. I explained that the primary cause of belief in God is religion, not reason. I wasn't saying that it is bad to be religious--that is another topic.

Although I wouldn't label myself as such because I didn't read somethign and go "oh, that sounds good, I'll accept that belief and follow this structure of thought to the letter as I hold it up as absolute truth.", because I never even heard of the "everything is one" idea until it was "shown" to me.

thats probably the best idea and the reason why im not sure if I am a true agnostic or not. Ina any case i just use the label to tell people i just met so i don't have to give a whole description of my beliefs

Personally i believe that there might be a god but if there is/are one/some he/she/it/they don't care about us so if they do exist i don't care about them. I'm kind of curious though what specifically am I, agnostic or some other one that I haven't heard before?You are an agnostic who leans toward deism.

thats probably the best idea and the reason why im not sure if I am a true agnostic or not. Ina any case i just use the label to tell people i just met so i don't have to give a whole description of my beliefs

well it's better to just go with what feels best for you, than take anyones word for anything.

I'm an instinctive person and go with what makes me happy because I am the most important person in my life :D

You are an agnostic who leans toward deism.
thanks i keep wondering which label best fits me because im not the type to conform to a label

Personally i believe that there might be a god but if there is/are one/some he/she/it/they don't care about us so if they do exist i don't care about them. I'm kind of curious though what specifically am I, agnostic or some other one that I haven't heard before?You're an atheist. I'm not so sure you're an agnostic though.

If you are, then you deny that it is possible to know whether the divine extsts or not. That said, it's equally possible to be a theist & atheist agnostic.

EDIT: Sorry. Didn't mean to thread-jack.

wow a religious thead with a minimum ammount of flaming, it's kinda nice. At least it is a change of pace. Then again it's only been 2 pages

I'm probably a pantheist then I guess, at least in your eyes because I do believe God is the universe (as that was part of my God experience *that everything is one* - I suppose thats the best way to put it). Although I wouldn't label myself as such because I didn't read somethign and go "oh, that sounds good, I'll accept that belief and follow this structure of thought to the letter as I hold it up as absolute truth.", because I never even heard of the "everything is one" idea until it was "shown" to me.

Actually - I believe that there are as many realities as there are beliefs, if not more... actually, probably more. I see life as somewhat of a mirror of our most deeply held beliefs... errr, damn I wish I just can't explain how though.You seem to be something of a post-modernist, or a truth relativist. There is a bunch more to those philosophies, and perhaps you have something else that goes by another name.

wow a religious thead with a minimum ammount of flaming, it's kinda nice. At least it is a change of pace. Then again it's only been 2 pages


hah yeah - it's early yet

but the religious have it easy on this board compared to the vegetarians and vegans.

although it does seems a bit more tolerant in this "there's no god" thread than usual.

You're an atheist. I'm not so sure you're an agnostic though.

If you are, then you deny that it is possible to know whether the divine extsts or not. That said, it's equally possible to be a theist & atheist agnostic.

EDIT: Sorry. Didn't mean to thread-jack.
i thought that atheism was a firm belief that there is no god on the basis of there is no real evidence to suggest that there is, while agnosticism (sp?) is more of an "i don't know" state

I only believe in God because I experienced it, I was an atheist until that point. Now I can't imagine not believing in God. Strange how life works. *spiritual but not religious in the least*


If I promise not to snap back with a nasty athiest "your an idiot" response, can I ask you how exaxctly, you experienced "it"?

You seem to be something of a post-modernist, or a truth relativist. There is a bunch more to those philosophies, and perhaps you have something else that goes by another name.


Honestly I would rather just be me with my personal beliefs and not have a label because I think labels are as constricting as words are limiting. perhaps someone has had similar beliefs but I could care less about what they or anyone else thinks is the "truth" of life because the truth is in a constant state of change for everyone.

If I promise not to snap back with a nasty athiest "your an idiot" response, can I ask you how exaxctly, you experienced "it"?

I posted later in the thread that it can't really be verbalized. I guess it was sort of an epiphany... like a flood of knowing that made so many beautiful connections. Gah, see? Words are too limiting. I wish I could transmit it to you telepathically.

i thought that atheism was a firm belief that there is no god on the basis of there is no real evidence to suggest that there is, while agnosticism (sp?) is more of an "i don't know" state
Those are essentially the popular definitions of the words, but many atheists have attempted to expand the definition of "atheist" to include agnostics, on the basis that the etymology of the word, "atheist," is "not a believer in God."

i thought that atheism was a firm belief that there is no god on the basis of there is no real evidence to suggest that there is, while agnosticism (sp?) is more of an "i don't know" stateNope. Atheism covers anything from not believing in one or more deities, to denying the existence of divinity.

Being agnostic says something about how you approach a question, not what your personal opinion of the question is. For example, all the religious people I personally know are agnostics. Not one of them thinks it's possible to know whether divinity extsts or not. But all of them firmly believes in whatever it is they believe.

Unless you actually believe in that deity you suspect, you're not a deist. You're an implicit or weak atheist - whereas I'm neither agnostic or a weak atheist. I outright deny that divinity exists. And I'll continue to do so until I hear a compelling argument to the contrary.

Those are essentially the popular definitions of the words, but many atheists have attempted to expand the definition of "atheist" to include agnostics, on the basis that the etymology of the word, "atheist," is "not a believer in God."That's actually the exact opposite of thuth. You're right about the popular - around here at least - use of the words, but not about atheists trying to change the meaning of anything.

Personally I hope the definitions will change, because religious people tend to treat atheism as a philosophy in & of itself. As such, I'm sick & tired of being sidelined with Buddhists & whatnot. I don't be lieve in any sort of magic & never will. And if anything, I'm a humanist.

I posted later in the thread that it can't really be verbalized. I guess it was sort of an epiphany... like a flood of knowing that made so many beautiful connections. Gah, see? Words are too limiting. I wish I could transmit it to you telepathically.


Hmm..seems very vague.
Can you elaborate at all?

Hmm..seems very vague.
Can you elaborate at all?

I can't think of a way to explain it, that I haven't already tried earlier in the thread already. I've tried many times to explain or write about my experience and have always come up short of a way to share it in a way that could be understood. It doesn't really matter though. Just like any story... "You had to be there", or else it's meaningless.

Maybe I went crazy. Who knows, but my main point was that I believe what I believe because of experience and not because I read something that sounded good to me.

Man proves that white is black and is killed by a bus while attempting to cross the road at a zebra crossing... which begs the question why are there so many zebra crossings in the city but you never see zebras using them? Jay walking bastards!

Man proves that white is black and is killed by a bus while attempting to cross the road at a zebra crossing... which begs the question why are there so many zebra crossings in the city but you never see zebras using them? Jay walking bastards!

Is it just me, or is this just a random thing you posted for fun?

Is it just me, or is this just a random thing you posted for fun?

It is a Douglas Adams quote. A man proves that God does not exist by reasoning with God why he does not exist and then God decides that the argument being quite conclusive ceases to exist.

Man feeling rather please with himself for proving that God does not exist then proves black is white.....

I can't think of a way to explain it, that I haven't already tried earlier in the thread already. I've tried many times to explain or write about my experience and have always come up short of a way to share it in a way that could be understood. It doesn't really matter though. Just like any story... "You had to be there", or else it's meaningless.

Maybe I went crazy. Who knows, but my main point was that I believe what I believe because of experience and not because I read something that sounded good to me.
'

Ok. Obviously, you experienced a feeling that moved you.
My next question to you is, how do you know that what you felt, can be attributed to God, and not anything else?

'

Ok. Obviously, you experienced a feeling that moved you.
My next question to you is, how do you know that what you felt, can be attributed to God, and not anything else?

out of curiosity you realise that he's spritual and not religious, right? Also it you have been reading what he wrote, its a feeling, therefore it has as much chance to be nature, or just an emotion that changes perception (like i heard that if you are in love everything appears more beautiful), as it is to be god.

It is a Douglas Adams quote. A man proves that God does not exist by reasoning with God why he does not exist and then God decides that the argument being quite conclusive ceases to exist.

Man feeling rather please with himself for proving that God does not exist then proves black is white.....
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
I love that bit. It was left out of the recent Hitchiker's Guide film, but it was included in an earlier one.

'

Ok. Obviously, you experienced a feeling that moved you.
My next question to you is, how do you know that what you felt, can be attributed to God, and not anything else?


That was just my feeling. Like I said, maybe I went crazy. It's not like I just thought "hey that was wierd, only god could have done that"... it was like an overwhelming knowing... that is the best way to explain it. I am a logical person (always interested in science and got top grades in it... I am programmer by trade as well), despite what this may sound like. It may sound very illogical to you and that is fine with me. I am not trying to prove that I had a genuine experience with God. I will not argue with about wether or not this was attributed to a chemical imbalance in the brain. If that or anything else, is what you want to believe, then you go for it... I will not dispute it, nor will I hold any ill feelings because you think I'm a loony or that I jumped to conclusions and never thought the reasons for the experience through... I have, but this semed beyond my wildest imagination... and I have a pretty wild imagination.

That was just my feeling. Like I said, maybe I went crazy. It's not like I just thought "hey that was wierd, only god could have done that"... it was like an overwhelming knowing... that is the best way to explain it. I am a logical person (always interested in science and got top grades in it... I am programmer by trade as well), despite what this may sound like. It may sound very illogical to you and that is fine with me. I am not trying to prove that I had a genuine experience with God. I will not argue with about wether or not this was attributed to a chemical imbalance in the brain. If that or anything else, is what you want to believe, then you go for it... I will not dispute it, nor will I hold any ill feelings because you think I'm a loony or that I jumped to conclusions and never thought the reasons for the experience through... I have, but this semed beyond my wildest imagination... and I have a pretty wild imagination.

Im not judging you.
Im also not going to call you crazy, or insult your beliefs in this thread.
Im only asking how you interpereted what you felt, into what you now believe.

Also, if you choose to tell me, I am also not going. to try and convince you of how you "obviously didnt understand what you where feeling" blah, blah....

Im asking out of curiosity, and nothing else.

The whole question of whether or not God exists all hangs up on the definition.. there are too many ways to define one. Scope is another error in the search for God, and the complete lack of any evidence on either side makes it impossible for either side to proove any point.

The whole arguement For/Against God's existence is a pointless one, there is no way to gather any evidence, making any scientific study impossible. The definition of God is at it's core entirely unable to be tested. And thus the whole arguement is fallacious. :fluffle:

Thaller']The whole question of whether or not God exists all hangs up on the definition.. there are too many ways to define one. Scope is another error in the search for God, and the complete lack of any evidence on either side makes it impossible for either side to proove any point.

The whole arguement For/Against God's existence is a pointless one, there is no way to gather any evidence, making any scientific study impossible. The definition of God is at it's core entirely unable to be tested. And thus the whole arguement is fallacious. :fluffle:I gave a specific definition of God at the beginning of the OP, and I am using that defiinition in my argument. I assert that we can make a study about this God since it relates so closely (I argue that it originates) with the observable religions of society.

I gave a specific definition of God at the beginning of the OP, and I am using that defiinition in my argument. I assert that we can make a study about this God since it relates so closely (I argue that it originates) with the observable religions of society.

Well one of your definitions was right on "an object of Worship" which is entirely testable. Supernatural beings or phenommena are hard to test however, because they don't need to follow the regular guidelines of what is known, otherwise they'd be known as 'natural' But then comes the Scope thing, which is necessary to the definition. You talk about God being a Being, where as it has been said that he is all things, the Alpha and Omega. Seperating him from Being, in that he is all things. When it comes to an omnipresent being, you cannot test him, because it would be the same as testing the laws of physics - If you interpret the Religion in that way.

The exisence of a God is untestable for that reason.

Thaller']Well one of your definitions was right on "an object of Worship" which is entirely testable. Supernatural beings or phenommena are hard to test however, because they don't need to follow the regular guidelines of what is known, otherwise they'd be known as 'natural' But then comes the Scope thing, which is necessary to the definition. You talk about God being a Being, where as it has been said that he is all things, the Alpha and Omega. Seperating him from Being, in that he is all things. When it comes to an omnipresent being, you cannot test him, because it would be the same as testing the laws of physics - If you interpret the Religion in that way.

The exisence of a God is untestable for that reason.That would only mean that the theists lack evidence on their side, but the atheists still have cards to play. If God (as theists most often define it) can be shown to have the characteristics of artificial religious doctrine, myth, and wishful creation of human imagination, then that is evidence on the side of atheism. Furthermore, if it is shown that a completely naturalistic model of the universe is elegantly fitting and sensible, that is more evidence on the side of atheists.

Theoretically it is possible to prove or disprove god if there is a limit to science, however not at this point. Scince science cant "look ahead" and see whats going to be truly available as technology advances all that we can say is that we have not found any evidence of god and that alot of stuff that religious leaders have said throught history is BS. To get back to my point finding god is like looking for bigfoot in a forest where the forest is science and technology. If it is possible to explore the enitre forest (and i don't really believe it is) you can only be sure where bigfoot isn't by what you have explored (and i guess leaving sensors in your wake so you don't have to backtrack). I know that there are probably alot of holes in my analogy (but Im too tired right no to see and therefore adress them) but language is imperfect. Oh, and for my personal belief bigfoot probably is real while god(s) are not.

That would only mean that the theists lack evidence on their side, but the atheists still have cards to play. If God (as theists most often define it) can be shown to have the characteristics of artificial religious doctrine, myth, and wishful creation of human imagination, then that is evidence on the side of atheism. Furthermore, if it is shown that a completely naturalistic model of the universe is elegantly fitting and sensible, that is more evidence on the side of atheists.

I don't know, man, It seems to me that the definition of god is entirely unable to be tested, and without testing it, there is no scientific proof. therefor an atheistic argument without evidence would be entirely faith-based.

Anyways, you put up some good points, and I appreciate it, you have obviously thought it out. I didn't appreciate the constant replications of the same quote of the new testament - You know that half the new :fluffle: testament is simply the same story told by a bunch of different guys, they don't work as seperate quotes.

Well I must go to sleep soon, it's entirely unreasonable for me to be up right now, it's around 4:20am CST. Good evenin'

Atheism has almost nothing to offer anyone. I don't have any grandiose promise to make if you abandon your religion. I don't have a moral system that will help you live your life. I don't have simple answers to everything. All I am giving you is what is very probably the truth, and legitimate reasons to believe it.

Actually, atheism does offer a lot. Atheism offers people freedom from the eternal consequences of their actions. It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals. It offers an excuse for selfishness and it allows people to focus on this world rather than the next.

Actually, atheism does offer a lot. Atheism offers people freedom from the eternal consequences of their actions. It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals. It offers an excuse for selfishness and it allows people to focus on this world rather than the next.


Spoken like a christian with a dim view of any other religions or belief systems not your own.

Most athiests I know, myself included, dont need a god to have a sense of morality. We also dont need some inaccurate old mistranslated text to have a sense of generosity. It also means when we do something nice for people, we do it out of genuine altruism, and not becuase we fear reprocussions from "God" if we dont.

and if focusing on the world around you, and trying to make it a better place NOW, instead of waiting for a more than likely imaginary old man in the sky to wave his magic wand and "make it all better", is a bad thing....I guess Im choosing bad.

Actually, atheism does offer a lot. Atheism offers people freedom from the eternal consequences of their actions. It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals. It offers an excuse for selfishness and it allows people to focus on this world rather than the next.Was someone looking for an explanation for why religion is bad?

If so, that was it.

Hmmmmm?

Spoken like a christian with a dim view of any other religions or belief systems not your own.

Most athiests I know, myself included, dont need a god to have a sense of morality. We also dont need some inaccurate old mistranslated text to have a sense of generosity. It also means when we do something nice for people, we do it out of genuine altruism, and not becuase we fear reprocussions from "God" if we dont.

and if focusing on the world around you, and trying to make it a better place NOW, instead of waiting for a more than likely imaginary old man in the sky to wave his magic wand and "make it all better", is a bad thing....I guess Im choosing bad.

Spoken like a atheist who lacks reading comprehension abilities. Read my post again, you will notice I said It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals.

How is it possible to come to the conclusion that I believe atheists lack a sense of morality when I specifically and clearly stated they do have one?

Spoken like a atheist who lacks reading comprehension abilities. Read my post again, you will notice I said

How is it possible to come to the conclusion that I believe atheists lack a sense of morality when I specifically and clearly stated they do have one?


Did you, or did you not imply that athiesim allows "an exscuse for selfishness"?

Did you, or did you not imply that athiesim allows "an exscuse for selfishness"?

I did. But you were supposed to read it in context. Part of reading is knowing the context in which something is being said. You cant just take one sentence out and ignore the rest of what was said. Again, you have spoken like an atheist with no reading comprehension abilities.

Atheism does provide an excuse for selfishness. Not every atheist will choose to use it, but the excuse is there. Christians do not have that excuse because their religion commands that they think of others.

I did. But you were supposed to read it in context. Part of reading is knowing the context in which something is being said. You cant just take one sentence out and ignore the rest of what was said. Again, you have spoken like an atheist with no reading comprehension abilities.

Atheism does provide an excuse for selfishness. Not every atheist will choose to use it, but the excuse is there. Christians do not have that excuse because their religion commands that they think of others.

Since when does that stop people who believe? I am sorry but there are examples where people do not care about the feelings of others and then claim they are acting to help these people. Religious wars - since when does that actually help the people who are attacked!

Well I hope you like fire...

Why do people who don't believe in god always try to tell religious people their opinions on why god doesn't exist? Why can't fundies just keep their opinions to themselves and quit trying to spread their religion around?

Between hardcore atheists who try to get everyone to stop believing in whatever faith they believe in, to religious extremists who believe you are pure evil unless you go to their church, it's all bullshit. I just don't see why there are these stupid arguments.

If you go to church, and you are a Christian, good for you. You can believe in whatever you want, but do not force your beliefs down others throats. This also goes for other religions to. Islam has had a history of shoving their beliefs down others throats as well.

Now, for you atheists who just love "prooving" that god doesn't exist. Nobody cares. A person strong in faith will not care and trust me, if there is an all powerful superbeing such as god, well I'm sure he doesn't give a damn either about your beliefs.

Personally I'm more of an atheist than anything else. Do I tell Christians off and say they are stupid for believing in a god that doesn't exist? Of course not. Let people believe whatever they want.

I've only been an atheist for around a month or two now. However I was a devout Christian for most of my life. Did it affect my decisions or the way I did things throughout life? Not really. Since I have a concience and a moral code, I made my own decisions without faith in a god keeping me in line.

The Bible is inperfect as are humans. Everyone knows that. I'm tired of atheists trying to proove that God doesn't exist because they can't. I'm also tired of fundies and extremists either trying to shove their beliefs down your throat or trying to proove that God does exist, because they can't.

Sorry for my rant. Seriousness sucks.

I believe in the existence of god. I'm deist (you'll notice I don't capitalize any theistic terms, since the words themselves hold no purpose and I find them to be unimportant and defined only in context) meaning I believe in god as a friend and not as a worshipper.

I think the bible is crap, and I think the church(s) is/are corrupt. God has nothing to do with these things, they are manmade and always have been.

God does not exist.
All religious texts, including the Bible, were written by humans. Whether God does or does not exist is a matter of faith, not reason.

what.....a.....douche.....bag

What an excellent point you made there, where can i sign up to learn how to argue like you?

You just contradicted yourself:mad: . Again I ask, why is it bad to be religious?

PS: In these cold days of winter, ir you find yourself alone in the wilds, beware the Wendego.

Religion is only bad (or Evil!) when it start impacting the lives of other- & nonbelievers (aka fundamentalism, Jehova"s witnesses)

Actually, atheism does offer a lot. Atheism offers people freedom from the eternal consequences of their actions. It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals. It offers an excuse for selfishness and it allows people to focus on this world rather than the next.

Nobody can escape the consequences of their actions. That's just how life works.

Creating morals? Everyone does that anyway. Religions just have them prepackaged to keep people from having too many sleepless nights. It doesn't matter where morals come from so much. Wether you create them out of thin air or read them out of a book, once you adopt them, then they are yours. You can't follow someone else's morals because you are not them.

Excuse for selfishness? Does it matter? You may show up to work late with an excuse, but you are still late and are still going to have to deal with the consequences of being late.

As for focusing on this world, that would be the point of any religion. I would say the person that is more worried about getting into heaven than taking care of the business of everyday life isn't going to make it to heaven.

Oh, no. Not another anti-God thread. You don't believe in God, we get it, but no need to post one of these threads every day. I'm pretty sick of it. It's strange that people with a strong belief and assertion that there is no God keep posting here. Like something is standing on the sidelines pushing them to do so. You say there is no God. What about Satan? From my view point he's the one that got you to start this thread in the first place. Of course, he'll make you think that it was your own initiative and incredible intelligence that made you devise your opening comment. Self-pride is one of his many traits...

Actually, atheism does offer a lot. Atheism offers people freedom from the eternal consequences of their actions. It also offers them the ability to create their own system of morals. It offers an excuse for selfishness and it allows people to focus on this world rather than the next.

I'm an atheist, the only "christian rule" i try to follow is the golden rule (don't do to other what you wouldn't want done to you) the rest of my morals are based on reason & logic.
I'm far from selfish, i don't pursue property, power nor money, and i will help my fellow man to the extent of my possibilities.

This also implies i'm prochoice & pro gay marriage while i myself am not gay.

Oh, no. Not another anti-God thread. You don't believe in God, we get it, but no need to post one of these threads every day. I'm pretty sick of it. It's strange that people with a strong belief and assertion that there is no God keep posting here. Like something is standing on the sidelines pushing them to do so. You say there is no God. What about Satan? From my view point he's the one that got you to start this thread in the first place. Of course, he'll make you think that it was your own initiative and incredible intelligence that made you devise your opening comment. Self-pride is one of his many traits...

Did you just imply atheists work for satan? *scratches his head*
You do know that having these conversations in itself isn't what constitutes as an attack on faith, religion or god right?
This is nothing more then people presenting their opinions and discussing them with fellow people, if you don't like the argument, don't get involved.
I don't get involved in threads about eg soccer neighter, because i care nothing about it.

You hate these threads? Well, don't read'm then :p

God does not exist.

I don't have all the knowledge in the universe, so how could I know? Nothing is absolutely certain outside the realm of logic and mathematics, and nothing can ever be "proven" in the natural world. Our brains could be fed sensory illusions in a sadistic laboratory, and we would never be able to prove otherwise. However, we make conclusions about the universe based on high probabilites ranging from almost 0% to almost 100% (never exactly 0% or exactly 100%). We know with very reasonable certainty that the Sun is a large fiery ball of gas, not an illusion, because of the observations made of it. We can conclude with reasonable certainty that Santa's eight flying reindeer as described in popular myth do not exist, because of our understanding of society's myth and our observations of the physical world. Likewise, I can know with very reasonable certainty that God does not exist.

Let me start with a definition of God. God is a very powerful spiritual supernatural entity who is the obejct of worship in monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam. I would say God is magic. You may not like the word "magic" to describe God since it has the connotations of illusionist art and fantasy fiction, but "magic" without the connotations is defined as, "Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). Besides God, here are some other things that are thought to be supernatural (magic):

ESP
Psychics
Palmreading
Reincarnation
Ghosts
Curses
Charms
Santa Claus
Fairies
Sorcery
Karma
Chi
Spirits

People believe in supernaturalism for various reasons, but largely because of religion. If you are a Christian, then you probably believe in God because it is a part of the religion. You might say that you are not part of a religion, but "religion" is defined as, "a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship" (American Heritage Dictionary of English). If you go to a church, worship God at this church, adhere to a moral system associated with this church, listen to some guy teach about the way God is, and you believe it, then you are part of a religion.

People believe the doctrines of religions because the doctrines promise to fulfill our fantasies. Most of us, largely out of our nature, desire these things that the monotheistic religions promise:

1) Eternal life of happiness
2) Transcendent importance to our lives
3) A powerful trustworthy father figure
4) A perfect guide to living
5) Universal morality and enforced justice
6) Simple answers to tough important questions

And people generally believe what they want to be true. People believe in God NOT because it is a reasonable thing to believe, with some exceptions.

Though supernatural explanations to natural phenomena were always a bad idea generally, there was a time when reasonable people explained things with God because they had no available alternatives. But that time is largely gone. The naturalistic philosophy of science has gone so far in making sense of the universe that there is very little any need for extraordinary explanations such as God. To express this idea, I wrote a poem published here (http://home.freeuk.net/worldling/gpoems/dwindling.html).

Christians and Muslims have told me that they know God exists because there is no other explanation for the grandeur of the laws of physics and the apparent design of life. I could go into detail about how nature does not require "intelligent design," but for the sake of saving time, I'll resort to an argument from authority. Physicists and biologists are far more likely than the rest of the population to disbelieve in the existence of God (source (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm)). Explaining nature with God is called, "the God-of-the-gaps argument," because the explanation of God fills in the gaps in our knowledge.

Many people believe in God because of some sort of spiritual experience. In fact, that is a part of many reasons why people believe in supernaturalism. Along with the stories of Christians, I heard a story from a new-ager who said that he had an out-of-body experience. He floated out of his body, flew out of his house, and explored the landscape. I hear those stories, and most of them seem to be emotional, wishful, delusional, etc. Normally, such stories are the experiences of individuals, and they can't be recorded, tested, or otherwise verified. People will explain their odd experiences with supernaturalism because they want it to be genuine, and they don't realize that their brains are prone to illusions and delusions.

A lot of Christians tell me that they know God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is a trustworthy book. That is part true. I will grant that it has a lot of good history. But it also has what reasonable people can agree to be bad history, bad science, bad morals, bad logic, contradictions, and should not trust it any more than any other religious holy book. You can do your research here (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/).

Let me give you an example. Jesus prophecied very explicitly that he would make his second coming in the lifetime of his listeners, and that time would be the end of the world.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew 16:28

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34

"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30

"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22


This would be a failed prophecy, and so Christian apologsits are forced to explain it. Faults in the Bible can be explained in a large number of ways, the same you can explain faults with the Koran or the Star Trek series. Many Christians, of course, say that you shouldn't take the Bible literally, and others (in the conservative part of the religion) say that "generation" actually means "race," and that the coming of the kingdom of God actually refers to the resurrection. A different explanation was given to the early Christians by their leaders shortly after the generation of Jesus had passed, as seen in 2 Peter 3:3-8.

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Time had to take on a meaningless definition in order for Jesus' prophecy to no longer appear false.

I am not saying that troubles like that in the Bible are good evidence that God does not exist. It is just that the Bible is not proper evidence for God. We ar left with no evidence for God's existence and pretty good evidence against it.

Atheism has almost nothing to offer anyone. I don't have any grandiose promise to make if you abandon your religion. I don't have a moral system that will help you live your life. I don't have simple answers to everything. All I am giving you is what is very probably the truth, and legitimate reasons to believe it.

You need to get out more, those were the most stupidist arguments ive ever seen, i cant believe how much time you wasted.

Oh, no. Not another anti-God thread. You don't believe in God, we get it, but no need to post one of these threads every day. I'm pretty sick of it. It's strange that people with a strong belief and assertion that there is no God keep posting here. Like something is standing on the sidelines pushing them to do so. You say there is no God. What about Satan? From my view point he's the one that got you to start this thread in the first place. Of course, he'll make you think that it was your own initiative and incredible intelligence that made you devise your opening comment. Self-pride is one of his many traits...

There's no such thing as satan. That's a very medieval ideal, to just blame things on satan.

Here, I'll kill satan for you, and prove there can't possibly be one.


What can defy god? NOTHING. End of story, thank you for playing. If god didn't want satan to exist, he'd be gone. Satan trying to overthrow god is like Sephiroth trying to kill SquareEnix. God is the developer; he decides the bottom line, and nothing in any world, this or the next, can touch him.

Now, there's the chance satan -DOES- exist, because god allows it. In which case, it's not satan that's to blame for all those things, it's god himself, because it is his will that satan do those things, because he allows it.


It's fun debating about an allpowerful, all-omnipotent, all-knowing being and whether or not he really has control over things. Shit's being taken care of, I assure you. Everything that's happened or will happen has been according to the dice that he's rolled. Notice I said "dice", not "plan"; it's probably mostly luck and somewhat controlled. Makes for good entertainment if he doesn't interfere too often.

You need to get out more, those were the most stupidist arguments ive ever seen, i cant believe how much time you wasted.

I beg to differ. He did quite good considering he tried to prove that god doesn´t exist.
But everyone should get some fresh air once in a while, true.

I beg to differ. He did quite good considering he tried to prove that god doesn´t exist.
But everyone should get some fresh air once in a while, true.

Yeah I've seen much stupider arguments. His wasn't too bad, though he was trying to do the impossible. There's always a loophole around logic through faith to which people can believe in god.

Yeah I've seen much stupider arguments. His wasn't too bad, though he was trying to do the impossible. There's always a loophole around logic through faith to which people can believe in god.

Yea, how exactly could you prove that something all-powerfull doesn´t exist.
If he/she/it is that good he/she/it could hide from anyone :p .

Be on the safe side, be agnostic! :rolleyes:

These anti-religion posts are cliched and overrated, so just stop it, ok?

By the way, I'm an atheist:p

Not every religion can be right, but all of them can most certainly be wrong.

Im not judging you.
Im also not going to call you crazy, or insult your beliefs in this thread.
Im only asking how you interpereted what you felt, into what you now believe.

Also, if you choose to tell me, I am also not going. to try and convince you of how you "obviously didnt understand what you where feeling" blah, blah....

Im asking out of curiosity, and nothing else.


But I did tell you. Thats the problem, it's something that I find hard to convey. Sorry for being defensive, but I always expect the worse from others online.

Let me give you an example. Jesus prophecied very explicitly that he would make his second coming in the lifetime of his listeners, and that time would be the end of the world.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew 16:28

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27

Death means Hell and eternal suffering, as opposed to eternal life

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34
Same as above

"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64
And how do you interpret this as Jesus saying it will happen in their lifetime?

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30

"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32
Same as above

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22
And you read this as what?

We ar left with no evidence for God's existence and pretty good evidence against it.

I see that you are arguing against reasons many give for God's existence, but I don't think you presented any actual evidence to the contrary. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

If God is a supernatural being, it is unlikely there will be empirical evidence to either support or deny His existence. It's a question for each person's opinion, conscience, or faith.

What can defy god? NOTHING. End of story, thank you for playing. If god didn't want satan to exist, he'd be gone. Satan trying to overthrow god is like Sephiroth trying to kill SquareEnix.

Final Fantasy VII for the win!

Death means Hell and eternal suffering, as opposed to eternal life


Same as above


And how do you interpret this as Jesus saying it will happen in their lifetime?


Same as above


And you read this as what?
[/INDENT]
"Death" could be either the very plain meaning of death (your brain stops working), or it could mean going to hell, or it could mean whatever the hell you want it to mean. But I think it is best to take the simplest explanation for what Jesus meant. He said, "this generation will not pass away" and "those standing here will not taste death." The meaning seems plain to me. And reflect on the fact that early Christians had to make time meaningless in order for Jesus' prophecy to appear legitimate (2 Pet 3:3-8). In light of that, how is Jesus any different from any other lying doomsday cult leader?

I see that you are arguing against reasons many give for God's existence, but I don't think you presented any actual evidence to the contrary. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

If God is a supernatural being, it is unlikely there will be empirical evidence to either support or deny His existence. It's a question for each person's opinion, conscience, or faith.I did present evidence that God does not exist. That is what the first part of the OP was about. I explained that God closely resembles a fictional character manaufactured by wishful thinking, and a naturalistic way of looking at the universe is much more reasonable.

god bisness...
man oh man tisk tisk tisk.....
this is goning to take some tinking on your part but imagine this


3

got it good your half way there now imagine this


+

ok youre done nothing else

OK, then take the religion test:

1) Do you regularly associate with people who believe as you do about God?
2) Do you attempt to adhere to the will of God?

If you answered "yes" to both those questions, then you are part of a religion by my definition. If you answered "yes," but you don't think you are part of a religion, then you should give me your definition of religion. If you answered "no" to either question, then you are either dishonest or you are one of the few who are unreligious and believe in God.
Haha. :) Being also "spiritual" but not a part of an organized religion, I'd like to respond.

1) There is no one who believes exactly as I do about god.
2) God's Will is creation, it goes on about me everyday. I adhere to it only insofar as I am a part of it.

Haha. :) Being also "spiritual" but not a part of an organized religion, I'd like to respond.

1) There is no one who believes exactly as I do about god.
2) God's Will is creation, it goes on about me everyday. I adhere to it only insofar as I am a part of it.Then you are not religious.

Then you are not religious.
Aye. :) Not in the 'organized religion' sense.

But I think it is best to take the simplest explanation for what Jesus meant. ... The meaning seems plain to me. ... In light of that, how is Jesus any different from any other lying doomsday cult leader?
Don't you think it is a bit arrogant and tricky to first insist that Christian scripture means what you think best instead of what what 2000 years of virtuous and intelligent members of the Christian community have come to understand, and then ridicule us because your interpretation of our teachings leads to absurd conclusions?

Don't you think it is a bit arrogant and tricky to first insist that Christian scripture means what you think best instead of what what 2000 years of virtuous and intelligent members of the Christian community have come to understand, and then ridicule us because your interpretation of our teachings leads to absurd conclusions?I have only the very plainest interpretation of the Bible. It is not arrogant to say that my interpretations are superior to theirs, because

1) My interpretations are more reasonable.
2) Their interpretations are motivated by an effort to make the Scriptures seem divinely inspired.
3) They have many interpretations of single passages that seldomly agree with each other.

In the case of the false prophecy of Jesus, it doesn't get any plainer than how it is. I can't even imagine how Jesus could lie any more plainly than what is written in the Gospels about the end of the world.