NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm glad to see that the Swedes are outraged over this sort of thing. I am personally outraged that Muslim youth immigrants seem to think that they are free to rape any non-Muslim woman they come across (in Sweden, they are four times more likely to be the perpetrator of rape).

I am convinced that they rape because they were taught that it was OK to do so. By their religion.

http://jimball.com.au/features/Political%20%20uproar%20over%20mufti%27s%20rmearks%20-The%20Copenhagen%20Post.htm

An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen, Shahid Mehdi, has sparked political outcry from the left-wing Unity List and right-wing Danish People's Party, after stating in a televised interview that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape." Unity List equality spokesman Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil has threatened to file suit for defamation against the mufti on behalf of herself and all the women of Denmark. The Danish People's Party has urged Justice Minister Lene Espersen and Integration Minister Bertel Haarder to stop the mufti's religious activities in Copenhagen.

Is is possible that this sort of attitude - that it's ok to rape non-Muslim women, or they are "asking for it" is a general attitude amongst Muslim immigrants?

From a young Muslim in Rissne - who was interviewed on the subject of rape:

”det är inte lika fel att våldta en svensk tjej som att våldta en arabisk tjej, säger Hamid. Den svenska tjejen får ju massor av hjälp efteråt, och hon har nog redan knullat. Men arabtjejen får problem med sin familj. För henne är det en stor skam att bli våldtagen. Det är viktigt att hon har kvar oskulden när hon gifter sig. [...] Det var ingen tillfällighet att det var en svenska som skändades i Rissne – det framgår tydligt av samtalet med Ali, Hamid, Abdallah och Richard. Alla fyra ser i någon mening ner på svenska flickor och hävdar att denna inställning är vanlig bland unga män med föräldrar som har invandrat till Sverige. [...] Det är alldeles för lätt att få en svensk hora… tjej, menar jag, säger Hamid och ler generat över sitt ordval. [...] Många invandrarkillar är ju med svenska tjejer när de är tonåringar. Men sen när de ska gifta sig tar de en riktig kvinna från sin egen kultur som inte har varit med någon kille. Så ska jag göra. Jag har inte så mycket respekt för svenska tjejer. Man kan säga att de blir sönderknullade.”

“It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fucked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.” It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne – this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get fucked to pieces.”

What do you expect from a religion that encourages wife beating, among other atrocities?

Excuse me, but context?

over 25% of UK folk think (well, admit to thinking - there could easily be many more) that women who dress provocatively are 'asking for rape'. I'm sure there are a similar number of prats in most countries and most religions.

This rapist's religion is barely a tangent to the main point, which is that too many folk think that rape victims are to blame for being raped by the way they dress. The west has come up with this shameful conclusion, and so has the east - it's got little to do with religion, more with patriarchy and feminism.

Love that mufti in * (where exactly?)

I mean I have no doubt that the Swedes are outraged too...

Yayyy, SWEDEN! SIC 'em! :D

Yayyy, SWEDEN! SIC 'em! :D

I agree. Lets start a religion in which it's ok to rape muslim men if the don't wear green hats with pink feathers in them, and then send lots of the people we brainwash into believing this nonsense in a muslim country. That'll learn them.

So... An article from Denmark about a danish mufti, and a undated statement from a swedish muslim - Yep, all muslims everywhere are obviously evil rapists. :rolleyes:

What do you expect from a religion that encourages wife beating, among other atrocities?

"Love, honour and OBEY BITCH! OBEY!" *smack*

I'm glad to see that the Swedes are outraged over this sort of thing. I am personally outraged that Muslim youth immigrants seem to think that they are free to rape any non-Muslim woman they come across (in Sweden, they are four times more likely to be the perpetrator of rape).

I am convinced that they rape because they were taught that it was OK to do so. By their religion.


Oh! but.. Oh! Kimchi! This cannot be. Islam is the religion of peace. Anyone who would do this is not a "real" muslim, so it is unfair of you to blame these disenfranchised youth, for the failings of the evil western governments that cause this behaivor! Pehaps if you western dogs were more sensitive to muslim culture these things would not happen! (proper response as per the "moonbat times")

Fucking barbarians like that should be deported back to the desert wastelands that they originally came from. Rapists of whatever religion should be forced to submit to involuntary sex change surgery without anesthetic and be forced to work as cheap prostitutes until they die of AIDS.

Oh! but.. Oh! Kimchi! This cannot be. Islam is the religion of peace. Anyone who would do this is not a "real" muslim, so it is unfair of you to blame these disenfranchised youth, for the failings of the evil western governments that cause this behaivor! Pehaps if you western dogs were more sensitive to muslim culture these things would not happen! (proper response as per the "moonbat times")

It is unfair to shift responsibility for a rape, which lies with the individual rapist, to the specific culture to which he belongs.

Rape exists in 'most all cultures, but not in all men in those cultures. The failing is in the individual. Punish them accordingly.

Personal responsibility, personal guilt, personal punishment.

While not excusing the statements made by those Muslims, I'd just like to point out that that attitude is shared by some Christians (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/11/rape-myth.html) here in the US--not about headscarves precisely, but about dressing scantily or in the case I cited above, simply being a female.

By the way, the writer of the piece I linked to above is a columnist for World Net daily, so while he's not exactly mainstream, he's not just some internet yahoo screeching to himself either.

Elgesh']It is unfair to shift responsibility for a rape, which lies with the individual rapist, to the specific culture to which he belongs.

Rape exists in 'most all cultures, but not in all men in those cultures. The failing is in the individual. Punish them accordingly.

Personal responsibility, personal guilt, personal punishment.
In some cultures it seems to be accepted. Apparently, considering the quotes in the OP, it's accepted in certain Islamic cultures. Those particular Islamic cultures need to be subjugated and forced into modern ways of thinking by whatever means are most efficient.

"Love, honour and OBEY BITCH! OBEY!" *smack*

"I only beat her when we make love or when she burns the chicken."-Ali Tarbash

In some cultures it seems to be accepted. Apparently, considering the quotes in the OP, it's accepted in certain Islamic cultures. Those particular Islamic cultures need to be subjugated and forced into modern ways of thinking by whatever means are most efficient.

I couldn't agree more. In those 'certain Islamic cultures', in 'those particular Islamic cultures', it's just as you say. Trick is differentiating between official teachings and specific teachings - from my limited understanding, interpretation and teaching of the tenets of islam can vary from mosque to mosque, let alone culture to culture - is that right?

While not excusing the statements made by those Muslims, I'd just like to point out that that attitude is shared by some Christians (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/11/rape-myth.html) here in the US--not about headscarves precisely, but about dressing scantily or in the case I cited above, simply being a female.

By the way, the writer of the piece I linked to above is a columnist for World Net daily, so while he's not exactly mainstream, he's not just some internet yahoo screeching to himself either.
There's a difference there. The "christian" article you quoted is saying that women who put themselves in danger of rape should bear some of the responsibility. I dont' agree that they share responsibility, but it's a much less horrid statement than those quoted in the OP.

The statements quoted in the OP basically excuse rape of another culture's women as a weapon against that culture. They imply muslim supremacy. They're like a Klansman saying that "It's ok to rape a ****** woman because she's not pure like a white woman". Well, I wouldn't stand for it. If I knew someone who believed that about the women in my culture I might well be in prison for murdering him.

Some people claim that Bush is engaged in a war against Islam. The statements above support the idea that some forms of Islam are engaged in a war against civilization. Those forms of Islam must be wiped out by whatever means are most efficient. War, conquest, and cultural imperialism are effective tools against it. So are vigorous and merciless prosecution, punishment, and deportation.

Copenhagen hasn't seen any real men since Admiral Nelson visited. Just thought I'd add that.

Elgesh']I couldn't agree more. In those 'certain Islamic cultures', in 'those particular Islamic cultures', it's just as you say. Trick is differentiating between official teachings and specific teachings - from my limited understanding, interpretation and teaching of the tenets of islam can vary from mosque to mosque, let alone culture to culture - is that right?
Yeah, that's why we need to listen in on what's being taught in Mosques and Madrassas. That's why we need to put spies in Muslim communities. So when we exterminate the scum we can make sure the good folks don't get swept up in the raids too.

as long as they come to understand that sweden (and denmark) have laws against rape that will be enforced no matter how slutty a woman dresses (how DARE she go out of the house without a scarf!) who cares what they think? when they and their rapist friends have spent a few years in prison they may come to change their minds. or at least to acknowlege that while the women are asking for it, a bit of forced pussy isnt worth the time in prison.

Yeah, that's why we need to listen in on what's being taught in Mosques and Madrassas. That's why we need to put spies in Muslim communities. So when we exterminate the scum we can make sure the good folks don't get swept up in the raids too.

yawn.

There's a difference there. The "christian" article you quoted is saying that women who put themselves in danger of rape should bear some of the responsibility. I dont' agree that they share responsibility, but it's a much less horrid statement than those quoted in the OP.

The statements quoted in the OP basically excuse rape of another culture's women as a weapon against that culture. They imply muslim supremacy. They're like a Klansman saying that "It's ok to rape a ****** woman because she's not pure like a white woman". Well, I wouldn't stand for it. If I knew someone who believed that about the women in my culture I might well be in prison for murdering him.

Some people claim that Bush is engaged in a war against Islam. The statements above support the idea that some forms of Islam are engaged in a war against civilization. Those forms of Islam must be wiped out by whatever means are most efficient. War, conquest, and cultural imperialism are effective tools against it. So are vigorous and merciless prosecution, punishment, and deportation.
Here's the problem--the opening post didn't make that sort of distinction, though to be fair, most western news outlets don't note that Islam is as wide and varied a religion as Christianity. There's the widepsread notion in the west that there's one Islam, or at worst, a couple of variations, and that we can therefore discuss the teachings and attitudes as though the over 1 billion adherents all feel the same way.

Well that's just retarded--there are as many sects and versions of Islam as there are sects and versions of Christianity, but you don't hear people talking about forcing the redneck fundies that handle snakes to move into the 21st century, do you? Or see any real move toward making the Mormon offshoots in northern Utah/southern Idaho give up polygamy even though it's illegal? So why the disconnect?

Because it's easier to paint with a wide brush, especially when you're dealing with a religion with whom we're in conflict. It's easy to scapegoat a small group, point at them and say "look! evil! evil! evil!" than it is to have an honest discussion about it.

So many narrow minded people in one place. The man wasn't condoning rape, he was talking about not wearing a scarf. In their culture there is a stricter code of decency in public, especially for women, and to prevent women from taking it lightly, they warn that you might get raped if you go out like that. Just like saying "if you don't look both ways before crossing a road you might get hit by a car". Does that mean I am saying that kids who dont look both ways deserve to get hit by a car and die? Wtf is wrong with you people.

So many narrow minded people in one place. The man wasn't condoning rape, he was talking about not wearing a scarf. In their culture there is a stricter code of decency in public, especially for women, and to prevent women from taking it lightly, they warn that you might get raped if you go out like that. Just like saying "if you don't look both ways before crossing a road you might get hit by a car". Does that mean I am saying that kids who dont look both ways deserve to get hit by a car and die? Wtf is wrong with you people.
women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

No they're not. "Asking for rape" is a self-contradictory statement. If you ask for it it's sex, not rape. His statement was like me going up to you and saying "If you don't get the fuck out of this bar right now you're asking to get shot". It's a coercive threat. Not a piece of friendly advice. It's saying "Be a good muslim woman or be treated like a sex slave".

Copenhagen hasn't seen any real men since Admiral Nelson visited. Just thought I'd add that.

Oh really? I think you're forgetting about H. C. Andersen! A REAL man! :eek:

Ehm... Nevermind.

Umm, the Swedish connection is quite unclear. The article is about Denmark and a mufti in Copenhagen, but the quote of the young man/men is in Swedish.

What is the connection? Why is this thread so wrongly titled? Copenhagen is in Denmark. The mufti is in Copenhagen. He is not in Sweden.

I'm certainly not outraged over this. In fact, I think it's good that the mufti said it. There's nothing like seeing muslims reveal their true colours. We need more blunders like this, this is will make the common man realise just what muslim immigration will give us.

I'm certainly not outraged over this. In fact, I think it's good that the mufti said it. There's nothing like seeing muslims reveal their true colours. We need more blunders like this, this is will make the common man realise just what muslim immigration will give us.
Not all Muslims are the same. Most are normal folks. Some are scumbags. Some are scumbags because of their interpretations of their religion. It's important to make the distinction in order to prevent eliminating the good Muslims.

...exterminate the scum...

Not all Muslims are the same. Most are normal folks. Some are scumbags. Some are scumbags because of their interpretations of their religion. It's important to make the distinction in order to prevent eliminating the good Muslims.

When you say, exterminate, eliminate, etc., would you prefer it done by gas or just starvation, and would you like the camps outsourced to parts of eastern europe, or islands off the US coast?


Ok, even if you're speaking in hyperboles, _why_ the hyberbole? Why this silly, exaggerated language? It doesn't advance your argument at all.

Elgesh']When you say, exterminate, eliminate, etc., would you prefer it done by gas or just starvation, and would you like the camps outsourced to parts of eastern europe, or islands off the US coast?


Ok, even if you're speaking in hyperboles, _why_ the hyberbole? Why this silly, exaggerated language? It doesn't advance your argument at all.
I prefer it to be done through targeted killings, precision bombing, and the occasional mafia-style exploding car. We might find it usefull to kidnap them from their nations of origin and use drugs and sleep deprivation to extract intel from them before we dispose of them. I believe that we're in a war that pits certain interpretations of Islam against western civilization. The war can't be won by invading nations, because the enemy doesn't actually have a nation under their control. They're more like the "invisible empire of the KKK". They operate everywhere under cover. We need to infiltrate their organizations, exterminate their members, and find ways of keeping people from being seduced by their ideology.

I prefer it to be done through targeted killings, precision bombing, and the occasional mafia-style exploding car. We might find it usefull to kidnap them from their nations of origin and use drugs and sleep deprivation to extract intel from them before we dispose of them. I believe that we're in a war that pits certain interpretations of Islam against western civilization. The war can't be won by invading nations, because the enemy doesn't actually have a nation under their control. They're more like the "invisible empire of the KKK". They operate everywhere under cover. We need to infiltrate their organizations, exterminate their members, and find ways of keeping people from being seduced by their ideology.

I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, here :) I don't know you or NS well enough to tell if you're taking the piss or not.

I can tell you that I'm more frightened by your solution rather than your problem. I think you're being childish and paranoid, and that your conclusion 'teh Muzzies are @ WAR wiv uz!!' is beyond any credible belief.

Not all Muslims are the same. Most are normal folks. Some are scumbags. Some are scumbags because of their interpretations of their religion. It's important to make the distinction in order to prevent eliminating the good Muslims.
I agree that not all muslims are rapists, but islam plays an important part in creating a society where raping women for not wearing headscarves is acceptable. And I think that as soon as muslims would become a majority in a western society, they would become increasingly radicalised. Then we could experience the joys of islamic justice such as gang rapes, stonings and beheadings. The 'moderate' muslims are some of the most dangerous. They're the ones that have the potential to worm their way into the corridors of power in our societies and give their religion more influence over our systems of government. All islam is the enemy, not just a handful of ranting lunatics. At least the lunatics are easy to contain.

I'm certainly not outraged over this. In fact, I think it's good that the mufti said it. There's nothing like seeing muslims reveal their true colours. We need more blunders like this, this is will make the common man realise just what muslim immigration will give us. Tell me, how many times have you been raped by a Muslim?

They're the ones that have the potential to worm their way into the corridors of power in our societies and give their religion more influence over our systems of government. Aren't you referring to the world Jewish Bolshevik conspiracy?

Tell me, how many times have you been raped by a Muslim?
As far as I know I haven't. Though I don't see what that has to do with anything. You don't have to experience something like getting raped by a muslim to realise that rape is a major part of their culture. It's something that muslims in the west have an undeniable tendency to do.

Elgesh']Excuse me, but context?

over 25% of UK folk think (well, admit to thinking - there could easily be many more) that women who dress provocatively are 'asking for rape'.

We've already examined how this study was flawed in saying that. It was way more complex than the press report made it out to be

OMG teh evil muslims r out to rape our wimmin! People, a rapist is a rapist. When you say that a religion "makes" or "incourages" rape, you are GIVING AN EXCUSE for a rapist. You're saying rapists don't make their own choices and by extension, aren't really responsible or guilty of their own crimes. You're also saying that a religion can take an ordinary man and turn him into a rapist. That's bullshit, and I contend that if you're a male and you think that, you also think you yourself would be a rapist if only you'd read the wrong book on it. I hope thats not the case... but maybe I'm wrong.

A rapist is a rapist. Period.

But don't let me interfere with your charming attempts to AGAIN blame Islam for EVERYTHING.

All islam is the enemy, not just a handful of ranting lunatics. At least the lunatics are easy to contain.
It's _lovely_ to have an enemy, someone you can point to without a doubt in your heart or your mind and say 'there, that's what I fight against', it's so _simple_, basic, and visceral. But sometimes, you have to put away the childhood certainties of the nursery and engage in adult life - it's messy, and it's hard, and it's nuanced, and it makes you long for the days when it was all so simple. But the genie's out the bottle, you've grown up, and that's it. Willfully returning to a childish state of mind in an adult body, when your opinions will be listened to as an adult's... well, you know the rest.

If there were a threat to 'western civilisation' (or my little bit of it, in Britain), I'd join up to fight. Not because it's righteous, or just, or neccessarily better than anything else, but because it's _mine_, and some things you just do. You haven't even begun to convince me that the ramblings of some half educated holy men, and the actions of a few rapists, or even that of terrorists, represent a 'war against civilisation'.

Elgesh']
over 25% of UK folk think (well, admit to thinking - there could easily be many more) that women who dress provocatively are 'asking for rape'. I'm sure there are a similar number of prats in most countries and most religions.


Well then 25% of the UK folk are wankers.

Over here, the "she was asking for it" defense never works.

as long as they come to understand that sweden (and denmark) have laws against rape that will be enforced no matter how slutty a woman dresses (how DARE she go out of the house without a scarf!) who cares what they think? when they and their rapist friends have spent a few years in prison they may come to change their minds. or at least to acknowlege that while the women are asking for it, a bit of forced pussy isnt worth the time in prison.
A couple of years in a swedish prison isn't exactly harsh. There have actually been people from overseas who have come to Sweden and commited crimes so they could live in prison. If you're innocent it's hell of course, but it's mostly just boring according to some police officers and prisonguards I've spoken to. The "youthprisons" are very harsh, though.

The feeling that women who don't cover up in beekeeper suits are "immodest" IS prevalent more among muslim youths who are recent immigrants to liberal societies.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20535
Muslim Gang Rapes and the Aussie Riots
By Sharon Lapkin
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 15, 2005

In Australia this week amidst anger over an Islamic man’s rape conviction and the bashing of two Aussie life savers, working-class locals erupted in a rampage of anger and brawling in some of the worst racial riots in decades. But there is more to the story than is being repeated in the American mainstream media....

Four days after he set foot in Australia, the rape spree began. And during his sexual assault trial in a New South Wales courtroom, the Pakistani man began to berate one of his tearful 14-year-old victims because she had the temerity to shake her head at his testimony.

But she had every reason to express her disgust. After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

MSK is already serving a 22-year jail term for leading his three younger brothers in a gang rape of two other young Sydney girls in 2002. In his own defence, he argued that his cultural background, was responsible for his crimes.

And he is right.

In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system.

One village council recently ordered that five young girls should be “abducted, raped or murdered” for refusing to be treated as chattel. The girls were aged between six and thirteen when they were married without their knowledge, to pay a family debt.

And when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

So as MSK committed his acts of rape while visiting Australia, he was simply perpetuating his own cultural heritage. He hails from a society where officially sanctioned sexual violence is commonly employed as a means to enforce the subservience of women.

And this is where two fundamental tenets of the modern Left clash: the irresistible force of cultural relativism collides with the immovable object of gender equality. But in the 21st century it is the latter that must prevail.

The laissez faire attitudes of cultural relativism are unacceptable in modern society. Female genital mutilation is not some quaint tribal custom that we are bound to respect: it is barbarism, pure and simple.

Yet many Western leftists habitually excuse these crimes against women in order to maintain political solidarity with their allies in the Islamic world. After all, it would be tough to make common cause with Muslim groups in the antiwar movement if Progressives began to criticize the practice of polygamy.

But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women. We must not be seduced by the false tenets of cultural relativism into a toleration of forced marriages, officially sanctioned rape, and honour killings.

Australia’s unique brand of multiculturalism confers both rights and obligations: while cultural and linguistic diversity are to be cherished, every Australian must subscribe to a single standard of human rights. Australians must forcefully repudiate the corruption of the multicultural idea that would condone crimes against women and support jihadism.

The dangers of cultural relativism became evident Down Under last weekend when long-festering ethnic tensions erupted into violence at Cronulla Beach near Sydney. The trouble began when a group of Middle Eastern men were assaulted by mobs of angry locals. The local Member of Parliament, Bruce Baird MP, claimed the public outcry was revenge for the Bali bombings and September 11.

But Baird also explained that a series of high profile rapes in the area had spurred locals on and that a group of Middle Eastern men had attacked two Aussie lifesavers the previous weekend. Locals claimed to the media after the riots that they were sick of Lebanese Muslim gangs calling their daughters and wives names, and throwing cigarette butts at them.

Then neo-Nazis showed up in a transparent attempt to exploit local ethnic tensions for their own benefit. But mainstream Australians expressed their frustration with both the violence inflicted by Middle Eastern men, and the equally violent effort by white racists to exploit it.

While rejecting the tenets of neo-Nazism, working-class Aussies who live near Cronulla Beach were saying they’ve had enough of this culturally motivated crime wave in a wave of violence that is also unacceptable. The race riots in suburban Sydney represented a clash between two polar opposites of white supremacy and Islamic male supremacy. But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.

MSK is already serving a 22-year jail term for leading his three younger brothers in a gang rape of two other young Sydney girls in 2002. In his own defence, he argued that his cultural background, was responsible for his crimes.

And he is right.

Oh! well shit, if a rapist says he's not responsible for his crimes, he must not be!

Fucking asswipes. This is exactly what I mean. You blame the religion... and you excuse the rapist. There are no rapists, just innocent people twisted by their evil religion, right?

Its nice that the writers of this article, the anti-muslim crowd and the rapist are all in agreement. Such harmony. :rolleyes:

Elgesh']I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, here :) I don't know you or NS well enough to tell if you're taking the piss or not.

I can tell you that I'm more frightened by your solution rather than your problem. I think you're being childish and paranoid, and that your conclusion 'teh Muzzies are @ WAR wiv uz!!' is beyond any credible belief.
I'm completely serious. I see a threat to my culture's women as the worst possible weapon agains my people. When the whites conquered the Native Americans they raped their women. When the Klan wanted to keep the blacks in their place they raped their women. Raping another culture's women is a way of saying "We own you. We can take your women whenever we want and you can't do a thing about it." It's the surest way to conquer a people.

Note that I didn't say all muslims are at war with us. I went out of my way to stress that it's only a small group who are using rape as a cultural weapon.

You are either not understanding my posts, not reading my posts, or just thick headed enough to see any criticism of some forms of Islam as an attack against the whole thing.

Oh! well shit, if a rapist says he's not responsible for his crimes, he must not be!

Fucking asswipes. This is exactly what I mean. You blame the religion... and you excuse the rapist. There are no rapists, just innocent people twisted by their evil religion, right?

Its nice that the writers of this article, the anti-muslim crowd and the rapist are all in agreement. Such harmony. :rolleyes:

It clearly says "cultural background".

I agree that not all muslims are rapists, but islam plays an important part in creating a society where raping women for not wearing headscarves is acceptable. And I think that as soon as muslims would become a majority in a western society, they would become increasingly radicalised. Then we could experience the joys of islamic justice such as gang rapes, stonings and beheadings. The 'moderate' muslims are some of the most dangerous. They're the ones that have the potential to worm their way into the corridors of power in our societies and give their religion more influence over our systems of government. All islam is the enemy, not just a handful of ranting lunatics. At least the lunatics are easy to contain.
SOME FORMS OF ISLAM! Not all muslims believe that women are property to be used, or a good target in a cultural war of conquest. Most are good folks. Particularly those who have lived in the west for a while and absorbed our values.

OMG teh evil muslims r out to rape our wimmin! People, a rapist is a rapist. When you say that a religion "makes" or "incourages" rape, you are GIVING AN EXCUSE for a rapist. You're saying rapists don't make their own choices and by extension, aren't really responsible or guilty of their own crimes. You're also saying that a religion can take an ordinary man and turn him into a rapist. That's bullshit, and I contend that if you're a male and you think that, you also think you yourself would be a rapist if only you'd read the wrong book on it. I hope thats not the case... but maybe I'm wrong.

A rapist is a rapist. Period.

But don't let me interfere with your charming attempts to AGAIN blame Islam for EVERYTHING.
Is a rapist still a rapist when he makes religious or racial distinctions between his victims and "honorable women"? I say no. In that case rape becomes a weapon in a cultural war.

It clearly says "cultural background".

Wink wink, cultural background, wink wink. Whatever. My point remains whether you call it Islam or a cultural background.

Elgesh']It's _lovely_ to have an enemy, someone you can point to without a doubt in your heart or your mind and say 'there, that's what I fight against', it's so _simple_, basic, and visceral. But sometimes, you have to put away the childhood certainties of the nursery and engage in adult life - it's messy, and it's hard, and it's nuanced, and it makes you long for the days when it was all so simple. But the genie's out the bottle, you've grown up, and that's it. Willfully returning to a childish state of mind in an adult body, when your opinions will be listened to as an adult's... well, you know the rest.

If there were a threat to 'western civilisation' (or my little bit of it, in Britain), I'd join up to fight. Not because it's righteous, or just, or neccessarily better than anything else, but because it's _mine_, and some things you just do. You haven't even begun to convince me that the ramblings of some half educated holy men, and the actions of a few rapists, or even that of terrorists, represent a 'war against civilisation'.
Personally, and don't take this as a flame, I don't think you would. I think you would rationalize it so you wouldn't have to take any extreme action that would shake your comfortable life up.

It's my opinion based on a few posts, so it may well be wrong. It's only my impression and not meant to be offensive.

Is a rapist still a rapist when he makes religious or racial distinctions between his victims and "honorable women"? I say no.

Okay, I'll make my point one last time.

YES he is still a rapist. End of story. Did he rape someone? If the answer is yes, then yes he is still a rapist. I don't care how he decided his victims. Am I rapist if I only rape black women? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape dwarves? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape men in prison? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape women of 3rd generation mixed Indonesian descent on the third thursday of every two months? Yes.

I'm completely serious. I see a threat to my culture's women as the worst possible weapon agains my people. When the whites conquered the Native Americans they raped their women. When the Klan wanted to keep the blacks in their place they raped their women. Raping another culture's women is a way of saying "We own you. We can take your women whenever we want and you can't do a thing about it." It's the surest way to conquer a people.

Note that I didn't say all muslims are at war with us. I went out of my way to stress that it's only a small group who are using rape as a cultural weapon.

You are either not understanding my posts, not reading my posts, or just thick headed enough to see any criticism of some forms of Islam as an attack against the whole thing.

Please don't be so proprietous and sanctimonious as to pretend you're concerned about rape. God, you actually said 'my culture's women'... tres neo-tribal.

If I misrepresented your desires to spy on, kidnap, torture, and kill the 'bad muslims' while leaving the good ones alone, or your notion of a war between muslims and the west in "some forms of Islam are engaged in a war against civilization. Those forms of Islam must be wiped out... [by] War, conquest, cultural imperialism... merciless prosecution, punishment, and deportation." I aplogise. Your bombast, rhetoric, jingoism, and outright insanity got in the way of whatever message it was you hoped to send.

So... An article from Denmark about a danish mufti, and a undated statement from a swedish muslim - Yep, all muslims everywhere are obviously evil rapists. :rolleyes:
exactly.

Personally, and don't take this as a flame, I don't think you would. I think you would rationalize it so you wouldn't have to take any extreme action that would shake your comfortable life up.

It's my opinion based on a few posts, so it may well be wrong. It's only my impression and not meant to be offensive.

That's fine, you don't actually know anything about me, because I haven't told you - so how could you know! :)

Actor I admire most is David Niven. Not so much for his work but for the fact he stopped working in Hollywood to fight for Britain when WW2 started. I am an ex-RAF aircrew cadet. My father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were all members of the military when called on in WW1 and WW2, and National Service and I would do the same, voluntarily. In the event of a draft for whatever cause, I'd still enlist (things'd be pretty awful by that stage though... not big on drafts over here!).

I wouldn't join up for foolishness.

The feeling that women who don't cover up in beekeeper suits are "immodest" IS prevalent more among muslim youths who are recent immigrants to liberal societies.


Yea and the hypocrites get offended if you bring your cultural attitudes into their country.

Sorry but when you choose to live in or even visit another country; your cultural values mean dick.

Your views on life don't override the people that live in that country.

In fact we should place that pig in one of our prisions and listen to his cries when he gets traded for cigs.

SOME FORMS OF ISLAM! Not all muslims believe that women are property to be used, or a good target in a cultural war of conquest. Most are good folks. Particularly those who have lived in the west for a while and absorbed our values.
Maybe that's true for the moment, but as soon as muslims start getting their claws into society and become a majority I think we'd find a pretty rapid change in their behaviour. The ones who've lived in the west all their lives, such as the second or third generation muslim immigrants are just as bad. In fact, I'd say they're often worse. Look at the London bombers, all of them 'British'. And radical islamic doctrines such as Wahabbism are spreading rapidly in the younger generation of muslims.

Okay, I'll make my point one last time.

YES he is still a rapist. End of story. Did he rape someone? If the answer is yes, then yes he is still a rapist. I don't care how he decided his victims. Am I rapist if I only rape black women? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape dwarves? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape men in prison? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape women of 3rd generation mixed Indonesian descent on the third thursday of every two months? Yes.
Yes, of course they're still rapists, but we're not going to solve these problems by simply saying "rape is bad". We jail rapists all the time, but it still goes on. We need to look further into the religious, cultural and sociological factors in rape if we want to tackle the issue. Prevention is better than cure. You can't deny that these rapes have cultural and religious factors attached to them, and you also can't deny that muslims in the west have far more of a tendency to rape.

Maybe that's true for the moment, but as soon as muslims start getting their claws into society and become a majority I think we'd find a pretty rapid change in their behaviour. The ones who've lived in the west all their lives, such as the second or third generation muslim immigrants are just as bad. In fact, I'd say they're often worse. Look at the London bombers, all of them 'British'. And radical islamic doctrines such as Wahabbism are spreading rapidly in the younger generation of muslims.


#throw the jew down the well!
so my country can be free!
you must grab him by his horns!
tthen we have a big par-ty!#

Maybe that's true for the moment, but as soon as muslims start getting their claws into society and become a majority I think we'd find a pretty rapid change in their behaviour. Probably true. Look what happened when the Catholics got power in, for example, England. Or the Protestants. Or the Secularists in 18th Century France.

Get the point?

Elgesh']#throw the jew down the well!
so my country can be free!
you must grab him by his horns!
tthen we have a big par-ty!#


And we have a Godwin!

and you also can't deny that muslims in the west have far more of a tendency to rape.
Really, I can't? Prove it! Back up that statement with a trusty source...

Elgesh']Please don't be so proprietous and sanctimonious as to pretend you're concerned about rape. God, you actually said 'my culture's women'... tres neo-tribal.

If I misrepresented your desires to spy on, kidnap, torture, and kill the 'bad muslims' while leaving the good ones alone, or your notion of a war between muslims and the west in "some forms of Islam are engaged in a war against civilization. Those forms of Islam must be wiped out... [by] War, conquest, cultural imperialism... merciless prosecution, punishment, and deportation." I aplogise. Your bombast, rhetoric, jingoism, and outright insanity got in the way of whatever message it was you hoped to send.
No shit it's neo-tribal. We haven't evolved since Cro Magnon times. We're essentially using the same brain that the Israelites used to exterminate their enemies and take their young virgins as slaves. Culture is the one thing that raises us above that level. Our cultrue sees rape of anyone as an abomination. Their culture (the barbaric muslims, not the modern ones) see rape of the enemy's women as justified. We must fight to see that such a point of view is universally reviled.

Oh, by the way, you might see my use of "our women" as patriarchial and chauvinist. It's not. They, like the men and children, belong to the culture. I'm not saying that the men own the women. That goes against the values of western culture.

Okay, I'll make my point one last time.

YES he is still a rapist. End of story. Did he rape someone? If the answer is yes, then yes he is still a rapist. I don't care how he decided his victims. Am I rapist if I only rape black women? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape dwarves? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape men in prison? Yes. Am I a rapist if I only rape women of 3rd generation mixed Indonesian descent on the third thursday of every two months? Yes.
NO! If he uses rape as a weapon against a race, religion, or culture he's worse than a rapist. It's hard to believe that there's anything lower than a rapist, but a rapist/religious supremacist is worse.

Maybe that's true for the moment, but as soon as muslims start getting their claws into society and become a majority I think we'd find a pretty rapid change in their behaviour. The ones who've lived in the west all their lives, such as the second or third generation muslim immigrants are just as bad. In fact, I'd say they're often worse. Look at the London bombers, all of them 'British'. And radical islamic doctrines such as Wahabbism are spreading rapidly in the younger generation of muslims.


.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is an important part of who we are. Judge people by their actions as individuals, not by what religion (diverse as it is) or you're a traitor to the cause we're supposed to be defending.

Wink wink, cultural background, wink wink. Whatever. My point remains whether you call it Islam or a cultural background.

Nope. You jumped the gun and now you are vainly trying to defend it.

The author of the article made no accusations on Islam (neither do I for that matter) for the rapist MSK's behavior.

She was rather perceptive in bringing out the prevalent culture in certain areas in Pakistan. FYI, it is true that there is severe misogynism in those areas where women are routinely sentenced to gang rapes for revenge and honor killings is the norm. This is an accepted behavior there....in that nobody in the administration does anything to legislate and enforce the law.

And why is that one cannot bring out these without being called "anti-Islamic". Is muslim culture = Islam ? Is Islam a holy cow?

If he uses rape as a weapon against a race, religion, or culture he's worse than a rapist. It's hard to believe that there's anything lower than a rapist, but a rapist/religious supremacist is worse.

"Judge people by their actions as individuals"

Physician, heal thyself. Your thinking here (in both posts) is about rape as a consequence of an individual's warped self/upbringing, not as a wider cultural malaise within a group. Punish the individual for his crime, he's the one to blame.

Elgesh']"Judge people by their actions as individuals"

Physician, heal thyself. Your thinking here (in both posts) is about rape as a consequence of an individual's warped self/upbringing, not as a wider cultural malaise within a group. Punish the individual for his crime, he's the one to blame.
I am. If a man or a group of men decide that rape of a certain class or group of women is OK because of the group they belong to I judge them as worse than ordinary rapists. They are using rape as a weapon, rather than just being immoral scumbags who value their pleasure over a woman's rights. It's similar to the concept behind hate crime laws. Also, some cultures seem to embrace the idea that their "inherent superiority" gives them the right to violate the rights of others. (see Aryavartha's previous post) That makes them analogous to the KKK commiting hate crimes agains blacks.

I really don't see where I'm contradicting myself.

I really don't see where I'm contradicting myself.
"Our cultrue sees rape of anyone as an abomination. Their culture (the barbaric muslims, not the modern ones) see rape of the enemy's women as justified. We must fight to see that such a point of view is universally reviled."

Using rape to beat a culture over the head.

"Judge people by their actions as individuals"

Back to individuals. As it should be.

Elgesh']"Our cultrue sees rape of anyone as an abomination. Their culture (the barbaric muslims, not the modern ones) see rape of the enemy's women as justified. We must fight to see that such a point of view is universally reviled."

Using rape to beat a culture over the head.

"Judge people by their actions as individuals"

Back to individuals. As it should be.
Ok, so every Klansman is different. Some of them believe in equality, right? And of course all white folks are Klansmen, right? Those are the distinctions I'm making. Not all Muslims want to see a war between their culture and ours. Those who belong to certain cultural groups do.

When I come across a Muslim I don't know if he's one of the barbaric savages or if he's a good guy. Therefore I don't jump to any conclusions about him. That's what I mean by "judging people by their actions as individuals".

Ok, so every Klansman is different. Some of them believe in equality, right? And of course all white folks are Klansmen, right? Those are the distinctions I'm making. Not all Muslims want to see a war between their culture and ours. Those who belong to certain cultural groups do.

When I come across a Muslim I don't know if he's one of the barbaric savages or if he's a good guy. Therefore I don't jump to any conclusions about him. That's what I mean by "judging people by their actions as individuals".


Excellent, good deal! There's something I can agree with. I question your 'barbaric savage' word choice due to its emotive/other unfortunate over tones, but I get and accept the point behind it.

I'm pleased you're posting like this - it's measured, articulate, and moderate. What on earth was that trash-talking style earlier about? It doesn't seem like you (just from what I've read elsewhere, obv. :)). I'm not trying to make a point, I'm genuinely confused!

Elgesh']Excellent, good deal! There's something I can agree with. I question your 'barbaric savage' word choice due to its emotive/other unfortunate over tones, but I get and accept the point behind it.

I'm pleased you're posting like this - it's measured, articulate, and moderate. What on earth was that trash-talking style earlier about? It doesn't seem like you (just from what I've read elsewhere, obv. :)). I'm not trying to make a point, I'm genuinely confused!
Rape and supremicism make me very angry. I'm of Italian descent, so when I get angry I get loud and violent.

Is is possible that this sort of attitude - that it's ok to rape non-Muslim women, or they are "asking for it" is a general attitude amongst Muslim immigrants?
The ultra-conservatism of Muslims in Europe is really getting out of hand. I think that we should be less tolerant of religious excesses like this.

Elgesh']This rapist's religion is barely a tangent to the main point, which is that too many folk think that rape victims are to blame for being raped by the way they dress. The west has come up with this shameful conclusion, and so has the east - it's got little to do with religion, more with patriarchy and feminism.
It has quite a lot to do with religion. Islamic communities are infested by patriarchy.

All those who are convincted of raping a woman deserve to be castrated with a dull blade, left to suffer from the resulting infections for days, then executed by being autoclaved alive. Thats regardless of religion, race, or age.

The author of the article made no accusations on Islam (neither do I for that matter) for the rapist MSK's behavior.

Religion and culture are very closely tied in together. Are you denying this?

You said,

The feeling that women who don't cover up in beekeeper suits are "immodest" IS prevalent more among muslim youths who are recent immigrants to liberal societies.

And it seems to me if you are talking about prevalence in Muslim youths, you are talking about Islam (as are others in this thread, as are people who say that "their religion teaches them to rape" etc).

FYI, I consider nudity to be "immodest." That doesn't, in any single way, excuse me if I decide to rape a nudist.

MSK is trying to blame his "culture" (if he blamed his religion he would receive retribution from his culture) for his crime. And I'm saying that's bullshit, pure, simple, unannointed, grade-A bullshit.

NO! If he uses rape as a weapon against a race, religion, or culture he's worse than a rapist. It's hard to believe that there's anything lower than a rapist, but a rapist/religious supremacist is worse.

No, he is STILL a rapist. You don't transmute just because you also happen to be something else. If he was a nazi, would he no longer be a rapist? No, he'd still be a rapist, because he stuck his penis in a woman who did not consent. That's what a rapist is. He is using his "culture war" as an excuse to rape, not the other way around.

Rape and supremicism make me very angry. I'm of Italian descent, so when I get angry I get loud and violent.

Sorry, was called away, didn't mean to leave abruptly :)

I'm glad that's 'all' it was (pretty big all, but still, you ken what I mean). You want to be wary, though - it left a reasonable point covered in gross exaggerations, made you look like a real headbanger!

I still think you grossly overestimate what damage a 'war' between some strands of islam and the west would do, using muslims living in the west as your primary focus (as opposed to terrorism in Iraq etc.) (At least I think that's your focus, reading your posts, I'm not 100% positive...?)

Crimes are nasty things, but they're hardly going to bring down the fabric of society. Rape is the worst crime there is, but going mental over hordes of 'barbaric savages lusting after our womenfolk' is a pretty medieval mindset; I don't think it corresponds to reality. How often do the sort of cases you're thinking of occur, and is there _any_ sort of link between cases (other than 'the blokes are muslim'... that's sort of a given!)?

While not excusing the statements made by those Muslims, I'd just like to point out that that attitude is shared by some Christians (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/11/rape-myth.html) here in the US--not about headscarves precisely, but about dressing scantily or in the case I cited above, simply being a female.

I didn't see anything in that article about Christianity. What I found amusing was this passage:

I'm just curious what basis the moral relativists have for condemning rape in the first place. If I deem the slaking of my desire for lust - or violence, if you prefer that theory of rape - to be an intrinsic good, who are you to condemn it? Certainly, one could argue that it is a violation of private property rights, but then, what of those moral relativists who reject the notion of private property. If all property is held in common, then how can a woman object if I decide to make use of that which belongs to me?
Right, those who condemn rape unequivocally are relativists, yet he who says it's sometimes understandable is not relativist? He's obviously some sort of conservative (which is also the problem with these Muslims) who thinks that "relativist" is an accurate term for anyone to the left of him. I'm not sure if being relativist is even compatible with being a communist or socialist.

Because it's easier to paint with a wide brush, especially when you're dealing with a religion with whom we're in conflict. It's easy to scapegoat a small group, point at them and say "look! evil! evil! evil!" than it is to have an honest discussion about it.
WE ARE NOT IN CONFLICT WITH ISLAM.

We're in conflict with barbarians. The people quoted are barbarians. They call themselves Muslims and to be honest I couldn't care less about how credible that claim is. I know plenty of decent, respectable folk who are Muslims, and they're much better than these scumbags.

So many narrow minded people in one place. The man wasn't condoning rape, he was talking about not wearing a scarf. In their culture there is a stricter code of decency in public, especially for women, and to prevent women from taking it lightly, they warn that you might get raped if you go out like that.
That's not acceptable. Women should be able to live without fear of rape just because they're not wearing a scarf. No excuses!

Elgesh']I can tell you that I'm more frightened by your solution rather than your problem. I think you're being childish and paranoid, and that your conclusion 'teh Muzzies are @ WAR wiv uz!!' is beyond any credible belief.
Nice straw man. Drunk Commies has made it clear that he considers most Muslims to be friendly and good. He opposes the extremist minorities that actively hate the west. Do you deny that such groups exist?

I agree that not all muslims are rapists, but islam plays an important part in creating a society where raping women for not wearing headscarves is acceptable. And I think that as soon as muslims would become a majority in a western society, they would become increasingly radicalised. Then we could experience the joys of islamic justice such as gang rapes, stonings and beheadings. The 'moderate' muslims are some of the most dangerous. They're the ones that have the potential to worm their way into the corridors of power in our societies and give their religion more influence over our systems of government. All islam is the enemy, not just a handful of ranting lunatics. At least the lunatics are easy to contain.
This is mostly paranoia but contains one or two good points lost in the purple mist of craziness. Though I am concerned about even moderate Islamic influence in government. I don't fear stonings, beheadings, etc, but I am not prepared to give up an inch of secularism.

OMG teh evil muslims r out to rape our wimmin! People, a rapist is a rapist. When you say that a religion "makes" or "incourages" rape, you are GIVING AN EXCUSE for a rapist. You're saying rapists don't make their own choices and by extension, aren't really responsible or guilty of their own crimes. You're also saying that a religion can take an ordinary man and turn him into a rapist. That's bullshit, and I contend that if you're a male and you think that, you also think you yourself would be a rapist if only you'd read the wrong book on it. I hope thats not the case... but maybe I'm wrong.
Despite your individualist ideology, culture influences the people that are raised in it. Islam probably does have something to do with it since, as Deep Kimchi pointed out, Muslim men commit rape in disproportionately high numbers.

And this is where two fundamental tenets of the modern Left clash: the irresistible force of cultural relativism collides with the immovable object of gender equality. But in the 21st century it is the latter that must prevail.

The laissez faire attitudes of cultural relativism are unacceptable in modern society. Female genital mutilation is not some quaint tribal custom that we are bound to respect: it is barbarism, pure and simple.

Yet many Western leftists habitually excuse these crimes against women in order to maintain political solidarity with their allies in the Islamic world. After all, it would be tough to make common cause with Muslim groups in the antiwar movement if Progressives began to criticize the practice of polygamy.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20535
As a leftist in the West I can hardly put into words how betrayed I feel every time a fellow leftist makes excuses for horrific actions just because they were committed by someone of a different culture to ours.

Here is a small example: how can one support gay marriage but give radical Muslims a free pass to spread hate, or even the Iranian government to execute?

The problem is that too many on the "left" have forgotten our roots and values: solidarity, equality, rights and hard work. Blind moral relativism is not one of our values; let it be gone.

Elgesh']Please don't be so proprietous and sanctimonious as to pretend you're concerned about rape. God, you actually said 'my culture's women'... tres neo-tribal.
And these radical Muslims that you want to do nothing about are more sophisticated than Drunk Commies here?

Elgesh']If I misrepresented your desires to spy on, kidnap, torture, and kill the 'bad muslims' while leaving the good ones alone, or your notion of a war between muslims and the west in "some forms of Islam are engaged in a war against civilization. Those forms of Islam must be wiped out... [by] War, conquest, cultural imperialism... merciless prosecution, punishment, and deportation." I aplogise. Your bombast, rhetoric, jingoism, and outright insanity got in the way of whatever message it was you hoped to send.
Why should such barbarous practices be allowed to continue? They only create suffering.

Elgesh']"Judge people by their actions as individuals"

Physician, heal thyself. Your thinking here (in both posts) is about rape as a consequence of an individual's warped self/upbringing, not as a wider cultural malaise within a group. Punish the individual for his crime, he's the one to blame.
I'm all for punishing individuals. I'm also all for preventing other such rapists from arising in the future. There are some cultures in which there is a widespread view that rape is OK. This shouldn't be tolerated because it breeds more people who may become rapists than in the culture which says that rape is never OK.

All those who are convincted of raping a woman deserve to be castrated with a dull blade, left to suffer from the resulting infections for days, then executed by being autoclaved alive. Thats regardless of religion, race, or age.
Let's not lose our heads! Torture and execution are rather disproportionate sentences for rape!

Religion and culture are very closely tied in together. Are you denying this?

Yes.

Depends on the society. For ex,

Jewish society has a culture which is closely tied with Judaism. Pashtuns have a culture which has aspects that are anti-Islamic. Balinese in Indonesia and Namboodaris in Kerala are both hindus, but have almost no cultural connection.

And it seems to me if you are talking about prevalence in Muslim youths, you are talking about Islam (as are others in this thread, as are people who say that "their religion teaches them to rape" etc).

Well then you should address it to those who say such thing (religion teaches them to rape).

Neither I nor the article make such an assumption, let alone accuse Islam of teaching such a thing.

Lemme ask again, is muslim culture/traditions/behavior = Islam ?



FYI, I consider nudity to be "immodest." That doesn't, in any single way, excuse me if I decide to rape a nudist.

No, but if you come from a culture where it is OK to rape "immodest" women and you immigrate to another nation where you rape a nudist and say that it is not wrong as per your culture, then certainly I can scrutinize this culture of yours and question it, right?

Per you replies earlier, it appears that by virtue of questioning that, I am anti-Islamic.

After all, the "justice by gang rape" is quite a common thing in the areas from where MSK comes from..

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330182002?open&of=ENG-PAK

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=6676

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-7-2002_pg7_1

http://www.youthnoise.com/page.php?page_id=1029


Apart from this gang rape phenomenon, otherwise raped women too get the short end of the stick. According to Hudood ordnances and shariat laws, a raped women requires four male witnesses to get her case proven.

Makes you wonder what the heck were those four males doing when the rape was being committed.

And the women's woes do not stop there. If she is unable to prove her case, she will get accused for making a wrongful accusation against the rapist and may get punished (a gang rape maybe as punishment) for that.

No wonder youths immigrating from those parts and lacking exposure, get these weird ideas of women who show ankles are asking to be raped.

I think that, in addition to normal penalties, rapist should be castrated - with red-hot tongs. Hey, it cauterizes the wound quickly, and prevents repeat offenders.

By the time a castrated rapist gets out of jail, his lack of testosterone should prevent any desire to re-offend.

As for whether Islam promotes rape... I don't know, but from what I know of Mohammed, if he caught a guy raping an immodestly clad woman, he would pull out his scimitar and lop off the rapist's head.

First off, I would like to apologize if any of my comments seem to break the chain of what you have all been saying. I have read over every page and comment, and I found it hard to not respond with violence every time I heard someone mouthing off about how every person of Islamic decent should be killed.

Second off, I am guessing that those of you who believe that those of that decent should all be killed have no Islamic/Muslim friends. Am I right?

Let's not lose our heads! Torture and execution are rather disproportionate sentences for rape!
I happen to disagree with this. Rape is a power struggle; those who rape need to feel like they are strong, they are in power, they are the ones who hold control. Those who are raped are completely violated; it is one of the worst punishments ever. In effect, it is, in my mind, a torture. The person (male or female) who is raped is continually haunted by the fact that they got raped, physically or mentally. Someone coming into your personal space when it's not wanted is an extreme breach of personal boundaries. Imagine the feeling you get when someone you don't want close to you gets close to you, multiplied by no less than one hundred. It's a horrible feeling. Though I have never been raped, and I hope that I never do, it's a topic that I'm passionate about and I have read a great deal on. No one, for any reason, should be violated in such a way; it's inexcusable. Depending on the extremity of the rape (meaning the physical and mental injuries sustained from the attack) sentances need to be carried out accordingly. While I don't usually condone torture, I would gladly allow anyone who rapes another human being to be subjected to torture for a long, long time.

You say they are disproportionate. I say rape is the worst form of torture out there. I'll give a few examples:

On HIV/AIDS day, my school showed us a video about a home for orphans with and without HIV/AIDS in Africa. Many of the children had been raped because of myths about virgins curing and/or preventing HIV/AIDS. Two of the children really stood out to me. I will never forget what they looked like, or their stories.

The first was a young girl. I believe they said she was eight. She was gang-raped by three men. They told her that if she told anyone, they would come and kill her. She was brought to the home/orphanage/camp not too long after by her Grandmother. It was over six months that she would go to sleep for a full night. She waited every night for the men to come, because she believed that they would come for her and kill her for telling someone.

The second was a boy. He was three years old, two when he first came, and the youngest rape victim that was living there. He had been raped so hard, that when he arrived, he was bleeding out of his anus. Every time he goes to the bathroom, his insides come out; the people who work there have to put everything back in. I don't know if he will ever get better.

Tell me. Are living with things like that not torture? Can you honestly say that living with that is disproportionate to torture and/or death?

Moving on however...

The fact that some people would like to restrict immigration because of how certain people in certain cultures act is frightening to me. Some of my best friends are Middle Eastern in decent. If immigration of Islams is restricted, immigration of Middle Easterners in general will end up being restricted, just because people base too much on appearances. My best friend is a first generation child, born into an all Muslim, Persian family. Not one person in that family would ever, EVER condone rape of any kind. It directly insults me to know that some people think anyone of Muslim decent condones rape. That comment proves how ignorant of other cultures people can be.

If you believe Muslims should be executed, imprisioned, restricted, tortured, starved, exterminated, or re-educated, I don't see how that's any different than how Hitler and the Third Reich thought about Jews--and if any of you say that it's different because of rape, terrorism, etc., it just shows how uneducated people of this generation are of what happened to Jews during the Holocaust.

There's my two cents. I probably won't be responding any more. Just reading, unless some comment really strikes me, in a good way or bad.

Fucking barbarians like that should be deported back to the desert wastelands that they originally came from. Rapists of whatever religion should be forced to submit to involuntary sex change surgery without anesthetic and be forced to work as cheap prostitutes until they die of AIDS.

Best. Post. Ever.

Best. Post. Ever.
Is. That. Really. So? Really?

Maybe they should stick that Mufti in a prison with a big horny guy who doesn't care what gender his cell mate is. Then we can blame him because he wears a kind of dress. He was just asking for it! Making himself look like a woman!

What do you expect from a religion that encourages wife beating, among other atrocities?
Amen, The Koran is a disgusting book. Read it. I dare you. The book most similar to it is Mein Kemf

Amen, The Koran is a disgusting book. Read it. I dare you. The book most similar to it is Mein Kemf
Golf-clap.
Yes, disgusting.. kinda like any other religious book - I had to skip parts of the OT... Am I to believe you have read the Quo'ran... let alone Mein Kapf? Surely not.

Sorry. Bad form. I shouldn't ask things like that here in this thread. I'm sure IDF would love to start a new thread about the similarities of Quo'ran and Mein Kampf.

Amen, The Koran is a disgusting book. Read it. I dare you. The book most similar to it is Mein Kemf

No it isn't.

Amen, The Koran is a disgusting book. Read it. I dare you. The book most similar to it is Mein Kemf
Even I don't buy that last sentence. In all likelihood the book most similar to it is the Bible.

Even I don't buy that last sentence. In all likelihood the book most similar to it is the Bible.

This I can agree with. Lots and lots about God and how one should act and conduct themselves, a smattering of rules, and some nice parables scattered throughout.

I wonder if the Mein Kamf comparison will be qualified, or if it was just a hit and run.

This I can agree with. Lots and lots about God and how one should act and conduct themselves, a smattering of rules, and some nice parables scattered throughout.

I wonder if the Mein Kamf comparison will be qualified, or if it was just a hit and run. It was a hit and run by some Norwegian party, if I remember correctly. The fools said that it should be banned because it was similar to Mein Kampf, not realising that Mein Kampf was allowed in bookshops. :p

EDIT: As far as I know, Mein Kampf is rambling and badly written because it was dictated. If the Qu'ran's anything like the Bible, it won't be like that. :p

What do you expect from a religion that encourages wife beating, among other atrocities?

I suppose you'll be taking tribal Pakistani culture as a paintbrush to tar the whole of Islam next hmmm?

As was pointed out before, you get any number of retards who think the victim is asking for it by dress or manner from a broad spectrum of religions and cultures. Paintbrushing it is just a way of going "la la la la" and ignoring the real problem.

Solution. Find, convict, and charge the perps at a much higher ratio, start drilling it into society that it is not the woman at fault because of her past actions or whatever excuse mudflingers want to throw and start surgically removing the perp's ability to repeat said crime. Doesn't matter who you get, so long as guilt can be established.

Realistic? Not really. But it would be an effective solution.

The irony:

1) Veils were actually an import from Christianity, and nothing to do with Islam.

2) Silly that in the 21st century we still have people believing the old wives tale that rape is about a person seeking sexual intercourse.

3) The views by mufti's in Islam represent more the culture of which they were born into than than it being actually anything to do with the religion.

Islam happens to be a dominant religion in MANY third world countries and many countries which has a strong male dominance - so you can guess with this atmosphere, you have a religion which promotes the rights of women, and the dominant culture twisting the words of the Quaran to make it fit into the cultural atmosphere of the country.

Hence the reason that France wishes to have its own, French educated Mufti's who represent the cultural norms of French society and interprete the Quaran based on what France considers as acceptable - and I think by enlarge, that is what is required over all, on all countries that have a growing Muslim community, a situation where by Mufti's who are educated in the country and able to marrying up the religion with the cultural accept customers of the particular country which has embraced them.

I think that it becomes a religious issue when we look at the fact that rape is a crime of domination and violence. Some elements of Islam teach that women are subordinate to men. So when these young men see Western girls who are not subordinate to men, they decide to "teach them their place". Just like other rapists who generally have a hatred of women. The difference is this hatred is culturally ingrained and promoted. Now I have heard this reasoning out of the mouths of Muslim women as well as men. Stands to reason that culture/religion would have something to do with it.

Is a rapist still a rapist when he makes religious or racial distinctions between his victims and "honorable women"? I say no. In that case rape becomes a weapon in a cultural war.

I say yes. I say he's just using that as a lame ass excuse to justify his raping of others and escape the law of the land. Rape is a crime in most countries. And that means non-consensual/coerced sex. If you come from the land of neanderthals and commit crimes in the 20th century just cause they weren't crimes where you were, prepare for some jail time and more in the 20th century.

Cultural war? Rubbish. Its an excuse by rapist to hide behind so they can feel great about themselves. Start removing their ability to repeat the crimes and you'll see how many even think about saying its acceptable because of their culture.

Just plain awful... this retard should really be expelled! :mad:

I agree that not all muslims are rapists, but islam plays an important part in creating a society where raping women for not wearing headscarves is acceptable. And I think that as soon as muslims would become a majority in a western society, they would become increasingly radicalised. Then we could experience the joys of islamic justice such as gang rapes, stonings and beheadings. The 'moderate' muslims are some of the most dangerous. They're the ones that have the potential to worm their way into the corridors of power in our societies and give their religion more influence over our systems of government. All islam is the enemy, not just a handful of ranting lunatics. At least the lunatics are easy to contain.
Cld u please tell me where in the Koran it actually states what u said it states. i.e the whole allowed 2 be raped 4 not wearing head scarfs ectera, cause at the moment it just sounds like u're espousing a whole load of bigioted rubish.

Just plain awful... this retard should really be expelled! :mad: No way. It isn't right to unleash rapists/would-be rapists on some other country's citizens.

Some elements of Islam teach that women are subordinate to men.

Aye .... but an equal number of elements teach that men are subordinate to women.

Aye .... but an equal number of elements teach that men are subordinate to women.

To follow this up, I know it's been said, but just to reiterate, Islam's not a monolithic block, and folk who happen to be muslim aren't _solely_ defined by their version-of-their-religion; they've got their own genetic predispositions, were brought up by their own families, had the imput of their own culture... their religion sits with all that.

Even where you've got 2 blokes of the exact same 'strand' of a religion, are you telling me an upper class, big city sophisticate will think and act the same as an un/semi-employed inner city working class man? Dinnae confound strands-of-islam with the person-as-a-whole who follows it.