NationStates Jolt Archive

Really it seems now that it is turning into a totalarian police state. With the patriot act infringing on civil liberties and everything. I just want to get more evidence and if anyone has any...?

Really it seems now that it is turning into a totalarian police state. With the patriot act infringing on civil liberties and everything. I just want to get more evidence and if anyone has any...?

I've seen that USA-bashing here is absolutely forbidden, while EU-bashing is not.

I'll just say that Ante Gotovina was recently detained for NOT AVOIDING the death of 250 serbs. There are 30,000 civilians dead in Iraq, and Bush was even promoted as candidate for a Nobel Prize!!!

I've seen that USA-bashing here is absolutely forbidden, while EU-bashing is not.

I'll just say that Ante Gotovina was recently detained for NOT AVOIDING the death of 250 serbs. There are 30,000 civilians dead in Iraq, and Bush was even promoted as candidate for a Nobel Prize!!!

Candidate for what nobel prize?

I've seen that USA-bashing here is absolutely forbidden, while EU-bashing is not.
There are a bunch of conservative Americans here that say the exact opposite thing. (EDIT:Oh, my profetic soul (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10113145&postcount=13)) One just went down in flames the other day/today...losing track.

Usually this kind of thing is said by people that have a hard time decerning between 'bashing' and criticism, not understanding that the former is not allowed regardless. But since they can't tell the difference, they have these tizzies.

I'll just say that Ante Gotovina was recently detained for NOT AVOIDING the death of 250 serbs. There are 30,000 civilians dead in Iraq, and Bush was even promoted as candidate for a Nobel Prize!!!
From what I understand, and this is only going by hearsay so I'm up to being corrected, just about any yay-hoo can make a nomination, being nominated isn't as big a deal as it sounds. There was some scuttle about this earlier and I don't remember the details.

"Iron law of the oligarchy"
I pretty much think every 'democratic' country is turning in a police state. With all the terrorism and rioting as reason AND result

EDIT: oh and here it is:

The Iron Law of Oligarchy

"Michels (1911) came to the conclusion that the formal organization of
bureaucracies inevitably leads to oligarchy, under which organizations
originally idealistic and democratic eventually come to be dominated by a
small, self-serving group of people who achieved positions of power and
responsibility. This can occur in large organizations because it becomes
physically impossible for everyone to get together every time a decision
has to be made. Consequently, a small group is given the responsibility of
making decisions. Michels believed that the people in this group would
become enthralled with their elite positions and more and more inclined to
make decisions that protect their power rather than represent the will of
the group they are supposed to serve. In effect Michels was saying that
bureaucracy and democracy do not mix. Despite any protestations and
promises that they would not become like all the rest, those placed in
positions of responsibility and power often come to believe that they too
are indispensable, and more knowledgeable than those they serve. As time
goes on, they become further removed from the rank and file...

"The Iron Law of Oligarchy suggests that organizations wishing to avoid
oligarchy should take a number of precautionary steps. They should make
sure that the rank and file remain active in the organization and that the
leaders not be granted absolute control of a centralized administration.
As long as there are open lines of communication and shared decision making
between the leaders and the rank and file, an oligarchy cannot easily
develop.

"Clearly, the problems of oligarchy, of the bureaucratic depersonalization
described by Weber, and of personal alienation all are interrelated. If
individuals are deprived of the power to make decisions that affect their
lives in many or even most of the areas that are important to them,
withdrawal into narrow ritualism (overconformity to rules) and apathy are
likely responses. Such withdrawals seemed to constitute a chronic
condition in some of the highly centralized socialist countries. However,
there are many signs of public apathy in the United States, too. For
example, in 1964 about 70 percent of those eligible to vote for president
did so. In each of the succeeding national elections this figure has
dropped, and in 1988 it was only 50 percent."

"Iron law of the oligarchy"
I pretty much think every 'democratic' country is turning in a police state. With all the terrorism and rioting as reason AND result
i'd say you're wrong but the bloody sydney-siders fixed that for me, morons that they are
(no flaming intended)

Candidate for what nobel prize?
"Best invasion of a country with most civilians killed." :rolleyes:
Or was that "Most stupid excuse for invading a country"?

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Does everyone here live in the USA? Obviously everyone writes in English.

USA a police state? I feel just as free as I did 25 years ago. Maybe it's because I don't break the law, so If I have been tapped or spied upon, they didn't find anything and moved on.

Still they shouldnt really be tapping or spying should they? I would have thought it an invasion of privacy

USA a police state? I feel just as free as I did 25 years ago. Maybe it's because I don't break the law, so If I have been tapped or spied upon, they didn't find anything and moved on.
When I was younger and read things like 1984 and Brave New World I always thought, "C'mon now, how do people let that happen?" Then I started meeting people like this.

"Best invasion of a country with most civilians killed." :rolleyes:
Or was that "Most stupid excuse for invading a country"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

I think its covers 'stupid excuses' and 'most civilians killed' quite well, the last two may require some cross-refrencing to get to the 'most civilians killed' bit, but meh.

I've seen that USA-bashing here is absolutely forbidden, while EU-bashing is not.
Strange ... I see just the opposite! :p

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Does everyone here live in the USA? Obviously everyone writes in English.
[ points at the "location" line below his Nation's name ]

<--------------------------

No, we're nowhere near a police state. It's only been four years since 9/11 and we're still in Iraq, and the Senate still rejected the renewal of the Patriot Act by a sizable majority...if that's not a sign of our respect for freedom during war, I don't know what is.

It's not a police state until calling it one gets you imprisoned or killed in the middle of the night.

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Does everyone here live in the USA? Obviously everyone writes in English.
There's a thread in dutch (I think) that pops up everyonce in while.

No, we're nowhere near a police state. It's only been four years since 9/11 and we're still in Iraq, and the Senate still rejected the renewal of the Patriot Act by a sizable majority...if that's not a sign of our respect for freedom during war, I don't know what is.

It's not a police state until calling it one gets you imprisoned or killed in the middle of the night.
That was my understanding of it. The NSA spying on people is along the same lines of what we've been doing in America since the start of the cold war.

It kinda cracks me up that these young people think this is something new and they've made a revolutionary discovery. Welcome to government kiddies! :p

If I may put forward my own little theory on the nature of this mess we have here in the good ol' U S of A.

Its not that our politicians are universally corrupt, power-mongering freaks of nature. They're not. I've met them. I'm going to work for one this summer. He is NOT by anyone's standards, a corrupt freak. What he IS doing is his job. Representing the people of the 24th District of California. The fact that the 24th District is overwhelmingly white and rich obviously influences his decision making quite a bit. As a matter of fact, when one looks at government and finds waste, I'll bet a dime to a nickel that most of it is simply local constituent pork. Not that all pork is bad. Schools and roads and bridges and interstate highways have to be built SOMEWHERE, and jockeying for favor is never a bad thing. Shakes up the order. Pork on a massive scale, though IS a bad thing because it breaks down the unified front of the Federal Government into squabbling states and districts competing for seniority and prominence at the table. When coupled with gerrymandering on a massive scale that often as not is reflected on racial as well as ideological ideas, national ideas that have broad based support across the nation but aren't grouped up into districts where they can become a majority are not represented in the national government. That's what's wrong with America.

The founding fathers intended the Constitution to be a living document that would be able to adapt to changing environments and developments in political theory. However, we now view the constitution not just as a means of governance, but almost as a sacred relic, to be preserved at all costs, not as what it is. An imperfect document that worked perfectly well for governing a nation of 7 million in 1789 but that needs a bit of help in order to govern a nation of 295 million in 2005.

That was my understanding of it. The NSA spying on people is along the same lines of what we've been doing in America since the start of the cold war.

It kinda cracks me up that these young people think this is something new and they've made a revolutionary discovery. Welcome to government kiddies! :p

Even though it may not be new, there are some provisions in the Patriot Act, such as the conspicuous abscence of the need for a warrant to arrest a suspected terrorist that set a precedent that, though not earth-shattering, is worrisome, whether or not it's new or not.

i think the biggest problem at the moment is bush....

and too much arrogance in general in the USA...

plus the fact of overpatriotism to the point of didactic infringement on other poor countries... *COUGH*Australia*COUGH*

Even though it may not be new, there are some provisions in the Patriot Act, such as the conspicuous abscence of the need for a warrant to arrest a suspected terrorist that set a precedent that, though not earth-shattering, is worrisome, whether or not it's new or not.

The RICO laws are more pervasive, and have been the law of the land for a number of years. Are you outraged by them?

Just out of curiosity, where do you live? Does everyone here live in the USA? Obviously everyone writes in English.

Actually, you'll find that most Europeans speak reasonable English. When I was stationed in Germany the conventional wisdom was that if a German girl (under the age of 30) said she didn't speak English it was just because she didn't want to talk to you.