NationStates Jolt Archive

The other day I was at my Jewish community center (JCC) (I'm Jewish) and I was touring this holocaust memorial room they have. The person told us that behind this glass mirror, they have several things from the holocaust, lamp shades made from Jew skin, soap made from Jew skin...etc, naturally they wouldnt open it up and let us see those things for ourselves. Now to me this sounded a LITTLE strange...soap made from Jews? Anyway I went home and did some researching and sure enough, on all the holocaust web sites it says that the Nazis made soap from Jews.....but then I found one web site that disproved it all, saying that this is totally 100% false, now I know what your thinking, it was a neo nazi group...but it wasnt! http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/...ndix-7-02.html and heres the background on him so you all know he is a credible source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Bauer If this guy is a neo nazi, I'd eat my shorts. He is a Professor of Holocaust Studies at the Avraham Harman Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. So guys, I have some questions that I desperatly need answering.....why all the widspread lies about this? and even more important if this isnt factual, are there other things that may not be 100% correct?

Please, it is very important that I get some replies to this and I urge EVERYONE to read the links I sent you.

In case anyone cant connect to the links (a poster told me he couldnt) I am posting what the first link connected to.

The Editor
The Jewish Standard
385 Prospect Avenue
Hackensack, NJ 07601
USA

Dear Sir,

It is only at this late date that the issue of your paper of May 25, 1990, reached me, with a letter by Mr. George Starkman, disputing my statement that there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate the claim that Nazis made soap out of bodies of Jews.

Mr. Starkman states that the soap was distributed in Poland on rationing stamps starting in 1941 and bore the inscription RJF, which he translates as "rein Juden fett."

In fact, the bars of soap, some of which can be seen in Jewish Memorial museums, including in Jerusalem, have the letters "R.I.F." written on them, and they mean "Reichsstelle fuer Industrielle Fettversorgung," or Reich Center for Industrial Supplies of Fats. The terms "rein Juden fett" spelt in this form does not exist in German in any case, and in 1941, when Mr. Starkman correctly states the soap was being distributed, there were as yet no extermination camps in existence. The first, Chelmno, started operating on December 8, 1941, the second, Belzec, in March. Auschwitz had experimental gassings going on since January, 1942.

The source of the legend was a rumor current in World War I, spread by the British, that the Germans were using bodies of their own soldiers for fat or manure production -- the rumor was disproved after 1918. The Nazis resuscitated the rumor, and used it as a form of additional sadism, in words this time, on their Jewish victims: it was the Nazis who told the Jews they would be made into soap, and the Poles heard it from the Nazis.

At the end of the war, the Russians uncovered, near Gdansk [then known as Danzig (JD)], a small laboratory in which parts of human bodies were used, of Polish and Russian slave workers probably, for some chemical purposes. These experiments could possibly have involved attempts to make soap out of human fats (which we know today is an almost impossible thing to do), but the Nazis apparently never managed to go beyond the experimental stage, if indeed that is what they were trying to do there. The laboratory was small, and it had been established only towards the end of the war. It did not involve Jewish bodies. The Russian prosecutor at Nuremberg brought the issue up in the trials, but had to drop it because no proof could be presented that these were actual experiments for the production of soap.

One has to fight wrong perceptions of the Holocaust, even if large numbers of survivors accept them as true. It is not as though the Nazis were not capable of this atrocity -- they certainly were -- but they, factually, did not do it. To claim, on the basis of Polish antisemitic slogans, or on the basis of rumors current in the camps -- in Auschwitz this was an accepted rumor -- that soap was produced of Jewish bodies, simply plays into the hands of the deniers of the Holocaust, who can easily prove that nothing of the kind ever happened. I deeply respect survivors' testimonies, and Mr. Starkman's is one of these, but that does not mean to say that such testimonies are free from misperceptions.


Sincerely,
Yehuda Bauer
Professor of Holocaust Studies

About the soap and whatnot, I don't know. I wasn't there. History is left to speculation. It could very well be urban legend and hyperbole (we Jews love hyperbole, just look at the flood stories), but nothing said about the Nazis surprises me much.

Soap is made from fat, and I would think that human fat would be slighty different chemically from animal fats, so couldn't one test a bar of this soap and find out for sure?

It's like Fight Club, but more rascist.

Soap is made from fat, and I would think that human fat would be slighty different chemically from animal fats, so couldn't one test a bar of this soap and find out for sure?

Yes, only I dont think they make soap from fat anymore....not sure though, but I remember hearing something about it being pure lab made soap now, not with animal lipids....I dunno though?

Soap is made from fat, and I would think that human fat would be slighty different chemically from animal fats, so couldn't one test a bar of this soap and find out for sure?

It is possible to make soap out of human fat. While not a reference, the movie "fight club" is an example. It's not the fat that gets you clean though, it's used as a congealant and dilutant for the lye or other agent.

As to whether the Nazi's did it w/ Jews, I wouldn't be surprised(hair for socks, Mendela's experiments, etc) but I don't have any evidence either way.

At least they used every part of the Jew. Nothing goes to waste in the tribe of the Nazi - tomorrow on the Discovery Channel. Have to respect the ruthless overefficiency.

It is possible to make soap out of human fat. While not a reference, the movie "fight club" is an example. It's not the fat that gets you clean though, it's used as a congealant and dilutant for the lye or other agent.

As to whether the Nazi's did it w/ Jews, I wouldn't be surprised(hair for socks, Mendela's experiments, etc) but I don't have any evidence either way.

Yeah but thats not the point, if they didnt use Jew soap, which this guy (the head of the holocaust museum thing in Israel) says they didnt, what is behind the glass that they told us was Jew soap, and why would they lie?

It really really confuses me.:confused:

Yes, only I dont think they make soap from fat anymore....not sure though, but I remember hearing something about it being pure lab made soap now, not with animal lipids....I dunno though?
There are 2 kinds of soap, one made from fat and lye and the other from glycerene (sp?)

Some of the fat and lye soaps are still made with animal fat, and some are made with synthetic fat. I prefer animal fat soaps.


as far as whether people were ever used to make soap, I am sure it could have worked scientifically, if it is true historically I don't know. It's really sad a lot of the stuff that went on, so I wouldn't doubt that this was true also.

Why would anybody lie about something like this though? It's a grotesque thought.

Yes, only I dont think they make soap from fat anymore....not sure though, but I remember hearing something about it being pure lab made soap now, not with animal lipids....I dunno though?
Yeah, but if the Nazis were making it out of Jews I'd bet that it's fat based soap rendered from the corpses.

Yeah, but if the Nazis were making it out of Jews I'd bet that it's fat based soap rendered from the corpses.

of course...thats not what I meant...I meant soap now a days was made from labs out of chemicals...sorry for the mix up.

Why would anybody lie about something like this though? It's a grotesque thought.

And that, my friend, is that million dollar question.

I honestly don't think the Nazis were efficient enough to process Jews into soap. In any case, without wishing to offend...is this that big a 'rumour'? I'd never heard of it before.

I have no evidence aside from the usual (partly biased) ones...so I really don't know.

I would say that, while not a widespread practice, it probably happened. Nazis were pretty good at coming up with not only torture and murder methods, but also ways to desecrate the dead. Having death camp people wash themselves with other prisoners (literally) would be just twisted enough to be scaring

I suppose the red bitch might have had some made.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauTrials/IlseKoch2.html

The other day I was at my Jewish community center (JCC) (I'm Jewish) and I was touring this holocaust memorial room they have. The person told us that behind this glass mirror, they have several things from the holocaust, lamp shades made from Jew skin, soap made from Jew skin...etc, naturally they wouldnt open it up and let us see those things for ourselves. Now to me this sounded a LITTLE strange...soap made from Jews? Anyway I went home and did some researching and sure enough, on all the holocaust web sites it says that the Nazis made soap from Jews.....but then I found one web site that disproved it all, saying that this is totally 100% false, now I know what your thinking, it was a neo nazi group...but it wasnt! http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/...ndix-7-02.html and heres the background on him so you all know he is a credible source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Bauer If this guy is a neo nazi, I'd eat my shorts. He is a Professor of Holocaust Studies at the Avraham Harman Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. So guys, I have some questions that I desperatly need answering.....why all the widspread lies about this? and even more important if this isnt factual, are there other things that may not be 100% correct?

Please, it is very important that I get some replies to this and I urge EVERYONE to read the links I sent you.


So you have different opinions of different experts on a subject... what is so surprising about that?
You'll find similar instances and behaviour in all fields of science. This case could be easily proven simply by testing the soap, I guess.

For some reason, I couldn't open the 1st link of the OP. Here's what Yehuda Bauer says; just 25 kilos (http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-7-01.html). And another one (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap03.html) basically saying 'this comes up because people bring it up'... so that's 'why' for you.
*scratches head in confusion*

For some reason, I couldn't open the 1st link of the OP. Here's what Yehuda Bauer says; just 25 kilos (http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-7-01.html). And another one (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap03.html) basically saying 'this comes up because people bring it up'... so that's 'why' for you.
*scratches head in confusion*

Well heres what the link said...its very important that you read it. I will also post it in the orginal post just in case other people cant connect with the link.

The Editor
The Jewish Standard
385 Prospect Avenue
Hackensack, NJ 07601
USA

Dear Sir,

It is only at this late date that the issue of your paper of May 25, 1990, reached me, with a letter by Mr. George Starkman, disputing my statement that there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate the claim that Nazis made soap out of bodies of Jews.

Mr. Starkman states that the soap was distributed in Poland on rationing stamps starting in 1941 and bore the inscription RJF, which he translates as "rein Juden fett."

In fact, the bars of soap, some of which can be seen in Jewish Memorial museums, including in Jerusalem, have the letters "R.I.F." written on them, and they mean "Reichsstelle fuer Industrielle Fettversorgung," or Reich Center for Industrial Supplies of Fats. The terms "rein Juden fett" spelt in this form does not exist in German in any case, and in 1941, when Mr. Starkman correctly states the soap was being distributed, there were as yet no extermination camps in existence. The first, Chelmno, started operating on December 8, 1941, the second, Belzec, in March. Auschwitz had experimental gassings going on since January, 1942.

The source of the legend was a rumor current in World War I, spread by the British, that the Germans were using bodies of their own soldiers for fat or manure production -- the rumor was disproved after 1918. The Nazis resuscitated the rumor, and used it as a form of additional sadism, in words this time, on their Jewish victims: it was the Nazis who told the Jews they would be made into soap, and the Poles heard it from the Nazis.

At the end of the war, the Russians uncovered, near Gdansk [then known as Danzig (JD)], a small laboratory in which parts of human bodies were used, of Polish and Russian slave workers probably, for some chemical purposes. These experiments could possibly have involved attempts to make soap out of human fats (which we know today is an almost impossible thing to do), but the Nazis apparently never managed to go beyond the experimental stage, if indeed that is what they were trying to do there. The laboratory was small, and it had been established only towards the end of the war. It did not involve Jewish bodies. The Russian prosecutor at Nuremberg brought the issue up in the trials, but had to drop it because no proof could be presented that these were actual experiments for the production of soap.

One has to fight wrong perceptions of the Holocaust, even if large numbers of survivors accept them as true. It is not as though the Nazis were not capable of this atrocity -- they certainly were -- but they, factually, did not do it. To claim, on the basis of Polish antisemitic slogans, or on the basis of rumors current in the camps -- in Auschwitz this was an accepted rumor -- that soap was produced of Jewish bodies, simply plays into the hands of the deniers of the Holocaust, who can easily prove that nothing of the kind ever happened. I deeply respect survivors' testimonies, and Mr. Starkman's is one of these, but that does not mean to say that such testimonies are free from misperceptions.


Sincerely,
Yehuda Bauer
Professor of Holocaust Studies

now, let's talk efficiency once more as it is my fave concept.

think concentration camps. got that? try to remember all the pictures you once saw. yeah, the ones with those wrecked, barely living human beings. now think soap-making. think fat. just how much fat are you going to get out of these bodies? not enough to maintain an efficient programm, methinks.

apart from the fact that just burning them en masse in huge ovens nearly killed the capacities already. how do you fit in the time to drench fat out of them?

Thanks for posting that. I agree 100% with Mr. Bauer's last paragraph there.

The other day I was at my Jewish community center (JCC) (I'm Jewish) and I was touring this holocaust memorial room they have. The person told us that behind this glass mirror, they have several things from the holocaust, lamp shades made from Jew skin, soap made from Jew skin...etc, naturally they wouldnt open it up and let us see those things for ourselves. Now to me this sounded a LITTLE strange...soap made from Jews? Anyway I went home and did some researching and sure enough, on all the holocaust web sites it says that the Nazis made soap from Jews.....but then I found one web site that disproved it all, saying that this is totally 100% false, now I know what your thinking, it was a neo nazi group...but it wasnt! http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/features/...ndix-7-02.html and heres the background on him so you all know he is a credible source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Bauer If this guy is a neo nazi, I'd eat my shorts. He is a Professor of Holocaust Studies at the Avraham Harman Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. So guys, I have some questions that I desperatly need answering.....why all the widspread lies about this? and even more important if this isnt factual, are there other things that may not be 100% correct?

Please, it is very important that I get some replies to this and I urge EVERYONE to read the links I sent you.
Ok now, bear with me.

Most people, when they say that the Nazis made soap out of of human fat or lampshades out of human skin, imply that they were mass produced on industrial scale. This is a common misunderstanding- but one based on truth. You see, human fat soap was never mass produced- but it was never the claim in the first place. What is true, however, is that the Nazis attempted- unsuccessfully- to utilize human fat to produce soap. The work was done by one Dr. Spanner in the Danzig Anatomical Institute, and there exist tons of evidence to it, both material (soap recipee written by Spanner and the equipment of the lab) and witness testimonies. However, either Spanner was a lousy researcher or human fat just wasn't suitable for the task, and eventually the project was abandoned.

However, Spanner was just as lousy in keeping his project secret as he was in his "industrial" endeavors, and the rumours about soap being made out of dead bodies soon spread across Germany and even beyond its borders. Many concentration camp survivors told that their guards used the soap rumours to taunt the prisoners- and in the inhuman conditions of the Nazi death camps, it did not seem all that improbable. Many civilians in the conquered Poland claimed that the soap most commonly used by the German occupiers at that time- the one produced by the Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning (RIF) was made out of human fat. After the war, some Poles tried to sell RIF soap bars at various auctions as a wartime rarity, claiming that it was the "Jewish fat soap".

What you saw on display (if it was an actual bar of soap and not a photograph) at your community center was most likely the mistakenly labeled RIF soap, since I doubt that they would have an authentic sample of soap produced in Danzig.

The same with the lampshades made out of human skin. They were not mass produced, but they did exist. Making lampshades, book covers and ornaments out of human skin (especially tattoed skin) was a "hobby" of the wife of the commandant of the Buchenwald camp.

Thanks for posting that. I agree 100% with Mr. Bauer's last paragraph there.

Same, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why they would tell us they had Jew Soap behind the glass, and, more importantly, WHAT they had behind the glass....:confused:

Someone get snopes onto this. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with a white dot though.

Ok now, bear with me.

Most people, when they say that the Nazis made soap out of of human fat or lampshades out of human skin, imply that they were mass produced on industrial scale. This is a common misunderstanding- but one based on truth. You see, human fat soap was never mass produced- but it was never the claim in the first place. What is true, however, is that the Nazis attempted- unsuccessfully- to utilize human fat to produce soap. The work was done by one Dr. Spanner in the Danzig Anatomical Institute, and there exist tons of evidence to it, both material (soap recipee written by Spanner and the equipment of the lab) and witness testimonies. However, either Spanner was a lousy researcher or human fat just wasn't suitable for the task, and eventually the project was abandoned.

However, Spanner was just as lousy in keeping his project secret as he was in his "industrial" endeavors, and the rumours about soap being made out of dead bodies soon spread across Germany and even beyond its borders. Many concentration camp survivors told that their guards used the soap rumours to taunt the prisoners- and in the inhuman conditions of the Nazi death camps, it did not seem all that improbable. Many civilians in the conquered Poland claimed that the soap most commonly used by the German occupiers at that time- the one produced by the Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning (RIF) was made out of human fat. After the war, some Poles tried to sell RIF soap bars at various auctions as a wartime rarity, claiming that it was the "Jewish fat soap".

What you saw on display (if it was an actual bar of soap and not a photograph) at your community center was most likely the mistakenly labeled RIF soap, since I doubt that they would have an authentic sample of soap produced in Danzig.

The same with the lampshades made out of human skin. They were not mass produced, but they did exist. Making lampshades, book covers and ornaments out of human skin (especially tattoed skin) was a "hobby" of the wife of the commandant of the Buchenwald camp.

Thanks for that post, that really helped clear things up, thank you.

Two things though. At the JCC, they told us they had the Jew Soap, but it was behind tinted glass, so we could not see what was behind there. And also, do you have a source for that, I'm assuming that your not lying and I find what you said to be very accurate, I just want to read into it more.

Thanks for the help on shedding some light on this subject.

Thanks for that post, that really helped clear things up, thank you.

Two things though. At the JCC, they told us they had the Jew Soap, but it was behind tinted glass, so we could not see what was behind there.
I wouldn't know. I suppose when they were collecting exhibits, they could have bought one of those RIF soap bars from a scammer. If the memorial room was not made by a professional historian, they probably would believe it was authentic.


And also, do you have a source for that, I'm assuming that your not lying and I find what you said to be very accurate, I just want to read into it more.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/soap-01.html


Thanks for the help on shedding some light on this subject.
You're welcome.

now, let's talk efficiency once more as it is my fave concept.

think concentration camps. got that? try to remember all the pictures you once saw. yeah, the ones with those wrecked, barely living human beings. now think soap-making. think fat. just how much fat are you going to get out of these bodies? not enough to maintain an efficient programm, methinks.

apart from the fact that just burning them en masse in huge ovens nearly killed the capacities already. how do you fit in the time to drench fat out of them?

Thought this post was worth highlighting, totally agree with it, and want to add to it.

Soap made from human remains by nazis isn't inherently unbelievable, but I don't think it's _likely_. Time and effort of extraction is a good point, and if you're a nazi, why are you going to want to bathe with soap made from 'inferior' groups? How widespread do you suppose such a practise might be, based on time and resources - they had more useful things to be getting on with (that whole 'war' thing, say). The point of the camps was to kill people, and secretly dispose of the remains, very quickly. Making soap etc. out of them on any scale seems... :confused:

But I don't imagine your memorial room is _intentionally_ lying at all; but lots of museums have acquired dubious finds over the years. This is likely to be the case here.

You have to remember that Germany was at war, and that various fats were in short supply.
There were "Save Fat" and donation campaigns and so on, both in WWI and WWII. I'd guess the relevant people (Speer?) would've used that sort of fat for industrial products and I guess soap too if needed.

At least there is a motive.

Thanks guys for all the comments...you guys cleared stuff up alot. Thanks.

Lye and fat soap is somewhat tricky to make; my grandmother makes it, everyone tends to steal it for scrubbing stains out of clothing. I believe that she uses beef fat, lye and ash from some source.

It takes a fine touch to make it. Too little lye and its lardy and greasy(and it spoils), and too much lye and it burns your hands. I might be a guy, but I am tempted to ask her to teach me to make it. I like odd skills like that.

Great topic. Fascinating reading. Did anyone contact snopes about this?


here are some instructions! http://farmgal.tripod.com/lyesoapconcoctions.html

Lye and fat soap is somewhat tricky to make; my grandmother makes it, everyone tends to steal it for scrubbing stains out of clothing. I believe that she uses beef fat, lye and ash from some source.

It takes a fine touch to make it. Too little lye and its lardy and greasy(and it spoils), and too much lye and it burns your hands. I might be a guy, but I am tempted to ask her to teach me to make it. I like odd skills like that.

Great topic. Fascinating reading. Did anyone contact snopes about this?


here are some instructions! http://farmgal.tripod.com/lyesoapconcoctions.html

Who is snopes?

now I know what your thinking, it was a neo nazi group...

Nope, I wasn't thinking that.

In fact, AFAIK, Simon Wiesenthal (the famous Nazi hunter) was one of the most forceful critics of the myth that Jews were turned to soap, seeing it as nothing more thn hysteria.

Who is snopes?


www.snopes.com is a great site dealing with urban myths and truths assumed to be myth. check it out, hours of great reading.