NationStates Jolt Archive

link (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/512010029.htm)
An Iranian convert to Christianity was kidnapped last week from his home in
northeastern Iran and stabbed to death, his bleeding body thrown in front of
his home a few hours later. Ghorban Tori, 50, was pastoring an independent
house church of convert Christians in Gonbad-e-Kavus, a town just east of
the Caspian Sea along the Turkmenistan border.

Within hours of the November 22 murder, local secret police arrived at the
martyred pastor’s home, searching for Bibles and other banned Christian
books in the Farsi language. By the end of the following day, the secret
police had also raided the houses of all other known Christian believers in
the city.

According to one informed Iranian source, during the past eight days
representatives of the Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) have
arrested and severely tortured 10 other Christians in several cities,
including Tehran. All the detainees have since been released.

One of the arrested Christians was reportedly interrogated about his
involvement in relief work after Iran’s deadly Bam earthquake in December
2003. Another working with a legal organization defending human rights was
accused of using it as a “cover” for church activities.

In addition, MOIS officials have visited known Christian leaders since
Tori’s murder and have instructed them to warn acquaintances in the
unofficial, Protestant house fellowships that “the government knows what you
are doing, and we will come for you soon.”

A former Muslim of Turkmen descent, Tori had converted to Christianity more
than 10 years ago, while in Turkmenistan.

After he returned to his native Iran in 1998, Tori began to share his new
Christian faith with friends and relatives. Within two years, a small
fellowship of 12 believers was meeting in his home.

But not all welcomed his message; at least one relative attacked Tori,
scarring his face. In the past year he received several threats from Islamic
extremists vowing to kill him if he did not stop sharing his Christian
faith.

Tori is survived by his wife and four children, ages 3 to 23.

He is the fifth Protestant pastor assassinated in Iran by unidentified
killers in the past 11 years. Three of the five were former Muslims, under
Iranian law subject to the death penalty for having committed apostasy.

Tori’s murder came just days after Iran’s new hard-line President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad called an open meeting with the nation’s 30 provincial
governors. During the session, an Iranian source told Compass, Ahmadinejad
declared that the government needed to put a stop to the burgeoning movement
of house churches across Iran.

“I will stop Christianity in this country,” Ahmadinejad reportedly vowed.

“This was apparently a green light from the president of Iran to go out and
start killing Christians,” the source said.

Slurring Non-Muslims

Last week a Zoroastrian representative in the Iranian Parliament protested a
slur against non-Muslims on November 20 by a top aide to Ayatollah Ali
Khamenei, supreme leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

According to the government-run Entekhaab website, in a public speech
Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati told youthful Basijis (members of a volunteer
militia formed to enforce strict Islamic codes) preparing to join suicide
missions that “non-Muslims are sinful animals who roam the earth and engage
in corruption.” Jannati, who is secretary general of the powerful Guardian
Council, is known to be a mentor and close advisor to Ahmadinejad.

Iranian Member of Parliament Kurosh Niknam declared the comment, “an
unprecedented insult to religious minorities.”

Over the past month, Ahmadinejad has conducted a broad shake-up within the
government establishment, replacing hundreds of governors, ambassadors and
senior ministry officials with young and mostly inexperienced Islamists.
Yesterday students at Tehran University protested noisily when a religious
cleric without even a high school diploma was appointed rector of the
nation’s oldest university.

In November, the new director of prisons also transferred a number of
political prisoners of conscience into criminal wards with convicted
murderers and drug dealers. At least one of these political prisoners has
been killed by fellow inmates, sparking the fears of Iranian Christians for
the security of Hamid Pourmand, serving a three-year sentence at Tehran’s
Evin Prison for refusing to renounce his conversion to Christianity.

I find the source a little suspect, but given his recent actions lately and how Islamic governments generally treat their Christian population, it wouldn't surprise me that this was true. Disconserting how these people may get The Bomb, no?

Now come on! Just because they're a murderous, criminal, corrupt, discriminatory and perhaps insane government doesn't mean that they have any less right to have the bomb than France does. To say otherwise is just plain racist. You hate brown people, don't you?

Good for him.

Good for him.
Really Fass? When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay? Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.

Rooting for Iran here! :D
While there's a big deal of issues that's going totally wrong down there, at least they got this one right! :D

Haha, stupid eejits. Look what happened to Rome when it started killing Christians.

Really Fass? When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay? Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.
He's just being his usual faux-obnoxious self. Ignore him and he'll stop it. :D

Really Fass? When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay? Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.

Maybe not gays, but abortionists.

Disconserting how these people may get The Bomb, no?
In the extreme!

Rooting for Iran here! :D
While there's a big deal of issues that's going totally wrong down there, at least they got this one right! :D
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/7814/smileytroutsmack8gs.gif (http://imageshack.us)

This is taken out of context. Yes, he said he was going to stop Christianity, but he wasn't done talking, and added "and make sure everything's alright, and ask if I freshen Christianity's drink."

Wow. Anyone would think he wanted to be invaded by the States.

Rooting for Iran here! :D
While there's a big deal of issues that's going totally wrong down there, at least they got this one right! :D

You're kidding, right?

"Iran's President: 'I will stop Christianity in this country'"

Good! The persecuted church always grows faster. Now all we have to do is wait until the government decays from within. No need to invade ... they'll be the agents of their own destruction. :)

Maybe not gays, but abortionists.
There's a difference between the government executing people on religious grounds and a few criminals taking it upon themselves to do so on religious grounds.

What happens to the executioner who hangs gays in Iran? He gets a paycheck for his trouble. The moron who shoots a doctor in the US gets life in prison. See the difference there?

What happens to the executioner who hangs gays in Iran? He gets a paycheck for his trouble. The moron who shoots a doctor in the US gets life in prison. See the difference there?
Probably not. :(

Does this mean we get to bomb Iran's Islam-Enrichment facilities?

There's a difference between the government executing people on religious grounds and a few criminals taking it upon themselves to do so on religious grounds.

What happens to the executioner who hangs gays in Iran? He gets a paycheck for his trouble. The moron who shoots a doctor in the US gets life in prison. See the difference there?

Yes and I surely didn't want to support the Iranian politics.

Really Fass?

"One religion down, countless to go." :rolleyes:

When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay?

Gay people aren't more important than others when it comes to dying. I feel solidarity with victims of Christianity regardless of sexual preference.

Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.

As the West has shown us, it's not bad to support murderous tyrants when it serves your overall purposes. :rolleyes:

And by the by, if you for even a second think that someone as anti-capital punishment as I would support this, I will be even more disappointed in you than I have become accustomed to.

Why do I get the feeling that the average Iranian in the street shudders whenever thier president open his mouth?

"One religion down, countless to go." :rolleyes:



Gay people aren't more important than others when it comes to dying. I feel solidarity with victims of Christianity regardless of sexual preference.



As the West has shown us, it's not bad to support murderous tyrants when it serves your overall purposes. :rolleyes:

And by the by, if you for even a second think that someone as anti-capital punishment as I would support this, I will be even more disappointed in you than I have become accustomed to.
Aw, have I diappointed you? That's too bad.

The fact is that if I had to pick sides I'd stand with the Christian citizens of Iran, who haven't passed laws that encourage the execution of gays, "immoral" women, and religious minorities rather than with the Muslim government who has so much blood on it's hands.

Aw, have I diappointed you? That's too bad.

Not really. I don't dwell on such insignificance.

The fact is that if I had to pick sides I'd stand with the Christian citizens of Iran, who haven't passed laws that encourage the execution of gays, "immoral" women, and religious minorities rather than with the Muslim government who has so much blood on it's hands.

You may be quick to forget history, and turn a blind eye to what Christianity is doing to Africa, but I'm not. I can oppose Islam and Christianity at the same time.

You may be quick to forget history, and turn a blind eye to what Christianity is doing to Africa, but I'm not. I can oppose Islam and Christianity at the same time.
What's Christianity doing to Africa?

All I know about Christianity today is what it's doing to my country. It's not pretty, but it's not as bad as Iran. I too oppose organized religion, but I'd rather see the murderous sects wiped out first.

Maybe not gays, but abortionists.
Want to give us an example of that?

Are people really serious about supporting this blatant destruction of human rights that's going on in Iran? Remember, Iran also executes people for being gay.

What happens to the executioner who hangs gays in Iran? He gets a paycheck for his trouble. The moron who shoots a doctor in the US gets life in prison. See the difference there?
How do you know he was talking about the US?

Why do I get the feeling that the average Iranian in the street shudders whenever thier president open his mouth?
Maybe they don't; they elected him. Just goes to show how the majority is usually wrong.

Aw, have I diappointed you? That's too bad.

The fact is that if I had to pick sides I'd stand with the Christian citizens of Iran, who haven't passed laws that encourage the execution of gays, "immoral" women, and religious minorities rather than with the Muslim government who has so much blood on it's hands.
Preach it! Though I don't think Fass was serious in his post.

What's Christianity doing to Africa? Givin' them dang lazy negroes food which they'm don't git workin' for!
You may be quick to forget history, and turn a blind eye to what Christianity is doing to Africa, but I'm not. I can oppose Islam and Christianity at the same time. I can oppose... *thinks* extreme secularism without wanting to murder all secularists.

Maybe they don't; they elected him. Just goes to show how the majority is usually wrong.


Good old Democracy, eh?

You may be quick to forget history, and turn a blind eye to what Christianity is doing to Africa, but I'm not. I can oppose Islam and Christianity at the same time.
Your original post, although I think it was a joke, implied support of Islamists against Christians who have done nothing bad to Africa.

I say good luck with stopping christianity. He'll certinly need it. Especially if america notices any natural resources in iran.

You've got to wonder what all the governments who do this feel so threatend by?

The Iranian president has it all wrong. Everybody knows it's the scientologists you really gotta keep an eye on not the christians.

You've got to wonder what all the governments who do this feel so threatend by?
Ideas.

"Iran's President: 'I will stop Christianity in this country'"

Good! The persecuted church always grows faster. Now all we have to do is wait until the government decays from within. No need to invade ... they'll be the agents of their own destruction. :)

Truth. Look what Rome did for the christian movement. :)

Ideas.

What ideas? What ideas are possibly threatening in Christiainity

As the West has shown us, it's not bad to support murderous tyrants when it serves your overall purposes. :rolleyes:

30,000 dead Iraqi civilians whose blood is on the hands of a Christian man who spent months stonewalling a no torture bill can't be wrong.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Anyway, to the OP:

Yes, the source is very questionable, but if it - and the other recent strangeness is true - I will demand an open apology from every Iran basher on these forums (and I know who you are) to the people of Iran when this man is not re-elected. We don't have to invade or bomb ... he's an elected official, not an evil despot.

The Iranian President no more speaks for the people of Iran than George W. Bush speaks for the people of the United States. If you think he does, then explain his popularity polls.

What ideas? What ideas are possibly threatening in Christiainity

Thou shall not kill?

The meek shall inherit the earth?

What ideas? What ideas are possibly threatening in Christiainity
The idea that Shiite Islam isn't the one true faith revealed by god and that it therefore doesn't have all the answers on how to run the affairs of a people might threaten an Islamic theocracy a bit.

Thou shall not kill?

The christians haven't exactly been chained down by this one, have they? ;)

What ideas? What ideas are possibly threatening in Christiainity
You're kidding, right???

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Cry. I'd love to see that. :D

30,000 dead Iraqi civilians whose blood is on the hands of a Christian man who spent months stonewalling a no torture bill can't be wrong.

Bush isn't a real Christian, as his actions prove. At least, that's what you always say about the Islamist suicide bombers.

Christians and jews were living and prospering peacefully in Muslim dominated empires when the rest of the christian empires were in the dark ages. One thing I've noticed lately is that, Muslims don't go about and try to convert people that already belong to a faith unlike the evangelist. Ever since the president of Iran was elected, he's been bashed by western nations, who cares what Europe and North America thinks about him, what I would like to know is, what do the Iranians think about him (considering he was elected by them) and specifically what Iran's immediate neighbours think about him?

Bush isn't a real Christian, as his actions prove. At least, that's what you always say about the Islamist suicide bombers.

And nobody accepts it when I say it either. So .... *shrug*

Bush isn't a real Christian, as his actions prove.
He doesn't seem to be one to me.

And nobody accepts it when I say it either. So .... *shrug*
So you are openly declaring your hypocrisy? What you seem to believe is that you are no way associated with suicide bombers who claim to be Muslim, but you insist that all Christians should be tarnished by the actions of Bush.

So you are openly declaring your hypocrisy? What you seem to believe is that you are no way associated with suicide bombers who claim to be Muslim, but you insist that all Christians should be tarnished by the actions of Bush.

Ummmmmm nooooo ... and I'll tell you the same thing people tell me: Bush *thinks* he's a Christian and until I see public outcry, denouncing him as Christian from major Christian leaders, then I shall choose to believe him.

Major Muslim world leaders, including the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, have declared people like Osama bin-Laden apostate. What've you got?

Christians and jews were living and prospering peacefully in Muslim dominated empires when the rest of the christian empires were in the dark ages. One thing I've noticed lately is that, Muslims don't go about and try to convert people that already belong to a faith unlike the evangelist. Ever since the president of Iran was elected, he's been bashed by western nations, who cares what Europe and North America thinks about him, what I would like to know is, what do the Iranians think about him (considering he was elected by them) and specifically what Iran's immediate neighbours think about him?
Islam is perhaps the most intolerant religion on Earth, a proseletyzing ideology that ruthlessly crushes dissent.

Written by an ex-muslim

from http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/testimonies4.htm

Islam was once a fairly tolerant faith (provided that the conquered people recognized the superiority of Islam and paid their special tax). It has changed. There are Muslim youth gangs in England who now use threats of violence to convert poor kids living in lousy neighborhoods. In places like Nigeria, sharia law is being used to pressure people to abandon their way of life and embrace Islam. Most muslims are normal people who are just making a living, but Islam as a whole isn't free from intolerance and proseletyzing.

He doesn't seem to be one to me.
Well, he says he's accepted Jesus as his savior, and Christianity admits that all men are sinners, so how can you say he's not a Christian?

He doesn't seem to be one to me.
I couldn't care less about Bush's credibility as a Christian. I just wanted to outline Keruvalia's hypocrisy.

Christians and jews were living and prospering peacefully in Muslim dominated empires when the rest of the christian empires were in the dark ages.
The state of relative enlightenment that existed in North Africa during the Middle Ages is now irrelevant.

One thing I've noticed lately is that, Muslims don't go about and try to convert people that already belong to a faith unlike the evangelist.
Not so. Many Muslims are out converting just as Christians are. Which is OK, I think they should be allowed to attempt to gain converts. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

What people are concerned about is in Muslim theocracies like Iran and (formerly) Afghanistan, where the Muslim governments there try to force Allah's will at gunpoint. This sort of thing barely exists in the West.

Ever since the president of Iran was elected, he's been bashed by western nations, who cares what Europe and North America thinks about him, what I would like to know is, what do the Iranians think about him (considering he was elected by them) and specifically what Iran's immediate neighbours think about him?
I've seen many Americans say the exact same things about Bush! Why shouldn't we vocalise our opposition to the policies of foreign leaders when they are wrong? We did it with Bush and we're doing it with this guy.

Major Muslim world leaders, including the Mufti of Saudi Arabia have declared people like Osama bin-Laden apostate. What've you got?
The Church of England.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.

In the world, yes, but last I checked it was a toss up between Deism and Neo-Paganism in the US as fastest growing. I'll have to check, though.

I just wanted to outline Keruvalia's hypocrisy.

But you haven't. There is no hypocrisy here except by those who do not accept that suicide bombers aren't Muslim but do accept that Bush is a Christian.

The Church of England.

Have they issued a public statement that says Bush is not Christian?

Have they issued a public statement that says Bush is not Christian?
No, the CofE are infuriatingly polite. They have expressed their concern about American Christians abusing scripture to justify violent foreign policy.

Also at this point it must be said that Bush is hardly a Christian equivalent to Osama bin Laden. US foreign policy is not dictated by Christianity, nor is America engaged in a Crusade. The reasons are usually rather more pragmatic.

Also at this point it must be said that Bush is hardly a Christian equivalent to Osama bin Laden.

Bin Laden's motives are territorial, not religious in nature either. 3,000 American civilians dead by the orders of one man. 30,000 Iraqi civilians dead by the orders of one man.

I fail to see the lack of comparison.

No, the CofE are infuriatingly polite. They have expressed their concern about American Christians abusing scripture to justify violent foreign policy.

Also at this point it must be said that Bush is hardly a Christian equivalent to Osama bin Laden. US foreign policy is not dictated by Christianity, nor is America engaged in a Crusade. The reasons are usually rather more pragmatic.
Really? because I recall Bush saying he is on a mission from God, and specifically using the word Crusade to define our actions.

You know, most nations that try to actively persecute Christians HAVE ended up falling for one reason or another shortly there after. Should be interesting.

You know, most nations that try to actively persecute Christians HAVE ended up falling for one reason or another shortly there after. Should be interesting.
all nations that once persecuted Jews have lost their status as well...however, I point more towards the natural flow of power over the fact that they pick on Jews and Christians.

However, I'd rather like to see what American Christians say (those who bitch about being persecuted by seculars) say when they realize "hey, allowing other people breathing room isn't nearly as bad as being killed"

Now come on! Just because they're a murderous, criminal, corrupt, discriminatory and perhaps insane government doesn't mean that they have any less right to have the bomb than France does. To say otherwise is just plain racist. You hate brown people, don't you?

A minor point: Iranians (that is, citizens of Iran) are neither uniformly "brown" nor - as a population - any more so than, say, Spaniards. To suggest such would be to overlook the ancestro-phenotypical diversity of this nation.

There are Muslim youth gangs in England who now use threats of violence to convert poor kids living in lousy neighborhoods.

I'd like to see evidence of that. Most of those gangs aren't concerned by anything more than fast cars, drugs, mugging people and alcohol from what i've seen, from what i've seen of those sort of gangsters, theyre not really in any position to know enough about the faith to go about converting, and if they did try causing dignificant trouble, we'd know about it... there'd be more race riots.

A minor point: Iranians (that is, citizens of Iran) are neither uniformly "brown" nor - as a population - any more so than, say, Spaniards. To suggest such would be to overlook the ancestro-phenotypical diversity of this nation.
Pfff. Facts. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.

Bin Laden's motives are territorial, not religious in nature either. 3,000 American civilians dead by the orders of one man. 30,000 Iraqi civilians dead by the orders of one man.

I fail to see the lack of comparison.


What a load of crap. How many civilians were killed by Allied forces and how many were targeted and killed by opposing Muslim sects? The comparison isn't even close.

*Hands Keruvalia another tinfoil hat for his collection*

I'd like to see evidence of that. Most of those gangs aren't concerned by anything more than fast cars, drugs, mugging people and alcohol from what i've seen, from what i've seen of those sort of gangsters, theyre not really in any position to know enough about the faith to go about converting, and if they did try causing dignificant trouble, we'd know about it... there'd be more race riots.
I heard it on the BBC world service news hour a couple of weeks ago. A short google search turned up nothing, but if you feel like killing some time be my guest.

Ummmmmm nooooo ... and I'll tell you the same thing people tell me: Bush *thinks* he's a Christian and until I see public outcry, denouncing him as Christian from major Christian leaders, then I shall choose to believe him.

Major Muslim world leaders, including the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, have declared people like Osama bin-Laden apostate. What've you got?
This argument is weak in the extreme. You need religious officials to declare an individual on the right or wrong side of a religious doctrine in order to decide whether to accept their actions or not? Clearly, not - YOU are the one deciding whether to accept their actions, and you use that as a basis for judgement on whether or not they are properly christian/muslim/whatever.

Both approaches are weak -there isn't a particular canon that determines what is or what isn't [insert religion] anyway -if someone pecieves themselves as the follower of such a faith, they should probably be treated as such. In any event, de-calssification, or classification is mostly meaningless. It is meaningless to declare Osama "not a muslim", or Bush "not a christian" - they must be evaluated individually without referance to other dissimilar groups.

What a load of crap.

Now there's a well thought out, insightful, and intelligent response. You, sir, win this debate!

Both approaches are weak -there isn't a particular canon that determines what is or what isn't [insert religion] anyway -if someone pecieves themselves as the follower of such a faith, they should probably be treated as such.

Actually, there are authorities on the subject. Qur'an and Sunnah are the authority on who/what is Muslim while the Gospel and the Epistles are the authority on who/what is Christian.

I think all of this is incidental to the thread at hand, though.

I may not approve of the methods but atleast someones trying.

Now there's a well thought out, insightful, and intelligent response. You, sir, win this debate!

Why thank you, thank you very much.

*takes a bow*

Isn't George Bush protestant?
That says it all really.

That's what you get from a select group of Christians who just pick what the hell they like out of the scriptures and discard the rest.

Why do I get the feeling that the average Iranian in the street shudders whenever thier president open his mouth?I dont know..

I do get the feeling that the average Mexican in the street laughs whenever il Bushio open his mouth.. and I dont even wanna know why.

We should sponsor a military coup, install Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi's son in power, and revive the Pahlavi dynasty.

Major Muslim world leaders, including the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, have declared people like Osama bin-Laden apostate. What've you got?

Well as granny would have said "Talk is cheap"

It's far easier to sit back and say "Well you know he really isn't a Muslim" while watching his actions go on.....

Have they issued a public statement that says Bush is not Christian?

They have condemned GWB since before Afganistan for being immoral and warmongering &c.

However, they have not said he is not a christian, because according to their official manual he is not, so any such statement would be redundant. They wouldn't bother to say that you are not a christian either.

Now repeat after me...huh?

Isn't George Bush protestant?
That says it all really.

That's what you get from a select group of Christians who just pick what the hell they like out of the scriptures and discard the rest.
um...that could be said for all christians, and most jews who ignore most commandments in the OT. Piercings/tattoo, no pork, no mixing meat and dairy, circumcision, and most of the mitzvahs. Pick one, they aren't followed.

Ah, the many joys of athiesm. I don't have to worry about who is a proper Christian/Muslim/Jew; I laugh at everyone who believes in God equally! Yay!

On topic, allow me to voice my lack of surprise at Iran's leadership saying stupid things. Let us hope it acts with more sanity than it speaks, especially with nukes coming along. At least it isn't as crazy as, say, Fass.

What's Christianity doing to Africa?

Killing it slowly by combatting any sane way to stop the HIV epidemic, is one thing it's doing.

At least it isn't as crazy as, say, Fass.

From your ilk, that comes as a compliment.

I support Iran. Someone has to for once.


This has been a official response by a totalitarian militaristic pagan.

^ I thought that would be funny and point out how I really don't care either way on the issue.

There's a difference between the government executing people on religious grounds and a few criminals taking it upon themselves to do so on religious grounds.

What happens to the executioner who hangs gays in Iran? He gets a paycheck for his trouble. The moron who shoots a doctor in the US gets life in prison. See the difference there?

No, the moron who shoots a doctor in the US flees to France. The French then fight extradition because they'd rather have the fundie shooting up their abortionists than go to America, where he might face the needle.

link (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/512010029.htm)


I find the source a little suspect, but given his recent actions lately and how Islamic governments generally treat their Christian population, it wouldn't surprise me that this was true. Disconserting how these people may get The Bomb, no?
And the moral of the story is that you can be christian if you want, just not a christian Iranian

Of course Saudi's leaders would say that Osama is an apostate. After all, they're very intimately entwined with the American administration, which doesn't like Osama.

Apparently even the Ayatollahs are getting slightly worried over the President's (Iranian one, not the American one) rhetoric.

This is nothing knew, man. Iran has been killing off non-muslims for ages. I'm apalled by the situation certainly (I don't have any favoritism towards Christianity, if anything, I prolly support Islam more), but worse things are going on. Of course, in most of the places where it's going on it isn't supported by the state (and the state supporting it has one of the largest militaries in the world as well as a nuclear weapons program).

*Cheers on underdog!*

link (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/512010029.htm)

Hurray for organised religions! :rolleyes:

Really Fass? When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay? Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.

Get christian fundies in power & you'll have your awnser

Wow. Anyone would think he wanted to be invaded by the States.

What gives the States the authority to invade a foreign country?
Oh right, because god tells Bush so :rolleyes:

People take note: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RELIGIOUS NUTS GAIN POWER

Killing it slowly by combatting any sane way to stop the HIV epidemic, is one thing it's doing.

No, incompetent government is doing that. Example: Thabo "AIDS isn't caused by a virus" Mbeki. Most African rulers would rather spend more on fancy cars, private jets, mansions, and their cronies and family members than on fighting AIDS. In a cesspool of corruption like Africa (where the only country even remotely free of corruption is Botswana, one of only a few countries actually working to fight the disease), saving lives isn't a high priority. Living like a sultan, on the other hand, is.

Iran's President: "I will shock you with how Un-Western I am."

Jesus. Has it occurred to Muslim nations that we don't torture or execute Muslims in western nations? Which, oddly enough, are majority non-Muslim and have been attacked by Muslim terrorists several times. (USA, UK, France, Spain, etc.)

I have only one thing to say on this matter. Fuck Iran.

Thank you. I'll be here 'til Thursday.

What gives the States the authority to invade a foreign country?
Oh right, because god tells Bush so :rolleyes:

People take note: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RELIGIOUS NUTS GAIN POWER

Notice how Bush hasn't executed any Muslims for being Muslim or any gays for being gay, despite the fact that he has no love for either group?

Notice how Bush hasn't executed any Muslims for being Muslim or any gays for being gay, despite the fact that he has no love for either group?

Are you implying he's a religious nutter? :p

The reason being that the biggest part of the USA wouldn't support such a thing, Iran is, however hard to believe it might be, a democracy, the majority seems to think it's ok to kill unbelievers or heretics, kinda reminds me of the mentality of Europe during the times of the Spanish Inquisition.

If the whole of the USA government were fundie Christian, i fear we'd be heading for WWIII (and of to the stoneage we go!)

Really Fass? When's the last time a Christian majority nation executed a couple of teenagers for being gay? Maybe you're rooting for the wrong side on this one.

The constant promoting of hate crimes against gays by the Republican party and its supporters.

The constant promoting of hate crimes against gays by the Republican party and its supporters. In that case, why are they crimes? IE, not supported by the government?

Notice how Bush hasn't executed any Muslims for being Muslim or any gays for being gay, despite the fact that he has no love for either group?

Incitement is just as bad as doing the actual crime.

Incitement is just as bad as doing the actual crime. Show me these quotations inciting hate crimes that Bush has made, then.

Really? because I recall Bush saying he is on a mission from God, and specifically using the word Crusade to define our actions.
He also said that he is not against Islam and that it is a religion of peace. I don't like when he says things like "crusade" either, but they are rare and in general the US government portrays the war on terrorism as secular, which it is. Bin Laden on the other hand is much more overtly religious and he is motivated almost entirely by his religion.

However, I'd rather like to see what American Christians say (those who bitch about being persecuted by seculars) say when they realize "hey, allowing other people breathing room isn't nearly as bad as being killed"
I agree. Just pointing out that I am neither American nor Christian. I consistently oppose persecution of and by religion. I think that is more than most "conservatives" and "liberals" can say.

What a load of crap. How many civilians were killed by Allied forces and how many were targeted and killed by opposing Muslim sects? The comparison isn't even close.
Wow, I think that this is the first Greenlander post ever that is not connected with homosexuality, abortion, school prayer or immigration!

In any case, www.iraqbodycount.net , probably the most authoritive source available, will tell you that c. 10,000 have been killed by American-led forces, c.4,000 killed by insurgents, and c.10,000 by murderers.

Show me these quotations inciting hate crimes that Bush has made, then.

His stance on gay marriage and his outright support for the hate speech that his support base spreads on a regular basis through their church meet ups each Sunday.

His stance on gay marriage and his outright support for the hate speech that his support base spreads on a regular basis through their church meet ups each Sunday. As I said: show me the support for the hate speech. If you do this, I'll gladly change my mind.

Opposing gay marriage does not equal hatred. :headbang: Hate crimes are when you nail homosexuals to a fence/flog them to death, not prevent them from marrying. There's a rather wide difference.

As I said: show me the support for the hate speech. If you do this, I'll gladly change my mind.

Opposing gay marriage does not equal hatred. :headbang: Hate crimes are when you nail homosexuals to a fence/flog them to death, not prevent them from marrying. There's a rather wide difference.

Imposing a law against gay marriage is a hate crime in my eyes.
What effect does it have on anyone else that 2 guys or 2 girls get married?

Wow, talk about a theadjack! Anyhoo, I think we've become so brainwashed by PC that we can't even call a duck a duck any longer, for fear of appearing intolerant. When did we start to tolerate intolerance?
The problem here is is literalist fundamentalism. And it's sure to be deadly and outrageoulsly oppressive in whatever flavor it comes in.

Well, it's legal over here now... That is quite impressive.

Get christian fundies in power & you'll have your awnser
I have no doubt. That doesn't excuse Muslim fundies.

What gives the States the authority to invade a foreign country?
Oh right, because god tells Bush so :rolleyes:

People take note: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN RELIGIOUS NUTS GAIN POWER
You don't really believe that do you? Iraq didn't get invaded because Bush thinks God told him so. Bush only says that to impress the Evangelistas whose votes he needs.

The constant promoting of hate crimes against gays by the Republican party and its supporters.
While I find it deplorable, it's still not the same as actually executing gay people, or ignoring crimes against them. Matthew Shepard's murderers were punished, right?

Incitement is just as bad as doing the actual crime.
Surely you don't believe this. Words are not the same as actions.

Imposing a law against gay marriage is a hate crime in my eyes.
What effect does it have on anyone else that 2 guys or 2 girls get married?
Stop threadjacking. I support gay marraige but can we keep perspective, please? The President of America thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married. The President of Iran thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to live. Not the same thing.

I have no doubt. That doesn't excuse Muslim fundies.

I was just illustrating how they both are the same, only difference is that the mulim fundies have power atm.

You don't really believe that do you? Iraq didn't get invaded because Bush thinks God told him so. Bush only says that to impress the Evangelistas whose votes he needs.

No, i was being sarcastic, thought it was pretty obvious

Stop threadjacking. I support gay marraige but can we keep perspective, please? The President of America thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married. The President of Iran thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to live. Not the same thing.

The same thing, just pushed to a different level.

Iran's president is a peice of shit who needs to be assassinated. It seems all he wants to do is start World War III.

The constant promoting of hate crimes against gays by the Republican party and its supporters.

Proof? When has Bush promoted this? Is it during his weekly radio address?


"You must oppress the pole smokers!"-GWB 6/6/05

The United States' president is a peice of shit who needs to be assassinated. It seems all he wants to do is start World War III.

There. Much more accurate. :p

His stance on gay marriage and his outright support for the hate speech that his support base spreads on a regular basis through their church meet ups each Sunday.

What HATE SPEECH?

Imposing a law against gay marriage is a hate crime in my eyes.
What effect does it have on anyone else that 2 guys or 2 girls get married?

He doesn't impose laws dumbo. Do you know how a law is passed in the US?


Douche par excellence.

Stop threadjacking. I support gay marraige but can we keep perspective, please? The President of America thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married. The President of Iran thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to live. Not the same thing.

Both seek the removal of gays from society, atleast with the president of Iran, he is a little more honest with his intentions vs GWB slowly but surely rolling back of gay rights to the point that we'll be rounded up, pushed into labour camps or mental homes and force fed drugs until we die a slow and misserable death.

So Republicans, why don't you grow some balls and come out and admit it; you hate us gays and nothing would make you happier than seeing us being systematically murdered off one by one.

So Republicans, why don't you grow some balls and come out and admit it; you hate us gays and nothing would make you happier than seeing us being systematically murdered off one by one.

I don't hate you or any other group. Are you for real?


There's braces for your teeth and a bus to Dollywood if you'll shut up.

I don't hate you or any other group. Are you for real?

Bull crap, you Republicans were simultaneously having an orgasm and drooling at the same time when GWB announced his support for a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, you then had a volley of muscle jerks when you saw GWB get all cosey with some of the most gay-hating people in America.

Bull crap, you Republicans were simultaneously having an orgasm and drooling at the same time when GWB announced his support for a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, you then had a volley of muscle jerks when you saw GWB get all cosey with some of the most gay-hating people in America.

I wouldn't say that. It simply comes from a belief that marriage has never, ever changed, and that changing it will lead to the downfall of society. Such beliefs are based out of ignorance, not hatred (marriage has changed a lot in the past, and it hasn't had much detrimental effects). Now, those supporting a ban on civil unions as well as marriage are definietly homophobic, though the polls I've seen indicate that about 2/3rds of the country have no problem with civil unions (compared to the 1/3rd that have no problem with marriages).

Don't make us start Crusading again...
Iran :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper:

From your ilk, that comes as a compliment.

Completely off topic but is Monty Python and the Holy Grail still banned in Sweden? They banned for the credit sequence

Bull crap, you Republicans were simultaneously having an orgasm and drooling at the same time when GWB announced his support for a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, you then had a volley of muscle jerks when you saw GWB get all cosey with some of the most gay-hating people in America.

You do realize that it is hyperbolic, fallacious bullshit like this that essentially degrades not only the decorum of a discussion, but also the respect and reasonable consideration allotted to your image by your fellow members?

Or to phrase it differently, you are acting like a douche-bag. It isn't going to help you.

Bull crap, you Republicans were simultaneously having an orgasm and drooling at the same time when GWB announced his support for a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, you then had a volley of muscle jerks when you saw GWB get all cosey with some of the most gay-hating people in America.

And you accuse Republicans of hate speech...

And you accuse Republicans of hate speech...

Yeah, no shit huh?

He doesn't impose laws dumbo. Do you know how a law is passed in the US?

Douche par excellence.

Imposing? Yes, he's supportive of said law proposal isn't he?

Completely off topic but is Monty Python and the Holy Grail still banned in Sweden? They banned for the credit sequence

They banned Monty Python?!

How about we just glass the middle east?

How about we just glass the middle east?

How about we just glass yo mama?

Yeah, no shit huh?
A rather hypocritic tactic of the extremes in any debate it seems

Now come on! Just because they're a murderous, criminal, corrupt, discriminatory and perhaps insane government doesn't mean that they have any less right to have the bomb than France does. To say otherwise is just plain racist. You hate brown people, don't you?


LMAO!!!

Come on guys, can't we just settle this over a pint? It amazes me that most of the violence done in the name of religion has been done by Christians, Muslims, & Jews--to each other. It amazes me because these are the religions with the most in common . . .

What? You're kidding, right? Oh, fo' the luva . . .

Since I have just been informed that Muslims are not allowed to settle anything over a pint, I choose Friar Tuck's solution: "Fine--you talk, I'll drink."