NationStates Jolt Archive

In the UK has been some debate (in the newspapers at any rate) over the recent film adaption of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The article which began the debate was in the Guardian, written by Polly Toynbee:

(article: http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/childrenandteens/story/0,,1657756,00.html#article_continue)

But adults who wince at the worst elements of Christian belief may need a sickbag handy for the most religiose scenes

Lewis said he hoped the book would soften-up religious reflexes and "make it easier for children to accept Christianity when they met it later in life". Holiness drenches the Chronicles. When, in the book, the children first hear someone say, mysteriously, "Aslan is on the move", he writes: "Now a very curious thing happened. None of the children knew who Aslan was any more than you do; but the moment the Beaver had spoken these words everyone felt quite different. Perhaps it has sometimes happened to you in a dream that someone says something which you don't understand but in the dream it feels as if it had enormous meaning ..." So Lewis weaves his dreams to invade children's minds with Christian iconography that is part fairytale wonder and joy - but heavily laden with guilt, blame, sacrifice and a suffering that is dark with emotional sadism.

Incidentally, Narnia and its author aren't the only things Toynbee decides to criticise in her rant: the Republican Party and JRR Tolkien are also treated to some razor edged comments:

Why? Because here in Narnia is the perfect Republican, muscular Christianity for America - that warped, distorted neo-fascist strain that thinks might is proof of right

Tolkien hated Narnia: the two dons may have shared the same love of unquestioning feudal power, with worlds of obedient plebs and inferior folk eager to bend at the knee to any passing superior white persons - even children; both their fantasy worlds and their Christianity assumes that rigid hierarchy of power - lord of lords, king of kings, prince of peace to be worshipped and adored.

So what do you think? Would you allow your children to read/see Narnia, considering the above article?

Having only recently seen the film, I cannot say I agree with the hysterical hack. The imagery presented in the film is not overt - indeed apart the resurrection of the lion and the references to "sons of Adam, daughters of Eve", most of the film was no more religious than Harry Potter. Children (the group who are supposedly at risk from this film) would be entirely bewildered if one tried to suggest that the world of Narnia was meant to be the world of Christ - the allegory is at best fleeting, even when placed before the eyes of an adult.

So what do you think? Would you allow your children to read/see Narnia, considering the above article?

I always objected to the morality the book had - especially how the "poor misguided dwarfs" could never be happy since they did not embrace Aslan without question and how "non-christian" education was presented as being "useless".

However, I have yet to meet a child who actually noticed these things and started to live their life accordingly. And since the story was extremely well written: go right ahead. It is in my bookcase anyway ;)

I think it's all a cynical marketing ploy to increase awareness of a shit movie based on a shit book. But that's just me. :rolleyes:

If you didn't know Narnia was Christian mythology dressed up in fantasy then you never actually heard anything about C.S. Lewis did you?

Of course the perverted 'religious right' can get a bit of a bashing too, after all, they make a great representative sample of Christianity, just like Al'Quai'eda do of Islam...

I had no trouble letting my children read either Tolkein or Lewis. Or seeing the movies. I happen to believe that if violence is done on behalf of "right", it's a good thing.

Meh!

He failed in his attempt as I read the books as a kid and never made the connection.

So, if the religious people don't want thier kids to watch Harry Potter because it attacks thier values, then they are idiots and trying to shelter or brainwash thier kids to be just like them..................but if the non-religious don't want thier kids to watch a movie because it has Christian undertones then that's okay:confused:

If I got all knotched up everytime christian imagery or symbolism was used in books and films I'd be left balled up in a corner, twitching.

I saw the cartoon as a kid and still turned out atheist, and didn't get all worked up watching Cool Hand Luke. I wouldn't mind my kid reading the book or the watching either movie, it's got Lions, Witches and Wardrobes in it. I think fostering the kids imagination trumps clenching everytime something religious pops up. Hopefully the kid will grow into a person capable of thier own decisions and the more they've been exposed to the better informed the kid will be.

Nonsense; Lewis made no bones about the mythology he created. It's about as much "subversion" as Star Wars is.

the thing about narnia is you have to remember how long ago it was written when u think about the morals and all that-any way its not as if lewis is trying to force it in our faces- he hardly asked it to be made into a film did he?

So, if the religious people don't want thier kids to watch Harry Potter because it attacks thier values, then they are idiots and trying to shelter or brainwash thier kids to be just like them..................but if the non-religious don't want thier kids to watch a movie because it has Christian undertones then that's okay:confused:
No; the ones who say that about religious people are brainwashed.

I think it's all a cynical marketing ploy to increase awareness of a shit movie based on a shit book. But that's just me. :rolleyes:

Spot on.

So, if the religious people don't want thier kids to watch Harry Potter because it attacks thier values, then they are idiots and trying to shelter or brainwash thier kids to be just like them..................but if the non-religious don't want thier kids to watch a movie because it has Christian undertones then that's okay:confused:

Poeple who don't want their children to watch a movie for that reason are silly. And apparantly afraid the child will disagree with their morals.

Still doesn't mean I have to *like* them. But same is true from a Christian and Potter - though I do wonder where the problem in Potter lies.

I saw the cartoon as a kid and still turned out atheist, and didn't get all worked up watching Cool Hand Luke. I wouldn't mind my kid reading the book or the watching either movie, it's got Lions, Witches and Wardrobes in it. I think fostering the kids imagination trumps clenching everytime something religious pops up. Hopefully the kid will grow into a person capable of thier own decisions and the more they've been exposed to the better informed the kid will be.

thank you. I try to expose my kids to as many different viewpoints as I can. I want them to learn how to think, not what to think. My goal is to raise them to be adults that can make decisions for themselves, not mini copies of me. ;)

I had no trouble letting my children read either Tolkein or Lewis. Or seeing the movies. I happen to believe that if violence is done on behalf of "right", it's a good thing.

I don't think the complaints are about the use of violence, they're about the way heirarchy goes unquestioned, stupid underlings who are willing to do whatever some higher-up says.

Poeple who don't want their children to watch a movie for that reason are silly. And apparantly afraid the child will disagree with their morals.
I agree.

Meh!

He failed in his attempt as I read the books as a kid and never made the connection.
Ditto. As with all the fantasy books I read, I figured whatever spirituality was written into the book was just that...fantasy. I mean...I don't go around worshipping UL because I read the Belgariad...

I don't the complaints are about the use of violence, they're about the way heirarchy goes unquestioned, stupid underlings who are willing to do whatever some higher-up says.
Kind of like real life, huh?:D

Ditto. As with all the fantasy books I read, I figured whatever spirituality was written into the book was just that...fantasy. I mean...I don't go around worshipping UL because I read the Belgariad...
...or Olympian gods because I read Hercules.

...or Olympian gods because I read Hercules.
I mean...is it just me that these religious debates seem more polarised and outrageous on both sides? Or am I just noticing it as I get older? Was it always like this?

I don't the complaints are about the use of violence, they're about the way heirarchy goes unquestioned, stupid underlings who are willing to do whatever some higher-up says.
In real life, most hierarchies go unquestioned.

And some people in the books DO question authority. It's just a matter of which authority they wish to choose to defy.

I don't the complaints are about the use of violence, they're about the way heirarchy goes unquestioned, stupid underlings who are willing to do whatever some higher-up says.
Wouldn't this be true of literature up to the middle of the 20th century, though?

That is the single greatest endorsement for the movie I've ever seen.

That entire article tells me that the reason I was hesitant to take any kids to the movie did not materialize. I was afraid that some of the C.S.Lewis Christian analogy magic might have been lost by transferring the story to celluloid. But it must all still be there, I'm telling all the parents at the school to take all their kids there tonight! :D

Wouldn't this be true of literature up to the middle of the 20th century, though?

Yes, a significant portion of it (although certainly not all). However Tolkein and Lewis romanticise the idea more.

(not my arguement, just one I've heard used)

ALL of CS Lewis' books, not just the Narnia series, have strong Christian Imagery, because Lewis himself was a strongly-believing Christian. To ignore that in the movie version would have been to wipe away so much of the book's relevance and philosophical resonance that a flop would be guaranteed, a movie with no soul (think Independence Day).

And why shouldn't a movie or book have a strong Christian theme? Are we to deny that the majority of us are believers? That would make the Atheists among us (such as myself) guilty of what many Christians in the US claim - that we are oppresing their beliefs.

Something like this should be what parents use to teach their children about religion and morality, and comparative belief - not an excuse for yet another ban.

I mean...is it just me that these religious debates seem more polarised and outrageous on both sides? Or am I just noticing it as I get older? Was it always like this?
As a participant, I think they have gotten less polarized as both sides become more informed, and hence more clever, about the arguments of the other.

But maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, on NS board.

So, if the religious people don't want thier kids to watch Harry Potter because it attacks thier values, then they are idiots and trying to shelter or brainwash thier kids to be just like them..................

The thing about the whole Harry Potter discussion is that no one has ever come up with an explanation of exactly how Harry Potter attacks anything even remotely having to do with Christian values. The best argument I've heard is, "There's magic in it and magic is bad." Of course, if that were the case, Narnia would be banned by Christian fundamentalists as well.....

but if the non-religious don't want thier kids to watch a movie because it has Christian undertones then that's okay:confused:

No, it's just as silly - and done for the same reasons. "OH NOES! MY CHILD MIGHT END UP CONSIDERING BEING SOMETHING OTHER THAN A MINI-ME! WHATEVER WILL I DO!?!??!!"

I mean...it's not like we're talking about the Passion of the Christ here. Which reminds me...it's been a while since I last watched Jesus of Nazareth...my absolute favourite depiction of Jesus' life. Yeah, that's right. I'm an atheist. But I think the story of Jesus is as cool as Ghandi's.

As a participant, I think they have gotten less polarized as both sides become more informed, and hence more clever, about the arguments of the other.

But maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, on NS board.I mean in RL...I expect things here to be extremish. But then again...I don't actually hear any of these stories in my regular day to day existence...or if I do, I don't pay them any heed.

I mean...it's not like we're talking about the Passion of the Christ here. Which reminds me...it's been a while since I last watched Jesus of Nazareth...my absolute favourite depiction of Jesus' life. Yeah, that's right. I'm an atheist. But I think the story of Jesus is as cool as Ghandi's.
Well, I thought the end of the Gandhi movie was much funnier. It's one of the few impressions that I can do accurately.

I've watched and enjoyed Christian themed movies before despite the fact that I'm an atheist. If Narnia is a good movie, I have no problem with anyone watching it. If it's a shit movie, I have a problem with anyone watching it because buying tickets to bad movies and buying the DVDs or merchandise encourages the production of more lousy flicks.

The thing about the whole Harry Potter discussion is that no one has ever come up with an explanation of exactly how Harry Potter attacks anything even remotely having to do with Christian values. The best argument I've heard is, "There's magic in it and magic is bad." Of course, if that were the case, Narnia would be banned by Christian fundamentalists as well.....
hey, I personally have nothing against Harry Potter, I know people who do though and I asked them about Narnia, and they said "the difference is Harry can save himself and the children need the Lion" which almost made sense until they said "and my kids aren't going to be able to pick up that little difference so I have to stop them from watching Harry Potter" and then I cringed, if your kids aren't smart enough to tell the difference then why worry about what they watch at all? She seems like the type of parent that I don't want to be. She won't even let her kids come to my house because we watch "violent movies" (like Godzilla vs. King Kong, and Star Wars)


No, it's just as silly - and done for the same reasons. "OH NOES! MY CHILD MIGHT END UP CONSIDERING BEING SOMETHING OTHER THAN A MINI-ME! WHATEVER WILL I DO!?!??!!"
somehow I knew you would understand my reason for the parallel. ;)

I mean in RL...I expect things here to be extremish. But then again...I don't actually hear any of these stories in my regular day to day existence...or if I do, I don't pay them any heed.
Eeks. No one I know in real life EVER discusses religion.

Meh!

He failed in his attempt as I read the books as a kid and never made the connection.
Same

And now I start to understand why the books were "shoved" down our throats in my catholic elementary school

But ehhh whatever I still eneded up atheist/agnostic even though I liked the books:p

What I find interesting about the article is its characterization of Christianity as some sort of vile ideology that involves baby-eating and has no redeeming qualities or values whatsoever.

What I find interesting about the article is its characterization of Christianity as some sort of vile ideology that involves baby-eating and has no redeeming qualities or values whatsoever.

And that isn't true?

I mean in RL...I expect things here to be extremish. But then again...I don't actually hear any of these stories in my regular day to day existence...or if I do, I don't pay them any heed.
A lot of it is coming from artificially created one-side arguements, the best example being 'the war on christmas.' A bunch of people are being forced to explain why they hate christmas when they don't and have said no such thing. But if it's said enough times it starts to look real, and eventually some people will get irratated enough to start going, "You know what? Fine-fuck Christmas."

But in order for that to work you have to jump up and down and scream like your toe got slammed in the door for a really long time so no one notices that the person your yelling at was just reading a book.

Same

And now I start to understand why the books were "shoved" down our throats in my catholic elementary school

But ehhh whatever I still eneded up atheist/agnostic even though I liked the books:p

Would it be bad form to take that in a differnt direction? :p

And that isn't true?
No. We all know that it is, in fact, godless communism which encourages baby eating. The kind of godless communism peddled in Harry Potter. :rolleyes:

"Christian Imagery in Narnia subverting children?"

Oh, for crying out loud! What next, revert to finding Christians under every bed? [ major eye-roll ] :rolleyes:

Eeks. No one I know in real life EVER discusses religion.
I think the last time I heard religion being discussed in real life was about four years ago in a French restaurant, when two friends of a friend launched into this very strange lecture about how mental disease was actual demonic possession.

I live in the most bible-thumping town I've ever seen, and I don't hear people discussing religion. They may discuss things that are influenced by their religious beliefs...a while back it was gay marriage...but people aren't trying to get books or movies banned here, so I sometimes feel that these 'extreme' religious issues are much less in the forefront of people's minds than we are led to believe by the media.

hey, I personally have nothing against Harry Potter, I know people who do though and I asked them about Narnia, and they said "the difference is Harry can save himself and the children need the Lion"

Wow, it goes to show how much they've actually looked into the story. Harry can't save himself. He needs all sorts of help. And most of all, he needs love. The driving force behind good conquering evil in the books (and movies) is always love. When it comes right down to it, that's a Christian theme. Doesn't Christ teach us that the way to overcome evil is to love? Didn't Christ do what He did out of love?

In the case of Narnia, doesn't Aslan do what he does out of love? Hmmmm....

hehe

which almost made sense until they said "and my kids aren't going to be able to pick up that little difference so I have to stop them from watching Harry Potter" and then I cringed, if your kids aren't smart enough to tell the difference then why worry about what they watch at all?

Oh dear. It sounds like laziness to me. If she wants to make sure your kids pick up on the differences between two themes or movies, shouldn't she, you know, talk to them about it? LOL A lot of kids aren't going to pick up on most of the Christian themes in Narnia either. If parents want them to learn a religous lesson from the movie, then parents should set aside the time to sit down and talk to them about it. Have a discussion about the parallels between the story and the Christ story. Why do people want movies and TV to raise their children for them?

somehow I knew you would understand my reason for the parallel. ;)

But of course! =)

Same

And now I start to understand why the books were "shoved" down our throats in my catholic elementary school

But ehhh whatever I still eneded up atheist/agnostic even though I liked the books:p
And, from the article, "The president's brother, Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, is organising a scheme for every child in his state to read the book."

Eeks. No one I know in real life EVER discusses religion.

I do occaisonally but I don't tend to start the discussion.. If somebody else does though I feel that I'm free to argue my view.

Would it be bad form to take that in a differnt direction? :p
Lol no cause in my case also true:p

There was a lot of twisted crap in the movie to support Christian idealism. but than again Harry Potter just gets plain twisted. Why care it's just make believe and it's only presented as such. Not only that but Pat Robertson hasn't endorsed the movie so it can't be that bad.

And, from the article, "The president's brother, Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, is organising a scheme for every child in his state to read the book."

Do picture books count?

Not only that but Pat Robertson hasn't endorsed the movie so it can't be that bad.

Pat probably didn't like the part where the Jesus-figure gets shaved.

... Pat Robertson hasn't endorsed the movie so it can't be that bad.
ROFLMAO!!!! Good one! :D

<snip>
I just got done taking an English class devoted to C. S. Lewis, and one of the points that our teacher wanted to make was that Lewis himself would not have a problem with Harry Potter. A lot of his books were of the same style: trying to make a point through fantastic imagery so that kids could understand it without having a Ph.D. in philosophy.

Do picture books count?
Sure, why not?

The myth delivered by a visual image can have many times the impact of a myth delivered by an oral one.

The Chronicles of Narnia (the first three books usually) are approved for novel studies in schools here in Alberta...I didn't read them at school, but one of my brothers did. To be honest, I only found out about CS Lewis' religious beliefs much later on in life, and neither my brother or I noticed any such thing in those books. But then again, we'd been reading tonnes of fantasy, with all sorts of religions and gods and magic and so on...why would Narnia stand out as anything different?

Wow, it goes to show how much they've actually looked into the story. Harry can't save himself. He needs all sorts of help. And most of all, he needs love. The driving force behind good conquering evil in the books (and movies) is always love. When it comes right down to it, that's a Christian theme. Doesn't Christ teach us that the way to overcome evil is to love? Didn't Christ do what He did out of love?

In the case of Narnia, doesn't Aslan do what he does out of love? Hmmmm....
yeah, my kids watch the Harry Potter movies, we talked about them, just like I talk to them about everything they see on TV or at the movies. My 4 year old decided that the main theme was that you need to be a friend to people even if they are different, not to judge people by what you think about them before you get to know them, and that if your family sucks then you should make a new family from people who love you for who you are.

I thought she got a lot out of it (considering she is only 4) The 2 year old liked that the girl was smart ;)





Oh dear. It sounds like laziness to me. If she wants to make sure your kids pick up on the differences between two themes or movies, shouldn't she, you know, talk to them about it? LOL A lot of kids aren't going to pick up on most of the Christian themes in Narnia either. If parents want them to learn a religous lesson from the movie, then parents should set aside the time to sit down and talk to them about it. Have a discussion about the parallels between the story and the Christ story. Why do people want movies and TV to raise their children for them?
yeah, I think that's what behind all this "game ratings" stuff too, parents today are just lazy, they don't want to take the time to figure out what's best for thier kids, or even figure out who thier kids are. It's really sad, you see it on TV all the time "she was just the sweetest kid and then we found out that she was on drugs, we had no clue" believe me there were clues, kids don't go from angel to drug addict without some things about them changing.

sorry to get off topic :(

i consider myself to be well read but i never "got" the christian imagery when i was younger. I found it a rollicking good read if a little light on exactly what happened. As far as I am concerned, a little bit of everything never does anyone any harm and leads to questioning behaviour which can only be good for society. My mother and father brought me up to be like this and I ended up an atheist because i read around and thought about stuff and looked at evidence and all that and came to my own conclusions

I am actually rather looking forwards to watching it. The visuals will be fab on the big screen from what I have seen so far on the trailers.

And that isn't true?

'Fraid not. There were rumors about the very early Christian church that the Eucharist involved actually eating a baby covered in flour to look like bread (huh? LOL), but those were based on misunderstanding and some crazy people who wanted something to persecute.


Eeks. No one I know in real life EVER discusses religion.

Really? Weird. My boyfriend is an atheist and we still end up discussing religion quite a bit. But then again, as my friend told me her boyfriend labeled us as a couple who, "like to discuss", maybe its just us. hehe

Olara]
I just got done taking an English class devoted to C. S. Lewis,

Fun! I took a theology class once about Lewis. We didn't read anything from Narnia, but we did read some biographical material that went into it.

and one of the points that our teacher wanted to make was that Lewis himself would not have a problem with Harry Potter. A lot of his books were of the same style: trying to make a point through fantastic imagery so that kids could understand it without having a Ph.D. in philosophy.

I don't think he would have had a problem with it at all, any more than he had a problem with Tolkien's mythology (although Tolkien didn't like his at all). In fact, he might have pointed out that people need to start focusing on their own spirituality, instead of looking for it to be preached at them in every book/movie/etc.

Never liked it... it's just sickening Christian propaganda wrapped in a poor fantasy story :rolleyes:

Never liked it... it's just sickening Christian propaganda wrapped in a poor fantasy story :rolleyes:
What, exactly, is sickening about Christianity? Are there absolutely no redeeming qualities or ideas in Christianity whatsoever? Has it amounted to absolutely no good at any time ever?

Never liked it... it's just sickening Christian propaganda wrapped in a poor fantasy story :rolleyes: If I decided to write a story involving a hero who was stronger than the gods and eventually got cut down by one weakness, would I be guilty of peddling Greek propaganda?

Strange how anything with either an atheist or a Christian theme is suddenly "propaganda". Calm down, people.

What, exactly, is sickening about Christianity? Are there absolutely no redeeming qualities or ideas in Christianity whatsoever? Has it amounted to absolutely no good at any time ever?
Not to hear some people talk. Sigh.

It seems the story is representative only of a section of Christianity. An interesting bit from the article:
Over the years, others have had uneasy doubts about the Narnian brand of Christianity. Christ should surely be no lion (let alone with the orotund voice of Liam Neeson). He was the lamb, representing the meek of the earth, weak, poor and refusing to fight. Philip Pullman - he of the marvellously secular trilogy His Dark Materials - has called Narnia "one of the most ugly, poisonous things I have ever read".

Why? Because here in Narnia is the perfect Republican, muscular Christianity for America - that warped, distorted neo-fascist strain that thinks might is proof of right. I once heard the famous preacher Norman Vincent Peale in New York expound a sermon that reassured his wealthy congregation that they were made rich by God because they deserved it. The godly will reap earthly reward because God is on the side of the strong. This appears to be CS Lewis's view, too. In the battle at the end of the film, visually a great epic treat, the child crusaders are crowned kings and queens for no particular reason. Intellectually, the poor do not inherit Lewis's earth.
(I've never read the books.)

I would NEVER, under ANY circumstances, allow MY children anywhere NEAR a Polly Toynbee article in the Guardian newspaper.

If I myself had the misfortune to read such a piece (so I could, say, bitch about it smugly), I would need a sickbag handy for the more retchworthy, heaving scenes of middleclass self hatred and petulant whining, and the wincingly awful smarming selfsatisfction.

:sniper: thank you. I try to expose my kids to as many different viewpoints as I can. I want them to learn how to think, not what to think. My goal is to raise them to be adults that can make decisions for themselves, not mini copies of me. ;)


I agree with this statement. I think children should be introduce to all view points and all different systems of morality. This includes both Christian and non-Christian. If you are going to not see the movies or read the books because they have Christian view points,(yes Lewis was a Christian and the books are a religious allogory there is no disputing that.)then you are just as ignorant as a fundimentalist who will not watch Harry Potter

Please excuse any spelling errors

Greg

I think talking about popular media such as movies being used to 'subvert' children is a little silly.

It's my opinion that in a sound healthy family, the children cannot be hurt by exposure to other ideas, religious, ways of thinking or ways of life. If anything, learning about the endless variety of human culture is good for children.

Narnia is no way an exception to my general theory here -- while I personally choose not to read the books (and won't see the film) because I am not interested in Christian allegory, I am perfectly comfortable with my daughter seeing them --- my husband is in the process of reading the whole series to her right now - I think they just finished 'Prince Caspian'. She doesn't notice or understand the allegory, and if at some point she does - we'll talk about it.

I sort of think that the reason people can find films and books so threatening to their kids is because they are worried about their parenting skills -- being uncomfortable about the quality of parenting and leadership they are providing, maybe they want to push the responsibility onto outside influences. *shrugs* Who knows.

Elicere

Well, when I was but a wee laddie I read all of the Narnia books and enjoyed them very much, a bit before that my parents started taking me to church. It has been a few years and I am right now totaly atheist, with a firm belief in science.

I do not however, hate or even dislike any other religion. Any two-thousand year old carpenter that can summon up and multi-billion person religion arround him deserves respect, not worship, but repsect. I respect anything that can draw so many fervent and loyal followers, however they do it.

I tend to favor Islam however, and if I did not know anything about the universe, science and the world, I would be Islamic.

I don't think he would have had a problem with it at all, any more than he had a problem with Tolkien's mythology (although Tolkien didn't like his at all). In fact, he might have pointed out that people need to start focusing on their own spirituality, instead of looking for it to be preached at them in every book/movie/etc.
As I understand it, Tolkien didn't like LWW because he thought it was too messy. When you read how in-depth the Ring trilogy is and then compare it, it's easy to see why Tolkien thought so. Characters just kind of pop out of nowhere with little or no background. Father Christmas makes an appearance for all of a few minutes and then leaves never to be seen again. But I guess when you write for kids, you don't have to make the story as involved as Tolkien did.

I tend to favor Islam however, and if I did not know anything about the universe, science and the world, I would be Islamic. Islam encourages science and learning. :)

http://blog.johnjosephbachir.org/?p=209
Is it just me, or are people's fun centres being removed? Why do they have to take the whole thing so bloody seriously, like it's a threat to the security of the state or something? Perhaps there's something wrong with a story about self-sacrifice?

EDIT: I wish that Guardian article would at least show a little consistency. First she complains about the fact that the children bear unfair responsibility for Aslan's death, and then later on she says "His divine presence is a way to avoid humans taking responsibility".:rolleyes:

What, exactly, is sickening about Christianity? Are there absolutely no redeeming qualities or ideas in Christianity whatsoever? Has it amounted to absolutely no good at any time ever?

I think he meant the propaganda is sickening.

I think he meant the propaganda is sickening.

I wouldn't be so sure I think he might have very well found fualt in Christianity himself.

It seems the story is representative only of a section of Christianity. An interesting bit from the article:

(I've never read the books.)

Well, if you had, you'd know how silly all of that is. The children were crowned, not because they were rich (they weren't, until they were crowned), but because they were to inherit the kingdom once evil was defeated. The only time there is ever poverty of any sort evident in Narnia is when evil is in power.

As for the problem with the lion being strong and powerful, I don't see the parallels they are trying to draw. Christ was strong and powerful, but in a humble way. He had no problem calling out those who were doing wrong, even when it put him in harm's way. In a way, Christ was both a lion and a sheep - strong and powerful, yet meek and humble - loving, yet demanding. Christ could have avoided crucifixion at any time, yet allowed himself to be tortured, ridiculed, and killed.

In the book, Aslan is humble. You hardly ever see him do anything violent or flaunt his power. He asks others to forgive Edmund's betrayal and willingly takes the punishment meant for Edmund. Does this sound like a "might makes right" type of character?

I think he meant the propaganda is sickening. It's funny how many of the people complaining about teh 3v1l N4rn14 pr0p4g4nd4z0rz welcome the (I quote) "marvellously secular" Dark Materials trilogy (which I don't have a problem with its propaganda). Double standards, eh?

Olara']As I understand it, Tolkien didn't like LWW because he thought it was too messy. When you read how in-depth the Ring trilogy is and then compare it, it's easy to see why Tolkien thought so. Characters just kind of pop out of nowhere with little or no background. Father Christmas makes an appearance for all of a few minutes and then leaves never to be seen again. But I guess when you write for kids, you don't have to make the story as involved as Tolkien did.

Most of his criticism was of the inconsistencies in Narnia. When you're a guy who even writes a language for your mythical race of beings, you don't exactly take kindly to inconsistencies. He also, from what I have read, took issue with the purpose of Narnia - as a fantasy world created soley for Christian allegory.

Eh, I never could get into the Narnia books, though I tried and tried. Hrm, that might be one of the first outward signs in my childhood of my Paganism.
The way I see it, children + reading = good.
And I highly doubt that most children didn't even pick up on the religious tones nor the history of CS Lewis before this movie came out.

Elgesh']I would NEVER, under ANY circumstances, allow MY children anywhere NEAR a Polly Toynbee article in the Guardian newspaper.

If I myself had the misfortune to read such a piece (so I could, say, bitch about it smugly), I would need a sickbag handy for the more retchworthy, heaving scenes of middleclass self hatred and petulant whining, and the wincingly awful smarming selfsatisfction.

Whilst I may disagree with not allowing your children to get as wide and varied education as possible, i do think that this particular article is a big loads of b******ks*. That said, you've got to read the crap to form your own opinion.


*I say this mainly as her accusation of

Tolkien hated Narnia: the two dons may have shared the same love of unquestioning feudal power, with worlds of obedient plebs and inferior folk eager to bend at the knee to any passing superior white persons - even children; both their fantasy worlds and their Christianity assumes that rigid hierarchy of power - lord of lords, king of kings, prince of peace to be worshipped and adored.

She is obviously oblivious to the fact that in LOTR Aragorn has to EARN his place as King, despite it being ear marked for him before hand. He is also initially reluctant to take it.

Secondly, there is a very good reason why it is in the FANTASY section. She also seems oblivious to the fact that such regiemes have existed throughout human history, whether white, asian, black or otherwise.

In conclusion, she may be a complete moron, but never-the-less, don't stop your kids from reading stuff like that. Allow them to form their own opinions, if nothing else, so that they can learn to make their own decisions.

I don't mind the Christian message but the plot is a bit stupid. For eg.

1. "Wow, that boy killed a wolf using only a large shield and a sword, how brave of him! Let's put him in command of the entire army despite the fact that he has no millitary experience, or indeed any experience of Narnia, the important point is that he can kill a wolf, right?" (N.B. This quote may have been altered slightly and should not be taken to be an accurate excerpt from the book)

2. Aslan is sacrificed after the witch invokes a law that has never previously been mentioned in the book. Aslan then returns to life because of another ancient law that has never previously been mentioned. Deus ex machina anyone?

3. "So, your little sister claims to have visited another world by means of a wardrobe and that time flowed at a different rate. I wouldn't normally beleive her but the time element is so stupidly impossible that it must be true." (again, I take no responsibility for the accuracy of this quote).

4. When they spend about 10 years in Narnia only a few minutes (let us call it 10 for simplicity) have passed in this world. From this we can deduce that 1 Earth minute= 1 Narnia year. After the first trip into the wardrobe they didn't return until the next day, by which point 1440 years would have passed in Narnia, therefore that annoying fawn and the witch should have been long dead by the time they returned.

I could go on....

teh 3v1l N4rn14 pr0p4g4nd4z0rz

Just because it deserves to be quoted.

Ok, forget the rest of the article, but sorry, what!?

After all, 43% of people in Britain in a recent poll couldn't say what Easter celebrated.

No specific poll given, but thats not a good sign. You might not be Christian, but for crying out loud, ignorance is not a good thing :(

Ok, forget the rest of the article, but sorry, what!?

After all, 43% of people in Britain in a recent poll couldn't say what Easter celebrated.

No specific poll given, but thats not a good sign. You might not be Christian, but for crying out loud, ignorance is not a good thing :(Well, calculating when Easter is is a bit more complicated than knowing when Mother's Day is. After all, it could be in either March or April, depending upon the cycle of the moon. Given that most people who don't live on boats (and thus care about tides) know jack about what the moon cycle is going to be next month, let alone next year, I think we can cut them some slack for not knowing exactly when next Easter is, or even exactly how the date of Easter is calculated.
Easter is the Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon. The Paschal Full Moon may occur from March 21 through April 18, inclusive. Thus the date of Easter is from March 22 through April 25, inclusive. The date of the Paschal full moon is determined from tables, and it may differ from the date of the the actual full moon by up to two days. This definition, along with tables, etc. may be found in "The Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Ephemeris and American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac". This definition that uses tables instead of actual observations of the full moon is useful and necessary since the the full moon may occur on different (local, not UT) dates depending where you are in the world. If the date of Easter was based on local observations, then it would be possible for different parts of the world to celebrate Easter on different dates in the same year.

I wouldn't be so sure I think he might have very well found fualt in Christianity himself.

Meh, who's to know?

Whilst I may disagree with not allowing your children to get as wide and varied education as possible, i do think that this particular article is a big loads of b******ks*. That said, you've got to read the crap to form your own opinion.

In conclusion, she may be a complete moron, but never-the-less, don't stop your kids from reading stuff like that. Allow them to form their own opinions, if nothing else, so that they can learn to make their own decisions.

Cheers :)

Actually, I have no kids (haha! me as a parent! god help the little anklebiters...), but if I did, they could read as they pleased, for the most part.

I was just engaging in the sort of hyperbole Toynbee uses... god she's infuriating... I _might_ actually recommend to any children I spawn to be wary in their choice of writers... the blood pressure can only be pushed so high so long! :p

Islam encourages science and learning. :)

I like that, but I still don't accept any kind of greater being...

Well, calculating when Easter is is a bit more complicated than knowing when Mother's Day is...
It's not "when", it's "what". :)

It's not "when", it's "what". :)
Argh. Me must learn read thoroughly.

Okay then, how about a diatribe comparing the Christian theme to the original pagan fertility rituals (and the reason that there is a sliding date), and who's to say which answer is correct? :D

Well, if you had, you'd know how silly all of that is. The children were crowned, not because they were rich (they weren't, until they were crowned), but because they were to inherit the kingdom once evil was defeated. The only time there is ever poverty of any sort evident in Narnia is when evil is in power.

As for the problem with the lion being strong and powerful, I don't see the parallels they are trying to draw. Christ was strong and powerful, but in a humble way. He had no problem calling out those who were doing wrong, even when it put him in harm's way. In a way, Christ was both a lion and a sheep - strong and powerful, yet meek and humble - loving, yet demanding. Christ could have avoided crucifixion at any time, yet allowed himself to be tortured, ridiculed, and killed.

In the book, Aslan is humble. You hardly ever see him do anything violent or flaunt his power. He asks others to forgive Edmund's betrayal and willingly takes the punishment meant for Edmund. Does this sound like a "might makes right" type of character?
Nah; it sounds like an abuse of symbolism on the part of the author, Toynbee.

Ok, forget the rest of the article, but sorry, what!?

After all, 43% of people in Britain in a recent poll couldn't say what Easter celebrated.

No specific poll given, but thats not a good sign. You might not be Christian, but for crying out loud, ignorance is not a good thing :(

The birth of the Easter bunny?:confused:

4. When they spend about 10 years in Narnia only a few minutes (let us call it 10 for simplicity) have passed in this world. From this we can deduce that 1 Earth minute= 1 Narnia year. After the first trip into the wardrobe they didn't return until the next day, by which point 1440 years would have passed in Narnia, therefore that annoying fawn and the witch should have been long dead by the time they returned.


It just says that time works differently, it doesn't necessarily have to be a ratio to where 1 Earth Minute = 1 Narnia year, it could change, it could be continually changing (thus it would be different then how time works here, because time here is constant)

not to get into a debate about it or anything, I do see your point, I just thought I would throw my view out there for ya.;)

The birth of the Easter bunny?:confused:
no, the death and resurection of the Easter bunny :rolleyes: quit mixing up your holidays :p

Elgesh']Cheers :)

Actually, I have no kids (haha! me as a parent! god help the little anklebiters...), but if I did, they could read as they pleased, for the most part.

I was just engaging in the sort of hyperbole Toynbee uses... god she's infuriating... I _might_ actually recommend to any children I spawn to be wary in their choice of writers... the blood pressure can only be pushed so high so long! :p

Yeah, she drives me insane as well, she writes, or used to at least, in the Radio Times, I always ended up arguing with my mum who used to read her like it was gospel (yes, i can see the irony).

Funny to think that CS Lewis used to be athiest, eh? Now his books on Christianity are thought to be some of the best ever written (Screwtape Letters, Mere Cristianity, etc.). There was some talk of this when LOTR came out, and there is even a book out by a Baylor U. professor called the Gospel According to Tolkien, which speaks of the christian iconography in the trilogy.

^_^
Taken from Anime Insider #27 Dec. 2005:
If it Were Anime: The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe
As WWII grips the country, siblings Daishi, Susa, Edo and Ruki are sent to live w/ a reclusive monk in Hokkaido, but they're hardly out of harms way once Ruki discovers an abandoned shrine where a mysterious temple gate leads to Narunia, a magical land populated by dragons, ogres and other beasts once thought to be myths.
When Ruki, Daishi and Susa meet the benevolent lion-god Asran, Edo shuns them and learns magic from the Shiroi Majo, a witch who keeps Narunia trapped in perpetual winter.
Using weapons and powers granted to them by Asran, the three find themselves caught up in a rebellion against the Shiroi Majo and Edo, who comes to doubt his new allegiance. When Asran inexplicably decides to sacrifice himself, it's up to the children to lead Narunia's noble creatures to rid the land of evil, all while allegorically promoting Buddhist values.
^_^

So is it bad to allegorically promote any religion, or just Christianity?

Yeah, she drives me insane as well, she writes, or used to at least, in the Radio Times, I always ended up arguing with my mum who used to read her like it was gospel (yes, i can see the irony). Hmm... I'm reading some of her articles right now. I notice that the Church of England is in the process of getting an iron grip over the country and stifling all opposition. How worrisome.

Meh. Like kids are going to get the sociopolitical references in the books/movie.
I didn't, and enjoyed the books for what they were as a child; good kid-lit.

As a cynical agnostic (i.e., I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm not going to completely discount it...the universe is too vast and mysterious not to contain wonders beyond belief,) I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs through art, and anyone who has a problem with that needs to get a life. Criticize all you'd like, but don't suggest that heartfelt expression should be quashed.