NationStates Jolt Archive

Here in the US, selected lanes and roads are identified as carpool, or High Occupancy Vehicle - you have to have two and sometimes three people per car, depending on the local regulations during rush hour in order to use those roadways.

People have taken to great extremes to use those lanes - plastic dummies, etc.

If you have even a small child in the car, that counts as a passenger, When my daughter was quite young, I used to drive her to daycare, and used the carpool lane (legally). Often, she had to wave her hands over her head so a suspicious policeman behind me could see that there was someone in the car besides me.

Here we have a new argument - a woman claiming that her unborn fetus is also a passenger.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/1214ar-pregnant14-ON.html

A pregnant Ahwatukee Foothills woman ticketed for driving in a carpool lane will take her case to court in January, when she'll argue that her unborn child counts as a passenger.

Candace Dickinson, 23, hopes to overturn her penalty and prove her point that even though her child was still in the womb while she was driving on Interstate 10 on Nov. 8 in Ahwatukee Foothills, it still counted as a second person.

I had this conversation with a pregnant co-worker of mine. I told her she should park in the carpool parking spots here at work.

I don't see how it would be, I mean to carpool you have to kinda be going out of your way to give someone else a ride, so she has to take the fetus wherever she goes anyway, so she isn't really carpooling, although if your kid counts then I don't know.

We don't have carpool lanes here, so I am not sure on the technical stuff.

Pfft. When I visited the US I was quite impressed with the carpool lanes - I think it's a very good idea and encourages people to save fuel and not pollute by sharing journeys. However, as always there are people like this who try to exploit the system for their own selfish reasons. A fetus doesn't take up a car seat, so you are effectively driving on your own.

If she was in a state where abortion is illegal for the stage of pregnancy she was in at the time, then the fine should be waved; because according to the law that fetus was a person at the time.

Otherwise; tough titty, pay the fine.

I accidentally voted 'yes', but I meant no; I see no legal reason why it should be. It will be interesting to see the outcome of the case.

In some states a fetus can be considered a murder victim if the mother is attacked and the fetus dies. Those states should consider a fetus to be a human across the board, whether for car pool lane purposes, tax purposes, welfare purposes, everything. If not they're being very inconsistent.

In some states a fetus can be considered a murder victim if the mother is attacked and the fetus dies. Those states should consider a fetus to be a human across the board, whether for car pool lane purposes, tax purposes, welfare purposes, everything. If not they're being very inconsistent.
Hmmm - so we can take the tax deduction for a dependent. After all, she's eating for two...

Pfft. When I visited the US I was quite impressed with the carpool lanes - I think it's a very good idea and encourages people to save fuel and not pollute by sharing journeys. However, as always there are people like this who try to exploit the system for their own selfish reasons. A fetus doesn't take up a car seat, so you are effectively driving on your own.
There is really no such thing as driving alone, because as Bill Mahr has taught us "when you drive alone you drive with Bin Laden".

Hmmm - so we can take the tax deduction for a dependent. After all, she's eating for two...
Exactly.

In some states a fetus can be considered a murder victim if the mother is attacked and the fetus dies. Those states should consider a fetus to be a human across the board, whether for car pool lane purposes, tax purposes, welfare purposes, everything. If not they're being very inconsistent.

For murder, welfare, and taxes, the fetus should be considered a person, it is still a dependent, and you should still save money from it, however, claiming the fetus is a passenger is absurd.

The point of the system is to reduce the amount of cars on the road, which clears up roads, and reduces oil consumption and emisions.
They call it the carpool lane, because they actually want it to be used for carpooling. Taking your fetus with you to work is not carpooling.


(btw, to go on a carpool lane you only need 2 passengers? is there everywhere in the states?? )

(btw, to go on a carpool lane you only need 2 passengers? is there everywhere in the states?? )

Depends on the locality and highway. There are some emergency conditions where they will require 4 people per car just to enter a city (New York, if there's a transit strike), 2 people is fairly normal, 3 is not unheard of.

Motorcycles and alternative fuel vehicles or zero emission vehicles also get to use the carpool lanes, because they use less fuel and emit less pollution.

For murder, welfare, and taxes, the fetus should be considered a person, it is still a dependent, and you should still save money from it, however, claiming the fetus is a passenger is absurd.

The point of the system is to reduce the amount of cars on the road, which clears up roads, and reduces oil consumption and emisions.
They call it the carpool lane, because they actually want it to be used for carpooling. Taking your fetus with you to work is not carpooling.


(btw, to go on a carpool lane you only need 2 passengers? is there everywhere in the states?? )
How is taking a fetus not carpooling? If a fetus is going to be considered a person by the law for purposes of murder, welfare, and taxation, shouldn't motor vehicle law be consistent with the rest of the law and recognize the fetus' personhood?

My question is does a corpse in a hearse count as an extra person, and if so does a fetus in a jar of formaldehyde count too?

Motorcycles and alternative fuel vehicles or zero emission vehicles also get to use the carpool lanes, because they use less fuel and emit less pollution.

Really? I never knew that I could ride a bike in the carpool lane.

I don't think we need to debate the philosophical implications of whether or not a fetus is a person or just a clump of cells. We just need to look at this with some old-fashioned common sense. The idea behind carpooling is to encourage people to share transportation rather than each use individual transportation, thus cutting down on costs, congestion and pollution.

Unless said fetus can be removed at will and drive its own car to work, I don't think it should be counted as 'car pooling'. I also think that the law should be amended to stop people from using children to get away with it as well.

Really? I never knew that I could ride a bike in the carpool lane.
In Virginia, the carpool lane signs at the on ramps have "motorcycle" in very small print.

How is taking a fetus not carpooling? If a fetus is going to be considered a person by the law for purposes of murder, welfare, and taxation, shouldn't motor vehicle law be consistent with the rest of the law and recognize the fetus' personhood?


You must not look at the fetus being a person. You must look at the purpose of these laws.

The laws are there so you have less cars on the road. If for example, you were taking your kid, and 2 kids of two other parents, to a soccer game, then those two other parents don't need to go, and they dont have their two cars on the road.

It is very difficult to write a law, and enforce a law which says carpool lane is only for actual carpooling where by taking more passengers in the car you are reducing the number of cars on the road. Instead of that law, they say you must have at least 2 passengers.

(and clearly the fetus is driving)

You must not look at the fetus being a person. You must look at the purpose of these laws.

The laws are there so you have less cars on the road. If for example, you were taking your kid, and 2 kids of two other parents, to a soccer game, then those two other parents don't need to go, and they dont have their two cars on the road.

It is very difficult to write a law, and enforce a law which says carpool lane is only for actual carpooling where by taking more passengers in the car you are reducing the number of cars on the road. Instead of that law, they say you must have at least 2 passengers.

(and clearly the fetus is driving)
But Deep Kimchi said that he can have his kid in the car and still legally drive in the car pool lane. His kid's not old enough to drive, so that kind of kills your argument that the fetus doesn't count because it can't drive.

Oh, and nobody's answered my question about a corpse in a hearse.

But Deep Kimchi said that he can have his kid in the car and still legally drive in the car pool lane. His kid's not old enough to drive, so that kind of kills your argument that the fetus doesn't count because it can't drive.

Oh, and nobody's answered my question about a corpse in a hearse.

A corpse counts as luggage, you stow it in the trunk dont you? I guess the same counts for your wife then too though.

I agree, the kid not old enough to drive should not count as a passenger either. I also think carpool lane should be 3 or more, and you wouldnt have this case to deal with.
It is hard to enforce the law though, and on the signs you would have to write "2 or more 16 year old passengers", and then a cop driving by might see a midgit, and mistake him for a kid. oh no!!

Hey, these lanes are actually a really good idea.

I would like to point out that for tax purposes a fetus is not a person. You do not get to claim an exemption for the kid until it's born.

For example if you have a baby that is still born then there are no tax credits or exemptions or anything, but if you have a baby that is born live and dies 45 seconds later you get to claim the kid, his exemption, his child tax credit ect. for the entire tax year in which he was born.

sorry for the technical talk because I am sure most of you are kidding but I thought I should point it out.

Pregnancy is a poor excuse to drive in the car pool lane.

Siamese twins. They're both old enough to drive, can they use the carpool lane?

Siamese twins. They're both old enough to drive, can they use the carpool lane?

No becuase it falls under the poor exscuse cluase.

I think the main problem here is calling it a carpool lane to begin with. They just introduced these lanes on two of Ontario's highways but instead of calling them carpool lanes they are being called HOV lanes (High Occupancy Vehicle). This makes a lot more sense when you include children as passengers. Either way, I don't think that a pregnant woman should be considered eligible to use the lane.

If some conservative judge rules in her favor, i want to see public transportation and the airline industry to start requiring two tickets for pregnant women.

If the fetus occupies its own seat, it can count as a carpool/HOV.

A corpse or pickled fetus (gee, thanks for that image, DCD) are objects, rather like your briefcase or laptop, and don't count towards carpool/HOV points, even if they have their own seat and are belted in.

Siamese twins. They're both old enough to drive, can they use the carpool lane?

Yes.

Oh, and nobody's answered my question about a corpse in a hearse.

Only if the corpse is sitting in the passenger seat.

If the fetus occupies its own seat, it can count as a carpool/HOV.

A corpse or pickled fetus (gee, thanks for that image, DCD) are objects, rather like your briefcase or laptop, and don't count towards carpool/HOV points, even if they have their own seat and are belted in.
You're welcome. I'm feeling a little morbid today.

That argument has been used before and they lost. She will too.....

My question is does a corpse in a hearse count as an extra person,

No, although it's been tried before.

I think the main problem here is calling it a carpool lane to begin with. They just introduced these lanes on two of Ontario's highways but instead of calling them carpool lanes they are being called HOV lanes (High Occupancy Vehicle). This makes a lot more sense when you include children as passengers. Either way, I don't think that a pregnant woman should be considered eligible to use the lane.

Hooray! I finally know what HOV stands for! ((Here in Atlanta, we have HOV lanes. I never knew what it meant, other than that I had to have someone else with me to use it))


Meanwhile, I drive with my dog seatbelted into the passenger seat sometimes, does that make me a carpool?

Anyone who voted yes and meant it should be wiping tables at McDonald's and taking the short bus home.

Along those lines, does a fetus count towards the maximum occupancy of a building?

Ah, this is ridiculous! Two people occupy the same body and therefore the same space in the car! If she can get away with it, then you could argue that everyone with multiple personality disorder also has a case, and people who were born with fetus-in fetus syndrome. In fact, I'm ovulating, and that's potentially another human being, can I use the HOV lane?

Meanwhile, I drive with my dog seatbelted into the passenger seat sometimes, does that make me a carpool?


LOL, doubt it!!!:D

(btw, to go on a carpool lane you only need 2 passengers? is there everywhere in the states?? )

Americans like their cars just that little bit too much. It's a rare day that I drive to work and see more than one person in the cars I pass on the road. BTW, I work at the same institute as my husband, so yes, I car pool, and no I don't use the HOV lanes

In Virginia, the carpool lane signs at the on ramps have "motorcycle" in very small print.


Really?!? Hadn't noticed and I live in NOVA

LOL, doubt it!!!:D

=( That makes me sad. He takes up just as much space as a child would - and I sometimes have to drive him around for similar reasons to driving a child around. I think he should count.

hehe

=( That makes me sad. He takes up just as much space as a child would - and I sometimes have to drive him around for similar reasons to driving a child around. I think he should count.

hehe

Well, there's a simple solution to that. Shave your dog and get him a DMV ID card, and make him sit in a car seat!

I don't think anyone under driving age should count. The purpose of HOV lanes was to have commuters carpool to save gas.

If a fetus is a passanger, then so's the bowel movement I'm waiting to get home to perform.

Anyone who voted yes and meant it should be wiping tables at McDonald's and taking the short bus home.

I voted yes. I voted yes but sayed even though the unborn child counts as a passenger that does not mean pregnant women are carpooling.

Certainly not, this is really very far-fetched :rolleyes:

If a fetus is a passanger, then so's the bowel movement I'm waiting to get home to perform.

My point exactly!