NationStates Jolt Archive

I just bought a Glock .45 for my carry piece . Does anyone else own one ?
I would like to have adjustable sights ..but I cant seem to see how to manage that .

I just bought a Glock .45 for my carry piece . Does anyone else own one ?
I would like to have adjustable sights ..but I cant seem to see how to manage that .
1. I do not recommend adjustable sights on a carry piece. Adjustable sights tend to move when you don't want them to.
2. The factory sights can be moved left or right with an adjustment tool - and then you should leave them there.
3. Pick a favorite load that functions correctly and achieves a penetration of at least 18 inches in ballistic gelatin.
4. Carry at least two extra magazines.

But if you really think you need adjustable sights
http://glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/180

4. Carry at least two extra magazines.
For those times when you get stuck in those oh-so-often shoot outs in the mall.

I just bought a Glock .45 for my carry piece . Does anyone else own one ?
I would like to have adjustable sights ..but I cant seem to see how to manage that .

Are you using the Model 30 (sort of compact .45) or the full size .45 Glock? I used to have one. I'm a pretty substandard shot, but after some practice I could consistently put 10 rounds into a 2 inch group at 50 ft. For a carry gun, I think thats more than adequate (and the limitation was mine, not the pistol's).

For those times when you get stuck in those oh-so-often shoot outs in the mall.
If it never happens, it never happens. But on the off chance that it does happen that you're in a shootout and you run dry, or your first magazine is bad and causes a malfunction, you'll die wishing you had brought extra mags.

Are you using the Model 30 (sort of compact .45) or the full size .45 Glock? I used to have one. I'm a pretty substandard shot, but after some practice I could consistently put 10 rounds into a 2 inch group at 50 ft. For a carry gun, I think thats more than adequate (and the limitation was mine, not the pistol's).
Adjustable sights on a pistol rarely make you more accurate - I find that the factory sights and the adjustment tool put you on target just fine.

If it never happens, it never happens. But on the off chance that it does happen that you're in a shootout and you run dry, or your first magazine is bad and causes a malfunction, you'll die wishing you had brought extra mags.
You, sir, are psychotic.

You, sir, are a psychopath.
No, I just get threatened by ex-husbands who want to kill me for telling their wives that they can leave an abusive relationship - and for helping those women learn to shoot and carry firearms.

No, I just get threatened by ex-husbands who want to kill me for telling their wives that they can leave an abusive relationship - and for helping those women learn to shoot and carry firearms.
If you need to carry two extra clips with you along with your gun, something is more fucked up than my remote control with two buttons that do literally nothing.

If you need to carry two extra clips with you along with your gun, something is more fucked up than my remote control with two buttons that do literally nothing.
Its one of those things you learn from dating a Girl Scout, Be Prepared.

If you need to carry two extra clips with you along with your gun, something is more fucked up than my remote control with two buttons that do literally nothing.
The world is fucked up. There's an undercurrent of violence right outside your house, and the only reason that you don't see it is because you don't confront it.

I decided long ago that instead of waiting for the police to help desperate women leave their abusive men, I would help them help themselves. It's then that you notice that there are men like this all throughout even the most affluent neighborhoods - men who appear to be upstanding citizens with no prior criminal record. Men who beat their wives and threaten to kill them (and threaten to kill me and my family on a regular basis).

Police just don't want to get involved - they want to live to see retirement, not see the law truly enforced.

You, sir, are psychotic.
No he's not. What good is a pistol without ammo? .45s aren't high capacity guns. Not like a 9mm which can hold 15 rounds in a double stack magazine. Also having the extra magazines doesn't mean you'll shoot them all dry. You might reload before one magazine is empty. I think that's called a tactical reload. Also if you're wearing the gun on your hip with a jacket covering it the extra magazines can weigh down the pocket of the jacket and keep it from blowing or brushing back or up and revealing your weapon to everyone around.

I would suggest something with a larger clip if you need two extra clips for all the gun fights you get in in the OK Corral.

I would suggest something with a larger clip if you need two extra clips for all the gun fights you get in in the OK Corral.
Don't you ever just get tired of knowing it all?

Don't you ever just get tired of knowing it all?
Do you?
Something with a larger clip is better if for some reason you need to carry around a few extra for whatever you have.

I would suggest something with a larger clip if you need two extra clips for all the gun fights you get in in the OK Corral.
Do you really have a problem with the guy carrying a gun? It's not like he's some kind of vicious criminal. Lots of normal everyday people carry guns. Hell, sometimes I carry. I've got my .38 special with me right now. Doesn't mean I'm going on a shooting spree. I'm just prepared.

Do you?
Something with a larger clip is better if for some reason you need to carry around a few extra for whatever you have.
Maybe he prefers a bigger bullet. Not everyone is partial to 9mm.

Do you really have a problem with the guy carrying a gun? It's not like he's some kind of vicious criminal. Lots of normal everyday people carry guns. Hell, sometimes I carry. I've got my .38 special with me right now. Doesn't mean I'm going on a shooting spree. I'm just prepared.

A gun is one of many tools. Sure, it's about as useful as a hydrogen bomb on the typical day. It takes up room and weight, and you have to clean it occasionally and practice with it. It costs money.

You can go your entire life and never need to use it. But if a moment arises when you need one, you really, really will need it.

Maybe he prefers a bigger bullet. Not everyone is partial to 9mm.
If you don't hit anything with it, a bigger bullet isn't going to do much, and if you need two extra clips I don't foresee alot of hitting going on. Besides, what is he shooting at? Elk?

If you don't hit anything with it, a bigger bullet isn't going to do much, and if you need two extra clips I don't foresee alot of hitting going on. Besides, what is he shooting at? Elk?
People who fit the category of the authorized use of deadly force.
http://www.spw-duf.info/force.html

If you don't hit anything with it, a bigger bullet isn't going to do much, and if you need two extra clips I don't foresee alot of hitting going on. Besides, what is he shooting at? Elk?
Don't assume he can't shoot straight just because he packs extra ammo.
.45 isn't overkill on a human. It's a slow moving round. It's diameter and weight plus it's slower speed gives a good combination of penetration and large wound cavity for stopping power on a person. 9mm, small and fast as it is, might take more rounds to stop an attacker unless you're using a good plus p hollowpoint. Heavy winter clothing can plug up the hollow point and reduce expansion thus reducing stopping power even with good ammo.

Are you using the Model 30 (sort of compact .45) or the full size .45 Glock? I used to have one. I'm a pretty substandard shot, but after some practice I could consistently put 10 rounds into a 2 inch group at 50 ft. For a carry gun, I think thats more than adequate (and the limitation was mine, not the pistol's).

Getting a 2" group at 15m or 50 ft with any combat handgun is decent shooting. With my 1911, it is more like 4" at that range, due more to me than my weapon.

Getting a 2" group at 15m or 50 ft with any combat handgun is decent shooting. With my 1911, it is more like 4" at that range, due more to me than my weapon.
Good thing for most of us that the paper target holds still, too.

Somewhat OT

At one of the shooting ranges in Philly where I've rented guns the glocks seem less accurate than the berettas. Is this because of differences in the quality of the guns, because maybe the berettas just fit me better, or because the glocks get rented more and may be more worn out? (I've been told that most of the young guys who come in to rent a pistol choose the glock)

Good thing for most of us that the paper target holds still, too.
No kidding. Ducks are the only moving target I shoot at, but that's what shotguns are for.

people shouldnt carry guns. Guns kill and humans shouldnt have to carry a weapon "just in case they get shot at".
Throughout my entire life I havent sen a gun shootout or even a person carrying a gun. The only guns ive ever seen are on my farm and their air rifles. why the hell do you need a gun. Not everyone wants to kill u:confused:

Nuff sed

Somewhat OT

At one of the shooting ranges in Philly where I've rented guns the glocks seem less accurate than the berettas. Is this because of differences in the quality of the guns, because maybe the berettas just fit me better, or because the glocks get rented more and may be more worn out? (I've been told that most of the young guys who come in to rent a pistol choose the glock)

The barrel moves on a Glock (or any Browning based action). The barrel on a Beretta is fixed, and does not move. Makes a slight difference.

The trigger on the Beretta is smoother as well.

People rent and buy Glocks because they get a lot of press, and are in movies.

No kidding. Ducks are the only moving target I shoot at, but that's what shotguns are for.

I've had fun with people using a running boar target. Most people who can punch neat little holes very slowly on a stationary target can't hit a moving target at all, even when it's 5 yards away, and they fire multiple shots.

people shouldnt carry guns. Guns kill and humans shouldnt have to carry a weapon "just in case they get shot at".
Throughout my entire life I havent sen a gun shootout or even a person carrying a gun. The only guns ive ever seen are on my farm and their air rifles. why the hell do you need a gun. Not everyone wants to kill u

Nuff sed
What harm is there in a responsible person carrying a gun?

Sure we shouldn't have to carry a weapon just in case, but the world isn't a perfect place. Some of us have to go into dangerous neighborhoods, some of us live in such places. It's best to be prepared to defend yourself if you do.

You haven't seen a shootout, so what? I have seen a guy get shot in the chest at close range with a large revolver about 50 feet or so in front of my car. I've had a shotgun pointed at me. Not everyone's life is as safe as yours.

I know that not everyone wants to kill me. In fact I can't think of one person who does. I have a gun to protect myself from the random criminal who might decide I'm a good victim. If he pulls a weapon I'm damn sure going to use mine. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The barrel moves on a Glock (or any Browning based action). The barrel on a Beretta is fixed, and does not move. Makes a slight difference.

The trigger on the Beretta is smoother as well.

People rent and buy Glocks because they get a lot of press, and are in movies.
Thanks.

I've had fun with people using a running boar target. Most people who can punch neat little holes very slowly on a stationary target can't hit a moving target at all, even when it's 5 yards away, and they fire multiple shots.
Most people can't shoot. We would finish up our week on the rifle range with a contest we called a 'rattle battle'. The Zeros would challenge the enlisted to a rifle match, where you had a fixed number of rounds. Hits from the 500 yd line were worth more than the 300, and those were worth more than the hits at the 200, so you had to budget your shots. Timing was also a factor. We used that shoulder/head silhouette target and anything in the black was a point.

I usually did pretty well, because a few well-aimed shots at 500 yards always beat the panic-driven frenzy at the 200 yard line. There were guys who shot expert during quals, who would only get a few hits during the comp. Go figure.

Eh, glocks catch a lot of shit for jamming frequently, which can be a real problem if you don't keep her clean.

If you don't mind me asking, what made you go for the 45? Personally, I've always bee a fan of my 9 mm, rounds cost less, faster rate of fire, less recoil, I find I fire more accurately, and my hand isn't tired after a day of target shooting.

While I am normally an auto fan (fav is a 1911 Officer's frame with a Commander slide...) my winter carry gun is a Ruger .357 snubby with 180gr SJHPs. Yeah, only 5 rounds, but I carry 10 more in speed loaders and a .32acp mouse gun for Oh-Shit! belly work.

I've thought about a Glock 36 or the 10mm equivilent, but ya gotta run with what you have - and the Ruger's all I've got right now.

Oh yeah - NO on Adj sights for the Glock. Go with Crimson Trace or the buffer-spring laser. Much quicker and better in the dark.

Eh, glocks catch a lot of shit for jamming frequently, which can be a real problem if you don't keep her clean.

If you don't mind me asking, what made you go for the 45? Personally, I've always bee a fan of my 9 mm, rounds cost less, faster rate of fire, less recoil, I find I fire more accurately, and my hand isn't tired after a day of target shooting.

Everyone has their preferences - I find that I shoot 45 ACP more accurately than 9mm - go figure. Then again, I'm old school, and I also believe in a slightly fatter bullet.

I've had fun with people using a running boar target. Most people who can punch neat little holes very slowly on a stationary target can't hit a moving target at all, even when it's 5 yards away, and they fire multiple shots.

I used to hunt every so often, and I have hit a moving target at about 65 meters (once). It did take three shots, but the one that landed was clean. After that, I'd only try on standing targets.

While I am normally an auto fan (fav is a 1911 Officer's frame with a Commander slide...) my winter carry gun is a Ruger .357 snubby with 180gr SJHPs. Yeah, only 5 rounds, but I carry 10 more in speed loaders and a .32acp mouse gun for Oh-Shit! belly work.


Is that the SP-101?

Is that the SP-101?
Yeah. 2.25", Tritium front blade, full hammer. I actually like the felt recoil of the Federal 180s better than the 156s or 125s.

Yeah. 2.25", Tritium front blade, full hammer. I actually like the felt recoil of the Federal 180s better than the 156s or 125s.

You know, a friend once told me that the .357 magnum uses a slower-burning powder, and requires a longer barrel to develop full muzzle velocity, but I have no idea if its true. Do you find that porting gives any benefit in a snubbed revolver?

You know, a friend once told me that the .357 magnum uses a slower-burning powder, and requires a longer barrel to develop full muzzle velocity, but I have no idea if its true. Do you find that porting gives any benefit in a snubbed revolver?
Syniks likes loud toys - he had a Casull.

I'm sure he thinks the recoil on the 357 snub is moderate, and the noise level low, by comparison.

Syniks likes loud toys - he had a Casull.

I'm sure he thinks the recoil on the 357 snub is moderate, and the noise level low, by comparison.

Those big .454 monsters? Gravy, if I needed something like that, I'd chicken out and just go with a rifle...

In a book I like, one guy is constantly waving about a "Webley .455", if I recall. I'm sure its not as nasty, but I wonder how they compare. Anybody got one?

Those big .454 monsters? Gravy, if I needed something like that, I'd chicken out and just go with a rifle...

In a book I like, one guy is constantly waving about a "Webley .455", if I recall. I'm sure its not as nasty, but I wonder how they compare. Anybody got one?

The cartridge, and the powder load, for a 454 Casull is much greater, and uses slower burning powder (for a longer acceleration impulse). Higher muzzle velocity, greater recoil.

The .455 Webley is a tad slower in velocity than the venerable 45 ACP (which is in the 1911 and other pistols). The .455 Webley is very mild in recoil, unless you compare it to other cartridges of its time, where it feels a bit stiffer by comparison.

The world is fucked up. There's an undercurrent of violence right outside your house, and the only reason that you don't see it is because you don't confront it.

I decided long ago that instead of waiting for the police to help desperate women leave their abusive men, I would help them help themselves. It's then that you notice that there are men like this all throughout even the most affluent neighborhoods - men who appear to be upstanding citizens with no prior criminal record. Men who beat their wives and threaten to kill them (and threaten to kill me and my family on a regular basis).

Police just don't want to get involved - they want to live to see retirement, not see the law truly enforced.

right all the police hate you! THEY HATE YOU! THEY'RE ALL OUT TO NOT HELP ANYONE! EVER! wow. you sound you're trying to brainwash someone but at the same time offer them help. Is there any particular reason you havn't applied for the job so you could show them how to do their jobs and do it in guidlines with the law? no don't get me wrong it's bad to abuse people, anyone disregarding sex or ethnicity but killing them before they kill you or their wife? So you teach the women how to use guns so they can kill their husbands and they're safe? No then they go find a different abusive husbands because let's face it some women just like dirtbags and go from one abusive relationship to the next. Killing them as she goes.

Well, I hope you have some one covering you while you are ducked behind the aisle reloading.

You know, a friend once told me that the .357 magnum uses a slower-burning powder, and requires a longer barrel to develop full muzzle velocity, but I have no idea if its true. Do you find that porting gives any benefit in a snubbed revolver?
You don't have room to port a 2" bbl.

All in all what you say is correct - especially in regards to hyper-fast light bullets like the 110s & 125s. IMO the 180 makes up for velocity in mass, and still opens up decently enough even out of a snubby for solid self defense (people or critter) work.

There are people who will disagree with me, but then I'll carry what I'm comfortable and accurate with.

right all the police hate you! THEY HATE YOU!


Nope, it's not that police hate you, it's that they have no legal obligation to protect any individual (See Warren v. District of Columbia) and in domestic violence cases, most police do everything they can to avoid confrontation - and these women know it before they ever meet me. You can get a protective order, and all it will do is incite the man to attack you. The police only show up after the beating or murder is over.

Is there any particular reason you havn't applied for the job so you could show them how to do their jobs and do it in guidlines with the law?
Yes. Because the law is also an ass. Ever seen a magistrate laugh at a beaten woman who is trying to get a protective order? Because she doesn't have witnesses to her beating? Because a mere black eye and her statement isn't enough for the magistrate?

So you teach the women how to use guns so they can kill their husbands and they're safe?

No, she's not taught to kill her husband. These men stalk the women and continually attack and intimidate them - at home, at work, on the street. The police and courts have no real interest in stopping it.

But...

Having a protective order defines the husband as an immediate lethal threat. If you have that in hand, and have a carry permit and a gun, if he shows up to harass or beat you again, you can shoot him.

In our training program, we get you that protective order, get you the training, and will subsidize your purchase of a firearm. We then tell the husband.

Up to this point, none of the women in the program have ever been harassed again. Ever. The men stay well away - and that is a good, non-violent result.

You don't have room to port a 2" bbl.

All in all what you say is correct - especially in regards to hyper-fast light bullets like the 110s & 125s. IMO the 180 makes up for velocity in mass, and still opens up decently enough even out of a snubby for solid self defense (people or critter) work.

There are people who will disagree with me, but then I'll carry what I'm comfortable and accurate with.

when you say "opens up", are you referring to expansion of the bullet in the tissue of the target?

When I carried a .45, I favored the Federal Hydrashok (sic?), but with smaller calibers, I favored the Speer GoldDot. I think my biggest mistake was, when I practiced, I used lead reloads, or jacketed roundball, but only once or twice a year would I practice with my actual carry rounds. Probably wasn't doing myself any favors...

Well, I hope you have some one covering you while you are ducked behind the aisle reloading.
I have a Mauser M2 (from SIG) as my carry pistol. I can draw and fire six shots at three different targets in a little over 1.5 seconds on average, reload, and fire six more shots at three more targets, and I'm usually done the whole thing in under 7 seconds (as low as 5.5 seconds).

That still leaves me with 2 rounds in each used magazine, and 8 rounds in the third magazine.

Not sure I need to duck that often. Move, yes. But duck, no. Moving targets are harder to hit, and most things you can hide behind don't stop bullets.

Those big .454 monsters? Gravy, if I needed something like that, I'd chicken out and just go with a rifle...

In a book I like, one guy is constantly waving about a "Webley .455", if I recall. I'm sure its not as nasty, but I wonder how they compare. Anybody got one?
Weak. The .455 was initally a black powder cartridge and is lower in velocity and pressure than a .45acp.

My .454 load was a 350 LBT WFN compressing 31gr W296 or H110. I got about 2200 ftlbs at the muzzle.

Recoil really wasn't all that bad as long as you didn't fight the gun. I was able to one-hand rapid fire (fire, recoil, drop muzzle/thumb hammer, sight, fire) all five shots from the draw in sub six seconds into a paper plate at 25 feet, and keep 2"-3" groups at 25 yards. Not "good" in any competitive sense, but certainly "good enough" for practical work.

when you say "opens up", are you referring to expansion of the bullet in the tissue of the target?

When I carried a .45, I favored the Federal Hydrashok (sic?), but with smaller calibers, I favored the Speer GoldDot. I think my biggest mistake was, when I practiced, I used lead reloads, or jacketed roundball, but only once or twice a year would I practice with my actual carry rounds. Probably wasn't doing myself any favors...
I've found that I really like the Remington Golden Saber in 45 ACP (the 230gr +P).

It's all I practice with and carry.

i'll never understand a nation that freely permits carrying lethal weapons yet is so restrictive on alcohol...

I have a Mauser M2 (from SIG) as my carry pistol. I can draw and fire six shots at three different targets in a little over 1.5 seconds on average, reload, and fire six more shots at three more targets, and I'm usually done the whole thing in under 7 seconds (as low as 5.5 seconds).

That still leaves me with 2 rounds in each used magazine, and 8 rounds in the third magazine.

Not sure I need to duck that often. Move, yes. But duck, no. Moving targets are harder to hit, and most things you can hide behind don't stop bullets.
I don't care, you are unhealthily obsessed with firearms and getting into firefights with other human beings. This is not any random place in Africa, or the Middle East, or South America. This is the United States. Normal people do not regularly start firefights with live weapons with each other on the street or in stores. You obviously sit around considering what you would do if you got into one of these regular firefights which only occur inside your head, carry around a concealed weapon as well as extra ammo clips for when it happens and you maintain and reinforce reasons as to why and when it would be ok to shoot and kill another individual.

You need to be taken in for psychological evaluation.

i'll never understand a nation that freely permits carrying lethal weapons yet is so restrictive on alcohol...

I hear what you're saying, but its not all that free, especially in some areas.

In my state, libraries and brothels don't permit them at all.

when you say "opens up", are you referring to expansion of the bullet in the tissue of the target? Yes. I haven't pulled a recovered slug yet (Wet newspaper next summer...) but since it is a SJHP rather than fully jacketed like so many "fast" HPs it should still make 50 or 60 cal.

When I carried a .45, I favored the Federal Hydrashok (sic?), but with smaller calibers, I favored the Speer GoldDot. I think my biggest mistake was, when I practiced, I used lead reloads, or jacketed roundball, but only once or twice a year would I practice with my actual carry rounds. Probably wasn't doing myself any favors...
Nope - unless you were shooting weight for weight and velocity for velocity. You can do that if you reload your own, but it's mighty hard to match differing commercial loads. Another reason why I buy $12/25 Federal HiShocks vs $25/20 "High performance" loads.

I don't care, you are unhealthily obsessed with firearms and getting into firefights with other human beings. This is not any random place in Africa, or the Middle East, or South America. This is the United States. Normal people do not regularly start firefights with live weapons with each other on the street or in stores. You obviously sit around considering what you would do if you got into one of these regular firefights which only occur inside your head, carry around a concealed weapon as well as extra ammo clips for when it happens and you maintain and reinforce reasons as to why and when it would be ok to shoot and kill another individual.

You need to be taken in for psychological evaluation.
Had that done before I went to AMTU in the Army. I'm not only quite sane, but considered better at making "judgments in a thermonuclear context" than most people.

Even if I have a gun in my hand, I am probably far less likely to misuse it than most people - even those that hate guns.

I've had the tests repeated by psychologists (not the "thermonuclear context" part) just to assure people I know. Still as solid as a rock.

If I was as psychotic as you claim, there would be dead people piled up everywhere, including my first two wives, who are happy, well, and have never once been threatened.

I don't care, you are unhealthily obsessed with firearms and getting into firefights with other human beings. This is not any random place in Africa, or the Middle East, or South America. This is the United States. Normal people do not regularly start firefights with live weapons with each other on the street or in stores. You obviously sit around considering what you would do if you got into one of these regular firefights which only occur inside your head, carry around a concealed weapon as well as extra ammo clips for when it happens and you maintain and reinforce reasons as to why and when it would be ok to shoot and kill another individual.

You need to be taken in for psychological evaluation.
I wish that there were more people with this obsession over self-protection. Does anyone remember the massacre at Luby's restaurant in Kileen, TX?

Look it up. It's a good case for encouraging CCW holders into a place of business.

Yes. I haven't pulled a recovered slug yet (Wet newspaper next summer...) but since it is a SJHP rather than fully jacketed like so many "fast" HPs it should still make 50 or 60 cal.


Once dug a semi-jacketed hollowpoint out of an animal's skull, from a .44 Mag revolver (Taurus). The round opened, but not symetrically. I must have hit it at an angle or something, because one side petaled out, the other side curled in. I still have it, somewhere...

Getting a 2" group at 15m or 50 ft with any combat handgun is decent shooting. With my 1911, it is more like 4" at that range, due more to me than my weapon.
Perhaps I shouldn't critisize my shooting as much as I do.

With a 1911 at about fifty feet (we were kinda guestimating, but it was prety close) I can shoot a group of ten within about 1.5" Perhaps I am a much better shot than I realize. Although my forte is rifles. I'm much better with them.

I just bought a Glock .45 for my carry piece . Does anyone else own one ?
I would like to have adjustable sights ..but I cant seem to see how to manage that .
First I would suggest you sell the Glock. Get a SigSauer P229 in .40 cal S&W.
Better control, good stoping power--all around superior weapon.

You will get 12 in the mag---

Dont bother with two extra mags--bottom line if you cant kill an opposing shooter in an urban situation with 3 rounds/ and he cant kill you--you guys will be gone.

An engagement like that is very dynamic----if you have 36 rounds on your person and need them---one of two things are occuring.

1. You an excellently trained CQC fighter effectively engaged in killing multiple armed 'bad guys' in a combat situation---are you in Iraq or Afghanistan?

2. You are a piss poor shot, in all reality you will kill bystanders---and in the end be killed by attacker as you spray lead in frenzy testosterone and ignorance.

Get a manageable weapon---practice until at 50ft you keep a magazine with 4"(10-12 rounds)

If you are strong enough to really manage a .45---good for you--I will stick with a smaller cartridge on a carry piece, and a Kimber in my nightstand, with a mossberg behind the door.

I don't care, you are unhealthily obsessed with firearms and getting into firefights with other human beings. This is not any random place in Africa, or the Middle East, or South America. This is the United States. Normal people do not regularly start firefights with live weapons with each other on the street or in stores. Perhaps not, but this "normal person" has disuaded a carjacker, a smal band of robbery-bent thugs, and a psycho with a tire iron simply by displaying my firearm. I've done enough "speed shooting" (IPSC ranked) to certainly undertake rapid reloads with an auto if necessary, but I personnaly don't want the extra baggage of more than one extra magazine - and even that is only (IMO) so that I can reload AFTER the event so that I can REMAIN armed - rather than just be holding an inert lump of metal.
You obviously sit around considering what you would do if you got into one of these regular firefights which only occur inside your head, carry around a concealed weapon as well as extra ammo clips for when it happens and you maintain and reinforce reasons as to why and when it would be ok to shoot and kill another individual. You need to be taken in for psychological evaluation.Pot Kettle Black: Read and Learn.


Raging Against Self Defense:
A Psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality
righter@therighter.com

"You don't need to have a gun; the police will protect you."

"If people carry guns, there will be murders over parking spaces and neighborhood basketball games."

"I'm a pacifist. Enlightened, spiritually aware people shouldn't own guns."

"I'd rather be raped than have some redneck militia type try to rescue me."
How often have you heard these statements from misguided advocates of victim disarmament, or even woefully uninformed relatives and neighbors? Why do people cling so tightly to these beliefs, in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong? Why do they get so furiously angry when gun owners point out that their arguments are factually and logically incorrect?

How can you communicate with these people who seem to be out of touch with reality and rational thought?

One approach to help you deal with anti-gun people is to understand their psychological processes. Once you understand why these people behave so irrationally, you can communicate more effectively with them.


Defense Mechanisms
Projection

About a year ago I received an e-mail from a member of a local Jewish organization. The author, who chose to remain anonymous, insisted that people have no right to carry firearms because he didn't want to be murdered if one of his neighbors had a "bad day". (I don't know that this person is a "he", but I'm assuming so for the sake of simplicity.) I responded by asking him why he thought his neighbors wanted to murder him, and, of course, got no response. The truth is that he's statistically more likely to be murdered by a neighbor who doesn't legally carry a firearm1 and more likely to be shot accidentally by a law enforcement officer.1

How does my correspondent "know" that his neighbors would murder him if they had guns? He doesn't. What he was really saying was that if he had a gun, he might murder his neighbors if he had a bad day, or if they took his parking space, or played their stereos too loud. This is an example of what mental health professionals call projection – unconsciously projecting one's own unacceptable feelings onto other people, so that one doesn't have to own them.3 In some cases, the intolerable feelings are projected not onto a person, but onto an inanimate object, such as a gun,4 so that the projector believes the gun itself will murder him.

Projection is a defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are unconscious psychological mechanisms that protect us from feelings that we cannot consciously accept.5 They operate without our awareness, so that we don't have to deal consciously with "forbidden" feelings and impulses. Thus, if you asked my e-mail correspondent if he really wanted to murder his neighbors, he would vehemently deny it, and insist that other people want to kill him.

Projection is a particularly insidious defense mechanism, because it not only prevents a person from dealing with his own feelings, it also creates a world where he perceives everyone else as directing his own hostile feelings back at him.6

All people have violent, and even homicidal, impulses. For example, it's common to hear people say "I'd like to kill my boss", or "If you do that one more time I'm going to kill you." They don't actually mean that they're going to, or even would, kill anyone; they're simply acknowledging anger and frustration. All of us suffer from fear and feelings of helplessness and vulnerability. Most people can acknowledge feelings of rage, fear, frustration, jealousy, etc. without having to act on them in inappropriate and destructive ways.

Some people, however, are unable consciously to admit that they have such "unacceptable" emotions. They may have higher than average levels of rage, frustration, or fear. Perhaps they fear that if they acknowledge the hostile feelings, they will lose control and really will hurt someone. They may believe that "good people" never have such feelings, when in fact all people have them.

This is especially true now that education "experts" commonly prohibit children from expressing negative emotions or aggression. Instead of learning that such emotions are normal, but that destructive behavior needs to be controlled, children now learn that feelings of anger are evil, dangerous and subject to severe punishment.7To protect themselves from "being bad", they are forced to use defense mechanisms to avoid owning their own normal emotions. Unfortunately, using such defense mechanisms inappropriately can endanger their mental health; children need to learn how to deal appropriately with reality, not how to avoid it.8

(This discussion of psychological mechanisms applies to the average person who is uninformed, or misinformed, about firearms and self-defense. It does not apply to the anti- gun ideologue. Fanatics like Charles Schumer know the facts about firearms, and advocate victim disarmament consciously and willfully in order to gain political power. This psychological analysis does not apply to them.)

Denial

Another defense mechanism commonly utilized by supporters of gun control is denial. Denial is simply refusing to accept the reality of a given situation.9 For example, consider a woman whose husband starts coming home late, has strange perfume on his clothes, and starts charging flowers and jewelry on his credit card. She may get extremely angry at a well-meaning friend who suggests that her husband is having an affair. The reality is obvious, but the wronged wife is so threatened by her husband's infidelity that she is unable to accept it, and so denies its existence.

Anti-gun people do the same thing. It's obvious that we live in a dangerous society, where criminals attack innocent people. Just about everyone has been, or knows someone who has been, victimized. It's equally obvious that law enforcement can't protect everyone everywhere 24 hours a day. Extensive scholarly research demonstrates that the police have no legal duty to protect you10 and that firearm ownership is the most effective way to protect yourself and your family.11 There is irrefutable evidence that victim disarmament nearly always precedes genocide.12 Nonetheless, the anti-gun folks insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, that "the police will protect you", "this is a safe neighborhood" and "it can't happen here", where "it" is everything from mugging to mass murder.

Anti-gun people who refuse to accept the reality of the proven and very serious dangers of civilian disarmament are using denial to protect themselves from the anxiety of feeling helpless and vulnerable. Likewise, gun owners who insist that "the government will never confiscate my guns" are also using denial to protect themselves from the anxiety of contemplating being forcibly disarmed and rendered helpless and vulnerable.

Reaction Formation

Reaction formation is yet another defense mechanism common among the anti-gun folks. Reaction formation occurs when a person's mind turns an unacceptable feeling or desire into its complete opposite.13 For example, a child who is jealous of a sibling may exhibit excessive love and devotion for the hated brother or sister.

Likewise, a person who harbors murderous rage toward his fellow humans may claim to be a devoted pacifist and refuse to eat meat or even kill a cockroach.14 Often such people take refuge in various spiritual disciplines and believe that they are "superior" to "less civilized" folks who engage in "violent behavior" such as hunting, or even target shooting. They may devote themselves to "animal welfare" organizations that proclaim that the rights of animals take precedence over the rights of people.15 This not only allows the angry person to avoid dealing with his rage, it allows him actually to harm the people he hates without having to know he hates them.

This is not meant to disparage the many wonderful people who are pacifists, spiritually inclined, vegetarian, or who support animal welfare. The key issue is not the belief itself, but rather the way in which the person experiences and lives his beliefs. Sincere practitioners seek to improve themselves, or to be helpful in a gentle, respectful fashion. They work to persuade others peacefully by setting an example of what they believe to be correct behavior. Sincere pacifists generally exhibit good will towards others, even towards persons with whom they might disagree on various issues.

Contrast the sincere pacifist or animal lover with the strident, angry person who wants to ban meat and who believes murdering hunters is justified in order to "save the animals" – or the person who wants to outlaw self- defense and believes innocent people have the obligation to be raped and murdered for the good of society. For example, noted feminist Betty Friedan said "that lethal violence even in self defense only engenders more violence."16 The truly spiritual, pacifist person refrains from forcing others to do what he believes, and is generally driven by positive emotions, while the angry person finds "socially acceptable" ways to harm, abuse, or even kill, his fellow man.

In the case of anti-gun people, reaction formation keeps any knowledge of their hatred for their fellow humans out of consciousness, while allowing them to feel superior to "violent gun owners". At the same time, it also allows them to cause serious harm, and even loss of life, to others by denying them the tools necessary to defend themselves. This makes reaction formation very attractive from a psychological point of view, and therefore very difficult to counteract.


Defense Mechanisms Are Not Mental Illnesses
Defense mechanisms are normal. All of us use them to some extent, and their use does not imply mental illness. Advocates of victim disarmament may be misguided or uninformed, they may be stupid, or they may be consciously intent on evil, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "mentally ill".

Some defense mechanisms, however, are healthier than others. A safe general rule is that a defense is healthy if it helps you to function better in your personal and professional life, and unhealthy if it interferes with your life, your relationships, or the well-being of others. Young children utilize projection and denial much more commonly than do healthy adults. On the other hand, "if projection is used as a defense mechanism to a very great extent in adult life, the user's perception of external reality will be seriously distorted."17

Defense mechanisms are also frequently combined, so that an anti-gun person may use several defense mechanisms simultaneously. For example, my unfortunate correspondent uses projection to create a world in which all his neighbors want to murder him. As a result, he becomes more angry and fearful, and needs to employ even more defense mechanisms to cope. So he uses projection to attribute his own rage to others, he uses denial that there is any danger to protect himself from a world where he believes he is helpless and everyone wants to murder him, and he uses reaction formation to try to control everyone else's life because his own is so horribly out of control.

Also, it's important to remember that not all anti-gun beliefs are the result of defense mechanisms. Some people suffer from gun phobia18, an excessive and completely irrational fear of firearms, usually caused by the anti-gun conditioning they've been subjected to by the media, politicians, so-called "educators," and others. In some cases, gun phobia is caused by an authentic bad experience associated with a firearm. But with all due respect to Col. Jeff Cooper, who coined the term "hoplophobia" to describe anti-gun people, most anti-gun people do not have true phobias. Interestingly, a person with a true phobia of guns realizes his fear is excessive or unreasonable,19 something most anti-gun folks will never admit.

Defense mechanisms distort reality

Because defense mechanisms distort reality in order to avoid unpleasant emotions, the person who uses them has an impaired ability to recognize and accept reality. This explains why my e-mail correspondent and many other anti-gun people persist in believing that their neighbors and co- workers will become mass murderers if allowed to own firearms.

People who legally carry concealed firearms are actually less violent and less prone to criminal activity of all kinds than is the general population.20 A person who has a clean record, has passed an FBI background check, undergone firearms training, and spent several hundred dollars to get a permit and a firearm, is highly unlikely to choose to murder a neighbor. Doing so would result in his facing a police manhunt, a trial, prison, possibly capital punishment, and the destruction of his family, job, and reputation. Obviously it would make no sense for such a person to shoot a neighbor - except in self-defense. Equally obviously, the anti-gun person who believes that malicious shootings by ordinary gun owners are likely to occur is not in touch with reality.21


The Common Thread: Rage
In my experience, the common thread in anti-gun people is rage. Either anti-gun people harbor more rage than others, or they're less able to cope with it appropriately. Because they can't handle their own feelings of rage, they are forced to use defense mechanisms in an unhealthy manner. Because they wrongly perceive others as seeking to harm them, they advocate the disarmament of ordinary people who have no desire to harm anyone. So why do anti-gun people have so much rage and why are they unable to deal with it in appropriate ways? Consider for a moment that the largest and most hysterical anti-gun groups include disproportionately large numbers of women, African- Americans and Jews. And virtually all of the organizations that claim to speak for these "oppressed people" are stridently anti-gun. Not coincidentally, among Jews, Blacks and women there are many "professional victims" who have little sense of identity outside of their victimhood.

Identity as Victim

If I were to summarize this article in three sentences, they would be:


(1) People who identify themselves as "victims" harbor excessive amounts of rage at other people, whom they perceive as "not victims."
(2) In order psychologically to deal with this rage, these "victims" utilize defense mechanisms that enable them to harm others in socially acceptable ways, without accepting responsibility or suffering guilt, and without having to give up their status as "victims."

(3) Gun owners are frequently the targets of professional victims because gun owners are willing and able to prevent their own victimization.

Thus the concept of "identity as victim" is essential. How and why do members of some groups choose to identify themselves as victims and teach their children to do the same? While it's true that women, Jews, and African- Americans have historically been victimized, they now participate in American society on an equal basis. And other groups, most notably Asian-Americans, have been equally victimized, and yet have transcended the "eternal victim" mentality.

Why, for example, would a 6'10" NBA player who makes $10 million a year see himself as a "victim"? Why would a successful, respected, wealthy, Jewish physician regard himself as a "victim"? Conversely, why might a wheelchair bound woman who lives on government disability NOT regard herself as a victim?

I would argue it's because the basketball player and the physician believe that their identities are dependent on being victims – not because they have actually been victimized, but because they're members of groups that claim victim status. Conversely, the disabled woman was probably raised to believe that she is responsible for her own success or failure.

In fact, many people who have been victims of actual violent crime, or who have survived war or civil strife, support the right of self-defense. The old saying is often correct: "a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged."

Special Treatment and Misleading Leaders

Two reasons for these groups to insist on "victim" status seem likely. First, by claiming victim status, members of these groups can demand (and get) special treatment through quotas, affirmative action, reparations, and other preferential treatment programs.

Second, these people have been indoctrinated to believe that there is no alternative to remaining a victim forever. Their leaders remind them constantly that they are mistreated in every imaginable way (most of them imaginary!), attribute every one of life's misfortunes to "racism" or "sexism" or "hate crimes", and dream up ever more complex schemes for special treatment and favors.22 These leaders are the ones who preach that the entire Black experience is slavery and racism, or that Jewish history before and after the Holocaust is irrelevant,23 or that happily married women are really victims of sexual slavery.24

Likewise, the NAACP is suing firearms manufacturers to put them out of business,25 and is especially opposed to the inexpensive pistols that enable the poor to defend themselves in gang-ridden inner cities. The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) proposed evicting anyone who dares to keep a tool of self-defense in any of its crime-infested housing projects. Jewish leaders, especially those in the politically correct "Reform" branch, preach that gun control is "a solemn religious obligation",26 contrary to the teachings of their sacred scriptures and their own history.27 Law enforcement agencies falsely teach women that they are safest if they don't resist rapists and robbers,28 while women's organizations advocate gun control, thus rendering women and their children defenseless.

Victimhood is good business for organizations that foster victim status. As victims, the members depend upon the organization to protect them, and the organization in turn relies on members for funding and political power. In the interest of self-preservation, these organizations work hard at preserving hatred and bigotry and at keeping their members defenseless – and therefore dependent.

Anti-gun groups love victims!

From my observations, pro-victimhood is a feature of all of the anti-gun special interest groups, not just the ones mentioned here. Every organization that supports gun control apparently wants its members to be helpless, terrified and totally dependent on someone else to control every aspect of their lives. It doesn't matter whether it's a religious, racial, ethnic, political, social, or charitable group. From Handgun Control, Inc. to the Anti- Defamation League to the Million Mom March, they all want you to live in fear. In this scheme, soccer moms are "victims" just as much as are inner-city minorities.

If these organizations truly cared about the people for whom they claim to speak, they would encourage safe and responsible firearms ownership. They would help people to learn how to defend themselves and their families so that they wouldn't have to live in fear. They would tell everyone that one of the wonderful things about being an American is that you have the right to keep and bear arms, the right to defend yourself, and how these rights preserve the right to be free.

The psychological price of being a victim

In our current society, victimhood has many perceived benefits, but there are some serious drawbacks. Victims tend to see the world as a scary and threatening place. They believe that others treat them differently, unfairly, and even maliciously – and that they are helpless to do anything about it. This belief, that they are being mistreated and are helpless to resist, generates tremendous rage, and often, serious depression.

But for victims to show rage openly can be dangerous, if not outright suicidal. For example, a battered woman who screams at or hits her attacker may provoke worse beatings or even her own murder. And a person who successfully defends himself loses his status as "victim." For someone whose entire identity is dependent on being a victim, the loss of victim status is just as threatening as loss of life.

So, unable psychologically to cope with such rage, people who view themselves as victims: (1) use defense mechanisms to displace it into irrational beliefs about neighbors killing each other, and the infallibility of police protection, and (2) attempt to regain control by controlling gun owners, whom they wrongly perceive as "the enemy".

Say NO to being a victim!

But no one needs to be a victim! Quite simply, it's not very easy to victimize a person who owns and knows how to use a firearm. If most women owned and carried firearms, rapes and beating would decrease.29 Thugs who target the elderly and disabled would find honest work once they realized they were likely to be looking down the barrel of a pistol or shotgun. It's nearly impossible to enslave, or herd into concentration camps, large numbers of armed people.


Communicating with anti-gun people
How can you communicate more effectively with an anti-gun person who is using unhealthy defense mechanisms? There are no quick and easy answers. But there are a few things you should keep in mind.

Anger and attacks do not work

Most gun owners, when confronted by an anti-gun person, become angry and hostile. This is understandable, because gun owners increasingly face ridicule, persecution and discrimination. (If you don't believe this, ask yourself if anyone would seriously introduce legislation to ban African- Americans, women, or Jews from post offices, schools, and churches. Even convicted felons aren't banned from such places – but peaceful armed citizens are!) But an angry response is counterproductive.

It's not helpful to attack the person you're trying to persuade. Anything that makes him feel more fearful or angry will only intensify his defenses. Your goal is to help the person feel safe, and then to provide experiences and information that will help him to make informed decisions.

Be Gentle

You should never try to break down a defense mechanism by force. Remember that defense mechanisms protect people from feelings they cannot handle, and if you take that protection away, you can cause serious psychological harm. And because defense mechanisms operate unconsciously, it won't do any good to show an anti-gun person this article or to point out that he's using defense mechanisms. Your goal is gently and gradually to help the person to have a more realistic and rational view of the world. This cannot be done in one hour or one day.

As you reach out to people in this way, you need to deal with both the illogical thought processes involved and the emotional reactions that anti-gun people have to firearms. When dealing with illogical thought processes, you are attempting to use reason and logic to convince the anti-gun person that his perception of other people and his perception of firearms are seriously inaccurate. The goal is to help him to understand that armed citizens and firearms are not threats, and may even save his life.


Reversing Irrational thoughts
The Mirror Technique

One approach that can be helpful is simply to feed back what the anti-gun person is telling you, in a neutral, inquisitive way. So, when replying to my anonymous e-mail correspondent (above), I might respond, "So you fear if your neighbors had guns, they would use them to murder you. What makes you think that?" When you simply repeat what the person has said, and ask questions, you are not directly challenging his defenses. You are holding up a mirror to let him see his own views. If he has very strong defenses, he can continue to insist that his neighbors want to murder him. However, if his defenses are less rigid, he may start to question his position.

Another example might be, "Why do you think that your children's schoolteachers would shoot them?" You might follow this up with something like, "Why do you entrust your precious children to someone you believe would murder them?" Again, you are merely asking questions, and not directly attacking the person or his defenses.

Of course the anti-gun person might continue to insist that the teachers really would harm children, but prohibiting them from owning guns would prevent it. So you might ask how using a gun to murder innocent children is different from stabbing children with scissors, assaulting them with baseball bats, or poisoning the milk and cookies.

It's important to ask "open-ended" questions that require a response other than "yes" or "no". Such questions require the anti-gun person actually to think about what he is saying. This will help him to re-examine his beliefs. It may also encourage him to ask you questions about firearms use and ownership.

The "What Would You Do?" Technique

Once you have a dialogue going with an anti-gun person, you might want to insert him into a hypothetical scenario, although doing so is a greater threat to his defenses, and is therefore more risky. You might ask how he would deal with a difficult or annoying co-worker. He will likely respond that he would never resort to violence, but "other people" would, especially if they had guns. (Projection again.) You can then ask him who these "other people" are, why they would shoot a co-worker, and what the shooter would gain by doing so.

Don't try to "win" the argument. Don't try to embarrass the person you're trying to educate. Remember that no one likes to admit that his deeply held beliefs are wrong. No one likes to hear "I told you so!" Be patient and gentle. If you are arrogant, condescending, hurtful or rude to the anti-gun person, you will only convince him that gun owners are arrogant, hurtful people – who should not be trusted with guns!


Defusing Emotional reactions
The "You Are There" Technique

Rational arguments alone are not likely to be successful, especially since many people "feel" rather than "think". You also need to deal with the emotional responses of the anti-gun person. Remember that most people have been conditioned to associate firearms with dead toddlers. So you need to change the person's emotional responses along with his thoughts.

One way to do this is to put the anti-gun person (or his family) at a hypothetical crime scene and ask what he would like to have happen. For example, "Imagine your wife is in the parking lot at the supermarket and two men grab her. One holds a knife to her throat while the other tears her clothes off. If I see this happening and have a gun, what should I do? What would happen next? What if after five minutes, the police still haven't arrived?"

Just let him answer the questions and mentally walk through the scenario. Don't argue with his answers. You are planting seeds in his mind than can help change his emotional responses.

The Power of Empathy

Another emotion-based approach that is often more successful is to respond sympathetically to the plight of the anti-gun person.

Imagine for a moment how you would feel if you believed your neighbors and co-workers wanted to kill you and your family, and you could do nothing at all about it except to wait for the inevitable to occur.

Not very pleasant, is it?

This is the world in which opponents of armed self-defense live. All of us have had times in our lives when we felt "different" and had to contend with hostile schoolmates, co- workers, etc. So we need to invoke our own compassion for these terrified people. Say something like, "It must be awful to live in fear of being assaulted by your own neighbors. I remember what it was like when I was the only (Jew, Mormon, African-American, Republican) in my (class, football team, workplace) – and even then I didn't think anyone was going to kill me." It's essential that you sincerely feel some compassion and empathy; if you're glib or sarcastic, this won't work.

Using empathy works in several ways. First, it defuses a potentially hostile interaction. Anti-gun people are used to being attacked, not understood, by advocates of gun rights. Instead of an "evil, gun-toting, extremist", you are now a sympathetic, fellow human being. This may also open the door for a friendly conversation, in which you can each discover that your "opponent" is a person with whom you have some things in common. You may even create an opportunity to dispel some of the misinformation about firearms and self-defense that is so prevalent.

This empathy technique is also useful for redirecting, or ending, a heated argument that has become hostile and unproductive. It allows you to escape from the dead end of "guns save lives" vs. "the only reason to have a gun is to murder children." With empathy you can reframe the argument entirely. Instead of arguing about whether more lives are saved or lost as a result of gun ownership, you can comment on how terrifying it must be to live in a country where 80 million people own guns "solely for the purpose of murdering children".

You should not expect any of these approaches to work immediately; they won't. With rare exceptions, the anti-gun person is simply not going to "see the light," thank you profusely, and beg you to take him shooting. What you are doing is putting tiny chinks into the armor of the person's defenses, or planting seeds that may someday develop into a more open mind or a more rational analysis. This process can take months or years. But it does work!


Corrective Experiences
Perhaps the most effective way to dissolve defense mechanisms, however, is by providing corrective experiences30. Corrective experiences are experiences that allow a person to learn that his ideas about gun owners and guns are incorrect in a safe and non-threatening way. To provide a corrective experience, you first allow the person to attempt to project his incorrect ideas onto you. Then, you demonstrate that he is wrong by your behavior, not by arguing.

For example, the anti-gun person will unconsciously attempt to provoke you by claiming that gun owners are uneducated "rednecks," or by treating you as if you are an uneducated "redneck." If you get angry and respond by calling him a "stupid, liberal, socialist", you will prove his point. However, if you casually talk about your M.B.A., your trip to the Shakespeare festival, your vegetable garden, or your daughter's ballet recital, you will provide him with the opportunity to correct his misconceptions.

If you have used the above techniques, then you have already provided one corrective experience. You have demonstrated to the frightened, anti-gun person that gun owners are not abusive, scary, dangerous and sub-human monsters, but normal, everyday people who care about their families, friends and even strangers.

As many gun owners have already discovered, the most important corrective experiences involve actually exposing the fearful person to a firearm. It is almost never advisable to tell someone that you carry a concealed firearm, but there are ways to use your own experience favorably.

For example, if you're dealing with an anti-gun person with whom you interact regularly and have a generally good relationship – a coworker, neighbor, church member, etc. – you might indirectly refer to concealed carry. You should never say anything like "I'm carrying a gun right now and you can't even tell," especially because in some states that would be considered illegal, "threatening" behavior. But you might consider saying something like, "I sometimes carry a firearm, and you've never seemed to be uncomfortable around me." Whether to disclose this information is an individual decision, and you should consider carefully other consequences before using this approach.

First-hand experience

Ultimately, your goal is to take the anti-gun person shooting. Some people will accept an invitation to accompany you to the range, but others are too frightened to do so, and will need some preliminary experience.

First, you want to encourage the anti-gun person to have some contact with a firearm in whatever way feels most comfortable to him. Many people seem to believe that firearms have minds of their own and shoot people of their own volition. So you might want to start by inviting him simply to look at and then handle an unloaded firearm. This also provides you the opportunity to show the inexperienced person how to tell whether a firearm is loaded and to teach him the basic rules of firearms safety.

Encourage the newcomer to ask questions and remember that your role is to present accurate information in a friendly, responsible and non-threatening way. This is a good time to offer some reading material on the benefits of firearms ownership. But be careful not to provide so much information that it's overwhelming. And remember this is not the time to launch into anti-government rants, the New World Order, conspiracy theories, or any kind of political talk!

Next, you can invite your friend to accompany you to the shooting range. (And if you're going to trust each other with loaded guns, you should consider yourselves friends!) Assure him that no one will force him to shoot a gun and he's free just to watch. Let him know in advance what he will experience and what will be expected of him. This includes such things as the need for eye and ear protection, a cap, appropriate clothing, etc. Make sure you have a firearm appropriate for your guest should s/he decide to try shooting. This means a lower caliber firearm that doesn't have too much recoil. If your guest is a woman, make sure the firearm will fit her appropriately. Many rifles have stocks that are too long for small women, and double-stack semi-autos are usually too large for a woman's hand.

Remember that just visiting the range can be a corrective experience. Your guest will learn that gun owners are disciplined, responsible, safety-conscious, courteous, considerate, and follow the rules. He will see people of all ages, from children to the elderly, male and female, enjoying an activity together. He will not see a single "beer-swilling redneck" waving a firearm in people's faces.

In my experience, most people who visit a range will decide they do want to try shooting. Remember to make sure your guest understands all the safety rules and range rules before allowing him to handle a firearm. If you don't feel competent to teach a newcomer to shoot, ask an instructor or range master to assist. Remember to provide lots of positive feedback and encouragement. If you're lucky, you'll recruit a new firearms enthusiast.

But even if your guest decides that shooting is "not for him", he will have learned many valuable lessons. He will know basic rules of firearms safety, and how to clear a firearm should he need to do so. This may well save his life someday. He will know that guns do not fire unless a person pulls the trigger. He will know that gun owners are friendly, responsible people, not very different from him. Even if he chooses not to fire a gun ever again, he will be less likely to fear and persecute gun owners. And who knows – a few months or years later he may decide to become a gun owner.

Why these techniques do not always work

You should remember that you will not be successful with all anti-gun people. Some people are so terrified and have such strong defenses, that it's not possible for someone without professional training to get through. Some people have their minds made up and refuse to consider opening them. Others may concede that what you say "makes sense," but are unwilling to challenge the forces of political correctness. A few may have had traumatic experiences with firearms from which they have not recovered.

You will also not be successful with the anti-gun ideologues, people like Charles Schumer and Dianne Feinstein. These people have made a conscious choice to oppose firearms ownership and self-defense. They almost always gain power, prestige, and money from their anti-gun politics. They are not interested in the facts or in saving lives. They know the facts and understand the consequences of their actions, and will happily sacrifice innocent people if it furthers their selfish agenda. Do not use these techniques on such people. They only respond to fears of losing the power, prestige and money that they covet.31

Conclusion

By better understanding advocates of civilian disarmament, and by learning and practicing some simple techniques to deal with their psychological defenses, you will be much more effective in your efforts to communicate with anti-gun people. This will enable you to be more successful at educating them about the realities of firearms and self- defense, and their importance to our liberty and safety.

Educating others about firearms is hard work. It's not glamorous, and it generally needs to be done one person at a time. But it's a very necessary and important task. The average American supports freedom of speech and freedom of religion, whether or not he chooses to exercise them. He supports fair trials, whether or not he's ever been in a courtroom. He likewise needs to understand that self- defense is an essential right, whether or not he chooses to own or carry a gun.


© 2000, Sarah Thompson.

Dr. Thompson is Executive Director of Utah Gun Owners Alliance, www.utgoa.org and also writes The Righter, www.therighter.com, a monthly column on individual rights.

Notes

1 Lott, John R., Jr. 1998. More Guns, Less Crime. University of Chicago Press. Pp. 11-12; Proposition B: More Security Or Greater Danger?, St. Louis Post-Dispatch. March 21, 1999.

2 Lott 1998, Pp. 1-2.

3 Kaplan, Harold M. and Sadock, Benjamin J. 1990. Pocket Handbook of Clinical Psychiatry. Williams & Wilkins. P. 20.

4Brenner, Charles. 1973. An Elementary Textbook of Psychoanalysis (rev. ed.). Anchor Books. Pp. 91-93; Lefton, Lester A. 1994. Psychology (5th edition). Allyn & Bacon. Pp. 432-433.

5 Brenner 1973. P. 91.

6 Kaplan and Sadock 1990, p. 20; Lefton 1994, p. 432.

7 Talbott, John A., Robert E. Hales and Stuart C. Yudofsky, eds. 1988. Textbook of Psychiatry. American Psychiatric Press. P.137.

8 "Kids Suspended for Playground Game." Associated Press. April 6, 2000.

9 Lightfoot, Liz. "Gun Return to the Nursery School Toy Chest." The London Telegraph. May 22, 2000. Kaplan and Sadock 1990, p. 20; Lefton 1994, p. 433.

10 Stevens, Richard W. 1999. Dial 911 and Die. Mazel Freedom Press. [Analyzes the law in 54 U.S. jurisdictions]; see, e.g., Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616, 618 (7th Cir. 1982) [no federal constitutional right to police protection.]

11 Kleck, Gary and Gertz, Marc. 1995. Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self- Defense with a Gun. Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology. Vol. 86 (Fall), pp. 150-187.

12 Simkin, Jay, Zelman, Aaron, and Rice, Alan M. 1994. Lethal Laws. Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

13 Kaplan and Sadock 1990, p. 20; Lefton 1994, p. 433.

14 Brenner 1973, p. 85.

15 Veith, Gene Edward, Jr. 1993. Modern m: Liquidating the Judeo-Christian Worldview. Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing. Pp. 39-40 [ m exalts nature, animals and environment].

16 Japenga, A. 1994. Would I Be Safer with a Gun? Health. March/April, p. 54.

17 Brenner 1973, p. 92.

18 Kaplan and Sadock 1990, p. 219.

19 American Psychiatric Association. 1994. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. P. 410.

20 Lott 1998, pp. 11-12.

21 Most American gun owners are not violent criminals and will not be potential killers. "The vast majority of persons involved in life-threatening violence have a long criminal record and many prior contacts with the justice system." Elliott, Delbert S. 1998. Life Threatening Violence is Primarily a Crime Problem: A Focus on Prevention. University of Colorado Law Review. Vol. 69 (Fall), pp. 1081-1098, at 1093.

22 Sowell, Thomas. 2000. Blacks and bootstraps. Jewish World Review (Aug.14). http://www.jewishworldreview.com

23x Wein, Rabbi Berel. 2000. The return of a Torah scroll and confronting painful memories. Jewish World Review (July 12).

24 Dworkin, Andrea. "Terror, Torture and Resistance". http://www.igc.org/Womensnet/dworkin/TerrorTortureandResistance.html

25 Mfume, Kweisi, speech at the 90th annual NAACP meeting, July 12, 1999. http://www.naacp.org/president/speeches/90th%20Annual%20Meeting.htm

26 Yoffie, Rabbi Eric H. Speech supporting the Million Mom March, May 14, 2000. http://uahc.org/yoffie/mmm.html

27 "If someone comes to kill you, arise quickly and kill him." The Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin. 1994. The Schottenstein Edition. New York: Mesorah Publications. Vol. 2, 72a.

28 Rape and Sexual Assault, Dean of Students Office for Women's Resources and Services McKinley Health Education Dept., University Police, University of Illinois; Hazelwood, R. R. & Harpold, J. 1986. Rape: The Dangers of Providing Confrontational Advice, FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. Vol. 55, pp. 1-5.

29 Lott 1998, pp. 78, 134-37.

30 Frank, Jerome D. 1961. Persuasion and Healing. The Johns Hopkins Press. Pp. 216-217.

31 Richardson, H. L. 1998. Confrontational Politics. Gun Owners Foundation. 1


Permission is granted to distribute this article in its entirety, so long as full copyright information and full contact information is given for JPFO.
Copyright © 2000 Sarah Thompson, MD
Published by
Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
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www.jpfo.org

I wish that there were more people with this obsession over self-protection. Does anyone remember the massacre at Luby's restaurant in Kileen, TX?

Look it up. It's a good case for encouraging CCW holders into a place of business.
Singular incidents prove nothing.

And I havn't complained about him carrying a gun, but carrying a gun with extra ammo clips in anticipation of some random firefight in the middle of God knows where. By your experience, merely brandishing a gun is a deterrent, he is advocating carrying around extra ammo clips in addition to the gun. So not only is he assuming you will be physically using it, but using it so much that you will expend two to three entire clips.

Singular incidents prove nothing.

And I havn't complained about him carrying a gun, but carrying a gun with extra ammo clips in anticipation of some random firefight in the middle of God knows where.
Except when they occur at schools, right? :rolleyes:

Except when they occur at schools, right? :rolleyes:
By your experience, merely brandishing a gun is a deterrent, he is advocating carrying around extra ammo clips in addition to the gun. So not only is he assuming you will be physically using it, but using it so much that you will expend two to three entire clips.

Singular incidents support nothing.

Singular incidents prove nothing.

And I havn't complained about him carrying a gun, but carrying a gun with extra ammo clips in anticipation of some random firefight in the middle of God knows where. By your experience, merely brandishing a gun is a deterrent, he is advocating carrying around extra ammo clips in addition to the gun. So not only is he assuming you will be physically using it, but using it so much that you will expend two to three entire clips.
Extra ammo is kinda like the American Express card. You don't want to get caught without it. Or like the flying expressions, 'altitude above you' and 'runway behind you'. But then planning and preparation was never a liberal trait. Arent' we talking 20 bullets or so total from a Mauser M2? That isn't exactly WWIII.

Like I said, this is the type of person I would give a discount to, were I to own a public place of business. I'd have to take it away on account of the bi-sexual business, though.

By your experience, merely brandishing a gun is a deterrent, he is advocating carrying around extra ammo clips in addition to the gun. I advocate carrying at least one extra... and I carry 2 6round speed-strips for my revolver. So not only is he assuming you will be physically using it, but using it so much that you will expend two to three entire clips. If (for what ever reason) you run out of bullets (or drop a faulty magazine, or whatever) if you can't reload you may as well not have been carrying a gun in the first place. An unloaded gun is of no use to anyone. I've had mags with bad feed lips, ones that wouldnt stay locked in place under stress, etc (problems you don't have with a revolver...) without a spare mag or two you are simply asking for Murphy to spring mechanical failure on you in a critical situation.

Singular incidents support nothing.Then why do people clamour for gun bans after school shootings?

If (for what ever reason) you run out of bullets (or drop a faulty magazine, or whatever) if you can't reload you may as well not have been carrying a gun in the first place. ?
No, what the fuck are you people doing that you need to reload in public?

Then why do people clamour for gun bans after school shootings?
To preven shooting red herrings in a barrel.

No, what the fuck are you people doing that you need to reload in public? Well, damn, I guess you are right. I don't need a spare tyre for my car either! Just what was I thinking?
To preven shooting red herrings in a barrel.
You mean like "Singular Incidents Support Nothing"? :rolleyes:

If there's one thing I've learned from watching anime, it's that my katana will always beat any caliber weapon aimed at me! ^_^

On the serious sidee, I've always been partial to the classic Colt .45, but I also like the Beretta 93R w/ three round burst. The Jericho .41 (aka. Baby Eagle) is also well-suited as a self-defense weapon. If you're looknig for overkill, there's the Casull .454. ^_^

The law of the bayonet says the man with the bullet wins.
When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Ammo is cheap; your life isn't.
It's easier to expend material in combat than to fill out the forms for Graves Registration.
Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons.
Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.
Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a big weaponand a friend with a big weapon.
In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the weapon.
Use a weaponthat works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
Someday someone may kill you with your own weapon, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
Have a plan.
Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR weapon.
Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
Don't drop your guard.
Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4."

Well, damn, I guess you are right. I don't need a spare tyre for my car either! Just what was I thinking?
So you regularly take your gun out shooting up entire clips at the mall, store, gas station, school, dry cleaners?

A gun is not a car. What the fuck are you doing in your average every day that you will fucking need a clip reload for? You yourself said you deterred several incidents by merely displaying a gun. Do you often dive behind cars and get into firefights? If so, you need to fucking move, or go to jail. This isn't fucking Half Life; you don't have alien beings running your ass down through poorly made "real-life" puzzles.

That whole list was made by a psycopath with a gun.
"Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. "
Which is why it is next to the last item in the list and the item above it says "have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

You are all certifiable.

No, what the fuck are you people doing that you need to reload in public?
This is kind of interesting. Why is a little preparation, i.e. carrying a concealed weapon, okay, but more thorough preparation, in the form of sufficient ammo, a bad idea?

So you regularly take your gun out shooting up entire clips at the mall, store, gas station, school, dry cleaners?

A gun is not a car. What the fuck are you doing in your average every day that you will fucking need a clip reload for? You yourself said you deterred several incidents by merely displaying a gun. Do you often dive behind cars and get into firefights? If so, you need to fucking move, or go to jail. This isn't fucking Half Life; you don't have alien beings running your ass down through poorly made "real-life" puzzles.
I guess you are intent on ignoring my comment about mechanical failures. Likewise, should i be unfortunate enough to have to shoot a thug in most circumstances it would be imprudent for me to run away. Being able to reload and protect myself and the crime scene until the police arrive is entirely plausible - much more so, in fact, than TV style shootouts. Without a reload my only option is to flee - and who knows what will happen to the evidence of justifiable shooting then? (psst, BTW, I worked crime scene investigation for the PD for a while. You don't think one of Thug's homeys isn't going to retrieve his gat if I split? You better think again.)

That whole list was made by a psycopath with a gun.Wasn't my list.
You are all certifiable.
You haven't commented on Dr. Thompson's article about just who is "certifiable" yet... I wonder why? :rolleyes:

All this reminds me of a joke...

A guy goes to a gunshop to buy his first carry piece. The clerk asks him what his needs are and the guy says he wants a reliable, lightweight semi-auto with a 50 round capacity, integrated lasersight, the recoil of a BB gun and accurate to 2 inches at 500 yards, chambered in .50 AE, and small enough to conceal under his wedding ring.

The clerk says, "well, we only have on gun like that."

And the guys says, "Its not expensive, is it?"

Wasn't my list.

You haven't commented on Dr. Thompson's article about just who is "certifiable" yet... I wonder why? :rolleyes:
You are quite certifiable, and the rest of what I can safely say are gun nuts. I don't know where the fuck you people live, but from the way you carry on, I can only assume it is a motor home in the middle of the projects in Chicago.

You are quite certifiable,Not according to my last MMPI... and the rest of what I can safely say are gun nuts.Guilty as charged. So? I don't know where the fuck you people live, but from the way you carry on, I can only assume it is a motor home in the middle of the projects in Chicago.
Actually, live east of, and travel through, Gary and Chicago's South Side quite regularly...

And Yet, the attacks I aborted were made on me in Anchorage Alaska. Go figure.

Besides, you haven't been around long enough to know what the fuck you are talking about anyway. Maybe you should read a bit more and play less ubercrack. You might find out that guns are not what video games and TV make them out to be.

Where do you live that you can carry guns? As far as I know, in NJ one can only carry if the gun is in the glove compartment and the ammo is in the trunk (or vice versa).

You might find out that guns are not what video games and TV make them out to be.
From what I see of your replies and Deep_Kimchi's, they appear to be exactly what they are on TV and in video games. That is, things crazy people carry around to start gun fights with each other.

Where do you live that you can carry guns? As far as I know, in NJ one can only carry if the gun is in the glove compartment and the ammo is in the trunk (or vice versa).

I could be wrong, but I think more than a couple dozen States in the US allow carry with a permit. Vermont doesn't even require a permit, last I heard.

Lots of places don't allow it though. New York, D.C., I think a lot of places in California don't permit it.

Assuming that carrying weapons in the first place is ok (which is another argument all together), I can see zero point in carrying spare ammo for said weapon. Granted, there's a possibility of mechanical failure, but even if it happens, do you think you'll have a chance to actually reload???
:sniper:
"Wait, wait, no fair, my gun jammed, give me a minute, then attack me again."

Where do you live that you can carry guns? As far as I know, in NJ one can only carry if the gun is in the glove compartment and the ammo is in the trunk (or vice versa).
I am licensed to carry a concealed firearm in Indiana, Washington, Florida, and any other states that have reciprocity to my permits.

No one can carry a gun in Chicago except the Criminals and Cops. I therefore do so anyway because I am far more likely to run into the former than ever see the latter.

Assuming that carrying weapons in the first place is ok (which is another argument all together), I can see zero point in carrying spare ammo for said weapon.And yet, some people like to have an unadulterated crime scene to investigate... Granted, there's a possibility of mechanical failure, but even if it happens, do you think you'll have a chance to actually reload??? Yes. If you haven't drilled for mechanical failure you haven't learned how to operate your firearm.

"Wait, wait, no fair, my gun jammed, give me 3/10 second, then I'll shoot you"

From what I see of your replies and Deep_Kimchi's, they appear to be exactly what they are on TV and in video games. That is, things crazy people carry around to start gun fights with each other.
And yet, I have not had to shoot anyone in 17 years of carrying a firearm on a daily basis. I wonder why?

And yet, I have not had to shoot anyone in 17 years of carrying a firearm on a daily basis. I wonder why?

This has nothing to do with what you're saying, but this old guy in Japan once tried to explain this phrase he used, translating to something like "show me your stance"...he claimed that, in the old days, people would give a wide berth to skilled practitioners of various weapon styles, even when they were unarmed, because of something about the way they carried themselves...like the scent of violence carried on them, leftover from hours in the training hall.

Maybe nobody moved on you because of the way you walk, or how you look around yourself. I dunno. The old guy was drunk on Kirin anyway...

And yet, I have not had to shoot anyone in 17 years of carrying a firearm on a daily basis. I wonder why?
Yet you advocate carrying around surplus ammo.

Yet you advocate carrying around surplus ammo.
Yes. For the valid reason(s) I cited - not to engage in multiple-reload firefights. (though in that very unlikely but hairy event, at least you would have some) Crime scenes MUST be preserved if at all possible - which means reloading, even if you never have to fire the gun again.

I really hate Murphy - it's why I tend to carry revolvers.

Before I got rid of it (for obvious reasons) I had a Star40 that was prone to releasing the magazine without warning after the first shot. It is far easier to retreive a second magazine than to bend down and pick up a dropped one.

Spare ammunition also balances out the "load" in your pocket or on your belt, increasing comfort. I suppose it would be better to downgrade to an old "brick" cell phone to balance out the 2lbs of the gun eh?

Stop knee-jerking and start thinking. In fact, it would be to your benefit to simply STFU until you spend some time with a knowledgable "gun nut". You may still not want a gun, but at least you would know enough to do more than blow smoke out your ass.

Yet you advocate carrying around surplus ammo.

It's better to have bullets and not need them than need bullets and not have them.

Yes. For the valid reason(s) I cited - not to engage in multiple-reload firefights. (though in that very unlikely but hairy event, at least you would have some) Crime scenes MUST be preserved if at all possible - which means reloading, even if you never have to fire the gun again.

I really hate Murphy - it's why I tend to carry revolvers.

Before I got rid of it (for obvious reasons) I had a Star40 that was prone to releasing the magazine without warning after the first shot. It is far easier to retreive a second magazine than to bend down and pick up a dropped one.

Spare ammunition also balances out the "load" in your pocket or on your belt, increasing comfort. I suppose it would be better to downgrade to an old "brick" cell phone to balance out the 2lbs of the gun eh?

Stop knee-jerking and start thinking. In fact, it would be to your benefit to simply STFU until you spend some time with a knowledgable "gun nut". You may still not want a gun, but at least you would know enough to do more than blow smoke out your ass.
The Brady Clones are a mighty impenetrable bunch. I think making an ass of himself is as far as the Pantsman is going to go in admitting he's wrong.

It's better to have bullets and not need them than need bullets and not have them.
Surplus ammo. That does not mean what is in your gun. That means what you are carrying around to reload your gun with.

Stop knee-jerking and start thinking. In fact, it would be to your benefit to simply STFU until you spend some time with a knowledgable "gun nut".
I will pass on hanging around with people who apparently get into alot of gunfights.

Surplus ammo. That does not mean what is in your gun. That means what you are carrying around to reload your gun with.

And a single clip always contains exactly enough bullets for every situation?

Man, if people think you're crazy for carrying two extra mags, i wonder how they'd react to my 2 extra mags and a back-up gun.

Glock 19 is my primary carry piece. 15+1 in the gun and 2 17rd spares. Glock 26 on the ankle with 10+1. I also carry a knife and pepper spray and am trained in unarmed combatives. I've got the entire force continuum in my pants.

Fullsize glock mags work as spares. If you're packing a glock 30, carry glock 21 mags as spares. Larger mags are easier to manipulate for quick reloads and hold more ammo.

As for sights, you want night sights on a defensive handgun. Thumbs up to meprolight.

For the people who are going to tell me i'm crazy, good for you, don't carry a gun. I won't look down on you for it.

And a single clip always contains exactly enough bullets for every situation?
If it doesn't, you might want something with a bigger clip.

If it doesn't, you might want something with a bigger clip.

There is a size limit to clips you know.

If it doesn't, you might want something with a bigger clip.
You obviously haven't been reading too into the knowledge tehy have been trying to pass. If you go back (in a minute I'll find the exact post) they said that weapons that have bigger mags don't hav ethe stopping power.

If it doesn't, you might want something with a bigger clip.

And exactly what would you recommend? It's interesting to note that most people who are opposed to firearms (Brady Bunch, Million Moron March, VPC, etc.) are all OPPOSED to larger capacity magazines.

Since you bring it up though, what is the difference between "something with a bigger clip" (which you apparently support), and carrying an extra (or 2) ?

there (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10095956&postcount=21)

handgun stopping power is a myth. Any good hollowpoint in a common duty caliber (9mm, 40, 357, 45) does pretty much the same amount of damage. As long as you meet the minimum of 12" of penetration you're good to go. The difference between all of the common loads using a good hollowpoint is 1/10th of an inch of expansion and 1-2" of penetration. Not enough to make a bad hit good or a good hit bad. Shot placement is key.

Handguns poke little holes. If you want to tear stuff up use a rifle.

I will pass on hanging around with people who apparently get into alot of gunfights.I am a "gun nut" who has gone 17 years without a gunfight. Most "gun nuts" have not been in gun fights. However, we are fare more knowledgable about our equipment than you seem to want to be. A true "gun nut" will safely show you the ins and outs of REAL firearms handling and then let you take an informed position. Right now you don't have one. All you have is knee-jerk propaganda and misinformation.

Basically, it comes down to this: If it's good enough for a plain clothes cop, it's good enough for me... some of those guys carry THREE guns, I advocate carrying only the one you are good with and some Murphy proofing. What's so unreasonable about that?

You, sir, are psychotic.

incorrect

psychotics are those who suffer severe mental impairment (known as a psychosis)... psychotics are likely to be those who suffer from schizophrenia.

Where do you live that you can carry guns? As far as I know, in NJ one can only carry if the gun is in the glove compartment and the ammo is in the trunk (or vice versa).
I tend to break that particular law fairly often.

Assuming that carrying weapons in the first place is ok (which is another argument all together), I can see zero point in carrying spare ammo for said weapon. Granted, there's a possibility of mechanical failure, but even if it happens, do you think you'll have a chance to actually reload???
:sniper:
"Wait, wait, no fair, my gun jammed, give me a minute, then attack me again."
One can duck behind the front end of a parked car, behind a mailbox, behind a dumpster, etc. and reload. It's not like you're ever going to stand still in any kind of fight. Mobility is important in all kinds of combat.

incorrect

psychotics are those who suffer severe mental impairment (known as a psychosis)... psychotics are likely to be those who suffer from schizophrenia.

On that note, I just read an anti-gun/anti-NRA article by a woman who claimed to have gotten a CC license after falsifying her permit and ignorant instructors. She claimed on it (the permit)that she had never been institutionalized. After a little bit of Googling, I found her city and several articles written by her about having been institutionalized.

I have since contacted her local authorities w/ associated links.

I also contacted the NRA about the alledged instructors.

On that note, I just read an anti-gun/anti-NRA article by a woman who claimed to have gotten a CC license after falsifying her permit and ignorant instructors. She claimed on it (the permit)that she had never been institutionalized. After a little bit of Googling, I found her city and several articles written by her about having been institutionalized.

I have since contacted her local authorities w/ associated links.

I also contacted the NRA about the alledged instructors.

The only reason that happens is because the government does not have the right to look into your mental health records. If you want to open up mental health records to the public....

Either way, she comitted purjury and should go to jail.

I am a "gun nut" who has gone 17 years without a gunfight. Most "gun nuts" have not been in gun fights. However, we are fare more knowledgable about our equipment than you seem to want to be. A true "gun nut" will safely show you the ins and outs of REAL firearms handling and then let you take an informed position. Right now you don't have one. All you have is knee-jerk propaganda and misinformation.

Basically, it comes down to this: If it's good enough for a plain clothes cop, it's good enough for me... some of those guys carry THREE guns, I advocate carrying only the one you are good with and some Murphy proofing. What's so unreasonable about that?

The unreasonibility is in his head. Remember the bit about 'defense mechanisms' in the article? I think those have kicked in, and no matter how much logic you use, it won't get through to him. I doubt God him/her/it/hirself/themselves could get through to him with a divine Mack truck hauling a tanker filled with dried concrete.

Since you bring it up though, what is the difference between "something with a bigger clip" (which you apparently support), and carrying an extra (or 2) ?
A bigger clip is more likely to scew up your draw and snag on a piece of clothing.

I could be wrong, but I think more than a couple dozen States in the US allow carry with a permit. Vermont doesn't even require a permit, last I heard.

Lots of places don't allow it though. New York, D.C., I think a lot of places in California don't permit it.
There are 35 states in the US that have "shall issue" CCW permits.

In those states, if you either pass a firearms course OR have prior service in the military AND you pass a background check (NCIC), the state in question SHALL (which means they have no choice) issue you a CCW permit.

Not all states have reciprocal agreements.

Wisconsin is next on the list of states to get CCW.

I might add that I live in Virginia.
If you are not a felon, and haven't been involved in any acts (including misdemeanors) of domestic violence, you can apply and the state SHALL issue a CCW permit provided that you pass the background check, have taken a state-authorized CCW class OR have been in the military or police before.

You can also carry OPENLY with no permit.

Wisconsin is next on the list of states to get CCW.
I heard it had passed the State Senate by a Veto-proof margin. There was a guy on Chicago Radio inviting the Wisconsin Criminals to Illinois to take advantage of the easier pickings.

You are quite certifiable, and the rest of what I can safely say are gun nuts. I don't know where the fuck you people live, but from the way you carry on, I can only assume it is a motor home in the middle of the projects in Chicago.

I can assure you of my sanity, and a motor home in the middle of the 'projects' of Chicago is quite ill-advised (Do you even know what the Projects are?). I live safely in San Antonio, TX near Lackland AFB, the "Gateway to the Air Force." My grandparents served in WWII and one served again in Vietnam. My other grandfather was a hunter and instilled gun safety and responsibility into my brother and me. I don't go waving my gun around at people, because when you have your sword drawn all the time, people will not want to approach you. Nor do I never take out my weapons, because a person who never draws his sword will have a rusted blade and people will not trust him during difficult situations. I apologise if that's confusing, I paraphrased from Hagakure. What I mean is, isn't it nice that some people take responsibility for the protection of the body politic so that others can bitch and moan about them being violent psychotics?

PS: I apologise for my use of profanity. Please don't hold that against me. Be well.^_^

By your experience, merely brandishing a gun is a deterrent, he is advocating carrying around extra ammo clips in addition to the gun. So not only is he assuming you will be physically using it, but using it so much that you will expend two to three entire clips.

Singular incidents support nothing.

The three most useless things to someone who carries a gun:
Trigger locks, enemies behind you, and ammunition left at home.

Dont bother with two extra mags--bottom line if you cant kill an opposing shooter in an urban situation with 3 rounds/ and he cant kill you--you guys will be gone.

I only have eight rounds in the mag, and I train for at least three simultaneous targets.

Maybe he prefers a bigger bullet. Not everyone is partial to 9mm.

I know I very much prefer my Colt .45, because when that bullet hits it's bringing a good amount of power behind it.

A 9mm feels like I'm firing a pee shooter.

I am done with this topic, you are all not right in the head.

I am done with this topic, you are all not right in the head.

Everyone's insane but you.

Everyone's insane but you.
No, I'm quite insane, but not in the invent scenarios where I am an urban commando way.

No, I'm quite insane, but not in the invent scenarios where I am an urban commando way.

Then you're not really insane are you? You are an imposter to insanity! Repent and burn, infidel!

wow!

Pro-gunners 1
Anti- 0

I love it when the the common sense side wins!

Do you?
Something with a larger clip is better if for some reason you need to carry around a few extra for whatever you have.

The magazine for the weapon is not called a clip. It is called a magazine.

I am done with this topic, you are all not right in the head.
And yet, you have yet to rebut anything Dr. Thompson said. Then again, that would require reading - somthing your response to your Math Final showed you a not so willing to do. Don't worry, some day you will grow up.

If it never happens, it never happens. But on the off chance that it does happen that you're in a shootout and you run dry, or your first magazine is bad and causes a malfunction, you'll die wishing you had brought extra mags.

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

From what I see of your replies and Deep_Kimchi's, they appear to be exactly what they are on TV and in video games. That is, things crazy people carry around to start gun fights with each other.

Where, where, WHERE did either of them advocate starting gun fights? NO WHERE! I have been reading from the beginning, and your total rejection of reality is getting infuriating.

Assuming that carrying weapons in the first place is ok (which is another argument all together), I can see zero point in carrying spare ammo for said weapon. Granted, there's a possibility of mechanical failure, but even if it happens, do you think you'll have a chance to actually reload???
:sniper:
"Wait, wait, no fair, my gun jammed, give me a minute, then attack me again."

Um, it doesn't take that long. And if someone is shooting at you, and you have mechanical failure, it's better to have another magazine and have a chance to still defend yourself then not to and be fucked.

I will pass on hanging around with people who apparently get into alot of gunfights.

ahem, you are talking to a gun nut who has never been an a gun fight.

No, I'm quite insane, but not in the invent scenarios where I am an urban commando way.

You're the only one painting urban commando scenarios, friend.

Are you using the Model 30 (sort of compact .45) or the full size .45 Glock? I used to have one. I'm a pretty substandard shot, but after some practice I could consistently put 10 rounds into a 2 inch group at 50 ft. For a carry gun, I think thats more than adequate (and the limitation was mine, not the pistol's).


Its a model 21 full size with the 10 + 1 mag capacity . I only intend to carry one extra clip . If I need more than twenty two rounds , I am in a place I should never had went to and am more than likely going to be fubar . I carried a Ruger sec. six .357 for years and got by with two speedloaders along with the 6 in the wheel so I figure I am actually three rounds ahead of the game . I am using cor bon .45 acp + P 185 grain JHP ..so outside of of stray elephants I should be fine .

I'm getting lots of input against the adjustable sights..most for the " hanging up " problem when bringing the piece into action . Also the recoil makes adjustable sights on a carry peice kinda not a good idea.
Practice with the fixed sights will solve any accuracy issues I might have , I like to line the sights up on what I want a hole in and use the adjustable sights to get that ..but practice can make up for the inconvenience of a different sight picture ..still getting to the point of automatically making mental adjustments the your point of aim in a "stressfull " situation is not ideal but just takes lots of practice..at about 15.00 for 50 rounds ..a little bit of extra cash .

Somewhat OT

At one of the shooting ranges in Philly where I've rented guns the glocks seem less accurate than the berettas. Is this because of differences in the quality of the guns, because maybe the berettas just fit me better, or because the glocks get rented more and may be more worn out? (I've been told that most of the young guys who come in to rent a pistol choose the glock)

I go to Blakinston st and Firing line . I used to compete in PPC and was training others in PPC and night combat and firearms safety . I shot IPSC with my old Colt 1911 and loved it but aside from a ruger P-85 9mm and a small S&W 9 mm I have always favored revolvers for a carry piece . Now days 6 rounds will not cut it with your potential adversary carrying anything from 8 to 17 rounds in the magazine and its just an extreme tactical deficiency , even if the "others " cant hit a barn . When the crap starts flying around you tend to be a bit " suppressed " and thats where the extra rounds and magazines come in handy , so you have the luxury of a bit of suppression of your own .
At any rate if you live in Phila. you know why I carry .

Yes. For the valid reason(s) I cited - not to engage in multiple-reload firefights. (though in that very unlikely but hairy event, at least you would have some) Crime scenes MUST be preserved if at all possible - which means reloading, even if you never have to fire the gun again.

I really hate Murphy - it's why I tend to carry revolvers.

Before I got rid of it (for obvious reasons) I had a Star40 that was prone to releasing the magazine without warning after the first shot. It is far easier to retreive a second magazine than to bend down and pick up a dropped one.

Spare ammunition also balances out the "load" in your pocket or on your belt, increasing comfort. I suppose it would be better to downgrade to an old "brick" cell phone to balance out the 2lbs of the gun eh?

Stop knee-jerking and start thinking. In fact, it would be to your benefit to simply STFU until you spend some time with a knowledgable "gun nut". You may still not want a gun, but at least you would know enough to do more than blow smoke out your ass.

I've learned to inore the ignorant or just plain idiots . Its much better for your blood pressure . Why would they even bother entering an informative thread about actual use of firarms just to spew moronic commentary unless they were imbalanced to begin with ?

Crime scenes MUST be preserved if at all possible - which means reloading, even if you never have to fire the gun again.

I don't get the bit about preserving crime scenes in relation to extra ammo. Can you elaborate?

I don't get the bit about preserving crime scenes in relation to extra ammo. Can you elaborate?

It means that if your gun goes click-empty, you'll have enough ammo to reload and sit on it [the crime scene] and make sure no one messes with it until the cops arrive. If you're out of ammo and you stay, you make an easy target and what you initially tried to avoid will happen anyway. If you're out of ammo and leave, friends of the guy who tried to do you harm will 'tidy' up the crime scene and you may go to jail for defending yourself.