NationStates Jolt Archive

In Australia Lebanese youths who fail to identify themselves with Australian culture and the Australian nation made a habit of harassing young women at the beaches and sparked riots. In France young Muslim men rioted for most of November. Why? Both of those places are fairly prosperous, ensure equal rights under the law, both are democratic. The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't?

I think it comes down to patriotism. In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant. We identify ourselves less by our religion, our ethnic background, or our socio-economic group than by our shared citizenship. Some people on this forum have criticized this as blind nationalism. They've asked me what the point of this "divisive" patriotism is. They've claimed that we can all identify as "citizens of earth" and members of one human nation. Well, that doesn't seem to work. It seems patriotism has united the USA and it's immigrant population in a way that France and perhaps Australia can't seem to manage.

Well you can still keep your culture, and your ethnic food, and your way of dress, and your music, and your religion if you come to America - and you can still be an American.

But, if you don't want to root for the home team, get out of the stadium.

What about those Rodney King (that was his name, right?) riots?

But, if you don't want to root for the home team, get out of the stadium.

Go America! Go Broncos!

/SouthPark reference :p

In Australia Lebanese youths who fail to identify themselves with Australian culture and the Australian nation made a habit of harassing young women at the beaches and sparked riots. In France young Muslim men rioted for most of November. Why? Both of those places are fairly prosperous, ensure equal rights under the law, both are democratic. The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't?

I think it comes down to patriotism. In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant. We identify ourselves less by our religion, our ethnic background, or our socio-economic group than by our shared citizenship. Some people on this forum have criticized this as blind nationalism. They've asked me what the point of this "divisive" patriotism is. They've claimed that we can all identify as "citizens of earth" and members of one human nation. Well, that doesn't seem to work. It seems patriotism has united the USA and it's immigrant population in a way that France and perhaps Australia can't seem to manage.

I think you're probably right, and that the emotive framing of your opinion will likely generate debate, as planned (presumably! :p)

In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant.

Actually, about 30 million of us see ourselves as Texan first. ;)

What about those Rodney King (that was his name, right?) riots?

That was a poverty issue more than anything.

That was a poverty issue more than anything.
You don't think the riots in France were poverty related more than anything?

The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't? No...the riots are confined to your other populations. What are Australia and France doing that you aren't?:p

What about those Rodney King (that was his name, right?) riots?
It was more of an expression of outrage for what was seen as a continuation of the oppression of black people by LAPD plus the opportunistic gang members stirring up trouble and looting than any protest against the nation as a whole. They ended quickly and the neighborhood was rebuilt. Also the riots were limited to a small area. It's not as if black people throughout the country decided to rise up because they hate America.

In Australia Lebanese youths who fail to identify themselves with Australian culture and the Australian nation made a habit of harassing young women at the beaches and sparked riots. In France young Muslim men rioted for most of November. Why? Both of those places are fairly prosperous, ensure equal rights under the law, both are democratic. The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't?

I think it comes down to patriotism. In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant. We identify ourselves less by our religion, our ethnic background, or our socio-economic group than by our shared citizenship. Some people on this forum have criticized this as blind nationalism. They've asked me what the point of this "divisive" patriotism is. They've claimed that we can all identify as "citizens of earth" and members of one human nation. Well, that doesn't seem to work. It seems patriotism has united the USA and it's immigrant population in a way that France and perhaps Australia can't seem to manage.


I seem to remember the LA riots a few years back...

Or are you trying to say that everything is fine in your society, just as long as the immigrants aren't rioting?

Actually, about 30 million of us see ourselves as Texan first. ;)
That's ok. You're outnumbered and we can always hand you back to Mexico if it comes to that.

One four-day riot over a decade ago is now evidence of American cultural incohesion? :confused:

You don't think the riots in France were poverty related more than anything?

I don't know. I pay very, very little attention to France.

Actually, about 30 million of us see ourselves as Texan first. ;)
Texas yuck.............

sorry, proud to be an Okie (although I am not actually from Muskogee)

That's ok. You're outnumbered and we can always hand you back to Mexico if it comes to that.

Santa Anna will be pleased.

No...the riots are confined to your other populations. What are Australia and France doing that you aren't?:p
We don't get big riots. Some riots by drunk sports fans, maybe one or two political ones with years between them that aren't aimed at America, but at a local Police department for doing something racist. Our riots are confined to the cities where the local PD needs to be given a wake up call and are often just an opportunity for miscreants to loot.

Oh, and it's not like the non-Lebanese Australians were simply 'victims' of immigrant violence. Groups of Australians went looking for trouble, and other groups were willing to give it to them. Then, a bunch of people who looked 'middle eastern' were beaten by groups of people. Frankly, if a bunch of drunken idiots decided to go on a First Nations 'hunt' because some native gang members did something bad, and that sparked a bunch more drunken idiots decided to target anyone who looked native, I'd be bloody well rising up too.

I seem to remember the LA riots a few years back...

Or are you trying to say that everything is fine in your society, just as long as the immigrants aren't rioting?
Nobody can say that everything is fine in any nation, but why can't you admit that the US keeps it's population united better than many other nations? Is it beyond your power to admit that we do anything right?

One four-day riot over a decade ago is now evidence of American cultural incohesion? :confused:
To anyone outside of the US who hasn't lived here for a while, and especially if they are from Canada or the EU, the US is a place where Rosa Parks still sits in the back of the bus, blacks are rioting in the street every day, school children are gunning down their classmates at a rate that would make an Iraqi insurgent feel proud, Muslims are hanging from street lamps, and Republican fat cats drive up and down the street in their limos, pointing out Democrats to be arrested by the secret police. Meanwhile, members of MoveOn hide in their basement, and communicate with the outside world via the Internet, which is monitored by the NSA.

Oh, and it's not like the non-Lebanese Australians were simply 'victims' of immigrant violence. Groups of Australians went looking for trouble, and other groups were willing to give it to them. Then, a bunch of people who looked 'middle eastern' were beaten by groups of people. Frankly, if a bunch of drunken idiots decided to go on a First Nations 'hunt' because some native gang members did something bad, and that sparked a bunch more drunken idiots decided to target anyone who looked native, I'd be bloody well rising up too.

Wait a minute .... Australians drink? :eek: :confused:

Hmmmm, I doubt that the Australian or French can be blamed on a lack of patriotism among the Lebanese or Muslims. After all, the fact that there was a "reclaim the beach" day points to the fact that the local Australians didn't see the Lebanese as Australian. After that it's just been tit for tat.

The French riots had more to do with a oppressive police policy and poverty among the Islamic types.

To anyone outside of the US who hasn't lived here for a while, and especially if they are from Canada or the EU, the US is a place where Rosa Parks still sits in the back of the bus, blacks are rioting in the street every day, school children are gunning down their classmates at a rate that would make an Iraqi insurgent feel proud, Muslims are hanging from street lamps, and Republican fat cats drive up and down the street in their limos, pointing out Democrats to be arrested by the secret police. Meanwhile, members of MoveOn hide in their basement, and communicate with the outside world via the Internet, which is monitored by the NSA.

*wipes away tear*
God bless America ... Laaand that I loooove!

Nobody can say that everything is fine in any nation, but why can't you admit that the US keeps it's population united better than many other nations? Is it beyond your power to admit that we do anything right?
I think you're taking one example, making it into something it isn't (entirely the fault of 'immigrants'), and then ignoring the other divisions in your own society so that you can say you're doing better than Australia and France. So your huge immigrant population hasn't rioted. Yet. And somehow that means everything is fine and dandy? What about the smoldering issue of 'illegal aliens' from Latin America? As long as it doesn't turn into full-on rioting, the hatred isn't there (yes, sometimes going both ways?).

We don't get big riots. Some riots by drunk sports fans, maybe one or two political ones with years between them that aren't aimed at America, but at a local Police department for doing something racist. Our riots are confined to the cities where the local PD needs to be given a wake up call and are often just an opportunity for miscreants to loot.
Sorry...how were these riots aimed at Australia? Seems to me, the idiocy went both ways, and was based more on (often mistaken) ethnicity than "We hate Australia".

I think you're taking one example, making it into something it isn't (entirely the fault of 'immigrants'), and then ignoring the other divisions in your own society so that you can say you're doing better than Australia and France. So your huge immigrant population hasn't rioted. Yet. And somehow that means everything is fine and dandy? What about the smoldering issue of 'illegal aliens' from Latin America? As long as it doesn't turn into full-on rioting, the hatred isn't there (yes, sometimes going both ways?).
I live in a town full of illegal aliens from Latin America. They are doing rather well, economically, and essentially run a town in an affluent suburb of Washington, D.C.

If they are unhappy, then they must want a lot more than their own homes, shopping malls (that cater to them), cars, their own businesses, good schools, local political power, etc.

Hmmmm, I doubt that the Australian or French can be blamed on a lack of patriotism ...

I don't know that 'patriotism' is exactly the right word to use for 'why the US doesn't have as many race riots as might be expected', but it is a good shorthand; a culture of immigrant integration combined with situations to aid this, mibbe?

USians, help me out here!

To the OP:

Correlation is not causation.

The USA is highly patriotic.
The USA has very few immigrant riots.

These are mutually exclusive events. They have nothing to do with each other. I'll show you:

Canada has very little patriotic fervor.
Canada has very few immigrant riots.

Nuff said

I think you're taking one example, making it into something it isn't (entirely the fault of 'immigrants'), and then ignoring the other divisions in your own society so that you can say you're doing better than Australia and France. So your huge immigrant population hasn't rioted. Yet. And somehow that means everything is fine and dandy? What about the smoldering issue of 'illegal aliens' from Latin America? As long as it doesn't turn into full-on rioting, the hatred isn't there (yes, sometimes going both ways?).
I spent the week end with Colombian and Venezuelan immigrants in Orlando Florida. (my weekend is Sunday and Monday because I always work on Saturday) They love this country enough to leave their native lands, learn our language, and bring a bit of their culture to us while embracing ours. I didn't see any hatred or discontent.

Sure there's some argument over illegal immigration, but that's not because the "dirty Mexicans" are comming in. It's because Mexican workers are entering illegally and altering the balance of supply and demand with regards to labor selling services to management. The argument only exists because of ILLEGAL immigration. Only a handfull of crackpots want to stop all immigration.

Sorry...how were these riots aimed at Australia? Seems to me, the idiocy went both ways, and was based more on (often mistaken) ethnicity than "We hate Australia".
The Lebanese didn't assimilate enough to tolerate the culture of the nation they immigrated to. They harassed the women at the beach. The Australian authorities didn't press them to identify as Australians first, rather than Lebanese or Muslim first, so they allowed the problem to grow. The Australian people who rioted were inspired by the cultural rift. The riots may not have been against Australia, but they were caused by Australia's failure to assimilate the Lebanese. Technically you're right that the riots weren't against Australia, but they were because Australia isn't a melting pot like the USA.

I live in a town full of illegal aliens from Latin America. They are doing rather well, economically, and essentially run a town in an affluent suburb of Washington, D.C.

If they are unhappy, then they must want a lot more than their own homes, shopping malls (that cater to them), cars, their own businesses, good schools, local political power, etc.

So, are you assuming that all those Latin Americans are illegal aliens? Because illegal aliens would have a certain amount of trouble getting mortgages, driving licenses, loans for cars, access to public schools, business loans, political power, etc.

They may just be legal citizens. (Some latinos are, you know)

To the OP:

Correlation is not causation.

The USA is highly patriotic.
The USA has very few immigrant riots.

These are mutually exclusive events. They have nothing to do with each other. I'll show you:

Canada has very little patriotic fervor.
Canada has very few immigrant riots.

Nuff saidThanks...that's what I was trying to articulate, but simply could not.

So, are you assuming that all those Latin Americans are illegal aliens? Because illegal aliens would have a certain amount of trouble getting mortgages, driving licenses, loans for cars, access to public schools, business loans, political power, etc.

They may just be legal citizens. (Some latinos are, you know)

Very few of them are legal. The public schools take you here regardless. The INS has admitted in a public hearing here in Herndon that most of the Latino residents are illegal aliens, and they plan to do nothing about it.

In Australia Lebanese youths who fail to identify themselves with Australian culture and the Australian nation made a habit of harassing young women at the beaches and sparked riots. In France young Muslim men rioted for most of November. Why? Both of those places are fairly prosperous, ensure equal rights under the law, both are democratic. The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't?

I think it comes down to patriotism. In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant. We identify ourselves less by our religion, our ethnic background, or our socio-economic group than by our shared citizenship. Some people on this forum have criticized this as blind nationalism. They've asked me what the point of this "divisive" patriotism is. They've claimed that we can all identify as "citizens of earth" and members of one human nation. Well, that doesn't seem to work. It seems patriotism has united the USA and it's immigrant population in a way that France and perhaps Australia can't seem to manage.


Are you insane sir??

You actually think America has never had any race riots or any racial conflict?

Read a history book or website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/1/newsid_2538000/2538169.stm

http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/resources/pdf/hs_es_urban_race_riots.pdf

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/america/racism.htm

http://blackhistorypages.com/Slavery/

christ....:rolleyes:

Are you insane sir??

You actually think America has never had any race riots or any racial conflict?

Read a history book or website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/1/newsid_2538000/2538169.stm

http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/resources/pdf/hs_es_urban_race_riots.pdf

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/america/racism.htm

http://blackhistorypages.com/Slavery/

christ....:rolleyes:


You're looking at the past... try looking at current events.

I spent the week end with Colombian and Venezuelan immigrants in Orlando Florida. (my weekend is Sunday and Monday because I always work on Saturday) They love this country enough to leave their native lands, learn our language, and bring a bit of their culture to us while embracing ours. I didn't see any hatred or discontent. Yes, and you can say the same about many ethnic groups, moving to and living in any country, not just yours....so? And you don't see any hatred or discontent? Wow. How nice. I also try to stay out of the ghettos, where poverty, regardless of ethnicity leads to all sorts of hatred and discontent. It also allows me to think my country is more wondeful than others.

Sure there's some argument over illegal immigration, but that's not because the "dirty Mexicans" are comming in. It's because Mexican workers are entering illegally and altering the balance of supply and demand with regards to labor selling services to management. The argument only exists because of ILLEGAL immigration. Only a handfull of crackpots want to stop all immigration.Whatever your arguments are about illegal immigration, the fact remains that there is tension there, and at some point, that tension is likely to come to a head. Nor did I ever once mention legal immigration...though I have no doubt that plenty of legal immigrants get thought of as illegals too...I mean...unless you're wearing a sign, how do you tell a legal latino from an illegal one? And...damn...I lost my train of thought. But the point is, as Gift of God said, *x* does not equal *y*. I really don't think that US 'patriotism' ensures that societal harmony. Nor do I think such harmony exists.

But, if you don't want to root for the home team, get out of the stadium.

Amen.

So pack your bags, commies! :p

We don't get big riots. Some riots by drunk sports fans, maybe one or two political ones with years between them that aren't aimed at America, but at a local Police department for doing something racist. Our riots are confined to the cities where the local PD needs to be given a wake up call and are often just an opportunity for miscreants to loot.

Or when your local team wins the Superbowl/ World Series/ NBA Finals

You're looking at the past... try looking at current events.
We all know that those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it...but people sure are shy of looking at the past when it doesn't say good things about them...people were patriotic back then too...so has the flavour of your patriotism changed or something?

We all know that those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it...but people sure are shy of looking at the past when it doesn't say good things about them...
I'm not shy of looking at it - we're bombarded by it all through our compulsory education years here in the US.

What I object to is the characterization that most people outside the US give us - that absolutely nothing has improved, and that Rosa Parks is still riding in the back of the bus.

There's no race riots in much of that filthy land of unamerica, and not many other places have the same obsession with how perfect their country is and how others are all inferior. Except, possibly, France.

We all know that those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it...but people sure are shy of looking at the past when it doesn't say good things about them...people were patriotic back then too...so has the flavour of your patriotism changed or something?


Actually, a fair number of people in this country don't know that, so the mistakes keep getting made. As for patriotism, well yes, Americans tend to think of themselves as Americans first. The problem is they don't necessarily theink of their fellow Americans as Americans first, and tend to lable them in other ways.

...I mean...unless you're wearing a sign, how do you tell a legal latino from an illegal one?...

by the level of english they command. If they say "i don't speak english" in broken english. then they're most likely illegal. You hafta comprehend english to be able to get into America.... but then. i could be wrong :P all hearsay

Are you insane sir??

You actually think America has never had any race riots or any racial conflict?

Read a history book or website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/1/newsid_2538000/2538169.stm

http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/resources/pdf/hs_es_urban_race_riots.pdf

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/america/racism.htm

http://blackhistorypages.com/Slavery/

christ....:rolleyes:
Did I ever state that we've never had race riots? No, I didn't. The USA was quite racist for some time. We've got that mostly under control.

I said that our immigrants don't tend to riot, rather they tend to integrate into our society and become Americans. Way to change the subject.

Nobody can say that everything is fine in any nation, but why can't you admit that the US keeps it's population united better than many other nations? Is it beyond your power to admit that we do anything right?

That's not what I'm saying. Integration of immigrants has a long history in the US and has worked brilliantly.

However, I don't think this has much to do with patriotism, which normally serves to keep groups seperate rather than to integrate them.
Secondly, while the integration worked examplary in the US, its concept can't just be copied over to places like Europe. The US started out as a rather blank sheet, both historically and culturally, so everybody who came found a bit of white he or she could put their colour on. Europe, to stick to the example, is a sheet that has been overcoloured and overwritten so many times, there is hardly a bit of white left on it.

Yes, and you can say the same about many ethnic groups, moving to and living in any country, not just yours....so? And you don't see any hatred or discontent? Wow. How nice. I also try to stay out of the ghettos, where poverty, regardless of ethnicity leads to all sorts of hatred and discontent. It also allows me to think my country is more wondeful than others.

Whatever your arguments are about illegal immigration, the fact remains that there is tension there, and at some point, that tension is likely to come to a head. Nor did I ever once mention legal immigration...though I have no doubt that plenty of legal immigrants get thought of as illegals too...I mean...unless you're wearing a sign, how do you tell a legal latino from an illegal one? And...damn...I lost my train of thought. But the point is, as Gift of God said, *x* does not equal *y*. I really don't think that US 'patriotism' ensures that societal harmony. Nor do I think such harmony exists.
I don't tend to stay out of the ghettos. Some of my friends live in them. Still I don't hear them badmouthing the country, although they don't think much of the fatcats who are sending our jobs overseas. Can't blame them for that.

You're looking at the past... try looking at current events.

Im simply saying that his idea of America handling people of foreign backround better is completely false. Yes now things are relatively calm between everyone of different backround; but ask yourself how long did it take America to come to this state? several hundred years...after the genocide of native americans,enslavement of africans, harrassment of every single new immigrant group that entered the United States(including white immigrants) and after all that finally the United States ceased to treat people of foreign backround harshly. In the end I would say that America has handled people of different backround worse then any other nation in the planet.

The problems ocurring in France are a direct result of the foreigners(of non-European backround) being relatively new in France, most of them are only 2nd or 3rd generation citizens in France. In the coming years we shall see if France handles foreigners better then the United States did.

Or when your local team wins the Superbowl/ World Series/ NBA Finals
Yeah, that happens every time. In fact, it's rare a rare day when at least one American city isn't consumed by riots. We just keep it out of the news so we'll look good.

I'm not shy of looking at it - we're bombarded by it all through our compulsory education years here in the US.

What I object to is the characterization that most people outside the US give us - that absolutely nothing has improved, and that Rosa Parks is still riding in the back of the bus.
Hmmmm...weird...I've never heard anyone make that claim. But while certain things have improved, so have others deteriorated. Society shifts, regardless of what nation is being discussed. So official segregation is gone, but still exists in the overrepresentation of blacks and latinos in your prisons, in your ghettos...just like natives, being a tiny proportion of the Canadian population, make up one of the largest proportion of inmates in OUR prisons. Things are not as rosy in your nation as you often attempt to paint it...nor is it as bleak as others see it...but when progress is made in one area, other areas generally fall behind, and again, that's true of any nation, not just yours.

Why is there this need for people to constantly compare their nation to other's? I mean...if you're comparing the same things, perhaps it makes sense...like literacy rates, (if the standards are the same) or GNP...but some vague idea of patriotism and racial hatred? How can you possibly compare these things?

Actually, about 30 million of us see ourselves as Texan first. ;)

"The best thing about all the executions in Texas; Less Texans." -George Carlin

;)

We all know that those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it...but people sure are shy of looking at the past when it doesn't say good things about them...people were patriotic back then too...so has the flavour of your patriotism changed or something?
Absolutely it has. There was a time when patriotic people here hated the Irish and Italians getting off the boats. There was a time when "patriots" rode in white hoods to terrorize the blacks. Now patriotism isn't tied to race. Only to citizenship.

I don't tend to stay out of the ghettos. Some of my friends live in them. Still I don't hear them badmouthing the country, although they don't think much of the fatcats who are sending our jobs overseas. Can't blame them for that.
I've had this explained to me many times by immigrants both legal and illegal.

There's this idea that if you want to come to America, as soon as you put your foot on the ground here, and want to live the American dream, you're an American. Even if you don't yet speak English or never speak it well. Even if you still eat your native food (and you'll probably be able to find it). Even if you keep your religion. And most immigrants I've spoken to like the idea that in America, free speech isn't a dream.

You don't have to be white, rich, and Protestant with ancestors from the Mayflower to be an American - and the immigrants know it.

Yes, they love to badmouth politicians - a lot of them never got to do it before. But they love America because they are instantly Americans.

I don't tend to stay out of the ghettos. Some of my friends live in them. Still I don't hear them badmouthing the country, although they don't think much of the fatcats who are sending our jobs overseas. Can't blame them for that.
And do you hear these Lebanese (and others of middle-eastern decent) in Australia bad-mouthing the country? A bunch of jerks were getting their kicks harassing women at a beach, so another group of jerks decided to 'teach them a lesson' but apparently couldn't tell one dark-skinned person from another and decided to just bash them all for shits and giggles. Then, criminal elements of the first group decided to retaliate, pouring fuel on the fire, and general idiocy swelled and exploded. That somehow proves that immigrants in France and Australia bad-mouth their new homes? That's an awful stretch.

To the OP:

Correlation is not causation.

The USA is highly patriotic.
The USA has very few immigrant riots.

These are mutually exclusive events. They have nothing to do with each other. I'll show you:

Canada has very little patriotic fervor.
Canada has very few immigrant riots.

Nuff said

It's too cold to riot. :p

The problems ocurring in France are a direct result of the foreigners(of non-European backround) being relatively new in France, most of them are only 2nd or 3rd generation citizens in France. In the coming years we shall see if France handles foreigners better then the United States did.
Exactly. The exact same problems could happen in Canada, once our population begins to grow and the accompanying pressures build. Anti-immigrant sentiment in our country is not very high...but it's there. But we are a newish nation, and fairly spread out. I don't think we are any more immune to hatred an idiocy because of our policies than any other nation...it's other factors which seem to limit such issues.

And do you hear these Lebanese (and others of middle-eastern decent) in Australia bad-mouthing the country? A bunch of jerks were getting their kicks harassing women at a beach, so another group of jerks decided to 'teach them a lesson' but apparently couldn't tell one dark-skinned person from another and decided to just bash them all for shits and giggles. Then, criminal elements of the first group decided to retaliate, pouring fuel on the fire, and general idiocy swelled and exploded. That somehow proves that immigrants in France and Australia bad-mouth their new homes? That's an awful stretch.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10089475&postcount=30

The UK has never been an intergrated patriotic country in the same manner as the US.

We have a lack of UK sporting teams being that most are broken up into Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or English.

This also correponds to serious cultural, eductaional, religious and legal differences and in the case of Scotland a whole different legislature.

this before even getting to immigrants

and yet despite a complete disregard for some kind of scary american flag waving, alleigance pledgeing which always strikes me as a bit too much like nazi germany race riots are happily few and far between.

Maybe if everyone in america wasn't afraid of getting stuck on a plane and tortured in eastern europe you might see some more discontent in the good old usa.

Maybe if everyone in america wasn't afraid of getting stuck on a plane and tortured in eastern europe you might see some more discontent in the good old usa.

Generally speaking, unless you've recently converted to Islam, raised money for foreign terror groups, taken a trip to Pakistan or Afghanistan without being in the US Military, and changed your name to Jihad Johnny, you're not fearful of that sort of thing.

That's not what I'm saying. Integration of immigrants has a long history in the US and has worked brilliantly.

However, I don't think this has much to do with patriotism, which normally serves to keep groups seperate rather than to integrate them.
Secondly, while the integration worked examplary in the US, its concept can't just be copied over to places like Europe. The US started out as a rather blank sheet, both historically and culturally, so everybody who came found a bit of white he or she could put their colour on. Europe, to stick to the example, is a sheet that has been overcoloured and overwritten so many times, there is hardly a bit of white left on it.


A lot of problems in europe with regard to ethnic minorities or religious minorities in correlation with it stems from the (guestworker) immigration and naturalization problems. People who were brought here when times were good and no citizens of the wealthy nations would dream of taking jobs that were seen as inferior by many. The workers were brought here on special terms: their stay was attached to employment, their pay was not much compared to the other workers aligned with unions and benefiting from social security policies. Also, because many of the guestworkers had jobs that didn´t require much formal training and/or the ability to speak the language fluently, there remained a gap between these people and the natives so to speak. When after a few years some of the guestworkers were allowed to bring their families, the naturalization issue was still greatly ignored. Many of today´s second generation "aliens" are stuck between two different cultures; their parents often can´t read or write the language of the country very well, and this makes communication difficult between for instance school teachers who wish to point at certain troubling elements in the life of the kid and the parents.

If, in the past there had been enough sense in the politics of that day to stress the issue of language and smooth integration (not assimilation, cultural diversity is a great thing) a lot of problems with minority groups today might have been avoided.

Also, in the current climate of unemployment and increasing (ethnic/religious) polarization, many young people of ethnic minorities are left without a job and in a place were radicalization and rebelling become viable options for protest. Which is not to say there will always be people who riot for the hell of it, or for material gain (looting).

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Maybe if everyone in america wasn't afraid of getting stuck on a plane and tortured in eastern europe you might see some more discontent in the good old usa.
Actually, we've got fewer video cameras watching us, our police need to go through alot more hassle to get a search warrant, and we don't have laws limiting free speech, like English blasphemy laws and some European nation's anti-hate speech laws. Come and visit. We're actually pretty free to voice our dissent.

Oh, we don't really have any national sports teams too. They're divided by states.

Actually, about 30 million of us see ourselves as Texan first. ;)

And me and about 10 million other people consider ourselves citizens of Red Sox Nation first. :D

I think that DCD has used the wrong term - patriotism, with its allusion to jingoism and nationalism, isn't the right term.

But I think I know what he's saying. The term "American" is not a replacement for your cultural identity. It's like a wrapper, intended to augment your identity. You can "be" American and still be whatever you were before. It's not really multiculturalism, where you completely ignore being American and just be your original culture - and it's not assimilation, where you forget your roots and culture and become something else.

Being "American" is a complementary concept. And it brings a sense of belonging - you have now joined the ranks of people whose ancestors (or themselves) were thrown out of every decent country in the world. But by dint of that, you belong here.

You can't "be" French in that manner, as an example. If you come from Morocco, you'll never "be" French, because "being" French is not a complementary wrapper - you're either French or you're not.

Some countries have the complementary wrapper (Canada seems to work this way to some extent), but most do not. Most European countries definitely do not, and this is a problem IMHO.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10089475&postcount=30
The Lebanese didn't assimilate enough to tolerate the culture of the nation they immigrated to. They harassed the women at the beach.
No, THEY did not...a small group of Lebanese people did.

The Australian authorities didn't press them to identify as Australians first, rather than Lebanese or Muslim first, so they allowed the problem to grow. The Australian people who rioted were inspired by the cultural rift. Inspired? You know, you can 'press' your immigrants to be 'American' first, or 'Australian' first, or not, but that is not going to suddenly change their behaviour. A bunch of Lebanese people (who are mostly Christian by the way) decide to start harassing women on one of your beaches, and a group of people decides to take revenge...what would that be 'inspired by' I wonder? Oh...it wouldn't happen right, because your immigrants become cookie-cutter Americans, and there are no cultural rifts.

The riots may not have been against Australia, but they were caused by Australia's failure to assimilate the Lebanese. Technically you're right that the riots weren't against Australia, but they were because Australia isn't a melting pot like the USA.
Neither is Canada. When should we expect our riots?

At least you admit now that these were not 'anti-Australian' in nature. And they were NOT caused by the failure of the Australian government to assimilate the Lebanese...they were caused by one particular hateful group, and another particular hateful group clashing, and a bunch of innocent people getting caught up in the middle simply because of their ethnicity.

Neither is Canada. When should we expect our riots?

Never. As LG pointed out, it's too darn cold for riots.

Never. As LG pointed out, it's too darn cold for riots.
Awwww.

That's not true. We have at least a month-long window of opportunity each year...

Awwww.

That's not true. We have at least a month-long window of opportunity each year...

And there are no assholes in Canada. It's one of only a handful of asshole-free countries in the world. In a country where everyone is nice, what would there be to riot about?

In Australia Lebanese youths who fail to identify themselves with Australian culture and the Australian nation made a habit of harassing young women at the beaches and sparked riots. In France young Muslim men rioted for most of November. Why? Both of those places are fairly prosperous, ensure equal rights under the law, both are democratic. The US, however, hasn't seen those kinds of riots among our immigrant population. What are we doing that Australia and France aren't?

I think it comes down to patriotism. In the US, the idea that you're an American first is constantly stressed to every person, whether native born or immigrant. We identify ourselves less by our religion, our ethnic background, or our socio-economic group than by our shared citizenship. Some people on this forum have criticized this as blind nationalism. They've asked me what the point of this "divisive" patriotism is. They've claimed that we can all identify as "citizens of earth" and members of one human nation. Well, that doesn't seem to work. It seems patriotism has united the USA and it's immigrant population in a way that France and perhaps Australia can't seem to manage.

I have to say as a patriotic American, I disagree with your assessment. France is a welfare state and a HARD one to climb out of. Australia it seems it was white folks that were just holding a grudge against minorities.

In the US, people sink or swim on their own merits a LOT of the times due to the nature of our way of business. If a lazy fool doesn't want to work, he suffers financially. If a low income or just poor man who is ambitious enough to hold two jobs that take most of his time during the week comes in to our country, he can on his own merits manage that money properly enought to live better than most angst or lazy teens and adults.

Furthermore, patriotism here is different than just rooting for your home team. It also means being a statesmen and taking the personal responsibility to engage in protecting the republic or your community by getting involved in local or national government or at the least believing in the ideals that this country was founded on. Nationalism helps brew up morale, but it doesn't do squat to stop race riots. It has to do with local and federal economics that doesn't bone people over. The social contract if you will is basicallly kept by the government.

When it DOESN'T you have something similar to the L.A. Riots.