NationStates Jolt Archive

Stanley Tookie Willams has been executed.

Couldn't this have gone in any of the two Tookie threads already on the front page?

Couldn't this have gone in any of the two Tookie threads already on the front page?


Indeed. I'm surprised there hasn't been more thread merging going on.

I'm saddened that a murder has occured.

an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.

If I'm ever executed, please merge any threads about it.

If I'm ever executed, please merge any threads about it.

:p

I'm writing that one down next to my living will's Do Not Resuscitate order.. :)

I'm saddened that a murder has occured.


That's okay... justice has now been served for that crime... and the others.

Good riddance. Maybe now we'll stop having threads about it.

Is it official? I haven't heard anything about it yet.

I'm saddened that a murder has occured.

an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.

It's not murder, for the love of pete!

Are you sad for the 4 people he murdered?

I'm personally against the death penalty...I'd rather see a killer spend the rest of his life in a cold concrete cell than to see them free of that guilt by a medical cocktail.

I'm personally against the death penalty...I'd rather see a killer spend the rest of his life in a cold concrete cell than to see them free of that guilt by a medical cocktail.

Especially since he was attempting to use that guilt to stop other people travelling the same path he did...

I'm personally against the death penalty...I'd rather see a killer spend the rest of his life in a cold concrete cell than to see them free of that guilt by a medical cocktail.

You really think people who murder multiple times (up close, and personal with a sawed-off shotgun) are going to have a "guilt" problem?

Especially since he was attempting to use that guilt to stop other people travelling the same path he did...

Why didn't he say sorry for all of the blood on his hands?

Good riddance. Maybe now we'll stop having threads about it.

If it annoys you, why do you keep looking at them?

Why didn't he say sorry for all of the blood on his hands?


The murders? He's still claiming it wasn't him as far as I know. I'm against the death penalty, regardless.

You really think people who murder multiple times (up close, and personal with a sawed-off shotgun) are going to have a "guilt" problem?

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Give them life without parole and they'll certainly have a long time to think about those things.

If it annoys you, why do you keep looking at them?

Because I don't close my eyes, put my hands on my ears and shout "LA LA LA LA!" everytime something in the world displeases me.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Give them life without parole and they'll certainly have a long time to think about those things.

Yeah, a pyschopath will lose sleep over their deeds, on your tax dollar.

They break the contract that is required to live among the civilized (non-murdering), thus we carry out man's law, and send them for eternal judgement. If they changed their ways, fine, they will find peace in the Lord, but as mere humans, we can't judge the soul, just the flesh.

I'm personally against the death penalty...I'd rather see a killer spend the rest of his life in a cold concrete cell than to see them free of that guilt by a medical cocktail.

Yeah, let's make him a burden on the tax payers for 60 years (or however long), that sounds grand! :rolleyes:

Yeah, let's make him a burden on the tax payers for 60 years (or however long), that sounds grand! :rolleyes:

What about the drunk drivers, rapists, and simple theives? Are they not a burden on the tax payers?

What about the drunk drivers, rapists, and simple theives? Are they not a burden on the tax payers?

Drunk drivers, child molesters, and rapists should be rubbed out as well. Simple thieves are another story, as their crimes don't destroy lives.

Yeah, let's make him a burden on the tax payers for 60 years (or however long), that sounds grand! :rolleyes:
See, this is why mutilple threads on the same subject are a pain in the ass. From one of the many-


Something to consider-


A 1993 Duke University study showed that the death penalty in North Carolina costs 2.16 million dollars more per execution than a non-death penalty murder trial. Research in other states indicates executions are three to six times more costly than life imprisonment. In 1999, the New Mexico State Public Defender Department estimated the state would save $1 to 2.5 million dollars per year on Public Defender costs alone if the death penalty was replaced with an alternative sentence.
source (http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm)

Several similar studies here (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7)

Yeah, let's make him a burden on the tax payers for 60 years (or however long), that sounds grand! :rolleyes:

Hmmm... as far as I know, a conviction with resulting death penalty is alot more expensive than life in prison... besides, wouldn't it be nice to have some camps where they could work of their dept to society?:)

See, this is why mutilple threads on the same subject are a pain in the ass. From one of the many-


Something to consider-

source (http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm)

Several similar studies here (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7)

Which is stupid, when all you need is a sturdy gallows and a length of rope. Cost you a few dollars at the hardware store.

Which is stupid, when all you need is a sturdy gallows and a length of rope. Cost you a few dollars at the hardware store.

It's not the actual electricity bill of the execution chamber that's expensive, its the massive appeals and trial costs...

So?

How many wealthy murderers got the death penalty?

It's not the actual electricity bill of the execution chamber that's expensive, its the massive appeals and trial costs...

So - don't allow the massive appeals... simple solution.

See, this is why mutilple threads on the same subject are a pain in the ass. From one of the many-


Something to consider-

source (http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm)

"A 1993 Duke University study showed that the death penalty in North Carolina costs 2.16 million dollars more per execution than a non-death penalty murder trial. Research in other states indicates executions are three to six times more costly than life imprisonment. In 1999, the New Mexico State Public Defender Department estimated the state would save $1 to 2.5 million dollars per year on Public Defender costs alone if the death penalty was replaced with an alternative sentence. "

Several similar studies here (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7)

And, this is what is wrong with the situation. Everyone gets a trial, under the current system. Once you are found guilty of certain 'inhuman' crimes (such as multiple murders, child abuse, rape, etc.) they should do what they USED to do.... take you to a place of execution, and hang you by the neck until you be dead, dead, dead.

No mess, no fuss. Maybe you have to replace the rope every so often.

I estimate that the US would save millions, just by actually standing by the legal system they CLAIM works.

And, this is what is wrong with the situation. Everyone gets a trial, under the current system. Once you are found guilty of certain 'inhuman' crimes (such as multiple murders, child abuse, rape, etc.) they should do what they USED to do.... take you to a place of execution, and hang you by the neck until you be dead, dead, dead.

No mess, no fuss. Maybe you have to replace the rope every so often.

I estimate that the US would save millions, just by actually standing by the legal system they CLAIM works.

Come on at least pretend you know what you are talking about. Since the advent of DNA testing many guilty people have been proven innocent including some on death row. (some without DNA evidence as well)

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=292
They bothered to look up examples for me.

I am all for the death penalty but if you think all people who are convicted are guilty and we don't need appeals you live in a fantasy. I'm hoping that is the case and you aren't willing to execute the innocent with the guilty for the sake of money.

Ahnold will burn in Hell as there was a new witness that the defence had but Ahnold cared more about keeping what few votes he still has. Pity that now there is a very good chance that L.A. will burn too.

How many wealthy murderers got the death penalty?

Not many. Scott Peterson was well off, IIRC. Wealthy people do get better lawyers. But then again, statistics show that traits such as intelligence are also connected to greater wealth. And I'm certain there is a link between intelligence and a lesser likelihood of crime. You don't make money by stealing 100 bucks from a family of four and then getting imprisoned now, do we?

Not many. Scott Peterson was well off, IIRC. Wealthy people do get better lawyers. But then again, statistics show that traits such as intelligence are also connected to greater wealth. And I'm certain there is a link between intelligence and a lesser likelihood of crime. You don't make money by stealing 100 bucks from a family of four and then getting imprisoned now, do we?

Statistics also show that being squeezed out of a wealthy vagina at birth contribute to greater wealth as well:p . I'm pretty sure they have recently linked expensive education with intelligence as well.(And don't claim that IQ tests are objective in identifying only natural ability).

Statistics also show that being squeezed out of a wealthy vagina at birth contribute to greater wealth as well . I'm pretty sure they have recently linked expensive education with intelligence as well.(And don't claim that IQ tests are objective in identifying only natural ability).

Oh, I know. But it is a point that at least some of the reason wealthy or well-off people don't commit more crimes is because many of them may be downright smarter than some other people. I mean, it makes sense to say that stupid people probably do dumber things in the course of their lives, right? Wealthy people may be less likely to get the DP because, combined with other benefits such as education, fewer of them put themselves into that position.

I'm not a big proponent of the death penalty, but the death of a murderer doesn't really sadden me.

Come on at least pretend you know what you are talking about. Since the advent of DNA testing many guilty people have been proven innocent including some on death row. (some without DNA evidence as well)

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=292
They bothered to look up examples for me.

I am all for the death penalty but if you think all people who are convicted are guilty and we don't need appeals you live in a fantasy. I'm hoping that is the case and you aren't willing to execute the innocent with the guilty for the sake of money.

I'd rather if you didn't lower the debate to the gutter, my friend. I DO know what I'm talking about... there is a difference between 'knowing some innocent people have been executed', and thinking that makes execution automatically wrong.

The point is - the failing is in the JUSTICE system, as it is. You admit that people have been found guilty, when they were later exonerated on appeal...

How can this happen? If a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty, where is the necessary evidence coming from that is persuading a jury BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT?

The answer is - we are too ready to convict, on too little evidence, perhaps.

So - how about tiering the system?

How about a 'pretty sure' verdict, that allows imprisonment, etc...

And, a 'dead cert' verdict (like, when the criminal is certainly guilty... you know, like they murder someone ON prime-time TV... or a busy street, and get caught with the knife in the victim, and their hands still on the hilt... that kind of thing). And, execute the 'dead cert' criminals immediately. No appeals, no further incarceration... just a quick, clinical end.

What a damn shame. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html)

SAN QUENTIN, California (CNN) -- Stanley Tookie Williams -- the co-founder of the violent Crips street gang who became an anti-gang crusader while on death row -- died by lethal injection early Tuesday for the 1979 killings of four people in two Los Angles robberies.

Terry Thornton, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, said the unofficial time of death was 12:35 a.m. (3:35 a.m. ET).

Williams, 51, while acknowledging he had a violent past, had maintained he was innocent in the slayings.

It marked the second execution in California this year, and just the 12th since the death penalty was reinstated in the 1970s.

Williams' case set off intense debates over the death penalty and redemption, with celebrities, activists and anti-death penalty advocates saying his initiatives and anti-gang message from behind bars had proven his life was worth saving. He had even been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in Literature by an array of college professors, a Swiss lawmaker and others.

Seventeen reporters witnessed the execution and gave their accounts afterward.

The process of inserting the IVs to administer the lethal chemicals took about 20 minutes, with staff having particular difficulty getting a needle into Williams' left arm.

Crystal Carreon of the Sacramento Bee newspaper said Williams was restless during the preparations -- a sentiment echoed by San Quentin State Prison Warden Steven Ornoski.

"He did seemed frustrated that it didn't go as quickly as he thought it might," Ornoski.

A crowd of demonstrators began gathering outside the gates of the prison early Monday evening, with celebrities, activists and anti-death-penalty advocates pleading for Williams' life to be spared.

"I am saddened that we are continuing to demean human life by pretending that we are God and making determinations to kill other individuals for what it is claimed they have done," former "M*A*S*H" star and death penalty opponent Mike Farrell told CNN.

The execution process began at 12:01 a.m. (3:01 a.m. ET) in the execution chamber at San Quentin -- 34 minutes later, prison officials confirmed Williams had died.

The announcement of Williams' death was punctuated in the witness gallery by three of his invited supporters, who shouted in unison, "The state of Californian just killed an innocent man," as they exited.

Minutes earlier in the gallery, reporters said at least one of the three had given Williams a raised fist salute.

The execution went ahead as scheduled after the U.S. Supreme Court late Monday rejected a last-ditch appeal.

The high court's ruling followed California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's decision to deny clemency for Williams.

"Based on the cumulative weight of the evidence, there is no reason to second-guess the jury's decision of guilt or raise significant doubts or serious reservations about Williams' convictions and death sentence," Schwarzenegger said in a five-page statement explaining his decision.

Before Williams went to the execution chamber, the stepmother of one of the men Williams was convicted of killing said she felt "justice is going to be done tonight."

"I had faith that when Governor Arnold looked at the facts of the case that he was going to decide not to do clemency," said Lora Owens, whose stepson, Albert Owens, was shot to death in a convenience store holdup. "I don't like it being said it's a political decision. It was an evidence decision."

Williams had maintained his innocence since his arrest and conviction in the brutal 1979 slayings. He had denounced gang violence and written children's books with an anti-gang message, donating the proceeds to anti-gang community groups.

As Williams was being moved to a holding cell next to the death chamber Monday evening, his lead attorney, John Harris, had said the convict was "at peace."

His lawyers late Monday filed another request for clemency from Schwarzenegger, citing the statements of three new witnesses Harris said could provide exculpatory evidence. That request was also denied.

Protesters for and against the death penalty gathered outside the gates of San Quentin early Monday evening.

Civil rights leader Jesse Jackson, who visited with Williams, said Schwarzenegger decided "to choose revenge over redemption and to use Tookie Williams as a trophy in the flawed system."

"To kill him is a way of making politicians look tough," Jackson said. "It does not make it right. It does not make any of us safer. It does not make any of us more secure."

And Sister Helen Prejean, a Roman Catholic nun and a prominent death penalty opponent, compared the death penalty to "gang justice."

"Gang justice is, if you kill a member of our gang, we kill you -- and don't tell me anything about how you changed your life or what you're going to do," she said. "You kill, and we kill you. And that's what the United States of America is doing with this."

But Schwarzenegger questioned the sincerity of Williams' conversion to nonviolence.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption."

He added: "In this case, the one thing that would be the clearest indication of complete remorse and full redemption is the one thing Williams will not do."

Williams was sentenced to death in 1981 in the killing of Owens, a 26-year-old Los Angeles convenience store clerk, in February 1979. The clerk was shot twice in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun while face-down on the floor.

Less than two weeks later, jurors concluded, Williams killed an immigrant Chinese couple and their 41-year-old daughter while stealing less than $100 in cash from their motel. Part of the daughter's head was blown off in the shooting.

Robert Martin, one of the prosecutors who sent Williams to prison, said the courts "have scrutinized this from every angle and they've found that the evidence is rock solid." He questioned whether there was any moral equivalence "between co-authoring some children's books and the senseless murder of four people in cold blood."

"The books will live on," Martin told CNN. "We have many authors who have died, and their books are still in print. And if they have any good effect, that can continue. So I don't believe that that is a conclusive argument."

Williams' lawyers went to the Supreme Court after the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rejected an affidavit that suggested the one-time gang leader was framed for the four killings.

Gordon Bradbury von Ellerman, a jail trusty who had been held with Williams in the Los Angeles County Jail from 1979 to 1980, stated he was the cellmate of another trusty, identified as George "Roger" Oglesby. Von Ellerman states that Los Angeles Sheriff's Department personnel provided Oglesby with documents to aid him in testifying against Williams in return for reduced or dropped charges.

"I was personally aware that Los Angeles Sheriff's Department personnel would often provide information to these inmates so that they could help frame defendants for crimes," he said in the statement.

The San Francisco-based 9th Circuit rejected that petition Monday afternoon, arguing that Williams and his lawyers failed to present enough evidence of innocence to block the execution.

I don't get executions.

If the porpouse is to separate an individual from society, lock him up in solitary confinment, it is cheaper even if he stays there for life.

If the porpouse is vengeance.. well, your nation.

If the porpouse is justice, well, two wrongs don't make one right, and his death isnt going to bring back anyone

And all this assuming he was innocent

This is what... The 5th thread on Tookie Williams, and at least the second on the fact that he's finally been excecuted. There's still one on the front page even.

This is what... The 5th thread on Tookie Williams, and at least the second on the fact that he's finally been excecuted. There's still one on the front page even.
No, the other one on the front page is that Arnold refused clemency.

No, the other one on the front page is that Arnold refused clemency.


Page 2 then (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458988)

Which is stupid, when all you need is a sturdy gallows and a length of rope. Cost you a few dollars at the hardware store.
Thats what I always say as well.

So?

How many wealthy murderers got the death penalty?


tookie had the best lawyers and didnt need a dime. They represented him in an attempt to further their notariety.
Having money-or not having it isnt an issue.

And, a 'dead cert' verdict (like, when the criminal is certainly guilty... you know, like they murder someone ON prime-time TV... or a busy street, and get caught with the knife in the victim, and their hands still on the hilt... that kind of thing). And, execute the 'dead cert' criminals immediately. No appeals, no further incarceration... just a quick, clinical end.
There's no such thing as a "dead cert" criminal. There is always the possibility of evidence which hasn't come to light, or has been deliberately hidden, especially in the Anglo-Saxon adversarial system of justice.

And, a 'dead cert' verdict (like, when the criminal is certainly guilty... you know, like they murder someone ON prime-time TV... or a busy street, and get caught with the knife in the victim, and their hands still on the hilt... that kind of thing). And, execute the 'dead cert' criminals immediately. No appeals, no further incarceration... just a quick, clinical end.

Which means that Stanley Williams would never have been executed.

Ahnold will burn in Hell as there was a new witness that the defence had but Ahnold cared more about keeping what few votes he still has. Pity that now there is a very good chance that L.A. will burn too.
Over some dumbfuck gangster? Methinks God has bigger things on his agenda then exterminating an entire city everytime someone gets their just rewards.
Anyway, now that this guy is dead, we can all move on and realize that he never was that important in the scheme of things and news people can quit having to say "tookie" with a straight face.

It's not murder, for the love of pete!

Are you sad for the 4 people he murdered?
Or at least was convicted of murdering. When juries become telepathic, the death penalty will matter.

Stanley Tookie Willams has been executed.
Justice has been done.

Justice has been done.

Indeed it has. The will of the people be done.

This is more a question of race than a question of wealth. Racism is deeply rooted in American society and culture.

Here are a few facts:
- He was a founder and a member of The Crips (which was at first connected with the Black Panther party, but when Black Panther party deissolved they turned to crime), so he was a career criminal
- He maintained his innocence in the cases he was sentenced for. He was tried by an ALL-WHITE jury (Was that a jury of his peers? Since when is LA an all-white city?) and only a naive person can believe that there was no prejudice in the trial. He was convicted based on testimonies of five career criminals turned snitches, one of which was in a possession of the alleged murder weapon, the only physical evidence in the trial.

I think that he was convicted based on his notoriety, not based on evidence. He is probably responsible for more than a few crimes, including murders, but it seems he was convicted for the murders done by others.
If Tookie Williams was white, he probably wouldn't even be tried. USA is a racist country and while its judicial system looks good on paper, it is impossible to erase racism and prejudice from the judges' and the jurors' brains. It is equally impossible for the Austrian Nazi sympathizer Arnold Schwarzenegger to show compassion as for the racist US government to take care of the hurricane Catrina victims.
When the masks of the people who ask for the abolition of the appeals process fall, white sheets and hoods are revealed.
Finally, if Tookie stayed alive, he would continue to atone for his crimes by preaching against gang violence. But then again, it is in the best interest of the white Amerikkka that the "Niggaz" kill each other as fast as possible.

When the riots start, I hope they will target the white racist power structure in the city, including the city government, the police and the courts, and that the Black residential neighbourhoods will stay intact.

The will of the people be done.
Burn the witches!

This is more a question of race than a question of wealth. Racism is deeply rooted in American society and culture.



When the riots start, I hope they will target the white racist power structure in the city, including the city government, the police and the courts, and that the Black residential neighbourhoods will stay intact.


I know how fullfilled that would make you feel, however, they will likely just burn down the stores and businesses their mother's work in.

Its still quiet. I dont know you'll get you riot wish granted.

I'm saddened that a murder has occured.

an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
While I dont agree with his DEATH
Calling it MURDER is just using emotive language
It is legal it is by deffinition not murder

This is more a question of race than a question of wealth. Racism is deeply rooted in American society and culture.

When the riots start, I hope they will target the white racist power structure in the city, including the city government, the police and the courts, and that the Black residential neighbourhoods will stay intact.

It never happens that way, and fantasizing about it is inane. They always burn down their own homes and businesses, and for the next 40 years, no one wants to invest in the area, and the people left behind call that fear of investment in an area where people burn their own stuff "racism".

It never happens that way, and fantasizing about it is inane. They always burn down their own homes and businesses, and for the next 40 years, no one wants to invest in the area, and the people left behind call that fear of investment in an area where people burn their own stuff "racism".

Thats a very valid point, rioting achieves bugger all.

So by that logic the Salem witch burnings were not murders?

So by that logic the Salem witch burnings were not murders?
If it was legal nope ... it was killing yes ... it was despicable yes

But murder nope

Thats a very valid point, rioting achieves bugger all.
I've noticed that mass violence usually gets negative results when done by local citizenry.

A protest is one thing - but rioting frightens people away from an area for a long, long time - the more violent, the longer that investment stays away for a very valid reason. It also makes the protesters (even the ones who didn't riot) look like idiots on TV - because the news will portray ALL of the protesters as idiotic extremists who like nothing better than throwing firebombs and smashing cars.

A strike is one thing - but if the strikers get the reputation for being violent, they lose public sympathy and end up losing.

If it was legal nope ... it was killing yes ... it was despicable yes

But murder nope

I concur. Now, if someone made false testimony purposely, then they would be guilty of murder by manipulating the state to cause harm. But if all of the people truly believed the accused were witches, then yes, it would be legal.

Of course, the big difference here is that witches are not real, but Tookie's victims were.

I concur. Now, if someone made false testimony purposely, then they would be guilty of murder by manipulating the state to cause harm. But if all of the people truly believed the accused were witches, then yes, it would be legal.

Of course, the big difference here is that witches are not real, but Tookie's victims were.
Yup that would be using a tool (the system) in an unlawfull manner to cause a death

I can see how that would be murder (or manslaughter depending on the circumstances ...)

I know how fullfilled that would make you feel, however, they will likely just burn down the stores and businesses their mother's work in.

Its still quiet. I dont know you'll get you riot wish granted.

I'm not calling for the riots, but the prospect of riots is real. About 10 days ago the police broke up a wake in Southeast L.A. and arrested some people. It has incensed many people and police misconduct charges have been filed. Tookie's execution comes as the fuel to the fire.
What I'm saying is, if the riots do happen, and I think they will, I hope they will be organized and directed against the racist power structure, and not towards autodestruction.
Right now it's calm before the storm.

What I'm saying is, if the riots do happen, and I think they will, I hope they will be organized and directed against the racist power structure, and not towards autodestruction.

Racist power structure? Are there no minorities in public office in L.A.?
http://www.lacity.org/mayor/

1. Revolt against white racism by rioting and causing havoc in black neighborhoods
2. ???
3. Profit!

What's phase 2?

1. Revolt against white racism by rioting and causing havoc in black neighborhoods
2. ???
3. Profit!

What's phase 2?

They're obviously not underwear gnomes...

No, but if a riot does somehow occur, it'll happen exactly in that way. I mean, don't people logically riot? If I was gonna riot, I'd do it near something I hated. Not in my own town. If there is a mass incident, it'll be mostly black owned businesses and homes that will be destroyed. It does not to support one's claim of racism when you burn down more of your own stuff then your "oppressors" do.

Riot. Go ahead. We shoot rioters who threaten our families and homes. :sniper: I don't care what you think you are protesting, complaining about, etc. Your right to free speech ends at my life and my families lives. Period. If you have a problem with that, that's a darn shame. Darn shame I don't care. Rioters will latch on any excuse to burn, loot, whatever, and they don't care who they assault, rob, murder, etc. They are just as likely to burn a black owned tire shop as to drag a white trucker out of his rig, and beat him half to death....both happened in the Rodney King riots. Oddly enough, the Korean shopkeepers who were armed had no problems in thier neighborhood, but Cali has enacted draconian personal disarmament laws sicne then, so they will be as helpless as the rest. Gee, good thing I don't live in Cali....
Hey, there's an empty cell on Death Row! Vacancy, no waiting!

There's no such thing as a "dead cert" criminal. There is always the possibility of evidence which hasn't come to light, or has been deliberately hidden, especially in the Anglo-Saxon adversarial system of justice.

I'm talking about a degree of certainty. I use euphemistic language (like 'dead cert') because there can never be any absolutes.

However - if four witnesses, and I, happen across a rape IN PROGRESS, we are likely to be pretty sure who the guilty party is. If we manage to restrain that guilty party until enforcement arrives, and that SAME guilty party is held for the duration. If DNA evidence PROVES the guilty party WAS the guilty party, and another half dozen witness are found that can prove (maybe a tape-recording) that the guilty party was acting against the wishes of the victim...

Under those circumstances, a guilty verdict would have a very high chance of being the correct verdict, wouldn't you agree?

However, what I think you are arguing against (you mention 'hidden' evidence), is the corruption in the system... in which case I agree... the system IS flawed.

Which means that Stanley Williams would never have been executed.

Perhaps not.

However, one could argue that one murder might be self-defence... but three or four, with a sawn-off shotgun, is indicating a pattern.

Also - I wouldn't consider it a bad thing to allow for 'conspiracy' charges in this case.... Williams was instrumental in the formation of an organisation which has spent much of it's time dedicated to harm, of one form or another.

Add the circumstantial evidence of the murders, and the 'conspiratorial' links together....

I'm talking about a degree of certainty. I use euphemistic language (like 'dead cert') because there can never be any absolutes.

However - if four witnesses, and I, happen across a rape IN PROGRESS, we are likely to be pretty sure who the guilty party is. If we manage to restrain that guilty party until enforcement arrives, and that SAME guilty party is held for the duration. If DNA evidence PROVES the guilty party WAS the guilty party, and another half dozen witness are found that can prove (maybe a tape-recording) that the guilty party was acting against the wishes of the victim...

Under those circumstances, a guilty verdict would have a very high chance of being the correct verdict, wouldn't you agree?

However, what I think you are arguing against (you mention 'hidden' evidence), is the corruption in the system... in which case I agree... the system IS flawed.
Sometimes I think... If you don't teach kids, you should. You have that way about you. JMHO.

tookie had the best lawyers and didnt need a dime. They represented him in an attempt to further their notariety.
Having money-or not having it isnt an issue.

Actually it might.

I heard more then one reference that people with money will rarely get the death penalty even for commiting the exact same crime as a fellow on death row without.....

Sometimes I think... If you don't teach kids, you should. You have that way about you. JMHO.

Thank you, friend. :)

No - I don't teach, yet... but, I have been looking into that field. (To either teach Chemistry - because Chemistry teachers are almost universally awful, and I think I could do some good there... or to teach English Literature, my personal favourite).

Actually it might.

I heard more then one reference that people with money will rarely get the death penalty even for commiting the exact same crime as a fellow on death row without.....
Isn't that the truth? And isn't that an awful kind of oppresiion...
The kind that inspires righteous revolution? ;)

Isn't that the truth? And isn't that an awful kind of oppresiion...
The kind that inspires righteous revolution? ;)


Oooooh! Can we? Please, Can we? I've never been to a revolution before!

Since this is the the *ticks of on fingers* at least 5th thread on the entire issue, I'll only leave a tidbit for the General public's consumption. Murder is murder, no matter who commits it.

Tookie deserved everything he got. He was just a piece of scum that murdered four innocent people in cold blood. It's good that he finally got a little taster of what he dished out. I think that clemency would have been called for if he helped the police by giving them info about the crips. A bit of give and take is always a good thing, even if it is with a murdering animal. But he refused to even do this, so it's obvious he hasn't reformed. Good riddance.

Oooooh! Can we? Please, Can we? I've never been to a revolution before!

Since this is the the *ticks of on fingers* at least 5th thread on the entire issue, I'll only leave a tidbit for the General public's consumption. Murder is murder, no matter who commits it.
Except that murder is traditionally defined as the initiation of lethal force, rather than a retribution of lethal force. It's like trying to compare arrests to kidnappings.

See, this is why mutilple threads on the same subject are a pain in the ass. From one of the many-


Something to consider-

source (http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm)

Several similar studies here (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7)

This, of course, is based on the flawed assumption that the death penalty is somehow the cause of all this additional cost. The actual death part of the death penalty is quite cost effective.

I'm all in favor of steamlining the rest of the process...

Tookie deserved everything he got. He was just a piece of scum that murdered four innocent people in cold blood. It's good that he finally got a little taster of what he dished out. I think that clemency would have been called for if he helped the police by giving them info about the crips. A bit of give and take is always a good thing, even if it is with a murdering animal. But he refused to even do this, so it's obvious he hasn't reformed. Good riddance.

I don't support the death penalty but I'll hardly cry over that scumbag. People should riot over a more noble cause. Rodney King for example is understandable but this guy?