NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=27715

The Palestinian Authority yesterday revealed a new law that allocates money
to family members of shahids, or 'martyrs.' A shahid is the highest honor
attainable to a Muslim, and signifies a death for Allah. The Palestinian
Authority regularly labels suicide terrorists as 'shahids.'

Following the translation of the article is a list of some terrorist shahids
honored by the Palestinian Authority. Under the new law, the families of
these terrorists will receive monthly payments.

The president has authorized the implementation of the financial clause of
the Care of the Families of Shahids draft law "...The fifth clause of the
draft law includes granting a monthly allowance to the family of every
shahid, taken from the general budget of the [Palestinian] National
Authority. The sum of the allowance is estimated to be $250, but if the
shahid was married [at the time of death], another $50 are to be added to
the sum mentioned above, and if the shahid had children, [an additional sum
of] $15 will be allocated to each of them. In addition, if the shahid had a
[living] father or mother, a sum of $25 will be allocated to each of them.
If the shahid had brothers, whom he had been taking care of, each of them
will be allocated [a sum of] $15... The transfer of the allowances to the
families of the shahids is expected to be carried out by the Institute for
the Care of the Families of Shahids, through special [bank] accounts
[opened] for the eligible people... [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, December 5, 2005]

From PMW Archives

Suicide terrorists are called shahids by the Palestinian Authority and,
under the new law, their families will be receiving Palestinian Authority
monthly payments.

In August this year, Palestinian Media Watch revealed that the Palestinian
Authority Ministry of Culture released, as its official 'Book of the Month,'
a collection of poems named in honor of Hanadi Jaradat, a terrorist
'shahida' who murdered 21 people in Haifa's Maxim restaurant in October
2003.

Likewise, on July 25 this year, the Palestinian Authority's official paper
labelled as shahids two terrorists who were killed after murdering an
Israeli civilian couple two days previously.

Two weeks before that, Palestinian Media Watch noted that a course for
women, sponsored by the Palestinian Authority's ruling party Fatah, had been
named in honor of the first woman suicide bomber, the 'Shahida' Wafa Idris.
This followed an established pattern of many years in which Idris has been
honored by the Palestinian Authority - including in a "course in democracy
and human rights." Details can be seen here.

In July 2003, the Palestinian Authority organised a football (soccer)
tournament named in honor of the suicide bomber 'shahid' that murdered 29
people on Passover Eve in Netanya's Park Hotel.

Under the new law, the families of these murderers will receive money from
the Palestinian Authority.



List of other sources:
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=1905

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3080



And people wonder why the israelis trust the palestinians about as far as they can throw a Merkava.

And people wonder why the israelis trust the palestinians about as far as they can throw a Merkava.

Try and think of it this way:

The Israelis can afford to buy a tank.

The Palestinians cannot.

So they buy "shahids".

The Israelis can afford guided missiles and high tech fire control systems.

The Palestinians can only afford "human guided munitions".

In each case, the guidance system is destroyed when the munition explodes.

It's called desperation, and it shows you how close to defeat they really are.

It's called desperation, and it shows you how close to defeat they really are.
It's desperation all right, but I don't think it signals how close they are to defeat. If anything, I look at it as a signal that they'll never surrender.

It's desperation all right, but I don't think it signals how close they are to defeat. If anything, I look at it as a signal that they'll never surrender.

The problem, as I stated in the other thread, is that you have to convince them that they are defeated as a people. This requires a degree of ruthlessness that the Israelis are apparently not capable of.

They aren't, for example, willing to put Palestinians in concentration camps and forcibly re-educate Palestinian children. Nor are they willing to execute convicted terrorists anymore (they are willing to pre-emptively assassinate, which is strange).

All of this could be stopped with the proper amount of psychological defeat of the Palestinians. But it would require actions that no Western nation could do.

And people wonder why the israelis trust the palestinians about as far as they can throw a Merkava.
Exactly.

on the up side

at least they are spending some money on the people. when arafat was in power he put many billions into swiss banks and french investments so that his wife and children could live in luxury after he died.

on the up side

at least they are spending some money on the people. when arafat was in power he put many billions into swiss banks and french investments so that his wife and children could live in luxury after he died.

Saddam funded most of the Palestinian shahids prior to this. I guess they found an alternative source of funding.

Israel needs to teach the Palestinians a harsh lesson.

Israel needs to teach the Palestinians a harsh lesson.
The problem is that they do not have the will to do so. They are essentially a Western nation.

Israel needs to teach the Palestinians a harsh lesson.

Becuase all the other harsh lessons have worked oh, so well. :p

Israel needs to teach the Palestinians a harsh lesson.

Vice-versa, of course, if we're going to be hop-scotching down that road, and round and round and round it'll go...

Israel needs to teach the Palestinians a harsh lesson.

are you guys serious... teaching who a harsh lesson... do you think bombing cities, killing mothers and destroying palestinian farmlands (thats beside ofcourse stealing there lands) is a bad enaugh lesson... and wait a minute.. a lesson for what??? there right to oppose the occupation of there lands???

you guys have a strange way of thinking.... i dont anyone who knows the truth would agree...

you guys put in your minds that Muslims and Arabs are terrorist that never did anything good in there life... please cut the stereotype talk and look the problem in a more civilized and mature way...

The problem is that they do not have the will to do so. They are essentially a Western nation.
I know, but the Arabs would love to see another Holocaust. The fucking Palestinians allied themselves with Hitler because they loved the idea of a Final Solution (note this is before the "Occupation" so don't give me bullshit about the Occupation causing the hate.) The fucking Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was planning on building concentration camps in Haifa to deal with the Jews living there at the time. He ended up fleeing to Germany when the British tried to arrest him. Once there, he did broadcast over Nazi radio. After the war, the British let him return to Jerusalem to avoid pissing off the Arabs. (They should've shot the fucker.) The Mufti was the leader of the Palestinians for more years. His protege was Yassir Arafat and people wonder why there was no peace. The Israelis have done much for peace, but their enemies want to see nothing less than every Jew dead. Israel needs to show the Arabs they have balls and will not deal with their shit.

It's desperation all right, but I don't think it signals how close they are to defeat. If anything, I look at it as a signal that they'll never surrender.

War today isn't what it used to be, people fighting a war of attrition with suicidal nutcases wouldn't have been tolerated in any age but today’s.

I would give them five days of "total war" before surrendering, but no one is even pretending anything of the sort will ever happen.

I know, but the Arabs would love to see another Holocaust. The fucking Palestinians allied themselves with Hitler because they loved the idea of a Final Solution (note this is before the "Occupation" so don't give me bullshit about the Occupation causing the hate.) The fucking Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was planning on building concentration camps in Haifa to deal with the Jews living there at the time. He ended up fleeing to Germany when the British tried to arrest him. Once there, he did broadcast over Nazi radio. After the war, the British let him return to Jerusalem to avoid pissing off the Arabs. (They should've shot the fucker.) The Mufti was the leader of the Palestinians for more years. His protege was Yassir Arafat and people wonder why there was no peace. The Israelis have done much for peace, but their enemies want to see nothing less than every Jew dead. Israel needs to show the Arabs they have balls and will not deal with their shit.

"ok.... here we go again with racist talk about Arabs and muslims, a ususal daily scenario that Arabs have to deal with in this game"
1st mistake you did is that you didnt backup your info... so please the whole mufti crap part should be backed, second please dont use the term Fucking palestinian and fucking mufti, since it is not a civilized way of a conversation , but what do you know about that... third... as i recall the egyptians started the peace talk... then followed by jordanians, and then PLO in Oslo, and it was the Israeli government who broke the recent Cease fire with the Palestinian clans several months ago...
so Israel did nothing peacefull other then just being forced by the USA to make such peace treaties...

Sometimes I wonder whether the world would be a much better place if both the Israelis and Palestinians would just bomb each other back to the stone age.

But after that I usually just eat pie and feel a whole lot better.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world would be a much better place if both the Israelis and Palestinians would just bomb each other back to the stone age.

But after that I usually just eat pie and feel a whole lot better.

I agree completely. I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians deserve eachother. And pie is yummy.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world would be a much better place if both the Israelis and Palestinians would just bomb each other back to the stone age.

But after that I usually just eat pie and feel a whole lot better.
actually believe it or not... arabs are getting annoyed with it too, thats why they want to either finnish it and rap it up, or like iran Nuke them Both off..lol

actually believe it or not... arabs are getting annoyed with it too, thats why they want to either finnish it and rap it up, or like iran Nuke them Both off..lol

I find that the Palestinians have the will, but not the means, to commit genocide against Israelis. And the Israelis have the means, but not the will, to commit genocide against the Palestinians.

Sounds like an opportunity to work something out, if you ask me.

I find that the Palestinians have the will, but not the means, to commit genocide against Israelis. And the Israelis have the means, but not the will, to commit genocide against the Palestinians.

Sounds like an opportunity to work something out, if you ask me.

im an arab.. and personally all i care about is the holy sites of the three religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but yet again, pput your self in both sides shoes, thats a good way to think of things clearly, personally im pretty good at that, and believ me its not a good situation...

I agree completely. I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians deserve eachother. And pie is yummy.

I agree. I used to sympathise with the Palestinians, but nowadays I really couldn't care less on the whole Israel/Palestinian issue. They are both as bad as each other. I'm sure the moderates on either side just want to get along and live their lives in peace, but the extremists have to fuck it up with their xenophobia and self righteousness. It would be for the best if they gathered the extremists of both sides together, give them both equal equipment and let them massacre each other. They'd get thier wish of getting to kill some sub human arabs/jews, and, get martyrs deaths. Not that any of those remaining would be inclined to honour them, but at least with their dying thoughts they would believe some supernatural being would reward them with paradise and torture their opponents for eternity.

im an arab.. and personally all i care about is the holy sites of the three religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but yet again, pput your self in both sides shoes, thats a good way to think of things clearly, personally im pretty good at that, and believ me its not a good situation...

I'll tell you what the situation is.

They both believe in the same God.

Technically, they are all sons of Abraham.

Technically, that makes them related.

We're looking at the violent version of Family Feud.

They should form a single nation TOGETHER and honor their holy sites TOGETHER and tell the rest of the world to stop shipping them hate and weapons.

Can't have that now, can we? What, people just up and deciding to stop screwing each other?

I'll tell you what the situation is.

They both believe in the same God.

Technically, they are all sons of Abraham.

Technically, that makes them related.

We're looking at the violent version of Family Feud.

They should form a single nation TOGETHER and honor their holy sites TOGETHER and tell the rest of the world to stop shipping them hate and weapons.

Can't have that now, can we? What, people just up and deciding to stop screwing each other?

That's almost beautiful. :fluffle:

I'll tell you what the situation is.

They both believe in the same God.

Technically, they are all sons of Abraham.

Technically, that makes them related.

We're looking at the violent version of Family Feud.

They should form a single nation TOGETHER and honor their holy sites TOGETHER and tell the rest of the world to stop shipping them hate and weapons.

Can't have that now, can we? What, people just up and deciding to stop screwing each other?
do you know that your proposal was proposed by the "loony" libyan leader Qadafi, calling one united state of israteen(combinig both names)...

That's almost beautiful. :fluffle:

I'm all for war if there's a damn reason. But they don't have a reason other than "they fucked us over", which both seem to chant with annoying regularity.

It's like watching two brothers fight over who gets a piece of pie.

I have two sons and a daughter, and if there's one thing I won't tolerate it's fighting over silly shit.

Israel is a terrible neighbour- just ask those who were on the USS Liberty!

It is in breach of UN resolutions going back to the forties- yet Palestinians have to sit in their camps and watch Israel rake in the reparations from Germany for the treatment of the Jews 60 years ago! This was never a fair fight, if I was Palestinian I would be permanently furious at this injustice.

they are

they are
Neither party to the conflict seems to be able to stick to their committments at all.

Perhaps they share that predilection for violating agreements because they're related.

basicly the palistinians won't give up as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain......

The problem, as I stated in the other thread, is that you have to convince them that they are defeated as a people. This requires a degree of ruthlessness that the Israelis are apparently not capable of.

They aren't, for example, willing to put Palestinians in concentration camps and forcibly re-educate Palestinian children. Nor are they willing to execute convicted terrorists anymore (they are willing to pre-emptively assassinate, which is strange).

All of this could be stopped with the proper amount of psychological defeat of the Palestinians. But it would require actions that no Western nation could do.This is an essentially wrong-headed attitude. Israel is going to have palestinians as neigbors in the future, pretty much no matter what. Having them "defeated as a nation" is not going to help any when the time comes for normal, peaceful relations. We need a competent, educated neighbor and partner, ulimately, not a doormat.

Palestinians have been thoroughly abused, disenfranchised, and humiliated already - this has not led to any form of resigned acceptance. Further persecuting them will only make it worse. I frankly can't believe you're suggesting concentration camps and taking their children away as a solution! Not only is it horriffying, and something Israelis would not tolerate, it also would not work rom the most pragmatic and ruthless perspective..

This is an essentially wrong-headed attitude. Israel is going to have palestinians as neigbors in the future, pretty much no matter what. Having them "defeated as a nation" is not going to help any when the time comes for normal, peaceful relations. We need a competent, educated neighbor and partner, ulimately, not a doormat.

Palestinians have been thoroughly abused, disenfranchised, and humiliated already - this has not led to any form of resigned acceptance. Further persecuting them will only make it worse. I frankly can't believe you're suggesting concentration camps and taking their children away as a solution! Not only is it horriffying, and something Israelis would not tolerate, it also would not work rom the most pragmatic and ruthless perspective..

It's morally repugnant, which is why, despite the paranoia of the Palestinians that this is true, the Israelis will not do it.

But, it would most certainly work.

They should form a single nation TOGETHER and honor their holy sites TOGETHER and tell the rest of the world to stop shipping them hate and weapons.

Can't have that now, can we? What, people just up and deciding to stop screwing each other?This is clearly ridiculous Kimchi. Maybe it looks pretty when you fantasize about it, but you suggestion for a united state is beyond impossible. The two parties can barely stop killing each other and you want them to open the borders and unite governments? What people think "should" be or "would be the best ulimately" rarely corresponds to pragmatic reality - to options that are resonably open to pursue. israel will not freely allow Palestinians to have citizenship. palestinians will not stop hating israelis if the borders are suddenly opened. Though maybe its the least dramatic, most boring option, perhaps negotiations should resume?
You seem to have a knack for coming out with the most blatanly nonsesical solutions tooday; first concentration camps, now this.

This is clearly ridiculous Kimchi. Maybe it looks pretty when you fantasize about it, but you suggestion for a united state is beyond impossible. The two parties can barely stop killing each other and you want them to open the borders and unite governments? What people think "should" be or "would be the best ulimately" rarely corresponds to pragmatic reality - to options that are resonably open to pursue. israel will not freely allow Palestinians to have citizenship. palestinians will not stop hating israelis if the borders are suddenly opened. Though maybe its the least dramatic, most boring option, perhaps negotiations should resume?
You seem to have a knack for coming out with the most blatanly nonsesical solutions tooday; first concentration camps, now this.
They can go in one of two directions. Each is the logical extreme endpoint.

It looks, however, like the Israelis are just going to entomb and ignore the nascent Palestinian state.

bottom line.. palestinians are the victimes in this situation... and israel must continue what it started with the pullout from gaza, to the pullout of the westbank and the forming of the linking lane between them... plus they must be completely independent from israel, meaning that israel has no concern on who enterns the country, and then we can discuss the jerusaelm issue... since this is the real problem...

But, it would most certainly work.I don't understand this statement. What about this plan would work? What would the result be? Unless you forecefully sterilize them, these troublesome neigbors aren't going away. I fail to see how locking them up and taking their kids away will create a peaceful society that will exist side by side with Israel. You say it will work - it is the leas workable solution you can concieve of, financially, morally, and with regard to security. Again, this is a preverted fantasy.

I don't understand this statement. What about this plan would work? What would the result be? Unless you forecefully sterilize them, these troublesome neigbors aren't going away. I fail to see how locking them up and taking their kids away will create a peaceful society that will exist side by side with Israel. You say it will work - it is the leas workable solution you can concieve of, financially, morally, and with regard to security. Again, this is a preverted fantasy.

Yes, it's perverted. But if you sterilized everyone above the age of puberty, and forcibly re-educated the younger ones, within a generation, you wouldn't have Palestinians anymore.

... and then we can discuss the jerusaelm issue... since this is the real problem...Jerusalem is not the real problem. The problem is establishing a culturaly peaceful socsiety with a viable economy and trusworthy government. Jerusalem is only one contention point - it is not the main problem facing Paestinians in their daily lives.

Yes, it's perverted. But if you sterilized everyone above the age of puberty, and forcibly re-educated the younger ones, within a generation, you wouldn't have Palestinians anymore So you're essetially suggesting ethnic cleansing. I am so turned on right now.

I have no idea why we're having this conversation.

Try and think of it this way:

The Israelis can afford to buy a tank.

The Palestinians cannot.

So they buy "shahids".

The Israelis can afford guided missiles and high tech fire control systems.

The Palestinians can only afford "human guided munitions".

In each case, the guidance system is destroyed when the munition explodes.

It's called desperation, and it shows you how close to defeat they really are.

One word friend: Demographics.

So you're essetially suggesting ethnic cleansing. I am so turned on right now.

I have no idea why we're having this conversation.

History shows that things are resolved when people have the will to do what others will not even consider.

You won't consider a program of ethnic cleansing and cultural annihilation coupled with re-education of the young.

And you won't consider letting them work out a mutual single nation where they live in peace, either.

Guess you must like the status quo, or something close to it.

History shows that things are resolved when people have the will to do what others will not even consider.
You won't consider a program of ethnic cleansing and cultural annihilation coupled with re-education of the young.
And you won't consider letting them work out a mutual single nation where they live in peace, either.
Guess you must like the status quo, or something close to it.You have very little imagination or understanding if you think these two 'solutions' are the only real ones. I certainly will not consider either, and luckily, neither will the world's leaders. Black and white solutions to complex problems make the problems all the worse. Remeber, that things you may like to imagine working, things that make sense on paper, make very little sense in RL. I still have to say that I'm quite shocked that this is your true opinion - not just because of its cruelty, but because of its essential irrationality.

I still have to say that I'm quite shocked that this is your true opinion - not just because of its cruelty, but because of its essential irrationality.

In what way would it not work, moral objections aside?

The culture of their parents would no longer exist. The dreams, aspirations, and national identity would vanish permanently.

In what way would it not work, moral objections aside?

The culture of their parents would no longer exist. The dreams, aspirations, and national identity would vanish permanently.
In the way that you would still have a (large) group of people who know what had been done to them and their families, and will never forgive, or submit. See residential schools for a very mild example of what you suggest.

Again, you ask in what way it wouldn't work, and put moral objections aside in the same sentance. Moral objections are the very real reason it cannot and will not work. the modern, democratic rule in Israel ensures this. It is very profound in its simplicity: morality is an important realistic consideration in democratic societies. by brushing it aside as somehow peripheral, you're failing to realize this.

That's all I can say, really. I refuse to talk about fantasy as real - it is too distracting. We have so much to worry about and work out already that talking about crackpot cinspiracies ia a total waste of time, and takes away rom the real issues.

Whoa... this is really terribly F*cked up :mad:
Hopefully the Palestinan government soon has a visit by some of their "shadids" taking them out :mad:

Israel is a terrible neighbour- just ask those who were on the USS Liberty!

It is in breach of UN resolutions going back to the forties- yet Palestinians have to sit in their camps and watch Israel rake in the reparations from Germany for the treatment of the Jews 60 years ago! This was never a fair fight, if I was Palestinian I would be permanently furious at this injustice.
What injustice? Those idiots would still be in their homes if they had half of a fucking brain. They left voluntarily to clear the way for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth by their "peace loving" neighbors. They tried to finish what Hitler started and got what they damn well deserved.

..They left voluntarily to clear the way for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth by their "peace loving" neighbors.

Can you rephrase that please? I can't make sense out of it.

IDF, your handle on here tells me that you aren't exactly impartial on this subject, and there's little point trying to change your mind. Also the overall tone of your post- is that representative of what the Palestinians have to negotiate with?

The injustice I was referring to was stated quite plainly, that of an innocent race of people being displaced only to watch their illegal neighbour stock up on illegal nuclear weapons paid for by reparation money and money conned out of the USA.

'They tried to finish what Hitler started and got what they damn well deserved.' What did Hitler do that the US hasn't done? At least he was more honest about it. -so the Palestinians rounded up Gypsies, homosexuals, dissidents, intellectuals and Jews from all over Europe and put them to work in forced labour camps, all of which was co-ordinated with the help of IBM computers? Or did they get financing with the help from your president's grandfather?

on the up side

at least they are spending some money on the people. when arafat was in power he put many billions into swiss banks and french investments so that his wife and children could live in luxury after he died.
But they're not spending the money on the people. They're spending money on weapon production facilities. The parents of the "martyrs" are simply machines for the production of guidance systems for bombs, and should be treated as such. The Israelis should bomb the families of suicide bombers in order to destroy the means of weapon production.

Human parents don't teach their kids to walk into a crowd and blow themselves up.

"ok.... here we go again with racist talk about Arabs and muslims, a ususal daily scenario that Arabs have to deal with in this game"
1st mistake you did is that you didnt backup your info... so please the whole mufti crap part should be backed, second please dont use the term Fucking palestinian and fucking mufti, since it is not a civilized way of a conversation , but what do you know about that... third... as i recall the egyptians started the peace talk... then followed by jordanians, and then PLO in Oslo, and it was the Israeli government who broke the recent Cease fire with the Palestinian clans several months ago...
so Israel did nothing peacefull other then just being forced by the USA to make such peace treaties...
Since when is stating facts racist? It's pretty well documented that the mufti of Jerusalem worked alongside the Nazis. It's about as controversial as saying the sky is blue.

Since when is stating facts racist? It's pretty well documented that the mufti of Jerusalem worked alongside the Nazis. It's about as controversial as saying the sky is blue.

It could be well documented, but it's the first time i hear about it

It could be well documented, but it's the first time i hear about it
In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right:

... to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy.
While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:

The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.

from http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0508/opinion/dalin.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_Al-Husseini

http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/bakera.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

The link between Nazis and Palestinians created by their shared antisemitism has been very well documented and is one of the prime motivations for Palestinian terrorism and the palestinian desire to see Israel destroyed. It's often ignored because the politically correct interpretation of the conflict is that the Israelis are always the evil oppressors and the Palestinians are innocent victims trying to defend their homes and families, but in fact the Palestinians have more blood on their hands since before WWII than the Israelis ever did.