NationStates Jolt Archive

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?

I tend to think of these things in practical terms. And in those terms there seems to be more benifit derived from granting clemency than in his death. His voice has come to mean something in the effort to keep young men from wasting themselves in gangs. For him to be allowed to continue in that effort seems worth keeping him around. Nothing will be gained from his death.

I'm just hoping that his death will finally spell the end of Tookie Williams-related online threaded discussions.. this clown's getting more publicity than he could ever deserve, and I'll be glad to be through with it.

With all that he's done for anti-gang efforts while in prison, I feel he should be granted clemency. He still gets life for those murders. But, he still contributes to society.

With all that he's done for anti-gang efforts while in prison, I feel he should be granted clemency. He still gets life for those murders. But, he still contributes to society.

I still haven't seen any credible evidence as to the effect he's supposedly had on gang violence... but any amount isn't going to make up for executing a family in cold blood in my book..

I think it's an intersting story. A guy starts a gang that becomes HUGE. This guy gets accussed of murdering people, which sounds consistent with a gang member. Although the trial was questionable I still think he deserves to go to jail for life, for at least starting a gang that I'm very sure is responsible for countless deaths. In jail he realizes his folly and does all he can to warn other people from going into gangs. His work gets recognized as worthy of nobel peace Prizes several times.

I never believed in the death penalty because that is the easy way out. I think life in prison is much harder and besides the guy can stick around and do more to keep kids out of gangs.

I hope they go through with the execution. Tookie deserves it.

The damage, the devastation, the carnage that the Crips and the other gangs like them have done to the black community are incalculable. If people want to say the criminal justice system is imperfect, hey, I'll agree. But the man killed four innocent people that we know of. I say that last part because he founded the Crips--you don't start a criminal syndicate like that without murdering even more people...I'll bet the guy has eight or nine corpses to his name and that's conservative.

Only God knows if he's truly repented of his past. Tookie has written anti-gang books and spoken out against gangs. I think his death would simply reinforce the anti-gang message he spent the last years of his life dispensing. Executing Tookie would underline his message--the gang life leads to suffering and death.

there are many ways to look at it, but i have one question for all of you. Who are any of us to choose who lives or dies. He wont grant clemency, Mr williams will die. Despite his efforts to make attonement for those he killed, People want somone to blame. It is sad that it has come to this.

Despite his efforts to make attonement for those he killed, People want somone to blame.

Shameless, those people who blame those murders on the convicted murderer.. :p

there are many ways to look at it, but i have one question for all of you. Who are any of us to choose who lives or dies...

Tookie Williams took it upon himself to decide that issue for four people now, didn't he? Where is clemency for them?

I think it's an intersting story. A guy starts a gang that becomes HUGE. This guy gets accussed of murdering people, which sounds consistent with a gang member. Although the trial was questionable I still think he deserves to go to jail for life, for at least starting a gang that I'm very sure is responsible for countless deaths. In jail he realizes his folly and does all he can to warn other people from going into gangs. His work gets recognized as worthy of nobel peace Prizes several times.

I never believed in the death penalty because that is the easy way out. I think life in prison is much harder and besides the guy can stick around and do more to keep kids out of gangs.
People keep saying his trial was "questionable". Just what is questionable to you about it? None of the appeal courts found it questionable? What information do you have that other more learned minds have missed?

Shameless, those people who blame those murders on the convicted murderer.. :p
Funny, i know he killed those people. People blame him for Gang warfare. That's A STUPID BELIF. thanks for pointing out the humor although. gods bless

Tookie Williams took it upon himself to decide that issue for four people now, didn't he? Where is clemency for them?
did you even read the entire statement? Murders should die, theives should be stolen from, and terorists should be tereorized. simple as that. This taken straight from the old testement. Justice is not ours to take.

In a case like this, you can't forget that the ultimate purpose of the American penal system is rehabilitation, not detterence. I'm not saying that Tookie's an innocent man who's done no harm to society, but there are a lot of instances in the prosecution's case especially the forensics and bullet analysis which were quite shoddy. Although a former violent criminal, I believe he has fully changed his life, anyone who doubts this should read some of his writings. His website has recieved thousands of emails from young, urban kids pledging to stay away from gang violence as a result of his work, and he is the epitome of the rehabilitation capable within our civilized judicial system. If we execute him as a message to others, we might as well decapitate him on national television and stick his head on a pole in an L.A. ghetto, because that'll be the exact same type of barbarism entering the American legal system.

there are many ways to look at it, but i have one question for all of you. Who are any of us to choose who lives or dies. He wont grant clemency, Mr williams will die. Despite his efforts to make attonement for those he killed, People want somone to blame. It is sad that it has come to this.
But he hasn't made attonement. He has never said he regretted his actions. Never said sorry to the family of his victims.

He hasn't shown "rehabilitation".

But he hasn't made attonement. He has never said he regretted his actions. Never said sorry to the family of his victims.

He hasn't shown "rehabilitation".

Not true. He has stated that he regrets all of his actions during his involvement with the Crips, however he maintains his innocence. There's a huge difference.

People keep saying his trial was "questionable". Just what is questionable to you about it? None of the appeal courts found it questionable? What information do you have that other more learned minds have missed?

People keep saying how they don't see any problem with the trial despite having access to Google and the ability to type "Tookie Williams trial questionable" in the search box. I personally get tons of links...

try it sometime if you are really so interesting in what people keep saying.

have you ever heard of people getting wrongly convicted for murder or anythign else? Is it at all possible that is has happened to Tookie? hasn't Tookie confessed to pretty much everything but murder?

If somone killed your kid, would you accept an apalogy? Reguardless of how heartfelt, I, nor none of those who are liek me, would not accept it.

Funny, i know he killed those people. People blame him for Gang warfare. That's A STUPID BELIF. thanks for pointing out the humor although. gods bless

He isn't on death row for founding a gang, and I wouldn't blame him for all of the gang's activity, but sure, that'd be a stupid belief.

I'm just hoping that his death will finally spell the end of Tookie Williams-related online threaded discussions.. this clown's getting more publicity than he could ever deserve, and I'll be glad to be through with it.

Hahaha, I'm with you. Best reply possible.

Oh, and if anybody cares, I think the sucker should die. My reasons are in one of the other threads about this.

People keep saying how they don't see any problem with the trial despite having access to Google and the ability to type "Tookie Williams trial questionable" in the search box. I personally get tons of links...

try it sometime if you are really so interesting in what people keep saying.

have you ever heard of people getting wrongly convicted for murder or anythign else? Is it at all possible that is has happened to Tookie? hasn't Tookie confessed to pretty much everything but murder?

It coulda been anyone on that surveillance video, your honor! :p

If the 9th circuit court voted unanimously against his appeal, no court is going to give him a break... he got the best chance you can get.

If somone killed your kid, would you accept an apalogy? Reguardless of how heartfelt, I, nor none of those who are liek me, would not accept it.

You don't have to accept his apology to realize that killing one more human being will do absolutely no good for the world. Vengeance has no place what so ever in the judicial system. None. Period. End of story. Although it is interesting to note that the widow of one of the victims, Albert was the last name, has stated that she believes he has reformed and does not want him executed.

there are many ways to look at it, but i have one question for all of you. Who are any of us to choose who lives or dies.

We're citizens of a supposedly democratic society; We all have the right to have our say about his life, and the system which could take it away.

It coulda been anyone on that surveillance video, your honor! :p

If the 9th circuit court voted unanimously against his appeal, no court is going to give him a break... he got the best chance you can get.

It's not up to the courts, it's up to the Governator now. And if you read further about the 9th circuit court's decision, they ruled against him with the hope that the governor would grant clemency.

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?

I would only grant clemency if it could be proven to me that the courts had made an egregious error - that is, that somehow, his appeals over the past 25 years had somehow missed some major evidence (DNA, video, etc).

Otherwise, I'd roll with whatever the judge, jury, and court system had in store for Mr. Williams. To do otherwise would be to defy the will of the jury in this matter.

I would only grant clemency if it could be proven to me that the courts had made an egregious error - that is, that somehow, his appeals over the past 25 years had somehow missed some major evidence (DNA, video, etc).

Otherwise, I'd roll with whatever the judge, jury, and court system had in store for Mr. Williams. To do otherwise would be to defy the will of the jury in this matter.
Looks like it's back to the courts. Arnold just denied clemency.

Burn baby, Burn!

applied in equal parts to Tookie and the City of Los Angeles after the execution.

Looks like it's back to the courts. Arnold just denied clemency.

Burn baby, Burn!

applied in equal parts to Tookie and the City of Los Angeles after the execution.


i fear of another large riot in LA good thing I dont live there.


He now officially is "The Real Terminator"

Midnight tonight at San Quentin: the prisoner is strapped to the gurney, IVs have been taped in place, and the execution team is ready to push the button. Suddenly, the phone rings. The head of the team at San Quentin answers and hears the Austrian voice at the other end of the line. "This is Governor Ah-nuld Schwarzenegger. May I speak to Tookie?" The phone receiver is handed to Tookie, and he hears the famous voice, "Tookie, I have some good news for you." Tookie exclaims, "Praise be to Allah and to his messenger Mohammed (peace be upon his name). You're commuting my sentence. Thank you, Governor."

The Governor replies, "No, Tookie, Ah'm not commuting your sentence, but I did save a bunch of money on my auto insurance by switching to Geico. Hasta la vista, baby."

did you even read the entire statement? Murders should die, theives should be stolen from, and terorists should be tereorized. simple as that. This taken straight from the old testement. Justice is not ours to take.

And disobedient sons should be stoned to death? God forbid we revert to biblical justice, although I can see now we're closer than I thought.

i fear of another large riot in LA good thing I dont live there.


He now officially is "The Real Terminator"


I wouldnt be surprised if animals rioted in the streets over this.
Some dont need much of an excuse. Hell- if their basketball team wins OR loses, they could riot.

Midnight tonight at San Quentin: the prisoner is strapped to the gurney, IVs have been taped in place, and the execution team is ready to push the button. Suddenly, the phone rings. The head of the team at San Quentin answers and hears the Austrian voice at the other end of the line. "This is Governor Ah-nuld Schwarzenegger. May I speak to Tookie?" The phone receiver is handed to Tookie, and he hears the famous voice, "Tookie, I have some good news for you." Tookie exclaims, "Praise be to Allah and to his messenger Mohammed (peace be upon his name). You're commuting my sentence. Thank you, Governor."

The Governor replies, "No, Tookie, Ah'm not commuting your sentence, but I did save a bunch of money on my auto insurance by switching to Geico. Hasta la vista, baby."


*L*

I wouldnt be surprised if animals rioted in the streets over this.
Some dont need much of an excuse. Hell- if their basketball team wins OR loses, they could riot.

Hey, having a basketball team is a license to riot!

Hey, having a basketball team is a license to riot!
Or a university in town...

People keep saying how they don't see any problem with the trial despite having access to Google and the ability to type "Tookie Williams trial questionable" in the search box. I personally get tons of links...

try it sometime if you are really so interesting in what people keep saying.

have you ever heard of people getting wrongly convicted for murder or anythign else? Is it at all possible that is has happened to Tookie? hasn't Tookie confessed to pretty much everything but murder?

Then type in doubts that the holocaust occured-their are probably as many sites discussing that as well.

As long as their are lawyers and media, we will waste time challenging absolutely everything.

Or a university in town...

Or a University with a good Basketball team.

*points*

Or a University with a good Basketball team.

*points*
There once was a time when the University of Maryland was pretty good...

Getting back to the point, I really think this is a mistake by the Governor.

This was a golden opportunity to improve relations with the black community.

There once was a time when the University of Maryland was pretty good...

And then comieth thy DUKE, and thout est whipeth thou floor with thy Maryland.

And then comieth thy DUKE, and thout est whipeth thou floor with thy Maryland.
Whatever happened to the days when Duke was an underdog?

If somone killed your kid, would you accept an apalogy? Reguardless of how heartfelt, I, nor none of those who are liek me, would not accept it.

If we left decisions to those who have just suffered a deeply personal tragic shock, barbarism would run rampant. BAD argument.

Whatever happened to the days when Duke was an underdog?

Those days went with the dinosaurs.

Although, we did beat them last year in the tourney.

I would only grant clemency if it could be proven to me that the courts had made an egregious error - that is, that somehow, his appeals over the past 25 years had somehow missed some major evidence (DNA, video, etc).

Otherwise, I'd roll with whatever the judge, jury, and court system had in store for Mr. Williams. To do otherwise would be to defy the will of the jury in this matter.

Uh, if the courts had made an egregious error, you'd grant a PARDON, not clemency.

Clemency merely means he isn't going to be put to death, not that he goes free.

How did you feel about Ford pardoning just about everyone involved in Watergate?

If we left decisions to those who have just suffered a deeply personal tragic shock, barbarism would run rampant. BAD argument.
If the 9th Circuit, which is a court more likely than not to give a convicted man the benefit of the doubt, says you're appeal is denied, then the court proceedings up to that point were probably valid, and the additional crap being brought up now is just that - crap.

The 9th has stayed executions before. If it's not doing it now, then Tookie must have done it.

Uh, if the courts had made an egregious error, you'd grant a PARDON, not clemency.

Clemency merely means he isn't going to be put to death, not that he goes free.

How did you feel about Ford pardoning just about everyone involved in Watergate?
I'd have to start with clemency, so that a proper appeal could be made leading to a pardon.

How did you feel about Ford pardoning just about everyone involved in Watergate?

About the same way I felt about Clinton pardoning Mark Rich.

I actually don't believe that any executive at any level should have the ability to pardon - they should only have the ability to commute a death sentence to mandatory life without parole - and then only if the executive can clearly show an error by the court. Which should result in a re-discussion of the case to see if the courts should exonerate the defendant.

If the 9th Circuit, which is a court more likely than not to give a convicted man the benefit of the doubt, says you're appeal is denied, then the court proceedings up to that point were probably valid, and the additional crap being brought up now is just that - crap.

The 9th has stayed executions before. If it's not doing it now, then Tookie must have done it.

Oh, I have no doubt Tookie did it, that's not my point. My point is that the argument "would you forgive him if it was your child?" is a bad argument. People in that kind of emotional pain are not able to make rational decisions.

As for those who feel his death will be a deterrent to those who might want to join the gang life...I wasn't aware that those in gangs had a low mortality rate.

Oh, and Kimchi, sorry for doubting your story in the ACLU thread...I was in a bad mood when I wrote that (nothing to do with you.)

Oh, I have no doubt Tookie did it, that's not my point. My point is that the argument "would you forgive him if it was your child?" is a bad argument. People in that kind of emotional pain are not able to make rational decisions.

As for those who feel his death will be a deterrent to those who might want to join the gang life...I wasn't aware that those in gangs had a low mortality rate.

I'm not a believer in deterrence, or retribution. I believe that all people convicted of first degree murder should be executed, to ensure that they never do it again.

I believe that they should also execute child molesters.

Putting them in prison is no guarantee. States have released prisoners throughout history, even ones on death row, when the budget got tight.

Word from CNN:

Schwartzeneger has denied clemency.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html)

Word from CNN:

Schwartzeneger has denied clemency.

Yes, posted previously in this thread...

Yes, posted previously in this thread...
Ah. Didn't see it.

Well, now it's twice as well-known.

I wouldnt be surprised if animals rioted in the streets over this.

I'd pay to see animals riot in the streets of LA. Wouldn't pay much though.

How did you feel about Ford pardoning just about everyone involved in Watergate?
Good question. He took one for the team. Probably didn't do him any good in his attempt to be elected.

If he's repented in the eyes of God, thats enough. If he hasn't, and has been doing this just to get off death row, well, I don't know. Not that I think God should be in the legal system, I'm just saying that since he's going to be dead soon, right now, he can only hope to redeem himself in the eyes of whatever God he believes in.

isnt Schwarzenegger's approval rating like at 40% i wonder how much lower it could go....

isnt Schwarzenegger's approval rating like at 40% i wonder how much lower it could go....
In California, there's sure to be enough hard-core Republican support to keep it above 0.0.

I wonder how a run-off with the other incompetent, Gray Davis, would go today?

If he's repented in the eyes of God, thats enough. If he hasn't, and has been doing this just to get off death row, well, I don't know. Not that I think God should be in the legal system, I'm just saying that since he's going to be dead soon, right now, he can only hope to redeem himself in the eyes of whatever God he believes in.

Well, honestly, I believe that jurors who say they are "for" the death penalty shouldn't be able to vote for it if they can't do it. There are states that select juries who are "certified" to be able to invoke the penalty, but I don't think that goes far enough.

I believe that after the prisoner is hooked up to the IV, the jurors must go into the room with the prisoner. All twelve jurors should be required to push a separate button in order to start the lethal injection.

If you can't do it, you shouldn't vote for it.

I wonder how a run-off with the other incompetent, Gray Davis, would go today?There was a poll on just this subject recently. As it turns out, even with Arnold's abysmal numbers, he still beats everyone but Jerry Brown... Go figure.

His numbers suck, but everyone else's suck worse. Not a pretty picture of politics in my home state.

Gary Coleman should run again next term.

Gary Coleman should run again next term.
His was one of the names in the poll... He scored single digits.

There was a poll on just this subject recently. As it turns out, even with Arnold's abysmal numbers, he still beats everyone but Jerry Brown... Go figure.

His numbers suck, but everyone else's suck worse. Not a pretty picture of politics in my home state.

It will be interesting to see if a 3rd party might have a chance next election. I think politics everywhere needs to be shaken up a little.

isnt Schwarzenegger's approval rating like at 40% i wonder how much lower it could go....


And whom was polled for this stat?

Polls dont take the public's pulse, they are published and influence the weak minded dipshits that think-or want to think- they are valid.

I could conduct a poll or popularity contest and have it reflect whatever I wanted it to. The unwashed masses go with the flow when they hear poll results.

Well, honestly, I believe that jurors who say they are "for" the death penalty shouldn't be able to vote for it if they can't do it. There are states that select juries who are "certified" to be able to invoke the penalty, but I don't think that goes far enough.

I believe that after the prisoner is hooked up to the IV, the jurors must go into the room with the prisoner. All twelve jurors should be required to push a separate button in order to start the lethal injection.

If you can't do it, you shouldn't vote for it.
Good idea

It will be interesting to see if a 3rd party might have a chance next election. I think politics everywhere needs to be shaken up a little.
California politics are so balkanized that it's effectively a ten- or twelve-party state. Maybe worse.

Carnivorous Lickers:
Word.

Poor Arnie (and poor stanley too) whatever arnie does its gonna piss a lot of people off. I'd let the guy off. Or at least not kill him. People should be executed for who they are, not what they have done. While he has done terrible things and was an awful person, the penal system has actually worked for once and tooki is now a good man whose life benefits society.

The 7-11 clerk he shot in the back as he was lying face down on the floor. The Korean family he slaughtered. Shot the daughter in the head and took half it off. Killed the mother and father. Laughed as they were gurgling on there own blood. I wonder if they got a say in this. What would they think? Hopefully they get to boot him in the ass on the way to hell. Glad this piece of garbage is not going to be around after 12:01.

This thing is the definition of a media-driven story... Ah well, six hours from now, we can stop caring. Those of you who actually 'started' caring can, I should say.

Why is there so much news about Tookie Williams and not about Mumia Abu Jamal?

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?

I personally don't believe that the death penalty is a suitable deterrant or a suitable punishment for any prisoner.

Executing Tookie tonight will only serve one purpose - providing another empty cell on death row. The Crips will still be there. The people he murdered will still be dead. And gang members will still be killing each other and any other innocent person to get in the way. In fact, killing him might even serve to martyr the man amongst his own gang members, something he doesn't deserve.

According to the news, he will not be granted clemency - Governer Arnie submitted a five page report on why he will not grant a stay of execution. The only thing to save Tookie from death now is the courts, and it's probably unliky to happen.

It's sad that a human being will be taken from this Earth, and that this act will serve no purpose other than to remove one human beings most basic of rights. It's sad that as a civilisation, we have no means of severe punishment other than to rid ourselves of the problem and let a higher power decide on his fate.

Sniff...Sniff...what's that I smell???......Ahhh...it's Tookie...smells just like chicken.:sniper:

The 7-11 clerk he shot in the back as he was lying face down on the floor. The Korean family he slaughtered. Shot the daughter in the head and took half it off. Killed the mother and father. Laughed as they were gurgling on there own blood. I wonder if they got a say in this. What would they think? Hopefully they get to boot him in the ass on the way to hell. Glad this piece of garbage is not going to be around after 12:01.
did you see the pics of the victims?
www.michaelsavage.com
WARNING: GRUESOM PICS!
Look at them. I know I wont shed a tear for this piece of trash!
I hope the devil has a special room for him!

I think it's only fitting that we as a people second guess ourselves.

We should. We should always wonder: Is it fair that this brutal killer be allowed to live merely because he is 'useful' to society now? How useful does one have to be to slip out of a death sentence? How many lives can he save as a spokesman against gang violence? How does that balance out against the ones he's already killed? If we let him go, won't it be that much easier to justify letting the next killer live? And the next? Should they live?

I don't think the Death Penalty is something that should ever be taken lightly. The fact that we don't gives me some hope for mankind. It's a situation where the questions are more important than the answers.

I think it's only fitting that we as a people second guess ourselves.

We should. We should always wonder: Is it fair that this brutal killer be allowed to live merely because he is 'useful' to society now? How useful does one have to be to slip out of a death sentence? How many lives can he save as a spokesman against gang violence? How does that balance out against the ones he's already killed? If we let him go, won't it be that much easier to justify letting the next killer live? And the next? Should they live?

I don't think the Death Penalty is something that should ever be taken lightly. The fact that we don't gives me some hope for mankind. It's a situation where the questions are more important than the answers.

take a look at the pics I gave the link to.
Do you really want this guy, after what he has done, to still be around and have idiots support him, "Cause he changed his ways"?

take a look at the pics I gave the link to.
Do you really want this guy, after what he has done, to still be around and have idiots support him, "Cause he changed his ways"?


Um, you gave a link to the webpage written by a man who believes that liberals are for this kind of violence - I take this from the "Show these violent picutes to your liberal friends!'

The man is out to shock and nothing more. I think it's disgusting and immoral that he freely shows pictures of dead people and video of people being murdered on his website. Does that man have no respect for the people he's supposedly rallying for?

Will killing Tookie fix any of the wrongs he's done? Do we have more of a right to take a life than Tookie did 26 years ago? Maybe if he was locked up and the key thrown away, he can change the life of one kid who was planning to join a gang, and save that childs life from what he's written in his books and what he has to say. I don't think the man should ever know freedom again.

take a look at the pics I gave the link to.
Do you really want this guy, after what he has done, to still be around and have idiots support him, "Cause he changed his ways"?

Mercy for the genuinely deserving is mercy without limit.

I think the real question is "Is he deserving of mercy for the brutality he inflicted even if he HAS changed his ways?"

If he's deserving, I can give it. But I really don't know if I can make that decision.

Wouldn't matter if I did. There are less than six hours left and only a few people whose opinion on whether he is deserving or not still matters. Time will tell.

I'll sleep just fine either way.

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?
This guy not only killed several people himself, but in starting the Crips he is an accessory to every murder that has been perpetrated by other Crip members. Kill him and stop wasting everyone's' time with this crap.

<Tookie>:sniper: :mp5:

The 7-11 clerk he shot in the back as he was lying face down on the floor. The Korean family he slaughtered. Shot the daughter in the head and took half it off. Killed the mother and father. Laughed as they were gurgling on there own blood. I wonder if they got a say in this. What would they think? Hopefully they get to boot him in the ass on the way to hell. Glad this piece of garbage is not going to be around after 12:01.
Honestly, I find it funny one of the witnesses against him is in jail in Canada for murdering a convenience store clerk.

Tomorrow!
Tomorrow!
Tookie's dying tomorrow!
It's onlyyyy a day away.

Tomorrow!
Tomorrow!
Tookie's dying tomorrow!
It's onlyyyy a day away.
No one would know who Stan "Tookie" Williams is if not for all this media furor. The guy has been on death row for 26 years. And I am sure you showed him with your mature and intelligent adaptation of a showtune.

Um, you gave a link to the webpage written by a man who believes that liberals are for this kind of violence - I take this from the "Show these violent picutes to your liberal friends!'

The man is out to shock and nothing more. I think it's disgusting and immoral that he freely shows pictures of dead people and video of people being murdered on his website. Does that man have no respect for the people he's supposedly rallying for?

Will killing Tookie fix any of the wrongs he's done? Do we have more of a right to take a life than Tookie did 26 years ago? Maybe if he was locked up and the key thrown away, he can change the life of one kid who was planning to join a gang, and save that childs life from what he's written in his books and what he has to say. I don't think the man should ever know freedom again.

first off, if we let this bum live
the others will think, "hey I dont have to worry about getting the death penalty because I can kill anyone, then all I gotta do is act nice in prison, and I'll be able to live on!"

and second, the reason why he shows these things, is to show you idiot liberals who want us to be "nice" to those who don't feel the same way about us. They would feel more comfortable by putting a knife to your throat and slitting you open from ear to ear. And we are suppose to show mercy and pity to violent murderers who would slit your throat and dance in your blood? Geeze, no wonder the rest of the world laughs at the US.

No one would know who Stan "Tookie" Williams is if not for all this media furor. The guy has been on death row for 26 years. And I am sure you showed him with your mature and intelligent adaptation of a showtune.

why for 26 years?
Why not death at dawn?
A heck of a lot cheaper than locking him up for 26 years.
Also, whats a box of bullets run nowadays?

At least Saddam said for them to go ahead and hang him. At least he can take the same deal he gave to all of his victims

Tookie is just a little pussy. He needs to die. He not only needs to die because of the 4 people he murdered, he just needs to die because he can't even own up to what he did.

And he's used to needle injections. I don't even think he'd notice.

first off, if we let this bum live
the others will think, "hey I dont have to worry about getting the death penalty because I can kill anyone, then all I gotta do is act nice in prison, and I'll be able to live on!"
Twenty years on death row will sure teach them that killing is wrong and they will be killed right back.

and second, the reason why he shows these things, is to show you idiot liberals who want us to be "nice" to those who don't feel the same way about us.
Spoken by some one who thinks the American death penalty is a deterrent.
Chin'a death penalty is a deterrent. Singapore's death penalty is a deterrent. America's death penalty is a joke.

Geeze, no wonder the rest of the world laughs at the US.
I'm pretty sure they laugh at us because 99% of everyone is a hypocritical, pompous windbag/religious extremist.

why for 26 years?
Why not death at dawn?
A heck of a lot cheaper than locking him up for 26 years.
Also, whats a box of bullets run nowadays?

Blame the liberals...

They have unlimited amounts of appeals. They should only get 3 total. That means you save them up for something good.

He should've died long ago. 11 years ago to be precise.

15 years should be the limit.

No one would know who Stan "Tookie" Williams is if not for all this media furor. The guy has been on death row for 26 years. And I am sure you showed him with your mature and intelligent adaptation of a showtune.
Hey now, I did a report on gangs for my 8th grade social sciences class. I damn well knew who Tookie was. As for the showtune, it sorta just popped into my head and I just had to share. There was no conscious attempt made.

Blame the liberals...
I demand sweeping generalizations based on erroneous belief systems!

Spoken by some one who thinks the American death penalty is a deterrent.
Chin'a death penalty is a deterrent. Singapore's death penalty is a deterrent. America's death penalty is a joke.


I do agree with you our death penalty is a joke.
It sucks!

America's death penalty is a joke.
Not in Texas or Virginia. Those two states have an express lane for certain death penalty cases.

I've seen someone take as few as 2 1/2 years in Virginia.

Twenty years on death row will sure teach them that killing is wrong and they will be killed right back.


Spoken by some one who thinks the American death penalty is a deterrent.
Chin'a death penalty is a deterrent. Singapore's death penalty is a deterrent. America's death penalty is a joke.


I'm pretty sure they laugh at us because 99% of everyone is a hypocritical, pompous windbag/religious extremist.

Sorry to inform you. The Dealth Penalty is a form of deterent. Like any "eye for an eye" punishment. "Eye for an eye" punishments affect us at the most base psychological levels: the need for survival. These are hardcore criminals. Not just petty theives. Their sense of morality is skewed beyond redemption. Stealing a pizza is one thing. Killing multiple persons for selfish reasons is beyond help.

And why does it work as a deterent? Because recorded crime was substantially lower in times when we used it with frequency, ie, read the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, the Bronze and Iron Ages, and even the Enlightenment, etc.

And it should be public. Not necessarily the deaths (except maybe one every 10 years), but we should definately bring back the stockades and flogging.

You won't be so cool coming out of prison when your friends can see you getting pelleted with rotten tomatoes.

I demand sweeping generalizations based on erroneous belief systems!

lmao

Personally, I think it adds more flare, spark, personality, and tension to the conversation. This topic has been overused to the point of being on death row.

Time to add some spice to it.

Blame the liberals...

The Nobel Peace Prize is a farce. Yasser Arafat won it and Adolf Hitler was nominated for one.

As for those children's books, he sold a grand farking total of 300, of which most were probably purchased by his sympathizers and sycophants.

Kill the animal already, he forfeited his right to exist as a human being twenty six years ago.

Not in Texas or Virginia. Those two states have an express lane for certain death penalty cases.

I've seen someone take as few as 2 1/2 years in Virginia.
It is a joke there too.

The Dealth Penalty is a form of deterent. Like any "eye for an eye" punishment. "Eye for an eye" punishments affect us at the most base psychological levels: the need for survival. These are hardcore criminals. Not just petty theives.
That doesn't explain how it is a deterrent. Deterrent and vengence arn't the same thing.

And why does it work as a deterent? Because recorded crime was substantially lower in times when we used it with frequency, ie, read the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, the Bronze and Iron Ages, and even the Enlightenment, etc.
Which is why the American death penalty isn't a deterrent.

Not in Texas or Virginia. Those two states have an express lane for certain death penalty cases.

I've seen someone take as few as 2 1/2 years in Virginia.

We need more places like this!
ESPECIALLY if there is irresputable evidence the bastard did it!

Kill the animal already, he forfeited his right to exist as a human being twenty six years ago.

Ever read "Of Mice and Men"?

It's like putting down your dog because you know he has cancer... Euthanasia... Death Penalty. Same thing. It just removes societies burden...

Join the Coalition!

Pro Abortion, Euthanasia, and Death Penalty!

It is a joke there too.

That doesn't explain how it is a deterrent. Deterrent and vengence arn't the same thing.

Which is why the American death penalty isn't a deterrent.

Well, I don't look at it as vengeance, or retribution, or a deterrent.

It is most certainly a great way to make sure they never do it again.

*yawn*

Why don't we take the dude out back and shoot him in the head, Red Army style. Save us a bunch of bandwidth.

Deterrent and vengence arn't the same thing.


No, but vengeance can be a deterrent.. in any case, there's no real method of accurately measuring deterrent effect of a certain punishment.. some criminals will take certain actions to avoid a punishment, while others go ahead and kill hostages or witnesses anyway, not caring if it means death for them.

Honestly, I find it funny one of the witnesses against him is in jail in Canada for murdering a convenience store clerk.

Well not really funny but sad. Still there was a camera in that 7-11 as there is in all 7-11's.

Well, I don't look at it as vengeance, or retribution, or a deterrent.

It is most certainly a great way to make sure they never do it again.
You mean like vengeance? :rolleyes:

there's no real method of accurately measuring deterrent effect of a certain punishment..
Sure there is, it is called 'the news'.

Well, I don't look at it as vengeance, or retribution, or a deterrent.

It is most certainly a great way to make sure they never do it again.

Wellll

That line of reasoning is valid for a preditor.

Would this man kill again? If so why work with kids to keep them out of gangs?

You mean like vengeance? :rolleyes:


Wellll you do have to admit there are preditors or as Mark Twain once coined in an article. Man-Tigers.....

I propose 4 death sentances on this clown. I say kill him 3 times and bring him back to life. The final 4th time should be a firing squad.

Wellll you do have to admit there are preditors or as Mark Twain once coined in an article. Man-Tigers.....
What I am saying is America's death penalty is not a deterrent, despite how much these guys sit around going "This will show those other criminals that if they kill people they won't get away with it" think it is.

What I am saying is America's death penalty is not a deterrent, despite how much these guys sit around going "This will show those other criminals that if they kill people they won't get away with it" think it is.

Your evidence for this is... ?

*yawn*

Why don't we take the dude out back and shoot him in the head, Red Army style. Save us a bunch of bandwidth.

Waste of a bullet. Those things aren't cheap, ya know. (Then again neither are any of our current methods of execution. I vote for garroting!)

Your evidence for this is... ?
I watch the news.

I could live (pun intended) with no death penalty, if you changed the US constitution. If you modified it so you could have extremely tough prisons in the most inhospitable parts of Alaska only for those violent offenders who have no chance for parole. I say try rehabilitation for those with lesser crimes, but those who are habitual crimanls and those who commit 1st degree murder would need to got to the type of prison I describe. No more country clubs, TV, radio, etc. :headbang:

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?

Gov. Schwarzenegger made a respectable decision. No matter how many "children's books" Tookie writes or "anti-gang ceminars" he holds, he is still the founder of a gang that killed twice as many people as the mafia, and continues to do so. Every one of these indirectly related deaths, and all four of his convicted murders, should prove that Tookie is a corrupt man and could only hurt society. I don't look at this in terms of "what has he done to deserve life", moreover, "what good will it do for society if Tookie were gone?". The best punishment is the punishment of the afterlife, and Tookie's got it comin'!

Your evidence for this is... ?

Ok. Where is your evidence it prevents murder?

Waste of a bullet. Those things aren't cheap, ya know. (Then again neither are any of our current methods of execution. I vote for garroting!)


Nahhh. Insurence claims for repeatative stress injuries. Especially in Texas.....

wow - some of you remind me of hungry dogs salivating for a treat

it's kinda creepy

so if he denies ever having commited those murders 'till the very end, doesn't that mean he officially didn't do it?

Proof he was judged by a jury of his PEERS


The crips voted for death?

Seriously now, juries are not infallable....

I propose 4 death sentances on this clown. I say kill him 3 times and bring him back to life. The final 4th time should be a firing squad.


A few dunks in the tub? I bet he'll confess by the second time anyway.

Waste of a bullet. Those things aren't cheap, ya know. (Then again neither are any of our current methods of execution. I vote for garroting!)
A .22lr through the eye should do it. Especially if you use one of the mini shotgun shell .22s.

The crips voted for death?

Seriously now, juries are not infallable....

A previous poster pointed out that one of the jurors who found tookie guilty is now serving time himsel for robbing a 7-11.
No-juries are not infallable, but they are often actually comprised of your peers. In this case, a fellow scum bag.

A .22lr through the eye should do it. Especially if you use one of the mini shotgun shell .22s.

CCI "Snake Shot"? Thats pretty cruel, though.

I could live (pun intended) with no death penalty, if you changed the US constitution. If you modified it so you could have extremely tough prisons in the most inhospitable parts of Alaska only for those violent offenders who have no chance for parole. I say try rehabilitation for those with lesser crimes, but those who are habitual crimanls and those who commit 1st degree murder would need to got to the type of prison I describe. No more country clubs, TV, radio, etc. :headbang:

Only if they also had to make their own food and running water...

That's why we have the death penalty. To remove their burden on society.

Only if they also had to make their own food and running water...

That's why we have the death penalty. To remove their burden on society.

And, dont forget, know that this particular individual will never take a victim again, or direct another to take a victim.
We also dont have to hire people to guard a man with nothing to lose. Ever been close to a convicted murderer that has nothing to lose? I like them better dead.

CCI "Snake Shot"? Thats pretty cruel, though.
Not through the eye. It would pretty much be instant puree in there.

I Think That Gov. Schwarzenegger Should Grant Tookie Clemency. The Guy Is The "poster Child" Of What Prisone Should Do For It's Pisoners, And That Is Reform Them. The Man Has Made A Turn Around From What He Once Was. He Wrote Whole Books On Peices Of Toilet Papper When He Was In Solitery. Also Just Becuse He Founded The Crips Isn't Another Reason He Should Be Killed, He Started That Gang For Protection. He Co-created It So That He Could Can Make Those Places A Safer Place To Live. It Was Rival Gangs That Fired The First Shot, Literally, Some Other Gang Member Opend Fire On Him Ans Som Of His Crew. This Caused Escolation Ti The Point That Since The Other Gangs Wouldn't Fight One On One And Like Real Men, Becuse The Keep On Loseing, That They Too Had To Use Guns.so He Should Not Be Killed And Just Left To Live The Rest Of His Natural Life In Prisone

wow - some of you remind me of hungry dogs salivating for a treat

it's kinda creepy

Agreed. So much joy over the death of another person. :eek:

snip...

I also think that the Governor shouldn't grant Nimmermaker clemency...

for getting a ban....

Proof he was judged by a jury of his PEERS
Provided inherent little tidbits like "This guy here? yeah, he is a convicted felon" wern't withheld.

A previous poster pointed out that one of the jurors who found tookie guilty is now serving time himsel for robbing a 7-11.
That was a witness who testified against him in the killing of the clerk. Read before saying ridiculous bullshit.

Your evidence for this is... ?
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/DeterMRates3.GIF

As executions rose, states without the death penalty fared much better than states with the death penalty in reducing their murder rates. The gap between the murder rate in death penalty states and the non-death penalty states grew larger (as shown in Chart II). In 1990, the murder rates in these two groups were 4% apart. By 2000, the murder rate in the death penalty states was 35% higher than the rate in states without the death penalty. In 2001, the gap between non-death penalty states and states with the death penalty again grew, reaching 37%. For 2002, the number stands at 36%.
Source (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168)

DNA testing has proven that over 100 inmates awaiting execution on death row were innocent.
bullet Research has cast doubt on whether capital punishment acts as a deterrent to murder. 11 (unfortunately, footnote 11 is not at the bottom of this page, so in fairness-from the same page-
The homicide rate in those states with the death penalty is almost double the rate in states without the death penalty. It is not known whether this is due to:
bullet People in high-homicide states demanding the death penalty as a perceived deterrent, or
bullet Use of the death penalty by the state cheapens the value of life, and causes a higher homicide rate.
source (http://www.religioustolerance.org/execut3.htm)

This one draws its own conclusions a little much-
There have been many comparisons of crime rates of death
penalty states to non- death penalty states. These clearly show that
the death penalty has no effect on the deteration of crime. The
homicide rates in Michigan, Ohio and Illinois rise and fall along with
Wisconsin. Michigan, Ohio and Illinois all have the death penalty.
Wisconsin does not. In 1994, the average murder rate in a death
penalty state of a population of 100,00 was 8.0, for a non-death
penalty state, 4.4. In Canada the homicide rate per 100,000 people
was 3.09 in 1975, this was when they had the death penalty. In 1976
Canada got rid of the death penalty. In 1986 the crime rate decreased
to 2.19 per 100,000 people, the lowest in 15 years. Isn't it odd that
the crime rates were high with the death penalty and low without?
Clearly this shows that the presence of the death penalty has no
effect on the increase or decrease of crime rates. Even with the
death penalty, crime rates continue to rise and fall in the United
States. The number of people on death row in 1967 were in 1972: 200
and in 1997 3,100. Crimes will be committed weather or not death
penalty is a method of punishment.
source (http://www.studyworld.com/newsite/ReportEssay/SocialIssues/Political%5CCrime_and_the_Death_Penalty-108.htm)



A recent New York Times survey found states without the death penalty have lower homicide rates than states with the death penalty. The gap between the cumulative murder rates of death penalty and non-death penalty states actually widened in 2003, from 36% in 2002 to 44% in 2003. "The two states with the most executions in 2003, Texas (24) and Oklahoma (14) saw increases in their murder rates from 2002 to 2003. Both states had murder rates above the national average in 2003: Texas - 6.4, and Oklahoma - 5.9. The top 13 states in terms of murder rates were all death penalty states. The murder rate of the death penalty states increased from 2002, while the rate in non-death penalty states decreased." (www.deathpenaltyinfo.org).



also had something on there worth considering-


A 1993 Duke University study showed that the death penalty in North Carolina costs 2.16 million dollars more per execution than a non-death penalty murder trial. Research in other states indicates executions are three to six times more costly than life imprisonment. In 1999, the New Mexico State Public Defender Department estimated the state would save $1 to 2.5 million dollars per year on Public Defender costs alone if the death penalty was replaced with an alternative sentence.


source (http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm#3)
That's just page one.

Provided inherent little tidbits like "This guy here? yeah, he is a convicted felon" wern't withheld.


That was a witness who testified against him in the killing of the clerk. Read before saying ridiculous bullshit.


I reread it and you're right.

Take a deep breath before responding like a shrike.

Your evidence for this is... ?

Practically every study of the subject shows the death penalty is not a deterrent.

http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/dp/dppapers/mike.deterence

See also:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

Potential criminals are deterred more by the likelihood that they will be caught than by the severty of the possible sentence.

Practically every study of the subject shows the death penalty is not a deterrent.

http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/dp/dppapers/mike.deterence

See also:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

Potential criminals are deterred more by the likelihood that they will be caught than by the severty of the possible sentence.
Dammit, I knew I should have waited until you posted...

Dammit, I knew I should have waited until you posted...

Meh. I was impressed by what you posted.

Practically every study of the subject shows the death penalty is not a deterrent.

http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/dp/dppapers/mike.deterence

See also:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

Potential criminals are deterred more by the likelihood that they will be caught than by the severty of the possible sentence.

Yes, because the death penalty is used so seldomly and with such a long wait time, plus it being done quietly, that it has no affect on people.

Use it with more frequency, and with less wait time, and the 'survival' instinct of closer to normal humans will make them think twice.

And for those who aren't normal enough to have the 'survival' instinct kick in, well, we don't have to worry about them anymore.

first off, if we let this bum live
the others will think, "hey I dont have to worry about getting the death penalty because I can kill anyone, then all I gotta do is act nice in prison, and I'll be able to live on!"

and second, the reason why he shows these things, is to show you idiot liberals who want us to be "nice" to those who don't feel the same way about us. They would feel more comfortable by putting a knife to your throat and slitting you open from ear to ear. And we are suppose to show mercy and pity to violent murderers who would slit your throat and dance in your blood? Geeze, no wonder the rest of the world laughs at the US.

Firstly, I need to stress one thing. I'm Irish, I'm an EU citizen, and where I'm from, liberals are seen as socially progressive, whereas people like you are seen as having a two by four shoved so deep up their arse, they're picking splinters out of their teeth.

Secondly, do you honestly believe that executing this man tonight will solve even one problem with the American society? Don't you think that it would be a better idea to pull hand guns - specifically designed to KILL PEOPLE - off the streets and out of the hands of every lunatic and his cousin out there?

I swear, Americans are too soft. In Ireland, I grew up terrorist attacks were commonplace. People were bombed on the streets of Dublin. People went missing and turned up 20 years later buried in shallow graves. But we don't believe that killing the criminal will give anything back to society. There are still going to be thousands of deaths due to violence in the US ever year. Are you going to kill everyone who commits murder? How do you distinguish between Tookie and someone who beats a girl to death in a parking lot?

I'm not condoning what he did. The man should be locked up and the key thrown away. Ans Americans had no business going to war at this time with Iraq, did you really expect the Iraqi's to run to you with open arms, thanking you for their freedom?

Which is why the American death penalty isn't a deterrent.

I agree - the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrant. How many people are killed on teh streets of LA every year? I've heard of 6 in one week, and that was quiet. Tookie dying tonight will solve nothing

Yes, because the death penalty is used so seldomly and with such a long wait time, plus it being done quietly, that it has no affect on people.

Use it with more frequency, and with less wait time, and the 'survival' instinct of closer to normal humans will make them think twice.

And for those who aren't normal enough to have the 'survival' instinct kick in, well, we don't have to worry about them anymore.


Or if you think about t, it could also mean that people who would commit these things do so less because they are much mroe afraid of life in prison than they are of dying. Death is such an easy way out, life in prison seems much worse in my eyes and i bet a lot of others feel the same way.

Firstly, I need to stress one thing. I'm Irish, I'm an EU citizen, and where I'm from, liberals are seen as socially progressive, whereas people like you are seen as having a two by four shoved so deep up their arse, they're picking splinters out of their teeth.

Secondly, do you honestly believe that executing this man tonight will solve even one problem with the American society? Don't you think that it would be a better idea to pull hand guns - specifically designed to KILL PEOPLE - off the streets and out of the hands of every lunatic and his cousin out there?

I swear, Americans are too soft. In Ireland, I grew up terrorist attacks were commonplace. People were bombed on the streets of Dublin. People went missing and turned up 20 years later buried in shallow graves. But we don't believe that killing the criminal will give anything back to society. There are still going to be thousands of deaths due to violence in the US ever year. Are you going to kill everyone who commits murder? How do you distinguish between Tookie and someone who beats a girl to death in a parking lot?

I'm not condoning what he did. The man should be locked up and the key thrown away. Ans Americans had no business going to war at this time with Iraq, did you really expect the Iraqi's to run to you with open arms, thanking you for their freedom?



lol - that's like several different threads all rolled into one.

Firstly, I need to stress one thing. I'm Irish, I'm an EU citizen, and where I'm from, liberals are seen as socially progressive, whereas people like you are seen as having a two by four shoved so deep up their arse, they're picking splinters out of their teeth.

Secondly, do you honestly believe that executing this man tonight will solve even one problem with the American society? Don't you think that it would be a better idea to pull hand guns - specifically designed to KILL PEOPLE - off the streets and out of the hands of every lunatic and his cousin out there?

I swear, Americans are too soft. In Ireland, I grew up terrorist attacks were commonplace. People were bombed on the streets of Dublin. People went missing and turned up 20 years later buried in shallow graves. But we don't believe that killing the criminal will give anything back to society. There are still going to be thousands of deaths due to violence in the US ever year. Are you going to kill everyone who commits murder? How do you distinguish between Tookie and someone who beats a girl to death in a parking lot?

I'm not condoning what he did. The man should be locked up and the key thrown away. Ans Americans had no business going to war at this time with Iraq, did you really expect the Iraqi's to run to you with open arms, thanking you for their freedom?

A) Don't bring Iraq into this. It has no purpose in this thread.

B) Executing him? Yeah. It'll just reinforce the increasing stupidity in the Ghetto Black Community. IE, those who listen to that idiot Al Sharpton and the NAACP. Which are both racist. Anything that the white man does is automatically "racist". That is their stance. It'll just help the rest of the country, once again, stop listening to their retarded views.

C)And No, not just by himself. If we executed more of his kind: Yes it would. Like putting a dog down, you can't help rehabilitate rabid animals. And, I don't believe in just execution for anything. Multiple homicide/1st degree murder is the ONLY thing I condone execution for. Anything else that is serious, such as rape, there can just be dungeon time. Not prison time. Dungeon time. Middle Ages style.

Petty thieves can get flogging and stockades.

Yes, because the death penalty is used so seldomly and with such a long wait time, plus it being done quietly, that it has no affect on people.

Use it with more frequency, and with less wait time, and the 'survival' instinct of closer to normal humans will make them think twice.

And for those who aren't normal enough to have the 'survival' instinct kick in, well, we don't have to worry about them anymore.

Nice try, but studies have controlled for those variables.

Moreoever, using it "with more frequency and less wait time" equals less judicial review and less certainty of guilty and proper sentencing. Thus, you will executing an increasing number of innocent or wrongly sentenced people.

Nice try, but studies have controlled for those variables.

Moreoever, using it "with more frequency and less wait time" equals less judicial review and less certainty of guilty and proper sentencing. Thus, you will executing an increasing number of innocent or wrongly sentenced people.
Not to mention that the data doesn't support his hypothesis, as states with no death penalty have in essense and infinate time between executions and lower murder rates.

It'll just reinforce the increasing stupidity in the Ghetto Black Community. IE, those who listen to that idiot Al Sharpton and the NAACP. Which are both racist. Anything that the white man does is automatically "racist". That is their stance.

WHOAH THERE!!!!

The NAACP is racist? You are full of shit.

And African-Americans are "increasingly stupid[]" (or at least the vast majority of them are)?

These are side-topics, but I can't let that kind of bullshit slide.

Nice try, but studies have controlled for those variables.

Moreoever, using it "with more frequency and less wait time" equals less judicial review and less certainty of guilty and proper sentencing. Thus, you will executing an increasing number of innocent or wrongly sentenced people.

I don't mean instant. I mean like 10-15 year wait periods. That's more than enough time for appeals and judicial review. Studies in what countries? Studies by Amensty International in the United States, in states where the Death Penalty is used, what, once every other year at the most?

And as I said above. Getting the death penalty should only be used in cases of 1st degree murder/multiple homicide and or accomplice to 1st degree murder and inciting 1st degree murder. But it should be the automatic sentence.

A) Don't bring Iraq into this. It has no purpose in this thread.

B) Executing him? Yeah. It'll just reinforce the increasing stupidity in the Ghetto Black Community. IE, those who listen to that idiot Al Sharpton and the NAACP. Which are both racist. Anything that the white man does is automatically "racist". That is their stance. It'll just help the rest of the country, once again, stop listening to their retarded views.

C)And No, not just by himself. If we executed more of his kind: Yes it would. Like putting a dog down, you can't help rehabilitate rabid animals. And, I don't believe in just execution for anything. Multiple homicide/1st degree murder is the ONLY thing I condone execution for. Anything else that is serious, such as rape, there can just be dungeon time. Not prison time. Dungeon time. Middle Ages style.

Petty thieves can get flogging and stockades.


Apologies, Iraq was brought in because of Michael Savage's website - horrific and disrespectful.

And I find that a little racist myself. Kill anyone who ends up in a gang? Now, I'm not sure, but aren't the majority of gang members black/hispanic?
And aren't the majority of gang members from families who live below the poverty line? There's something wrong with American society. You don't see gangs in countries where suitable social welfare is readily available. Not saying that crime doesn't exist, we just don't see any reason to go shoot the guy down the road just because he's pally with some other crowd

WHOAH THERE!!!!

The NAACP is racist? You are full of shit.

And African-Americans are "increasingly stupid[]" (or at least the vast majority of them are)?

These are side-topics, but I can't let that kind of bullshit slide.

As I said, I guess I forgot to emphasize "ghetto". Ask any black person in this fricking country. I go to public school. I have asked many acquaintances and friends and they acknowledge that there is a distinct difference between a black person, and a "bebe kid".

And no, the vast majority are just like you and me and are intelligent and completely unaffected by the idiocy of Al Sharpton and his ilk. However, those blacks portrayed on TV, are usually the "ghetto" poor slum blacks, who continue to believe in the "victimization" of the black community, when studies completely show otherwise.

And yes, the NAACP is becoming more and more racist. Everything is "The Man's" fault. When was the last time the NAACP has done anything remotely good for the black community since the end of the 1970s?!?!

I don't mean instant. I mean like 10-15 year wait periods. That's more than enough time for appeals and judicial review. Studies in what countries? Studies by Amensty International in the United States, in states where the Death Penalty is used, what, once every other year at the most?

And as I said above. Getting the death penalty should only be used in cases of 1st degree murder/multiple homicide and or accomplice to 1st degree murder and inciting 1st degree murder. But it should be the automatic sentence.

You didn't even look at the studies. You are just guessing at loopholes.

Apologies, Iraq was brought in because of Michael Savage's website - horrific and disrespectful.

And I find that a little racist myself. Kill anyone who ends up in a gang? Now, I'm not sure, but aren't the majority of gang members black/hispanic?
And aren't the majority of gang members from families who live below the poverty line? There's something wrong with American society. You don't see gangs in countries where suitable social welfare is readily available. Not saying that crime doesn't exist, we just don't see any reason to go shoot the guy down the road just because he's pally with some other crowd

Hah... explain France?

Yes, there is something wrong with American society. We're a society based on Victimization now. Everything is everyone else fault. No one takes blame for their own problems anymore. But there is something wrong in every society, so just making it seem like it's just American society is kind of... ignorant?

And yes, the NAACP is becoming more and more racist. Everything is "The Man's" fault. When was the last time the NAACP has done anything remotely good for the black community since the end of the 1970s?!?!

Prove this statement or retract it.

I happen to be a white male who is a founding member of NAACP chapter, as well as a current member.

You didn't even look at the studies. You are just guessing at loopholes.

You've given me US studies. Where, as I've said, the United States does not use the death penalty enough for it to be a factor in the mind of a criminal.

Can you please give me studies from other nation's that use the death penalty more often, as to whether or not it deters crime?

And really, it's not about detering crime. It's about removing those from society who are just so far gone as to not even be helped so that society doesn't have to be burdened by them anymore.

Which is why I only believe it should be used on those who commit multiple homicides and 1st degree murders, or conspire to help commit those crimes. These individuals are so far gone, that putting them in prison is a burden to society.

Hah... explain France?

Yes, there is something wrong with American society. We're a society based on Victimization now. Everything is everyone else fault. No one takes blame for their own problems anymore. But there is something wrong in every society, so just making it seem like it's just American society is kind of... ignorant?

Ah, same problem as in the US. The French government took a group of immigrants and housed them in run down tennements, with no amenities, no social welfare, no health services, no schools. Wouldn't you jump up and protest in a way that would be heard by as many people as you could get your message out to? The only way to do that is to burn something, beat someone up, trash a couple of shops and give the more well off and comfortable people around them a hard time because, hell, if they can't have it, why should anyone else. And the fact that you've heard about the problems in Paris means that they're being preety good at getting their message across. Precisely what's happened and is still happening here in the US

Ah, same problem as in the US. The French government took a group of immigrants and housed them in run down tennements, with no amenities, no social welfare, no health services, no schools. Wouldn't you jump up and protest in a way that would be heard by as many people as you could get your message out to? The only way to do that is to burn something, beat someone up, trash a couple of shops and give the more well off and comfortable people around them a hard time because, hell, if they can't have it, why should anyone else. And the fact that you've heard about the problems in Paris means that they're being preety good at getting their message across. Precisely what's happened and is still happening here in the US

We've given them social welfare, we've given them health services, we've given them schools! We've given them lots. And many have taken the oppurtunity to better their lives. Some however, have not. These people don't need to kill people, tag on walls, burn trash cans. They have the ability to help themselves. We've given them the tools they need. There is something wrong with that portion of the black community.

Prove this statement or retract it.

I will. Give me some time, dont worry. I will. I have an essay due tomorrow. But I swear I will give you information. You can hold me to that. And if I can't prove my statement, I will retract it, because my statement has been proven wrong.

I happen to be a white male who is a founding member of NAACP chapter, as well as a current member.

When I read that, I was like, "Fuck you asshole. You were not a founding member of the NAACP". Then I reread it and I found the word "chapter". That's interesting. Ask some of your members if they notice a cultural difference. And, if you need reference, Bill Cosby and Chris Rock are both good examples.

To start off. The NAACP support race-based affrimative action. Anything that places one race above the other is, one word: racist.

and here's a website just to start it all off. Go down to the third paragraph.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=846

To start off. The NAACP support race-based affrimative action. Anything that places one race above the other is, one word: racist.

You clearly don't understand affirmative action and how it works. It does not place one race above another. It is, in fact, a tool to prevent discrimination.

and here's a website just to start it all off. Go down to the third paragraph.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=846

Meh. The NAACP did an ad about Shrub's opposition to hate crime legislation. So?

EDIT: The NAACP has been fighting for racial equality for over 95 years. http://www.naacp.org/about/about_history.html WTF have you done for equality?

You clearly don't understand affirmative action and how it works. It does not place one race above another. It is, in fact, a tool to prevent discrimination.

Ever heard of the Bakke case? He was clearly discriminated against. Affirmative action, race based, is in and of itself, racist. It clearly defines that if two people have equal potential, the person who is a 'minority', not an Asian minority mind you, but of any of the 'discriminated' minorities, is automatically given preference.

I'm sorry. But preference based on race is RACISM.

Ever heard of the Bakke case? He was clearly discriminated against. Affirmative action, race based, is in and of itself, racist. It clearly defines that if two people have equal potential, the person who is a 'minority', not an Asian minority mind you, but of any of the 'discriminated' minorities, is automatically given preference.

I'm sorry. But preference based on race is RACISM.

LOL.

In Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/438/265.html), 438 US 265 (1978), you are talking about 27 years ago. And you are talking about a program that was found unconstitutional. The Supreme Court ordered the admission of Mr. Bakke.

In fact, because of cases like Bakke, the simplistic racial model you are criticizing is not what affirmation action actually is.

Start a separate thread on affirmative action some time, and I'll school you.

Start a separate thread on affirmative action some time, and I'll school you.

Sounds fun. How about tomorrow? Same time, same place?

Sounds fun. How about tomorrow? Same time, same place?

Maybe. I may not be on tomorrow night.

Read some of the following links first (especially the first one):
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8465983&postcount=3
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9140528&postcount=62
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9171986&postcount=121
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm

BTW, if everyone that supports any form of affirmative action is a racist, then George W. Bush is a racist.

Just wondering what you think should happen with Mr. Williams. Should he be executed for his crimes? Should Gov. Schwarzenegger grant clemency?

I personally don't envy the Governor's decision on this matter. I would have a tough time deciding myself. I personally am leaning toward clemency which would mean he would not be executed and would spend the rest of his life in jail. What are your thoughts?


He is an animal and a thug. His so called anti-gang "activism" doesnt excuse his previous wrong doings. This barbaric animal deserves death....a painful one.

Death to all gang members! :sniper: :mp5:

They deserve nothing better.

Maybe. I may not be on tomorrow night.

Read some of the following links first (especially the first one):
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8465983&postcount=3
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9140528&postcount=62
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9171986&postcount=121
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm

BTW, if everyone that supports any form of affirmative action is a racist, then George W. Bush is a racist.

Well, I wouldn't be suprised... He did let New Orleans drown... (complete sarcasm).

All right, that's cool. I'll give those links a shot. I gotta do work, ttyl.

He is an animal and a thug. His so called anti-gang "activism" doesnt excuse his previous wrong doings. This barbaric animal deserves death....a painful one.

Death to all gang members! :sniper: :mp5:

They deserve nothing better.

Posts with sniper smileys are almost always asinine.

Posts with sniper smileys are almost always asinine.

:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: ::mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Like this?

Anyways, some of your points about affirmative action are interesting. I too, believe that merit should play a major part, and that an interview should be part of any job-qualification AND that test should NOT be the only determining factor.

However, I believe that by including race, you make race an issue. The continual need to bring up race, only revitalizes the issue. I fully support scholarships based on race, but making it a government institution is just wrong, just like affrimative action at public colleges. Private institutions are able to do whatever they wish within the confines of the law, and since they are private, may inpose affirmative action.

However, public institutions are meant to bridge the gap, not reinforce it.

This is an interesting topic for me. I belong to the magnet program, which is a federally supported percentage based affirmative action school system in the greater LA area. We, by law are required to have a certain percentage of minority and white students: 60% minority 40% white. However, it is based around certain activities such as love of music, theatre, science, math, etc.

I live in affirmative action. It's kind of funny. I only got in because I marked down white (I'm mixed races).