NationStates Jolt Archive


American Fascism?

Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:27
Warning: the following will disturb, annoy, amuse or confuse you. Brace yourself.
_________________________________________________________________

the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is. He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

He argued that because Fox News is owned by a conservative and because CNN, CBS, and NBC are all owned by a company that (among other things) makes weapons, that these networks will report only on the issues they want to, and only from their point of view. In other words, they will do what they can to make you love the state.

He then explained that no-bid contracts repeatedly given to Haliburton is an example of unnecessary manipulation of the economy for the benefit of the state. Obvious fascism :rolleyes:

He went on to describe the war in Iraq not as the liberation of a country oppresed by an insane despot or an attempt to get terrorism out of America, but as the imperial conquest of an oil-rich nation. Also, it supposedly gave haliburton, GE (owner of some of the above mentioned "propaganda machines"), and HP reason to build bombs like crazy and make money off of the war.

Lastly, he moved on to racism. In his twisted little mind, the slow response to hurricane Katrina was an attempt to wipe out an entire population of black liberals (im sure Bush wanted them to drown like rats). This is not to mention the growing racism in our population toward hispanic and middle-eastern imigrants (more fascism).

Firstly, id like to remind you that this is all happening in a HISTORY class rom. instead of telling his students about the Cold War, he was feeding them his political views.

Second of all, I was suprised by how easily my classmates accepted this as the truth. No one opposed him and after class everone seemed happy to accept the fact that their class had been hijacked by a conspiracy theorist.

By the time he was done with his lecture, I was mad. I decided to argue with him. First, I explained that just because the owner of a news station may sympathize with certain sides of an issue, does not mean she won't show both sides of an issue. In doing so, they would risked being labeled a bias...well, propaganda machine. This would not be profitable, and profit is what drives all corporations.

Thought it is true that certain corporations have the support of the government, this is common amongst any democratic society. Canada has the support of the lumber industry, South Korea has the support of the Tecnology industry. Are they all fascist? are you really implying that their is a fascist conspiracy afoot, led by billionares seeking world domination?

as for the racism, well, I laughed when he started trying to explain this. It is true that their is latent racism in America. To deny this would be ignorant. But comparing inneficiency on the part of FEMA to the holocaust? Comparing the general mistrust of people with turbans to the rape of Nanjing? If anything, this is similar to what happens when any nation is threatened by an enemy from overseas. Look at the Mcarthy era. Look at the the british in the 1970's. They passed a law similar to the Patriot act, and they wrongfully imprisoned Irish natives (whats the name of that irish family that had that movie made about them?) Im not saying this is right. But is it Fascism?!?!?!?

As for the war in Iraq, it is hard to know exactly what our motives are. I have a feeling that the objective was to get terrorists out of america. Think about it: an islamic nation is invaded, one with a general lack of islamic terrorists. If your Osama Bin-Laden, are you going to waste time sneeking a bomb into America, or are you going to run across the border to Iraq and start shooting americans there? this is the real logic, in my opinion, behind the Iraq war.

He also claimed that Iraq was no more oppresive under Saddam than America is under Bush. I burst out laughing when he said this. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: He compared Saddams systematic rape of women who show too much face to the west's general pressure towards women to get breast implants.(WTF!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?!):rolleyes:

Also, isnt a fascism a dictatorship, fueled by hatred and bloodlust? dont fascist economics call for the "corporation," not the kind WE have in america, but a state run economy devoid of competion? in the end, (in a way that would make Bill O'riely proud) I told him to stop dropping acid and f**king unicorns, and to come live in the real world, and he sent me to the principal. The principal scolded the teacher for going on his rant, and I felt happy. The Principal pointed out that such rants during school hours, could result in the school losing acredidation, and thus the right to teach. But this did not undo the damage done to my oh-so-easily manipulated classmates. While I realized how wrong this man is, the rest of my class has been brainwashed.

Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right? AM I INSANE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


PS: excuse my spelling, Im just pissed off.
Dehny
11-12-2005, 23:30
not all fascism is fueled by bloodlust and hatred. and unbiased media in america :rolleyes: also its proFit not proPHit
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:32
not all fascism is fueled by bloodlust and hatred. and unbiased media in america :rolleyes: also its proFit not proPHit

but does that make america fascist? if CNN leans to the left and Fox News to the right, are they propoganda machines? and, uh, thanks;)
Neo Mishakal
11-12-2005, 23:33
I think both Liberals and Conservatives are full of shiite!

If only the two parties in America gave me absolute power as Emperor I would fix all our problems! Trust me....;)
Teh_pantless_hero
11-12-2005, 23:34
Well, we know why he isn't a math professor. Or why you shouldn't quote people. Propaganda, economic manipulation, war, and racism are four things.
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:35
Well, we know why he isn't a math professor. Or why you shouldn't quote people. Propaganda, economic manipulation, war, and racism are four things.

ok fine, ill fix that too:headbang:
The South Islands
11-12-2005, 23:36
I think both Liberals and Conservatives are full of shiite!

If only the two parties in America gave me absolute power as Emperor I would fix all our problems! Trust me....;)

Judging by your previous posts, you would be worse than Stalin.

But, alas, I'm just a dirty libertarian capitalist. What do I know?
Empryia
11-12-2005, 23:37
There is a soft-fascism in the liberal agenda. Opposing views on any grounds marks you as a Nazi, while their views are sensible and rational...

Conservatives went into politics, liberals went into teaching...

You're not crazy. He's just a rabid fascist.
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:37
Judging by your previous posts, you would be worse than Stalin.

But, alas, I'm just a dirty libertarian capitalist. What do I know?

:fluffle:
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:39
There is a soft-fascism in the liberal agenda. Opposing views on any grounds marks you as a Nazi, while their views are sensible and rational...

Conservatives went into politics, liberals went into teaching...

You're not crazy. He's just a rabid fascist.

THATS what I wanted to hear. Maybe hes not so liberal, and im not so conservative. maybe its just a different way of looking at things, but im too closed minded...
5iam
11-12-2005, 23:42
Wow and I thought my two communist teachers in HS were bad...
Korrithor
11-12-2005, 23:48
While it is technically true that America has never issued a call for lebensraum, abolished representative democracy, or shipped political dissidents off to education camps, disturbing trends certainly are appearing. For instance, just the other day I saw on the news someone calling America a fascist nation full of people who want to kill the whole world. Commentators actually thought that this person was crazy! How dare they! Now I know that Americans shunning other people who say America wants to kill the world isn't actually the same sending people off to death camps, but in our advanced post-modern society, we must learn to understand these things as potent metaphors.
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:49
Wow and I thought my two communist teachers in HS were bad...

hehe, you only had two? ALL of my teachers are extreme liberals. Maybe thats why im so pissed off. For confluence, we went on a nature walk where the teachers tried to make us vegetarians. In english, they MADE us write an article about how great trees are. :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:
The South Islands
11-12-2005, 23:51
:fluffle:

Hmmm...I think I'll go oppress the Proletariat now.
Personal Glory
11-12-2005, 23:53
Hmmm...I think I'll go oppress the Proletariat now.
thats the spirit, laddy!! and eat a hobo, while your at it....
5iam
11-12-2005, 23:57
While it is technically true that America has never issued a call for lebensraum, abolished representative democracy, or shipped political dissidents off to education camps, disturbing trends certainly are appearing. For instance, just the other day I saw on the news someone calling America a fascist nation full of people who want to kill the whole world. Commentators actually thought that this person was crazy! How dare they! Now I know that Americans shunning other people who say America wants to kill the world isn't actually the same sending people off to death camps, but in our advanced post-modern society, we must learn to understand these things as potent metaphors.
Why shouldn't commentators be able to say whatever they want as well?

Freedom of speech goes both ways.
Korrithor
12-12-2005, 00:00
Why shouldn't commentators be able to say whatever they want as well?

Freedom of speech goes both ways.

I was being sarcastic. I should've noted that though, my bad. You can never tell here :p
Euraustralasamerica
12-12-2005, 00:06
Oh, the irony. While I disagree with how far he went in calling America fascist, I think a lot of people would agree that there are indeed some disturbing trends going on in the country right now.
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 00:07
Oh, the irony. While I disagree with how far he went in calling America fascist, I think a lot of people would agree that there are indeed some disturbing trends going on in the country right now.

Not along the lines of popular fascism.
Empryia
12-12-2005, 00:08
Hmmm...I think I'll go oppress the Proletariat now.

Damn straight. The Proletariat is getting a little uppity lately. Did you know these idiot Union workers at Ralph's, a local grocery chain, wanted to ask for ANOTHER wage increase!!!! A fucking unionized cashier, at start, gets a total of $11.50 an hour, not including health insurance, etc that only pays for them, but for their ENTIRE families! And they wanted a dollar fifty increase on just pure wage, not to mention their other demands?!?! WTF?!?!
Super-power
12-12-2005, 00:08
[LIST=1]I told him to stop dropping acid and f**king unicorns, and to come live in the real world, and he sent me to the principal.
Oh the poor unicorns!!! :D

Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right? AM I INSANE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
It's not fascism if we do it! (http://billstclair.com/blog/images/fascism_not_us_1.jpg). Note the subtle Democratic AND Republican logos in that pic. :p :D
Korrithor
12-12-2005, 00:10
Also a reason to favor the 2nd Ammendment. An armed populace is alot harder to push around.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:11
Oh, the irony. While I disagree with how far he went in calling America fascist, I think a lot of people would agree that there are indeed some disturbing trends going on in the country right now.

Wait, Irony?

and though I agree their are disturbing trends, they do not lead down the slippery slope to a state resembling Nazi dictatorship. We have been here before (read about Mcarthy), and we made it out just fine.
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 00:12
Also a reason to favor the 2nd Ammendment. An armed populace is alot harder to push around.
*does 2nd amendment dance*
Forfania Gottesleugner
12-12-2005, 00:12
hehe, you only had two? ALL of my teachers are extreme liberals. Maybe thats why im so pissed off. For confluence, we went on a nature walk where the teachers tried to make us vegetarians. In english, they MADE us write an article about how great trees are. :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

Trees are great you owe them your life show some goddamn respect.

As for vegetarians, they should stop worrying about animals that would kill you without a thought(yes even innocent little cows don't give a rats ass if you live or die) and get off their asses and go work to help some real people since they care so much about life. Only the priviledged can turn down food because it had eyes.
Of the council of clan
12-12-2005, 00:12
Damn straight. The Proletariat is getting a little uppity lately. Did you know these idiot Union workers at Ralph's, a local grocery chain, wanted to ask for ANOTHER wage increase!!!! A fucking unionized cashier, at start, gets a total of $11.50 an hour, not including health insurance, etc that only pays for them, but for their ENTIRE families! And they wanted a dollar fifty increase on just pure wage, not to mention their other demands?!?! WTF?!?!



damn their Chapter of the UFCW is definetly stronger than mine

(started at 5.75 but now am making 8.25)
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 00:12
Trees are great you owe them your life show some goddamn respect.

As for vegetarians, they should stop worrying about animals that would kill you without a thought(yes even innocent little cows don't give a rats ass if you live or die) and get off their asses and go work to help some real people since they care so much about life. Only the priviledged can turn down food because it had eyes.


I'm sure the trees will be VERY offended.

Perhaps they will go on strike.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:14
Oh the poor unicorns!!! :D


It's not fascism if we do it! (http://billstclair.com/blog/images/fascism_not_us_1.jpg). Note the subtle Democratic AND Republican logos in that pic. :p :D
:D awsomesauce!!! just need to edit out the republicans, for accuracy's sake...:p (jk,jk)
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 00:15
Note the subtle Democratic AND Republican logos in that pic. :p :D

I didn't see the Democratic logo.
BrightonBurg
12-12-2005, 00:16
The Amercian Constiutional Republic is so far from being fascist, anyone who says so, has a agenda, mainly that they dislike the current President. I am sure from the years 93-2000, this college " professor" did not think the US was fascist. its the normal battle cry of the left.

and its getting bloody boring, you want fascism? try Burma, they have nice cuddley form of REAL oppression.

I have good news for the left, and those who dislike President Bush, by Constiution, He is barred from running again, and the left gets a new shot at the whitehouse, but be wary, for if you want " change" you just might get it, and a more even hardline Conservative may win the whitehouse, and make the moderate Bush look like, well.. the moderate he is.


my 2 cents for the forum :)
Eutrusca
12-12-2005, 00:16
Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right?
No, you're not a "fascist." No, President Bush is not a "fascist." No, your "teacher" is not correct.

I don't know how old your "teacher" is, but he sounds frighteningly like one of the leftovers from the age of hippies ... those who, to avoid the draft, fled to academia and wound up staying there because they couldn't cope with the reality of the outside world. They now have tenure and feel they can spout their leftist bullshit to unsuspecting blank minds with total impunity. :headbang:
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:16
*does 2nd amendment dance*

Thomas Jefferson:
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-to William Stephens Smith, 1787
but, if you support the second ammendment your a fascist, remember? it puts you in league wit the evil republicans:eek:
Letila
12-12-2005, 00:21
The term "fascist" is used rather carelessly if you ask me. There are real fascists out there, and it really isn't a good idea to dilute the term attacking supposed fascists.
Euraustralasamerica
12-12-2005, 00:23
Wait, Irony?

and though I agree their are disturbing trends, they do not lead down the slippery slope to a state resembling Nazi dictatorship. We have been here before (read about Mcarthy), and we made it out just fine.

Facism doesn't necessarily mean Nazism.
ScarletOHaraville
12-12-2005, 00:23
Warning: the following will disturb, annoy, amuse or confuse you. Brace yourself.
_________________________________________________________________

[QUOTE]the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is.

When you begin the discussion in this fashion, it suggests you have an initial bias against the theory your teacher offered----regardless of what is being said. The only way to understand any view is to approach it objectively.


He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

I'd be interested to know from where these criteria for "fascism" come. They are not textbook definitions for "fascism."


He argued that because Fox News is owned by a conservative and because CNN, CBS, and NBC are all owned by a company that (among other things) makes weapons, that these networks will report only on the issues they want to, and only from their point of view.

It is true that Rupert Murdoch is an ultra-conservative, and that FOX News is openly-conservative in their reporting and OP-ED. It is likewise true that the senior news staff determines which stories are covered and, more importantly, which are not. I'm not convinced that "economic motive=lack of objectivity."

He then explained that no-bid contracts repeatedly given to Haliburton is an example of unnecessary manipulation of the economy for the benefit of the state.

This point is difficult to dispute, frankly. Even the U.S. Congress is taking a closer look at the awarding of contracts during the initial phase of the Iraq Conflict. The relationship between Vice-President Cheney and the continual initial awarding of no-bids to Halliburton should be a source of concern for any thinking person. And then there is that pesky issue of the absence of WMD---or even gunpowder---in Iraq.

He went on to describe the war in Iraq not as the liberation of a country oppresed by an insane despot or an attempt to get terrorism out of America, but as the imperial conquest of an oil-rich nation. Also, it supposedly gave haliburton, GE (owner of some of the above mentioned "propaganda machines"), and HP reason to build bombs like crazy and make money off of the war.

Which is, by the way, precisely what was uncovered following Vietnam. Bell and McDonald Douglas benefitted dramatically from the escalation in Vietnam following Pres. Johnson's repeal of Pres. Kennedy's executive order to begin troop withdrawal. Remember also that the "liberation" of Iraq from Hussein was NOT the justification given initially for the war; it was an after-the-fact add-on once serious questions----asked PRE-WAR---about the intelligence establishing WMD were being asked. Neither Congress nor the American people would have ever approved of military action on such a large scale simply to "free" Iraq.

And as for the oil located there, simply ask yourself one question: Aren't there other despot inflicting pain and torture on their citizens in other parts of the world? Why aren't we invading those countries?

Lastly, he moved on to racism. In his twisted little mind, the slow response to hurricane Katrina was an attempt to wipe out an entire population of black liberals (im sure Bush wanted them to drown like rats). This is not to mention the growing racism in our population toward hispanic and middle-eastern imigrants (more fascism).

I won't address the relative size of your teacher's mind or his experience and training relative to yours. I will say, however, that he needs to support such desparaging governmental motives with facts. The real story behind the flooding in the New Orleans districts was the under-funding Army Corps of Engineers budgets-----budgets needed to maintain the levies, and budgets which were cut three years in a row leading up to the flooding. The flooding and resulting catastrophe had been suggested by ACE officials in the area, but was ignored during the budgets slashes. THAT'S the real story here, and the media has yet to really touch it. Forget the issue of racism. Ask the real question.

Firstly, like to remind you that this is all happening in a HISTORY class rom. instead of telling his students about the Cold War, he was feeding them his political views

What is past is prologue. Be thankful your teacher was discussing something relevant. I also notice you used the word "them" (rather than "us") to describe the students. Sure you were in this class, or is this just a rumor (or worse) you're repeating from some right-wing publication?

By the time he was done with his lecture, I was mad. I decided to argue with him. First, I explained that just because the owner of a news station may sympathize with certain sides of an issue, does not mean she won't show both sides of an issue. In doing so, they would risked being labeled a bias...well, propaganda machine. This would not be profitable, and profit is what drives all corporations.

READ: FOX News Corporation. Their profit margin is not hurting one bit. "Fair and Balanced?" Sure.


As for the war in Iraq, it is hard to know exactly what our motives are. I have a feeling that the objective was to get terrorists out of america. Think about it: an islamic nation is invaded, one with a general lack of islamic terrorists. If your Osama Bin-Laden, are you going to waste time sneeking a bomb into America, or are you going to run across the border to Iraq and start shooting americans there? this is the real logic, in my opinion, behind the Iraq war.

You lost me here. 9/11 preceded the war in Iraq, not the opposite. There were not Iraqi terrorits in the US prior to the war. Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia did, however, have terror cells here. So we invaded Iraq. Your logic is strained and chronologically backwards.

He also claimed that Iraq was no more oppresive under Saddam than America is under Bush.

Now that is just stupid. I can't defend a comment like that.

Also, isnt a fascism a dictatorship, fueled by hatred and bloodlust? dont fascist economics call for the "corporation," not the kind WE have in america, but a state run economy devoid of competion?

No. You're juxtaposing totalitarian states; dictatorships, fascist states and company-owned worlds. Check below for a handy quick-reference:

http://www.orionsarm.com/civ/government.html
Deep Kimchi
12-12-2005, 00:23
If all the news organizations were run by the government, you could make a case for the propaganda being part of a fascist government.

As it is, the news networks only owe the FCC the avoidance of several naughty words, and owe the prevention of "wardrobe malfunctions".

Hardly "fascist" propaganda.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:25
[QUOTE=Forfania Gottesleugner]Trees are great you owe them your life show some goddamn respect. QUOTE]

maybe I should have been more clear. The town I live in is expanding, and we just cut down a bunch of trees to make room for population growth. Son our teach MADE us write letters to the editor for our paper, explaining how evil this was.
Neu Leonstein
12-12-2005, 00:37
Two things:
1) "Liberal" has nothing to do with the left.

2) Either your teacher, or you, or maybe both have to do some research on what Fascism is.

Some of the points of the fascist program are indeed relatively close to America, but closer still to China.
Read these links (The Holocaust has nothing to do with fascism, and neither does racism really. You're thinking of Nazism.)

The Fascist Manifesto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_manifesto#Contents_of_the_Fascist_Manifesto) (Italy, 1919)
Mussolini: "What is Fascism?" (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html)
Nazism vs Fascism (http://www.colby.edu/personal/r/rmscheck/GermanyE6.html)
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:43
When you begin the discussion in this fashion, it suggests you have an initial bias against the theory your teacher offered----regardless of what is being said. The only way to understand any view is to approach it objectively.

ill admit im bias. By reading the post, you could probably gather that...

I'd be interested to know from where these criteria for "fascism" come. They are not textbook definitions for "fascism."

I asked him that, and he said that it was "well known fact.":rolleyes:

It is true that Rupert Murdoch is an ultra-conservative, and that FOX News is openly-conservative in their reporting and OP-ED. It is likewise true that the senior news staff determines which stories are covered and, more importantly, which are not. I'm not convinced that "economic motive=lack of objectivity."
OPENLY conservative. Its not propaganda, if they admit it. (though, I may be wrong.)

Which is, by the way, precisely what was uncovered following Vietnam. Bell and McDonald Douglas benefitted dramatically from the escalation in Vietnam following Pres. Johnson's repeal of Pres. Kennedy's executive order to begin troop withdrawal. Remember also that the "liberation" of Iraq from Hussein was NOT the justification given initially for the war; it was an after-the-fact add-on once serious questions----asked PRE-WAR---about the intelligence establishing WMD were being asked. Neither Congress nor the American people would have ever approved of military action on such a large scale simply to "free" Iraq.
yes, this is all true. Maybe thats where the left has its biggest point

And as for the oil located there, simply ask yourself one question: Aren't there other despot inflicting pain and torture on their citizens in other parts of the world? Why aren't we invading those countries?



I won't address the relative size of your teacher's mind or his experience and training relative to yours. I will say, however, that he needs to support such desparaging governmental motives with facts. The real story behind the flooding in the New Orleans districts was the under-funding Army Corps of Engineers budgets-----budgets needed to maintain the levies, and budgets which were cut three years in a row leading up to the flooding. The flooding and resulting catastrophe had been suggested by ACE officials in the area, but was ignored during the budgets slashes. THAT'S the real story here, and the media has yet to really touch it. Forget the issue of racism. Ask the real question.
your right, attacking his intelligence was in poor taste, and I apologize. And it is true that his credentials are much better than mine. as for katrina, I dont think mis-management of funding for the levies means bush is fascist.

What is past is prologue. Be thankful your teacher was discussing something relevant. I also notice you used the word "them" (rather than "us") to describe the students. Sure you were in this class, or is this just a rumor (or worse) you're repeating from some right-wing publication?

THEM, as in my classmates. I dont consider myself brainwashed.

You lost me here. 9/11 preceded the war in Iraq, not the opposite. There were not Iraqi terrorits in the US prior to the war. Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia did, however, have terror cells here. So we invaded Iraq. Your logic is strained and chronologically backwards.

I only meant that by putting americans into a counry where they are easier to shoot at has detered a SECOND 9/11 within american borders. the terrorists that were here have moved (or have shifted their efforts towards) to Britain, Spain and Iraq.

Now that is just stupid. I can't defend a comment like that.
:p


No. You're juxtaposing totalitarian states; dictatorships, fascist states and company-owned worlds. Check below for a handy quick-reference:

http://www.orionsarm.com/civ/government.html

I was going off what ive read in the past. thanks for the resource, ill take a look at it.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 00:49
Two things:
1) "Liberal" has nothing to do with the left.

2) Either your teacher, or you, or maybe both have to do some research on what Fascism is.

Some of the points of the fascist program are indeed relatively close to America, but closer still to China.
Read these links (The Holocaust has nothing to do with fascism, and neither does racism really. You're thinking of Nazism.)

The Fascist Manifesto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_manifesto#Contents_of_the_Fascist_Manifesto) (Italy, 1919)
Mussolini: "What is Fascism?" (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html)
Nazism vs Fascism (http://www.colby.edu/personal/r/rmscheck/GermanyE6.html)

theres two forms of liberalism: modern liberalism (democrats) and classic liberalism (libertarians). at least, from what I know....

and thanks for the links, Ill look into those too
Neu Leonstein
12-12-2005, 00:54
theres two forms of liberalism: modern liberalism (democrats) and classic liberalism (libertarians). at least, from what I know....
Well, let's just say that this modern liberalism doesn't exist outside the US.
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 00:57
Well, let's just say that this modern liberalism doesn't exist outside the US.

More like Liberal Conservativism, no?
DrunkenDove
12-12-2005, 00:59
I don't know how old your "teacher" is, but he sounds frighteningly like one of the leftovers from the age of hippies ... those who, to avoid the draft, fled to academia and wound up staying there because they couldn't cope with the reality of the outside world. They now have tenure and feel they can spout their leftist bullshit to unsuspecting blank minds with total impunity. :headbang:

Do you rail against the conservatives that went into the army and now spout their rightist bullshit to unsuspecting blank minds with total impunity as well?
Neu Leonstein
12-12-2005, 01:00
More like Liberal Conservativism, no?
Kinda...although liberal conservatism is a bit of an oxymoron.

Liberalism is essentially to let people do as they want. The primacy of the individual. It's neither left nor right...it supports the right's economic policy and the left's social policies.

Conservatism is the subordinance of the individual to established rules and traditions. Society is perceived to be too complex a thing to be meddled in by anyone, and so change of society is opposed. Or so goes the rational explanation, although most conservatives simply hate everything that doesn't seem orthodox to them.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:06
Kinda...although liberal conservatism is a bit of an oxymoron.

Liberalism is essentially to let people do as they want. The primacy of the individual. It's neither left nor right...it supports the right's economic policy and the left's social policies.

Conservatism is the subordinance of the individual to established rules and traditions. Society is perceived to be too complex a thing to be meddled in by anyone, and so change of society is opposed. Or so goes the rational explanation, although most conservatives simply hate everything that doesn't seem orthodox to them.
True. I guess modern Liberals consist of Leftist democrats calling themselves liberals.
Neu Leonstein
12-12-2005, 01:09
True. I guess modern Liberals consist of Leftist democrats calling themselves liberals.
Do they actually call themselves that?

I must confess that the only people I have heard using the word in the US were usually talking about "the liberals" as "the others"...
DrunkenDove
12-12-2005, 01:10
True. I guess modern Liberals consist of Leftist democrats calling themselves liberals.

In America.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:14
In America.
hence the term, "democrat."
Vetalia
12-12-2005, 01:17
You can tell America isn't fascist because he can go off on a tangent like that without being arrested and/or shot in the middle of the night...
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:18
Do they actually call themselves that?

I must confess that the only people I have heard using the word in the US were usually talking about "the liberals" as "the others"...

yes, they do. Its mainly to give them the feel of being "Progressive" or "revolutionary." :rolleyes:
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:19
You can tell America isn't fascist because he can go off on a tangent like that without being arrested and/or shot in the middle of the night...
:fluffle: Ill tell him that tommorow.....
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 01:24
the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is. He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

Interesting. Was he trying to stir debate or did you get the sense that he believed it. He might need a lesson as to what is facism. Is he talking about Germany? If so he is way off. An old girlfriends Grandad lived under Hitler. Fought against the Soviets and just missed the Battle of Stalingrad. He was an interesting fellow to talk about that era......


He argued that because Fox News is owned by a conservative and because CNN, CBS, and NBC are all owned by a company that (among other things) makes weapons, that these networks will report only on the issues they want to, and only from their point of view. In other words, they will do what they can to make you love the state.

He is so off on the love the state part. If you want to see propaganda, look up some of the Gobbels. Heck I watched one of his things about the "evil" jews and I found myself not liking them. He knew how to stir emotions.

Fox, CNN, CBS, everybody else that is owned by a corporation is there to make a profit. They will post what the people want to hear. What is going to get them the most money to sell commercials. There is no "organized" plan to sway the public. The people follow the stations that fill their political ideology.

If America was facist, would we not have only one news outlet that is goverment controlled? Would not any story that made the goverment look bad be censored.

Sorry he is off on this one.....


He then explained that no-bid contracts repeatedly given to Haliburton is an example of unnecessary manipulation of the economy for the benefit of the state. Obvious fascism :rolleyes:

It happens all the time. Does not define the state as facist. Corrupt maybe; but facist?


He went on to describe the war in Iraq not as the liberation of a country oppresed by an insane despot or an attempt to get terrorism out of America, but as the imperial conquest of an oil-rich nation. Also, it supposedly gave haliburton, GE (owner of some of the above mentioned "propaganda machines"), and HP reason to build bombs like crazy and make money off of the war.


About the only HP bombs I have seen was the early Kayak systems :P Maybe their purchase of compaq and digital could be called bombs. :)

He is correct that this war was not the liberation of a people. If that was the case, we would have had troops in Dafur, Rawanda, etc. This was about a personal vendita(he tried to kill my daddy), possibly trying to be better then daddy, and of course oil. Don't forget we were supposed to stop Sadaam from having Nukes. Hmmm Iran is talking about Nukes and we aren't doing anything....


Lastly, he moved on to racism. In his twisted little mind, the slow response to hurricane Katrina was an attempt to wipe out an entire population of black liberals (im sure Bush wanted them to drown like rats). This is not to mention the growing racism in our population toward hispanic and middle-eastern imigrants (more fascism).


Well wanting to wipe out black liberals is a tad harsh. However, if it was a wealthy white area would the response have been the same? It does beg the question. Hmmm how much aid did Florida get with Hugo?


Firstly, id like to remind you that this is all happening in a HISTORY class rom. instead of telling his students about the Cold War, he was feeding them his political views.

Meh. It's his class so he gets to do what he wants.....


Second of all, I was suprised by how easily my classmates accepted this as the truth. No one opposed him and after class everone seemed happy to accept the fact that their class had been hijacked by a conspiracy theorist.

Just because they don't answer does not mean they accepted it.


By the time he was done with his lecture, I was mad. I decided to argue with him. First, I explained that just because the owner of a news station may sympathize with certain sides of an issue, does not mean she won't show both sides of an issue. In doing so, they would risked being labeled a bias...well, propaganda machine. This would not be profitable, and profit is what drives all corporations.

Actually the media outlets don't always present a balanced picture of the situation.

About the only outlet that I have seen print stuff without overt bias is off all things the little newspapers by the Christian Science Monitor.

I don't follow the US media for world news. I tend to use the BBC. For national coverage, I tend to use the Washington Post.


Thought it is true that certain corporations have the support of the government, this is common amongst any democratic society. Canada has the support of the lumber industry, South Korea has the support of the Tecnology industry. Are they all fascist? are you really implying that their is a fascist conspiracy afoot, led by billionares seeking world domination?

Not a good counter example; goverment subsides of economic industries vs the media?

As for the war in Iraq, it is hard to know exactly what our motives are. I have a feeling that the objective was to get terrorists out of america. Think about it: an islamic nation is invaded, one with a general lack of islamic terrorists. If your Osama Bin-Laden, are you going to waste time sneeking a bomb into America, or are you going to run across the border to Iraq and start shooting americans there? this is the real logic, in my opinion, behind the Iraq war.

You underestimate the terrorists. Why would you change the plan to simply go fight in a country? Why isn't Bin-Laden there?

It's about the oil. China is becoming a major player for oil now....


He also claimed that Iraq was no more oppresive under Saddam than America is under Bush. I burst out laughing when he said this. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: He compared Saddams systematic rape of women who show too much face to the west's general pressure towards women to get breast implants.(WTF!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?!):rolleyes:


Well I would like to have heard what he said.....


Also, isnt a fascism a dictatorship, fueled by hatred and bloodlust?

No.

dont fascist economics call for the "corporation," not the kind WE have in america, but a state run economy devoid of competion? in the end, (in a way that would make Bill O'riely proud) I told him to stop dropping acid and f**king unicorns, and to come live in the real world, and he sent me to the principal.


Well that was a tad childish. Whatever valid points you were making were lost.

The principal scolded the teacher for going on his rant, and I felt happy. The Principal pointed out that such rants during school hours, could result in the school losing acredidation, and thus the right to teach. But this did not undo the damage done to my oh-so-easily manipulated classmates. While I realized how wrong this man is, the rest of my class has been brainwashed.

Just because your classmates didn't speak up hardly defines them as brainwashed.

Your principles statement does fly in the face of the "evil" liberal control of the education system.
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 01:28
hence the term, "democrat."

Psst. Even democrat is different in other countries.
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 01:29
You can tell America isn't fascist because he can go off on a tangent like that without being arrested and/or shot in the middle of the night...

Bingo boobie!
Lunatic Goofballs
12-12-2005, 01:29
Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right? AM I INSANE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!



Nope. Yep. Nope. Yep. :D
Lydania
12-12-2005, 01:30
Do you rail against the conservatives that went into the army and now spout their rightist bullshit to unsuspecting blank minds with total impunity as well?


Psst. *whispers* Probably not, because it's bad form to rail against your own.

Just so you know.
Neu Leonstein
12-12-2005, 01:30
:fluffle: Ill tell him that tommorow.....
Fascist Italy wasn't that oppressive though.

It simply demanded that everything devote themselves not only to their own good, but to the good of the country and the idea. That wasn't necessarily done by force, but often simply with social pressures.
One could argue that the same can be true for the US from time to time.

The Corporate world was directly involved with the government. The government would sit together with corporate bosses and develop policies together. The same seems to be true in the US sometimes, although I have yet to see representatives of the labour force being involved in those discussions.

Military spending is huge in the US, no doubt about it.

But mostly, it is this emotional appeal to the "Land of the Free", to "Democracy", to "We're the best country in the world, the shining city on the hill" and so on that is most like Fascism.
I don't often get the feeling that politics in the US is handled particularly rationally. Candidates are chosen on character, political opponents are demonised rather than debated, people choose parties simply because they hate (!) the alternative...and all the while people parrot the same tired lines in order to make it look like they know about the issues.
I ask you this: Could a Grand Coalition ever happen in the US?
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:46
Fox, CNN, CBS, everybody else that is owned by a corporation is there to make a profit. They will post what the people want to hear. What is going to get them the most money to sell commercials. There is no "organized" plan to sway the public. The people follow the stations that fill their political ideology.
what I said, in a manor of speaking.

It happens all the time. Does not define the state as facist. Corrupt maybe; but facist?

again, agreed

About the only HP bombs I have seen was the early Kayak systems :P Maybe their purchase of compaq and digital could be called bombs. :)
:D

He is correct that this war was not the liberation of a people. If that was the case, we would have had troops in Dafur, Rawanda, etc. This was about a personal vendita(he tried to kill my daddy), possibly trying to be better then daddy, and of course oil. Don't forget we were supposed to stop Sadaam from having Nukes. Hmmm Iran is talking about Nukes and we aren't doing anything....
I agree that it is not entirely a war for liberation. However, the terrorists would have an easier time making and using bombs in america. As for Iran, I think Bush is afraid it would make us look bad. 40% of their population is in their teen years. Thats a lot of dead kids for the media to look at.


Well wanting to wipe out black liberals is a tad harsh. However, if it was a wealthy white area would the response have been the same? It does beg the question. Hmmm how much aid did Florida get with Hugo?
If New Orleans looked like beverly hills, no one would have died. By the time the Levies broke, they would have all left in their gold plated airplanes, drinking thousand-dollar bottles of liquer.

Meh. It's his class so he gets to do what he wants.....
legally, not true. One of the fellow students who DIDNT agree with this guy happens to be the son of a republican senator (who supports Bush). The senator claims that, as soon as any opinions are given without factual basis, it is a political institution, not a school. Fair? no. But thats the law. He could get the school sued for that.

Just because they don't answer does not mean they accepted it.
After class, I asked them. The most common answer was "I dont give a Flying F*ck." (of course, the rednecks said they wanted to ship him out to Iraq:rolleyes: )

Actually the media outlets don't always present a balanced picture of the situation.
But they dont always support the state either.

I don't follow the US media for world news. I tend to use the BBC. For national coverage, I tend to use the Washington Post.
something we have in common.

Not a good counter example; goverment subsides of economic industries vs the media?
sorry, that was meant to go against the Halliburton comment.

You underestimate the terrorists. Why would you change the plan to simply go fight in a country? Why isn't Bin-Laden there?
it would be eaisier.

It's about the oil. China is becoming a major player for oil now....
The kurds just signed all their oil over to the Swedes. How did we benefit? (or china, for that matter...)

Well I would like to have heard what he said.....
I told him that Muslim dictatorships are overtly sexist because they systematically execute women who "show to much face." he said "sure, but in america, we make women feel bad about themselves. How is sixteen-year-olds getting breast implants any different?" you can see where I started to lose respect for the man.

No.

...ok

Well that was a tad childish. Whatever valid points you were making were lost.
blame anger managment issues for that...

Just because your classmates didn't speak up hardly defines them as brainwashed.
see above
Your principles statement does fly in the face of the "evil" liberal control of the education system.
right. but I think shes the only one... while she was lecturing the history teacher, I went to my spanish language class where I learned more about american Imperialism.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:49
But mostly, it is this emotional appeal to the "Land of the Free", to "Democracy", to "We're the best country in the world, the shining city on the hill" and so on that is most like Fascism.

This is nationalism, and I too am worried about it. While I doubt that it will lead to a fascist police state, it will no doubt earn us a slap on the wrist in the future.
Juche Resistance
12-12-2005, 01:56
Most of what he said is true. America isn't fascist though, rather it is more of a Corporate state, where the Corporations really rule.

I won't get into the details, because anyone who doesn't believe that America should have a "Corporate" in front of it is clearly a blind fool.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 01:58
Most of what he said is true. America isn't fascist though, rather it is more of a Corporate state, where the Corporations really rule.

I won't get into the details, because anyone who doesn't believe that America should have a "Corporate" in front of it is clearly a blind fool.
we'll take your word for it:D
The Final Freedom
12-12-2005, 02:33
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.
Of the council of clan
12-12-2005, 02:34
right. but I think shes the only one... while she was lecturing the history teacher, I went to my spanish language class where I learned more about american Imperialism.



Have you actually Learned about how the USA treated Latin America in the early part of the 20th Century?


I don't think we're being Imperialist right now, but back then, we were just a tad Imperialist.

Ever heard of the Platt Amendment? Roosevelt Corrolary of the Monroe Doctorine?
Vetalia
12-12-2005, 02:34
Most of what he said is true. America isn't fascist though, rather it is more of a Corporate state, where the Corporations really rule..

We seemed to have turned out more than alright...I guess the corporations are quite competent at governance.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 02:55
Have you actually Learned about how the USA treated Latin America in the early part of the 20th Century?


I don't think we're being Imperialist right now, but back then, we were just a tad Imperialist.

Ever heard of the Platt Amendment? Roosevelt Corrolary of the Monroe Doctorine?

I agree, but what does that have to do with spanish? I go there to learn the language, not the politics, of the spanish-speaking world.Comprende ese?;) (but I do agree, the thing in guatemala was just plain ugly.)
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 02:58
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.
wait, thats not what I said at all. Let me be clear. FASCISM IS EVIL. I HATE FASCISM. as for the rest, well, I dont think ill touch that, for fear of being put in league with you.
Moantha
12-12-2005, 03:03
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.

And while we're at it, let's make speaking out against Bush punishable by death sentence, get rid of Congress, (They're just slowing things down) and line up everyone who opposed the war in Iraq and shoot them. Meanwhile, let's completely ignore the fact that almost everything that you just said flies in the face, not only of the Constitution- but of the values that are at the very base of American society.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 03:04
And while we're at it, let's make speaking out against Bush punishable by death sentence, get rid of Congress, (They're just slowing things down) and line up everyone who opposed the war in Iraq and shoot them. Meanwhile, let's completely ignore the fact that almost everything that you just said flies in the face, not only of the Constitution- but of the values that are at the very base of American society.
what you said (I mean that as sarcastically as you do;) )
Nugistan
12-12-2005, 03:09
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.

brilliant satire.
Accrued Constituencies
12-12-2005, 03:12
Its funny, America is somewhat fascist in the way they (re)defined 'Fascism' themselves as victors over the axis powers, but are they Fascist in the way such self-styled regimes had perceived themselves? No.

There may be vast private business corporations being helped by the government in the United States, but that is not the publicly organized corporativism that Mussolini envisioned whatsoever. The word 'corporate' in the Italian Fascist usage was as 'incorporate' and didn't at all relate to a direct capitalist ownership conception that the word implies today. In-fact, a corporation isn't necessary for profit at all, it is a legal entity not an economic one.

If Fascism is just coercion in a capitalist context, then America may have plenty of things that could be examples of such, but true "Fascism", even Nazism, had a lot different and more complex governmental systematization than that. If you want to redefine 'fascism' from without, apart from its own ideology of itself, then you could consider it whatever you like, but then it would be fair to do the same thing to communism as well, and democracy, and whatever else.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 03:13
brilliant satire.
I hope so, otherwise...:eek:

by the way, I didnt say that america was glorious, that Bush is the greatest president ever, or that torture should be legal. I simply said that we're not fascist. if we were then...well, lets just say I would "take advantage" of the second ammendment.
Canada6
12-12-2005, 03:31
I believe that if the Neo-Conservatives weren't occasionaly held in check by American public opinion and in part by the democratic party, the USA would eventually become a corporatist and possibly fascist state. That may not be a very popular opinion but that's what I believe.
Vetalia
12-12-2005, 03:34
I believe that if the Neo-Conservatives weren't occasionaly held in check by American public opinion and in part by the democratic party, the USA would eventually become a corporatist and possibly fascist state. That may not be a very popular opinion but that's what I believe.

I believe the same of the far left in America; public opinion keeps both extremes in line.
Canada6
12-12-2005, 03:39
I believe the same of the far left in America; public opinion keeps both extremes in line.
I'm sorry but I don't see how the far left in America being socially progressive can create a corporatist and/or fascist state. A corporatist and/or fascist state is not socially progressive by any stretch of the battery acid powered imagination.
Tartare
12-12-2005, 04:01
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.


Okay, who loaned Ann Coulter their logon?
Canada6
12-12-2005, 04:05
Someone with the word Freedom in their nick defending fascism. :D LOL

Assuming this person is american, I must say for the third time and borrowing someone else's quote. It's a shame that a nation founded by liberals today considers liberal as a bad word.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:20
Assuming this person is american, I must say for the third time and borrowing someone else's quote. It's a shame that a nation founded by liberals today considers liberal as a bad word.

What? Bush is considered an extreme conservative by most, and his approval rating is in the crapper. If the "liberals" dont win, than they have issues (and so do the voters.)
Canada6
12-12-2005, 04:29
What? Bush is considered an extreme conservative by most, and his approval rating is in the crapper. If the "liberals" dont win, than they have issues (and so do the voters.) I don't share your optimism.
If Feingold wins the whitehouse in 2008, then I'll come back and say you were right.
Yingzhou
12-12-2005, 04:35
hehe, you only had two? ALL of my teachers are extreme liberals. Maybe thats why im so pissed off. For confluence, we went on a nature walk where the teachers tried to make us vegetarians. In english, they MADE us write an article about how great trees are. :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

So? None of these are accurate qualifiers of 'liberalism'.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:36
I don't share your optimism.
If Feingold wins the whitehouse in 2008, then I'll come back and say you were right.
though I dont see Feingold winning any time soon, Hilary Clinton and John Mcain (not a liberal, but a respectable moderate) are frontrunners this early in the game. I doubt Jeb Bush or any of his Christian-right cohorts have a shot at making it out of the primaries.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:37
So? None of these are accurate qualifiers of 'liberalism'.
dammit, I already explained this. I mean modern american liberalism, which is leftist.
Read on before you criticize!!!:mp5:
Canada6
12-12-2005, 04:41
Considering that I'm canadian, McCain and Hillary are probably both conservatives to me. Perhaps McCain would be less conservative Hillary.
Frankly I'm disspointed that Gore isn't running. I'd support Feingold in the blink of an eye, allthough McCain might be a good compromise. Considering that Hillary has turned to the right recently in a blatant attempt to become more appealing to conservatives (and that she'll probably swing back to her socially progressive self again once in office) I think she might do a pretty good job as president and I think that most anti-Hillary club members are seriously understimating the female vote across the nation. She might just pull it off.
Canada6
12-12-2005, 04:44
dammit, I already explained this. I mean modern american liberalism, which is leftist.
Read on before you criticize!!!:mp5:
:eek: ... See there you go... if Modern Liberalism aka Social Liberalism is considered to be leftist in the USA... considering that Modern Liberalism aka Social Liberalism is the exact centre in most of the remaining parts of the globe... Does this make the US right-wing fascist or corporatist-conservative?
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 04:47
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.

Hmmm what was that Franklin said?

Those that would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither


What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer.


Hey look people; It's Senator Joe McCarthy! Joe they said you were dead.

it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah".


Too bad the terrorists would kill the "evil" liberals as well.


The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY.

Yea toturtue is too kind. We should just eliminate all Muslims!


They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.

And you are no better then they are....


America needs to step up, close its borders, and up
defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.

Why stop there. Why not round up everybody we don't like and put them in camps like we did the Japanese?

God I hope you are kidding.

Then again, you sound like one of my redneck relatives. Where you from?
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:48
[QUOTE=Canada6]Considering that I'm canadian, McCain and Hillary are probably both conservatives to me. [QUOTE]

I think thats the main issue. Canadians tend to think that the government must define (for lack of a better word) the economy. they tend to see american liberals (sorry, "leftist" ;) ) as conservatives. While canada was founded by (correct me if im wrong) people that today would be considered socialists, USA was founded by angry old libertarians.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:50
:eek: ... See there you go... if Modern Liberalism aka Social Liberalism is considered to be leftist in the USA... considering that Modern Liberalism aka Social Liberalism is the exact centre in most of the remaining parts of the globe... Does this make the US right-wing fascist or corporatist-conservative?
okay, heres my view on the whole thing: Liberals are progressivists, while conservatives want the world to stay the way it is.
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 04:51
USA was founded by angry old libertarians.

Nah Libertarianism is a new thing. For some reason they are desperate to claim ownership of the founders. I guess to legitimise their efforts.

Don't know......
Canada6
12-12-2005, 04:53
Considering that I'm canadian, McCain and Hillary are probably both conservatives to me.

I think thats the main issue. Canadians tend to think that the government must define (for lack of a better word) itself. they tend to see american liberals (sorry, "leftist" ;) ) as conservatives. While canada was founded by (correct me if im wrong) people that today would be considered socialists, USA was founded by angry old libertarians.
Not quite. American Liberals such as Feingold or Clinton would be Centrist Liberals in Canada.

Most Democrats however would be best fitted as socially progressive conservatives in Canada. (aka Red Tories).
The majority of Republicans quite frankly would probably be off the canadian scale to the right.

Canada was founded not by socialist but by british loyalists. Our first prime ministers were normally christian - conservatives but after a while the liberal party became canada's natural governing party, and has been for over a century. Social progressivism is almost standard in every political party from left to right in Canada.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:54
Nah Libertarianism is a new thing. For some reason they are desperate to claim ownership of the founders. I guess to legitimise their efforts.

Don't know......

well, their damn near impossible to define by todays standards (the founders, that is.) but I must say that if you had to do it, you would have to call them terrorists, then libertarians. they wanted the government to be as small and decentralized as posible...
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 04:59
Not quite. American Liberals such as Feingold or Clinton would be Centrist Liberals in Canada.

Most Democrats however would be best fitted as socially progressive conservatives in Canada. (aka Red Tories).
The majority of Republicans quite frankly would probably be off the canadian scale to the right.

Canada was founded not by socialist but by british loyalists. Our first prime ministers were normally christian - conservatives but after a while the liberal party became canada's natural governing party, and has been for over a century. Social progressivism is almost standard in every political party from left to right in Canada.
well, most people consider Clinton to be a moderate leftist. As for social progressivism, well, thats where canada becomes americas superior. While most Progressive ideas seem common sense in canada, they are somehow sinful according to our religious right (Gay marrage, for example). I like your political system more. wanna trade governments? ill give you a candy bar... :)

Edit: but, seriously speaking, The Religious right seems to be an international phenom. besides the middle east, america is where religion has more power than anywhere else in the world.
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 04:59
well, their damn near impossible to define by todays standards (the founders, that is.) but I must say that if you had to do it, you would have to call them terrorists, then libertarians. they wanted the government to be as small and decentralized as posible...

Ahh but in their day it was drastically different then by todays standards.

Could we have grown to our stature with a tiny goverment? I am not so sure.

I would even venture there would not have been a USA if that philosophy stayed in place......
The South Islands
12-12-2005, 05:03
Ahh but in their day it was drastically different then by todays standards.

Could we have grown to our stature with a tiny goverment? I am not so sure.

I would even venture there would not have been a USA if that philosophy stayed in place......

I would say that the US would be more like a confederation.
Canada6
12-12-2005, 05:04
well, most people consider Clinton to be a moderate leftist. As for social progressivism, well, thats where canada becomes americas superior. While most Progressive ideas seem common sense in canada, they are somehow sinful according to our religious right (Gay marrage, for example). I like your political system more. wanna trade governments? ill give you a candy bar... :)
I love chocolate but I'm not sure that's gonna cut it. :D

I live in Portugal btw. Over here it's even more curious. There is no centre at all.

You're either communist, social-democrat, conservative right or christian-conservative.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:10
I would say that the US would be more like a confederation.
with a smaller government, it is likely that we would not have involved ourselves in europe in WWII. Japan was inevitable, as was WWI when Germany tried to convince mexico to invade the US. there would likely have been less international involvement on our part, and the cold war may have been lost (considering that, without our involvement, russia may have conquered europe.) It would all come down to what you believe would have happened in WWII. at least, thats my 2 cents...:)
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:14
I love chocolate but I'm not sure that's gonna cut it. :D

I live in Portugal btw. Over here it's even more curious. There is no centre at all.

You're either communist, social-democrat, conservative right or christian-conservative.
*slides candy bart across the table* you sure about that?

as an heir to the cold war, I cant imagine a world where a communist party has legitimate power. (and sorry for assuming your canadian. I just assumed that with a name like that....)
Canada6
12-12-2005, 05:19
*slides candy bart across the table* you sure about that?

as an heir to the cold war, I cant imagine a world where a communist party has legitimate power. (and sorry for assuming your canadian. I just assumed that with a name like that....)
You didn't assume at all. I told you I was canadian, and the truth is I am. I just currently reside in Portugal.

The two small communist parties combined have about 12% to 14% of the votes/seats in parlament. The christian democrats on the far right have about 3 or 4. The two main parties are the social democrats (currently with a majority government of about 53%) and the conservatives. (30 something %).

The power has balanced back and forth between the social democrats and the conservatives since democracy was installed in 1974.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:25
You didn't assume at all. I told you I was canadian, and the truth is I am. I just currently reside in Portugal.

The two small communist parties combined have about 12% to 14% of the votes/seats in parlament. The christian democrats on the far right have about 3 or 4. The two main parties are the social democrats (currently with a majority government of about 53%) and the conservatives. (30 something %).

The power has balanced back and forth between the social democrats and the conservatives since democracy was installed in 1974.

Ive noticed that the Spainish government looks kind of like the Prtugese one (I have done some research here, wrote a paper on spain.) They have socialists and extreme-conservatives, with a few left over Franco supporters.
Also, id like to point out how far off the original topic weve gone. it started with me venting about my history teacher, and now were talking about canada and portugal. not that im complaining, I just didnt expect this to happen....:p
St Toph
12-12-2005, 05:26
gee our teacher just makes us feel dumb if we say something dumb and doesnt forget about it. like if you say "the patriots were running low on stuff in the american revolution" he says" well i really dont think they had oreos back then and if the did whatd they do to the chocolate hard cookie part?
Lovely Boys
12-12-2005, 05:34
I think both of you, quite frankly are nuts; your teacher is a conspiracy nut looking for conspiracies where the are none, and claiming that the 'powers that be' have a grand scheme against the 'down trodden masses' - which is no better than your naive belief in what the media or state force feed you on a regular basis.

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism; attacking Iraq is the equivilant of pissing into an ocean thinking that'll clean up the pollution on the other side of the world.
Canada6
12-12-2005, 05:35
Off topics are natural. Has Godwin's law kicked in yet?
Lovely Boys
12-12-2005, 05:40
Off topics are natural. Has Godwin's law kicked in yet?

Not yet, time will tell whether it does occur.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:42
Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism; attacking Iraq is the equivilant of pissing into an ocean thinking that'll clean up the pollution on the other side of the world.
wh...What? First, id like to point out (again, read the whole thread before involving yourself) that I dont like the american government.

The war in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism originally, but it has evolved into that. Al-Quidas presence in the US has shrunk since the war began, and has grown vastly abroad. In fact, most insurgence in iraq are Al-quida backed and from foriegn middle-eastern countries.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:44
Not yet, time will tell whether it does occur.
well, I kind of started with fascism at the top of the agenda, so you could argue that it already happened...:)
Canada6
12-12-2005, 05:45
Al-Quidas presence in the US has shrunk since the war began, and has grown vastly abroad.It has grown vastly abroad but we can't exactly be sure that they've shrunk in the US. The tragedy of the whole thing is that you'll never know until it's too late.
Crowltonia Empire
12-12-2005, 05:47
how bout this, america isnt fascist, communist, or any of the other freaking types of governments you guys threw out there..lets create a new one..Americanism...im not exactly a huge politics buff, but i find it rather interesting, and i thought this was a cool topic..you you guys can make up the witty remarks that would make a government "Americanist"
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 05:48
It has grown vastly abroad but we can't exactly be sure that they've shrunk in the US. The tragedy of the whole thing is that you'll never know until it's too late.
well according to the American Government (who may just be trying to make us feel good) the amount of american terrorist chatter has gone down. and judging from the attacks on britain and spain, and the absence of attacks in america, they have shifted focus to our allies.
Mirkana
12-12-2005, 06:02
I am shocked that people think that the slow response to Katrina was a result of Bush being racist. If he did intend a slow response, why didn't he restrict the Coast Guard? The Coast Guard basically freelanced through New Orleans without a command structure, and they were very effective with their resources.

The head of FEMA was incompetent, plain and simple. In Mirkana, he would have been executed.
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 06:16
I am shocked that people think that the slow response to Katrina was a result of Bush being racist. If he did intend a slow response, why didn't he restrict the Coast Guard? The Coast Guard basically freelanced through New Orleans without a command structure, and they were very effective with their resources.

The head of FEMA was incompetent, plain and simple. In Mirkana, he would have been executed.
and in the holy empire of Personal Glory, he would have been sacrificed to the heathen gods of old. But unfortunately, I dont get a say. :p
The Black Forrest
12-12-2005, 06:50
Off topics are natural. Has Godwin's law kicked in yet?

If you follow the traditional version, no.

If you follow the modified one, you just activated it. ;)
Marrakech II
12-12-2005, 07:24
There is a soft-fascism in the liberal agenda. Opposing views on any grounds marks you as a Nazi, while their views are sensible and rational...

Conservatives went into politics, liberals went into teaching...

You're not crazy. He's just a rabid fascist.

Lol, nice way to sum that one up. ;)
Falhaar2
12-12-2005, 11:16
Damn it, what happened to all the crazy red-necked Right Wingers? What's with all this "being sensible and not immediately threatening to shoot people" crap?! I demand an answer!
Personal Glory
12-12-2005, 18:45
Damn it, what happened to all the crazy red-necked Right Wingers? What's with all this "being sensible and not immediately threatening to shoot people" crap?! I demand an answer!
They moved to Washington....
Moantha
13-12-2005, 01:47
Okayy.... I'm no goin to slowly edge back on topic. Nobody beat me please.

My social studies textbook defines fascisim as rooted in millitarism (apparently 75% of our budget goes to millitary) extreme nationalism (since saying the pledge in school is officialy voluntary I guess that ones not) and blind loyalty to the state (I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that one.)

Wikipedia, on the other hand says the definition varies from only Mussuloni's Italy (did I spell that right?) to any and all authoritarian states, largely depending on who you ask.

Therefore I answer your original question with the following completely off topic advice.

In cra-Z-ness there is solace.
Personal Glory
13-12-2005, 08:25
Okayy.... I'm no goin to slowly edge back on topic. Nobody beat me please.

My social studies textbook defines fascisim as rooted in millitarism (apparently 75% of our budget goes to millitary) extreme nationalism (since saying the pledge in school is officialy voluntary I guess that ones not) and blind loyalty to the state (I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that one.)

Wikipedia, on the other hand says the definition varies from only Mussuloni's Italy (did I spell that right?) to any and all authoritarian states, largely depending on who you ask.

Therefore I answer your original question with the following completely off topic advice.

In cra-Z-ness there is solace.
Id check that 75% number. Last I checked, we spent $370.7 billion a year on defense(http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military), and I think our spending budget on the whole is in the trillions. And because we have democracy in america, and Mussolini (I think THATS right;) ) defined fascism as a dictatorship, were in the clear.
Morvonia
13-12-2005, 08:32
that line about oil is false..if he knew anything it was that america placed more sanctions on iraq oil then any other country. i cant believe that everyone believed all that this moron-with-a-degree had to say....jeez.


what level in school you at?
Continuing Revolution
13-12-2005, 09:12
Since we're talking about Mussolini, how about a quotation from an encyclopedia article in a 1939 Italian encyclopedia (translated of course): "a doctrine which is rounded upon this harmful postulate of peace is hostile to fascism. And thus hostile to the spirit of fascism are all the international leagues and societies". Another interesting quotation is this: "above all fascism denies that class war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society." One more: "Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society." Now I could invent a huge theory in connection with these quotations about the US acting without the help of the UN in Iraq, or about the fierce anti-communism of American foreign policy in the Cold War, or about Bush's win in the 2000 election being against the will of the popular vote (yes, I know about the electoral college so don't bother educating me) but I will not go into this theory. The definition of fascism has changed too much since 1939. The term is thrown around too much in my opinion. I think that it is safe to say that the US has become noticably more like a totalitarian state in the past few years. Does this mean that it will be that way forever? No. Does this mean that this is ok? No. My point is, and forgive me for not reading all 8 pages of this thread, that when a teacher gets up and goes on a one-sided rant about America being a repressive police state and then someone fires back at him that it is the greatest and most free country to grace the world with its presence, nothing gets done. Dividing the country up like this is ridiculous in my opinion. Instead of using out-dated and over-used terms like fascism and then responding with jokes about unicorn fucking, people need to realize that there is some common ground and that extremist viewpoints don't help anyone.
Whallop
13-12-2005, 12:32
An article (by Dr. Lawrence Britt) I read gave 7 warning signs and 14 points which would define a fascist country.
I'm going to be brief about this, just a short of the warning sign or point and a short example.
Warning signs:

Instability of capitalist relationships or markets - Check.
declassed social elements - Check
stripping of rights and wealth focused upon a specific segment of the population- Check, middle class people having to work 3 jobs per household to keep their lifestyle, etc.
Discontent, haves VS have nots - check.
Hate of a specific group defined by race, origin, theology or association. - Check
Greed for resources in possesion of the group the hate is directed at- Check
Organized Propaganda - Check

So all the warning signs are in place. Now to see if all the points a country needs to follow are in place for it to be called fascist.

the 14 points for fascism:

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Check, the US seems to be the destined country and has a special mission to free the rest of the world, my country right or wrong, etc.
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Check just look around what has been happening since 9/11
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - Check, since 9/11
Supremacy of the Military - Uncertain even though the military budget is in total (if you add in things hidden in other departments) over 1/3 of the total costs of running the US government
Rampant Sexism - Uncertain to not, also depends on how sexism is defined.
Controlled Mass Media - Check only the pro government line has been toed since 9/11
Obsession with National Security - Check, don't think I need to explain that one
Religion and Government are Intertwined - Check, although disguised the highest ranking people in the goverment are enforcing Christianity in their co-workers
Corporate Power is Protected - Check, just look at the latest laws preventing lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers that use mercury as preservative
Labor Power is Suppressed -uncertain to not. What is happening here can also be seen as government trying to reduce costs by allowing non unionized companies to bid on contracts.
Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Partially. Only the intellectuals at the moment. if the research doesn't fit the government agenda try to get the researchers censured and continue to shop around until you find someone willing to support what you want.
Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Check, mandatory punishments, etc.
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Check, see the problems with Delay, the no bid contracts for the company Cheney was CEO of, etc.
Fraudulent Elections - Check, but both sides are guilty of this seems that the republicans were just a tad better at the game this time, redistricting of house seats so that less and less have a chance at changing, blurring of the difference of being democrat or republican.

3 points ( 4, 5, 10) on uncertain one (5) of which partially depends on a definiton, 1 on partial (11)
Might be close but that means it's not a fascist state yet.
That is my interpretation. It could that people have a different intepretation on all the points which can bring it to either closer to being fascist or remove it from that point.

Also it is possible to be fascist and have a representative republic government (WWII era Italy and Germany were fascist dictatorships). Basically fascism only indicates how a specific government type does it daily job.

grammar & spelling fixes
Mariehamn
13-12-2005, 12:35
About lists....
Umberto Eco has a good, short list, too at how to define a Facist state. Post it tomorrow, its at home!

*writes on stickpad, and slaps it against forehead*
Free Soviets
13-12-2005, 17:54
one of the things seperating american mainstream psuedo-fascism from the fascism of old is the lack of organized gangs/paramilitary groups used to attack 'enemies of the people'. but they seem to be working on it - they are mainstreaming the more openly fascist groups that already had those structures in place and repeatedly calling (or apologizing) for organized campaigns of violence.

another interesting thing about the mainstream pseudo-fascism in the u.s. is that it gained power by hiding it's revolutionary aims. they are open about their desire to rid the state of the 'rot' of liberals and such, but they are rarely explicit about their rejection of enlightenment values - even as they use their power to undermine them, they claim to be upholding and restoring them.
Viramar
13-12-2005, 18:55
The united states is arguably one of the most unique countries in the world in some respects. Certainly, it is not like Italy or Germany.One thing that sets it apart is its democratic tradition.

However, this is rooted in procedure only, from what I have been able to observe. Elections every four years, only two terms to a president, one man, one vote, etc. And, with the exception of the 2000 election (if that had happened in Latin America, there would have been rioting in the streets, and rightly so), these have been more or less held to. Although many Americans are in favour of these arrangements, they assume that, if the procedure is present, then the system is democratic, and therefore just.

But there is gerrymandering to consider, and this strange "electoral college" system (although, Canada has a few strange things going for it as well). And how the successful candidate will make sure that he has more campaign funds than his opponent. Corporate interests have always played a role in politics in any country, and influence will always be skewed in their direction by virtue of the fact that money means interest. And even though there is no state press, many directors of high-level media outlets have political connections, and they have all but rooted out locally owned channels, so the amount of alternative media available to Americans is very low, so they are unlikely to be exposed to the variety of viewpoints and information that make for a vibrant political culture.

The point which I am clumsily trying to make is the following: You can have fascism without direct dictatorship in America. All you have to do is ensure that the people hold a near religious belief that it could never happen here. That way, when there is a lapse, like an election theft or a Waco, it will be presented as a regrettable blip, not the logical outcome of a complex, far reaching system.
Free Soviets
13-12-2005, 20:06
About lists....
Umberto Eco has a good, short list, too at how to define a Facist state. Post it tomorrow, its at home!

*writes on stickpad, and slaps it against forehead*


i'm going to beat you too it:
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html



Eternal Fascism:
Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt

By Umberto Eco

In spite of some fuzziness regarding the difference between various historical forms of fascism, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

* * *

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.

Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counterrevolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but is was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of the faiths indulgently accepted by the Roman pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages -- in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little-known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, "the combination of different forms of belief or practice;" such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and although they seem to say different or incompatible things, they all are nevertheless alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.

Both Fascists and Nazis worshipped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon blood and earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake.

Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Hermann Goering's fondness for a phrase from a Hanns Johst play ("When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," "effete snobs," and "universities are nests of reds." The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism.

In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity.

Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.

That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old "proletarians" are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country.

This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the United States, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson's The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.

When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.

Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such "final solutions" implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.

Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people in the world, the members or the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero.

In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Spanish Falangists was Viva la Muerte ("Long Live Death!"). In nonfascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters.

This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons -- doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say.

In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.

Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.

Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

* * *

Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easier for us if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances — every day, in every part of the world. Franklin Roosevelt's words of November 4, 1938, are worth recalling: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land." Freedom and liberation are an unending task.
Deep Kimchi
13-12-2005, 20:42
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.

Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

So, when people who are not Republicans in the US foist their new terms on us, such as African-American, or Ebonics, or calls their enemies "neocons" then they are engaging in Newspeak and are fascists?

Oh, I forgot! It's not Fascism if Democrats do it!

(actually I think it's an incredible stretch to call either fascism, which today is a misused term meaning "everything I hate rolled into one").

No one, for example, has direct government control of the media or major industries. It's more the other way around.
Liskeinland
13-12-2005, 20:46
I think both Liberals and Conservatives are full of shiite! Shi'ite? As in the Muslim sect?
Kephalia
13-12-2005, 20:58
theres two forms of liberalism: modern liberalism (democrats) and classic liberalism (libertarians). at least, from what I know....

and thanks for the links, Ill look into those too

Don't forget International Liberalism. Confusing it is.
Free Soviets
13-12-2005, 20:58
So, when people who are not Republicans in the US foist their new terms on us, such as African-American, or Ebonics, or calls their enemies "neocons" then they are engaging in Newspeak and are fascists?

how are those examples of "impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning"? if anything, they actually increase the instruments for complex and critical reasoning by providing additional ways to make distinctions. and as eco writes, "to distinguish is a sign of modernism."
Deep Kimchi
13-12-2005, 21:02
how are those examples of "impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning"? if anything, they actually increase the instruments for complex and critical reasoning by providing additional ways to make distinctions. and as eco writes, "to distinguish is a sign of modernism."
"Neocons" is a pejorative term, invented specifically for that purpose, to diminish the reputation of people who are labeled in that way.

It also has an elementary syntax, and leaves out the majority of the words initially used to compose it.

Sounds like Newspeak to me.
Kefren
13-12-2005, 21:03
you've touched on a very important point. your teacher is an idiot in plain english. One, because he is wrong, and two for bringing his back assed, biased political views into the classroom. Fascism should be the law of the land, for it is the only way to ensure the survival of this great nation in these trying times.
What should be outlawed, are the terrorist supporting, tree-hugging, leftist communists. i have my own views on the ways they should suffer. it is people like ur teacher that gives the terrorists all the morale they need to continue with "the will of Allah". The media is so goddamn liberal that they have the audacity to air pictures of American soldiers torturing the ENEMY. They are the enemy, we torture enemies, we don't give them prayer mats or treat them as humans. because they are not people, they are animals, less than humans. I would treat my dog better than any of those filth-bags.
America needs to step up, close its borders, and up defense spending. It's time to start invading people and nuking the hell out of whole regions of the earth. We could start by assasinating those who oppose us and sending the UN and all of the nations "delegates", who are really spies, to FRANCE.


I truly hope you were being sarcastic here....
Voxio
14-12-2005, 03:36
I understand you do not believe these things, but I will reply to them for those that do believe what your teacher said.


the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is. He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

Yes, however, the United States does not manipulate the Economy to the same extent as the Fascists or for the same reasons. In Fascism it is a way of helping the state as a whole where the U.S. government lets it support indeviduals.

I would also point out that war for the benifit of the economy and racism were not part of Fascist prinicple. Mussolini [The closest to a true Fascist] had several racial laws, but he never wanted to enforce them and actually prevented Nazi Germany from killing many Jews and such "lower" races.

He then explained that no-bid contracts repeatedly given to Haliburton is an example of unnecessary manipulation of the economy for the benefit of the state. Obvious fascism :rolleyes:
It's actually for the benifit of the indevidual rather than the state. If it were Fascism the government would be directly rebuilding Iraq.

He went on to describe the war in Iraq not as the liberation of a country oppresed by an insane despot or an attempt to get terrorism out of America, but as the imperial conquest of an oil-rich nation. Also, it supposedly gave haliburton, GE (owner of some of the above mentioned "propaganda machines"), and HP reason to build bombs like crazy and make money off of the war.
Lol, imperialism. Not a Fascist policy, nor an American one. If we were imperialists we'd be taking their oil and forcing our products on them. If you notice, we still buy our oil and they have their own crappy products [based on ours] flooding their markets.

Lastly, he moved on to racism. In his twisted little mind, the slow response to hurricane Katrina was an attempt to wipe out an entire population of black liberals (im sure Bush wanted them to drown like rats). This is not to mention the growing racism in our population toward hispanic and middle-eastern imigrants (more fascism).
Your teacher doesn't know the difference between Fascism and Nazism. It's okay for most people, but he's a history teacher...he should know.

Also, isnt a fascism a dictatorship, fueled by hatred and bloodlust?
Yes and no. Fascism came into power as Dictatorships with a severe hatred of Communism and immigration. However, many of the Fascist parties around the western world base their ideals on Government on the writings of Oswald Mosely and his system of Occupational Franchise which does allow for a larger ammount of Democracy. Mussolini also intended to create a similar system, but the Capitalist would not support such a policy, so he compromised...[look how well that turned out too.]

As for the war in Iraq, it is hard to know exactly what our motives are. I have a feeling that the objective was to get terrorists out of america. Think about it: an islamic nation is invaded, one with a general lack of islamic terrorists. If your Osama Bin-Laden, are you going to waste time sneeking a bomb into America, or are you going to run across the border to Iraq and start shooting americans there? this is the real logic, in my opinion, behind the Iraq war.
I should point out that most American Fascists are against the Iraq war. We prefere to keep our soldiers home where they can protect us. So if your teacher is trying to say that makes our government Fascist, he is way off.

dont fascist economics call for the "corporation," not the kind WE have in america, but a state run economy devoid of competion?
A corporation in Fascism is nothing like todays modern meaning.

Corporatism is the idea that all the workers of a certain type of industry would be in a giant country-wide union. These workers would elect leaders who would serve as a legislative branch of the government.

If you would like some extra information on the basic princaples you can send me a TG on this account.

Hope I have helped.

P.S.: From what I have seen you are not a Fascist, just a proud American Republican...and yes, there is a big difference between the two.
GhostEmperor
14-12-2005, 04:24
Warning: the following will disturb, annoy, amuse or confuse you. Brace yourself.
_________________________________________________________________

the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is. He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

etc...etc...etc...

Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right? AM I INSANE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


PS: excuse my spelling, Im just pissed off.

Your teacher is right. In fact, many of the same symptoms pre-WWII Nazi Germany are present right here right now. If you think that the government is being all fair and nice, I think you need to open your eyes. The conservatives here are the same thing as conservatives there; the only differences are really their religions and how big their guns are. And don't even get me started on the Democrats; they're just as fascist as the conservatives. They do a pretty good job of hiding it. Anyway, I would suggest actually looking up this stuff... at this point, our government has commited crimes that are like Watergate times 1000. It's a shame that our entire political spectrum in America is shifting right; otherwise, we might actually have rational people.
The Atlantian islands
14-12-2005, 04:28
Warning: the following will disturb, annoy, amuse or confuse you. Brace yourself.
_________________________________________________________________

the other day I was sitting in my history class, when my teacher went on some random tangent about how fascist america is. He explained that there were four things required to make a country fascist: Propoganda, economic manipulation by the state for the benefit of the state, war for the benefit of the economy, and racism for the benefit of the state.

He argued that because Fox News is owned by a conservative and because CNN, CBS, and NBC are all owned by a company that (among other things) makes weapons, that these networks will report only on the issues they want to, and only from their point of view. In other words, they will do what they can to make you love the state.

He then explained that no-bid contracts repeatedly given to Haliburton is an example of unnecessary manipulation of the economy for the benefit of the state. Obvious fascism :rolleyes:

He went on to describe the war in Iraq not as the liberation of a country oppresed by an insane despot or an attempt to get terrorism out of America, but as the imperial conquest of an oil-rich nation. Also, it supposedly gave haliburton, GE (owner of some of the above mentioned "propaganda machines"), and HP reason to build bombs like crazy and make money off of the war.

Lastly, he moved on to racism. In his twisted little mind, the slow response to hurricane Katrina was an attempt to wipe out an entire population of black liberals (im sure Bush wanted them to drown like rats). This is not to mention the growing racism in our population toward hispanic and middle-eastern imigrants (more fascism).

Firstly, id like to remind you that this is all happening in a HISTORY class rom. instead of telling his students about the Cold War, he was feeding them his political views.

Second of all, I was suprised by how easily my classmates accepted this as the truth. No one opposed him and after class everone seemed happy to accept the fact that their class had been hijacked by a conspiracy theorist.

By the time he was done with his lecture, I was mad. I decided to argue with him. First, I explained that just because the owner of a news station may sympathize with certain sides of an issue, does not mean she won't show both sides of an issue. In doing so, they would risked being labeled a bias...well, propaganda machine. This would not be profitable, and profit is what drives all corporations.

Thought it is true that certain corporations have the support of the government, this is common amongst any democratic society. Canada has the support of the lumber industry, South Korea has the support of the Tecnology industry. Are they all fascist? are you really implying that their is a fascist conspiracy afoot, led by billionares seeking world domination?

as for the racism, well, I laughed when he started trying to explain this. It is true that their is latent racism in America. To deny this would be ignorant. But comparing inneficiency on the part of FEMA to the holocaust? Comparing the general mistrust of people with turbans to the rape of Nanjing? If anything, this is similar to what happens when any nation is threatened by an enemy from overseas. Look at the Mcarthy era. Look at the the british in the 1970's. They passed a law similar to the Patriot act, and they wrongfully imprisoned Irish natives (whats the name of that irish family that had that movie made about them?) Im not saying this is right. But is it Fascism?!?!?!?

As for the war in Iraq, it is hard to know exactly what our motives are. I have a feeling that the objective was to get terrorists out of america. Think about it: an islamic nation is invaded, one with a general lack of islamic terrorists. If your Osama Bin-Laden, are you going to waste time sneeking a bomb into America, or are you going to run across the border to Iraq and start shooting americans there? this is the real logic, in my opinion, behind the Iraq war.

He also claimed that Iraq was no more oppresive under Saddam than America is under Bush. I burst out laughing when he said this. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: He compared Saddams systematic rape of women who show too much face to the west's general pressure towards women to get breast implants.(WTF!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?!):rolleyes:

Also, isnt a fascism a dictatorship, fueled by hatred and bloodlust? dont fascist economics call for the "corporation," not the kind WE have in america, but a state run economy devoid of competion? in the end, (in a way that would make Bill O'riely proud) I told him to stop dropping acid and f**king unicorns, and to come live in the real world, and he sent me to the principal. The principal scolded the teacher for going on his rant, and I felt happy. The Principal pointed out that such rants during school hours, could result in the school losing acredidation, and thus the right to teach. But this did not undo the damage done to my oh-so-easily manipulated classmates. While I realized how wrong this man is, the rest of my class has been brainwashed.

Bottom line: Am I a fascist? is Bush a fascist? Is my teacher right? AM I INSANE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


PS: excuse my spelling, Im just pissed off.

Your teaching is just another member of the looney left, like my teacher, like my freinds teacher, like my other friends professor....oh wait I'm seeing a pattern here.....Damn libs, they're taking over I tell ya.
The Atlantian islands
14-12-2005, 04:31
Your teacher is right. In fact, many of the same symptoms pre-WWII Nazi Germany are present right here right now. If you think that the government is being all fair and nice, I think you need to open your eyes. The conservatives here are the same thing as conservatives there; the only differences are really their religions and how big their guns are. And don't even get me started on the Democrats; they're just as fascist as the conservatives. They do a pretty good job of hiding it. Anyway, I would suggest actually looking up this stuff... at this point, our government has commited crimes that are like Watergate times 1000. It's a shame that our entire political spectrum in America is shifting right; otherwise, we might actually have rational people.

Dont listen to this guy...Hes an idiot whos sold his soul to John Kerry who is now chanelling his spirit through this guy and typing what we have just received on our thread.

Heed my warning.....DO NOT listen to this guy.
Free Soviets
14-12-2005, 05:57
"Neocons" is a pejorative term, invented specifically for that purpose, to diminish the reputation of people who are labeled in that way.

to me it looks more like a natural shortening of a term. who was the first person to shorten neoconservative to neocon?

and even in short form, it's useful. it allows distinctions between the various factions of the rightwing coalition - neocons, paleos, libbies, fascists, theocrats, etc.
Inforcun
14-12-2005, 06:29
man, hating america has become so complex, cant we just hate america because its full of americans?
Accrued Constituencies
14-12-2005, 10:27
i'm going to beat you too it:
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html



Eternal Fascism:
Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.

...

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake.

Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Hermann Goering's fondness for a phrase from a Hanns Johst play ("When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," "effete snobs," and "universities are nests of reds." The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism.

In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.


As for part 2, the Futurist party merged with the Italian Fascist party in its basic form & saw itself as progressive, and this goes with Fascisms 'cult of action' in how they perceived themselves as organicly forward looking. But to say that to them "Thinking (was) a form of emasculation" is very false. The Fascist "intellectuals" who opposed 'intellectualism' made certain to show that they didn't oppose intelligence, rather only what thought was systematized outside of practice as living action, which opposed their conception of an actual dialectic. They set their theory to oppose over-"intellectualizing" society or governmental conceptions outside of actual implementation of some element to them prior. This kind of intellectualism was believed to have given rise to "unworkable" communism and egalitarian forms of socialism. It was by this manner that they opposed "intellectuals" who simply laid out ideas for the organizing of abstract concepts, divorced from reality. They didn't oppose an intellectual class within the framework of direct action, only a intellectual class defined by "intellectualism" or stagnant reflection of no true fruit. As for part 4, intellectual disagreement, the Nazi system of gauleiters & its otherwise administrative bi-cameral federalism was built and flourished upon disagreement, simply purposely unresolved disagreement, even to the point of perpetually unresolved policy and overlapping/confused chain of command and duties with continually opposing interests that were thus governmentally abetted, which is more probably a purer dialectical situation than was had in soviet Russia.
Mariehamn
14-12-2005, 10:58
i'm going to beat you too it:
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

We'll, looks like I'll have to do something else then. :p
*does it*

People here should find this of interest. It took me 80 minutes to type up, so it better be as think enducing for everyone else as it was for me!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459177