NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.

I discourage bashing of any kind. This thread is not meant to set the stage for a debate. I would simply like to learn more about why people choose the spiritual/religious beliefs they have even if it is to believe in nothing at all.

I believe in rock and roll,
that music can save your mortal soul,
and can you teach me how to dance reeal sloow:p !

I waste my time on the Internet, not some spiritual mumbojumbo.

I don't believe in fame, I believe in music.
I don't believe in money, I believe in the power of love.
I know I got a brain and I know how to use it.
I don't want no one to stick his finger in my ass.

You think you put your best foot forward
But it is moved by someone else.
In blind belief you follow every path that says:
I lead you to a universe of fortune, fame and luck.

Do you really wanna be - rich and famous, rich and famous.
Do you really wanna be - rich and famous now.

I don't believe in Rock 'n' Roll illusions.
I don't believe that what they say must always be the truth.
I don't believe in good guys against bad guys.
I just might as well say I believe in Santa Claus.

Mr. Big shot wat is your game
Mr. Big shot what is your final aim.
Now you wonder who is to blame.
Mr. Big shot what is your final aim in life.

Rich and famous, house with two hours, big jacuzzi, car with TV.
Private airplane, furs and diamonds, seafood cocktails-
CRAP AND BULLSHIT!

Personally, I've run into that wall of faith versus truth that gives us young secular humanists so much trouble. From an outsider perspective I just can't reconcile all the contradictions that most religions present, but at the same time, viewing the world from a completely logical and non-spiritual perspective leaves things bleak and depressing. Sometimes I just wish there was a faucet in me so that I could turn faith on and off whenever I wanted.

One reasonable change that I do want to make though concerns other people's faith not mine. Whenever I meet a full-blown believer I approach them with questions (but on some level I know I'm asking just the things I think will undermine their faith not strengthen mine). I want this to stop and I want to try and be more tolerant of others who are more comfortable in their world view.

I believe that Grainne Ni Malley is very hot.

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?
It doesn't exist.

Personally, I've run into that wall of faith versus truth that gives us young secular humanists so much trouble. From an outsider perspective I just can't reconcile all the contradictions that most religions present, but at the same time, viewing the world from a completely logical and non-spiritual perspective leaves things bleak and depressing. Sometimes I just wish there was a faucet in me so that I could turn faith on and off whenever I wanted.

One reasonable change that I do want to make though concerns other people's faith not mine. Whenever I meet a full-blown believer I approach them with questions (but on some level I know I'm asking just the things I think will undermine their faith not strengthen mine). I want this to stop and I want to try and be more tolerant of others who are more comfortable in their world view.

I understand your point of view. I have the strong desire to believe that something beyond my immediate comprehension is behind everything, but I haven't found anything that inspires me enough to agree. That is most of my reasoning behind this thread. I would like to learn more about what other people think and how their views help them.

*snip*

Yeah, man! *rocks*

I believe...in me.

I believe in people, I believe in you..and me. It is we who make the world.

But..I think that is not what you ask...what you ask is 'Who beside us you do believe in?'

My answer to that is no-one: We are, that is what we can say (in a certain context of reliability) - We are, and we should make the very best of it.

What do you believe in?

I believe in not seriously having this conversation on NS General.

I am Muslim, and you can take that how you want, but with the above in mind ...

What is your position on spirituality?

Bent over, looking slightly left, one foot in the air, and my hand on my hip.

What about your faith inspires you?

The orgies.

Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person?

What ... wasn't the orgies enough?

Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle?

It makes it very hard to get a ham sandwich and a shot of bourbon.

Does it give you hope?

Hope isn't necessary. (My only serious answer, sorry)

*snip*

Your answers made me laugh, that's fine. As for your one serious answer, why do you feel that hope is not necessary? Just trying to understand better.

I understand your point of view. I have the strong desire to believe that something beyond my immediate comprehension is behind everything, but I haven't found anything that inspires me enough to agree. That is most of my reasoning behind this thread. I would like to learn more about what other people think and how their views help them.I don't quite understand why having something beyond our comprehension makes life any easier? Is it like some sort of mental blockers that allows not to have to think about a particular subject any further and state that it just is?

I might be described as a humanist. I wouldn't know, I never read up about humanism. But, view of life centres around society. The reason for many things is based on the needs of society. Now, before I sound too socialist, I'm going to clarify with an example - We are nice towards each other as humans, because this makes society work in a better fashion. It also helps that individual, and may people do get a good feeling from doing a good deed.

There is no higher purpose that what we make for ourselves.

I'm losing my train of though, so I'll stop here.

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.

I discourage bashing of any kind. This thread is not meant to set the stage for a debate. I would simply like to learn more about why people choose the spiritual/religious beliefs they have even if it is to believe in nothing at all.

I am Atheist.
My position on spirituality is (obviously) that I don't believe in it, in that I don't believe in a 'higher life form', deities, any form of heaven/limbo/hell, nor do I believe in karma, spirits etc.
When it comes to other peoples spirituality, I try to respect it, or at least not be outright offensive about it, as long as they don't harp about it.

What inspires my faith (or, more rather, lack of it)? I have actually thought about this quiet a lot. I often wonder 'what if', however, I just can never manage to find that I believe in any of it. Sorry, bad description. I'm can't really articulte properly exactly why I feel this; I just do.
This does not really affect my lifestyle in any way: I obey the law, I try to treat people how I would want to be treated, however, as with probably most people, it is hard at times.
I never find that I am 'at loss' or anything without a faith. I find that it is much more empowering that there is no 'plan', 'fate', or 'destiny', that is telling me what I can do.
In answert to a question that some religious people sometimes ask: No, I never feel 'empty' or without purpose.
I think that was all the questions...I'll edit if I need to add something later, I guess...

Your answers made me laugh, that's fine. As for your one serious answer, why do you feel that hope is not necessary? Just trying to understand better.

Because of faith. I wish I could explain it better, but hope is what happens when you desire things to be better. In Islam, all is the will of Allah and, thus, hope is a wasted emotion. To quote the Buddha, suffering is the result of desire.

I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.

I hope that helps. :)

i beleive in myself.

I don't quite understand why having something beyond our comprehension makes life any easier? Is it like some sort of mental blockers that allows not to have to think about a particular subject any further and state that it just is?

I might be described as a humanist. I wouldn't know, I never read up about humanism. But, view of life centres around society. The reason for many things is based on the needs of society. Now, before I sound too socialist, I'm going to clarify with an example - We are nice towards each other as humans, because this makes society work in a better fashion. It also helps that individual, and may people do get a good feeling from doing a good deed.

There is no higher purpose that what we make for ourselves.

I'm losing my train of though, so I'll stop here.

Perhaps because I went to Catholic school, I am predispositioned to thinking a higher power exists. There are other reasons I struggle. While I disagree with almost everything I've ever heard come out of a catholics mouth, I have had prayers "answered".

For example, I went with a boyfriend from California to Florida on a very long and tiring motorcycle trip. Whenever it seemed like we had been on the bike for days and couldn't find a room for the night, I would pray, "Please let this next stop have a room." It so happened that every time I did this, we found a place for the night. I can't explain why this happened and as far as "who" I was praying to, I couldn't say.

I have a personally hard time thinking that once a person dies, he or she simply ceases to exist. I simply feel that there must be something more, but I can't explain why. Every time I've done a tarot card reading and predicted a pregnancy for the person I was giving the reading to, within a month or two that person would inform me she just found out she was pregnant. Again, unexplainable.

One time a neighbor hit my cat on Christmas morning. She had agreed to pay the vet bill, but when the time came we ended up in court. Because the cat had no actual "value", they won. Just to vent, I made a wax doll and melted it while thinking of the neighbor. I didn't really think much of it and I had never done enything like that before, but the next day she came by with a check for half of the vet bill. Who knows why.

Just examples of things that make me wonder.

Because of faith. I wish I could explain it better, but hope is what happens when you desire things to be better. In Islam, all is the will of Allah and, thus, hope is a wasted emotion. To quote the Buddha, suffering is the result of desire.

I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.

I hope that helps. :)That scares the crap out of me. It's akin to saying humans have no free will. Which is just something I could never accept. It's also pretty deterministic and could inspire views like "It doesn't matter what I do as Allah has will, it will be that way regardless". For instance, you could be starving: you either sit there a wait to either die or someone gives you food; or you could go out and find it yourself.

How should I interpret that quote? Desire is the cause of ones own suffering or of others? If it is of your own suffering then surely that is because you have failed in your desire, but if you were to succeed then you would happiness. And to quote Shakespeare "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all", to not experience gain and loss is not to live at all in my opinion.

What do you believe in?Individuality.What is your position on spirituality? Don't have one. I never was a fan of Clerics & Paladins. The Mask was a cool god, but I think TSR killed it.It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it.Nothing to tell.I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do.I don't believe.What about your faith inspires you?While faith in humanity is misplaced & fairly fucking aggrivating, it none the less scores big on being so damn optimistic.Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person?Personal responsibility is a great thing. Not only does it allow me to take pride in the fact that I'm responsible for being the greatest human being to ever grace this sorry chunk of rock, it also allows me to take a great deal of pleasure in blaming others for their shortcommings. Gotta love that.Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle?Even if I had one, I don't think I'd be in a position to answer. If I have another personallity & he sees this, I hope he'll let you know.Does it give you hope?Not really. Though faith in humanity is an optimistic affair, it's also a bit of a let-down. Now stop being such a sorry bunch of stupid gits.Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.Hmm.. I don't really think there's a choice involved in not believing in floaty sky people. I mean, it's not something I would ever have thought of.I discourage bashing of any kind.*smacks his dog on the head* Ahahaha! Let the bashing commence! See what I said about faith in humanity?

Because of faith. I wish I could explain it better, but hope is what happens when you desire things to be better. In Islam, all is the will of Allah and, thus, hope is a wasted emotion. To quote the Buddha, suffering is the result of desire.

I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.

I hope that helps. :)

Yes, that helped. If I am understanding it right, basically it means that everything in your life is how it should be for whatever ultimate purpose it serves and to hope for better is to ignore your path? Or am I being thick-headed? I sort of interpreted the quote from Buddha as saying that hoping only serves to set you up for disappointment.

That scares the crap out of me. It's akin to saying humans have no free will.

Humans have absolute free will, including the free will to give it up. I gave mine up. You may keep yours.


Which is just something I could never accept.

"Could never"? You can predict the future? Can I have some lotto numbers then? :D

It's also pretty deterministic and could inspire views like "It doesn't matter what I do as Allah has will, it will be that way regardless". For instance, you could be starving: you either sit there a wait to either die or someone gives you food; or you could go out and find it yourself.

Allah wants you to eat. Allah even gave rules on what to eat and when and how. Allah has been very thorough.


How should I interpret that quote? Desire is the cause of ones own suffering or of others? If it is of your own suffering then surely that is because you have failed in your desire, but if you were to succeed then you would happiness.

Unfortunately, a Buddhist will have to delve deeper into it. As I said in my initial post, I strongly believe in *not* discussing matters of spirituality on NS General. :)

And to quote Shakespeare "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all", to not experience gain and loss is not to live at all in my opinion.

Good quote and very good attitude!

I believe that the world would be a whole lot better if we shifted our focus religiously away from politics, symbology, and threatening those who disagree and focus on actually following our beliefs.

Perhaps because I went to Catholic school, I am predispositioned to thinking a higher power exists. There are other reasons I struggle. While I disagree with almost everything I've ever heard come out of a catholics mouth, I have had prayers "answered".

For example, I went with a boyfriend from California to Florida on a very long and tiring motorcycle trip. Whenever it seemed like we had been on the bike for days and couldn't find a room for the night, I would pray, "Please let this next stop have a room." It so happened that every time I did this, we found a place for the night. I can't explain why this happened and as far as "who" I was praying to, I couldn't say.

I have a personally hard time thinking that once a person dies, he or she simply ceases to exist. I simply feel that there must be something more, but I can't explain why. Every time I've done a tarot card reading and predicted a pregnancy for the person I was giving the reading to, within a month or two that person would inform me she just found out she was pregnant. Again, unexplainable.

One time a neighbor hit my cat on Christmas morning. She had agreed to pay the vet bill, but when the time came we ended up in court. Because the cat had no actual "value", they won. Just to vent, I made a wax doll and melted it while thinking of the neighbor. I didn't really think much of it and I had never done enything like that before, but the next day she came by with a check for half of the vet bill. Who knows why.

Just examples of things that make me wonder.
Damn, I know a good cartoon about prayers, but I can't find it. Basically two meek bushbabies are trying to alude a predator. One is convinced that prayer works and tells his friend to pray as well. The friend replies that prayer doesn't work and there is no god. In return the first animal replies that there are many cases of bushbabies praying to the bushbaby god and getting away safely from predators. The friend wonders out aloud, very dryily, why you never hear of the bushbabies that don't get their prayers answered. Co-incidence is the point I'm trying to put across here. For example, there is probably someone who did something similar and there was never a room availble when he/she prayed and had to sleep rough instead.

Your prediction of pregnancy could have put ideas in their mind (even unconcious), which might have made them more keen on the idea of having a child (even if they didn't keep it in the end).

Guilt can produce strange consequences. Indeed, it could be the intensity of the emotion in the court that continued to build up afterwards that caused your neighbour to cave.

Now, can you tell me all the times when you did stuff like this and nothing happened? I'm going to presume 'no', because it's not really all that memorable.

Questioning church of scotland member (we're presbyterians, if that's important!).

My religion gives me a context in which to judge morality. I kick against it - a lot - but I don't know where I'd be without it. It doesn't influence me that much on a day-to-day basis, but when it comes to making important decisions that might affect me or other people in a big way, it kicks in.

I go against a lot of my 'faith' (and others) because I know damn well how much of it came to be through social, societal, and historical influences, nothing 'divine' about it at all. But it still sometimes feels/seems that there might be a kernel of truth to it - bugs me that I won't find out till I die!

Because of faith. I wish I could explain it better, but hope is what happens when you desire things to be better. In Islam, all is the will of Allah and, thus, hope is a wasted emotion. To quote the Buddha, suffering is the result of desire.
I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.
I hope that helps. :)

That's either very beutiful or scary.
I thought Islam had free will...

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?All available evidence suggests there's nothing, but as you ask what I believe in, rather than what I can deduce from facts, I'm not sure how to explain it.

The way I think about things spiritual is a bit like a watered-down version of what I 'believe' about not walking under ladders. While I know that it's generally only really a (provable) problem walking under a ladder if there's someone at the top holding things he could accidentally drop on me (or if the ladder's feet slide on the ground and the whole kaboodle comes down on me), I will walk around any ladder, and will even (where safe/possible to do so) avoid walking under facia-length covered scaffolding that maintains a walkway beneath in case I find myself walking through the 'invisible ray of bad luck' that descends straight down from any unseen ladders hidden within the said structure.

So, sort of like that, but watered down a lot more. For all intentes and purposes I'm not spiritual, but you might be able to analyse my behaviour and find something (like the avoidance-of-scaffloding, but not noticed by myself) whereby I subconsiously and unknowingly 'hedge my bets' on something.

I certainly don't feel anything as much as the old "if you've touched something with your left hand, you have to touch it with your right hand" behavioural anomoly that I occasionaly have.


Or, taking this first question (you can extrapolate the rest from what I'm saying) from a third point-of-view, my main 'belief' is that the world I'm experieincing is Reality, and I'm not either a butterfly dreaming I'm a man, a disembidied consciousness hallucinating nor stuck in a Matrix-like illusion. (And, for the last of these, I prefer the analogy of the pre-Matrix SF story version whereby 'I' am the survivor of an interstellar ship-wreck, in stasis and being kept mentally sane by being submerged in an artificial reality that started me off as a baby, and when they come to rescue me I'll remember reality once more. I really do not want to be in a Big Brother (non-US style)-crossed with Better Than Life (Red Dwarf style) situation where I'm ultimately trying for points or prizes, 'cos I've a feeling I'm not racking up enough to survive eviction...)

Anyway. Everything else stems from the belief I'm real. All other beliefs that require extra faith are 'up in the aether', as far as I'm concerned. If there's anything to them I've got no handle on them.

Elgesh']My religion gives me a context in which to judge morality. I kick against it - a lot - but I don't know where I'd be without it. It doesn't influence me that much on a day-to-day basis, but when it comes to making important decisions that might affect me or other people in a big way, it kicks in.
No offence intended, but I have to ask; does your church define morality, in your mind?

I've seen many statements similar to yours, and even more declarations about atheists being inherently amoral & the like, so I'm seriously wondering about this.

What do you believe in?

Everything, from a certain point of view. I consider myself to be a Buddhist if that helps though.

What is your position on spirituality?

It's necessary for people to function. Even people that deny they have a spiritual side posess one, although they couldn't tell you what it consists of.

What about your faith inspires you?

I find it inspiring because it makes it possible to fufill any desires. I also understand that things also take effort and if I'm not willing to make the effort, then I probably don't really desire it.

Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person?

It puts me firmly in control of my life. If life is good, I can enjoy it and if life is not good, then I can change it.

Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle?
Yes.

Does it give you hope?
Faith is hope. If one has no hope, one makes no effort.

Earlier in this thread Keruvalia had made the quote "suffering is the result of desire". One can accept that as fact, but it doesn't dictate a course of action. It seems like there would be two options: stop having desires or fufilling them. From my experience, eliminating desires eliminates suffering, but it doesn't bring happiness. Persuing that which one desires leads to happiness.

The tough question is "What is it that one truly desires?" That's one I'm still working on.

Humans have absolute free will, including the free will to give it up. I gave mine up. You may keep yours.

"Could never"? You can predict the future? Can I have some lotto numbers then? :D

Allah wants you to eat. Allah even gave rules on what to eat and when and how. Allah has been very thorough.

Unfortunately, a Buddhist will have to delve deeper into it. As I said in my initial post, I strongly believe in *not* discussing matters of spirituality on NS General. :)

Good quote and very good attitude!I know a little of Islam, and I believe that's one of core parts of converting - surrendering your free will to Allah. Am I right? My memory is feeling a bit dodgy.

Sorry, it's just that free will is something I feel very strongly about. I believe that the exercise of choice and the ability to learn from mistakes and successes is another part of life. Otherwise, what's the point in being an individual concious being?

Very well, I'll try my best to respect that belief, but I'm in one of those middle of the night/early morning philosophical moods.

Ah, it's just clicked with the free will and submission and Allah's will. Allah suggests a path through life, which is his will, and it's your free will to follow or not. By submitting your freewill to Allah your are saying that you will always follow Allah's path. Right? :confused:

edit: Hahaha, I've just seen the irony in this statement. Boy it's late and I'm tired. >.<I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.
I hope that helps. :)

That's either very beutiful or scary.
I thought Islam had free will...

A little of both. Kind of like falling in love ... it's equally beautiful and scarey.

True and pure Islam has no free will. Islam means you've submitted yourself to the will of Allah.

edit: Hahaha, I've just seen the irony in this statement. Boy it's late and I'm tired. >.<

Hooray! Someone got it! :D

Thank you! (you're my hero right now)

What is your position on spirituality?It's necessary for people to function. Even people that deny they have a spiritual side posess one, although they couldn't tell you what it consists of.Faith is hope. If one has no hope, one makes no effort.You seem to equate hope (or perhaps aspirations) with spirituality. If that's what you mean, then obviously all people have 'a spiritual side'. But if you're talking about spirituality in the litteral sense, then I should very much like to see you back up that claim.
I have no such 'side', but plenty of hopes & dreams.

As it is, the rest of your post is pretty much what I would've answered, if I'd taken the OP serious.

Hooray! Someone got it! :D

Thank you! (you're my hero right now)I am? Woo Hoo! For how long though? c.c I suspect that no one saw it because they were too deeply embroiled in the dicussion or they were trying to be polite by not mentioning the conflict.

On the serious note, it be Allah who hopes that what you said helps, not you? Or is talking about spirituality? Poo.

Damn, I know a good cartoon about prayers, but I can't find it. Basically two meek bushbabies are trying to alude a predator. One is convinced that prayer works and tells his friend to pray as well. The friend replies that prayer doesn't work and there is no god. In return the first animal replies that there are many cases of bushbabies praying to the bushbaby god and getting away safely from predators. The friend wonders out aloud, very dryily, why you never hear of the bushbabies that don't get their prayers answered. Co-incidence is the point I'm trying to put across here. For example, there is probably someone who did something similar and there was never a room availble when he/she prayed and had to sleep rough instead.

Your prediction of pregnancy could have put ideas in their mind (even unconcious), which might have made them more keen on the idea of having a child (even if they didn't keep it in the end).

Guilt can produce strange consequences. Indeed, it could be the intensity of the emotion in the court that continued to build up afterwards that caused your neighbour to cave.

Now, can you tell me all the times when you did stuff like this and nothing happened? I'm going to presume 'no', because it's not really all that memorable.

Actually, I could come up with plenty of times where I prayed and they weren't answered. Like finding my father dead and praying as the EMTs tried to resuscitate him that they would succed, but they didn't. Or the times that I have prayed to have another child, but haven't. I feel that these things happen for a reason though.

You have a good point about the coincidence of course. I would chalk it up to coincidence especially on the last instance and I think that you are probably right about the guilt factor. The other two stretch my imagination mostly because they were consistent. Evey time I asked for a room (I tested this every night on the four day trip after the first night), I got one on the very next stop. Every time the cards gave a "pregnancy" reading, it was accurate. Plenty of people try to have babies without success. Those are rather strong "coincidences" in my opinion. Could happen, I suppose.

I know a little of Islam, and I believe that's one of core parts of converting - surrendering your free will to Allah. Am I right? My memory is feeling a bit dodgy.

Yes, that is correct. Islam is the complete submission to the will of Allah. It means I look to Allah's instructions on what I "should do" before I ask myself what I "want to do".

Sorry, it's just that free will is something I feel very strongly about. I believe that the exercise of choice and the ability to learn from mistakes and successes is another part of life. Otherwise, what's the point in being an individual concious being?

Free will is something I feel strongly about, too. All humans have free will. It was Allah's greatest gift to mankind. It is something that was given to no other creature in creation - not animals nor angels got it. Only man has it. Part of that free will, though, must be the will to give up free will and just follow Allah's instructions. It's like the kashrut laws. My children often ask me why I do not eat meat with dairy (no cheeseburgers, etc) and I tell them it's because God said not to do so and that I believe God has the final say-so in such things. I also, however, at the same time tell them that that's a decision that they will make when the time is right. I don't force my children to keep kosher (though I don't buy pork, so they don't eat it unless they choose to have a hot dog at school lunch), but I also don't hold out hope that they'd keep my decisions. They must choose for themselves when the time is right.

Very well, I'll try my best to respect that belief, but I'm in one of those middle of the night/early morning philosophical moods.

Well, please keep trying. I do, after all, 100% respect your beliefs. I don't think you any less for not giving up your will and will never think of you as less. You and I have simply made a different choice in life.

As for that night/early morhing philosophical moods, I know that all too well. :D

Ah, it's just clicked with the free will and submission and Allah's will. Allah suggests a path through life, which is his will, and it's your free will to follow or not. By submitting your freewill to Allah your are saying that you will always follow Allah's path. Right? :confused:

Disco! You got it. :) By submission, I will follow what Allah has revealed. Allah revealed Torah, Nevi'im, the Gospel, and Qur'an. I *choose* to follow those revelations. You are under no obligation and I think no less of you for not.

(Inshallah, all of this will make sense)

No offence intended, but I have to ask; does your church define morality, in your mind?

I've seen many statements similar to yours, and even more declarations about atheists being inherently amoral & the like, so I'm seriously wondering about this.

It helps quite a lot in defining morality for me. Other stuff influences it, of course - even my church's version of morality was influenced by what was going on when it was formed.

I don't think you need to believe (even a little bit) in a given religion to have a moral compass, I just think it really, really helps. It offers a codification of what's right and wrong. Now, if you don't agree with all of it, that's fine - but you've still got that framework of morality to work in.

Basically, it means each generation doesn't have to reinvent the wheel, morally speaking! :D And so we can improve it, instead.

Well, I am a Christian, sorta. I believe Jesus Christ was God, and I believe that the Romans cruicified him. I believe this, because it just seems right. I've always believed in God, and well, I can't explain it exactly, but it keeps me hopeful for the future. I'm not a fundy (Stop Trying to Get Rid of Seperation of Church and State) and I don't believe non-believers go to hell. I mean, beleiving might make it a little easier to get in, but I really don't think that God would send a person to eternal damnation for not believing in him. Did I answer your questions?

I am? Woo Hoo! For how long though?

Oh ... for at least the next 8 hours as I'm about to go to bed. :D

On the serious note, it be Allah who hopes that what you said helps, not you? Or is talking about spirituality? Poo.

Now you're delving into something I'd really rather not discuss on NS General. You're talking to a man who had a vision while he was taking a shower of Jesus who led him to a Mosque to embrace Islam. Yes ... Jesus.

People around here already think I'm insane enough. :)

Because of faith. I wish I could explain it better, but hope is what happens when you desire things to be better. In Islam, all is the will of Allah and, thus, hope is a wasted emotion. To quote the Buddha, suffering is the result of desire.

I have given myself to Allah. I have no need for hope.

I hope that helps. :)
Ker, sometimes I cant stand you when you are joking. I always prefer you serious.
I knew exactly what you meant when you dont need Hope when you have Faith.


To the Thread starter.
Any way I am Christian--Much like Ker I have no desire to discuss the Ins and Outs my faith here--NS is not really faithful friendly--or even neutral.

To all your other questions--well I dont have answers as funny as Ker's.
I cant express in words those answers--it boils directly down to faith, and doubt.
Without Doubt--I wouldnt have any real Faith.

Ker, sometimes I cant stand you when you are joking. I always prefer you serious.
I knew exactly what you meant when you dont need Hope when you have Faith.


I know, Skib ... but I can't help it.

We're not on the most faith friendly forum, so I prefer just to fuck around and let go and let God.

By the way Ker, I believe you ....quantify(is that word?) my picture of the ideal Musilm. Based of course on what you say, for whatever that is worth.

peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you, and your family.

By the way Ker, I believe you ....quantify(is that word?) my picture of the ideal Musilm. Based of course on what you say, for whatever that is worth.

I can only pray that in your lifetime you see 1,000,000 more example of Muslims. We're a pretty good bunch, ya know. :D


peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you, and your family.

And the same to you. Walaikum Sala'am, my brother (sister?).

I believe that no good ever came from a bunch of people worshipping the same god(or gods) together. Especially under someone else's leadership.

Actually, I could come up with plenty of times where I prayed and they weren't answered. Like finding my father dead and praying as the EMTs tried to resuscitate him that they would succed, but they didn't. Or the times that I have prayed to have another child, but haven't. I feel that these things happen for a reason though.

You have a good point about the coincidence of course. I would chalk it up to coincidence especially on the last instance and I think that you are probably right about the guilt factor. The other two stretch my imagination mostly because they were consistent. Evey time I asked for a room (I tested this every night on the four day trip after the first night), I got one on the very next stop. Every time the cards gave a "pregnancy" reading, it was accurate. Plenty of people try to have babies without success. Those are rather strong "coincidences" in my opinion. Could happen, I suppose.Well, I'm sorry to have made such a poor assumption. I seem to have been making a fair few poor assumptions lately. Perhaps it's a sign I should cut back on my assumptions.

Okay... with the other two incidences I believe it is their significance with regards to our life that makes us feel that there must be a reason that things happened this way. But would you call it a miracle if flipped a coin and it came down headsa a thousand times in a row? There is always at least the tiniest of chances of something happening. Even like the Eerth suddenly exploding as all the electrons on/in earth quantum tunnel to the other side of the universe and cause the earth to explode as the balance of charge disapears. How this is such a tiny chance that it doesn't warrant us ever considering it. It's one of the ideas that Einstein could never come to terms with, his famous quote being "God does not play dice".

But as I said, this doesn't make life, in my view, meaningless by any stretch of the imagination.

Keruvalia:
Who says I don't follow some of those teachings? I may follow them because I, myself, think them good rules to follow. I just like to think that I follow them because I have reasoned that there are good reasons to follow these rules. Such as, I think the reasons given for wearing headscarves are very good (ideally it be better if they reasons simply didn't exist), but I understand why Leviticus bans the consumption of shellfish (yummy).

Okay, I'm off to bed. It's time to admit defeat when you can no longer keep your body still because you're just that tired. (actually, no one in my family can keep still. When we hold a glass of water we can't stop the water shaking ever so slightly - apparently this can be done).

Inshallah? huh?

*drags link to topic to desktop so I can easily get back here tomorrow*

I believe in what is real and solid. If I can exert demonstratable power over it, or it can demonstratable exert power over me, then it is true. Therefore, I have to deny any godhead that isn't able or willing to directly and demonstratably assault me or serve me.
So far, no gods have come down to bitch-slap me, so they can continue suffering from my withering scorn and lack of confidence in their abilities.

That, anyway, is what most of me feels. I have this annoying voice in the back of my head that demands that their not only be a god, but that said god greet me and send me straight to Hell when I've shucked my mortal coil.

Well, I am a Christian, sorta. I believe Jesus Christ was God, and I believe that the Romans cruicified him. I believe this, because it just seems right. I've always believed in God, and well, I can't explain it exactly, but it keeps me hopeful for the future. I'm not a fundy (Stop Trying to Get Rid of Seperation of Church and State) and I don't believe non-believers go to hell. I mean, beleiving might make it a little easier to get in, but I really don't think that God would send a person to eternal damnation for not believing in him. Did I answer your questions?

I like that you do not have the attitude of condemnation that I come across so often in Christians. I am also relieved to see you say that you believe this because you feel it is right as opposed to "the bible says so".

I believe in being lazy.

As a result, I'm basically atheist, because it takes more effort than I'm willing to spend to believe in one deity or follow a certain religion. It's not so much that I don't believe in any deities, it's that I can't be bothered to care about whether they exist or not.

Not to mention the follow-up choosing of one particular deity and a religion that goes with that deity and following said religion and la-de-dah... Honestly, way too much effort for something that I'm perfectly fine without and offers me no particular benefits.

I believe in what is real and solid.

Poopie is not very solid.

I believe in being lazy.

Hooray!

I can only pray that in your lifetime you see 1,000,000 more example of Muslims. We're a pretty good bunch, ya know. :D




And the same to you. Walaikum Sala'am, my brother (sister?).

Lol, I live in Dearborn,MI my man--I see them everyday. In all their piss poor attitude--and I can attest that I never seen my 500,000 Arab and Mostly Musilm neighbors do anything any more crazy then anyone else--Not to mention the several Muslims I work with who are non-arab Muslims.

But I dont want to highjack the thread with a Baptist/Muslim lovefest....

It's brother, brother.

People people people.... seriously, you're looking at this the wrong way. Well, most of you are. The important thing to remember when discussion theology and 'spirituality,' as it were, is that the very word 'supernatural' is a self-contained contradiction.

Think about it for a moment: the term quite clearly implies that something is "above" or "beyond" nature , as it's literal meaning alone quite clearly points out. If something is not a part of reality, then it quite clearly doesn't exist, now does it? And if it [i]did [if it could react with and guide reality as most theists maintain], it wouldn't be "supernatural" at all, since it interacts with reality on a daily basis. I mean seriously, you'd figure humankind would have thought around this proverbial corner by now.

I believe in my own form of spirituality. One without God, God or gods.

Love is my spirituality. Not the fairy tale love, or the fabled love, or the magical love, or any of that crap. I believe in the very real love of being non-judgmental. The kind of love that allows you to love everyone from Saint Whomever to Stalin, Hitler and the like even child rapists.

I learned a lesson from hate. Hate hurts everyone including the hater. I have hated. I have had murder in my heart. I have hated so much that a vision of me getting vengeance on the man I hated obscured my vision and made it hard to drive. The only thing that kept me from killing him was the thought of being caught. There was no empathy for him. There was no thought of wrong it is to take a life. The fear of prosecution is the only reason why I didn't attempt to take his life. The experience of having hated that much left me with knowledge of how self destructive hate is. Now I know better than to hate. I understand the means and mechanisms of hate and I don't allow myself to hate.

As an example of hate let me use the movie villains. Many of you have probably seen movie villains get what they had coming to them and loved it. You loved to watch that villain in pain because you hated him or her. I think that describes very well what hate is. Imagine however loving the villain. Imagine being hurt when the villain is hurt just like you would if it was the hero being hurt. That is real love. I'm not saying there shouldn't be laws and punishments. I'm saying empathy for those who have done wrong is real love.

That is my spirituality. That is my religion.

As to spiritual dimensions and the unknown I have had what I would call very real experiences. I have seen a vision ones. I have felt the emotions of another ones without having seen her face. My mom has a wonderful story of how a table she used for divination stood on one leg and could not be pushed back down. She also tells of some messages received through the Ouija board that the people working the Ouija board did not know the answer to but could soon confirm.

My investigation into the unknown leads me to believe that something exists. I just doubt any religion knows what it is.

I believe in magic, in a young girl's heart.

oh, and of course


...

Unicron.

*snip*
You assume, though, that love and hate is all there is. One can also feel neither one and approach the world in a manner of complete apathy. Both love and hate reduce your ability to make rational desicions and can get you killed by making you do something stupid.

Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.
I am an athiest, and I do not "choose to believe there are no higher powers of any kind". I believe nothing. Athiesm is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. I prefer to base my life on facts, not beliefs.

I am an athiest, and I do not "choose to believe there are no higher powers of any kind". I believe nothing. Athiesm is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. I prefer to base my life on facts, not beliefs.
Believe: a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real
So you don't accept anything as true or real? What about the Interweb? Surely you must believe that NS exists?
Everyone believes something, with the possible exception of Buddhists who are crazy anyway.

Believe: a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real
So you don't accept anything as true or real? What about the Interweb? Surely you must believe that NS exists?
Everyone believes something, with the possible exception of Buddhists who are crazy anyway.
It should be clear that, the subject being religious, the former definition is the one applicable here.

You seem to equate hope (or perhaps aspirations) with spirituality. If that's what you mean, then obviously all people have 'a spiritual side'. But if you're talking about spirituality in the litteral sense, then I should very much like to see you back up that claim.
I have no such 'side', but plenty of hopes & dreams.

As it is, the rest of your post is pretty much what I would've answered, if I'd taken the OP serious.
You may be right as far as equating hope with spirituality. I had read through the dictionary definitions and I didn't seem to find one that fits what I believe. I had to think about it for a while and the best definition I came up for spirituality is "the ability to see things not as they are but as they can become". It's being able to see things in a spiritual way that allows one to ignore all the naysayers and go forward to making that vision reality.

People people people.... seriously, you're looking at this the wrong way. Well, most of you are. The important thing to remember when discussion theology and 'spirituality,' as it were, is that the very word 'supernatural' is a self-contained contradiction.

Think about it for a moment: the term quite clearly implies that something is "above" or "beyond" nature , as it's literal meaning alone quite clearly points out. If something is not a part of reality, then it quite clearly doesn't exist, now does it? And if it [i]did [if it could react with and guide reality as most theists maintain], it wouldn't be "supernatural" at all, since it interacts with reality on a daily basis. I mean seriously, you'd figure humankind would have thought around this proverbial corner by now.

I like you. You're silly. :)

It should be clear that, the subject being religious, the former definition is the one applicable here.
Yes, but my point (which was rather confused by my witticism) is thus:
Yes, wise acre, you do "choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind." You choose to accept as true, genuine, or real that there are no higher powers, because if you weren't accepting that there were no higher powers, you'd be an agnostic.
Got it? The only people who "believe in nothing" are agnostics.

Yes, but my point (which was rather confused by my witticism) is thus:
Yes, wise acre, you do "choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind." You choose to accept as true, genuine, or real that there are no higher powers, because if you weren't accepting that there were no higher powers, you'd be an agnostic.
Got it? The only people who "believe in nothing" are agnostics.
Obviously I choose to accept as true, genuine, or real that there are no higher powers. No shit, Sherlock. That's why that definition is pointless for a religious discussion, which is why the former definition exists.

People people people.... seriously, you're looking at this the wrong way. Well, most of you are. The important thing to remember when discussion theology and 'spirituality,' as it were, is that the very word 'supernatural' is a self-contained contradiction.

Think about it for a moment: the term quite clearly implies that something is "above" or "beyond" nature , as it's literal meaning alone quite clearly points out. If something is not a part of reality, then it quite clearly doesn't exist, now does it? And if it [i]did [if it could react with and guide reality as most theists maintain], it wouldn't be "supernatural" at all, since it interacts with reality on a daily basis. I mean seriously, you'd figure humankind would have thought around this proverbial corner by now.
It never ceases to amaze how correct Witgenstein remains in the measure of philosophical debate, rarely is and idea debated, simply the language.

PLease allow my retort,
1. you suppose all Believers place there faith in an area that tothem would befined as supernatural i.e. non-existant, simply because you do.


2. Assuming for moment to assume a person having a mystical aspect to their personal spiritualism MUST use a different WORD(simply a sound used to communicate an idea to another person, which imparts no prescribed value in and if its self) then I suppose then:
"The preternatural or praeternatural labels things or events which appear outside (Latin praeter) the bounds of nature as currently understood."

Those will suffice, and we have turned your "proverbial corner" as it were.

Obviously I choose to accept as true, genuine, or real that there are no higher powers. No shit, Sherlock. That's why that definition is pointless for a religious discussion, which is why the former definition exists.
But that there are two definitions for a word doesn't matter. What matters is that you (and all athiests) believe in the absence of something. You (all) don't believe in nothing. Therefore, your sarky comment about belief was invalid.
Christjesusmuhammedallahgodyahwehbuddhaodin, why do I even bother explaining things?

You assume, though, that love and hate is all there is. One can also feel neither one and approach the world in a manner of complete apathy. Both love and hate reduce your ability to make rational desicions and can get you killed by making you do something stupid.

Hate will get the hated Killed, Love will try to save everyone. Apathy will kill everybody.

A man who ones spyed against the U.S.A. while he was an american said something like hate isn't the worst human condition in hate you must love something apathy requires no love.

Yes, but my point (which was rather confused by my witticism) is thus:
Yes, wise acre, you do "choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind." You choose to accept as true, genuine, or real that there are no higher powers, because if you weren't accepting that there were no higher powers, you'd be an agnostic.
Got it? The only people who "believe in nothing" are agnostics.

Interesting. I have termed myself as agnostic for a while thinking that it meant belief in higher power/s without knowing or assigning a specific design to those higher powers. Then I looked up agnosticism (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=AhS2NFM8UMaP5J4QKUH89H1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3YnZhaWlrBGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGN TYzXzExNg--/SIG=11p844p0a/EXP=1134360944/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic). I guess the more accurate term to depict my view is "agnostic spiritualism".

I am an athiest, and I do not "choose to believe there are no higher powers of any kind". I believe nothing. Athiesm is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. I prefer to base my life on facts, not beliefs.

Everyone bases their life on facts. Water is wet and people float in water are facts. Knowing these things does not mean one knows how to swim, where to swim, or for that matter, why to bother to swim at all. That's where spirituality takes over.

Hate will get the hated Killed, Love will try to save everyone. Apathy will kill everybody.
You forgot to mention that while trying to save everyone through love, you also will get killed. Apathy promotes survival, if only for the moment and myself.
A man who ones spyed against the U.S.A. while he was an american said something like hate isn't the worst human condition in hate you must love something apathy requires no love.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by worst. I am quite at peace with myself, and enjoy it. Others probably would prefer to get an emotion out of me, but that is really their problem.
I can only see life through my eyes, and thus can only judge for myself.

You assume, though, that love and hate is all there is. One can also feel neither one and approach the world in a manner of complete apathy. Both love and hate reduce your ability to make rational desicions and can get you killed by making you do something stupid.
WOW, dare we all aspire to plod through the world in a state of apathy--how glorious mankind would be then compared to Love and Hate as motivation.

A state of mind so indifferent as to be considered a mental defect.
Apathy promotes nothing, at all as to what you suppose, least of all survival.

"Apathy is the lack of emotion, motivation, or enthusiasm. Apathy is a psychological term for a state of indifference — where an individual is irresponsive or "indifferent" to aspects of emotional, social, or physical life. Clinical apathy is considered to be at an elevated level, while a moderate level might be considered depression, and an extreme level could be diagnosed as a disassociative disorder."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apathy

"A state of not caring; not wanting to know; complacency; indifference; to ignore; disinterested in contemplation; anesthetized by popular culture; a postmodern intellectual narcosis; compassion fatigue; too lazy; too busy; self-indulgence; limited choices in work and leisure-time; non-reflection, non-deliberation and subconscious blocking of distressing information. Apathy is less ethically excusable than ignorance..."
http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/biodict.htm

"Lack of interest, concern, or emotion."
http://www.alz.org/Resources/Glossary.asp


"the state of being torpid, absence of any desires and indifference towards the surroundings"
library.thinkquest.org/C0115926/glosary.htm


"• noun lack of interest or enthusiasm.

— ORIGIN Greek apatheia, from apathes ‘without feeling’"
Oxford English Dictionary
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/apathy?view=uk

Most commonly apathy is a condition associated with Alzheimer’s disease so go ahead preaching the greatness of your apathetic belief system.

I discourage bashing of any kind. This thread is not meant to set the stage for a debate.

Silly me! I forgot where I was for a moment. Must be the vodka.

I am not bashing, i am making exactly what the poster obviously does not know-known-apathy has none of the characteristic he is impling.

It holds no virtue--

A better word for him would be Pragmatic.

Or if by bashing you mean allowing someone to go blatthering about uninformed--then I apologize.
If I was a smart ass about it, oh well, since he is apathetic it shouldnt bother him. I do assume we are expected to use for what they actually mean.

But that there are two definitions for a word doesn't matter. What matters is that you (and all athiests) believe in the absence of something. You (all) don't believe in nothing. Therefore, your sarky comment about belief was invalid.
Christjesusmuhammedallahgodyahwehbuddhaodin, why do I even bother explaining things?
I apologize if it sounded snarky. My point still stands, however. Belief, in the traditional, religious sense, does not apply to athiesm. If you're going to apply the second definition, then I also believe in gravity and I believe in breakfast cereal, but the word loses all meaning when it is applied so broadly. Athiesm is not a religious belief; it is the lack of such.

Most commonly apathy is a condition associated with Alzheimer’s disease so go ahead preaching the greatness of your apathetic belief system.
Congratulations, you can look things up over the Interweb; I sure am impressed. When I said apathy I was refering only to lacking emotions, I have motivations and goals, and thus being able to remain constantly and rational about things.
Now quit bitching at the realists and go find another bone to worry at.

http://www.triton.nu/albums/pics/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.thumb.jpg

Everyone bases their life on facts. Water is wet and people float in water are facts. Knowing these things does not mean one knows how to swim, where to swim, or for that matter, why to bother to swim at all. That's where spirituality takes over.
Except that I prefer not to make up answers to the latter questions (though facts certainly tell you the answers to all of those as far as swimming goes), which is what distinguishes athiesm from religious beliefs.

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.

I discourage bashing of any kind. This thread is not meant to set the stage for a debate. I would simply like to learn more about why people choose the spiritual/religious beliefs they have even if it is to believe in nothing at all.
I've gone over this before, but just for you ... ;)

I was raised a Southern Baptist, which means that it was many years before the impact of all the fire and brimstone wore off.

As I gradually came to my senses, I began to read omnivorously: physics, cosmology, genetics, deep ecology, geology, archeology, biology, etc. I gradually came to the realization that the universe seems to be structured in such a way as to favor the formation of life where and when conditions permit. I came to believe that life, particularly intelligent life, may represent an attempt on the part of the universe to become self-aware.

What this means at a practical level is that life, all life, is a part of a vast web, and that the primary purpose of intelligent life is to protect and nurture life wherever it is found.

Humans have a spiritual aspect which we ignore at our peril, and this spiritual aspect has impact in the real world. For example: it has been scientifically proven that prayer and/or meditation can speed the healing process in humans, whether the person being prayed for or meditated about is aware of it or not. Plants which have been "stressed" ( eg: with salt water ) also heal and grow faster. My personal conclusion is that prayer and meditation ( as well as other so-called "paranormal" processes ) somehow have impact at the quantum level.

I find the whole thing fascinating! :)

Except that I prefer not to make up answers to the latter questions (though facts certainly tell you the answers to all of those as far as swimming goes), which is what distinguishes athiesm from religious beliefs.
But atheists do come up with an answer. The answer is that there is no way to swim, and the swimming instructors are merely lying, to you so shut-up and drown already.

But atheists do come up with an answer. The answer is that there is no way to swim, and the swimming instructors are merely lying, to you so shut-up and drown already.
I'm not trying to make up a reason for why we're here. I have none. I merely ignore the answers put forth by religions because they are not based on reliable fact. That doesn't mean I think I have all the answers, it means that I think *no one* has the answers at the present time.

Congratulations, you can look things up over the Interweb; I sure am impressed. When I said apathy I was refering only to lacking emotions, I have motivations and goals, and thus being able to remain constantly and rational about things.
Now quit bitching at the realists and go find another bone to worry at.

First, you are not a realist, dont be upset because I called you on not even knowing the meaning of the words you are using.

Like 'Realist', the mere fact you are offended proves you do not lack emotion.
A true person lacking in emotion and seeking to follow a logical path would be grateful for the correction--since you choose to ignore the LIST of sources demostrating your total incorrectness, you are most certainly not a 'Realist'.

I am not bitching at people for being what they are, I am correcting a person for pretending to know something they dont.

Now before you try throwing words around you have no concept of pick up a dictionary, or this will indeed happen again.

I suggest along with taking a greater examination of the pragmatic approach to life you consider sheding that childish dribble that you expel when someone takes the time to correct your errors.

I've gone over this before, but just for you ... ;)

I was raised a Southern Baptist, which means that it was many years before the impact of all the fire and brimstone wore off.

As I gradually came to my senses, I began to read omnivorously: physics, cosmology, genetics, deep ecology, geology, archeology, biology, etc. I gradually came to the realization that the universe seems to be structured in such a way as to favor the formation of life where and when conditions permit. I came to believe that life, particularly intelligent life, may represent an attempt on the part of the universe to become self-aware.

What this means at a practical level is that life, all life, is a part of a vast web, and that the primary purpose of intelligent life is to protect and nurture life wherever it is found.

Humans have a spiritual aspect which we ignore at our peril, and this spiritual aspect has impact in the real world. For example: it has been scientifically proven that prayer and/or meditation can speed the healing process in humans, whether the person being prayed for or meditated about is aware of it or not. Plants which have been "stressed" ( eg: with salt water ) also heal and grow faster. My personal conclusion is that prayer and meditation ( as well as other so-called "paranormal" processes ) somehow have impact at the quantum level.

I find the whole thing fascinating! :)

That's cool! In reference to your "web" or structure, I also feel that there is a required balance in which positive forces must be equaled by negative forces.

There are so many unexplained phenomena that science has thus far failed to find a logical solution for, but perhaps that will come in time. Then again, maybe some things are meant to be "unkown". I research every form of spiritual and theological material I get my hands on. As I've mentioned in another thread, one of my favorite pastimes is studying the parallels in mythology and religious stories between completely different and distanced cultures. It's fascinating (to me). :D

Like 'Realist', the mere fact you are offended proves you do not lack emotion.
I'm not offended at all, I was just seeing how long I could draw a reaction out of you and if I could skim any logical fallacies past you (You missed a fairly big one, but I suppose that "remain constantly" is to obvious to be worth notice). Then I look away for an hour and you wander off to sleep, or something equally useless. Now whose time am I going to waste?
*Shakes fist in the general direction of the Universe*

I believe in sleep, beer, and sex.

I believe in sleep, beer, and sex.
So no Santa or Faeries? I'm ashamed at you, TSI, very ashamed.
The a legion of Hungry Ghosts to track you down and serenade you with their crappy poorly titled music.

So no Santa or Faeries? I'm ashamed at you, TSI, very ashamed.
The a legion of Hungry Ghosts to track you down and serenade you with their crappy poorly titled music.

I deboweled Santa after I caught him sleeping with my Brother.

I deboweled Santa after I caught him sleeping with my Brother.
You can't just kill Santa, he exists in the heart of every innocent child.
Then the answer, brother, is to kill all the children and burn their hearts.
But, brother, that would be mean and pointless!
What greater reason is there for an action!
Good point, let us go!
May the hunt begin.

You can't just kill Santa, he exists in the heart of every innocent child.
Then the answer, brother, is to kill all the children and burn their hearts.
But, brother, that would be mean and pointless!
What greater reason is there for an action!
Good point, let us go!
May the hunt begin.

Excellent!

I shall be the procurer of all things pointy and hurtful.

I'm a recently 'converted' Buddhist.

It's 3.30 AM here, and im lazy, so if you really care enough to go look, go here: http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud.htm

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.

I discourage bashing of any kind. This thread is not meant to set the stage for a debate. I would simply like to learn more about why people choose the spiritual/religious beliefs they have even if it is to believe in nothing at all.
I'm having problems with this now in my life.
apparently it was suposed to be cleared when I was a teenager but nothing happened...
you see I really don't beleive in anything after death.. just nothing. But now that I have kids... it I don't know it makes me want to beleive something is after death so I can be with them one day.. just the thought of loosing them.. or them loosing me. I mean.. I want to beleive but I cant... and than it's just so.. ew. regiemted.. and than you can't beleive in things you want.. it's crazy. It's not that I feel empty.. it's that I feel... scared of the end... But yeah.. sometimes I feel like my life is meaningless.. it really boggles me why they try to cure cancer and disease when people die one day anyways....

I'm having problems with this now in my life.
apparently it was suposed to be cleared when I was a teenager but nothing happened...


When you say "cleared", do you mean as defined by Scientology?

That's a rather tricky question for me, as I keep changing my views.

I was raised catholic, that's something you'll never be quite able to shake off, not so much from the spiritual side but rather regarding rituals and a certain perspective on the world. That perspective depends enormously on what your experiences with Catholics were, so mine is rather friendly and benevolent. I was taught that nothing is ever more important than another human being who needs you, that acceptance, love and tolerance ought to be valued above all else.

In time, I kind of lost my general belief in god and turned into angnostic humanitarian.
I still suspect that there may be some higher powers, but I doubt that they are involved with our own little existance at all.
I don't believe anythnig in this world is eternal, in fact I hope sincerely that existance will just end with death, that there is no afterlife in any way, just nothingness.

And yes, I do lay the Tarot cards as well, and much of what they say is true. However, to my mind thay are not really predicting things themselves, but serve as a focus of concentration and allow for almost all interpretation. It's a bit like staring in the mirror long enough, everything you read in them is really something that comes from within yourself.

When you say "cleared", do you mean as defined by Scientology?
*blink* oh god no.. as defined by pshycolgy (dont feel like looking up how to spell it)
Around adolesice you're suposed to know what your are and where youre going as far as religion. In my case i never figured it out than so it's all comming to a head now..

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope?

I believe in Discordianism - by which I mean that Chaos is the origin of all that is, and that the most important thing in life is that taking anything too seriously is just a way of letting yourself get stressed out, frazzled, and generally incapable of appreciating the beauty of existence.

I believe the way I do because Discordianism honestly doesn't care about what anyone believes - even another Discordian can have totally different views, and we're okay with that. I believe that freedom of all kinds is the most valuable thing ever, and that those who try to force their views on others are rather missing the point.

What inspires me about it? Everything. It's about the lighter, positive emotions. It's about enjoying your life and paying attention for the cosmic punchline. Life's a game, we don't know the rules, and everyone keeps trying to make rules to fill the gap. I change the rules when they bother me, and it really is amazing how often I get away with it, leaving me happier and thus more effective in the long run.

I believe that Chaos is really a balance - a highly dynamic balance. Creation, destruction, order, and disorder, all mingled together into the wild ride that chaos theory talks about, where incredibly complex patterns can arise from seemingly random events, only to fade away back into disorder when some other random event happens.
The rest of the world is focused on Order and Destruction. People kill each other over whose rules are the right ones.
Things need a balance. That's why Discordians exist. We're the disorderly, the creative, the peculiar in the world that keeps everything from becoming a straitjacket. People are Discordians without ever knowing it - the guy who makes everyone laugh with his remarks is a Discordian. The woman who sings for no reason other than because she feels like it is a Discordian. The kid who shares his lunch with a hungry classmate is a Discordian. The Christians and Moslems and everyone else who tries to make the world a better place to live... All Discordians, in my book.

Live long, laugh a lot, be happy, and enjoy the greatest game ever devised.
Just remember, there's no point in trying to keep score, because we don't know any of the real rules.

Hmmm...

Yes, supernatural is a contradiction if taken in its literal meaning, but in its orginal use it is taken to mean something that exists beyond our senses. As such, god is supernatural as we cannot see him, nor hear him, nor touch him, nor smell him, nor taste him (:confused:).

This takes us to my favoured meaning of agnosticism, which literally means 'without knowledge', that we cannot possibly have any knowledge of the divine so we are not in any position to make a judgement either way. There's an argument that this means we should play is safe and believe in god as we're less likely to lose out. However, I believe it means the converse, that if we cannot be sure of an afterlife then we shouldn't let ourselves waste any of the only life we KNOW we have. The other form of agnositicism is the belief that there is a higher being, but we can have no knowledge of this higher being, therefore all speculation on our part is useless.

So if the former meaning of agnosticism is the position that holds no belief then what is atheism? Well atheism is considered to mean that there is no belief in a god. However, this does not mean the individual does no believe, indeed they believe there is no god as there is no supporting evidence either way. They say they rely on facts and not beliefs, but this is the actual root of their belief. Just what proportion of these 'facts' have been gathered and indepently verified by themselves? By relying on scientific fact the individual is acting on faith that what others tell them is true (much like how the preached has faith that what the preacher says is truth). How many atheists could explain, with individually provided and verifiable proof, how every single aspect of science and its applications? Otherwise how can they prove that they haven't been lied to and that a camera really works by little magic goblins painting a picture of the scene in the fraction of the second that the shutter opens[1]?

You cannot have a reasonable, and happy life if you do not have faith in at least a certain few things. Be it god or other people or both. Be it god or science or both or something else. I personally prefer to place my faith in humanity, my friends and my family. I know I will probably be let down by them ocassionally, but has I have already said, life is not life with the highs AND lows.

[1] Idea 'borrowed' from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series <3

<snip>
Live long, laugh a lot, be happy, and enjoy the greatest game ever devised.
Just remember, there's no point in trying to keep score, because we don't know any of the real rules.That's a great view you have there, that is, I agree with it, and I mean all of it, not just the part I didn't cut. Perhaps I am one of the discordians who doesn't realise it?

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.



i believe in mother nature, because living where i live i get to see the extreme beauty but also fragility of nature, and i believe that it is our duty as the dominant species to protect it, as it gave us life in the first place.

I'm really suprised that few Christians have taken any time to answer your question. We're supposed to want to push our beliefs on other people, right? :-P

I believe that (and, more importantly, it is true that) there is a God, the creator and sustainer of the universe. I believe this because I can find no better explanation for my existence.

God is both loving and just. This means that while God desires everyone to be happy, He can't allow them to just do whatever they like. People sin (i.e. they do not behave in perfectly good ways), and God's justice demands that He not ignore it. The result: everyone who sins (and that means everyone) deserves to be separated from God (i.e. goodness/love) forever. Christians call this Hell.

I'd like to emphasize that God isn't some evil, mean, grumpy dude in the sky who hates people who don't do exactly what He wants. He's a loving Father. But it isn't love to ignore justice.

But if God is love, why is everyone going to Hell?

The answer is--everyone isn't going to Hell. God Himself ransomed us from the results of sin. Jesus Christ, who was fully divine, was born as a man so that He could teach all nations about God. But more importantly, He, being God, had the power to take on Himself the sins of all people, suffering complete separation from the holiness of God the Father (and there we get into some complicated but not unexplainable issues of the trinity. Bottom line: there is only one God, but He has three "manifestations" with different roles). Jesus demonstrated that He conquered death and Hell by rising again. My reason for believing this is not that "the Bible/my parents/my church told me so" (although they did) or that "I feel like it" (although I do). It's very simple. A Jew by the name of Jesus did live and was crucified in the first century; based on other proofs (a large number of witnesses, the tenacity of the early church, testimony of non-Christians at the time), I think it's reasonable to assume that He did rise from the dead. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that anyone who was dead and isn't any longer is divine and pretty darn credible.

The final piece is your response--Although Christ died to cover sin, no one has to accept his offering. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9-10) In Jesus' own words, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may dies, he shall live" (John 11:25) and more famously "God so loved the world that He gave his only son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The everlasting life He's talking about means, first, being with God (going to Heaven) when the believer dies, and second, eventually receiving a new, glorified body when Christ finally ends all evil forever (but that's another story!).

So does this affect my life? Definitely. Although actions aren't required for salvation, I will behave differently if I really love God. Everyone knows that genuine convictions affect actions. My faith gives me hope. I know my life has purpose; I know that other people have genuine worth because God loves and has died for them. I know that God calls me to be an example and encouragement to other people. Christ gives me joy, because I know that even if I die, I'll live. John 10:10 says He wants me to have "life abundantly"; absolutely everything I do can and should glorify God, and that gives me a huge responsibility and the potential for incredible satisfaction when I do.

If you're really interested in learning about different views of spirituality and you want to learn more about Jesus, I encourage you to go straight to the source: the story of Jesus in the Bible. Lots of places would be willing to give you a free Bible if you asked; look up the Gideons.

And plus, it's seasonally-appropriate! Merry Christmas!

What do you believe in? What is your position on spirituality?

It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. What about your faith inspires you? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? Does it give you hope? Even if you are atheist, I would like to know why you choose to believe there are no higher poweres of any kind.

I've fluctuated between atheism and agnosticism since I was about twelve, the main trigger being disillusionment with what I have been "conditioned" (as I perceived was the case, and still do) to believe. I'm comfortable with my position, as I can act for myself, not calculating each move to see if I'm still on the "path to Heaven". Thus the rewards for my actions are greater - if I am charitable, it is because of ME, and not debased through acting for another (God, whoever). I also don't live in fear of going to Hell, which according to the Bible, and the crazy guy down Oxford Circus, I'm on the fast-track to.

Believing there are no higher powers gives me perspective... a higher power watching over people implies people are important, prompting some to wage holy war, others to compromise the environment and other creatures, etc. In contrast, I think we're just here. Or not...?

People want to go to Heaven to be next to God. I would rather not associate with entities that condemn those who do not believe in their ideals. Taking the Christian God, who, as purported by the Bible, endorsed holy war against disbelievers. I think that's kinda mean. No all-kind God would do that. And I don't want to be near someone who isn't all-kind, in an afterlife (hell, I'd probably be frail and weak, and relying on state benefits). I'd much rather become dust and make flowers!

I'm really suprised that few Christians have taken any time to answer your question. We're supposed to want to push our beliefs on other people, right? :-P

I believe that (and, more importantly, it is true that) there is a God, the creator and sustainer of the universe. I believe this because I can find no better explanation for my existence.

God is both loving and just. This means that while God desires everyone to be happy, He can't allow them to just do whatever they like. People sin (i.e. they do not behave in perfectly good ways), and God's justice demands that He not ignore it. The result: everyone who sins (and that means everyone) deserves to be separated from God (i.e. goodness/love) forever. Christians call this Hell.

I'd like to emphasize that God isn't some evil, mean, grumpy dude in the sky who hates people who don't do exactly what He wants. He's a loving Father. But it isn't love to ignore justice.

But if God is love, why is everyone going to Hell?

The answer is--everyone isn't going to Hell. God Himself ransomed us from the results of sin. Jesus Christ, who was fully divine, was born as a man so that He could teach all nations about God. But more importantly, He, being God, had the power to take on Himself the sins of all people, suffering complete separation from the holiness of God the Father (and there we get into some complicated but not unexplainable issues of the trinity. Bottom line: there is only one God, but He has three "manifestations" with different roles). Jesus demonstrated that He conquered death and Hell by rising again. My reason for believing this is not that "the Bible/my parents/my church told me so" (although they did) or that "I feel like it" (although I do). It's very simple. A Jew by the name of Jesus did live and was crucified in the first century; based on other proofs (a large number of witnesses, the tenacity of the early church, testimony of non-Christians at the time), I think it's reasonable to assume that He did rise from the dead. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that anyone who was dead and isn't any longer is divine and pretty darn credible.

The final piece is your response--Although Christ died to cover sin, no one has to accept his offering. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9-10) In Jesus' own words, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may dies, he shall live" (John 11:25) and more famously "God so loved the world that He gave his only son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The everlasting life He's talking about means, first, being with God (going to Heaven) when the believer dies, and second, eventually receiving a new, glorified body when Christ finally ends all evil forever (but that's another story!).

So does this affect my life? Definitely. Although actions aren't required for salvation, I will behave differently if I really love God. Everyone knows that genuine convictions affect actions. My faith gives me hope. I know my life has purpose; I know that other people have genuine worth because God loves and has died for them. I know that God calls me to be an example and encouragement to other people. Christ gives me joy, because I know that even if I die, I'll live. John 10:10 says He wants me to have "life abundantly"; absolutely everything I do can and should glorify God, and that gives me a huge responsibility and the potential for incredible satisfaction when I do.

If you're really interested in learning about different views of spirituality and you want to learn more about Jesus, I encourage you to go straight to the source: the story of Jesus in the Bible. Lots of places would be willing to give you a free Bible if you asked; look up the Gideons.

And plus, it's seasonally-appropriate! Merry Christmas!

I think I have had more than enough education in this area, having attended Catholic School for 12 years. The problem I have with this is that the bible is full of contradictions. I personally feel that the bible is not a reliable source of information, having been interpreted and edited throughout the centuries. In one part it will tell you "an eye for an eye" while in another it will say "turn the othther cheek". The bible is highly subject to personal interpretation and, while I think it serves as a particularly interesting mirror for the human soul, I do not feel it gives me a stable enough path to base a belief system on.

I think I have had more than enough education in this area, having attended Catholic School for 12 years. The problem I have with this is that the bible is full of contradictions. I personally feel that the bible is not a reliable source of information, having been interpreted and edited throughout the centuries. In one part it will tell you "an eye for an eye" while in another it will say "turn the othther cheek". The bible is highly subject to personal interpretation and, while I think it serves as a particularly interesting mirror for the human soul, I do not feel it gives me a stable enough path to base a belief system on.
I attended Catholic school and no--that gives you little to no biblical understanding--you are versed in Catholic Doctrine and Canon--not in scripture. I suggest the Geneva Translation--short of that the KJV1611........

If want me to continue my suggestion please PM me.

I'm really suprised that few Christians have taken any time to answer your question. We're supposed to want to push our beliefs on other people, right? :-P { snip }

I'm all for the promotion of peoples faith. I'm also for the critisism of other peoples faith.

So in honor of this right I grant myself and others I'd like to say this. My beliefs are better than yours. Your beliefs are backwards and somewhat delusional.

I believe the Bible has loads of crap. Oh there is good stuff in there also don't get me wrong. I think people are better off using there own modern heads than relying on the words of superstitous folk from way back when.

That said I'd like to tell you of all the things that don't exist. Evil is non-existant. Sure bad things happen and people do bad things etc. but the kind of evil we see in fairy tails movies etc. is non-existant. All things good and bad have very natural mechinisms that have nothing to do with good and evil. Secondly sin does not exist. No man not even one can or has demonstrated that they have heard the rules all men should live by through the voice of God. Sexual taboos do exist but not thier justification. There is no sexual purity. There is no sexual impurity. God didn't make AIDS to punish "fags". Sex just feels good and is a mechanism in reproduction. There is no forbidden knowledge. No Sight or Sound is so impure as to corrupt the person who sees or hears them that goes for all pornography, violent video games, and vulgar words. There is more to. Although you need to be a Christian to believe in many of the things I say simply do not exist.

Quoting a song seems to be the coolest way to answer this, so I'll try too:

Dark is the light,
The man you fight,
With all your prayers, incantations,
Running away, a trivial day,
Of judgment and deliverance,
To whom was sold, this bounty soul,
A gentile or a priest?
Who victored over, the Seljuks,
When the holy land was taken

We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens

Was it the riches, of the land,
Powers of bright darkness,
That lead the noble, to the East,
To fight the heathens

We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens

We must call upon our bright darkness,
Beliefs, they're the bullets of the wicked,
One was written on the sword,
For you must enter a room to destroy it,
International security,
Call of the righteous man,
Needs a reason to kill man,
History teaches us so,
The reason he must attain,
Must be approved by his God,
His child, partisan brother of war.

YES!
We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens
We will fight the heathens, We will fight the heathens
Because so are we told to do


EDIT: Second coolest way would have been to quote Dark Shadowy Nexus, because he seems to have very similar thoughts with me, and the ability to announce it without all the clumsyness of mine. Congraz.

Had I known you have that much experience with Catholic school, I probably would have cut back a bit. Sorry; I just really like to be complete.

As to the Bible being interpreted and edited--interpreted, sure. That's what pastors and priests get paid to do every single Sunday. Edited, not really. I'm pretty sure that most research shows that manuscripts of the Bible from the oldest to the most recent have only minor differences that don't affect the meaning.

Contradictions--Here's the problem with interpretation; most people come to the Bible asking, "What do I think it means?" rather than "What did the author mean?" Take a look at the proof-texts you've got there. "An eye for an eye" is part of the law for the Hebrew nation (Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20, Deut. 19:21). It's about political justice, not personal behavior. Jesus says it too in Matthew 5:38, but the very next verse is the second one you brought up. Look: "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Although the old law demanded justice, Christians should extend mercy in their relationships.

So, yeah, people can interpret the Bible however they like. They could be wrong, though. Just as with any writing, everything should be examined in context.

What do you believe in? Many things. God being only one of them. What is your position on spirituality? A wussy word.
It doesn't matter what your faith is, I would like to know more about it. www.vatican.va / www.catholic.com ;) I would like to know why you chose to believe what you do. I'm… not sure. I had a complete turnaround aged 14, and to this day I still couldn't give a full explanation from rampant secular atheist deism to Christianity. What about your faith inspires you? Um… all of it? Why do you feel your faith suits you as a person? Haha, it doesn't. I'm arrogant, judgemental, violently inclined, unforgiving naturally. Not exactly the ideal makeup for a Christian. Do you feel that your faith truly affects your lifestyle? I hope it does. Does it give you hope? I would like to disagree with Keruvalia here. However strong faith is, it is never a certainty, and therefore naturally gives rise to hope. Faith, hope and love. :)

I'm pretty sure that most research shows that manuscripts of the Bible from the oldest to the most recent have only minor differences that don't affect the meaning.I wouldn't be quite that sure. I only provide this anecdotally, but a friend of a friend who was working on translating an old manuscript of the bible that was in Aramaic said the passage talks about Jesus walking on water could also be translated as walking by the water.

Now I don't know if the context dictates that it is 'on' rather than 'by'. But if it is perhaps later translations of the Bible had the context altered to make make 'on' the better choice.

I like that you do not have the attitude of condemnation that I come across so often in Christians. I am also relieved to see you say that you believe this because you feel it is right as opposed to "the bible says so".
Thank you. That means a lot.

I really liked the water metaphor, so I started thinking about what it would be like to interview people of various religions floating out in the middle of the ocean. Some of it may be a bit of a parody, but it's not my intention to make it mean spirited:

Christianity
Interviewer: "Hi there! So what are you doing out here"
Christian: "I'm swimming to reach dry land! God said dry land was that way, so that's where I'm swimming. Once a week, I check in with God to make sure I'm headed the right direction. I'm so tired of being wet all the time!"

Islam
Interviewer: "Greetings! So what brings you out to the vast ocean?"
Muslim: "I'm swimming to reach dry land!. Allah said that I must swim to dry land, so I am swimming. Five times a day, I check in with Allah to make sure I'm headed in the right direction."

New Age
Interviewer: "Hello! What are you doing out here?"
New Ager: "Wow! Isn't it amazing how blue the water is?"

LDS
Interviewer: "Hi! What are you doing out here?"
Mormon: "I'm swimming to reach dry land! On the way, I'm looking for like-minded people so we can get together and form a living raft of swimmers so we have a much better chance of reaching dry land. God said it was that way, so that's where I'm going!"

Satanism
Interviewer: "Uh hi. Out of curiosity, what are you doing out in the ocean?"
Satanist: I'm looking for weaker swimmers so I can drown them and make a raft out of their corpses. Say, you look like a strong swimmer. How about we team up and make the process more efficient?"
Interviewer: "Um, no thanks."

Mahayana Buddhism
Interviewer: "Greetings! What are you doing out here?"
Buddhist: "I'm swimming. It's my goal to be the best swimmer I can be. When I meet people that aren't swimming so well, I help to teach them how to swim. What better way to learn how to swim than to teach another?"
Interviewer: "Aren't you trying to reach dry land?"
Buddhist: "Why would I want to reach dry land? If I were on dry land, then I couldn't swim."

Zen Buddhism
Interviewer: "Hello! What are you doing?"
Zen: "I'm treading water so I can watch the waves. There are no waves though. It's just my thoughts that fluctuate."

Atheist
Interviewer: "Hi there! What brings you out to the middle of a vast ocean?"
Atheist: "Nothing."
Interviewer: "Oh. What about swimming?"
Atheist: "I don't know how to swim."
Interviewer: "You're treading water though. Isn't that swimming?"
Atheist:" I already told you: I don't know how to swim! And no, I don't want to learn how to swim either!"
Interviewer: "Er, okay..."

Rastafarianism
Interviewer: " Hi! What are you doing out here?"
Rastafarian: "Good day to you, mon! Thank Jah for seaweed!"

Amusing way of looking at it. You sure have a thing for atheists and swimming (or lack thereof). :D