NationStates Jolt Archive


Got a cellphone? "We know where you are!"

Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:03
COMMENTARY: I believe that, while somewhat contrived, the right to privacy is essentially an important right. Yet, with technology racing into this area at breakneck speed, if you use cellphones, GPS devices, etc., your location, time at each location, etc., is easily accessible to governmental agencies. Does the government's need to be able to track terrorists, drug dealers and other criminals ( or potential criminals - a worrisome thought! ) trump the "right to privacy?" It's a conundrum unique to our age.

( I apologize for quoting the article in its entirety here, but I see this as an important issue, both for individual privacy and for public safety. )


Live Tracking of Mobile Phones
Prompts Court Fights on Privacy (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/technology/10phone.html?th&emc=th)


By MATT RICHTEL
Published: December 10, 2005
Most Americans carry cellphones, but many may not know that government agencies can track their movements through the signals emanating from the handset.

Tracing a Cellphone In recent years, law enforcement officials have turned to cellular technology as a tool for easily and secretly monitoring the movements of suspects as they occur. But this kind of surveillance - which investigators have been able to conduct with easily obtained court orders - has now come under tougher legal scrutiny.

In the last four months, three federal judges have denied prosecutors the right to get cellphone tracking information from wireless companies without first showing "probable cause" to believe that a crime has been or is being committed. That is the same standard applied to requests for search warrants.

The rulings, issued by magistrate judges in New York, Texas and Maryland, underscore the growing debate over privacy rights and government surveillance in the digital age.

With mobile phones becoming as prevalent as conventional phones (there are 195 million cellular subscribers in this country), wireless companies are starting to exploit the phones' tracking abilities. For example, companies are marketing services that turn phones into even more precise global positioning devices for driving or allowing parents to track the whereabouts of their children through the handsets.

Not surprisingly, law enforcement agencies want to exploit this technology, too - which means more courts are bound to wrestle with what legal standard applies when government agents ask to conduct such surveillance.

Cellular operators like Verizon Wireless and Cingular Wireless know, within about 300 yards, the location of their subscribers whenever a phone is turned on. Even if the phone is not in use it is communicating with cellphone tower sites, and the wireless provider keeps track of the phone's position as it travels. The operators have said that they turn over location information when presented with a court order to do so.

The recent rulings by the magistrates, who are appointed by a majority of the federal district judges in a given court, do not bind other courts. But they could significantly curtail access to cell location data if other jurisdictions adopt the same reasoning. (The government's requests in the three cases, with their details, were sealed because they involve investigations still under way.)

"It can have a major negative impact," said Clifford S. Fishman, a former prosecutor in the Manhattan district attorney's office and a professor at the Catholic University of America's law school in Washington. "If I'm on an investigation and I need to know where somebody is located who might be committing a crime, or, worse, might have a hostage, real-time knowledge of where this person is could be a matter of life or death."

Prosecutors argue that having such information is crucial to finding suspects, corroborating their whereabouts with witness accounts, or helping build a case for a wiretap on the phone - especially now that technology gives criminals greater tools for evading law enforcement.

The government has routinely used records of cellphone calls and caller locations to show where a suspect was at a particular time, with access to those records obtainable under a lower legal standard. (Wireless operators keep cellphone location records for varying lengths of time, from several months to years.)

But it is unclear how often prosecutors have asked courts for the right to obtain cell-tracking data as a suspect is moving. And the government is not required to report publicly when it makes such requests.

Legal experts say that such live tracking has tended to happen in drug-trafficking cases. In a 2003 Ohio case, for example, federal drug agents used cell tracking data to arrest and convict two men on drug charges.

Mr. Fishman said he believed that the number of requests had become more prevalent in the last two years - and the requests have often been granted with a stroke of a magistrate's pen.

Prosecutors, while acknowledging that they have to get a court order before obtaining real-time cell-site data, argue that the relevant standard is found in a 1994 amendment to the 1986 Stored Communications Act, a law that governs some aspects of cellphone surveillance.

The standard calls for the government to show "specific and articulable facts" that demonstrate that the records sought are "relevant and material to an ongoing investigation" - a standard lower than the probable-cause hurdle.

The magistrate judges, however, ruled that surveillance by cellphone - because it acts like an electronic tracking device that can follow people into homes and other personal spaces - must meet the same high legal standard required to obtain a search warrant to enter private places.

"Permitting surreptitious conversion of a cellphone into a tracking device without probable cause raises serious Fourth Amendment concerns, especially when the phone is monitored in the home or other places where privacy is reasonably expected," wrote Stephen W. Smith, a magistrate in Federal District Court in the Southern District of Texas, in his ruling.

"The distinction between cell site data and information gathered by a tracking device has practically vanished," wrote Judge Smith. He added that when a phone is monitored, the process is usually "unknown to the phone users, who may not even be on the phone."

Prosecutors in the recent cases also unsuccessfully argued that the expanded police powers under the USA Patriot Act could be read as allowing cellphone tracking under a standard lower than probable cause.

As Judge Smith noted in his 31-page opinion, the debate goes beyond a question of legal standard. In fact, the nature of digital communications makes it difficult to distinguish between content that is clearly private and information that is public. When information is communicated on paper, for instance, it is relatively clear that information written on an envelope deserves a different kind of protection than the contents of the letter inside.

But in a digital era, the stream of data that carries a telephone conversation or an e-mail message contains a great deal of information - like when and where the communications originated.

In the digital era, what's on the envelope and what's inside of it, "have absolutely blurred," said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a privacy advocacy group.

And that makes it harder for courts to determine whether a certain digital surveillance method invokes Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches.

In the cellular-tracking cases, some legal experts say that the Store Communications Act refers only to records of where a person has been, i.e. historical location data, but does not address live tracking.

Kevin Bankston, a lawyer for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group that has filed briefs in the case in the Eastern District of New York, said the law did not speak to that use. James Orenstein, the magistrate in the New York case, reached the same conclusion, as did Judge Smith in Houston and James Bredar, a magistrate judge in the Federal District Court in Maryland.

Orin S. Kerr, a professor at the George Washington School of Law and a former trial attorney in the Justice Department specializing in computer law, said the major problem for prosecutors was Congress did not appear to have directly addressed the question of what standard prosecutors must meet to obtain cell-site information as it occurs.

"There's no easy answer," Mr. Kerr said. "The law is pretty uncertain here."

Absent a Congressional directive, he said, it is reasonable for magistrates to require prosecutors to meet the probable-cause standard.

Mr. Fishman of Catholic University said that such a requirement could hamper law enforcement's ability to act quickly because of the paperwork required to show probable cause. But Mr. Fishman said he also believed that the current law was unclear on the issue.

Judge Smith "has written a very, very persuasive opinion," Mr. Fishman said. "The government's argument has been based on some tenuous premises." He added that he sympathized with prosecutors' fears.

"Something that they've been able to use quite successfully and usefully is being taken away from them or made harder to get," Mr. Fishman said. "I'd be very, very frustrated."
The Eliki
10-12-2005, 16:10
Mine's got a little thing that turns off the GPS locator except for 911 calls. But I could see how the government could go too far with it.
Hoos Bandoland
10-12-2005, 16:10
I hate cellphones, and would ban them altogether if given the power to do so, as I have in my nation of Hoos Bandoland. Everytime I see someone with a damned cellphone stuck in his ear while he should be driving, watching where he's walking, or simply paying some attention to the PEOPLE HE'S ACTUALLY WITH, I feel like shooting him! (or her, as the case may be) :sniper:
Teh_pantless_hero
10-12-2005, 16:11
This is kind of a given. I am more worried about them having the right to check library records, because what kind of policing tool is that? It is kind of obvious they can track you with your cellphone or GPS thing. For GPS, that is the point. Hell, they can see what kind of pants you are wearing if you go outside.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:11
Mine's got a little thing that turns off the GPS locator except for 911 calls. But I could see how the government could go too far with it.
It's my understanding that simply turning off the GPS funtion does not disabled the ability of the network providers to track the phone. As the article says, they can track the phone even when it's not in use.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:13
I hate cellphones, and would ban them altogether if given the power to do so, as I have in my nation of Hoos Bandoland. Everytime I see someone with a damned cellphone stuck in his ear while he should be driving, watching where he's walking, or simply paying some attention to the PEOPLE HE'S ACTUALLY WITH, I feel like shooting him! :sniper:
Interesting ancillary issue. I've climbed my ex's case several times after watching her weave all over the road while talking to someone on her cellphone. For all the good it did, I could have saved my breath. Sigh.

Some States have passed laws against using any sort of communication device while driving, but those are the exceptions.
The Eliki
10-12-2005, 16:13
Hell, they can see what kind of pants you are wearing if you go outside.That is my greatest fear.:eek: ;)

Actually, my greatest fear is that they can follow me around wherever I go, but whatever.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:14
This is kind of a given. I am more worried about them having the right to check library records, because what kind of policing tool is that? It is kind of obvious they can track you with your cellphone or GPS thing. For GPS, that is the point. Hell, they can see what kind of pants you are wearing if you go outside.
And if, like you, they don't wear pants??? :D

BTW ... I agree completely on the library records issue! I mean, WTF, over???
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:15
I don't see the problem with using mobiles to track people, if you're not anywhere you're not supposed to be then why the hell does it matter? If anything it makes me feel a little bit safer
Teh_pantless_hero
10-12-2005, 16:15
That is my greatest fear.:eek: ;)

Actually, my greatest fear is that they can follow me around wherever I go, but whatever.
They can - they use Jew waves. I have a tinfoil hat right here that protects against them...
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:16
I don't see the problem with using mobiles to track people, if you're not anywhere you're not supposed to be then why the hell does it matter? If anything it makes me feel a little bit safer
I understand. At a personal level, I feel much the same way. But I can also identify somewhat with those who feel that it infringes on their right to privacy. It's a conundrum. :(
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:17
They can - they use Jew waves. I have a tinfoil hat right here that protects against them...
[ looks at the ceiling and whistles softly to himself ] :D
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:17
I understand. At a personal level, I feel much the same way. But I can also identify somewhat with those who feel that it infringes on their right to privacy. It's a conundrum. :(
safety > privacy
Hoos Bandoland
10-12-2005, 16:20
And if, like you, they don't wear pants??? :D

BTW ... I agree completely on the library records issue! I mean, WTF, over???

I work for a library. I can't answer for libraries all over the country, but at mine, your records are completely confidential. That is, unless you're a library employee!
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:24
safety > privacy
Yes, most people feel that safety trumps privacy, which is why we have things like the Patriot Act, etc. But surely you can see why some say this is unacceptable, and a slippery slope toward governmental incursions into personal privacy?
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:24
I work for a library. I can't answer for libraries all over the country, but at mine, your records are completely confidential. That is, unless you're an employee!
We pwn j00! :D
Intangelon
10-12-2005, 16:25
safety > privacy

Very well, but is safety > liberty?
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:26
Yes, most people feel that safety trumps privacy, which is why we have things like the Patriot Act, etc. But surely you can see why some say this is unacceptable, and a slippery slope toward governmental incursions into personal privacy?
the people who say it is unacceptable are probably doing things they shouldn't be
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:28
Very well, but is safety > liberty?
ok, so the government know i'm in the library, does that really have any affect on my liberty?
Teh_pantless_hero
10-12-2005, 16:30
ok, so the government know i'm in the library, does that really have any affect on my liberty?
Yeah, because they can now go to that library and search through your library records, assuming you were American.
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:33
Yeah, because they can now go to that library and search through your library records, assuming you were American.
and oh noes i owe some money cause i have an overdue library book :rolleyes: i couldn't care less if they did cause there's nothing on my library records that says i've done anything wrong and if i had done something wrong then it would be better for everyone that the government knew about it
The Similized world
10-12-2005, 16:51
I work for a library. I can't answer for libraries all over the country, but at mine, your records are completely confidential. That is, unless you're a library employee!
That's not the case everywhere. These days, Denmark, otherwise an old bastion of civil liberties & individual rights, is in the process of eliminating the right to privacy altogether.

Already their libraries have spend fortunes implimenting easy tracking & surveilance of all internet traffic & public computeruse in general. I know because I happen to have a friend who helped develop one of the systems they're implimenting right now (I still don't understand why he didn't quit instead..).

But that was aparently only the beginning. Right now the Liberal/Conservative government in Denmark (they're a 'real' democracy, unlike the US) are trying to impliment an anti-terror law, based on ideas from the UK's anti-terror act & the US PATRIOT act.

The New & Improved© anti-terror law will allow the secret service to monitor both internet & cellphone activities of the citizens - without court orders & without informing any agency about it, what so ever. They'll be allowed to do it if 'they feel it may lead to something'. How's that for 'guilty untill proven innocent'? - But it's ofcourse worse than that. The real kicker is that the secret service will be allowed to monitor communication, not of just of individuals, but of entire city blocks.
So if you happen to live in a city in Denmark, and some radical leftwing anarchist or commie lives in your block, you better be careful what you say on here. Or if you're on the phone & someone cracks a joke about drugs in the background, don't be surprised if a bunch of coppers & dogs pay you a visit when you're trying to sleep it off Sunday morning.

But remember, it's all in the name of liberty.

I always wondered though.. How does video surveilance of public space discourage terrorism? - I'd have thought terrorists wanted their acts caught on video. Free promo & all that. Hell, I suspect most would be willing to pay for that kind of publicity.

... And I thought the UK was bad.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:54
the people who say it is unacceptable are probably doing things they shouldn't be
That's a pretty standard argument for those opposing extending the "right of privacy" in new directions, or even rolling it back. And it has some merit, IMHO. However, a degree of caution concerning government is not a bad thing. Governments have traditionally shown that trusting them completely is not a good idea.
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 16:55
I always wondered though.. How does video surveilance of public space discourage terrorism? - I'd have thought terrorists wanted their acts caught on video. Free promo & all that. Hell, I suspect most would be willing to pay for that kind of publicity.


as shocking as this might be to you, terrorism isn't the only crime going on in the world, cctv may not do much to discourage terrorism but it helps to catch murderers, rapists and burglars
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 16:57
ok, so the government know i'm in the library, does that really have any affect on my liberty?
Perhaps not immediately, but if you're reading "questionable" literature ( according to the standards of some governmental functionary ), you could wind up on someone's "watch list." If in future, you decide to oppose the approved governmental position on something, they consult the watch list, find your name, and survail you. Now you're being watched because you're a "potential agitator."

See what I mean about it being a slippery slope?
QuentinTarantino
10-12-2005, 17:00
We pwn j00! :D

Well done, you pwned a libarian
Intangelon
10-12-2005, 17:00
ok, so the government know i'm in the library, does that really have any affect on my liberty?

All right then, how's about this:

You went to the library and checked out or surfed online some information (books, Web sites, what have you) regarding a paper you're writing for a class. Perhaps you heard a story about nuclear terrorism and wanted to know just how easy it might be to assemble the needed components for a bomb. Perhaps you've heard so many news reports about radical Islam that you wanted some information about the subject so that you could make your own informed decision about it.

Well, a governmental search of your library records would reveal that you looked up information on nuclear bombs, terrorism and radical Islam. These are big red flags to those who are looking for tiny things that even remotely resemble red or flags. You are then tapped for surveillance, as are your phones and internet connection and watched like a hawk. Should you make contact with anyone else even remotely connected to a similar need for surveillance (which, given your massive presence of 14k posts on NationStates is a possibility), you could be brought in for questioning and held without benefit of lawyer or due process.

So the answer to your question is yes.
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 17:02
Perhaps not immediately, but if you're reading "questionable" literature ( according to the standards of some governmental functionary ), you could wind up on someone's "watch list." If in future, you decide to oppose the approved governmental position on something, they consult the watch list, find your name, and survail you. Now you're being watched because you're a "potential agitator."

See what I mean about it being a slippery slope?
and i'd deserve it, if someone was reading "questionable" material I would be a lot happier knowing they were on someone's "watch list"
Ashmoria
10-12-2005, 17:03
hey eutrusca

how did the ex's birthday go?
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:03
Well done, you pwned a libarian
ROFLMAO!!! KEWL! But ... I was talking about the government, not me you goof! :p
Intangelon
10-12-2005, 17:04
and i'd deserve it, if someone was reading "questionable" material I would be a lot happier knowing they were on someone's "watch list"

Good grief!

Okay, then -- just WHO defines what is or is not "questionable"? What agenda, hidden or otherwise, does this WHO have?
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:04
and i'd deserve it, if someone was reading "questionable" material I would be a lot happier knowing they were on someone's "watch list"
So who decides what constitutes "questionable material?" Hmm?
Intangelon
10-12-2005, 17:05
So who decides what constitutes "questionable material?" Hmm?

Great minds think alike, if if they usually don't agree. Good one, Eutrusca.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:05
hey eutrusca

how did the ex's birthday go?
[ does best "dirty old man" imitation laugh ] Heh! Heh! Heh! :D
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:06
Great minds think alike, if if they usually don't agree. Good one, Eutrusca.
Shhhh! They'll think I always agree with you! Tsk! :D
Intangelon
10-12-2005, 17:07
Shhhh! They'll think I always agree with you! Tsk! :D

Whoops, my bad. Sorry...uh...yeah! Dammit, Eutrusca, I hate you and everything you stand for!

Better?

Heh.

:D
The Similized world
10-12-2005, 17:08
as shocking as this might be to you, terrorism isn't the only crime going on in the world, cctv may not do much to discourage terrorism but it helps to catch murderers, rapists and burglars
Perhaps. However, that's not why Denmark will start doing it next year. Besides, video surveilance doesn't stop crime. At most, it disperses crime, possibly complicating crime-solving.

And Denmark is a minute & extremely wealthy country, with an (by global standarts) extreme degree of social coherency. Crimerates are about as low as they can concievably be in a human society. And the police solves almost 100% of all violent crime, from barfights & street-muggings, to rape & murder.

As it is, I haven't heard anyone claim that crime rates will drop or that more crimes will be solved after the new surveilance terror law.
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 17:10
All right then, how's about this:

You went to the library and checked out or surfed online some information (books, Web sites, what have you) regarding a paper you're writing for a class. Perhaps you heard a story about nuclear terrorism and wanted to know just how easy it might be to assemble the needed components for a bomb. Perhaps you've heard so many news reports about radical Islam that you wanted some information about the subject so that you could make your own informed decision about it.

Well, a governmental search of your library records would reveal that you looked up information on nuclear bombs, terrorism and radical Islam. These are big red flags to those who are looking for tiny things that even remotely resemble red or flags. You are then tapped for surveillance, as are your phones and internet connection and watched like a hawk. Should you make contact with anyone else even remotely connected to a similar need for surveillance (which, given your massive presence of 14k posts on NationStates is a possibility), you could be brought in for questioning and held without benefit of lawyer or due process.

So the answer to your question is yes.
i'd also have the paper that i'd been writing on nuclear bombs, terrorism and radical Islam and lecturers and other students all to prove that i was in fact just doing research for an essay (plus that's getting onto the whole other issue of people being able to be held without benefit of a lawyer or due process).

If there's some person out there learning about how to make bombs and reading up on terrorism and radical Islam I would be much happier knowing that government knew about it and would be able to question them as to why they're researching it
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 17:15
Good grief!

Okay, then -- just WHO defines what is or is not "questionable"? What agenda, hidden or otherwise, does this WHO have?
the government does with the agenda to protect people
The Similized world
10-12-2005, 17:20
i'd also have the paper that i'd been writing on nuclear bombs, terrorism and radical Islam and lecturers and other students all to prove that i was in fact just doing research for an essay (plus that's getting onto the whole other issue of people being able to be held without benefit of a lawyer or due process). I've looked up that info. I don't have any papers to show for it, or any other great excuse, however unbelievable excuses are when presented to a bunch of people who suspect you of being a terrorist.

Why did I do it then? It's none of your concern hon. I'll read about anything I want, thank you.

If there's some person out there learning about how to make bombs and reading up on terrorism and radical Islam I would be much happier knowing that government knew about it and would be able to question them as to why they're researching itWhy? How do you justify rummaging through someone's private communication just because they've read something? You're advocating the thought police.

There are millions of reasons why people will seek out information you might feel is dangerous or questionable. The fact that you feel the information is dangerous or questionable is a reason for checking it out.

What gives anyone the right to impact what information people access? You do realize that most people want their emails, phone conversations, library records, and online porn consumption to remain private, right? So 'flagging' certain information is essentially the same as saying "I decide what you can know. Do as I say, or else!".
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:21
Whoops, my bad. Sorry...uh...yeah! Dammit, Eutrusca, I hate you and everything you stand for!

Better?

Heh.

:D
[ breathes a huge sigh of relief! ] Whew! I was worried there for a moment! :D
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:23
the government does with the agenda to protect people
Sorry, Tink, but I don't trust ANY goverment that far. Some of the actions of the current Administration in the US have served to strengthen my inherent mistrust of government. Too many things can be hidden. Too many things can be finessed.
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 17:28
I've looked up that info. I don't have any papers to show for it, or any other great excuse, however unbelievable excuses are when presented to a bunch of people who suspect you of being a terrorist.

Why did I do it then? It's none of your concern hon. I'll read about anything I want, thank you.

Why? How do you justify rummaging through someone's private communication just because they've read something? You're advocating the thought police.
because it seems like a much more desirable situation than me and my family sprawled across the floor bleeding to death because some idiot who read some stuff on radical Islam decided to set off a bomb

There are millions of reasons why people will seek out information you might feel is dangerous or questionable. The fact that you feel the information is dangerous or questionable is a reason for checking it out.

What gives anyone the right to impact what information people access? You do realize that most people want their emails, phone conversations, library records, and online porn consumption to remain private, right? So 'flagging' certain information is essentially the same as saying "I decide what you can know. Do as I say, or else!".
the government aren't going to trace every single person in the country, read every single email that is sent or listen to every phone conversation that goes on, they'll do it to people who are looking at or doing suspicious things
FairyTInkArisen
10-12-2005, 17:30
Sorry, Tink, but I don't trust ANY goverment that far. Some of the actions of the current Administration in the US have served to strengthen my inherent mistrust of government. Too many things can be hidden. Too many things can be finessed.
why not? they're hardly going to say 'OMG you googled fluffy kittens, that constitutes as questionable material'
Sel Appa
10-12-2005, 17:36
I hate cellphones, and would ban them altogether if given the power to do so, as I have in my nation of Hoos Bandoland. Everytime I see someone with a damned cellphone stuck in his ear while he should be driving, watching where he's walking, or simply paying some attention to the PEOPLE HE'S ACTUALLY WITH, I feel like shooting him! (or her, as the case may be) :sniper:
You are my new best friend.

As Judge Smith noted in his 31-page opinion
Why the hell would someone write an opinion that long? I know they have to, but still and he didn't even write it either. Some secretaries did.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 17:43
why not? they're hardly going to say 'OMG you googled fluffy kittens, that constitutes as questionable material'
Ah! But what if I read a lot of literature about communism and revolution and related issues? Even if I'm only doing a research project for a paper of some sort, that could easily be considered "questionable material" by some paranoid government functionary. Stranger things have happened, hon.

One of the very first things I remember seeing on TV, other than the usual run of childhood programming, was the Army-McCarthy hearings. :eek:
DrunkenDove
10-12-2005, 17:57
It's my understanding that simply turning off the GPS funtion does not disabled the ability of the network providers to track the phone. As the article says, they can track the phone even when it's not in use.

You are correct. They discover your location by cross-referencing the logs on several towers. The higher the number of tower in your area the more accurate the trace.

Also, the CIA, police and FBI do have caller ID. If you ring them up and hang up a few seconds later, they will ring you back and continue the trace, regardless of what movies have told you.
The Similized world
10-12-2005, 18:00
because it seems like a much more desirable situation than me and my family sprawled across the floor bleeding to death because some idiot who read some stuff on radical Islam decided to set off a bombYea. I see where you're comming from. I don't want scores of random people to die horribly either. So let's outlaw drivers - not cars - right now. Compared to drivers, religious terrorism is a fraction of a fraction of a drop in the mother of all oceans.

In fact, let's outlaw or monitor all things that can possibly be dangerous. Christianity often spawns murder, as do marriage, civil unions, international news, electricity bills (ok, that mostly result in people stealing), postal services (ever hear of the guy that went postal?), swimmingpools, dog owners... There's hardly anything on this planet that can't potentially kill you. Why does certain information warrent surveilance? Do we not have the freedom to seek out whatever information we want, without fear of reprecussion?the government aren't going to trace every single person in the country, read every single email that is sent or listen to every phone conversation that goes on, they'll do it to people who are looking at or doing suspicious thingsOf course not. However, political radicals are gonna be targets of surveilance. I am one such person. I don't engage in political terrorism of any kind though. So why is it you feel that a bunch of strangers should go through my personal communication? Should I be reading your emails & listening to your phone conversations as well? - By my standarts, you're just as extreme as I am by yours.
Pure Metal
10-12-2005, 18:19
COMMENTARY: I believe that, while somewhat contrived, the right to privacy is essentially an important right. Yet, with technology racing into this area at breakneck speed, if you use cellphones, GPS devices, etc., your location, time at each location, etc., is easily accessible to governmental agencies. Does the government's need to be able to track terrorists, drug dealers and other criminals ( or potential criminals - a worrisome thought! ) trump the "right to privacy?" It's a conundrum unique to our age."[/B]
its not just government. comet (electrical store) down the road is selling a locator kit that tracks someone's movements by their mobile phone for just 30 quid.

i think its not just government we have the right to privacy from. the private sector will find a way to bastardise this technology and invade our lives further... you wait and see.

if anything i feel that security agencies have a right to this information - more right than anyone else at least.
then again, i don't 'fear' the government as some people do...
DrunkenDove
10-12-2005, 18:28
then again, i don't 'fear' the government as some people do...

Thats an odd thing for a pot smoker to say.
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 18:35
Thats an odd thing for a pot smoker to say.
ROFLMAO!

I don't "fear" the government either, but keeping a somewhat jaundiced eye on it has always been a wise thing to do. History is rife with examples of government gone wild.
Sarzonia
10-12-2005, 18:42
I'm very angry that Congress has chosen to continue the Patriot Act. For me, civil rights trumps "security." Benjamin Franklin once said to the effect that people who would give up their liberty for security deserve neither. That's how I feel about it.

They can track your cell phone even if it's not in use? Whisky. Tango. Foxtrot!
Eutrusca
10-12-2005, 18:53
I'm very angry that Congress has chosen to continue the Patriot Act. For me, civil rights trumps "security." Benjamin Franklin once said to the effect that people who would give up their liberty for security deserve neither. That's how I feel about it.

They can track your cell phone even if it's not in use? Whisky. Tango. Foxtrot!
Most people, particularly those who have known nothing but "safety" for their entire lives, are not equipped to handle having that safety threatened, at least at first. The danger is that the unscrupulous and cynical will play on those fears and use them to their own advantage. Those who manage to keep their wits about themselves must help forge a middle way between overreacting to fear and underreacting to threats. As with most things involving government, it's a delicate balancing act.
DrunkenDove
10-12-2005, 18:57
They can track your cell phone even if it's not in use? Whisky. Tango. Foxtrot!

When ever your phone comes within range of a tower, the phone sends a ID to that tower, which is logged and sent on to a central computer. When some one rings you, the computer sends thier signal to all towers in range of you, which send it on to you.

Therefore, if you are only logged on to one tower, then you must be within the range of that tower. If you are logged on to three towers, then you're in the overlap of the three towers:

http://www.stingertoons.com/graphics/008.gif

And so on. Each extra tower decreases the amount of area that you might be in. In urban area you may be within the range of over fifteen towers, which lets you be tracked to the metre.