NationStates Jolt Archive

Basically, in my area, there is pretty much a ban in public schools for any sort of christmas-realted display (Candy canes, trees, lights, the whole shabangabang) and it got me thinking. I know this is a measurment by liberals to excentuate the "seperation of church and state" I am a christian myself, and I beleive that I should be able to partake in my celebrations. However, I understand that not nearly everyone thinks as I do, and many people simply want Christmas out of public school. In my opinion, the school is state sanctioned, state sustained, and state regulated. Therefore, the state makes the rules. But are they going to far? You cannot even say "Christmas" or mention the birth of christ, without it being seen in bad taste.

Everyone has thier own beliefs, but I think that religion should not be ousted from public schools, but embraced. Other than adopting the states ideals of denial of thier exsistance, we embrace individual ideals. Kwanza, christmas, Ramadan should all be allowed, and everyone must tolerate these celebrations. However, in no circumstance are they supposed or obligated to accept them. They can choose to plug their ears as the jewish kids play "Hatikvah" in the hallways, and the Muslim kids could wear blindfolds as the christian kids erect a set of the scene of Christs birth. OOC: NOT THIS EXTREME, BUT YOU CATCH MY DRIFT.;)

All in all, my idea is of manditory tollerance, and optional acceptance. How do you feel about the division of Church and state (with whatever religion you may embrace)

Personal statements and displays of belief are perfectly fine as long as they do not hinder the other students' education.

Personal statements and displays of belief are perfectly fine as long as they do not hinder the other students' education.
If it doesn't hurt other people in some way, I really fail to see the point.

I'll try to give you the view of a reasonable atheist (thought not a lefty (nor a righty)). The right to free speech is more important than the separation of church and state. The right to free speech is more important than the right not to be offended.

Say "Merry Christmas" all you want. I don't mind, provided you don't mind when I reply, "get away from me, freak."

Display your ten commandments. As long as state-funded institutions are not specifically endorsing Christianity, I don't care. However, if stars of David or monolithic calendars or Swastikas or pentagrams are denied the privilege to be displayed beside them, then I will object.

EDIT: scratch that , very run on

I'll just say this: If you want to make allusions to christ, the nativity etc. you better be in a christian school.
Everywherew else, at least try to have some attempt at a more secular display: Wreaths, garlands, mistletoe etc.

Screw that, I'm Muslim and I wanna see "Merry Christmas" signs everywhere like there was when I was younger (I think...)!

So long as you don't go running around telling me to embrace the so-called "Son of God", it's all good.

I'll try to give you the view of a reasonable atheist (thought not a lefty (nor a righty)). The right to free speech is more important than the separation of church and state. The right to free speech is more important than the right not to be offended.

Say "Merry Christmas" all you want. I don't mind, provided you don't mind when I reply, "get away from me, freak."

Display your ten commandments. As long as state-funded institutions are not specifically endorsing Christianity, I don't care. However, if stars of David or monolithic calendars or Swastikas or pentagrams are denied the privilege to be displayed beside them, then I will object.


"Get away from me, freak" when used improperly, would be considered insulting, "unlike merry christmas," therefore the two statements very off the subject. The topic is should church and state be seperated further, or should intergration measures be taken?

Also, what is it with people claiming all liberals are launching a "war on christmas"? All I think most liberals and non-christians want, being a member of both groups, is a little respect for other traditions. Therefore, it isn't nice to put up MERRY CHRISTMAS signs if not everyone celebrates it. Now, if you have a christmas tree on the hill, that's fine because there is no such thing as a Hannukah, Kwanzaa or Dewali tree. But it is important to remember we aren't all christians.


What about those people who don't celebrate birthdays? ;) Should we not put up ''Happy Birthday *insert name*!" signs either out of respect for them?

What about for the Fourth of July? Only US citizens celebrate that.

It is important to remember we're not all Christians, but let's face it, not everyone's everything else either. In the name of free expression, people should be allowed to say ''Happy Hannukah'' or, uh, whatever people of the Islamic faith say during Ramadan, and put up signs for it and such; Christians should be allowed to put up 'Merry Christmas' stuff too.

EDIT: scratch that , very run on

I'll just say this: If you want to make allusions to christ, the nativity etc. you better be in a christian school.
Everywherew else, at least try to have some attempt at a more secular display: Wreaths, garlands, mistletoe etc.


In truth, thousands of chrisitan children do not have acces to private schools whether it is distance, fee, or simply absence. In a since why should they? Why should they have to settle for seccular values? I agree with you, that the outright banning of things like misletoe and wreaths is going to far, but that stuff, does not have any religous value to it. Therefore, that would defeat the purpose of my opinion. Why settle for non religous valued items, and deprive oneself, of their right to religous freedom?

Quite frankly, I agree... public schools shouldn't be boring and dry during the holidays (Christmas, Chanukah, Yule ect.) however, due to Christianity’s... let's say "aggressive" approach to conversion... anything remotely Christian will be seen as an attempt to...covert people and atheists seem to HATE that...

and more then likely they protest and protest, until they get their way, or Carl rove use his demonic p-uh...amazing ability to unite Christians to save Christmas...

What about those people who don't celebrate birthdays? ;) Should we not put up ''Happy Birthday *insert name*!" signs either out of respect for them?

What about for the Fourth of July? Only US citizens celebrate that.

It is important to remember we're not all Christians, but let's face it, not everyone's everything else either. In the name of free expression, people should be allowed to say ''Happy Hannukah'' or, uh, whatever people of the Islamic faith say during Ramadan, and put up signs for it and such; Christians should be allowed to put up 'Merry Christmas' stuff too.


Exactly! I do not belive the liberals are launching a "war" as you put it, but simply, they are the general driving force behind this movement. Christians should be allowed to say "merry christmas" and his jewish neighbor "Happy Hannukah" I think that non-christians in general, simply dislike the majority, (christian-catholic) because they have been so free in these traditions as long as one can remmember. I suggest people of the Jewish, Islamic, or perhaps even the atheist belief, instead of campanging to end the christians right to celebrate a holiday, they should be investing time and energy in developing new ways of displaying their own faith to the general community.

this afternoon i drove a truckload of supplies to the frontlines of the war on christmas. it's hell out there, boys. blown up reindeer parts everywhere, baby jesuses roasting on open fires, civillians keeping their heads down trying to avoid a white phosphorus christmas, crazed fundies screaming 'yahweh akbar' before blowing themselves up in shopping malls. but one day we will be victorious against the enemy who think the winter festival ever had any connection to their silly god.

myself, i'm gonna get me a star and crescent to go on top of my festivus pole.

"Get away from me, freak" when used improperly, would be considered insulting, "unlike merry christmas," therefore the two statements very off the subject.
That is your subjective opinion.

Consider the following situation. I shoot a Jew. I say, "Merry Christmas." Appropriate or not?

O.K. Maybe that one's too obvious. Try this one. I quote Leviticus 20:13. I say, "Merry Christmas." Appropriate or not?

Perhaps you're thinking, "but those fags really should be put to death." Here's another. You point out that I'm going to hell and will endure eternal torture. You say, "Merry Christmas."

Yes, these examples are exaggerated. You may think they're absurd. However, these are the first things that come to mind when some people hear the word "Christ". Reminding them is no different than saying, "get away from me, freak."

It's all a matter of perspective. There are no shades of grey when it comes to free speech.

Schools can be just as cheery, from personal experience, with secular decorations. It isn't opressive if the decorations don't endorse one religion, in fact it is better in the end. If everyone was allowed to put up their own religious symbols, it would be quite devisive in the closed environment of a school. When everyone feels included, everyone gets along better.

Quite frankly, I agree... public schools shouldn't be boring and dry during the holidays (Christmas, Chanukah, Yule ect.) however, due to Christianity’s... let's say "aggressive" approach to conversion... anything remotely Christian will be seen as an attempt to...covert people and atheists seem to HATE that...

and more then likely they protest and protest, until they get their way, or Carl rove use his demonic p-uh...amazing ability to unite Christians to save Christmas...


"Agressive approach to conversion?" True, a key principal of christianity is to enlighten your neighbor to the "word of the gospel" but this is NOT a mass attempt of conversion by the chrisitians. Atheists in the 1700's, in europe, would be arrested for supporting such beliefs. 300 years later, things work ALOT differntly. Christians won't "protest and protest" to get thier way (as leftist and non-christians have been doing for the past 40 years) but simply defend and outline thier right to tradition.

In truth, thousands of chrisitan children do not have acces to private schools whether it is distance, fee, or simply absence. In a since why should they? Why should they have to settle for seccular values? I agree with you, that the outright banning of things like misletoe and wreaths is going to far, but that stuff, does not have any religous value to it. Therefore, that would defeat the purpose of my opinion. Why settle for non religous valued items, and deprive oneself, of their right to religous freedom?
It isn't DEPRIVING oneself of religious freedom. It is simply accepting other groups and not making them feel overwhelmed in the public sphere. In private, of course, decorate however the hell you want.

Also, remember that in many schools it is the staff who decorate. How will teachers and the like releagate the task of finding a decoration for EVERY religion's holiday. It's easier to simply get something no one can feel left out by, and is non-offensive unless you're allergic to pine needles.

this afternoon i drove a truckload of supplies to the frontlines of the war on christmas. it's hell out there, boys. blown up reindeer parts everywhere, baby jesuses roasting on open fires, civillians keeping their heads down trying to avoid a white phosphorus christmas, crazed fundies screaming 'yahweh akbar' before blowing themselves up in shopping malls. but one day we will be victorious against the enemy who think the winter festival ever had any connection to their silly god.

myself, i'm gonna get me a star and crescent to go on top of my festivus pole.


OOC: yea..... have fun with that.

Christians won't "protest and protest" to get thier way but simply defend and outline thier right to tradition.
Cough endingseperationofchurchandstate cough banningabortion cough banninggaymarriage cough intelligentdesign cough

Honestly, EVERYONE protests, and if you think christians don't do the same you 're being biased.

That is your subjective opinion.

Consider the following situation. I shoot a Jew. I say, "Merry Christmas." Appropriate or not?

O.K. Maybe that one's too obvious. Try this one. I quote Leviticus 20:13. I say, "Merry Christmas." Appropriate or not?

Perhaps you're thinking, "but those fags really should be put to death." Here's another. You point out that I'm going to hell and will endure eternal torture. You say, "Merry Christmas."

Yes, these examples are exaggerated. You may think they're absurd. However, these are the first things that come to mind when some people hear the word "Christ". Reminding them is no different than saying, "get away from me, freak."

It's all a matter of perspective. There are no shades of grey when it comes to free speech.


No, I actually don't see myself walking up to a native american, saying "Christ be with you my son" and see him bend over to take his whipping as I read out of the bible. Ill say "christ." It is not a profanity (legally) I personally don't give a damn what it reminds them of. If I stepped on a 3 1/2 inch rusty nail on Hanukah, and a Jew greeted me on the holiday season, I wouldn't scream like a monkey and slap him, but remmember that expierience. It is personal interpertation in the end, lacking general opinion. Free speech includes religion! Why should I let you come up to me and say "a women has a right to choose for abortion!" or "what's wrong with the marrige of two gay men?" If those are OK for you to say, i'm going to say something on behalf of my belief, which is religious.

Cough endingseperationofchurchandstate cough banningabortion cough banninggaymarriage cough intelligentdesign cough

Honestly, EVERYONE protests, and if you think christians don't do the same you 're being biased.

You know, I've actually heard more Christians holding to maintaining separation of church and state, given the disastrous lessons history has taught us about state control of religion. Not to mention that the religion in power doesn't always benefit from the increased status in a healthy way; often it may grow corrupt.

Christians won't "protest and protest" to get thier way

so those nuns at all the anti-war protests i've been to were just tourists?

No, I actually don't see myself walking up to a native american, saying "Christ be with you my son" and see him bend over to take his whipping as I read out of the bible. Ill say "christ." It is not a profanity (legally) I personally don't give a damn what it reminds them of. If I stepped on a 3 1/2 inch rusty nail on Hanukah, and a Jew greeted me on the holiday season, I wouldn't scream like a monkey and slap him, but remmember that expierience. It is personal interpertation in the end, lacking general opinion. Free speech includes religion! Why should I let you come up to me and say "a women has a right to choose for abortion!" or "what's wrong with the marrige of two gay men?" If those are OK for you to say, i'm going to say something on behalf of my belief, which is religious.

Good. Now we're on the same page. Go read my first post again. Say "Merry Christmas" all you want. Don't be bothered if I tell you to "go to hell." Display your ten commandments. Don't be bothered if I display a Swastika.

Why should secular decorations be used exclusively? I see the purpose of them being completely neutral, but aren't all modern holiday traditions based on age old religious ones (be they jewish or christian)? After all the world "holiday" breaks down to "holy+day". In my opinion, if you want to be exclusively secular and force everyone else to do the same, invent your own "non-denominational-day-reserved-for-non-specific-non-offensive-politically-correct-celebration."

Why should secular decorations be used exclusively? I see the purpose of them being completely neutral, but aren't all modern holiday traditions based on age old religious ones (be they jewish or christian)? After all the world "holiday" breaks down to "holy+day". In my opinion, if you want to be exclusively secular and force everyone else to do the same, invent your own "non-denominational-day-reserved-for-non-specific-non-offensive-politically-correct-celebration."

:cool:
[Marge Simpson] "Happy Love Day, everyone!!!" [/Marge Simpson]

Cough endingseperationofchurchandstate cough banningabortion cough banninggaymarriage cough intelligentdesign cough

Honestly, EVERYONE protests, and if you think christians don't do the same you 're being biased.


EVERYONE will protest. But isn't the purpose of protest to achieve something that was foramally deprived? If the christians protes, get what they want, they have no reason to continue (I would be content) It is then the Jewish (example) religions resonsability to gain what they want in protest.

cough massacareofunbornchildren cough statecontrolledindustry cough cough unfairtaxationtopayforineffectivesocialbenefit cough cough redflaginfronofthewhitehouse man I gotta take some tylenoyl. :rolleyes:

As a non-Christian, I am offended when teachers refer to the "Christmas Break," or set up obviously christian displays of decorations. It also offends me when I am aussumed to be a Christian. However, other students exchanging gifts or wishing eachother a merry christmas does not bother me, as it is not any of my business.

Good. Now we're on the same page. Go read my first post again. Say "Merry Christmas" all you want. Don't be bothered if I tell you to "go to hell." Display your ten commandments. Don't be bothered if I display a Swastika.


Be my guest, show the swastika. I mean, christinity and national socialism is quite the same. Chrisitians would represent compassion towards man, love towards all, and you, would represent hatred toward innocent people and mass murder justified by an insane idealology. But hey, you can take being one who supports that, than okay.

Be my guest, show the swastika. I mean, christinity and national socialism is quite the same. Chrisitians would represent compassion towards man, love towards all, and you, would represent hatred toward innocent people and mass murder justified by an insane idealology. But hey, you can take being one who supports that, than okay.
Do I need to get out the bible verses?

As a non-Christian, I am offended when teachers refer to the "Christmas Break," or set up obviously christian displays of decorations. It also offends me when I am aussumed to be a Christian. However, other students exchanging gifts or wishing eachother a merry christmas does not bother me, as it is not any of my business.


So you don;t like it being called "christmas break" but you are fine with "merry christmas" You are assumed to be christian. very insulting. I would feel the same being assumed atheist. The fact is, you have to tolerate however much the state allows christmas to be displayed, but you dont have to accept that.

If it doesn't hurt other people in some way, I really fail to see the point.

Merry Christmas = If you are a Christian I wish you a happy celebration of the birth of your Lord (which did not take place anywhere near december - but who cares ?)
Happy holidays = I wish you happy holidays, regardless of what you celebrate.

Since december is filled with different holidays for different religions I would think the second one is *much* more open and tolerant than the first.

My view on the "War on Christmas", as one who would be a frontline soldier (atheist, pro seperation-of-church-and-state, and liberal): Dude, I don't bloody care. If I say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", I'm not actively trying to depose the latter; I'm just expressing a sentiment of goodwill that applies to people who don't celebrate Christmas and that also includes the New Year. I accept "God bless you" as a gesture of genuine good will; as such, it hardly seems unfair to ask you to take "Happy Holidays" the same way.

If government agencies are overreacting to any Christmas symbols on their grounds, for fear of lawsuits (something my school isn't guilty of- seems we're not on the frontline of this war), it's due to percieved threat from lawsuits, rather than actual threat.

Most liberals I know don't care about what holiday decorations are displayed- they just want to enjoy the holidays (*gasp* I just assaulted Christmas!) like everyone else. This poll is hardly scientific, but here goes: A liberal forum's poll on Christmas decorations (http://lupinia.us/ireadthis/viewtopic.php?t=970). Ignore the one outlier- that person was screwing around.

For my further thoughts, read that thread; I go by Deflare on that forum. I'm the leopard with a Santa hat.

On seperation of church and state: I took that to mean RELIGION interfering with the STATE, in addition to the state interfering with religion. Iran, Mauritania, Egypt, and Syria are having rather bad experiences with that, as did Spain back in the days of the Inquisition.

Merry Christmas = If you are a Christian I wish you a happy celebration of the birth of your Lord (which did not take place anywhere near december - but who cares ?)
Happy holidays = I wish you happy holidays, regardless of what you celebrate.

Since december is filled with different holidays for different religions I would think the second one is *much* more open and tolerant than the first.

That's how I say it. That's not what it means. Merry christmas= ....merry christmas. Lets look at it again. MERRY CHRISTMAS[FONT="Arial"]okay, hmmmmm. Ya know, i;m only seeing two words. hmm, lets try it a few more times.....

[FONT="Arial Narrow"]MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS

In conlusion, I think it means, uhh, ya know what alex, im gonna go for "Merry christmas" for 500$?

OOC: By the way, Merry Christmas ;)

So you don;t like it being called "christmas break" but you are fine with "merry christmas" You are assumed to be christian. very insulting. I would feel the same being assumed atheist. The fact is, you have to tolerate however much the state allows christmas to be displayed, but you dont have to accept that.
Sweet crap, you get the two weeks off of school, the federal holiday and a consumer buying frenzy. What more do you want?

So you don;t like it being called "christmas break" but you are fine with "merry christmas" You are assumed to be christian. very insulting. I would feel the same being assumed atheist. The fact is, you have to tolerate however much the state allows christmas to be displayed, but you dont have to accept that.

I'm fine when others say "Merry Christmas" to eachother. Not when people say it to me. And yes, in some respects, it is insulting to be assumed to be a Christian. Not because I think Christians are bad people, but because I disagree with the fundamental teachings of the Christian church. And nobody has to be assumed aethiest. Nobody has to be assumed anything. And no, I do not feel that I must accept the state's support of Christmas. As a Canadian, I feel that Canada owes it to me to represent all people of the nation, including the millions who are of faiths outside of Christianity.

Be my guest, show the swastika. I mean, christinity and national socialism is quite the same. Chrisitians would represent compassion towards man, love towards all, and you, would represent hatred toward innocent people and mass murder justified by an insane idealology. But hey, you can take being one who supports that, than okay.

but no, wait! isn't the swastika ACTUALLY a hindu peace symbol? let's all be friends. False dichotomies never helped anyone...

My view on the "War on Christmas", as one who would be a frontline soldier (atheist, pro seperation-of-church-and-state, and liberal): Dude, I don't bloody care. If I say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", I'm not actively trying to depose the latter; I'm just expressing a sentiment of goodwill that applies to people who don't celebrate Christmas and that also includes the New Year. I accept "God bless you" as a gesture of genuine good will; as such, it hardly seems unfair to ask you to take "Happy Holidays" the same way.

If government agencies are overreacting to any Christmas symbols on their grounds, for fear of lawsuits (something my school isn't guilty of- seems we're not on the frontline of this war), it's due to percieved threat from lawsuits, rather than actual threat.

Most liberals I know don't care about what holiday decorations are displayed- they just want to enjoy the holidays (*gasp* I just assaulted Christmas!) like everyone else. This poll is hardly scientific, but here goes: A liberal forum's poll on Christmas decorations (http://lupinia.us/ireadthis/viewtopic.php?t=970). Ignore the one outlier- that person was screwing around.

For my further thoughts, read that thread; I go by Deflare on that forum. I'm the leopard with a Santa hat.

On seperation of church and state: I took that to mean RELIGION interfering with the STATE, in addition to the state interfering with religion. Iran, Mauritania, Egypt, and Syria are having rather bad experiences with that, as did Spain back in the days of the Inquisition.


But you epressed that sentiment how YOU wanted to. You were ablt to do what you wanted. I tolerated it. Merry Christmas. :D

Sweet crap, you get the two weeks off of school, the federal holiday and a consumer buying frenzy. What more do you want?

Respect.

That's how I say it. That's not what it means. Merry christmas= ....merry christmas. Lets look at it again. [FONT="Book Antiqua"]MERRY CHRISTMAS[FONT="Arial"]okay, hmmmmm. Ya know, i;m only seeing two words. hmm, lets try it a few more times.....

And what do you mean when you say "Christmas" ;) ?

I don't care if there are "Merry Christmas" signs everywhere as long as I'm not getting staked for blurting out "Happy Saturnalia" or "Happy Winter Solstice" in return.

I say we celebrate everything rather than nothing.

And why can't "merry christmas" mean "enjoy to celebration of our lord" to christians and "happy love day" to everyone else. it is a warm wish to someone. cant it just be accepted as such. if i want to wish someone well, i shouldnt have to look them and think "okay, they're black, so should i say quanza??????"

at work a man wearing a yamacha (or however you spell it, sorry to any jewish people out there) wished me a happy hannukah. i replied "merry christmas" with a smile. he smiled too. im not forcing a religion on him, im wishing him a pleasant day (in wintertime and traditional celebration season) in my own way.

I'll try to give you the view of a reasonable atheist (thought not a lefty (nor a righty)). The right to free speech is more important than the separation of church and state. The right to free speech is more important than the right not to be offended.

Say "Merry Christmas" all you want. I don't mind, provided you don't mind when I reply, "get away from me, freak."

Display your ten commandments. As long as state-funded institutions are not specifically endorsing Christianity, I don't care. However, if stars of David or monolithic calendars or Swastikas or pentagrams are denied the privilege to be displayed beside them, then I will object.

i agree

And why can't "merry christmas" mean "enjoy to celebration of our lord" to christians and "happy love day" to everyone else.

Because it is named "Christs Mas" ;) What you say is exactly what the people are trying to do with happy holidays: enjoyment for all, no matter how you celebrate.

Of course, they should have picked a more inspiring word than the dull and bland "holiday" - especially since that sounds so much like "holy day"...

Respect.
Reading your other post, I don't think you understood at whom that was directed...

Because it is named "Christs Mas" ;) What you say is exactly what the people are trying to do with happy holidays: enjoyment for all, no matter how you celebrate.

Of course, they should have picked a more inspiring word than the dull and bland "holiday".

A good point. Hmmm... "Joyous Festivals"? "Wonderous Gala"? Any other suggestions?

Basically, in my area, there is pretty much a ban in public schools for any sort of christmas-realted display (Candy canes, trees, lights, the whole shabangabang) and it got me thinking. I know this is a measurment by liberals to excentuate the "seperation of church and state" I am a christian myself, and I beleive that I should be able to partake in my celebrations. However, I understand that not nearly everyone thinks as I do, and many people simply want Christmas out of public school. In my opinion, the school is state sanctioned, state sustained, and state regulated. Therefore, the state makes the rules. But are they going to far? You cannot even say "Christmas" or mention the birth of christ, without it being seen in bad taste.

Everyone has thier own beliefs, but I think that religion should not be ousted from public schools, but embraced. Other than adopting the states ideals of denial of thier exsistance, we embrace individual ideals. Kwanza, christmas, Ramadan should all be allowed, and everyone must tolerate these celebrations. However, in no circumstance are they supposed or obligated to accept them. They can choose to plug their ears as the jewish kids play "Hatikvah" in the hallways, and the Muslim kids could wear blindfolds as the christian kids erect a set of the scene of Christs birth. OOC: NOT THIS EXTREME, BUT YOU CATCH MY DRIFT.;)

All in all, my idea is of manditory tollerance, and optional acceptance. How do you feel about the division of Church and state (with whatever religion you may embrace)


Personally, I think that it is stupid how saying Merry Christmas is banned in public schools, even though it is aginst certain peoples religions, i think it should not be banned, because all rteligions display their own feelings in their own way, so sayin Merry Christmas doesn;t even do anything because you can even say HAppy Hannakuh or Happy Kwanza if we wanted to

And why can't "merry christmas" mean "enjoy to celebration of our lord" to christians and "happy love day" to everyone else. it is a warm wish to someone. cant it just be accepted as such. if i want to wish someone well, i shouldnt have to look them and think "okay, they're black, so should i say quanza??????"

at work a man wearing a yamacha (or however you spell it, sorry to any jewish people out there) wished me a happy hannukah. i replied "merry christmas" with a smile. he smiled too. im not forcing a religion on him, im wishing him a pleasant day (in wintertime and traditional celebration season) in my own way.

Kwanzaa. And yalmake.
Merry Christmas means "Happy Birth of Christ." Guess what? I don't fricking care when Jesus was born. You can care if you want, but you can't expect me to be happy when someone says "Merry Christmas." And with "Happy Holidays," the beautiful thing is that assumptions aren't made. One doesn't need to cycle through several greetings to find the correct one. "Happy Holidays" or "Have a Nice Winter Break" are nice because they are universal and non-denominational.

WHY?? Why does it have to be non-denominal!!!! Why does it have to be seccular. You cant say that it is simply better to revert to greetings and expressions that revert to chr- (oops, almost said it, wouldn't want to do that;) ) the truth is religion, in general, is bigger than atheism. However that does not matter. (Majority-minority, its all good:) ) I just feel that I am being banned of what I want to say. I dont care, if you don't care when jesus was born. because guess what? I DONT CARE THAT YOU DONT WANT ME TO MENTION JESUS!!!!!!

I DONT CARE THAT YOU DONT WANT ME TO MENTION JESUS!!!!!!

and as long as you aren't acting as an agent of the state or with the public relations end of a major corporation, nobody really cares if you do

WHY?? Why does it have to be non-denominal!!!! Why does it have to be seccular. You cant say that it is simply better to revert to greetings and expressions that revert to chr- (oops, almost said it, wouldn't want to do that;) ) the truth is religion, in general, is bigger than atheism. However that does not matter. (Majority-minority, its all good:) ) I just feel that I am being banned of what I want to say. I dont care, if you don't care when jesus was born. because guess what? I DONT CARE THAT YOU DONT WANT ME TO MENTION JESUS!!!!!!

Say you owned a make-up company. Would you sell only light coloured foundations because the majority of americans are caucasion?
In addition, you may mention Jesus if it pleases you. But the government and people in authority must not address the entire population as Christians.

WHY?? Why does it have to be non-denominal!!!! Why does it have to be seccular.

Who is talking about secular ? There *are* other religions than Christianity with december holidays out there you know.

In response to the original post:

Screw it! I don't care if you're religious or not, say Merry Christmas. We all know that for many people Christmas has gone beyond the birth of Christ and completely become about presents, tinsel, baking and decorated trees. Where I live, people who've never said a prayer (except when The Lord's Prayer was forced onto kids in public schools), stepped into a church or openned a Bible still celebrate Chirstmas. For Christians the holiday is about religion, for the rest it's about commercialism.

I'll use an example that happened in Toronto a year or two ago. Toronto usually has a large decorated Christmas tree in front of Toronto City Hall during the month of December. However, this one year, the city council decided that calling it a "Christmas Tree" was too pro-Christian/anti-Other Religions, and they told the city to refer to it as the "Holiday Tree".
A day or two later, leaders from Muslim, Jewish, etc. communities said: "Why call it a Holiday Tree? that's stupid! it still stand for the Christmas season, so it doesn't matter to us either way."

The Toronto City Council changed it back to a "Christmas Tree".

hahaha

aren't false dichotomies fun?!?

In response to the original post:

Screw it! I don't care if you're religious or not, say Merry Christmas. We all know that for many people Christmas has gone beyond the birth of Christ and completely become about presents, tinsel, baking and decorated trees. Where I live, people who've never said a prayer (except when The Lord's Prayer was forced onto kids in public schools), stepped into a church or openned a Bible still celebrate Chirstmas. For Christians the holiday is about religion, for the rest it's about commercialism.

Since I fit into this category: Christmas isn't EITHER religon OR commercialism. To me, it's a fun festival celebrating generosity and good will toward man. Not religious (although it's a message that is often incorporated into religion), and not commercialist. More choices than you suggest.

I'll use an example that happened in Toronto a year or two ago. Toronto usually has a large decorated Christmas tree in front of Toronto City Hall during the month of December. However, this one year, the city council decided that calling it a "Christmas Tree" was too pro-Christian/anti-Other Religions, and they told the city to refer to it as the "Holiday Tree".
A day or two later, leaders from Muslim, Jewish, etc. communities said: "Why call it a Holiday Tree? that's stupid! it still stand for the Christmas season, so it doesn't matter to us either way."

The Toronto City Council changed it back to a "Christmas Tree".

This is what I mean. WE DON'T CARE. That council, like schools and corporations, is scared of lawsuits and complaints that simply aren't occurring. Rather like the Y2K scare- it was a major concern and netted many headlines, but when the event actually occurred, there was no problem at all.

Christians won't "protest and protest" to get thier way (as leftist and non-christians have been doing for the past 40 years) but simply defend and outline thier right to tradition.
I must have communicated that wrong. I meant the Atheists would be the ones to protest

What we really ought to realize is that for Americans at least, Christmas has a duel nature - some could call it contradictory, but I think it's really all about just what the original pagan holiday from Roman times was about - joy and celebration. Some celebrate it as a time of the remembrance of the birth of Christ - to us that is a joyous occassion to celebrate. For others it simply represents a holiday dedicated to the joys of a prosperous, materialistic society. That aspect I also celebrate

I grew up in Atlanta, and didn't have to look hard to pick up on it. Most of my Chinese immigrant friends picked up quickly on decorating their homes with Christmas lights, erecting Christmas trees, and selecting a few other Christmas traditions. Is this the mark of Christian oppression, forcing the non-Christian foreign heathens to follow our rightful ways? Ha, not hardly. We had a great Chinese New Year celebration at our schoool soon afterwards, for one thing.

I'd argue that we were all just celebrating a culture built on prosperity. Our school followed a very lenient policy, essentially allowing people to do what they wanted. Plenty of teachers did put up Christmas trees and such, and no one really seemed to care that much. It's because any sane person understands that unless accompanied by a nativity scene or something (which I don't see a problem with allowing either, but for the purposes of my point...) the purpose of Christmas is decidedly not in the Christian perspective. Santa Claus, gift giving, bright decorations, etc are all most notably not institutions of Christianity. They are emblems of a happy and prosperous nation, and that I think is something for all to celebrate. So when someone tells you "Merry Christmas", don't take it to mean "Convert to Our Ways, Heathen". I'm a practicing Christian, and I assure you that I don't associate it with Christianity at all when in public. I'm just wishing you as a sign of good will happiness in a season especially devoted to its celebration. And if you don't want to be happy, then you are just denying your existence ;)

And therefore, I think anyone that wants it banned is an idiot :)

When people talk about "separation of church and state" they are talking about the first amendment to the Constitution, which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".
Which means the US government can't say "The US is officially a Christian nation." And, at least since the liberalization of the supreme court (I say that without derision, because I agree with them on this), it means that a school cannot officially sanction religious activities such as prayer. Where is the line between simply allowing, though, and sanctioning?

The whole debate is absolutely retarded, no more or less. The lengths some people have done to prevent some imagined "offense" at the word "Christmas" are absolutely insane.

For the record, the legal argument, at least in the United States, is absolutely moot, seeing as "Christmas" is a Federal holiday. Therefore the government recognizes and supports Christmas as such, and therefore NO ONE can be sued for simply using the term "Christmas." (technically, they could be sued, but they would automatically lose on dismissal on matter of law)

We all know that the Christmas tree is historically borrowed from the pagan winter solstice celebrations, but it's been so called for as long as English as we know it has existed. The tradition of having a tree is a Christian incorporation. Not Jewish, not Muslim. The mere fact of the tree, then, denotes a Christian tradition. The irony continues even if you misname it a "Holiday Tree." If any of these PC morons understood the etymology of "holiday," they'd realize it stands for Holy Day!

You can't remove religion from the world. It is as foundational as humanity itself. Even if you are an agnostic, the world in which you live, and the words you speak have been shaped by religion. The United States Constitution protects one's "freedom OF religion," not "freedom FROM religion." As such, any person, institution, or government body is free to call Christmas what it is.

There is more that can be said, but you just have to stop and laugh at the grossly illogical nature of the whole thing. It's a Christmas tree; always has been, always will be. Renaming it a "Holiday" tree is just plain stupid, since you're still recognizing religion with "holiday" and the "tree" still denotes the Christian celebration. So you may as well avert any convolution of names and call it a freakin Christmas tree.

Meh .... funny conversation I had with a clerk:

"Merry Christmas!"
"Happy Chanukkah!"
"I'm not Jewish."
"I'm not Christian."
"Oh. Is it Chanukkah?"
"No, but it's not Christmas either."

Good times.

I'm pretty indifferent. If the Christian kids want to put up a tree and show their Paganness, I'm all for it. Kudos to them. If the Jewish kids want to light a chanukkiah, so be it.

As long as I'm not payin' for it and no teacher is forcing my kids to participate, I don't care.

If the Jewish kids want to light a chanukkiah, so be it.

Fire hazard...:p

Fire hazard...:p

Lol ... well ... so some of those lightbulb candleabras then. :D

WHY?? Why does it have to be non-denominal!!!! Why does it have to be seccular. You cant say that it is simply better to revert to greetings and expressions that revert to chr- (oops, almost said it, wouldn't want to do that;) ) the truth is religion, in general, is bigger than atheism. However that does not matter. (Majority-minority, its all good:) ) I just feel that I am being banned of what I want to say. I dont care, if you don't care when jesus was born. because guess what? I DONT CARE THAT YOU DONT WANT ME TO MENTION JESUS!!!!!!
Why do Christians have to rant and rave if they don't get their way?

I think it's a very good idea! http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
There's absolutely no place for religion in school, so ousting it is definitely the way to go! http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
The Christians already use all sorts of other places to impose their crap and f*cked up morals on everyone, so at least the school should be exempt from it. :)

I'm Muslim and I wanna see "Merry Christmas" signs everywhere like there was when I was younger (I think...)!

So long as you don't go running around telling me to embrace the so-called "Son of God", it's all good.We need more of this...
we need to see more Tolerance...

thumbs up for the people like Colodia.

this afternoon i drove a truckload of supplies to the frontlines of the war on christmas. it's hell out there, boys. blown up reindeer parts everywhere, baby jesuses roasting on open fires, civillians keeping their heads down trying to avoid a white phosphorus christmas, crazed fundies screaming 'yahweh akbar' before blowing themselves up in shopping malls. but one day we will be victorious against the enemy who think the winter festival ever had any connection to their silly god.

myself, i'm gonna get me a star and crescent to go on top of my festivus pole.Merry Christmas to you too
:D :D

Why should secular decorations be used exclusively? That is the question.

The exclusion of any belief negates the freedom of religion. The promotion of any by the government (ie: state holidays) negates the statement about establishment of religion.

State run schools should teach, as part of a social/anthropology class, all cultures and their religious beliefs.

Not allowing people who believe in the christmas story the right to say merry christmas is censorship as evil as McCarthy ever wanted to accomplish.

Amendment 1, US Constitution 12/15/1791
The Congress (USA) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I think the ACLU is destroying America. If we don't fight it what right will we have to complain when are children have no freedom of speech.

In response to the original post:

Screw it! I don't care if you're religious or not, say Merry Christmas. We all know that for many people Christmas has gone beyond the birth of Christ and completely become about presents, tinsel, baking and decorated trees. Where I live, people who've never said a prayer (except when The Lord's Prayer was forced onto kids in public schools), stepped into a church or openned a Bible still celebrate Chirstmas. For Christians the holiday is about religion, for the rest it's about commercialism.

I'll use an example that happened in Toronto a year or two ago. Toronto usually has a large decorated Christmas tree in front of Toronto City Hall during the month of December. However, this one year, the city council decided that calling it a "Christmas Tree" was too pro-Christian/anti-Other Religions, and they told the city to refer to it as the "Holiday Tree".
A day or two later, leaders from Muslim, Jewish, etc. communities said: "Why call it a Holiday Tree? that's stupid! it still stand for the Christmas season, so it doesn't matter to us either way."

The Toronto City Council changed it back to a "Christmas Tree".
Thumbs up to the Toronto Muslim, Jewish, and other community leaders...

For telling the Toronto city council..."You are a bunch of Idiots"

I think the ACLU is destroying America. If we don't fight it what right will we have to complain when are children have no freedom of speech.the ACLU may not be perfect...(nothing is perfect)
But the ACLU is for Freedom of Speech.

thanks God for the ACLU.

*Wishes the ACLU merry Christmas*

Thumbs up to the Toronto Muslim, Jewish, and other community leaders...

For telling the Toronto city council..."You are a bunch of Idiots"
I agree...have you ever seen a ramadan tree? But what annoys me is seeing people with Hannukah bushes; they are the most rediculous thing i've ever heard of. Jewish traditions are no better or worse than christian ones, there is no reason to forsake them to be "more like everyone else" /rant