NationStates Jolt Archive

Something someone said on another thread got me thinking about this.

I live in the US. My family has been here for 6 or 7 generations now. By my reckoning I am a native american.

Yet in saying this I will no doubt rile many people, particularly, liberals and those whose ancestors have been natives for longer than my family (although I am sure some would also agree with me).

At which point do one become a "native placeian"? Technically the "Native Americans" aren't really since the historical evidence shows them originating via a migration across the Bering Straights.

In this planet's vast past there are many times that people from one area conqure and settle another. Then they are there for a long time and become considered as the native population.

So when is that point crossed?

I suppose you could define it as the peoples and culture that existed in a region prior to the arrival of outside invaders, settlers, cultures etc.

Pretty much the first people to permanently inhabit the region would be its natives.

<snip>

Why would it rile liberals more so than other people?

Also Native Americans are a race. Unless you've the proper genes, you can't get in.

It could be argued (because tribes of people are so mixed up these days) that as long as you follow local custom, you're a native.

Something someone said on another thread got me thinking about this.

I live in the US. My family has been here for 6 or 7 generations now. By my reckoning I am a native american.

Yet in saying this I will no doubt rile many people, particularly, liberals and those whose ancestors have been natives for longer than my family (although I am sure some would also agree with me).

At which point do one become a "native placeian"? Technically the "Native Americans" aren't really since the historical evidence shows them originating via a migration across the Bering Straights.

In this planet's vast past there are many times that people from one area conqure and settle another. Then they are there for a long time and become considered as the native population.

So when is that point crossed?

if you are born in the united states you are native.

that doesnt make you an indian

that "native american" can logically mean "one who is born in the united states" doesnt make the political claims of groups who existed in the US before the arrival of columbus moot.

You aren't a Native American unless you've got the genealogy to back your claim. However, the most sensible definition for determining whether you are a native to a country is to finish this quiz:
1: The time that you resulted from your father sticking his penis in your mother's vagina, what country were they in?
2: Was it the same country you were born in?
If yes to 2, then you are a native of the country you were conceived in, if the answer to 2 is no, then you are a native of no land. Much like the Roma, you will roam the world with no friends or home to call your own until the Nazis eventually kill 1/4 of you but nobody cares because you aren't Jewish.

To be considered a native part of your family must go back at least 500 years in America. Same in Europe, or Japan.

You are a native American. (Problem here is that American "Indians" are called Native Americans as well, but you're not one of those - difference is in the capital 'N' I guess.)

If you live in a place from a young age, you take on your environment, the culture of it, the language and all the rest of it. If your parents are immigrants, than you'll probably preserve a lot more of your old culture, simply because I don't think people ever completely integrate.

But then again, I'm one of those "There is only one race, and that's the human one"-types. Which is why I don't accept "I have a German heritage" either.

Your ancestral home is wherever and with whomever you spent your childhood, no more no less.

It's like this:

A native american is someone born in the United States.

A Native American is someone whose race is that of the Asian people's who crossed the Bering Strait into the americas during the last ice age.

The clothes. Assuming it's a native man.

Yet in saying this I will no doubt rile many people, particularly, liberals

Hmm, I thought the opposite would be true. But that's just me.

To be considered a native part of your family must go back at least 500 years in America. Same in Europe, or Japan.
Does that mean I'm a native to nowhere?

Parts of my family goes back to the american civil war in the states, other parts left Europe as recently as fleeing WW1, but I'm born in Canada.

Since I wasn't born in Europe, I'm not native to Europe and my family hasn't been here long enough to be native to either Canada or the U.S., also, if I move to Europe, do my children count as native Europeans, seeing as their family would have been in Europe 500 years ago even though their immediate family are immigrants?

Does that mean I'm a native to nowhere?


I think by that definition, very few people are "natives."

Oooh, it might've been me who inspired this. Don't tell me if it's not, I can live with the lie...

There are Natives here, they get the claim and that's pretty much how it goes. A lot of us come from families that have been here a while but are from cultures that originated elsewhere, and that's actually the whole American 'thing.' Being American is, in essence, being from a lot of places and living with people from a lot of other places who are here now. Being Native American is having been here first.

Why the need for the distinction, really? Why do you have to have that Native, especially when it already has a clear distinction that you already understand? Do you want to be 'more American' than the group that's only been here for three generations?

Also Native Americans are a race. Unless you've the proper genes, you can't get in.

I believe there are enough genetic diffrences that the various groups that are clumped as "Native Americans" could be divided into several diffrent races.

Are the Mongols the same race as the Japanese? or the Norweigians the same as the Spainards or the Germantic people? What about the Africans and the Austrailian Aboriginies? All these groups have many similar traits but are usually considered seperate races. Again where is the line? We could sub divide people genetically until we have over a billion seperate races?

And then I have to ask since my blood line is well established here now why can't I also assume the title of a Native American? I'm a native to this land and I am an American. I'll grant I can't assume Cherokee or Cree or Shawnee or any of those, but by what right are they the sole claimant to "Native American"?

BTW, please do not take this as any kind of animosity towards any people of the tribes here prior to European exploration and colonization.

Being American is, in essence, being from a lot of places and living with people from a lot of other places who are here now.
I'd almost feel inclined to disagree with this point. Puerto Ricans living in the US are different from Puerto Ricans living in Puerto Rico, and the same goes for Chinese, Germans (for those I have personal experience) and everyone else.
Indeed, I'd say that a "German-American" is in many respects more like a "Chinese-American" than someone from Germany. There is something that all Americans have in common, culturally and the way they look at life.

But then again, that kinda begs the question: What does it mean to be American?

... but by what right are they the sole claimant to "Native American"?...


Because they, as a people, where here first.

Does that mean I'm a native to nowhere?
Yup. But it's not that bad. You still get to do whatever you want.

Parts of my family goes back to the american civil war in the states, other parts left Europe as recently as fleeing WW1, but I'm born in Canada.
Oh, Canada! Should have said that before. Canada has a more liberal Canadization policy. They call the indigenous people First Nations, then they have New Canadians, and Canadians. But if you're born in Canada you're a Native Canadian.

Since I wasn't born in Europe, I'm not native to Europe and my family hasn't been here long enough to be native to either Canada or the U.S., also, if I move to Europe, do my children count as native Europeans, seeing as their family would have been in Europe 500 years ago even though their immediate family are immigrants?
If they're white, your children will be considered European. If you marry someone from Turkey, China, or Africa, and they take from that side of the family, they'll be Turkish, Chinese, or African. Europeans and Japanese are like that, then they have riots.

And then I have to ask since my blood line is well established here now why can't I also assume the title of a Native American? I'm a native to this land and I am an American. I'll grant I can't assume Cherokee or Cree or Shawnee or any of those, but by what right are they the sole claimant to "Native American"?.

They were the first humans to permanently settle the Americas, making them its native people. More specifically, they are the indigenous native people of the Americas. However, I don't know if they are an aboriginal people, or if there were others before them that previously died out.

You aren't a Native American unless you've got the genealogy to back your claim. However, the most sensible definition for determining whether you are a native to a country is to finish this quiz:
1: The time that you resulted from your father sticking his penis in your mother's vagina, what country were they in?
2: Was it the same country you were born in?
If yes to 2, then you are a native of the country you were conceived in, if the answer to 2 is no, then you are a native of no land. Much like the Roma, you will roam the world with no friends or home to call your own until the Nazis eventually kill 1/4 of you but nobody cares because you aren't Jewish.

Silly. You're a native of the country in which you are born.

I'd almost feel inclined to disagree with this point. Puerto Ricans living in the US are different from Puerto Ricans living in Puerto Rico, and the same goes for Chinese, Germans (for those I have personal experience) and everyone else.
Indeed, I'd say that a "German-American" is in many respects more like a "Chinese-American" than someone from Germany. There is something that all Americans have in common, culturally and the way they look at life.

But then again, that kinda begs the question: What does it mean to be American?
Well, yeah-they're here. They brought all thier bits and mixed it with everyone elses bits and made a big new bit, made of a bunch of other bits and some new bits built from there. Of course a Puerto Rican in the US is different than a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico, where'd you get the idea that they would be the same?

Silly. You're a native of the country in which you are born.
I know, but I just like reveling in the suffering of one of the most tormented people in the world and that quiz was the only way I could think of to fit a Roma reference in.

Silly. You're a native of the country in which you are born.
But with that, I had issues in the past.
Near where I lived in Germany, a family moved back which had left for America about 10 years or so ago. Their son had been born in Germany, but they moved when he was about one or two years old.
He was "socialised" in America, and even though his parents had taught him the language...he always behaved a little different from the other kids at school when he came back.

Cases like these are kinda borderline, and it's difficult to tell what that person's nationality is...and I think he probably would've had dual citizenship as well.

I believe there are enough genetic diffrences that the various groups that are clumped as "Native Americans" could be divided into several diffrent races.

Are the Mongols the same race as the Japanese? or the Norweigians the same as the Spainards or the Germantic people? What about the Africans and the Austrailian Aboriginies? All these groups have many similar traits but are usually considered seperate races. Again where is the line? We could sub divide people genetically until we have over a billion seperate races?

And then I have to ask since my blood line is well established here now why can't I also assume the title of a Native American? I'm a native to this land and I am an American. I'll grant I can't assume Cherokee or Cree or Shawnee or any of those, but by what right are they the sole claimant to "Native American"?

BTW, please do not take this as any kind of animosity towards any people of the tribes here prior to European exploration and colonization.
they are the sole claimants to "Native American" not native american. its just a PCish phrase chosen to replace the even more inaccurate "american indians"

dont take it so personally.

Something someone said on another thread got me thinking about this.

I live in the US. My family has been here for 6 or 7 generations now. By my reckoning I am a native american.

Yet in saying this I will no doubt rile many people, particularly, liberals and those whose ancestors have been natives for longer than my family (although I am sure some would also agree with me).

At which point do one become a "native placeian"? Technically the "Native Americans" aren't really since the historical evidence shows them originating via a migration across the Bering Straights.

In this planet's vast past there are many times that people from one area conqure and settle another. Then they are there for a long time and become considered as the native population.

So when is that point crossed?

You are playing a silly game of semantics to try to make a rather lame point.

Actually, the relevant legal term is Indian. There are statutes and case law that defines who is and is not an Indian.

So much for your sophistry.

EDIT: From the Bureau of Indian Affairs (http://web.archive.org/web/20010405185044/www.doi.gov/bia/aitoday/q_and_a.html):

Who is an Indian?

No single Federal or tribal criterion establishes a person's identity as an Indian. Government agencies use differing criteria to determine who is an Indian eligible to participate in their programs. Tribes also have varying eligibility criteria for membership. To determine what the criteria might be for agencies or Tribes, you must contact each entity directly.

To be eligible for Bureau of Indian Affairs services, an Indian must (1) be a member of a Tribe recognized by the Federal Government, (2) one-half or more Indian blood of tribes indigenous to the United States (25 USC 479) ; or (3) must, for some purposes, be of one-fourth or more Indian ancestry. By legislative and administrative decision, the Aleuts, Eskimos and Indians of Alaska are eligible for BIA services. Most of the BIA's services and programs, however, are limited to Indians living on or near Indian reservations.

....

What is a Federally recognized tribe?

There are more than 550 Federally recognized Tribes in the United States, including 223 village groups in Alaska. "Federally recognized" means these tribes and groups have a special, legal relationship with the U.S. government. This relationship is referred to as a government-to-government relationship. Members of Federally recognized Tribes who do not reside on their reservations have limited relations with the BIA and IHS, since BIA and IHS programs are primarily administered for members of Federally recognized tribes who live on or near reservations.

A number of Indian Tribes and groups in the U.S. do not have a Federally recognized status, although some are State recognized. This means they have no relations with the BIA or the programs it operates. A special program of the BIA, however, works with those groups seeking Federal recognition status. Of the 150 petitions for Federal recognition received by the BIA since 1978, 12 have received acknowledgment through the BIA process, two groups had their status clarified by the Department of the Interior through other means, and seven were restored or recognized by Congress.

Of course a Puerto Rican in the US is different than a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico, where'd you get the idea that they would be the same?
Just a point that being American is something more than simply having contact with many different cultures. I'd even question whether you could call the US a multicultural society, because individual cultures usually aren't preserved very well with all the mixing and the consumerism (for want of a better word) and so on.
There is something independently American that people pick up, I'd think.

But don't ask me what that could be. I've never even been to the place.

You are playing a silly game of semantics to try to make a rather lame point.

Actually, the relevant legal term is Indian. There are statutes and case law that defines who is and is not an Indian.

So much for your sophistry.

Geez, settle down CT. You're making a nativity scene.




For that, I should be shot.

Just a point that being American is something more than simply having contact with many different cultures. I'd even question whether you could call the US a multicultural society, because individual cultures usually aren't preserved very well with all the mixing and the consumerism (for want of a better word) and so on.
There is something independently American that people pick up, I'd think.

But don't ask me what that could be. I've never even been to the place.
It's not a patchwork where you can see whole cloth still intact, it's more of a smear, and an uneven one at that.

Geez, settle down CT. You're making a nativity scene.




For that, I should be shot.
:sniper:

Geez, settle down CT. You're making a nativity scene.




For that, I should be shot.

how long have you been waiting for a chance to use that pun??

how long have you been waiting for a chance to use that pun??

Since my ancestors left East Africa. I have but three puns left now. When my last pun is used up, the Guff will be empty - and the Anti-Christ will be born.

Since my ancestors left East Africa. I have but three puns left now. When my last pun is used up, the Guff will be empty - and the Anti-Christ will be born.
Then I suppose its a good thing that the conditions for Pun #2 (a giant clown arguing with a midget over the ownership of a dozen cockerspaniels) are suitably rare.

Isint there a offcial timeframe i heard it's about 2000 years then the species is classed as native.

Then I suppose its a good thing that the conditions for Pun #2 (a giant clown arguing with a midget over the ownership of a dozen cockerspaniels) are suitably rare.

Quit fingering my sixth seal.