NationStates Jolt Archive

I rescind my earlier statement of you not being rude.

:-P

You screamed that the people on thread know nothing about evolutionary theory, when there is ample evidence that several people here are considerably more conversant on the subject than you.

The means by which I questioned the content of your posts is still substantially kinder than what you've said to many of us, so your opinion of my civility carries little weight. Its honestly nothing personal.

'Here' is Australia. I'd better add NSW, as the syllabusses vary state to state.

I know that in one biology lesson (or, more rather, two text book page), we did breifly brush over ID, as an 'alternative' to creation via panspermia, or the Haldane/Oparin theorys (personally I favour the latter, but that's another tppic..).
However, they tried to include most of the major religion creationist theroies, as well as indigenous myths.
I feel that if ever religion study became compulsory (which I definatly don't think it should), all religions would have to be covered, no just Christianity. However, that is tricky, as there are so many.

Interesting. Australia is a Commonwealth nation, isn't it? Does any particular law regulate the interaction of religion with civil services like education? It feels to me sometimes that the U.K, Australia, and others don't have the same friction over this kind of thing.

A friend of mine is doing an exchange program, spending a year at Sydney University as an Electrical Engineering student, before she comes back to finish up here.

Well seeing as the flow of the posts have died down, i shall now revive them. The following is a quote from the constitution of the united states of america (and if you guys are in Britain, that might explain why these legal debates have been gowing no where).

1ST AMENDMENT Congress shall make no law respecting an establishement of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of.

Translation... Congress will not impose on anyones right to exercise religion.

Democrate translation... No religious institutions in any federal establishment sanctioned by the US government

Well seeing as the flow of the posts have died down, i shall now revive them. The following is a quote from the constitution of the united states of america (and if you guys are in Britain, that might explain why these legal debates have been gowing no where).

1ST AMENDMENT Congress shall make no law respecting an establishement of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of.

Translation... Congress will not impose on anyones right to exercise religion.

Democrate translation... No religious institutions in any federal establishment sanctioned by the US government

By instituting, teaching, introducing, or supporting any one religion, they impose on all the others.

Interesting. Australia is a Commonwealth nation, isn't it? Does any particular law regulate the interaction of religion with civil services like education? It feels to me sometimes that the U.K, Australia, and others don't have the same friction over this kind of thing.

A friend of mine is doing an exchange program, spending a year at Sydney University as an Electrical Engineering student, before she comes back to finish up here.

Ok, if you dont mind me asking.. where are you..?

The creation of the Universe has nothing to do with Evolution. Evolution is Biology. The creation of the Universe is theoretical physics. Again, your ignorance shows.

Also, you apparently don't know what the term "theory" means in a scientific context.

(picks up his keyboard...sees "made in China".)

Hey, I just proved the universe was created by China!!!

I have found that no matter how many times you tell people that evolution has nothing to do with the creation of the universe/abiogensis/non sequitur of the day [delete as applicable], it rarely makes an impression.

Nice job on the outsourcing BTW. ;)

Ok, if you dont mind me asking.. where are you..?

United States, Southwest Region. I've taught in high schools here, although never a biology class. Subbed in a healthcare sciences trade program, once.

What will you do if they decide to allow religious indoctrination in schools, but not the one you like? Wicca is a belief system just as valid as yours; shall your children be taught Wiccan beliefs on my dollar?

By instituting, teaching, introducing, or supporting any one religion, they impose on all the others.

True true... but however... The original founding of this Country(USA) is upon JudeoChristian teachings. This country was founded upon Religion. Personally if people dont like that.. I feel they can get out. Because America is a democracy. And the Majority of Americans are christians. The secular movement is being fueled by a minority. THey realize that Democracy wont work for them, so they go around that and go to the courts to attack the constitution judicially all because chief justice Jon marshal decided way back then that supreme court had that jurisdiction...the founding fathers never gave said they could. Marshal just assummed.

Interesting. Australia is a Commonwealth nation, isn't it? Does any particular law regulate the interaction of religion with civil services like education? It feels to me sometimes that the U.K, Australia, and others don't have the same friction over this kind of thing.

A friend of mine is doing an exchange program, spending a year at Sydney University as an Electrical Engineering student, before she comes back to finish up here.

(Sorry to deviate horribly from the topic at hand.) I'm not really sure on the specifics. I don't do Legal Studies, or anything, & I don't really know overall laws like that.
I know that railway gauges are the same, but that's about it...
However, I know that the education systems vary.
Here (NSW), in year ten, we have a School Certificate. The teachers have to teach what the Board of Studies tells them, as these are the areas which will be in the exams.
In year twelve we have our final exams (Higher School Certificate). These also have syllabuses that must be followed.
I'm not too sure about other states, but I've spoken to out-of-state friends, & they do different types of tests.

United States, Southwest Region. I've taught in high schools here, although never a biology class. Subbed in a healthcare sciences trade program, once.

What will you do if they decide to allow religious indoctrination in schools, but not the one you like? Wicca is a belief system just as valid as yours; shall your children be taught Wiccan beliefs on my dollar?

But u missunder stand my argument. I dont support anything of the kind. Im against manditory prayer in school. But I support prayer being allowed in school. Im against laws that have recently been passed in Texas that wont allow student organized prayer before a football game for example. The students not the teachers organized it on their own free will. All the atheists who complained were not forced to listen. THey could have left.

True true... but however... The original founding of this Country(USA) is upon JudeoChristian teachings. This country was founded upon Religion. Personally if people dont like that.. I feel they can get out. Because America is a democracy. And the Majority of Americans are christians. The secular movement is being fueled by a minority. THey realize that Democracy wont work for them, so they go around that and go to the courts to attack the constitution judicially all because chief justice Jon marshal decided way back then that supreme court had that jurisdiction...the founding fathers never gave said they could. Marshal just assummed.

Okay, once you say "True, True", you've admitted then that what you're suggesting imposes on religion, which you yourself said is against the 1st Amendment. So, by your own reasoning, this factually is unconstitutional.

Tell, me, how much of the constitution do you consider to be related to limiting the tyranny of the majority and to preserve the rights of the minority? For instance, the formation of a bicameral legislature, what do you feel was the impetus for that?

May I ask, how thorough do you profess your knowledge of the Supreme Court's history to be, Marshal's work in particular?

And i don't mean to be demeaning, but you said south west US... does that mean you possibly went to Berkley.

But u missunder stand my argument. I dont support anything of the kind. Im against manditory prayer in school. But I support prayer being allowed in school. Im against laws that have recently been passed in Texas that wont allow student organized prayer before a football game for example. The students not the teachers organized it on their own free will. All the atheists who complained were not forced to listen. THey could have left.

So why do the non-praying folks have to leave? If a student has time on his hands in-between classes or whatever, and he/she wants to pray, fine. But if it is during the time set aside for a specific publically funded activity, and people are told "pray with us or leave", that's imposing.

And i don't mean to be demeaning, but you said south west US... does that mean you possibly went to Berkley.

Nope, never attended Berkeley, but a mentor of mine has done work on the ALS device there, and frequently travels there to attend or give seminars on physics and chemistry. I would go in a heartbeat if he were to invite me to go along, but I'm not at that level, yet.

True true... but however... The original founding of this Country(USA) is upon JudeoChristian teachings. This country was founded upon Religion. Personally if people dont like that.. I feel they can get out. Because America is a democracy. And the Majority of Americans are christians. The secular movement is being fueled by a minority. THey realize that Democracy wont work for them, so they go around that and go to the courts to attack the constitution judicially all because chief justice Jon marshal decided way back then that supreme court had that jurisdiction...the founding fathers never gave said they could. Marshal just assummed.

Well my country was founded upon convicts. I supopose that means that nowaday everyone in Australia should still be a convict, just because it happened in the past?
I guess in massachusetts they should still be burning witches too.
Why should only Christians have their religions represtented? Because they are a majority? That is just arrogant.
So you are saying that Muslims, Jews & Wiccans (incidently, the fastest grown religion is Wicca) have no rights to religion?
'Democracy' means equility for all. That should include religion.
However, there are too many religions for them to all be represtented in a school environment. Also, some parents might not want their children learing certain religions. So it is just easier, & fairer, for all if religion is kept out of the classroom.

Okay, once you say "True, True", you've admitted then that what you're suggesting imposes on religion, which you yourself said is against the 1st Amendment. So, by your own reasoning, this factually is unconstitutional.

Tell, me, how much of the constitution do you consider to be related to limiting the tyranny of the majority and to preserve the rights of the minority? For instance, the formation of a bicameral legislature, what do you feel was the impetus for that?

May I ask, how thorough do you profess your knowledge of the Supreme Court's history to be, Marshal's work in particular?


Marbury vs. Madison Marshall decided that the law that Marbury placed his appeal on was unconsitutional for the first time asserting the Supreme Courts abiliy to judge the Constitutionality of and law passed by congress.


Democracy equals Majority Rule because more votes than other side means youve won. Some is going to be oppressed no matter what you do. Like for instance the smoking law that makes it illegal to smoke indoors. Majority in most states pass the law. Whos oppressed? The smokers. Were not letting them express their habbits. Well tough luck the masses have spoken. Same concept here: The majority of people rule over minority beliefs...how is this good because more people will be happy than unhappy...crappy, but hey its democracy

Well my country was founded upon convicts. I supopose that means that nowaday everyone in Australia should still be a convict, just because it happened in the past?
I guess in massachusetts they should still be burning witches too.
Why should only Christians have their religions represtented? Because they are a majority? That is just arrogant.
So you are saying that Muslims, Jews & Wiccans (incidently, the fastest grown religion is Wicca) have no rights to religion?
'Democracy' means equility for all. That should include religion.
However, there are too many religions for them to all be represtented in a school environment. Also, some parents might not want their children learing certain religions. So it is just easier, & fairer, for all if religion is kept out of the classroom.


No thats not what im saying., People of a different religion come here to a different country and expect us to change our ways to suit them. Im sorry i refuse point blank to do this. THis is my country you want to come here Great glad to have you with us. But assimilate to OUR culture... or get out to where ever they have YOUR culture

Democracy equals Majority Rule because more votes than other side means youve won. Some is going to be oppressed no matter what you do. Like for instance the smoking law that makes it illegal to smoke indoors. Majority in most states pass the law. Whos oppressed? The smokers. Were not letting them express their habbits. Well tough luck the masses have spoken. Same concept here: The majority of people rule over minority beliefs...how is this good because more people will be happy than unhappy...crappy, but hey its democracy

A central purpose of the constitution is to limit the majority's ability to pass certain laws; the Bill of Rights in particular was set to insure that certain rights could not be abbrogated by the legislature, or even by majority public referendum. So, Democracy in this country equals Majority Rule Unless Its Unconstitutional, and we've already established that imposing religion is against the very 1st Amendment.

No thats not what im saying., People of a different religion come here to a different country and expect us to change our ways to suit them. Im sorry i refuse point blank to do this. THis is my country you want to come here Great glad to have you with us. But assimilate to OUR culture... or get out to where ever they have YOUR culture

So why are you not worshipping Native American gods?
You expected them to change.

I don't believe y'all are still talking about this. But just to be a pain, I am a Christian and I think that teaching I.D. in public schools is a very bad idea. The education the kids would get under that system will not adequately prepare them for any further education they might hope to attain in the real world. Teach kids I.D. and the kids will be the ones who lose. "Science" based on faith is a dead end, and completely subjective. Besides, if this does succeed, then who's to say what other faith will decide that their "scientific" viewpoint needs to be taught as well? Where will this all end? If it aint broke, don't fix it. If you must teach your kids I.D., do it in your own home, or move them to a private school that has a curriculum that you find more palatable. Evolution and I.D. are not and never have been completely conflicting concepts, even if you believe a Supreme Being of some sort or another initially created the world. Evolution is a continuing and ongoing process. The two concepts can co-exist. Leave the religion at home, where it belongs.

So why do the non-praying folks have to leave? If a student has time on his hands in-between classes or whatever, and he/she wants to pray, fine. But if it is during the time set aside for a specific publically funded activity, and people are told "pray with us or leave", that's imposing.

Goes back to the same argument minority of majority. Majority of the people like it. But 2 people out of 150 dont like it. Now EVERYBODY has to change to suit two people.. thats im sory but no other word quite captures it. Thats bullshit.

No thats not what im saying., People of a different religion come here to a different country and expect us to change our ways to suit them. Im sorry i refuse point blank to do this. THis is my country you want to come here Great glad to have you with us. But assimilate to OUR culture... or get out to where ever they have YOUR culture

Wow, that's a non-sequitur...and guess what, its my country, too. Well, if you want to jump the track all the way to this, I'll go with you...

If we really examined our behaviour, how many of our traditions, words, and practices might come from other cultures? You talk about "our" culture like its some kind of homogenous monolith.

And be careful equating religion with culture. If a christian from Ethiopia comes over here, you might find him or her less culturally compatable than a Jew from Canada.

Goes back to the same argument minority of majority. Majority of the people like it. But 2 people out of 150 dont like it. Now EVERYBODY has to change to suit two people.. thats im sory but no other word quite captures it. Thats bullshit.

I'm reasonably sure that if you were a member of the minority then you would not be saying this.
You would be glad of democracy to help you.

Thank you for your statement, Myotisinia. I believe it to be one of the more intelligent here today.

I don't believe y'all are still talking about this. But just to be a pain, I am a Christian and I think that teaching I.D. in public schools is a very bad idea. The education the kids would get under that system will not adequately prepare them for any further education they might hope to attain in the real world. Teach kids I.D. and the kids will be the ones who lose. "Science" based on faith is an dead end, and completely subjective. Besides, if this does succeed, then who's to say what other faith will decide that their "scientific" viewpoint needs to be taught as well? Where will this all end? If it aint broke, don't fix it. If you must teach your kids I.D., do it in your own home, or move them to a private school that has a curriculum that you find more palatable. Evolution and I.D. are not and never have been completely conflicting concepts, even if you believe a Supreme Being of some sort or another initially created the world. Evolution is a continuing and ongoing process. The two concepts can co-exist. Leave the religion at home, where it belongs.


YAY the third view point. Democratic Christian(i know im labeling sry) religion should be private. well doesnt the bible say proclaim your faith in all that you do and be a witness in all that you do so that all may know that jesus is god. yet you say you should hide it so that some people arent offended.
i know im the arrogant teenager who thinks he knows everything but i mean. if your gonna say you follow the religion than practice what you preach.

sry if ive offended you

I don't believe y'all are still talking about this. But just to be a pain, I am a Christian and I think that teaching I.D. in public schools is a very bad idea. The education the kids would get under that system will not adequately prepare them for any further education they might hope to attain in the real world. Teach kids I.D. and the kids will be the ones who lose. "Science" based on faith is a dead end, and completely subjective. Besides, if this does succeed, then who's to say what other faith will decide that their "scientific" viewpoint needs to be taught as well? Where will this all end? If it aint broke, don't fix it. If you must teach your kids I.D., do it in your own home, or move them to a private school that has a curriculum that you find more palatable. Evolution and I.D. are not and never have been completely conflicting concepts, even if you believe a Supreme Being of some sort or another initially created the world. Evolution is a continuing and ongoing process. The two concepts can co-exist. Leave the religion at home, where it belongs.

This is good stuff, we should both hear 'em out, Tarsonis.

I'm reasonably sure that if you were a member of the minority then you would not be saying this.
You would be glad of democracy to help you.

Probably....but im not. I used to be in the majority actually. I used to be an athiest and believed in all the government conspiracies. But friends showed me where i was wrong. And you can say i sold out, but holding to your guns in the light of overwhelming evidence is just not smart.

Probably....but im not. I used to be in the majority actually. I used to be an athiest and believed in all the government conspiracies. But friends showed me where i was wrong. And you can say i sold out, but holding to your guns in the light of overwhelming evidence is just not smart.


Oops when i said was in the majority i meant minority. damn typos.

This is good stuff, we should both hear 'em out, Tarsonis.

i love debates :)

Goes back to the same argument minority of majority. Majority of the people like it. But 2 people out of 150 dont like it. Now EVERYBODY has to change to suit two people.. thats im sory but no other word quite captures it. Thats bullshit.

Oh stop.

This has nothing to do with majoritarianism. Which, in any case, can be used to justify anything.

Democratic Christian(i know im labeling sry) religion should be private. well doesnt the bible say proclaim your faith in all that you do and be a witness in all that you do so that all may know that jesus is god. yet you say you should hide it so that some people arent offended.


I don't know if you've offended, but you've ignored the central thesis of the post. He/She's not asking you to hide anything. Proclaim whatever you want in whatever open public forum you'd like, just not in school when everyone is studying on the public dollar.

And you can say i sold out, but holding to your guns in the light of overwhelming evidence is just not smart.

Considering how you've responded to things quite selectively, and ignored several others, not sure you should preach that too hard, man.

I don't know if you've offended, but you've ignored the central thesis of the post. He/She's not asking you to hide anything. Proclaim whatever you want in whatever open public forum you'd like, just not in school when everyone is studying on the public dollar.

So me being a student should not be allowed to say I love jesus because it might mess up someones studying... well sorry but im gonna say it any way....why? because i do its a fact and its also my right to free speach.

Considering how you've responded to things quite selectively, and ignored several others, not sure you should preach that too hard, man.

I havent been given evidence... ive been given opinion. If you can give me proof that im wrong.. by all means.

Probably....but im not. I used to be in the majority actually. I used to be an athiest and believed in all the government conspiracies. But friends showed me where i was wrong. And you can say i sold out, but holding to your guns in the light of overwhelming evidence is just not smart.

You say you would probably be glad of the constitutional protection of the minority if you were in the minority, but you're not...

Kay, how 'bout this. American States get 2 Senators, regardless of size, but a number of House representatives determined by their population. In your opinion, why was it set up this way?

and to all the stuff about minority vs majority. I know its shitty. But you cant please everyone. Some one is always going to be unhappy.

So me being a student should not be allowed to say I love jesus because it might mess up someones studying... well sorry but im gonna say it any way....why? because i do its a fact and its also my right to free speach.

So, if another student loves Baphomet, The Trafficer of Souls, and wants to tell you while you're trying to learn, he's just as right.

No thats not what im saying., People of a different religion come here to a different country and expect us to change our ways to suit them. Im sorry i refuse point blank to do this. THis is my country you want to come here Great glad to have you with us. But assimilate to OUR culture... or get out to where ever they have YOUR culture
So why are you not worshipping Native American gods?
You expected them to change.


By the way, Tarsonis, you never answered.

Oh, & as above: You should be able to say that you love Jesus. However that also means that Muslims should be able to say "I love Allah". As long as it is individual prayer, it should be fine, however, some people can get offended by some words in prayers, when said aloud.
I know I was offended when kids from the local Christian school at my bus kept throwing mini bibles at me & yelling "Jesus loves you!".

I havent been given evidence... ive been given opinion. If you can give me proof that im wrong.. by all means.

You said nothing in the Constitution demands the separation of Church and State and you said that the 1st Amendment makes it wrong to impose on any religion.

I said that supporting any one religion imposes on the others, and you said "True, True". The only necessary evidence is that your position is incosistent with itself.

You say you would probably be glad of the constitutional protection of the minority if you were in the minority, but you're not...

Kay, how 'bout this. American States get 2 Senators, regardless of size, but a number of House representatives determined by their population. In your opinion, why was it set up this way?

why was it made this way. actually it was to make both sides of the argument shut up. New jersey wanted equal rep. Virgina wanted pop rep. No one agree untill Roger Sherman spoke up and Said HEY well take a little of both.

I know I was offended when kids from the local Christian school at my bus kept throwing mini bibles at me & yelling "Jesus loves you!".

I'm sorry if this was traumatic for you, but the absurdity of their behaviour is funny.

why was it made this way. actually it was to make both sides of the argument shut up. New jersey wanted equal rep. Virgina wanted pop rep. No one agree untill Roger Sherman spoke up and Said HEY well take a little of both.

Keep going...why did New Jersey want one thing, and Virginia want another?

By the way, Tarsonis, you never answered.

Oh, & as above: You should be able to say that you love Jesus. However that also means that Muslims should be able to say "I love Allah". As long as it is individual prayer, it should be fine, however, some people can get offended by some words in prayers, when said aloud.
I know I was offended when kids from the local Christian school at my bus kept throwing mini bibles at me & yelling "Jesus loves you!".


sry i didnt see the post.. why am i not worshipping native American idols. because they lost. they got conquered. these people that try to change our way of life arent trying to conquer us theyre taking advantage of us. (please understand im not racist)

Goddistan]Similized World, I think we actually agree on just about everything. You just seem to explain yourself in better terms.I'll take that as a compliment :)
Incidentially, my only intent was to make sure you (or others) didn't believe that the theories we have about evolution, the Big Bang & whatnot, is a bunch of sketchy 'maybes', possibly hugely inaccurate or flat out wrong. Because that is definitivly not the case. Those theories are about as well-founded & likely as the existence of your great-grandmother. I'm sure most people don't doubt they had one of those.even though i have a d in bio i find it kinda sad that people dont realize that EVOLUTION CANT BE PROVED IN ALL CASES EITHER! THERES NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE. and y...ill tell u why CAUSE HUMANS LIVE TO SHORT OF LIVES WE CANT WATCH THINGS EVOLVE! WE JUST SAY OMG THAT HAS THE SAME THINGS SOME OTHER THING HAD 7 BILION OR HOWEVER LONG AGO. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD U TELL US CREATIONISTS WERE ATTACKING SOMETHING WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ATLEAST WERE NOT DEFENDING SOMETHING WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT!!!We observe things evolve every single day. Please cease this opportunity & visit talkorigins.org - because you really would benefit immensely from knowing what it is you're trying to criticise. Or in regular english: you're making an ass of yourself.. In public.

And please stop teh 1337 speak. It's beyond fucking annoying. When we forigners can write english, you bloody well can too.um ever heard of the missing link and ever wonder y evolution is still just a theory......because theres not enough evidence
and u ever hear that theres no scientific truth like say for instance we establish "scientificly" that the universe was created with out god. and then we go to some desolate world pic up a roc and it says on teh bottom made by god.....HOW MIND BLOWING WOULD THAT BE (and thats not caps in anger but in exclamation)Ever hear about laws of nature? Those are 'just theories' too. Most of them much less well-founded & thoroughly backed by physical evidence than evolution theory.

Incidentially, your statement is pointless. Evolution is a collection of mechanisms. The 'holes' you talk about are comparable to claiming that gravity is wrong, because noone knows the exact trajectory of every object in the universe.

Science can't say what caused the universe to exist. It can't be used to determine anything beyond the universe we inhabit, including things that don't obey the mechanics of the universe. If God created the universe, then God can't possibly be bound by this universe. Ergo, we can't use the scientific method to determine anything about God.hey ure ignorance for misunder standing what people say and think u know everything just came out the cracks im not talking about something created my man....im talking something created by nature...science... not touched by any inteligent creature (that we can prove exists) that how ever many years of erosion and compression just happen to form a rock that says in english made by god....well that would be pretty slim chance....By extension, you're recognising that it could happen naturally, and thus wouldn't be proof of God.
By the way, what was your point?

oh and btw the creation of the earth universe thing was just an example of a similar problem.....we cant prove how the universe was created...why because no humans were there werent there...we cant fully prove evolution because no one has been able to actually see the process we die to early...Do you believe I exist? There's practically no chance you've ever met me. The only evidence you have of my existence is my rants here on NSG. Hardly solid proof - or is it?
So, assuming I exist, do you believe that I'm human? Or maybe an alien? Or possibly a 300' squirrel with an oversized keyboard? Or do you perhaps believe I'm God?

The theories you're criticising all have a lot more evidence going for them than you have for my existence.un fortunatly we have things like the ACLU which want as all to have religion..just only their views so since its contriversal and not full proven....they dont teach itThe people who object to basic education about religions are very few indeed. Most countries with functioning public education systems does in fact teach the wee ones about the dominant world religions. They don't preach, and faith doesn't figure into it. It's simply to educate the kids about various cultures & world veiws. If you want IDism & such taught in public schools, then that's the option you have.

Unless, of course, you violently convert, exile or kill everyone who don't subscribe to your brand of religion. Remember that Catholics & most protestants don't believe in ID & creationism either.Well seeing as the flow of the posts have died down, i shall now revive them. The following is a quote from the constitution of the united states of america (and if you guys are in Britain, that might explain why these legal debates have been gowing no where).

1ST AMENDMENT Congress shall make no law respecting an establishement of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of.

Translation... Congress will not impose on anyones right to exercise religion.

Democrate translation... No religious institutions in any federal establishment sanctioned by the US governmentSo indoctrinating children into 1 particular religion isn't Congress making a law about the establishment of religion, and it isn't forcing people's children to "go to church"?
You were dropped on the head, right? Perhaps out the window even?True true... but however... The original founding of this Country(USA) is upon JudeoChristian teachings. This country was founded upon Religion. Personally if people dont like that.. I feel they can get out. Because America is a democracy. And the Majority of Americans are christians. The secular movement is being fueled by a minority. THey realize that Democracy wont work for them, so they go around that and go to the courts to attack the constitution judicially all because chief justice Jon marshal decided way back then that supreme court had that jurisdiction...the founding fathers never gave said they could. Marshal just assummed.Your personal belief is pretty much the exact opposite of what your founding fathers were trying to accomplish. If you knew just a tiny bit about your own culture (and there really isn't a lot of it), you'd know that your founding fathers were deathly scared of majority dictatorship, especially concerning religion. Back then it was because various Christian sub-sects killed eachother.

and to all the stuff about minority vs majority. I know its shitty. But you cant please everyone. Some one is always going to be unhappy.
So we never should have abolished slavery. When you get right down to it, that's what you're arguing.

Ah, reducio ad absurdum, how I love thee.

Keep going...why did New Jersey want one thing, and Virginia want another?

virginia wanted population cause they were bigger and new jersey wanted equal cause they were smaller. But at the constitutional convention. every one had equal rep. And things just dragged on and on.

and to all the stuff about minority vs majority. I know its shitty. But you cant please everyone. Some one is always going to be unhappy.

Yes, someone is always going to be unhappy, so you might as well do the right thing, instead of pandering to those who refuse to be reasonable. In this case, stop trying to get ID taught in science classes.

And seriously, just actually go and read up on evolution properly with an open mind. (But do it properly, by reading actual scientific texts.) If you do it with an open mind, I guarantee that you will change your opinion about this.

I'm sorry if this was traumatic for you, but the absurdity of their behaviour is funny.

To tell you the truth, it wasn't exactly traumatic. It was funny. I was offended on thier patronism, but they stopped when I began to repy "Anubis loves you" & other such phrases.

So we never should have abolished slavery. When you get right down to it, that's what you're arguing.

Ah, reducio ad absurdum, how I love thee.


hey dont put words in my mouth they taste nasty. This isnt people who came tried and lost in the issue of slavery. This is people ripped from their homelands against theyre will. And some people were nice enough to stick up for them and its a good thing cause this was beyond oppression it was just grotesque. and plus freeing the slaves was a political move.

Yes, someone is always going to be unhappy, so you might as well do the right thing, instead of pandering to those who refuse to be reasonable. In this case, stop trying to get ID taught in science classes.

And seriously, just actually go and read up on evolution properly with an open mind. (But do it properly, by reading actual scientific texts.) If you do it with an open mind, I guarantee that you will change your opinion about this.


coincidently i have read about it with an open mind and ive been over the fence on this issue a hundred times. and ive come to the conclusion that evolution theory and ID theory arent different, for evolution theory is PART of ID theory. because what if....and actually think about this....what all this discovery about the big bang and evolution.....what if thats how he did it...and were just discovering it in terms we can understand

virginia wanted population cause they were bigger and new jersey wanted equal cause they were smaller. But at the constitutional convention. every one had equal rep. And things just dragged on and on.

So, New Jersey hung on to defend their rights as a smaller group, a sort of minority. And thats a central theme of the constitution, to defend the rights of the minority.

Look at it this way. There are many more Chinese than us, so on the planet, Americans are a minority. Should we acquiesce to their decisions because there are of them? You can say "Not a valid comparison, they're a different nation", but if a boundary of sanctity extends around American self-determination that protects it from the superior numbers of China, why does not a similar barrier protect New Jersey from Viriginia? Or me from you?

(to all, I didn't choose China because I consider them evil or bad, just make salient the aspect of population difference)

I'll take that as a compliment :)
Incidentially, my only intent was to make sure you (or others) didn't believe that the theories we have about evolution, the Big Bang & whatnot, is a bunch of sketchy 'maybes', possibly hugely inaccurate or flat out wrong. Because that is definitivly not the case. Those theories are about as well-founded & likely as the existence of your great-grandmother. I'm sure most people don't doubt they had one of those.We observe things evolve every single day. Please cease this opportunity & visit talkorigins.org - because you really would benefit immensely from knowing what it is you're trying to criticise. Or in regular english: you're making an ass of yourself.. In public.

And please stop teh 1337 speak. It's beyond fucking annoying. When we forigners can write english, you bloody well can too.Ever hear about laws of nature? Those are 'just theories' too. Most of them much less well-founded & thoroughly backed by physical evidence than evolution theory.

Incidentially, your statement is pointless. Evolution is a collection of mechanisms. The 'holes' you talk about are comparable to claiming that gravity is wrong, because noone knows the exact trajectory of every object in the universe.

Science can't say what caused the universe to exist. It can't be used to determine anything beyond the universe we inhabit, including things that don't obey the mechanics of the universe. If God created the universe, then God can't possibly be bound by this universe. Ergo, we can't use the scientific method to determine anything about God.By extension, you're recognising that it could happen naturally, and thus wouldn't be proof of God.
By the way, what was your point?

Do you believe I exist? There's practically no chance you've ever met me. The only evidence you have of my existence is my rants here on NSG. Hardly solid proof - or is it?
So, assuming I exist, do you believe that I'm human? Or maybe an alien? Or possibly a 300' squirrel with an oversized keyboard? Or do you perhaps believe I'm God?

The theories you're criticising all have a lot more evidence going for them than you have for my existence.The people who object to basic education about religions are very few indeed. Most countries with functioning public education systems does in fact teach the wee ones about the dominant world religions. They don't preach, and faith doesn't figure into it. It's simply to educate the kids about various cultures & world veiws. If you want IDism & such taught in public schools, then that's the option you have.

Unless, of course, you violently convert, exile or kill everyone who don't subscribe to your brand of religion. Remember that Catholics & most protestants don't believe in ID & creationism either.So indoctrinating children into 1 particular religion isn't Congress making a law about the establishment of religion, and it isn't forcing people's children to "go to church"?
You were dropped on the head, right? Perhaps out the window even?Your personal belief is pretty much the exact opposite of what your founding fathers were trying to accomplish. If you knew just a tiny bit about your own culture (and there really isn't a lot of it), you'd know that your founding fathers were deathly scared of majority dictatorship, especially concerning religion. Back then it was because various Christian sub-sects killed eachother.


HEY WISE GUY. DONT GET MAD AT ME BECAUSE URE COUNTRY IS A BITCH FOR MINE.

So, if another student loves Baphomet, The Trafficer of Souls, and wants to tell you while you're trying to learn, he's just as right.

Go ahead let him......unless every one tells him to shut up. Thats not oppression thats common curtesy. back to my i love jesus rant if every one tells me to shut up....well most likely i will. but if only one person minds and everyone else is cool with it....tough cookies

....what all this discovery about the big bang and evolution.....what if thats how he did it...and were just discovering it in terms we can understand

You can't possibly think you're the first one to float this...

It could also have been space aliens, a cosmic egg, or Nyarlathahotep being funny, and all these are just as reasonable as your God, but none are scientifically testable, so they aren't science.

Evolution and, separately, the big bang, can be examined for falsifiable details, so they are science.

If you want to present evolution as a subset of Intelligent Design, their irreconcilability on this point only further magnifies the necessity of keeping them separate.

So, New Jersey hung on to defend their rights as a smaller group, a sort of minority. And thats a central theme of the constitution, to defend the rights of the minority.

Look at it this way. There are many more Chinese than us, so on the planet, Americans are a minority. Should we acquiesce to their decisions because there are of them? You can say "Not a valid comparison, they're a different nation", but if a boundary of sanctity extends around American self-determination that protects it from the superior numbers of China, why does not a similar barrier protect New Jersey from Viriginia? Or me from you?

(to all, I didn't choose China because I consider them evil or bad, just make salient the aspect of population difference)


AH but heres another thing. America and China are allies. Were warry of each other but we work together so technically we both make up the majority. same in america the majority isnt just one race domination all its not the whiteman kiling every one its a mix of all races working together. and if the minority can convince enough people to convert then theyle be the majority and can put what every they want on us. thats democracy whoever wins wins

YAY the third view point. Democratic Christian(i know im labeling sry) religion should be private. well doesnt the bible say proclaim your faith in all that you do and be a witness in all that you do so that all may know that jesus is god. yet you say you should hide it so that some people arent offended.
i know im the arrogant teenager who thinks he knows everything but i mean. if your gonna say you follow the religion than practice what you preach.

sry if ive offended you

I'm not offended at all. I am not being inconsistent here. It's just that I don't see how forcing I.D. down the throats of people of many different and diverse faiths and cultural backgrounds is in any way helping to promote the spread of Christianity. If anything, it just drives people away from Christ and reinforces negative stereotypes that the world at large already has of Christians. Jesus preached love and tolerence for all people. Forcing one and all into the same rigid little conceptual boxes is not preaching tolerence. More to the point, how is an I.D. taught kid supposed to compete academically in the related fields of biology or geology? You are limiting them academically by doing so.

Religion should be taught in the home.

You clearly do not understand separation of Church and State.

You cannot use the power of government to teach the specific beliefs of some religioius sects.

End of discussion.

damn server

I'm not offended at all. I am not being inconsistent here. It's just that I don't see how forcing I.D. down the throats of people of many different and diverse faiths and cultural backgrounds is in any way helping to promote the spread of Christianity. If anything, it just drives people away from Christ and reinforces negative stereotypes that the world at large already has of Christians. Jesus preached love and tolerence for all people. Forcing one and all into the same rigid little conceptual boxes is not preaching tolerence. More to the point, how is an I.D. taught kid supposed to compete academically in the related fields of biology or geology? You are limiting them academically by doing so.

Religion should be taught in the home.

its not forcing it down peoples throats.....its presenting it to someone and letting them make their own discisions. i get taught evolution in school....doesnt mean i have to believe i just have to know about it....same thing i get taught ID in school i dont have to agree with it but i know about it so im prepared for it if i encounter it in later life

You can't possibly think you're the first one to float this...

It could also have been space aliens, a cosmic egg, or Nyarlathahotep being funny, and all these are just as reasonable as your God, but none are scientifically testable, so they aren't science.

Evolution and, separately, the big bang, can be examined for falsifiable details, so they are science.

If you want to present evolution as a subset of Intelligent Design, their irreconcilability on this point only further magnifies the necessity of keeping them separate.


i know im not to first and i do see your point...but heres the one major problem....theology or philosophy......is not a core class...its not even offered at 90 percent of highschools...so where put it....history class...math class.....or where it fits the most.....science class

HEY WISE GUY. DONT GET MAD AT ME BECAUSE URE COUNTRY IS A BITCH FOR MINE.

Is it a flame to call you an embarrassment to the United States? If so, I might just court my first forum ban.

I've been as patient and fair as I can stomache, but I'm starting to suspect you're just a sanctimonious, wretched little jackass, inflated with mediocre thoughts and failed logic.

You're nothing more than the price we pay for free speech, you prick.

coincidently i have read about it with an open mind and ive been over the fence on this issue a hundred times. and ive come to the conclusion that evolution theory and ID theory arent different, for evolution theory is PART of ID theory. because what if....and actually think about this....what all this discovery about the big bang and evolution.....what if thats how he did it...and were just discovering it in terms we can understand

No, the theory of evolution is not part of ID theory. Not at all. Nor does it have anything to do with the big-bang.

And ID fails as a genuine scientific theory becuase it is palpably non-falsifiable. (Indeed, its more of an aesthetic judgement if anything, but at any rate, not science).

its not forcing it down peoples throats.....its presenting it to someone and letting them make their own discisions. i get taught evolution in school....doesnt mean i have to believe i just have to know about it....same thing i get taught ID in school i dont have to agree with it but i know about it so im prepared for it if i encounter it in later life

pshhht. If I ever had to get taught ID I'd walk out of the class room and sew for encroachment of religion. It would be a well earned F

i know im not to first and i do see your point...but heres the one major problem....theology or philosophy......is not a core class...its not even offered at 90 percent of highschools...so where put it....history class...math class.....or where it fits the most.....science class

It doesn't even belong there.

Is it a flame to call you an embarrassment to the United States? If so, I might just court my first forum ban.

I've been as patient and fair as I can stomache, but I'm starting to suspect you're just a sanctimonious, wretched little jackass, inflated with mediocre thoughts and failed logic.

You're nothing more than the price we pay for free speech, you prick.

No excuse me for loving this country... im not gonna let some one who lives 3000 miles away in britain talk bad about it... im fiercely patriotic and im sorry if that offends you... but if someones going to insult the integrity and dignity of this country to me directy im gonna give them and earful

It doesn't even belong there.

it belongs there better than it does anywhere else

hey dont put words in my mouth they taste nasty. This isnt people who came tried and lost in the issue of slavery. This is people ripped from their homelands against theyre will. And some people were nice enough to stick up for them and its a good thing cause this was beyond oppression it was just grotesque. and plus freeing the slaves was a political move.
Unfortunately, that's what you're arguing, whether you like it or not. It's a case of the majority taking away the rights of the minority, which you support. Tough luck that you don't like the reality of what you propose.

No excuse me for loving this country... im not gonna let some one who lives 3000 miles away in britain talk bad about it... im fiercely patriotic and im sorry if that offends you... but if someones going to insult the integrity and dignity of this country to me directy im gonna give them and earful

and the price for free speech was american lives... not having to put up with someone you dont like

Is it a flame to call you an embarrassment to the United States? If so, I might just court my first forum ban.


It's not worth it.

And I prefer my ID propents this way. They do more good than harm.

HEY WISE GUY. DONT GET MAD AT ME BECAUSE URE COUNTRY IS A BITCH FOR MINE.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Or in the modern vernacular..... You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Or try this one.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

See? Tolerance.

No excuse me for loving this country... im not gonna let some one who lives 3000 miles away in britain talk bad about it... im fiercely patriotic and im sorry if that offends you... but if someones going to insult the integrity and dignity of this country to me directy im gonna give them and earful

Don't hide behind patriotism, you ill-informed hypocrite. This country believes in the right to criticize at length, and he did so. You didn't give him an "earful", you made a retarded remark.

You're the only thing tarnishing the dignity of our country here. And for the record, Britain is far more our ally than China is.

EDIT (Not bashing China, Tarsonis just earlier referred to China as an American ally)

Unfortunately, that's what you're arguing, whether you like it or not. It's a case of the majority taking away the rights of the minority, which you support. Tough luck that you don't like the reality of what you propose.

i think ive repeatedly said that its shitty that the minority doesnt get heard... cause really i dont think theyre all that oppressed in the US right now... but Republicans controll house and senate so democrats dont get heard ... it sucks but the only way for everyone to be equal and fair is communism...which as we have learned(tienaman square)...does more harm then good

Sorry for the short bitchy post. I'm just pretty pissed over this whole thing, it makes me sick that a group of bible humping hillsmacktrards could even get this though. YES THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE BELEIVE IN A GOD- HOWEVER AMERICA IS A REPUBLIC WHICH MEANS REPRESENTATION FOR EVERYONE, FURTHERMORE AMERICA IS A "PROGRESSIVE" NATION MEANING IT TRYS TO CARE FOR IT'S PEOPLE AND GIVE EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR ALL. THIS MEANS IT CANNOT BE BIASED. If parents are so mad about their children learning something that does not include their religion.. why should people who have the same ammount of clout as their children have to suffer? I'll tell you now I'm a christian, however I don't think religion should hold science back any longer (or civil rights for that matter) this is the 21st century. those loosers have to grow up who support this. Not everyone beleives in the christian god. So you're all wrong who support this.

p.s. A supporter of ID please quote bash me back! I want to pwn!

it belongs there better than it does anywhere else

& no it does not, it belongs in a religion class where people with square in the box minds think.

and the price for free speech was american lives... not having to put up with someone you dont like

I'd trade you for a puddle of an Englishman's watery green shit, and call it a net gain.

Servicemen and women give their lives for our rights, yes. Unfortunately, listening to people like you (and I'm not referring to Christians) is the balance of the bill that we wouldn't have to be pay without people like you.

and the price for free speech was american lives... not having to put up with someone you dont like

In the last big battle for freedom, I seem to recall British lives been given for that selfsame right as well.

And who's your closest millitary ally at the moment? You know the only country in the world that commits troops in and quantity for the current overseas adventures? Eh?

Your knowledge of geo-politics, it seems, is as sketchy as your knowledge of science.

In the last big battle for freedom, I seem to recall British lives been given for that selfsame right as well.

And who's your closest millitary ally at the moment? You know the only country in the world that commits troops in and quantity for the current overseas adventures? Eh?

Your knowledge of geo-politics, it seems, is as sketchy as your knowledge of science.

*applaud*

Don't hide behind patriotism, you ill-informed hypocrite. This country believes in the right to criticize at length, and he did so. You didn't give him an "earful", you made a retarded remark.

You're the only thing tarnishing the dignity of our country here. And for the record, Britain is far more our ally than China is.

who said they werent... and though why he did critisize he also directly insulted it or did u not read his whole post... and just because ure a teacher doesnt mean u know everything... all respect i had for you since you seemed to be more intelligent than me just went out the window... because i dont hide behind anything...its what i stand upon... and even if i do hide behind patriotism atleast i have some...which you sir obviously do not... so you should try to go to berkley youd fit right in .....and go ahead and block me cause "frankly stella i dont give a damn"

i think ive repeatedly said that its shitty that the minority doesnt get heard... cause really i dont think theyre all that oppressed in the US right now... but Republicans controll house and senate so democrats dont get heard ... it sucks but the only way for everyone to be equal and fair is communism...which as we have learned(tienaman square)...does more harm then good

LMAO!
the only way to have total fairness would be anarchy without money.
either that or everyone being poor, and blind.

In the last big battle for freedom, I seem to recall British lives been given for that selfsame right as well.

And who's your closest millitary ally at the moment? You know the only country in the world that commits troops in and quantity for the current overseas adventures? Eh?

Your knowledge of geo-politics, it seems, is as sketchy as your knowledge of science.

and what last big battle is this sir?
because yes british lives were lost in our last battle for freedom...intresting thing though is theyre the ones we were fighting against.

who said they werent... and though why he did critisize he also directly insulted it or did u not read his whole post... and just because ure a teacher doesnt mean u know everything... all respect i had for you since you seemed to be more intelligent than me just went out the window... because i dont hide behind anything...its what i stand upon... and even if i do hide behind patriotism atleast i have some...which you sir obviously do not... so you should try to go to berkley youd fit right in .....and go ahead and block me cause "frankly stella i dont give a damn"

IT'S SCARLET

FRANKLY SCARLET I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!

LMAO!
the only way to have total fairness would be anarchy without money.
either that or everyone being poor, and blind.

cept that wouldnt be fair why cause i could kill the lot of you and no one could do anything about it? no laws = no justice system does that seem fair

and what last big battle is this sir?
because yes british lives were lost in our last battle for freedom...intresting thing though is theyre the ones we were fighting against.

Wait you go to berkley????
wow. pitty.

IT'S SCARLET

FRANKLY SCARLET I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!


IM IN HIGHSCHOOL!!!!!! DO YOU REALLY THINK IVE SEEN GONE WITH THE WIND!!!!!!!!!

This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Wait you go to berkley????
wow. pitty.


i go to berkley? where did u get that impression from me saiying berkley was full of flag bashing commies (a joke damnit dont get ure nickers in a twist) im still in highschool and i have a personal resentment against berkely though i will admit it is a prestigious education facility

IM IN HIGHSCHOOL!!!!!! DO YOU REALLY THINK IVE SEEN GONE WITH THE WIND!!!!!!!!!

*pat pat* I watched it in 8th grade. like 12 years ago. and that movie quote is from Casablanca. and her name is scarlet in the book.

....and ID is the worst idea ever.

coincidently i have read about it with an open mind and ive been over the fence on this issue a hundred times. and ive come to the conclusion that evolution theory and ID theory arent different, for evolution theory is PART of ID theory. because what if....and actually think about this....what all this discovery about the big bang and evolution.....what if thats how he did it...and were just discovering it in terms we can understandID flat out contradicts evolution. Not only would you benefit from educating yourself on just what the evolution theories are about, it seems you'd also benefit quite a bit from looking up what ID is about.

Judging from the next quote though, I doubt you're interested in familiarizing yourself with the topics you're trying to debate. But I'd be delighted if you'd prove me wrong.HEY WISE GUY. DONT GET MAD AT ME BECAUSE URE COUNTRY IS A BITCH FOR MINE.Heh. I'm guessing that means you ran out of silly arguments then?

@ Saint Curie - no need to panic. One knob doesn't ruin my impression of Americans... Unless you put him in office twice.

who said they werent... and though why he did critisize he also directly insulted it or did u not read his whole post... and just because ure a teacher doesnt mean u know everything... all respect i had for you since you seemed to be more intelligent than me just went out the window... because i dont hide behind anything...its what i stand upon... and even if i do hide behind patriotism atleast i have some...which you sir obviously do not... so you should try to go to berkley youd fit right in .....and go ahead and block me cause "frankly stella i dont give a damn"

You called Britain our "bitch" which is not how you speak to an ally.

Second, he criticized our educational system as disfunctional. Guess what, so did President Bush. So, if Britain should be bashed for saying it, so should our President. So, let's hear it, Tarsonis. Be consistent, please just once.

I've taught in our educational system and I agree with him, and you're a product of it, so we BOTH seem to indicate his inditement of the U.S. school system has some merit, each in our own way.

*pat pat* I watched it in 8th grade. like 12 years ago. and that movie quote is from Casablanca. and her name is scarlet in the book.

....and ID is the worst idea ever.

are u trying to provoke me?

You called Britain our "bitch" which is not how you speak to an ally.

Second, he criticized our educational system as disfunctional. Guess what, so did President Bush. So, if Britain should be bashed for saying it, so should our President. So, let's hear it, Tarsonis. Be consistent, please just once.

I've taught in our educational system and I agree with him, and you're a product of it, so we BOTH seem to indicate his inditement of the U.S. school system has some merit, each in our own way.

okay now read past the first paragraph

You called Britain our "bitch" which is not how you speak to an ally.

Second, he criticized our educational system as disfunctional. Guess what, so did President Bush. So, if Britain should be bashed for saying it, so should our President. So, let's hear it, Tarsonis. Be consistent, please just once.

I've taught in our educational system and I agree with him, and you're a product of it, so we BOTH seem to indicate his inditement of the U.S. school system has some merit, each in our own way.

/agree I don not see how he/she can call the british education system dysfunctional.. obvously he does not know current events in his own country and how King George went and ruined our already floundering education system by making it practicly bankrupt.

This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Only more amusing.

okay now read past the first paragraph


and deny what i said was true....concidering that they jump when we say to and that actually when FDR went to tell Churchill about his idea for the united nations...churchill willingly stood theyre naked to here about it

are u trying to provoke me?

Why, yes, yes I am good sir =D but her name is scarlet and trust me on this one.

and deny what i said was true....concidering that they jump when we say to and that actually when FDR went to tell Churchill about his idea for the united nations...churchill willingly stood theyre naked to here about it

AND THIRDLY I WAS PISSED OFF!! THERE FOR WHAT COMES OUT OF MY MOUTH HAS NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!!!

Why, yes, yes I am good sir =D but her name is scarlet and trust me on this one.


i was talking about ure remark on ID :-P

AND THIRDLY I WAS PISSED OFF!! THERE FOR WHAT COMES OUT OF MY MOUTH HAS NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!!!

Your typing on a keyboard, unless you are speaking what you are writing outloud to the monitor. silly goose ^^;

and deny what i said was true....concidering that they jump when we say to and that actually when FDR went to tell Churchill about his idea for the united nations...churchill willingly stood theyre naked to here about it
Naked? You're thinking about that episode of Time Squad, not reality.

and what last big battle is this sir?
because yes british lives were lost in our last battle for freedom...intresting thing though is theyre the ones we were fighting against.

Ah, I see the problem, you actually refuse to read anything that was published after The Origin of Species.

Let me bring you up to speed on the twentieth century, for your edification:

During the twentieth century, as part of a very close alliance often referred to as the "special relationship" the US and Britian and its commonwealth fought hand in hand to defeat: fascism, Nazism, totalitarianism and communism. It was a long and costly process, so I won't bore you with the details, but suffice to say a lot of lives were lost on both sides, and great risks were taken by both nations, to ensure the future of societies that value western liberalism (in the classic sense) and scientific enlightment (something about which you apparently do not care.)

@ Saint Curie - no need to panic. One knob doesn't ruin my impression of Americans... Unless you put him in office twice.

I dream, uneasily and more oft, of times ahead. I see the U.S. Flag, once welcomed, mounted only to warships, and casting a feared shadow across once old friends.

I see a time when people don't come here, not to teach or to learn, not to trade or to visit.

I see a time when I can't go to Germany to visit an old Professor, because my passport isn't welcome

I see a time when being American is a reason to be suspected, but not admired.

I'm tired of these dreams, and when I wake up, I watch people like Sons of Tarsonis, building that world with quick hands and earnest zeal.

ID flat out contradicts evolution. Not only would you benefit from educating yourself on just what the evolution theories are about, it seems you'd also benefit quite a bit from looking up what ID is about.

Judging from the next quote though, I doubt you're interested in familiarizing yourself with the topics you're trying to debate. But I'd be delighted if you'd prove me wrong.Heh. I'm guessing that means you ran out of silly arguments then?

@ Saint Curie - no need to panic. One knob doesn't ruin my impression of Americans... Unless you put him in office twice.


Firstly im sorry i snapped! seccondly

the theory of evolution by natural selection( a good read really if anyone has read it besides me)

servival of the fitest- organisms best suited to the environment survive and reproduce while the others who are not suited die off. the adaptations that allowed the animal to survive will be expressed also in theyre offspring. thus leading to a more advanced species.
well in short thats building something up from nothing.
well couldnt building adam up from clay metaphoricaly mean the same thing as that

AND THIRDLY I WAS PISSED OFF!! THERE FOR WHAT COMES OUT OF MY MOUTH HAS NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!!!

You try to justify your remarks, then admit they were not thought through.

oh and the only reason bush got elected twice was because he was better than the alternative

You try to justify your remarks, then admit they were not thought through.


dude do you know how to laugh... at a joke..or sarcasm...

my comment about being pissed was supposed to be funny...but apparently mister smartypants didnt get it

my comment about being pissed was supposed to be funny...but apparently mister smartypants didnt get it


and if u havent noticed i appologized

okay now read past the first paragraph

I went back and reread his entire post. His criticism that I referenced occured in the 6th paragraph. It was no worse than what our President has said about our educational system.

What the hell are you talking about?

Firstly im sorry i snapped! seccondly

the theory of evolution by natural selection( a good read really if anyone has read it besides me)

servival of the fitest- organisms best suited to the environment survive and reproduce while the others who are not suited die off. the adaptations that allowed the animal to survive will be expressed also in theyre offspring. thus leading to a more advanced species.
well in short thats building something up from nothing.
well couldnt building adam up from clay metaphoricaly mean the same thing as that

we all know this.
This is why ID is wrong. Because god did not tell these things to happen they do it by themselves. If he was a belevolent god he would have made everything live forever.. heck.. people wouldn't die (I wish). What they teach is AMAZINGLY wrong and aganist the const. and the seperation of church and state. While the church is not making laws it is still having some pull on education which is wrong. I would like to see the day when they begin to teach Muslim ideaoligy in schools. Think you crazed christians would get a taste of your own medicine and go around and say how unfair it is. phsst. rubbish.

I dream, uneasily and more oft, of times ahead. I see the U.S. Flag, once welcomed, mounted only to warships, and casting a feared shadow across once old friends.

I see a time when people don't come here, not to teach or to learn, not to trade or to visit.

I see a time when I can't go to Germany to visit an old Professor, because my passport isn't welcome

I see a time when being American is a reason to be suspected, but not admired.

I'm tired of these dreams, and when I wake up, I watch people like Sons of Tarsonis, building that world with quick hands and earnest zeal.

god damnit.....i give up on this species. 1 germany has got nothing to do with us...2 i love going to europe 3. u dont like what i am fine ill go back to where im welcome if we dont come to europe its cause uve chased us out

dude do you know how to laugh... at a joke..or sarcasm...

Pull up my posts and you might find I'm not without a sense of humor. But a requisite element of any joke is some kind of wit or purposefully obtuse lack thereof.

Firstly im sorry i snapped! seccondly

the theory of evolution by natural selection( a good read really if anyone has read it besides me)

servival of the fitest- organisms best suited to the environment survive and reproduce while the others who are not suited die off. the adaptations that allowed the animal to survive will be expressed also in theyre offspring. thus leading to a more advanced species.
well in short thats building something up from nothing.
well couldnt building adam up from clay metaphoricaly mean the same thing as that

No:

Two things:

Evolution doesn't lead to a more "advanced" species - that's a subjective value judgement. It leads to species that are better suited (fitter) for their current environment. You can see this with things like convergent evolution,
e.g. dolphins are shaped like fishes (to a point).

Secondly, building adam up from clay could not be a metaphor for this. Evolution is a random process. There is no plan. No "end product" if you will.

Firstly im sorry i snapped! seccondly

the theory of evolution by natural selection( a good read really if anyone has read it besides me)

servival of the fitest- organisms best suited to the environment survive and reproduce while the others who are not suited die off. the adaptations that allowed the animal to survive will be expressed also in theyre offspring. thus leading to a more advanced species.
well in short thats building something up from nothing.
well couldnt building adam up from clay metaphoricaly mean the same thing as that
No wonder you have a D in biology. Your grasp of the ToE is as tenuous as Natalie Wood's grasp on swimming.


God that was tasteless.

Firstly im sorry i snapped! seccondly

the theory of evolution by natural selection( a good read really if anyone has read it besides me)

servival of the fitest- organisms best suited to the environment survive and reproduce while the others who are not suited die off. the adaptations that allowed the animal to survive will be expressed also in theyre offspring. thus leading to a more advanced species.
well in short thats building something up from nothing.
well couldnt building adam up from clay metaphoricaly mean the same thing as that

A valid point, actually. Who's to say that evolution is not
the method God used for creating the earth? It's not as though God is bound to any of our man-made concepts of time.

But this is off the subject a bit.

we all know this.
This is why ID is wrong. Because god did not tell these things to happen they do it by themselves. If he was a belevolent god he would have made everything live forever.. heck.. people wouldn't die (I wish). What they teach is AMAZINGLY wrong and aganist the const. and the seperation of church and state. While the church is not making laws it is still having some pull on education which is wrong. I would like to see the day when they begin to teach Muslim ideaoligy in schools. Think you crazed christians would get a taste of your own medicine and go around and say how unfair it is. phsst. rubbish.

ah and if people lived forever mate....just imagine the population boost today... see what ure talking about living is completely different from what we talk about as living. we talk about living spiritually not physicaly... jesus saves spiritually not physically (per se) god is a benevolant creator just not in a way that works for you... if u keep thinking in the hear and now how can u ever see the future

oh and the only reason bush got elected twice was because he was better than the alternative

the reason King George got elected twice was because my love John was too liberal for all of those farm/crude hut dwellers out in the mid-smacktard states. Have you seen an electorial map? All the major money producting sectors of the country went Blue. Most of the major cities.. everything in even red states went blue. Except Texas.. but who cares about texas? I mean really. However, my husband John.. he would have made a fine president.. he was so selfless he was willing to dicount his own religion for the sake of the common man! OR WAIT! isint that what politicians are suposed to do!? OH MY!? THEY ARE!

ps John is not my husband =( I wish he was though..

A valid point, actually. Who's to say that evolution is not
the method God used for creating the earth? It's not as though God is bound to any of our man-made concepts of time.

YAY SOMEONE WHO ISNT TRYING TO DEGRADE MY INTELLIGENCE!! I WOULD KISS YOU IF I COULD!!!(well no not really)

A valid point, actually. Who's to say that evolution is not
the method God used for creating the earth? It's not as though God is bound to any of our man-made concepts of time.

But this is off the subject a bit.

Who's to say it wasn't Space Aliens or a left-over A.I. from another universe? I have no problem with any "who's to say" premise, I just wouldn't make them part of a science curriculum.

the reason King George got elected twice was because my love John was too liberal for all of those farm/crude hut dwellers out in the mid-smacktard states. Have you seen an electorial map? All the major money producting sectors of the country went Blue. Most of the major cities.. everything in even red states went blue. Except Texas.. but who cares about texas? I mean really. However, my husband John.. he would have made a fine president.. he was so selfless he was willing to dicount his own religion for the sake of the common man! OR WAIT! isint that what politicians are suposed to do!? OH MY!? THEY ARE!

ps John is not my husband =( I wish he was though..


john couldnt make a decision he voted against funding for armor and body armor for our troops in iraq and then he went and bitched about their dieing..u wanna support kerry thats fine...but im glad he and his agendasized bitch of a wife arent in the white house

ah and if people lived forever mate....just imagine the population boost today... see what ure talking about living is completely different from what we talk about as living. we talk about living spiritually not physicaly... jesus saves spiritually not physically (per se) god is a benevolant creator just not in a way that works for you... if u keep thinking in the hear and now how can u ever see the future

You're going off on tangents, I am just addressing the issues as they come.

and please stop using expressions from England as you just dissed them.

Originally Posted by Myotisinia
A valid point, actually. Who's to say that evolution is not
the method God used for creating the earth? It's not as though God is bound to any of our man-made concepts of time.

This could be true.. PROBALLY NOT THOUGH

however, if he did it than still teach EVOLUTION not the watered down fake phony lame attempt at it that looser-christians who make me look bad call evolution.

Who's to say it wasn't Space Aliens or a left-over A.I. from another universe? I have no problem with any "who's to say" premise, I just wouldn't make them part of a science curriculum.


you know maybe it was fuzz balls....giant fuzz balls that just shat humans out. we were created by fuz ball dung.......u play the what if game and u wont get any where

john couldnt make a decision he voted against funding for armor and body armor for our troops in iraq and then he went and bitched about their dieing..u wanna support kerry thats fine...but im glad he and his agendasized bitch of a wife arent in the white house

I'm going to slap you.
He made a good move by doing that to the Iraq war.. I would have done the same sabatoge the presidents efforts to get your idea out there.. hello? Doesnt that sound good? and those poor soldiers should have had armour in the first place.. which is this presidents downfall for not presenting the issue to congress before the war. HMMM!?? HMMM?!?

You're going off on tangents, I am just addressing the issues as they come.

and please stop using expressions from England as you just dissed them.



This could be true.. PROBALLY NOT THOUGH

however, if he did it than still teach EVOLUTION not the watered down fake phony lame attempt at it that looser-christians who make me look bad call evolution.


one britains have always made fun of americans and americans have always made fun of britains...where did people forget this....and 2 im going off on tangents cause you said something that told me u didnt fully grasp the christian religion and yet you still said we were stupid

you know maybe it was fuzz balls....giant fuzz balls that just shat humans out. we were created by fuz ball dung.......u play the what if game and u wont get any where

But thats the point, your God is in the "who's to say" category, right next to the fuzz excrement. He might be real, absolutely, but in that regard he's no more reasonable than airborne pasta gods or your fuzzballs. That's the whole point.

I'm going to slap you.
He made a good move by doing that to the Iraq war.. I would have done the same sabatoge the presidents efforts to get your idea out there.. hello? Doesnt that sound good? and those poor soldiers should have had armour in the first place.. which is this presidents downfall for not presenting the issue to congress before the war. HMMM!?? HMMM?!?

or maybe the democrats need to get over the fact that they lost...they sabotaged our troops and theyre dieing... they need to realize were not leaving...

one britains have always made fun of americans and americans have always made fun of britains...where did people forget this....and 2 im going off on tangents cause you said something that told me u didnt fully grasp the christian religion and yet you still said we were stupid

There are Christians on this board that might feel you don't fully grasp the Christian religion. Maybe its an unfounded assumption, but I'd put money on it.

But thats the point, your God is in the "who's to say" category, right next to the fuzz excrement. He might be real, absolutely, but in that regard he's no more reasonable than airborne pasta gods or your fuzzballs. That's the whole point.

but the problem at hand how does ID get taught to students?
any solutions?

you know maybe it was fuzz balls....giant fuzz balls that just shat humans out. we were created by fuz ball dung.......u play the what if game and u wont get any where
Go to bed, kid. You're not even remotely coherent anymore.

There are Christians on this board that might feel you don't fully grasp the Christian religion. Maybe its an unfounded assumption, but I'd put money on it.

some one tell me what i dont grasp about the christian religion...

cause its really quite simple......god loves you...but do to are nature we sin against him... god realized this and sent his son to die for us....now if we except his sacrifice our sins are forgiven and we are able to enter heaven. but if our sins our unforgiven we cant get in....and unfortunately the only alternative is to burn

one britains have always made fun of americans and americans have always made fun of britains...where did people forget this....and 2 im going off on tangents cause you said something that told me u didnt fully grasp the christian religion and yet you still said we were stupid

OH DEAR! NO! YOUR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON MY ACTIONS!
BAD!
I fully grasp MY interperation on christian religion. I don't need anyone elses interperation of how I interperate my personal relationship with god. thanks..

Maybe I'm going to interperate yours.. :rolleyes:

Go to bed, kid. You're not even remotely coherent anymore.

it was joke goddamnit

but the problem at hand how does ID get taught to students?
any solutions?

The problem to many is the idea of teaching ID to begin with.

Does your version of ID include the premise of a Judeo-Christian God, or can the "Intelligence" be of any concept, including non-religious ones?

If it includes the idea of a Christian God, it already violates the constitution as you admitted to earlier.

some one tell me what i dont grasp about the christian religion...

cause its really quite simple......god loves you...but do to are nature we sin against him... god realized this and sent his son to die for us....now if we except his sacrifice our sins are forgiven and we are able to enter heaven. but if our sins our unforgiven we cant get in....and unfortunately the only alternative is to burn

This is a major problem I have with stupid christianity (I know I just called my religion stupid =O)
What if you are so old when you die that you can't get out of bed to confess and you die with sins on your back still? I guess disabled people go to hell if they cannot get to chuch either. poor things =(

OH DEAR! NO! YOUR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON MY ACTIONS!
BAD!
I fully grasp MY interperation on christian religion. I don't need anyone elses interperation of how I interperate my personal relationship with god. thanks..

Maybe I'm going to interperate yours.. :rolleyes:

but does YOUR interpretation coincide with the writen word of the christian religin??

some one tell me what i dont grasp about the christian religion...

cause its really quite simple......god loves you...but do to are nature we sin against him... god realized this and sent his son to die for us....now if we except his sacrifice our sins are forgiven and we are able to enter heaven. but if our sins our unforgiven we cant get in....and unfortunately the only alternative is to burn

To realize something it to become aware of something you weren't already aware of. So at what point was God unaware of something?

This is a major problem I have with stupid christianity (I know I just called my religion stupid =O)
What if you are so old when you die that you can't get out of bed to confess and you die with sins on your back still? I guess disabled people go to hell if they cannot get to chuch either. poor things =(

well concidering confesion is only done in the catholic church...and in those cases a priest comes to you. but for the protestants... all you have to say is god forgive me...he knows what youve done...and that can be done even if ure paralized from the next down

To realize something it to become aware of something you weren't already aware of. So at what point was God unaware of something?

okay bad word choice....sue me

but does YOUR interpretation coincide with the writen word of the christian religin??
Who cares if it does
Everybodys does.. yours, my mothers, the popes.. they all do.. it's human nature.. thoughts of sex are aganist it. having sex for pleasure are aganist it. ANY religion is how you take it & lets not remember religion lies in the will of the people so I think we're able to customize it to our likings. And if gos loves us he would say "it's alright" for everything.. people make him out to be the biggest baby ever. Either that or Bi-polar.

or maybe the democrats need to get over the fact that they lost...they sabotaged our troops and theyre dieing... they need to realize were not leaving...
Maybe you need to realize a few things .... after you educate yourself on this subject.
It's a tangent, and a hijack to further insist on this subject, so i'll surmise by saying that you don't apparently know f*ck about that subject, so clear the "talking points" off your attentive agenda.
And the reason the democrats are forcing it is that there is an extreme level of bullsh*t the current administration has used in its
AGENDA
since even BEFORE 9/11 that the sensible political manipulation is the one that is garnering the most attention for it right now.
If you need help in your self-education, there are plenty here capable of doing so.
I'm offering services as well. It's kind of embarassing for me to see your apparent perspective on this, so don't just assume that my offer is a selfless act.

The problem to many is the idea of teaching ID to begin with.

Does your version of ID include the premise of a Judeo-Christian God, or can the "Intelligence" be of any concept, including non-religious ones?

If it includes the idea of a Christian God, it already violates the constitution as you admitted to earlier.

ure procrastinating.....a solution that would let inteligent design theory...which is only that the universe was created by an intelligent being....its pretty generic...how can that be tought in schools too?

This is a major problem I have with stupid christianity (I know I just called my religion stupid =O)
What if you are so old when you die that you can't get out of bed to confess and you die with sins on your back still? I guess disabled people go to hell if they cannot get to chuch either. poor things =(

I believe that disabled people are actually condemned to hell anyway owing to their disability. Church attendence is rather a moot point for them.

.. why am i not worshipping native American idols. because they lost. they got conquered. (please understand im not racist)

If you said this in front of Jesus Christ (as you envision him), what do you think he would say?

What do you think it says about your concept of choice of worship?

Maybe you need to realize a few things .... after you educate yourself on this subject.
It's a tangent, and a hijack to further insist on this subject, so i'll surmise by saying that you don't apparently know f*ck about that subject, so clear the "talking points" off your attentive agenda.
And the reason the democrats are forcing it is that there is an extreme level of bullsh*t the current administration has used in its
AGENDA
since even BEFORE 9/11 that the sensible political manipulation is the one that is garnering the most attention for it right now.
If you need help in your self-education, there are plenty here capable of doing so.
I'm offering services as well. It's kind of embarassing for me to see your apparent perspective on this, so don't just assume that my offer is a selfless act.
and now why do you assume i dont know anything about this....maybe ive read up on it and came to my own decision...just cause i came to a different decision doesnt mean i dont know about it so do me a favor kiss my ass.....

ure procrastinating.....a solution that would let inteligent design theory...which is only that the universe was created by an intelligent being....its pretty generic...how can that be tought in schools too?

Intellignet be-- THE UNIVERSE
OKAY... NO. IF GOD MADE THE UNIVERSE THAT MEANS ALL THE ALIEN SPECIES GO TO HEAVEN TOO AND THAT THEY ALL BELEIVE IN SOME SORT OF CHRISTIANITY
ps random fact: our universe is going to end in 20 billion years

and now why do you assume i dont know anything about this....maybe ive read up on it and came to my own decision...just cause i came to a different decision doesnt mean i dont know about it so do me a favor kiss my ass.....

He's trying to help you. Really. Consider it.

okay bad word choice....sue me

Your word choice is a symptom of flawed logic. I have no cause of action to sue you at this time, as you've made no communication of any defammatory falsehood to a third party in such a way that I am damaged.

Your falsehoods have all been innocuous, if pervasive and constant.

i dont sit there and except every thing that holleywood and the News shows throw at me Y u ask because its easy to realize that they news is biased against the right wing americans... i get my information from actualy reports released by congress......not micheal moore....jackass

Your word choice is a symptom of flawed logic. I have no cause of action to sue you at this time, as you've made no communication of any defammatory falsehood to a third party in such a way that I am damaged.

Your falsehoods have all been innocuous, if pervasive and constant.

I love you, I truly do... I should just get a divorce from my husband and marry you. *sigh*:p

ure procrastinating.....a solution that would let inteligent design theory...which is only that the universe was created by an intelligent being....its pretty generic...how can that be tought in schools too?

On the one hand, I'm impressed you actually spelled "procrastinating" correctly. On the other hand, you clearly don't understand what the word means.

I'm starting to suspect you're somebody's "Jesussaves"-esque puppet.

i dont sit there and except every thing that holleywood and the News shows throw at me Y u ask because its easy to realize that they news is biased against the right wing americans... i get my information from actualy reports released by congress......not micheal moore....jackass
That sir, is because right wing america is the accepting progressive machiene of the country, it protects culture and pronotes happiness, and a stable economy and no loss of american life in a war. Whaccha got left wing?!

Your word choice is a symptom of flawed logic. I have no cause of action to sue you at this time, as you've made no communication of any defammatory falsehood to a third party in such a way that I am damaged.

Your falsehoods have all been innocuous, if pervasive and constant.

okay now ure just getting annoying.... ive got it you all think that because im a concertive republican wasp im an idiot and dont know shit....yet im still standing here and aint backin down .....y cause none of you have given me anything substantial as to why i should.....its all the same....ure an idiot u dont know shit shut up.....some one actually try to convince me for a change...thatly be a the day

i dont sit there and except every thing that holleywood and the News shows throw at me Y u ask because its easy to realize that they news is biased against the right wing americans... i get my information from actualy reports released by congress......not micheal moore....jackass

Who is this directed at?

No excuse me for loving this country... im not gonna let some one who lives 3000 miles away in britain talk bad about it... im fiercely patriotic and im sorry if that offends you... but if someones going to insult the integrity and dignity of this country to me directy im gonna give them and earfulIf I somehow assaulted your nation with that post, it was entirely unintentional. I stand by what I said, however, and after reading my post again, I still fail to see how it can possibly be offensive to your national pride. Sure, I made quite a few snide remarks about you, and you've worked hard to earn every one of them. But can't see in what way any of the post could be interpreted as an attack on your nation. Perhaps you could explain? .. Then again, you probably can't.who said they werent... and though why he did critisize he also directly insulted it or did u not read his whole post... and just because ure a teacher doesnt mean u know everything... all respect i had for you since you seemed to be more intelligent than me just went out the window... because i dont hide behind anything...its what i stand upon... and even if i do hide behind patriotism atleast i have some...which you sir obviously do not... so you should try to go to berkley youd fit right in .....and go ahead and block me cause "frankly stella i dont give a damn"Patriotism means standing up for your nations ideals. It doesn't mean blind adherence to whatever your current administration is doing & it doesn't mean blindly protecting anything. On the contrary.
Don't confuse Nationalism with patriotism. The two are usually opposites.

That said, I'll attack whatever nation I please. This is an international forum. If you can't handle debating forigners, you have no business here.I dream, uneasily and more oft, of times ahead. I see the U.S. Flag, once welcomed, mounted only to warships, and casting a feared shadow across once old friends.

I see a time when people don't come here, not to teach or to learn, not to trade or to visit.

I see a time when I can't go to Germany to visit an old Professor, because my passport isn't welcome

I see a time when being American is a reason to be suspected, but not admired.

I'm tired of these dreams, and when I wake up, I watch people like Sons of Tarsonis, building that world with quick hands and earnest zeal.I hate to say this, but I share your nightmares.
America used to stand as a shining beacon of liberty, tolerance & justice. These days, most people I socialize with consider America a rogue terrorist nation, on the fasttrack back to the darkages.

People here snicker when the Shrub rants about the axis of evil. Most believe the axis of evil is the US.but the problem at hand how does ID get taught to students?
any solutions?Either keep it out of public education, or take it up in philosophy, social sciences or religious ED. I know you lot don't have the latter, but what's to stop you from making such a course?ure procrastinating.....a solution that would let inteligent design theory...which is only that the universe was created by an intelligent being....its pretty generic...how can that be tought in schools too?ID is not a theory. The scientific method cannot be applied to it, thus is can never become a theory. For something to be raised to a theory, it has to be supported by observations, it has to have made successful predictions, and it has to be within the bounds of the scientific method. ID can't predict anything. It can't be supported by observations, and it isn't within the bounds of the scientific method.i dont sit there and except every thing that holleywood and the News shows throw at me Y u ask because its easy to realize that they news is biased against the right wing americans... i get my information from actualy reports released by congress......not micheal moore....jackassGlad you got that off your chest. Shall we return to the topic at hand now?

okay now ure just getting annoying.... ive got it you all think that because im a concertive republican wasp im an idiot and dont know shit....yet im still standing here and aint backin down .....y cause none of you have given me anything substantial as to why i should.....its all the same....ure an idiot u dont know shit shut up.....some one actually try to convince me for a change...thatly be a the day

HOW DARE YOU TALK DOWN TO HER/HIM LIKE THAT!
bad! listen to the person with the comical come-backs that make you look like a pseduo-smacktard!

That sir, is because right wing america is the accepting progressive machiene of the country, it protects culture and pronotes happiness, and a stable economy and no loss of american life in a war. Whaccha got left wing?!

well one....if u honestly expect no american lifeloss in a war...you got another thing commen sister.....cause theyre will always be loss of life in war.....thats what happens....and ive go a new way of looking at things....instead of saying they got killed how bout we say they gave their life....pay a little homage to them...be proud your son died in the service of his country...not protest to the president cause your son died for a cause you dont believe in

HOW DARE YOU TALK DOWN TO HER/HIM LIKE THAT!
bad! listen to the person with the comical come-backs that make you look like a pseduo-smacktard!


sorry mother

okay now ure just getting annoying.... ive got it you all think that because im a concertive republican wasp im an idiot and dont know shit....yet im still standing here and aint backin down .....y cause none of you have given me anything substantial as to why i should.....its all the same....ure an idiot u dont know shit shut up.....some one actually try to convince me for a change...thatly be a the day

First, don't confuse obstinance with conviction.

Second, several people have presented numerous well-supported, coherent, sound arguments that reveal glaringly erronious statements on your part. If you don't believe what I say, fine, but a lot of other people have made some strong points here. Accusing all of them of only making ad hominem attacks is weak and false.

To realize something it to become aware of something you weren't already aware of. So at what point was God unaware of something?
"God" was unaware of some of the issues of "Satan" around Job, for one, as stated in the Bible ....

Unless "god"'s keen on trickery, which is debatable ...

Job 7
KJ:
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? (....)
NIV:
The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" (....)
Living:
"Where have you come from?" the Lord asked Satan. (....)
NRSV:
The Lord said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" (....)
--
I've got a sh*tload of these kindsa things on file elsewhere. D'rat that i don't have them exactly handy ...

Okay, I read the first three or four pages, then skipped to the 25th... so I might be repeating something, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

First off, I'll put my religion/positions up front. I'm Buddhist, and I'm far left. I firmly believe in evolution.

Okay. Now, the problem I see here is the pro-creationists, who are all christians as far as I can tell, are taking the bible MUCH too literally.

I believe in Jesus. Insofar as I believe that he existed, and that he spread the right message -- peace, love, and all that groovy stuff. I DON'T believe he walked on water, or turned water to wine.

Now apply my reasoning there to the rest of the Bible. I believe that the fundamental message of the Bible -- peace, love, happiness, etc -- is a good one. I DON'T believe any of it should be taken literally, or that most of it is remotely true. Okay, some of it is historically accurate, but still, I think too much of it is either metaphoric or just bullshit.

My whole family are Bible-Belt christians, some Southern Babtists, mostly just nondenominational christians. So don't accuse me of not knowing about the Bible.



My whole point here is that all you pro-creationists need to take the Bible with a grain of salt. Look at the MESSAGES, not the TEXT ITSELF. The Bible predates modern science by a lot, and that is why it has so much stuff in it that doesn't apply today. Do you go out and sacrifice a lamb every weekend? Didn't think so. The Bible was written to tell people how they should live, and to try to explain why things were how they were. Science has disproved a lot of their version of events. But later science may disprove a lot of today's science. The Bible (the parts of it that tell why/how things are how they are) was written to offer up a (then) plausible theory on existance. Stop using it to back things up. It's no more relivant than the theory that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

to the guy who said america stood for liberty tolerance justice....what is tolerance...what is liberty and what is justice....i ask this? can u answer

HOW DARE YOU TALK DOWN TO HER/HIM LIKE THAT!
bad! listen to the person with the comical come-backs that make you look like a pseduo-smacktard!

I'm a "him" (if indeed I'm who you were referencing), and if my wife runs off with your husband, we can get married. I call left side of the bed, and take ownership of laundry and dishes, but I don't dust, clean windows, or cook.

and now why do you assume i dont know anything about this....maybe ive read up on it and came to my own decision...just cause i came to a different decision doesnt mean i dont know about it so do me a favor kiss my ass.....
Then you came to a conclusion on either incomplete or inaccurate information, or your own intellect blocked you from reaching the conclusion that coincides with the facts.
So kiss your own ass.
Or am i too late?

EDIT:
I should also add that i pointed out why a person could assume you don't know anything about this. I was/am giving creedence to the idea that you were mis- or un-informed, not a talking point parrot lackey.
My bad?

well one....if u honestly expect no american lifeloss in a war...you got another thing commen sister.....cause theyre will always be loss of life in war.....thats what happens....and ive go a new way of looking at things....instead of saying they got killed how bout we say they gave their life....pay a little homage to them...be proud your son died in the service of his country...not protest to the president cause your son died for a cause you dont believe in
...my son did not die in combat and if he did I would be extremly pissed because I'm never letting him join the army because a civilized country should not need one. However, it is necessary.. so it's alright. but not my children... thats the stupidest way to die.. for your country pffft. I would only be alright to die for my country if it was what it advertises it is "Liberty and Justice for all" than maybe if that was fulfilled I would be alright with losing a child/friend to a war. and hey.. I'd be willing to die too. but lately.. it's pretty dumb.

I'd call the recuriter and tell him my son was gay... is my plan. he had more sence though than to join the army.

Okay, I read the first three or four pages, then skipped to the 25th... so I might be repeating something, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

First off, I'll put my religion/positions up front. I'm Buddhist, and I'm far left. I firmly believe in evolution.

Okay. Now, the problem I see here is the pro-creationists, who are all christians as far as I can tell, are taking the bible MUCH too literally.

I believe in Jesus. Insofar as I believe that he existed, and that he spread the right message -- peace, love, and all that groovy stuff. I DON'T believe he walked on water, or turned water to wine.

Now apply my reasoning there to the rest of the Bible. I believe that the fundamental message of the Bible -- peace, love, happiness, etc -- is a good one. I DON'T believe any of it should be taken literally, or that most of it is remotely true. Okay, some of it is historically accurate, but still, I think too much of it is either metaphoric or just bullshit.

My whole family are Bible-Belt christians, some Southern Babtists, mostly just nondenominational christians. So don't accuse me of not knowing about the Bible.



My whole point here is that all you pro-creationists need to take the Bible with a grain of salt. Look at the MESSAGES, not the TEXT ITSELF. The Bible predates modern science by a lot, and that is why it has so much stuff in it that doesn't apply today. Do you go out and sacrifice a lamb every weekend? Didn't think so. The Bible was written to tell people how they should live, and to try to explain why things were how they were. Science has disproved a lot of their version of events. But later science may disprove a lot of today's science. The Bible (the parts of it that tell why/how things are how they are) was written to offer up a (then) plausible theory on existance. Stop using it to back things up. It's no more relivant than the theory that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

omg ......give me one example that doesnt apply to today....

...my son did not die in combat and if he did I would be extremly pissed because I'm never letting him join the army because a civilized country should not need one. However, it is necessary.. so it's alright. but not my children... thats the stupidest way to die.. for your country pffft. I would only be alright to die for my country if it was what it advertises it is "Liberty and Justice for all" than maybe if that was fulfilled I would be alright with losing a child/friend to a war. and hey.. I'd be willing to die too. but lately.. it's pretty dumb.

I'd call the recuriter and tell him my son was gay... is my plan. he had more sence though than to join the army.


if u really think a civilized country doesnt need one.....you are so naive...do u really think that if we didnt have a military we would still even be a country today...

"God" was unaware of some of the issues of "Satan" around Job, for one, as stated in the Bible ....

Unless "god"'s keen on trickery, which is debatable ...

Job 7
KJ:
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? (....)
NIV:
The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" (....)
Living:
"Where have you come from?" the Lord asked Satan. (....)
NRSV:
The Lord said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" (....)
--
I've got a sh*tload of these kindsa things on file elsewhere. D'rat that i don't have them exactly handy ...

Wow, an informed answer. Tarsonis, you taking notes?

So, if God can be unaware of things, and reasonable decisions are made possible by reliable knowledge, does this introduce the premise of God being susceptible to error?

(I'm not being hypothetical, I'm open to discussion, and I don't really considerit off topic to this thread, as it speaks to the "Intelligent" part of Intelligent Design)

If God can be unaware, does it change the contemporary Christian view of Him/Her?

I'm a "him" (if indeed I'm who you were referencing), and if my wife runs off with your husband, we can get married. I call left side of the bed, and take ownership of laundry and dishes, but I don't dust, clean windows, or cook.
yes was refrencing ya ^_^ you're too funny!
*swoons* YOU DO THE LAUNDRY AND THE DISHES!?!?! OMG! I'LL COME AND STEAL YOU!
lmao!!

Then you came to a conclusion on either incomplete or inaccurate information, or your own intellect blocked you from reaching the conclusion that coincides with the facts.
So kiss your own ass.
Or am i too late?

EDIT:
I should also add that i pointed out why a person could assume you don't know anything about this. I was/am giving creedence to the idea that you were mis- or un-informed, not a talking point parrot lackey.
My bad?

so basically any conclusion ive come to cant possibly be right because its not the same as yours......hm how arrogant of u

Wow, an informed answer. Tarsonis, you taking notes?

So, if God can be unaware of things, and reasonable decisions are made possible by reliable knowledge, does this introduce the premise of God being susceptible to error?

(I'm not being hypothetical, I'm open to discussion, and I don't really considerit off topic to this thread, as it speaks to the "Intelligent" part of Intelligent Design)

If God can be unaware, does it change the contemporary Christian view of Him/Her?


wait quote the entire passage that its from....not just the verse itself

if u really think a civilized country doesnt need one.....you are so naive...do u really think that if we didnt have a military we would still even be a country today...

Past the war of 1812, we wouldn't have REALLY needed one.
I wouldnt care if we were still an english colony.. we'd have more civil rights, a better economy, better accents. and hey.. we'd probally have a rep. in parliment by now!

if u really think a civilized country doesnt need one.....you are so naive...do u really think that if we didnt have a military we would still even be a country today...
Japan doesn't have an army, and last I checked they were doing fine.

Quit while you're still only moderately behind, kid.

once again i feel the need to point out... im unconvinced mainly because no ones tried to theyve only tried to degrade and insult me...

Japan doesn't have an army, and last I checked they were doing fine.

Quit while you're still only moderately behind, kid.
you moderatley tell him wooo!! *cheerleads*

Japan doesn't have an army, and last I checked they were doing fine.

Quit while you're still only moderately behind, kid.


JApan doesnt have an army because we protect them... germany has no army why...treaties.....so whats the answer.....we protect them....

omg ......give me one example that doesnt apply to today....

Go look at the BLOODY TITLE OF THE THREAD. You stupid bugger, what did you THINK I was talking about?

The writers of the Bible said God created everything because they had no way to know that God didn't.
And yes, I know I just kind of admitted that God exists. In fact, I couldn't care one iota less if God exists or not.

But anyway, that was their theory on how life came to be.

It was proven wrong.

So DROP IT ALREADY.

Japan doesn't have an army, and last I checked they were doing fine.

Quit while you're still only moderately behind, kid.

Psst don't tell him to stop or else this thread won't be fun to read anymore.

On topic ID is fine for a religious/history/cultural class but its not science and its not a theory. Hell its not even a valid hypothesis. So lets just do us all a favor and keep the science in the science class and the whatever you call ID in a history/religion class.

Wow, an informed answer. Tarsonis, you taking notes?

So, if God can be unaware of things, and reasonable decisions are made possible by reliable knowledge, does this introduce the premise of God being susceptible to error?

(I'm not being hypothetical, I'm open to discussion, and I don't really considerit off topic to this thread, as it speaks to the "Intelligent" part of Intelligent Design)

If God can be unaware, does it change the contemporary Christian view of Him/Her?
I cannot answer from the perspective of being a Christian, since i'm not one.
I can however say that there is much for me to think that god is either NOT omnipotent, or emotionally infantile and is also subject to a greater morality than itself.

I wish to point out that Dempublicants and Grave_n_Idle are the first best names that come to mind in regards to a fashion of expertise on this topic.
There are a few more but it's been a while and i can't grave-dig.

I also wish to point out that when god obliterated one of the bigger cities, i think it was Sodom, it felt a regret for a specific action it took .... i gotta look a little for that one.


BTW, thank you for the compliment. *bows*

if u really think a civilized country doesnt need one.....you are so naive...do u really think that if we didnt have a military we would still even be a country today...

Read her whole post, she said conceded that it was necessary. A view of the military as a regrettable necessity is a fair view.

Unfortunately, if we take the term "civilization" in its morally neutral context (if there is such a thing), the sad fact is that civilization and military development have gone hand in hand.

Also, when I was in Japan, I had a student who claimed to be from the Japanese air-force. Said his commanding officer was making them play soccer to practice cooperation for combat scenarios. He said Japan's military (called it a "Self-Defense Force") was small, but armed. Is that all true?

EDIT: It occurs to me that I can't judge somebody else's view as "fair" or "unfair". Instead, I say her view is reasonable to me.

to the guy who said america stood for liberty tolerance justice....what is tolerance...what is liberty and what is justice....i ask this? can u answer
Liberty: The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
Tolerance: The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
Justice: The quality of being just, impartial, or fair

Any further silly questions? - By the way, www.dictionary.com might be of some help.

once again i feel the need to point out... im unconvinced mainly because no ones tried to theyve only tried to degrade and insult me...
No... ID is wrong... this is saying that you get to heaven and everysingle living being in the universe is there... not that you could see or hear, because you are deaf and blind in heaven. anyways, this is so not making sence since there are hundreds or religions on earth... not to mention the universe.. the other civs have to have beleive in different things.. and hey.. who is to say that we're the minority? There may be others out there who have a population of trillions+ and they would all beleive in their own god. would that make us than wrong? according to what you said.. it sure would. and it would be alright if they came here and started teaching their own form of ID.

and to say there is no other life is extremly ignorant.

Past the war of 1812, we wouldn't have REALLY needed one.
I wouldnt care if we were still an english colony.. we'd have more civil rights, a better economy, better accents. and hey.. we'd probally have a rep. in parliment by now!


OMG!!! im sory this one made me laugh.....the whole reason we left is because they wouldnt give us a rep in parliament....you really think that would change if they new they could beat us... wow...the only thing keeping other contries from attacking us....is the fact that we have an army..

once again i feel the need to point out... im unconvinced mainly because no ones tried to theyve only tried to degrade and insult me...

I didnt say one word about you until you CONFRONTED me on my post, which I defended. Though I shouldn't have had to, because this IS the 'My thoughts on ID and Evolution...etc" thread.

once again i feel the need to point out... im unconvinced mainly because no ones tried to theyve only tried to degrade and insult me...

For a long time (in the context of a forum-thread), I gave you the benefit of the doubt and constructed several "tries" for you. So did many others. You're burning an empty pot from which your credibility has already evaporated.

I cannot answer from the perspective of being a Christian, since i'm not one.
I can however say that there is much for me to think that god is either NOT omnipotent, or emotionally infantile and is also subject to a greater morality than itself.

I wish to point out that Dempublicants and Grave_n_Idle are the first best names that come to mind in regards to a fashion of expertise on this topic.
There are a few more but it's been a while and i can't grave-dig.

I also wish to point out that when god obliterated one of the bigger cities, i think it was Sodom, it felt a regret for a specific action it took .... i gotta look a little for that one.


BTW, thank you for the compliment. *bows*

Thank you. I've also heard good things about Dempublicants and Grave_n_Idle. I'll follow up on your reference, as I seem to recall a translation where God is regretful over the Great Flood, as well, but I could be wrong.

Go look at the BLOODY TITLE OF THE THREAD. You stupid bugger, what did you THINK I was talking about?

The writers of the Bible said God created everything because they had no way to know that God didn't.
And yes, I know I just kind of admitted that God exists. In fact, I couldn't care one iota less if God exists or not.

But anyway, that was their theory on how life came to be.

It was proven wrong.

So DROP IT ALREADY.

BUT IT HASNT BEEN PROVIN WRONG!!!! ITS FAR FROM IT!! EVOLUTION ISNT A SCIENTIFIC LAW!!!!!!

Read her whole post, she said conceded that it was necessary. A view of the military as a regrettable necessity is a fair view.

Unfortunately, if we take the term "civilization" in its morally neutral context (if there is such a thing), the sad fact is that civilization and military development have gone hand in hand.

Also, when I was in Japan, I had a student who claimed to be from the Japanese air-force. Said his commanding officer was making them play soccer to practice cooperation for combat scenarios. He said Japan's military (called it a "Self-Defense Force") was small, but armed. Is that all true?
Ah =) yeah wasent gonna say anything, Japan does have an army, it's highly regulated though as we are still afraid they might try to take over the world. Current numbers from lonleyplanet say abou/less than 1000 in the army. and they were deployed to iraq. saddly.

For a long time (in the context of a forum-thread), I gave you the benefit of the doubt and constructed several "tries" for you. So did many others. You're burning an empty pot from which your credibility has already evaporated.

*applauds* That sums it all up very nicely.

so basically any conclusion ive come to cant possibly be right because its not the same as yours......hm how arrogant of u
And you keep saying that noone's making serious counter arguments, but merely call you names - all the while resorting to namecalling yourself? I have a feeling I'll find a pic of your ugly mug if I look up "Hypocrite" in the dictionary.

At any rate, he didn't say anything about you being wrong because you don't share his belief. He said you're wrong because your beliefs contradicts reality.

It's sort of like when you tell someone "No, that stone isn't gonna float off into the sky when you drop it out the window".

so basically any conclusion ive come to cant possibly be right because its not the same as yours......hm how arrogant of u
This is another example of an incorrect conclusion. So i'll point you back in the direction of my last post, and implore you to comprehend it as well as read it, even though i am aware this may be a losing battle. But i did offer help.
As arrogance goes ....
OED
aggressively assertive or presumptious

... so when you say,

basically any conclusion ive come to cant possibly be right

goes in *what* category?
Should i give you a few minutes?
"...rock the boat, baby .... don't tip the boat over! ..."

Besides, if you really felt that way, i figured you'd try a little harder to back it up with some kind of fact or something. Again i realize i'm painting myself to be a hard-luck case, but, it's because i care!
;)

BUT IT HASNT BEEN PROVIN WRONG!!!! ITS FAR FROM IT!! EVOLUTION ISNT A SCIENTIFIC LAW!!!!!!

I think evolution is. It's peoples arrogance because they cannot see it happening RIGHT QUICK that makes us doubt it.

...the only thing keeping other contries from attacking us....is the fact that we have an army..


People like you make this more true every day.

(Note: not Christians as a whole, just those like Tarsonis)

BUT IT HASNT BEEN PROVIN WRONG!!!! ITS FAR FROM IT!! EVOLUTION ISNT A SCIENTIFIC LAW!!!!!!

WITHOUT quoting the Bible, give me one scrap of evidence AGAINST evolution.

Oh, and I recommend getting a new keyboard, your caps lock seems to be broken.

And you keep saying that noone's making serious counter arguments, but merely call you names - all the while resorting to namecalling yourself? I have a feeling I'll find a pic of your ugly mug if I look up "Hypocrite" in the dictionary.

At any rate, he didn't say anything about you being wrong because you don't share his belief. He said you're wrong because your beliefs contradicts reality.

It's sort of like when you tell someone "No, that stone isn't gonna float off into the sky when you drop it out the window".
Hi again, Sim, happy to see you on this thread. Thanks for backing me up! I probably came across as too snarky, so i like your version better. *bows*
Hope all is well with you.

And you keep saying that noone's making serious counter arguments, but merely call you names - all the while resorting to namecalling yourself? I have a feeling I'll find a pic of your ugly mug if I look up "Hypocrite" in the dictionary.

At any rate, he didn't say anything about you being wrong because you don't share his belief. He said you're wrong because your beliefs contradicts reality.

It's sort of like when you tell someone "No, that stone isn't gonna float off into the sky when you drop it out the window".


oh another great question.....what is reality but prejudice developed from what u have been told....

BUT IT HASNT BEEN PROVIN WRONG!!!! ITS FAR FROM IT!! EVOLUTION ISNT A SCIENTIFIC LAW!!!!!!
There's no such thing as a Law in science. The closest you get is a theory.

I bet ya got him thinking now.. lmao.

that is the same with gay marriage.. I'd like to go up to congress and ask em without ANY religious bias tell me why gay marriage is bad.

*sigh* some stupid humans..

And you keep saying that noone's making serious counter arguments, but merely call you names - all the while resorting to namecalling yourself? I have a feeling I'll find a pic of your ugly mug if I look up "Hypocrite" in the dictionary.

At any rate, he didn't say anything about you being wrong because you don't share his belief. He said you're wrong because your beliefs contradicts reality.

It's sort of like when you tell someone "No, that stone isn't gonna float off into the sky when you drop it out the window".

I also think Tarsonis is wrong because he contradicts himself.

People like you make this more true every day.

(Note: not Christians as a whole, just those like Tarsonis)


Not just CHRISTIANS like Tarsonis, either, but PEOPLE like him.

Imagine there's no countries...
It isn't hard to do...
Nothing to kill or die for...
And no religion, too...

oh another great question.....what is reality but prejudice developed from what u have been told....
Sorry, but the truth about EVERYTHING is prejudiced.. the fact that this post is my result of typing is prejudice. even though it's painstakingly apparent.

I think evolution is. It's peoples arrogance because they cannot see it happening RIGHT QUICK that makes us doubt it.

Then you misunderstand with a scientific law means. For example, where is the math formula that supports it?

Not just CHRISTIANS like Tarsonis, either, but PEOPLE like him.


I stand corrected.

I also think Tarsonis is wrong because he contradicts himself.
lmao. you can tell he's a diehard christian than.. ^^;

oh another great question.....what is reality but prejudice developed from what u have been told....

Beautiful. Now apply this axiom to the subset of reality that includes your belief in Christianity.

Thank you. I've also heard good things about Dempublicants and Grave_n_Idle. I'll follow up on your reference, as I seem to recall a translation where God is regretful over the Great Flood, as well, but I could be wrong.
Actually you could be correct, i'll defer to your judgment on this ... now i'm bugged so i'm gonna look it up. I'll post here in a little while on it, unforseen circumstances complimenting my actions!

oh another great question.....what is reality but prejudice developed from what u have been told....

Can we please not get into the matrix has you crap and get back on topic. Now Tarsonis in order for ID to be taught in a science class as a scientific theory it has to meet certain criteria. First it has to be testable. Now when it comes to ID you can test to see if something is in fact complex but you can't really test if a nebulus creator figure aside from people have made it. Second it has to be falsifiable which is where ID fails. Its impossible to falsifiy a supernatural being because you can always come up with some jack in the box well he's doing something this way response to your attempt at falsifiying it. So really ID fails at being a hypothesis and isn't even a theory. Now because of this it can't be in a science class because its not science.

Then you misunderstand with a scientific law means. For example, where is the math formula that supports it?
Time*Rate of Mutation I think dear.. something along those lines.. I used to know it I'm so keen after I graduated 11th grade ^^;

EDIT: was what they could tell how evolution happened, like how long it took in those birds?

lmao. you can tell he's a diehard christian than.. ^^;
Please don't troll. It'd be a shame for this thread to get locked.

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying

Please don't troll. It'd be a shame for this thread to get locked.

...? okay?

Time*Rate of Mutation I think dear.. something along those lines.. I used to know it I'm so keen after I graduated 11th grade ^^;

EDIT: was what they could tell how evolution happened, like how long it took in those birds?

shame u couldnt have made it passed the 12th grade lady

its not forcing it down peoples throats.....its presenting it to someone and letting them make their own discisions. i get taught evolution in school....doesnt mean i have to believe i just have to know about it....same thing i get taught ID in school i dont have to agree with it but i know about it so im prepared for it if i encounter it in later life

Sorry but you are learning science in the science class. Religion does not belong in the science class. That is why it is sans ID....

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying

Ah sweet fucking christ right after I make an intellegent on topic post you pull this hemmorrage of poor grammar and a blob of thoughts. Thats it I want my 3 minutes of my life back bud.

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying
What the fuck does this have to do with ID and/or the ToE?

BUT IT HASNT BEEN PROVIN WRONG!!!! ITS FAR FROM IT!! EVOLUTION ISNT A SCIENTIFIC LAW!!!!!!
Actually, if that's why you won't bother to read up on it, here's the quick explanation for why it isn't called the Law of Evolution:

Science disproves things, the method is basically a process of elimination. That means the scientific method can't prove anything. At all. At most, it can say that something is pretty damn likely.

The Law of Gravity was wrong. Einstein figured that one out. So the scientific community (which is basically just the lot of peer reveiwed scientists on this planet) have decided not to call theories 'laws' anymore, because non-scientists get confused by it.

If that terminology was still in use, ToE would be a law. And it would be the most thoroughly well-documented & overwhelmingly supported law we've ever discovered.

I hope that provides some sort of context for you. Now please go read about it, because you spewing bullshit is getting tedius. The novelty wears off after 10+ pages.

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying

Did...did his post just include an "Edit" with the reason "Typo"?

Typo? He edited one of his posts for a typo...has he looked at his other posts?

To me, Sons of Tarsonis editing a post for ONE typo is funnier than Butters getting the Shuriken in the eye....

No excuse me for loving this country... im not gonna let some one who lives 3000 miles away in britain talk bad about it... im fiercely patriotic and im sorry if that offends you... but if someones going to insult the integrity and dignity of this country to me directy im gonna give them and earful

Interesting do you even know the history of it?

shame u couldnt have made it passed the 12th grade lady

What are you talking about.. lmao.
Uhm.. sorry to burst your bubble I went to law school...
*pat pat* I can't say youre going to get very far.. well of course unless they add ID to your school circ. A+ in that. :rolleyes:

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying

I try to listen to what the Administraition has to say, but gosh darn it, our pres, pres, president is so har... hard to listen to cause hes redundant, and he says things twice. and he can't talk, and repeats himself to boot.

Oh, and I don't delude myself. Since I'm SURE you know nothing about buddhism, i'll tell you that the first fundamental truth of Buddhism is: There is suffering.

The thing is, people like me don't try to perpetuate the problem by your argument (shit happens, so we gotta go in and make MORE shit happen to OTHER people, or shit will happen to US!), we try to make things BETTER by NOT causing more problems.

shame u couldnt have made it passed the 12th grade lady

Oh, let's not start comparing formalized education, pal. There's folks on this board that will come in and hose us all down with acronyms.

Then you misunderstand with a scientific law means. For example, where is the math formula that supports it?

The Hardy Wienberg equation? (p² + 2pq + q² = 1).

Of course, it's been fifteen years since I took a biology class, so I could be wrong.

Genesis 6:5-7
[KJ]:
(5)And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(6)And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(7)And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I have a cross-ref here, and if anyone's really interested, i'll post the NIV, NRSV and Living versions.

ive give up....obvioulsy this is going no where.....im tired and im goin ta bed because monday ill join the real world where people dont live in a delusional atheistic society where every ones nice to eachother and theres world peace....when are people gonna learn its a shitty world and if were ever gonna change it someone might have to die...get over your self and start honoring are fallen soldiers instead of protesting their deaths... concidering all of the soldiers there think theyre doing a good thing and cant stand the fact that the democrats are saying we lost this war...you people need to stop listening to micheal more and fricken howard dean swallow ure pride and actually listen to what the administration and congress are saying

TANGENT ALERT! SHIELDS UP!
Seriously thats like 800th tagent you've gone on.. I dont see what this has to do with ID? And the modern world is Athiest dear, ar least the sucuessfull countires. Or at least they are suposed to be. No no, they are just suposed to not be affiliated with religion. So what you might call athiest.

The sons of tarsonis, a few questions:

First of all, do you know the steps to the scientific method?

Second, do you know what falsifiable means?

Third, you said something along the lines of "but what if God used evolution as his mechanism?"

If God used evolution as his mechanism, that means that evolution is true on a religious as well as a physical level. The thing is, evolution, ultimately, doesn't really address the "why" of how species change, i.e. if it was random mutation or if those mutations were guided by God. Whether the process was completely natural or guided by God makes no difference to the science involved. Therefore the grand total of what ID can add to evolution is that "someone did it." But we have no proof whatsoever that "someone did it." Therefore science can't address that. All it can address is what we have evidence for, and that is that organisms do, in fact, adapt over time.

Okay, now for the proof behind evolution. I know you don't have an interest of actually looking up the sources we reference (such as talkorigins.com.) so I'll sum up.

Now we can see by direct observation of physical characteristics and the study of genetics that random mutations do happen. We've observed it directly in laboratory conditions (such as bacteria developing resistance to anti-biotics.)

We've looked at the genetic structures of various organisms and have seen how they are related. For example, viruses inserted themselves into the genetic structure of the common ancestor of chimpanzees and man. That minute change was passed down to both man and chimp.

The fossil record, while incomplete, has reinforced the idea of the progression of species adapting to their environment. Due to the rarity of the process that leads to fossilization, it is impossible to find the transitional steps from every single organism to the next...but we have found thousands of transitional forms.

There is no mechanism in biology known that keeps successive generations from mutating, even if prior generations have already mutated. Therefore, unless said mechanism is found, observable micro-evolution (small changes) MUST lead, eventually to macro-evolution (speciation and beyond.)

To provide an analogy, think of micro-evolution as changing a single letter in a long book. That single letter change doesn't change much of anything at all, but when a single change follows a single change generation after generation, after a few thousand (or million,) repetitions of that small change, a LARGE change inevitably results. The book, as it were, has radically changed in form. It is no longer Shakespeare but is now Stephen King.

What you have to realize is that evolution is one of the most robustly supported theories of our time. The amount of proof behind it, spanning multitudes of scientific disciplines, is staggering. It is the cornerstone of modern biology. Without the theory of evolution guiding scientific thought, modern medicine would be impossible.

You really HAVE to read up on evolution on your own time. There's no way to introduce the mountains of evidence in a forum like this. Seriously, the only way to argue against evolution is from a viewpoint of ignorance.

What are you talking about.. lmao.
Uhm.. sorry to burst your bubble I went to law school...
*pat pat* I can't say youre going to get very far.. well of course unless they add ID to your school circ. A+ in that. :rolleyes:

Law school? Interesting. I got a 169 on the LSAT last year, and might like to go to Boyd, but I'm not sure I can handle the current competition in Law. Am I out of line to ask your field of practice?

To stay on topic, if Tarsonis is leaving, who wants to pick up his flag and defend his position?

Off topic, I just spent a few secs walking around, almost hyperventalating with laughter. A typo. Jesus.

Oh, let's not start comparing formalized education, pal. There's folks on this board that will come in and hose us all down with acronyms.
Hahahaha!

Wait you go to berkley????
wow. pitty.

He doesn't go there. If the great american did he would know it was Berkeley and not berkley.....

The Hardy Wienberg equation? (p² + 2pq + q² = 1).

Of course, it's been fifteen years since I took a biology class, so I could be wrong.

This is used to calculate the ratios of various alleles in a population, is that right? I remember a unit on heterozygous advantage, the hemoglobin gene and sickle-cell/malaria instances in Africa or something.

I think you might have just rocketed over Tarsonis's head, though.

Off topic, I just spent a few secs walking around, almost hyperventalating with laughter. A typo. Jesus.

Yes, I noticed that too, and had to stuff my face in my pillow to keep from waking up my family (it's three in the morning here).

I try to listen to what the Administraition has to say, but gosh darn it, our pres, pres, president is so har... hard to listen to cause hes redundant, and he says things twice. and he can't talk, and repeats himself to boot.
Perhaps it's because anyone with a "differing viewpoint" is
misunderestimating
him?

BTW, i think he copyrighted that term. He has publicly stated that it is part of his
strategery

@ Saint Curie - no need to panic. One knob doesn't ruin my impression of Americans... Unless you put him in office twice.


Well you can just ah hell who am I kidding. Only a couple more years and the lame duck will be gone. The next one is to be concerned about. Nobody good on the horizon.....

Law school? Interesting. I got a 169 on the LSAT last year, and might like to go to Boyd, but I'm not sure I can handle the current competition in Law. Am I out of line to ask your field of practice?

To stay on topic, if Tarsonis is leaving, who wants to pick up his flag and defend his position?

Off topic, I just spent a few secs walking around, almost hyperventalating with laughter. A typo. Jesus.

*picks up flag*
Yes, i went to law school with dreams of being a senator one day *looser* But you're right, the average Lawyer makes $24,000 something. and there is an overpopulation of them.. But follow your dream! Anything can come true.. it takes a good worker to do good at anything.. that's all you need. And now I'm a homemaker. I know. I was the girl who was like I OVER ACHIEVE before I had kids... now I just donate to the ACLU.. *sigh*

Oh, and Tarsonis, I don't listen to Michael Moore (he's an arrogant, stupid son of a bitch) or Howard Dean (Who IS howard dean? Isnt he that cool guy who can scream like a car alarm?). I have better things to do. Like play bass. Or guitar. Or listen to Helloween/Tally Hall/ZZ Top/whatever the hell im in the mood for. Or slam my head into a wall. Repeatedly.

I feel like I should play Devil's Advocate and take up the cause for Tarsonis, only because nature abhors a vacuum, and his posts displaced a certain volume in much the same way that a "WHAM!" reunion concert would fill a certain number of seats greater than zero.

Well you can just ah hell who am I kidding. Only a couple more years and the lame duck will be gone. The next one is to be concerned about. Nobody good on the horizon.....

Well, whatever anybody thinks of Bush, I don't think his own party is going to quote him a lot in the future. I think the Republicans themselves might wind up looking to present something different down the road.

I also think Tarsonis is wrong because he contradicts himself.
Well, Tarsonis is probably just mirroring the "philosophy" that, like his beloved administration, it's the intelligence's fault and anyone that is detractive in the protocol involved is just a left-wing lackey and that hey a whole bunch of other knuckleheads voted on the same flawed intelligence, source notwithstanding, so blame them.
Yep, smellin' like a rose.
Kinda like attacking Clinton for "definition of 'is' " ...
Or maybe facts aren't to be adhered to but instead picked and chosen from, like a box o'chocolates!!!

Perhaps it's because anyone with a "differing viewpoint" is
misunderestimating
him?

BTW, i think he copyrighted that term. He has publicly stated that it is part of his
strategery

Yes, that, and nuke-u-lar, and a hell of a lot of other words.

I cant remember who this is from, but... "I think I know why this nation loves you so much... It's like loving a retarded baby."

but the problem at hand how does ID get taught to students?
any solutions?

Teach it where it belongs. A religious studies class.....

it was joke goddamnit

Are good Christians supposed to say that?

Yes, that, and nuke-u-lar, and a hell of a lot of other words.

I cant remember who this is from, but... "I think I know why this nation loves you so much... It's like loving a retarded baby."


ROFL

This is used to calculate the ratios of various alleles in a population, is that right? I remember a unit on heterozygous advantage, the hemoglobin gene and sickle-cell/malaria instances in Africa or something.

I think you might have just rocketed over Tarsonis's head, though.

Yah. (Now I'm am going from old memories here.It's been a while since my last biology class) It predicts the probable genotype frequencies of a sufficiently large genetically stable population, but only if seven assumptions are met.

If the actual genotype frequency (and therefore the phenotype frequency) does not corespond with the predicted, the population is not in genetic equilibrium from generation to generation and therefore the seven assumptions are not met, and evolutionary mechanisms are acting upon the population thus causing it to evolve. Something like that at any rate.

(Forensic engineering is really more my line. So if any top flight bio guys want to correct me, please do.)

*picks up flag*
Yes, i went to law school with dreams of being a senator one day *looser* But you're right, the average Lawyer makes $24,000 something. and there is an overpopulation of them.. But follow your dream! Anything can come true.. it takes a good worker to do good at anything.. that's all you need. And now I'm a homemaker. I know. I was the girl who was like I OVER ACHIEVE before I had kids... now I just donate to the ACLU.. *sigh*

Nothing wrong with being a homemaker, and you sound young enough to head back in if you wanted.

But, uh...do you really want the flag? Its meant to be symbolic of "Sons of Tarsonis" and his position (piecemeal as it was).

Teach it where it belongs. A religious studies class.....

Tsk tsk, posting on topic? Come now, this is NS General, and we're 33 pages in. Bad form, bad form!

He's trying to help you. Really. Consider it.
Hey, thanks for the props! *bows*

I've only got a limited time, surprisingly enough ...
:(

Nothing wrong with being a homemaker, and you sound young enough to head back in if you wanted.

But, uh...do you really want the flag? Its meant to be symbolic of "Sons of Tarsonis" and his position (piecemeal as it was).

thanks ^^ I hope I can.. try to get back into it one day...
lmao! I could take it an make them look bad by supporting it yet being one of them! jaja!

EDIT: or would it be not support it and being one of them?!!? OH NOOOES!!!

Are good Christians supposed to say that?
Only if they're serious and properly equipped. I have my doubts about both.

Yah. (Now I'm am going from old memories here.It's been a while since my last biology class) It predicts the probable genotype frequencies of a sufficiently large genetically stable population, but only if seven assumptions are met.

If the actual genotype frequency (and therefore the phenotype frequency) does not corespond with the predicted, the population is not in genetic equilibrium from generation to generation and therefore the seven assumptions are not met, and evolutionary mechanisms are acting upon the population thus causing it to evolve. Something like that at any rate.

(Forensic engineering is really more my line. So if any top flight bio guys want to correct me, please do.)

Okay, yeah, I think you're on it. Large population, no drift, random breeding, little mutation, bunch of others, I think.

Forensic engineering? Like, when buildings fall over, you investigate why? Or Forensic Engineering in biology? Sorry, I haven't heard the term.

*yawns* it's 3.18 in the morning here, and I've got a science project due three days ago I need to get to work on. Bye, everyone.

Yes, that, and nuke-u-lar, and a hell of a lot of other words.

I cant remember who this is from, but... "I think I know why this nation loves you so much... It's like loving a retarded baby."

Heeeeeeeeheeeeeeeee!

Low and to the body, but the ref isn't calling it...

Gawd did it. The End.

NOTE FROM THE TEACHER: Good job. A-, marked down for poor spelling. This concludes then entire curriculum involving Intelligent Design.

Yes, that, and nuke-u-lar, and a hell of a lot of other words.

I cant remember who this is from, but... "I think I know why this nation loves you so much... It's like loving a retarded baby."
Believable in this day and age, indeed, that airtime pundits actually argued FOR the dismantling of grammatical vernacular (AS WELL as the actual facts of many circumstances) and said it was a regional inflection or a dialect, making up a certain part of the population and therefore legitimizing it.
FLORT as to your quote, though .... :D

Too bad it's a painful kinda funny.

once again i feel the need to point out... im unconvinced mainly because no ones tried to theyve only tried to degrade and insult me...

Well sweety. You really don't need to point anything out. We already know nothing will convince you.....

I feel like I should play Devil's Advocate and take up the cause for Tarsonis, only because nature abhors a vacuum, and his posts displaced a certain volume in much the same way that a "WHAM!" reunion concert would fill a certain number of seats greater than zero.

I'll give it a go.

If someone can tell me what is position was other than "ure all rng...commiez...pepul dieded fur free speech.....and you cannot pruve God si rong...LOL."