NationStates Jolt Archive

And the continual erosion of our liberties marches on:
Source (http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D16626668)

And the continual erosion of our liberties marches on:
Source (http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D16626668)
Pardon me while I get sick... Due more to the stupidity of our voters (check it out here) than the corruption of our leaders.

Sigh...

I'd better start memorizing my ID number.

Today I got into a discussion about whether living under the United States government is, at a fundamental level, different than Communist Cuba.

Most arguments involved things like civil liberties and separation of powers, but those are rapidly deteriorating.

Certainly the United States today isn't repressive to the degree of Communist Cuba, but the direction that we're headed in frightens me.

People are surprised? Politicians are using a tragedy and turning it into a weapon against our civil liberties. Given that the Patriot Act is just that a licence for the government to ignore the Bill of Rights and do whatever they want... Well, it seems a good portion of Americans sadly agree with this since they did elect these people...

There is one solution.
Revolution.

Bring them fascists on! :mp5: :mp5:

Sigh...

I'd better start memorizing my ID number.

That's being optimistic, XG199273891BGD2!

Well, you can take solace in the fact that the US government didn't just grant itself the power to do what it wanted to just after 9-11. The US government always did what it wanted to whether it was considered "legal" or not. The only thing the Patriot act changed was that my government now has a legal excuse for malfeaseance without having to bother covering it up and lying about its actions.

Rhennan

Better watch out for the KGB, I mean DHS.
Better go pratice getting used to a Heil salute.

Our nation has just evolved into the second stage of stupidity of
extending the Patriots act

Kick him Out!!

And the continual erosion of our liberties marches on:
Source (http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D16626668)

Do you think anyone actually read it this time around?

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin

Anyone who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

I used to like this country back when it was a democracy.

In a matter of years, we may be the ones who have the "honor" of being "liberated" from a dictatorship government. -_-

Damn Gestapo

kind of funny, in there they said that included would be the ability to tap "lone wolf" terrorists.

If they're "lone wolves," who would they be calling and telling about their terrorism?

:headbang:

Now I'm confused. I thought the Patriot Act would surely lead to the American Empire and the deportation of hippies to forced labor camps. But here we are in 2005, and I'm still plagued by hippies! What the hell?! Come on Gonzales! This dissent isn't going to quash itself!

Now I'm confused. I thought the Patriot Act would surely lead to the American Empire and the deportation of hippies to forced labor camps. But here we are in 2005, and I'm still plagued by hippies! What the hell?! Come on Gonzales! This dissent isn't going to quash itself!

On one said that government was efficient.

There is one solution.
Revolution.

Bring them fascists on! :mp5: :mp5:


If it comes down to it, then seriously i will rise against anyone that threatens the constitution or any individuals rights. Our ancestors fought and died not to let our way of life turn into a neo-tyrannical society, but rather that none of us, nor our children, will have to face such a life. People need to grow up and vote better people into office....before its too late, and then blood will run freely down the streets.

Come January we'll only have 2 years left...they can only do so much with the time they've got.

On one said that government was efficient.
So they're incompetent idiots, but they have the intelligence to craft this master conspiracy to turn America in a Fascist Dictatorship?

You know, all you gun supporters should get into your well organized militia like you're supposed to for gun ownership.

Alright, I was promised a fucking dictatorship! Where the FUCK is my dictatorship!?! Huh? Concentration camps? Gestapo? ID cards? Genocide? Oppression? Un-free press? Speach? Where is it bitches? Three fucking years’ guys! Three fucking years and you want MORE time!?! What they hell are you doing scratching your collective balls? We still have gays, Muslims, women, babies, puppy eaters and gnomes... WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU CLOWNS DOING? I was promised a fucking dictatorship!!! You know, Fascism and shit?!?! :mad:



:p

Sigh...

I'd better start memorizing my ID number.

You won't have to, they'll tattoo it to your arm.

You won't have to, they'll tattoo it to your arm.

Or on their heads, like those stupid kids who think they're making a political statement but are really just ruining their family photos and chances of dating.

And the continual erosion of our liberties marches on:
Source (http://www.optonline.net/News/Article/Feeds?CID=type%3Dxml%26channel%3D32%26article%3D16626668)

1. Not on until all political partys offering diffrent economic, political and social points of views are outlawed except for the Republican party.

2. Not until neighborhood committees for the defence of the government and
the Republican party are setup to inform law enforcement agencys on anyone who disagrees with any government policy.

3. Not until government organized mobs are setup to harrass and beat up
all those who disagree with any government policy.

4. Not until the media is government run and controlled.

5. Not until small business entreprise is outlawed and only big corporations
in coaporation or government owned is allowed.

6. Not until all civil social organizations are under government run control.

7. Not until cable, satelite tv and the internet is outlawed or is strictly under government control and no site like nationstates where we can discuss argue, debate or share our diffrent economic, political and social points of views is outlawed.

If they are going to check for real terrorist suspects only,
We have a long ways to go, unlike Cuba which has all of the above, and
Venezuela which is headed for a true dictatorship government.

If they are going to check for real terrorist suspects only,
"Terrorist suspects" is basicly any one who looks like a muslim...

This from the article:
Republicans said they intended to proceed without further changes. Some aides, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that purely in political terms, they relished the prospect of Democrats trying to block an extension of anti-terrorism legislation.

"We should unite in a bipartisan way to support the Patriot Act, to stand up for freedom, and against terror," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn.
I think this is probably the biggest reason they're pushing it through. What with Bush's popularity slumping and dragging down the repubs, the only thing they can do is play the terrorist card (yet again). If the dems disagree, it gives the right-wingers the chance to harp on and on and on that dems don't care about 'your safety', 'your values', they want to sleep with Osama etc etc.
So it's just a cynical obscene and nauseating attempt to stay in power.

For some reason I'm not surprised.

People are surprised? Politicians are using a tragedy and turning it into a weapon against our civil liberties. Given that the Patriot Act is just that a licence for the government to ignore the Bill of Rights and do whatever they want... Well, it seems a good portion of Americans sadly agree with this since they did elect these people...
Sadly? For experiment's sake ... next time this topic comes up, take note of how often the phrase, "The Patriot Act is one of the most misunderstood pieces of legislation (in history/ever)....."
Time to take note of the ignorant by faith and the ignorant/evil by action.
These f*ckers still have too much help.

1. Not on until all political partys offering diffrent economic, political and social points of views are outlawed except for the Republican party.

2. Not until neighborhood committees for the defence of the government and
the Republican party are setup to inform law enforcement agencys on anyone who disagrees with any government policy.

3. Not until government organized mobs are setup to harrass and beat up
all those who disagree with any government policy.

4. Not until the media is government run and controlled.

5. Not until small business entreprise is outlawed and only big corporations
in coaporation or government owned is allowed.

6. Not until all civil social organizations are under government run control.

7. Not until cable, satelite tv and the internet is outlawed or is strictly under government control and no site like nationstates where we can discuss argue, debate or share our diffrent economic, political and social points of views is outlawed.

If they are going to check for real terrorist suspects only,
We have a long ways to go, unlike Cuba which has all of the above, and
Venezuela which is headed for a true dictatorship government.
Wholly f*ck if i personally haven't posted cases to the affirmative of almost every single example here, perpetrated by the current arseholes-in-power.
A bunch of other people have posted on it too.

Ah, shit...
*throws dart at map*
Gah...that's no good.
*pulls dart out of Botswana*
*throws dart again*
What the hell?
*pulls dart out of Texas*
*throws dart again*
Alright...Lithuania, here I come!

I used to like this country back when it was a democracy.
This country isn't, and never has been a democracy. It wasn't bad when it was a republic though.

You know, it wouldn't be too suprising to see them ban political parties besides the republicans, I mean, they've banned specific political parties before...

As long as we have a political system with diffrent political partys like the
Republicans and Democrats, Libertarians and even the socialists who can
amend, change or repeal the patriot act and other laws the above points
I have mentioned will not occur.

At least I have proven my point on Cuba my favourite subject and I think Venezuela , in the case of Venezuela President Hugo Chavez and his political
allies never call thier government a government they call it a revolution,
sounds familiar to Fidel Castro dosent it?

But Venezuela doesn't have Che!!

But Venezuela doesn't have Che!!

But it does have Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro.

Once again, someone point out how the patriot act destroys civil liberties?
Especially you Straughn, post those "cases to the affirmative of almost every single example here, perpetrated by the current arseholes-in-power."

OH M GEE!! MY CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE BEING DESTROYED BY EVIL FASCISTS!!!oneoneeleven111!! RISE UP AND FIGHT TEH POWER111! FUX EVIL REPUBLICANS!

:rolleyes:

OH M GEE!! MY CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE BEING DESTROYED BY EVIL FASCISTS!!!oneoneeleven111!! RISE UP AND FIGHT TEH POWER111! FUX EVIL REPUBLICANS!

:rolleyes:

That's intelligent.

That's intelligent.

Right around par...

That's intelligent.
And the fear-mongering in this thread is?

Quick question - has anyone in here actually had their rights abused by the government under the Patriot Act?

Anyone?

Once again, someone point out how the patriot act destroys civil liberties?
Especially you Straughn, post those "cases to the affirmative of almost every single example here, perpetrated by the current arseholes-in-power."

I've detailed this out before and, without the search function to find it, don't wish to repeat it.

Here, you can read for yourself:

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/22436leg20051207.html?ht=
Surveillance Under the USA PATRIOT Act (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17326res20030403.html)
Should you be scared of the Patriot Act? (http://www.slate.com/id/2087984/)

Quick question - has anyone in here actually had their rights abused by the government under the Patriot Act?

Anyone?

One of the scary things about the Patriot Act is that it allows searches without your knowledge. So you may be a victim of the Act, and not know it.

OH M GEE!! MY CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE BEING DESTROYED BY EVIL FASCISTS!!!oneoneeleven111!! RISE UP AND FIGHT TEH POWER111! FUX EVIL REPUBLICANS!

:rolleyes:

What is funny is that this is an issue that cuts across party lines. Some of the biggest opponents of the Patriot Act are Republicans. Although many oppose its excesses, some Democrats support the Act.

You know, all you gun supporters should get into your well organized militia like you're supposed to for gun ownership.

Oh, we are. We are.

But you didn't hear that from me! Wait... this is on the internet... aw, crap! The NSA already knows. I think I hear a helicopter, just a second....

...

...

...

P3RZ1D3NT BUHS R T3H ROXXXORS!!!1111!!!!!!!1!!

This should serve as an example to you all. Any other trouble-makers out there? No? GOOD.

One of the scary things about the Patriot Act is that it allows searches without your knowledge. So you may be a victim of the Act, and not know it.

If a tree falls in the forest...

C'mon.

I understand that a lot of people have an issue with the Patriot Act, but we've been living under it for nearly four years and I have yet to see any egregious examples of it being used in the manner that the most strident out there believe it will be used.

On one hand, we're led to believe that the government is full of Big Brother wannabees who want to trample our civil liberties and read our emails...yet there really isn't any evidence of that. If they are this big and bad, why haven't all the doomsday scenarios come to pass yet?

If a tree falls in the forest...

C'mon.

I understand that a lot of people have an issue with the Patriot Act, but we've been living under it for nearly four years and I have yet to see any egregious examples of it being used in the manner that the most strident out there believe it will be used.

On one hand, we're led to believe that the government is full of Big Brother wannabees who want to trample our civil liberties and read our emails...yet there really isn't any evidence of that. If they are this big and bad, why haven't all the doomsday scenarios come to pass yet?

If you cover your eyes and mouth, you hear no evil and see no evil. Doesn't mean there isn't any evil.

And there have been scores of cases filed across the country about abuses of the Patriot Act. It is not my fault you are deliberately ignorant of these cases.

Hell, even the name is a joke. Patriot Act. Heh. :p

Last time I checked, Patriotism involved standing up for the values that made your country what it is. Not the removal of those values. *sigh*

I've detailed this out before and, without the search function to find it, don't wish to repeat it.

Here, you can read for yourself:

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/22436leg20051207.html?ht=
Surveillance Under the USA PATRIOT Act (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17326res20030403.html)
Should you be scared of the Patriot Act? (http://www.slate.com/id/2087984/)
Personal records from libraries, bookstores, doctor’s offices, business, and other entities that are not connected to an international terrorist or spy could still be obtained using either a secret order under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) or a “national security letter” (NSL) that can be issued by an FBI official without any court oversight.
Section 215. Access to business records and other items under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
Obtaining business records is a long-standing law enforcement tactic. Ordinary grand juries for years have issued subpoenas to all manner of businesses, including libraries and bookstores, for records relevant to criminal inquiries.


In a recent domestic terrorism criminal case, a grand jury served a subpoena on a bookseller to obtain records showing that a suspect had purchased a book giving instructions on how to build a particularly unusual detonator that had been used in several bombings. This was important evidence identifying the suspect as the bomber.


In the 1997 Gianni Versace murder case, a Florida grand jury subpoenaed records from public libraries in Miami Beach.


In the 1990 Zodiac gunman investigation, a New York grand jury subpoenaed records from a public library in Manhattan. Investigators believed that the gunman was inspired by a Scottish occult poet, and wanted to learn who had checked out his books.

Both secret FISA orders and NSLs would continue to contain a potentially permanent gag provision that bars a recipient from telling anyone (other than the recipient’s lawyer) that records have been obtained. The court must accept as “conclusive” the government’s assertion that disclosure of an NSL would harm national security.
Section 213. Authority for delaying notice of the execution of a warrant.
Delayed notification warrants are a long-existing, crime-fighting tool upheld by courts nationwide for decades in organized crime, drug cases and child pornography.


Section 213 of USA PATRIOT Act simply codified the authority law enforcement already had for decades. Because of differences between jurisdictions, the law was a mix of inconsistent standards that varied widely across the country. This lack of uniformity hindered complex terrorism cases. Section 213 resolved the problem by establishing a uniform statutory standard. Section 213 is a vital aspect of our strategy of prevention - detecting and incapacitating terrorists before they are able to strike.


The Supreme Court has held the Fourth Amendment does not require law enforcement to give immediate notice of the execution of a search warrant. The Supreme Court emphasized "that covert entries are constitutional in some circumstances, at least if they are made pursuant to a warrant." In fact, the Court stated that an argument to the contrary was "frivolous." Dalia v. U.S., 441 U.S. 238 (1979). In yet another case, the Court said, "officers need not announce their purpose before conducting an otherwise [duly] authorized search if such an announcement would provoke the escape of the suspect or the destruction of critical evidence." Katz v. U.S., 389 U.S. 347 (1967).

Just the first 2 off the ACLU website. I'm off to work so I will continue when I get home. But so far, I don't see any "rampant trampling of civil liberties". Perhaps you could post something else?

Section 215. Access to business records and other items under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.


Section 213. Authority for delaying notice of the execution of a warrant.


Just the first 2 off the ACLU website. I'm off to work so I will continue when I get home. But so far, I don't see any "rampant trampling of civil liberties". Perhaps you could post something else?

*sigh*

I see no need. The DOJ site is obviously disingenuous. It uses abberrant examples and facetious argument.

But I'll see what I can find.

EDIT: BTW, please give the source for your DOJ quotations. Where is the link?

Setting the Record Straight: An Analysis of the Justice Department's PATRIOT Act Website (http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/031027cdt.shtml)

ACLU Memo to Interested Persons Regarding Myths About Patriot Act Surveillance from the Administration (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/22107leg20051202.html)

Why FBI Intelligence Subpoenas Threaten Civil Liberties (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17624leg20050628.html)

USA Patriot Act Analyses (http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=ifissues&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=76286)

Well....... All i have to say about this matter is that is says in the constitution that when our government starts to fall apart and becomes corrupt we are to write a new constitution. Now.... How do we do that? I dont see you guys doing anything about this matter, except sitting on your computers playing games and going on this. Of course most of you are intelligent people.

What am I doing parsay? Im joining the army and going to ranger school. Then if the government slowly turns into a dictatorship, ill fight for every inch of this country. God bless the USA!

:mp5: :mp5:

Well....... All i have to say about this matter is that is says in the constitution that when our government starts to fall apart and becomes corrupt we are to write a new constitution. Now.... How do we do that? I dont see you guys doing anything about this matter, except sitting on your computers playing games and going on this. Of course most of you are intelligent people.

What am I doing parsay? Im joining the army and going to ranger school. Then if the government slowly turns into a dictatorship, ill fight for every inch of this country. God bless the USA!

:mp5: :mp5:

I used to sit on my computer, but it kept breaking. Now I use a chair. :)

If a tree falls in the forest...

C'mon.

I understand that a lot of people have an issue with the Patriot Act, but we've been living under it for nearly four years and I have yet to see any egregious examples of it being used in the manner that the most strident out there believe it will be used.

On one hand, we're led to believe that the government is full of Big Brother wannabees who want to trample our civil liberties and read our emails...yet there really isn't any evidence of that. If they are this big and bad, why haven't all the doomsday scenarios come to pass yet?

Can you give examples of good things from the Patriot Act?

What am I doing parsay? Im joining the army and going to ranger school. Then if the government slowly turns into a dictatorship, ill fight for every inch of this country. God bless the USA!

The army obeys the government. When the government is a dictatorship, the army still is the tool of the government. As for slowly turning into a dictatorship, if the change is slow enough and the propoganda good enough, nobody will see it coming ever. In fact, they could probably live under one and not realize it.

The army obeys the government. When the government is a dictatorship, the army still is the tool of the government. As for slowly turning into a dictatorship, if the change is slow enough and the propoganda good enough, nobody will see it coming ever. In fact, they could probably live under one and not realize it.

Like slowly boiling a frog.

Under the patriot act itself, they can put anybody they want to under a gag order about any of their activities under the Patriot act. That gag order cannot be challenged, and if you go about making noise, they have the legal right to "disappear" you until their activities are complete.

Does this mean this has been done? No. But what it does mean is that you can't equate a lack of evidence with lack of actions.

Hey, at least you yanks don't have a single party having an absolute majority in both houses of Parlament (or Congress or whatever you call it) like us Aussies (we have "Sedition laws" :( )

1. Not on until all political partys offering diffrent economic, political and social points of views are outlawed except for the Republican party.

2. Not until neighborhood committees for the defence of the government and
the Republican party are setup to inform law enforcement agencys on anyone who disagrees with any government policy.

3. Not until government organized mobs are setup to harrass and beat up
all those who disagree with any government policy.

4. Not until the media is government run and controlled.

5. Not until small business entreprise is outlawed and only big corporations
in coaporation or government owned is allowed.

6. Not until all civil social organizations are under government run control.

7. Not until cable, satelite tv and the internet is outlawed or is strictly under government control and no site like nationstates where we can discuss argue, debate or share our diffrent economic, political and social points of views is outlawed.

If they are going to check for real terrorist suspects only,
We have a long ways to go, unlike Cuba which has all of the above, and
Venezuela which is headed for a true dictatorship government.

omfgwtfPWNED.

P.S. Bush sucks, Knicks suck, Jets, .... Krypton sucks
P.S.P.S. I love Big Brother

I want to apologize to any readers who had expected to be able to follow up on my two deleted posts ... i've since discovered that this current forum doesn't have the archives that far back, only since the swap, which, frankly, upon perusal, aren't very interesting on my part. In SOME of my defense, i was one of the many lucky ghosts to be unable to post but able to read for a while.
So, i'll summate ....
The Forseral thread Patriot Act (if memory serves) went on for *some* time, and had many, MANY excellent posts on this topic.
I think CanuckHeaven had the most extensive posts on victims of the Patriot Act and related issues.
So as for my quantifying w/in 24 hrs, well, i may bump, but i'm giving myself just a little more time than that. I have to go through my hard-drive/floppy archives.

1. Not on until all political partys offering diffrent economic, political and social points of views are outlawed except for the Republican party.

2. Not until neighborhood committees for the defence of the government and
the Republican party are setup to inform law enforcement agencys on anyone who disagrees with any government policy.

3. Not until government organized mobs are setup to harrass and beat up
all those who disagree with any government policy.

4. Not until the media is government run and controlled.

5. Not until small business entreprise is outlawed and only big corporations
in coaporation or government owned is allowed.

6. Not until all civil social organizations are under government run control.

7. Not until cable, satelite tv and the internet is outlawed or is strictly under government control and no site like nationstates where we can discuss argue, debate or share our diffrent economic, political and social points of views is outlawed.

If they are going to check for real terrorist suspects only,
We have a long ways to go, unlike Cuba which has all of the above, and
Venezuela which is headed for a true dictatorship government.

You'll be worried when it gets to that point??

Hey, at least you yanks don't have a single party having an absolute majority in both houses of Parlament (or Congress or whatever you call it) like us Aussies (we have "Sedition laws" :( )

Uh, yeah, we do. And they control the Supreme Court, and the White House.

Hell, even the name is a joke. Patriot Act. Heh. :p

Last time I checked, Patriotism involved standing up for the values that made your country what it is. Not the removal of those values. *sigh*

Ignorance is Strength, War is Peace, my friend. ;)