NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/08/williams.execution.ap/index.html

So here we have a guy who did quite a few very bad things in his life, and was rightfully convicted for them. From what I can tell, he doesn't deny them. He was one of the founders of the gang known as the Crips. In the course of two robberies, he murdered or was a party to the murder of four people. These are undeniably crimes for which, in many states, the death penalty is legal, and any prosecutor probably would have pushed for them, as did the prosecutor in his case.

However, since being in prison, Williams has done a complete about-face. Not only is he repentant for his crimes, he has become a peace-activist. He has written children's books aimed at keeping kids out of gangs. He has actively spoken out against his former lifestyle and encouraged all gang members to give it up. There are those who report him as an influence in giving up, or simply not getting into, gang-life.

Now, after all of the appeals and legal wrangling, he is set to die on Tuesday. At this point, pretty much only clemency granted by Gov. Schwarzenegger can stop the execution - and he seems to be seriously considering it. Supporters of Williams say that life in prison, rather than execution, could allow him to continue to contribute to keeping kids out of gangs. Supporters of leaving his sentence as it is feel that the sentence should not be changed, no matter what he may have done to redeem himself. What do you think the decision should be?

[Poll coming]

Did you do this thread before...or did someone else? Deja vu...

Actually he did deny the murders and still does.

I say put him in for life.

When a guy's already in custody he's no longer a threat to society. Killing him is, in my opinion, just murder. Having said that, I'll bow to the will of the people, most of whom seem to believe in the death penalty.

I'd give him life. Even though he's done so many excellent things, he has still committed murder and deserves punishment. However, the good he has done since them, in my opinion, exempts him from death.

I don't like the death penalty, I think they shouldn't be given a way out for the crime they've committed. They should get life so they'll have many years to have the crime come back to haunt them.

Even though, Williams should be given clemency. He's turned his life around and has helped others. He should be spared so he can keep transmitting that message.

Yeah, Eut made a thread about this guy a while ago.

Yeah, Eut made a thread about this guy a while ago.

Oops. Must've missed that one. I glanced around for a thread already made, but I didn't do a search. *shrug*

He was one of the founders of the gang known as the Crips.

Anyone watch South Park?

You gotta be born a crip, you can't become one later in life like Christopher Reeve

the death penalty is both wrong and stupid, in this case and in general.

I'd give him life. Even though he's done so many excellent things, he has still committed murder and deserves punishment. However, the good he has done since them, in my opinion, exempts him from death.

i'd go even further. (some) people can change, and our judicial system typically recognizes this. why not apply it in all cases?

For the Canadians here...

Last night on CBC's The Hour, with George Stroumboulopoulos, they brought this very topic up, and he had Reverand Jesse Jackson on the show. Rev. Jackson brought a message of peace and made a good point about there being no real evidence to clear up the question of who-done-it.

It's been 25 years since Tookie Williams was behind bars.

It seems that this man that is on the chopping board, has done a few things that could count towards redemption including making books to encourage children not to go into gangs...

i'd go even further. people can change, and our judicial system typically recognizes this. why not apply it in all cases?

I'd probably downgrade it to life with parole after a few more years, to make sure he's truly committed, and from there he might be released on parole. If he's truly committed, I don't think he should be kept in prison if he could do more good as a free man...that's why I'd have that period after his clemency just to make sure.

1) im against the death penalty and would commute all death sentences to life in prison without possibility of parole

2) given the death penalty i dont see that mr williams is especially deserving of mercy of any kind.

3) if i were governor of california i would find a way to not have it be decided while im in office.

For the Canadians here...

Last night on CBC's The Hour, with George Stroumboulopoulos, they brought this very topic up, and he had Reverand Jesse Jackson on the show. Rev. Jackson brought a message of peace and made a good point about there being no real evidence to clear up the question of who-done-it.

It's been 25 years since Tookie Williams was behind bars.

It seems that this man that is on the chopping board, has done a few things that could count towards redemption including making books to encourage children not to go into gangs...
First of all the "Reverand" Jesse Jackson needs to keep his nose out of it .I'm so tired of seeing his face.Everytime something happens with the Blacks he has to be right in the middle.Who cares what he thinks,just like im sure many of you could care less what i think but oh well.Secondly "Tookie" as they call him has done the crime now its time to serve his punishment.Im tired of my tax money going to take care of these idiots.Im also tired of it taking 20 or mores years to give someone what they deserve.If they get the death penalty ,then Do it and get it over with.:headbang:

First of all the "Reverand" Jesse Jackson needs to keep his nose out of it .I'm so tired of seeing his face.Everytime something happens with the Blacks he has to be right in the middle.Who cares what he thinks

He's been a strong voice and leader for the African American community for 40 years. They care what he thinks. I care what he thinks. A lot of people, millions, care what he thinks.

Yes, he's made his mistakes (heimy town, for one), but people are capable of redemption and Jackson has apologised for that on numerous occasions. When Nixon tapes were found with Billy Graham making antisemitic comments, everyone jumped up and down screaming how Graham should be forgiven because of all the work he did bridging relations between Jewish people and Christians over the last 30 years of his life.

Why Graham and not Tookie? No, Graham didn't kill anyone (that we know of), but Graham also never really apologised for his comments - except a backhanded and rather insincere speech after he got caught.

Tookie has proven he is no longer a danger to society (by more than just being in prison) and the death penalty is barbaric and pointless.

So, I say, life sentence.

Oh ... and it's "Reverend" and shouldn't be in quotes as it is his title and he has earned it.

I'd probably downgrade it to life with parole after a few more years, to make sure he's truly committed, and from there he might be released on parole. If he's truly committed, I don't think he should be kept in prison if he could do more good as a free man...that's why I'd have that period after his clemency just to make sure.

ah, excellent. this sort of idea is what we in the biz refer to as 'sanity'.

He must be killed for his crimes as an example, do not grant clemency.

If you disagree, you are wrong. Not debatable. Kill the bastard!

Death to Tookie Williams!!

It doesn't matter what he's done since. He was sentenced to die. He oughtta die. I have little sympathy for murderers. What if Saddam Hussein became a model prisoner, writing books that persuaded future dictators, arguing for civil rights? I would say, big deal. That doesn't change his punishment, whatever the court decides it should be. Same with "Tookie."

I'd give him life. Even though he's done so many excellent things, he has still committed murder and deserves punishment. However, the good he has done since them, in my opinion, exempts him from death.

Agreed.

Yeah, Eut made a thread about this guy a while ago.

Are you thinkinng of Zooke's thread on this?

She was arguing strongly against Mr. Williams being executed.

It doesn't matter what he's done since.

do you agree or disagree with the concept of parole?

Whatever people's feelings on the whole death penalty matter, I can't help but think that the anti-capital punishment lobby would be able to choose a more sympathetic poster boy if they only put some effort in.

I mean, the founding member of the crips is hardly the least deserving person on death row at the moment I imagine.

Whatever people's feelings on the whole death penalty matter, I can't help but think that the anti-capital punishment lobby would be able to choose a more sympathetic poster boy if they only put some effort in.

I mean, the founding member of the crips is hardly the least deserving person on death row at the moment I imagine.

The facts are not so black and white.

And he is a Nobel Prize nominee for his post-incarceration work.

http://www.tookie.com/tookie_fact_sheet_10.18.05.pdf

He must be killed for his crimes as an example, do not grant clemency.

If you disagree, you are wrong. Not debatable. Kill the bastard!

Death to Tookie Williams!!

Uh, it IS debatable, that's the point. The man's been nominated for Nobel Peace Prizes for his anti-gang writings; if that's not turning oneself around, I don't know what is.

It doesn't matter what he's done since. He was sentenced to die. He oughtta die. I have little sympathy for murderers. What if Saddam Hussein became a model prisoner, writing books that persuaded future dictators, arguing for civil rights? I would say, big deal. That doesn't change his punishment, whatever the court decides it should be. Same with "Tookie."

Um. Clemency is also part of the normal criminal justice process.

We don't go by the "you were sentenced to X, so you always get X" rule.

It doesn't matter what he's done since. He was sentenced to die. He oughtta die.

So any punishment handed out by a court in the US is just? No other factors involved?

do you agree or disagree with the concept of parole?

Why must I either disagree or agree? This isn't parole we're talking about here, it's clemency. I'm sure both concepts have their place, but I do not believe either should be applied to a guy who murdered four people.

why is he still alive ?

why is he still alive ?

Executing is not something you want to rush! Or, some would say, do at all.

It doesn't matter what he's done since. He was sentenced to die. He oughtta die. I have little sympathy for murderers. What if Saddam Hussein became a model prisoner, writing books that persuaded future dictators, arguing for civil rights? I would say, big deal. That doesn't change his punishment, whatever the court decides it should be. Same with "Tookie."

You can't compare Tookie with Saddam Hussein!! :eek:

Remain incarcerated for what he did, no death penalty. Not because he deserves life, but because no one deserves death.

You can't compare Tookie with Saddam Hussein!! :eek:

I just did. ;) The principle for me is the same. Multiple murders. It's just Saddam had opportunity to get away with a lot more.

Executing is not something you want to rush! Or, some would say, do at all.


hmmm..... its a shame he did not feel that way.

The way I see it... clemency, parol should be contingent on one's rehabilitation. I don't see evidence of rehabilitation.

Sure he has done great work since being in prison... working to keep children out of gangs etc. But is that a sign of rehabilitation or just a sign of doing what he can to avoid being put to death.

Are the facts of his case under dispute? Only in his mind and his lawyers arguments it seems. He has had 25 years of appeals, and not once did any jury or judge or panel of judges find any evidence that would justify commuting his sentenance. Pretty conclusive, I would think.

So, given the fact that he his guilt is not in dispute by any reasonable person, we must look at whether he shows remorse for his actions.

He doesn't. He denied any involvement, and continues denying involvement in the events that led to his conviction. This does not show remorse.

No remorse, no rehabilitation.

Carry out his sentenance.

The way I see it... clemency, parol should be contingent on one's rehabilitation. I don't see evidence of rehabilitation.

Sure he has done great work since being in prison... working to keep children out of gangs etc. But is that a sign of rehabilitation or just a sign of doing what he can to avoid being put to death.

Are the facts of his case under dispute? Only in his mind and his lawyers arguments it seems. He has had 25 years of appeals, and not once did any jury or judge or panel of judges find any evidence that would justify commuting his sentenance. Pretty conclusive, I would think.

So, given the fact that he his guilt is not in dispute by any reasonable person, we must look at whether he shows remorse for his actions.

He doesn't. He denied any involvement, and continues denying involvement in the events that led to his conviction. This does not show remorse.

No remorse, no rehabilitation.

Carry out his sentenance.

If you are innocent, how do you show remorse?

Mr. Williams has shown remorse for his gang activity, but he denies the specific crimes of which he was accused.

Anyone familiar with our judicial system knows that courts can't commute a death sentence to life imprisonment unless their was legal error. That is different than the question of innocence.

And people should laugh at the notion that no one innocent can still be in jail or be executed.

(I'm not saying Mr. Williams is innocent, but only that he could be. There are facts that bring his conviction into question.)

hmmm..... its a shame he did not feel that way.

you're right, we shouldn't expect ourselves to be any better than a criminal. Perhaps we should just shoot people upon arrest?

Those "facts" have been reviewed numerous times over the last 25 years.

No reasonable person was able to find them credible.

No having his conviction or sentenance overturned for retrial, nothing.

He has had his day in court.

He is decidedly not innocent.

Those "facts" have been reviewed numerous times over the last 25 years.

No reasonable person was able to find them credible.

No having his conviction or sentenance overturned for retrial, nothing.

He has had his day in court.

He is decidedly not innocent.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to overturn a conviction and death sentence?

Do you know how many times the case was reviewed?

I doubt he is innocent, but it is possible and we shouldn't risk executing an innocent.

Regardless, that is side-issue. The main issue is his reform and contribution since his conviction.

Whatever people's feelings on the whole death penalty matter, I can't help but think that the anti-capital punishment lobby would be able to choose a more sympathetic poster boy if they only put some effort in.

I mean, the founding member of the crips is hardly the least deserving person on death row at the moment I imagine.

They had Caryl Chessman... he readily admitted his crimes, but denied being a rapist.. (the crime that sent him to his death). The case against him was based on eyewitness testimony, and, most importantly, he was sentenced to die under a kidnapping statute. He never killed anyone.

Unlike Tookie, Chessman was actually intelligent, and wrote his own books (several of them, thick autobiographical stuff), while Tookie had to ghostwrite a childrens' book... :rolleyes: People actually read Caryl Chessman's books.. they were best-sellers among teens and adults. Chessman had calls for clemency from several major world leaders... Tookie has a lone Swedish doctor nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize, and Snoop Dogg...

Tookie Williams has had a single scheduled execution date for a long while now. Caryl Chessman walked to the gas chamber a half dozen times, but was spared each time on appeal and send back to his cell, before he was eventually gassed. Frankly, my gut calls that cruel and unusual punishment, cruel at the very least.. Finally, Caryl Chessman's death warrant was signed by a strongly anti-death Governor, Edmund Brown, who executed the order for strictly legal reasons, he admitted. If anyone deserved clemency, it was common thug Caryl Chessman, not 4-time cold-blooded murderer Tookie Williams. But in both instances, the law prevailed, and both men are surely guilty.. changing the law is the way to go about things, not asking elected officials to decide the contents of an inmate's heart, an unknowable factor.

I find it rather insulting when people call either of these men heroes or role models (as one Rabbi has called Tookie Williams). But the real solution has to be legislated, within the law, not decided by lobbyists with claims of redemption and soclal worth.

(I'm not saying Mr. Williams is innocent, but only that he could be. There are facts that bring his conviction into question.)

And I could be Art Garfunkel. Were you in the courtroom for the original trial? My brother was, covering it for the Times. He is as liberal as it gets, and he said he deserves his punishment.

Can you rehab a sadistic, sociopathic guy who has no soul, and makes fun of the death throes of his victim? Me thinks no!!

I doubt he is innocent, but it is possible and we shouldn't risk executing an innocent.



Heck, everyone in prison is innocent, aren't they? Just victims of the man?

And I could be Art Garfunkel. Were you in the courtroom for the original trial? My brother was, covering it for the Times. He is as liberal as it gets, and he said he deserves his punishment.

Can you rehab a sadistic, sociopathic guy who has no soul, and makes fun of the death throes of his victim? Me thinks no!!

Have you heard of the fallacy "appeal to authority"?

You just compounded by the fact that your alleged authority is unverifiable.

Your soul detector must come in awfully handy, however. Do cats have souls?

Heck, everyone in prison is innocent, aren't they? Just victims of the man?

No. Most everyone in prison is guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted. Some, however, are innocent.

Or do you think our system never errs?

They had Caryl Chessman... he readily admitted his crimes, but denied being a rapist.. (the crime that sent him to his death). The case against him was based on eyewitness testimony, and, most importantly, he was sentenced to die under a kidnapping statute. He never killed anyone.

Unlike Tookie, Chessman was actually intelligent, and wrote his own books (several of them, thick autobiographical stuff), while Tookie had to ghostwrite a childrens' book... :rolleyes: People actually read Caryl Chessman's books.. they were best-sellers among teens and adults. Chessman had calls for clemency from several major world leaders... Tookie has a lone Swedish doctor nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize, and Snoop Dogg...

Tookie Williams has had a single scheduled execution date for a long while now. Caryl Chessman walked to the gas chamber a half dozen times, but was spared each time on appeal and send back to his cell, before he was eventually gassed. Frankly, my gut calls that cruel and unusual punishment, cruel at the very least.. Finally, Caryl Chessman's death warrant was signed by a strongly anti-death Governor, Edmund Brown, who executed the order for strictly legal reasons, he admitted. If anyone deserved clemency, it was common thug Caryl Chessman, not 4-time cold-blooded murderer Tookie Williams. But in both instances, the law prevailed, and both men are surely guilty.. changing the law is the way to go about things, not asking elected officials to decide the contents of an inmate's heart, an unknowable factor.

I find it rather insulting when people call either of these men heroes or role models (as one Rabbi has called Tookie Williams). But the real solution has to be legislated, within the law, not decided by lobbyists with claims of redemption and soclal worth.

This makes sense. A guy in 1960 was denied clemency when he should have gotten it. Therefore no one should get clemency. :headbang:

And clemency is within the law.

No. Most everyone in prison is guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted. Some, however, are innocent.

Or do you think our system never errs?

The system in my opion error's. But from what I understand about this character I think he needs the death sentance. There is no redemption great enough in my book that would keep him off death row.

No. Most everyone in prison is guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted. Some, however, are innocent.

Or do you think our system never errs?

I think he was being sarcastic buddy.

Anyway, he never confirms nor denys his envolvement, which just means he's hiding something that would risk his freedom. Also, he never renounced his association with the Crips. So the only real evidence of him being a changed man is what he says and writes in his children books. So addressing what he says, he's obviously not a moral or ethical person so what he says is highly suspect. And as far as the childrens books, that's completely irrelevent. If every murderer decided to write a series of childrens books to get out of their death sentence there'd be a lot more death row inmates featured in Barnes and Noble, you can bank on that.

So really he hasn't done anything at all to legitimize or back up what he says about peace. Nothing has changed whatsoever.

He's gettin' what's comin' to him. Karma's a bitch, eh, Tookie?

I just did. ;) The principle for me is the same. Multiple murders. It's just Saddam had opportunity to get away with a lot more.
Why don't you just go and totally Godwin yourself and compare him to Hitler while you're at it!

To commute his sentence to life in prison would undermine the integrity of the justice system. I can applaud his post incarceration efforts, but there is still a sentence to be carried out. If there was to be a reversal of the death penalty, apply it to subsequent murder convictions.

Regardless, that is side-issue. The main issue is his reform and contribution since his conviction.
That's my point. He has shown no "reform". He won't acknowledge that what he did was wrong, just continual denial.

The death penalty being right or wrong aside, we must put faith in the system, and the safeguards put in place. He has had his day in the system, had his 9131 days in the system in fact.

He has done nothing in those 25 years to show he has reformed at all.

Some people literaly make me want to vomit with rage.

He made a mistake in his youth. A desperate, vile mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. He has strived his entire adult life trying to make up for that mistake. DAYENU!

I made a mistake once on these forums. I pretended to be something I was not. Should I spend the rest of my life in prostrated apology for it, only to be slaughtered at the end like cattle?

No. We all make mistakes. How many have you made? What have you done to restitute those errors? Is it enough? Is there a limit to forgiveness?

Incidently, do we know what the families of the victims have said in Tookie's case? I'd be interested.

Some people literaly make me want to vomit with rage.

He made a mistake in his youth. A desperate, vile mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. He has strived his entire adult life trying to make up for that mistake. DAYENU!

I made a mistake once on these forums. I pretended to be something I was not. Should I spend the rest of my life in prostrated apology for it, only to be slaughtered at the end like cattle?

No. We all make mistakes. How many have you made? What have you done to restitute those errors? Is it enough? Is there a limit to forgiveness?

Incidently, do we know what the families of the victims have said in Tookie's case? I'd be interested.
Not do familiar with his life story are you.

He didn't commit one mistake. He was convicted of murdering 4 people in 2 seperate robberies. Only he knows how many he actually killed.

He has never shown the slightest bit of remorse for his actions.

He hasn't spent any time in your "protrated apology". And yes, he should spend the rest of his life in prostrated apology to the family members of every single person he killed. Right up until the time his sentence is carried out.

Were he to show remorse, then I would be more inclined to believe he was actually reformed.

I made a mistake once on these forums. I pretended to be something I was not. Should I spend the rest of my life in prostrated apology for it, only to be slaughtered at the end like cattle?

Guh? I hadn't heard.. what happened? Sounds rich.. You weren't that Michael_Jackson666 guy, were you? :p

Incidently, do we know what the families of the victims have said in Tookie's case? I'd be interested.

Yeah.. the mother of the 17-year old clerk wants him dead.. she's been making the rounds on talk radio.. the Asian family doesn't want anything, since they're dead.. he executed them all.. husband, wife and daughter. I guess we can put them in the "undecided" column for now.. :confused:

That's my point. He has shown no "reform". He won't acknowledge that what he did was wrong, just continual denial.

The death penalty being right or wrong aside, we must put faith in the system, and the safeguards put in place. He has had his day in the system, had his 9131 days in the system in fact.

He has done nothing in those 25 years to show he has reformed at all.

Under your thinking, no one that maintains his/her innocence should ever be given clemency or released on parole. They haven't shown "remorse" for the specific crimes of which they were convicted.

One can show remorse for one's entire life. That is what Williams has done.

Guh? I hadn't heard.. what happened? Sounds rich.. You weren't that Michael_Jackson666 guy, were you? :p



Yeah.. the mother of the 17-year old clerk wants him dead.. she's been making the rounds on talk radio.. the Asian family doesn't want anything, since they're dead.. he executed them all.. husband, wife and daughter. I guess we can put them in the "undecided" column for now.. :confused:

In her thread, Zooke had stuff about some of the families not wanting Williams executed. I don't have the link. Was Zooke wrong?

In her thread, Zooke had stuff about some of the families not wanting Williams executed. I don't have the link. Was Zooke wrong?

I've heard the clerk's mother on several programs, so there's no mistake there.. perhaps a relative of the immigrant family survived after all? I'd heard that the whole family had been killed, but there may be survivors, I'm not 100% certain.

Edit: gonna look that up tomorrow... time for some shuteye.. gotta be fresh to stand in line at the DMV tomorrow. :(

Dornierwes']I think he was being sarcastic buddy.

Anyway, he never confirms nor denys his envolvement, which just means he's hiding something that would risk his freedom. Also, he never renounced his association with the Crips. So the only real evidence of him being a changed man is what he says and writes in his children books. So addressing what he says, he's obviously not a moral or ethical person so what he says is highly suspect. And as far as the childrens books, that's completely irrelevent. If every murderer decided to write a series of childrens books to get out of their death sentence there'd be a lot more death row inmates featured in Barnes and Noble, you can bank on that.

So really he hasn't done anything at all to legitimize or back up what he says about peace. Nothing has changed whatsoever.

Nobel Prize nominations don't just get handed out to killers who 'write a series of childrens' books'. His work has gone a lot farther than just a few books.

In her thread, Zooke had stuff about some of the families not wanting Williams executed. I don't have the link. Was Zooke wrong?

"We implore you, governor, to find it in your heart. Talk to God. Save Tookie so that he can save others' lives," said Donald Lacy, 46, of Oakland. Lacy said he wanted vengeance after his 16-year-old daughter was killed by gang members in 1997, but later decided forgiveness was more rewarding.

From Fox News. (Why am I looking at Fox??)

To commute his sentence to life in prison would undermine the integrity of the justice system. I can applaud his post incarceration efforts, but there is still a sentence to be carried out. If there was to be a reversal of the death penalty, apply it to subsequent murder convictions.

Clemency is a part of the justice system, which, by the way, is not flawless.

To commute his sentence to life in prison would undermine the integrity of the justice system. I can applaud his post incarceration efforts, but there is still a sentence to be carried out. If there was to be a reversal of the death penalty, apply it to subsequent murder convictions.

The justice system does not have integrity. As I said in another thread on the subject, until every single person who has committed murder, or manslaughter while committing an armed robbery is sentenced to death, it is a miscarriage of justice to sentence Tookie to death. Why should a man who has achieved so much for his nation's most vulnerable youths be sentenced to death because he got the wrong jury, the wrong judge at the wrong time?

The justice system does not have integrity. As I said in another thread on the subject, until every single person who has committed murder, or manslaughter while committing an armed robbery is sentenced to death, it is a miscarriage of justice to sentence Tookie to death. Why should a man who has achieved so much for his nation's most vulnerable youths be sentenced to death because he got the wrong jury, the wrong judge at the wrong time?

He did not get the wrong judge, jury, or any of that whatsit. Williams' case went to the 9th District Circuit of Appeals (I am not by any means certain of that name, but the following statement is what's important) which grants more appeals than any other court. If he was ever going to get a better sentence, it would have been then, but even they had the sense to give him his rightful sentence.

This isn't about the children's books he's written since. And even if it were, I would be highly skeptical that his books do any more good than books telling kids to stay away from drugs, alcohol, and sex. But Williams is being executed for killing four people. He's refused to give up allegiance to his gang, which makes him effectively not actually changed in any sense. So lets look at this man as he was when he committed the murder.

Some buddies of Williams had tried to commit a robbery of a convenience store but decided against it.
Williams reportedly became upset that Darryl and Sims did not commit the robbery. Williams told the men that they would find another place to rob. Williams said that at the next location all of them would go inside and he would show them how to commit a robbery.
And so they went to the 7-Eleven, stole a measly $120 from the cash register, and shot the store manager twice with a shotgun.
Once back in Los Angeles, Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens. Williams said that he “didn’t want to leave any witnesses.” Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.” Coward claims that Williams bragged about killing Owens. Williams said, “You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.” Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed about Owens’ death.
Two weeks later, he killed an old chinese couple and their daughter ("Buddha-heads" as Williams called them) so that he could steal about $100 from their motel cash register.

Four people dead for $220. This sicko has already lived longer than he deserves. He isn't just asking for life, he's asking for freedom from jail. That in itself shows that he doesn't care about the people he killed.

He did not get the wrong judge, jury, or any of that whatsit (1). Williams' case went to the 9th District Circuit of Appeals (I am not by any means certain of that name, but the following statement is what's important) which grants more appeals than any other court. If he was ever going to get a better sentence, it would have been then, but even they had the sense to give him his rightful sentence.

This isn't about the children's books he's written since. And even if it were, I would be highly skeptical that his books do any more good than books telling kids to stay away from drugs, alcohol, and sex (2). But Williams is being executed for killing four people. He's refused to give up allegiance to his gang, which makes him effectively not actually changed in any sense. So lets look at this man as he was when he committed the murder 3.

Some buddies of Williams had tried to commit a robbery of a convenience store but decided against it.

And so they went to the 7-Eleven, stole a measly $120 from the cash register, and shot the store manager twice with a shotgun.

Two weeks later, he killed an old chinese couple and their daughter ("Buddha-heads" as Williams called them) so that he could steal about $100 from their motel cash register.

Four people dead for $220. This sicko has already lived longer than he deserves. He isn't just asking for life, he's asking for freedom from jail. That in itself shows that he doesn't care about the people he killed.

This just shows a very high level of ignorance about the lack of integrity of the justice system in the US and I don't even live there. Number one, it is not justice when you have people sitting in your prisons who have done far worse, who are not sentenced to death. Why is it that Williams should die, because he got a jury who decided that he should, and a judge that decided that he should, but a person who does the same thing does not get the death penalty because he happened to get a different judge and a different jury. Furthermore, have you got statistics showing how many convictions or sentences get overturned by the appeals court he appealed to? Because, though that court may grant more appeals than any other, I still doubt that it overturns a majority, or even a significant minority of verdicts. Which means that his not getting his sentence overturned means diddly-squat (1). His books are more powerful because they are written by him, by the ex-leader of one of the most powerful gangs in America. Kids relate to them, kids respect the message coming from someone who has been there and done that, not some teacher or book written by a university professor whose never actually lived in the world. Why do you think they ask reformed drug addicts to talk to classes about the dangers of drugs?2 And why should he give up allegiance to his gang? Just because he is a member (or former leader) does not mean that he is directly responsible for what they do, and vice-versa. Are we going to hold every Hell's Angel responsible for the actions of a few? Just because most Hell's Angels commit major crimes, does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to belong to the Hell's Angels?3

I don't like the death penalty, I think they shouldn't be given a way out for the crime they've committed. They should get life so they'll have many years to have the crime come back to haunt them.

Unless, of course, they're remorseless, get used to prison life, and manage to establish a prison hierarchy, with them near the top. Oops.

Even though, Williams should be given clemency. He's turned his life around and has helped others. He should be spared so he can keep transmitting that message.

I don't remember where I read this -- or even if it's true -- but supposedly he's been a very....troublesome....character in prison, regardless of the books. Fights, et al.

Some people literaly make me want to vomit with rage.

He made a mistake in his youth. A desperate, vile mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. He has strived his entire adult life trying to make up for that mistake. DAYENU!

I made a mistake once on these forums. I pretended to be something I was not. Should I spend the rest of my life in prostrated apology for it, only to be slaughtered at the end like cattle?

No. We all make mistakes. How many have you made? What have you done to restitute those errors? Is it enough? Is there a limit to forgiveness?

Incidently, do we know what the families of the victims have said in Tookie's case? I'd be interested.

Just want to point out that he helped create one of the most violent gangs in the US. Even if he didn't murder anyone, I'd still compare him to Hitler (or one of his lieutenants)--he helped create a violent and vile regime that lives off of threat and violence for its control over a specific territory (which it doesn't own)--and helped cause a gang war that's still going on to this day.

He was a warlord. There are some things you can't be forgiven.

Some people literaly make me want to vomit with rage.

He made a mistake in his youth. A desperate, vile mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. He has strived his entire adult life trying to make up for that mistake. DAYENU!

Just so you know, I'm cursing your ignorance of the topic in Mandarin right now, watching Firefly really improved my vocabulary.



Tookie boy has NEVER apologized to the families of the people he killed. He has NEVER announced that what he did was despicable and vile and has never noted that he was sorry of killing the people that he did. All he's done is write some crap children's books that have together sold less than 500 copies, and had his lawyers issue some nice press releases.

He hasn't spent any time in your "protrated apology". And yes, he should spend the rest of his life in prostrated apology to the family members of every single person he killed. Right up until the time his sentence is carried out.


Neither did OJ Simpson.

Funny, that.

I think OJ went golfing today.

Tookie boy has NEVER apologized to the families of the people he killed. He has NEVER announced that what he did was despicable and vile and has never noted that he was sorry of killing the people that he did.

He has maintained his innocence. Why would you apologize for something you were innocent of?

He has maintained his innocence. Why would you apologize for something you were innocent of?
Riiight. And the sky's neon pink with hot green striping.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens, pulling the sawed-off shotgun from under his jacket and told Owens to “shut up and keep walking.” While pointing the shotgun at Owens’ back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. Not long after, Williams blew out a security camera and then killed Owens, shooting him twice in the back at point blank range as he lay prone on the storage room floor

Unless Tookie boy went back and got one of his friends and forced them to shoot the clerk, I somehow doubt he's innocent of that one. Or has he come up with a explanation about how he's on camera, shoots it out, and mysteriously the clerk dies from a shotgun wound without it being him?

This just shows that people can change. The death penalty should be abolished. We're the only modern, western nation that does it regularly. IT has never worked for the whatever thousand years it's been in practice. We've tried dozens of ways and people will always murder if they want to.

He made a mistake in his youth. A desperate, vile mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. He has strived his entire adult life trying to make up for that mistake. DAYENU!

I made a mistake once on these forums. I pretended to be something I was not. Should I spend the rest of my life in prostrated apology for it, only to be slaughtered at the end like cattle?

No. We all make mistakes. How many have you made? What have you done to restitute those errors? Is it enough? Is there a limit to forgiveness?



Ah yes. Everyone makes mistakes, even murderers.

"Oops! I killed four people! I HATE when I accidentally do that!"

Neither did OJ Simpson.

Funny, that.

I think OJ went golfing today.

I'm on your side, but baaaad analogy- OJ was found innocent, remember?

Just want to point out that he helped create one of the most violent gangs in the US. Even if he didn't murder anyone, I'd still compare him to Hitler (or one of his lieutenants)--he helped create a violent and vile regime that lives off of threat and violence for its control over a specific territory (which it doesn't own)--and helped cause a gang war that's still going on to this day.

He was a warlord. There are some things you can't be forgiven.

Right, he's kinda like Hitler... if Hitler had spent the rest of his life denouncing and actively working against fascism, totalitarianism and anti-semitism.

Just so you know, I'm cursing your ignorance of the topic in Mandarin right now, watching Firefly really improved my vocabulary.



Tookie boy has NEVER apologized to the families of the people he killed. He has NEVER announced that what he did was despicable and vile and has never noted that he was sorry of killing the people that he did. All he's done is write some crap children's books that have together sold less than 500 copies, and had his lawyers issue some nice press releases.

Tookie BOY? The man's in his 50s or something :eek:

How many times to I have to repeat it? "Crap childrens' books" don't get nominated for Nobel Peace Prizes.

I'm on your side, but baaaad analogy- OJ was found innocent, remember?

That's pretty much the point. OJ pretty certainly committed that murder.

Tookie may or may not have committed the murder but was found guilty (apparently there is now DNA evidence showing he probably didn't commit the mursers) and so is probably going to die on tuesday.

To make a comparison for Ravenshrike and co.

Whe I was seven some guy got bitten in a fight I had nothing to do with. He said I bit him and the teachers believed him, I never apologised because I did nothing but I was the one blacklisted over the whole thing.

Whoever actually did it wandered away scot-free and never had to apologise.

Four people dead for $220.

So, what's the appropriate amount to steal if you're going to kill four people? ;)

Right, he's kinda like Hitler... if Hitler had spent the rest of his life denouncing and actively working against fascism, totalitarianism and anti-semitism.

Too bad he couldn't actually stop what he started (you know, the violent gang part?). If he can't do that, he hasn't made up for what he's done. Not even close.

Just because he's decided to champion some other causes doesn't get him out of being responsible for what he's done, what he's caused.

That's pretty much the point. OJ pretty certainly committed that murder.

Tookie may or may not have committed the murder but was found guilty (apparently there is now DNA evidence showing he probably didn't commit the mursers) and so is probably going to die on tuesday.

To make a comparison for Ravenshrike and co.

Whe I was seven some guy got bitten in a fight I had nothing to do with. He said I bit him and the teachers believed him, I never apologised because I did nothing but I was the one blacklisted over the whole thing.

Whoever actually did it wandered away scot-free and never had to apologise.

Ohhhh, I understand now. I hadn't heard about the DNA evidence, do you have a source?

Right, he's kinda like Hitler... if Hitler had spent the rest of his life denouncing and actively working against fascism, totalitarianism and anti-semitism.
yes, and even if Hitler had spent the rest of his life working agianst, etc. etc... he still would have deserved the death penalty for the crimes he committed or ordered to be committed. When you have a rabid animal there is no recourse but to destory it. you do not keep it in a pen to see if it can be "cured". There are heinous enough crimes that the perpatrator must pay the ultimate price for.

He did not get the wrong judge, jury, or any of that whatsit. Williams' case went to the 9th District Circuit of Appeals (I am not by any means certain of that name, but the following statement is what's important) which grants more appeals than any other court. If he was ever going to get a better sentence, it would have been then, but even they had the sense to give him his rightful sentence.

I hate to break it to you, but appeals courts don't have the authority to change sentences unless they are declaring the sentence in question unconstitutional or the sentence was reached in a manner that was not legal. They could overturn his conviction (which would obviously overturn the sentence) or not do so.

yes, and even if Hitler had spent the rest of his life working agianst, etc. etc... he still would have deserved the death penalty for the crimes he committed or ordered to be committed. When you have a rabid animal there is no recourse but to destory it. you do not keep it in a pen to see if it can be "cured". There are heinous enough crimes that the perpatrator must pay the ultimate price for.

I see. So you're not a big fan of actual justice then, eh? Just revenge.

When you have a rabid animal there is no recourse but to destory it. you do not keep it in a pen to see if it can be "cured". There are heinous enough crimes that the perpatrator must pay the ultimate price for.

False analogy. There is a fundamenntal difference between humanity and the rest of the animal kingdom. There's no good reason to kill anyone, regardless of what they've done.

Whe I was seven some guy got bitten in a fight I had nothing to do with. He said I bit him and the teachers believed him, I never apologised because I did nothing but I was the one blacklisted over the whole thing.

Whoever actually did it wandered away scot-free and never had to apologise.
Okay, now what if there had been a security camera there, it would have proven you weren't near the scene of the crime. OTOH, there is video evidence that Tookie was there, and that he shot out the camera. Mysteriously, the clerk ends up dead by shotgun wound, which is the weapon Tookie used to shoot out said camera. Or are we supposed to assume that someone else came along and just for kicks killed the clerk?

Nobel Prize nominations don't just get handed out to killers who 'write a series of childrens' books'. His work has gone a lot farther than just a few books.
any university professor can submit a name for consideration. its not all that hard to get nominated, its hard to win.

"We implore you, governor, to find it in your heart. Talk to God. Save Tookie so that he can save others' lives," said Donald Lacy, 46, of Oakland. Lacy said he wanted vengeance after his 16-year-old daughter was killed by gang members in 1997, but later decided forgiveness was more rewarding.

From Fox News. (Why am I looking at Fox??)

That's sweet of her to say, but she's not one of Tookie's victims, and she's not a member of one of the families Tookie victimized. Keruvalia was asking how the victims' families felt.

I hate to break it to you, but appeals courts don't have the authority to change sentences unless they are declaring the sentence in question unconstitutional or the sentence was reached in a manner that was not legal. They could overturn his conviction (which would obviously overturn the sentence) or not do so.

Right... he has had 25 years for appeals. In all that time, in all those appeal attempts, his conviction was not overturned, he was never exhonerated, he wasn't given a re-trial.

There is no question of his guilt or innocence.

I'm on your side, but baaaad analogy- OJ was found innocent, remember?
Well, it wasn't so much as an innocent verdict, as much as it was a slap in the prosecutions face.

The jury just didn't think the prosecution upheld it's burdon of proof.

Right... he has had 25 years for appeals. In all that time, in all those appeal attempts, his conviction was not overturned, he was never exhonerated, he wasn't given a re-trial.

There is no question of his guilt or innocence.

I've played devil's advocate a bit here, but let me be serious.

You act as though our system has never convicted (and upheld that conviction on appeal) an innocent man.

Personally, I think Tookie is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but that does not assure me that it is not possible we could execute an innocent man.

Further, the appellate process is not designed to look at issues of rehabilitation or reform. The clemency process is designed for that purpose. Here, the federal appellate court actually went so far as to recommend clemency for Mr. Williams.

So, sure, he is guilty. That is why he should get clemency to life imprisonment instead of an execution.

Frankly, those of you that simply thirst for the blood of executions (not just in this case, but routinely on these forums) are a bit scary.

Well, it wasn't so much as an innocent verdict, as much as it was a slap in the prosecutions face.

The jury just didn't think the prosecution upheld it's burdon of proof.

C'mon, now. You can't have it both ways.

If there can be no doubt about Mr. Williams guilt because of what a jury said, then there can be no doubt as to Mr. Simpson's innocence because of what a jury said.

And don't tell me that the jury didn't find him innocent. You are innocent until proven guilty. If the prosecution fails to prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then you are innocent. Simple logic.

My thoughts on Mr. Williams: Too many have died already. Killing more people doesn't ameliorate the situation, and the occasion of his death ought not to give anyone a sense of closure. Seeking closure through the death of another human being is utterly twisted and should be actively dissuaded. Retribution is far from being a pretty word.

That's all I got. No death penalty here. Does not compute.

He did not get the wrong judge, jury, or any of that whatsit. Williams' case went to the 9th District Circuit of Appeals (I am not by any means certain of that name, but the following statement is what's important) which grants more appeals than any other court. If he was ever going to get a better sentence, it would have been then, but even they had the sense to give him his rightful sentence.

1. It is not true that the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit "grants more appeals than any court." You simply made that up.

2. Ironically, it actually is a very serious isssue in this case (that no one has raised before) about the jury in William's case. In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In a rather astonishing precedent, the Ninth Cirucit said that was OK. See link (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/9B878DF6D6261E8F88256F9C00008543/$file/9999018o.pdf?openelement).

It is more than reasonable to think the Ninth Circuit erred in upholding William's conviction under the facts regarding the jury selection. Furthermore, the Ninth Circuit panel took the highly unusual step of recommending that Mr. William's get clemency. link (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/09/11/BA91326.DTL)



Yet more reasons why clemency may be in order.

Right... he has had 25 years for appeals. In all that time, in all those appeal attempts, his conviction was not overturned, he was never exhonerated, he wasn't given a re-trial.

There is no question of his guilt or innocence.

The issue of clemency is not an issue of guilt or innocence. Generally, a prisoner granted clemency is assumed to be guilty, but simply, for whatever reason, not to deserve the death penalty.

BTW, President George W. Bush's Council on Service and Civic Participation bestowed upon Stanley Williams the “Presidential Call to Service Award.”

The letter from President Bush congratulating Williams for the award praised him for having contributed to the “build[ing of] a culture of citizenship, service, and responsibility in America.”

BTW, President George W. Bush's Council on Service and Civic Participation bestowed upon Stanley Williams the “Presidential Call to Service Award.”

The letter from President Bush congratulating Williams for the award praised him for having contributed to the “build[ing of] a culture of citizenship, service, and responsibility in America.”
I am impressed. I would never have thought that Bush would actually do something in line with his "compassionate conservative" doctrine.

For the record, I voted for abolishing the death penalty.

Personally, I think Tookie is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but that does not assure me that it is not possible we could execute an innocent man.

Tookie is far, far from an innocent man. At best he founded one of the deadliest gangs in america and killed one of the four people he is accused of killing, unless there was a giant conspiracy involving the security camera tape. At worst he killed all four and has ordered killings from his cell(entirely possible, the Mob did this quite often and in many ways the Crips, Bloods, and MS-13 operate like the mob, only less classy and more violent). Personally, the one killing is more than enough justification for the death penalty, given the way it was done. For that matter, he still hasn't renounced his connections to the Crips or given any information on it's structure to police. Doesn't sound very repenetant or reformed to me.

Tookie is far, far from an innocent man. At best he founded one of the deadliest gangs in america and killed one of the four people he is accused of killing, unless there was a giant conspiracy involving the security camera tape. At worst he killed all four and has ordered killings from his cell(entirely possible, the Mob did this quite often and in many ways the Crips, Bloods, and MS-13 operate like the mob, only less classy and more violent). Personally, the one killing is more than enough justification for the death penalty, given the way it was done

I thought I made clear that Tookie is guilty.

But you make clear you are against the whole idea of clemency, because clemency doesn't turn on guilt or innocence.


For that matter, he still hasn't renounced his connections to the Crips or given any information on it's structure to police. Doesn't sound very repenetant or reformed to me.

I believe this to be untrue. In fact, Mr. Williams has apologized for even creating the Crips in the first place.

I believe this to be untrue. In fact, Mr. Williams has apologized for even creating the Crips in the first place.

It's all here (http://www.tookie.com/apology.html).

I think he should be executed regardless of what he did. His apologies are probably just lies to try and get himself off death row. But even if he was genuinely remorseful, they should still execute him. Sorry doesn't change what he did, and I think there are some crimes where people don't deserve to be forgiven or rehabilitated. He's scum and needs to be given the punishment he deserves.

I think he should be executed regardless of what he did. His apologies are probably just lies to try and get himself off death row.

If he was just trying to get himself off death row, I doubt that he would do as much as he has. People like that say, "Seriously, I'm sorry," but don't attempt to do anything about it. He doesn't meet that description.

But even if he was genuinely remorseful, they should still execute him. Sorry doesn't change what he did, and I think there are some crimes where people don't deserve to be forgiven or rehabilitated. He's scum and needs to be given the punishment he deserves.

Do you really think revenge is a legitimate function of government? I always thought the idea behind executions was that it takes dangerous men that we think cannot be rehabilitated or contribute to society out of society. This man seems to have been rehabilitated, through no effort of our own, and is contributing to society.

Meanwhile, no one *deserves* to be forgiven, or maybe even rehabilitated. We do those things because we are not, ourselves, criminals. We do them because we believe that human beings, deep down, are often good and all sorts of circumstances can lead them to crime - often circumstances that can be changed. We do them because functioning members of society are better for everyone, including themselves, than criminals. If someone can be rehabilitated, why shouldn't we try?

Meanwhile, no one *deserves* to be forgiven, or maybe even rehabilitated. We do those things because we are not, ourselves, criminals. We do them because we believe that human beings, deep down, are often good and all sorts of circumstances can lead them to crime - often circumstances that can be changed. We do them because functioning members of society are better for everyone, including themselves, than criminals. If someone can be rehabilitated, why shouldn't we try?
We all deserve to be forgiven.