NationStates Jolt Archive

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

Go cry in your beer some more, champ.

Go cry in your beer some more, champ.

Just helping prove my point....this is EXACTLY what im talking about.

Privately owned forums == No free speech

You know what really grinds my gears? You America! F*ck you! (sorry Family Guy rules)

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

I glanced at your post and all I saw was the highlighted bit. What the fuck is a 'liberal'? Please give YOUR definiton becuase I feel you are bandying that word around again, confusing what it actually means or being ignorant of it. Also, be aware that liberal in American DOES NOT mean liberal in Europe or Australia/NZ etc etc.

Most people don't like anyone with a differing opinion.

Privately owned forums == No free speech

I guess that really pisses off the commies here. The privately owned part, not the free speech part.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?
It's not that you can't speak. It's that there are so many on here who think being "religious" is a load of crap and who take great delight at pointing that out to all and sundry, particularly Christians, at every opportunity.

You can choose to allow this to frustrate you, or you can choose to let it build your faith. The choice is up to you. :)

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?
Critisizing someone has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedon of speech has nothing at all to do with freedom from criticism. In fact, freedom of speech is in place to protect people's ability to critisize.

I glanced at your post and all I saw was the highlighted bit. What the fuck is a 'liberal'? Please give YOUR definiton becuase I feel you are bandying that word around again, confusing what it actually means or being ignorant of it. Also, be aware that liberal in American DOES NOT mean liberal in Europe or Australia/NZ etc etc.

Yeah yeah...I'm an American so naturally when I saw liberal I mean American liberal...so for a universal term, I mean "left".

It's not that you can't speak. It's that there are so many on here who think being "religious" is a load of crap and who take great delight at pointing that out to all and sundry, particularly Christians, at every opportunity.

You can choose to allow this to frustrate you, or you can choose to let it build your faith. The choice is up to you. :)

I'm actually not Christian, I was just wondering due to the immature and totally rude attitude I have seen from lefties towards Christians....they assume Christians are automatically a troll.

Critisizing someone has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedon of speech has nothing at all to do with freedom from criticism. In fact, freedom of speech is in place to protect people's ability to critisize.
Yo! Cannot! Whut's happenin', baby? :D

What sort of voodoo is permeating from these forums that's robbing you of your voice and of your belief?

It's has more do to with the attitude and behavior of the religious folk more than it does with what they're saying.


Xian: "Follow the Bible or burn, filthy heathen! There should be a law...."

Atheist: "Uh, I looked through that book, and I think it's a bit logically unsound...."

Xian: "Oh, my god. I'm getting persecuted here!"

Yeah yeah...I'm an American so naturally when I saw liberal I mean American liberal...so for a universal term, I mean "left".

Ok, so long as we're clear ;) :p

What sort of voodoo is permeating from these forums that's robbing you of your voice and of your belief?

It's has more do to with the attitude and behavior of the religious folk more than it does with what they're saying.


Xian: "Follow the Bible or burn, filthy heathen! There should be a law...."

Atheist: "Uh, I looked through that book, and I think it's a bit logically unsound...."

Xian: "Oh, my god. I'm getting persecuted here!"

From what I havce seen its more like this

Christian: As a religious conservative I belei....

*Atheist interrupts*

Atheist: Shut up, ya troll!

Wait wait wait, looking through the first and second page, I see that the "Convert, you lousy heathens" thread is still open and the only anti-christian thread is (judging from the title) rightfully locked as flamebait.

Where is the foundation for this little tizzy?

From what I havce seen its more like this

Christian: As a religious conservative I belei....

*Atheist interrupts*

Atheist: Shut up, ya troll!

So would it be ok if that was an Islamic conservative? Or is it purely the fact that Christian conservatives get railed on?

I think we would all be mad if they took away free speech. because that just retarted.

From what I havce seen its more like this

Christian: As a religious conservative I belei....

*Atheist interrupts*

Atheist: Shut up, ya troll!

Which particular religious conservative are we talking about here? From what I've seen (mind you I haven't been on the forums long) the religious folk who are respectful tend to be shown respect in return. It's usually the more belligerent ones that earn the troll moniker.

So would it be ok if that was an Islamic conservative? Or is it purely the fact that Christian conservatives get railed on?

Christians, simply because its not P.C. to rag on arabs and everyone knows that lefties structure their lives around what is P.C. and what is not.

Christians, simply because its not P.C. to rag on arabs ....

O....kay.... You know not all Muslims are Arabs right, just for the record?

Christians, simply because its not P.C. to rag on arabs and everyone knows that lefties structure their lives around what is P.C. and what is not.
Have you seen the quality of christians you have here who have been labeled as a troll? Loyal christians, greenlander, neo rogalia and a few other bad ones who escape me are the ones who tend to start the whole mess by posting inflamatory stuff first.

O....kay.... You know not all Muslims are Arabs right, just for the record?
yes but about 99% of them are so forgive me for not including that 1%

Christians, simply because its not P.C. to rag on arabs and everyone knows that lefties structure their lives around what is P.C. and what is not.

Wait, so 'leftie' = 'atheist', who hates christians, but for some reason still loves other religions that are equally primitive and repressive, if no more so?

O....kay.... You know not all Muslims are Arabs right, just for the record?

Yes, but most are. Don't be asinine. (actually be asinine)

Wait, so 'leftie' = 'atheist', who hates christians, but for some reason still loves other religions that are equally primitive and repressive, if no more so?

Lefties only like the sucky religions. Seriously, who the hell would be a Buddhist?

I've written four different replies for this thread and haven't had the balls to hit the submit button on any of them. The moderators have pussified me!

The trolling is pretty much equal on the part of both parties here at NationStates. Its also more or less something we pride ourselves on. If you can't beat them, yell at them till they shut up. Much like Bill O'Reilly actually. If a Christian comes onto the forum and presents a clearly thought out case on a topic they want to discuss, it is treated like the semi-serious debate that tends to pop up in General from time to time. If they immediatly come out kicking and screaming, then they get what they deserve, a big fat smack on the ass. If an atheist does that here, the response is more or less the same, because everyone in general loves getting people they don't like in trouble. It is the NationStates way.

Grab a cookie and some warm milk, sit back and relax, and watch the flames fly. It saves your fingers wear and tear and provides for a good laugh every now and then.

~Sincerely, the PR department on NSGeneral

Yeah yeah...I'm an American so naturally when I saw liberal I mean American liberal...so for a universal term, I mean "left".

Actually, IMHO, the vast majority of atheists on this forum tend to be libertarian, not liberal. (assuming of course you mean american liberal and not classic liberal) And the reason you don't find any atheist republicans is because the republican party is a puppet of the religious right. (well, at least highly influenced by it.)

Wait wait wait, looking through the first and second page, I see that the "Convert, you lousy heathens" thread is still open and the only anti-christian thread is (judging from the title) rightfully locked as flamebait.
I concur...and nice name. It seems...familiar somehow.


edit: And to the people who think 99% of muslims are arabs, think again. Most arabs may be muslims, but arabs make up only about 15% of all muslims.

Yes, but most are. Don't be asinine. (actually be asinine)

No, its like if someone states that ALL Americans voted for G.W. Bush.

its not true- its a generalisation. Get the basic facts straight. Is that so hard?

It's not that you can't speak. It's that there are so many on here who think being "religious" is a load of crap and who take great delight at pointing that out to all and sundry, particularly Christians, at every opportunity.

You can choose to allow this to frustrate you, or you can choose to let it build your faith. The choice is up to you. :)


Speaking from Atheist knowledge, the reason why we "point it out" at "every opportunity" and so on, and so forth is because we're the only ones who DON'T try to "convert" anyone else to it. And I, for one, never tell anyone, Christian or other that their religion is wrong.. yet, every christian I've ever met thinks they can tell me my beliefs, and lack-there-of is wrong, and they will pray for me to hope I accept God. What Atheist will do that?

Just my opinion. I'd rather be a troll than sheep.. so.. meh.

No, its like if someone states that ALL Americans voted for G.W. Bush.

its not true- its a generalisation. Get the basic facts straight. Is that so hard?

So what percentage of Muslims are Arabs? About 50%? No? It's a lot more than that? Yeah thanks anyways.

From what I havce seen its more like this

Christian: As a religious conservative I belei....

*Atheist interrupts*

Atheist: Shut up, ya troll!

How do you interrupt someone in the middle of a post?

Anyway, here's some insight into why Christians tend to be bitchslapped:

1] "The reason for the season!" I can think of at least 5 holidays, including Hanukkah, that have been celebrated at this time of the year longer than Christmas and, in some cases, since long before Jesus was born. By proclaiming your man-god is the only reason any celebration happens at this time of year, you alienate the rest of us. Not a good way to win friends and influence people. I'm sure you personally are not like this, but if you just walk outside and look around or watch 5 minutes of television, you'll see that this attitude predominates Christianity.

2] "There is no way to the Father but through me." That self-righteous drivel is one of the worst things going against you. In that one sentence, that one ideaology, your people have said "Jesus or Hell, take your pick" to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, and the assorted other 2/3rds of the world. It is the inescapable truth of being Christian that you must believe that anyone who has not turned to Jesus is hellbound. If you don't believe that, then you must therefore not recognize the divinity of Jesus and, thus, aren't actually Christian. Since you believe that, which means you believe I personally am doomed to Hell and am hated by God, then I reserve the right to bitchslap you from time to time.

3] Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jim Jones, the Inquisitions, the destruction of the original peoples of America, the constant push to include the Gospel in the Constitution, the witch trials, the spreading of lies and slander against various Pagan peoples of Europe to spread your version of the truth, the demonization of the Jewish people, the Holocaust (which many Christians turned a blind eye to), the Aryan Nation, the enslavement of Africans, the demonization of Muslims, the KKK, Christian Identity, neo-Nazism, and the God Warrior are all things we have to look past. It's a lot to look past.

4] Constantly demanding Muslims speak out against Osama bin Laden, but merely shrugging and blowing it off if anyone mentions anything in #3.

I would go on, but I think that's enough.

Now come down off the cross, somebody needs the wood.

yes but about 99% of them are so forgive me for not including that 1%

5] Ignorance. Deliberate ignorance.

Arabs only make up 13% of the world's Muslims. The vast majority are Southeast Asian and White.

Im a leftist and a Christian. So quit generalizing.

Speaking from Atheist knowledge, the reason why we "point it out" at "every opportunity" and so on, and so forth is because we're the only ones who DON'T try to "convert" anyone else to it. And I, for one, never tell anyone, Christian or other that their religion is wrong.. yet, every christian I've ever met thinks they can tell me my beliefs, and lack-there-of is wrong, and they will pray for me to hope I accept God. What Atheist will do that?

Just my opinion. I'd rather be a troll than sheep.. so.. meh.
Why does the fact that someone thinks so highly of you that they want you to go to "heaven" bother you? I would think that anyone being so concerned about you would please you.

Well it ain't a 100%.:rolleyes:
Nice to see this thread was taken seriously.

ANYWAY, the arguments/flames are rather equal on here. From time to time, it sways on way or another- but mostly its in balance.... almost as if someone is using some sort of 'force' to keep the balance... :p

Which particular religious conservative are we talking about here? From what I've seen (mind you I haven't been on the forums long) the religious folk who are respectful tend to be shown respect in return. It's usually the more belligerent ones that earn the troll moniker.

True ... I don't think anyone's ever taken issue with the fact that I'm Muslim aside from puppet trolls. But, then again, I don't think I've ever once bugged anyone about what I believe being the end-all-be-all of truth.

I concur...and nice name. It seems...familiar somehow.


Thanks, back at ya. (you should check out my flag (http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/cannot_think_of_a_name.jpg))
There are a few nameless nations boping around. Occasionally I think we should form a nameless coalition...

Wait, so 'leftie' = 'atheist', who hates christians, but for some reason still loves other religions that are equally primitive and repressive, if no more so?

Thats what I'm talking about. Calling something people live their lives by primitive and repressive, but when someone says atheists are immoral and unethical....they freak out and call him a troll. It seems absurd. Have a little respect for people beleifs, even if you do not beleive in them. Theres no need to call them primitive......

*sigh*

Why can't everyone just be like the Church of England, and not believe in god.

So what percentage of Muslims are Arabs? About 50%? No? It's a lot more than that? Yeah thanks anyways.
Your proof of this?

5] Ignorance. Deliberate ignorance.

Arabs only make up 13% of the world's Muslims. The vast majority are Southeast Asian and White.
THANK YOU! :D

*Big homemade cookie to Keruvalia*

Thats what I'm talking about. Calling something people live their lives by primitive and repressive, but when someone says atheists are immoral and unethical....they freak out and call him a troll. It seems absurd. Have a little respect for people beleifs, even if you do not beleive in them. Theres no need to call them primitive......
People with weak personalities or weak philosophical positions often need others to look down upon. ( shrug )

Why does the fact that someone thinks so highly of you that they want you to go to "heaven" bother you?

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that you'll never be able to have this conversation with a Christian:

"Wanna be Christian?"
"No."
"Ok."

It also bothers me that Christians don't realise that I'm already going to Paradise, inshallah, and I don't need Jesus to get there.

5] Ignorance. Deliberate ignorance.

Arabs only make up 13% of the world's Muslims. The vast majority are Southeast Asian and White.

How bout central Asian? and what vast majority of white muslims are you talking about?

What is it with Christians and a martyr complex?

Frankly I agree with the original poster of this thread....
Eveyone has a right to free speech. And no one has the ablility to take that away from us...In a privately owned forum, you should be respectful of the owner's wishes...ie...you don't like it make a new site with a forum to complain but don't do it here...you still are speaking but in a new area...

And don't come down on me and assume that I am christian, conservative or any such nonsense. I am none of those and frankly it is not anyone elses business what I am, unless I want to tell you.

The fact of the matter is no one should be judged for their religion, ever, it is their right to choose....that being said they do NOT have the right to condemn others of a different religion and do not have the right to push their values and beliefs on other people. *hint hint government leaders*

The world will never truely be at peace and get along with everyone else, but we can work to make tolerating each other a bit easier:fluffle:

So what percentage of Muslims are Arabs?

About 13.

True ... I don't think anyone's ever taken issue with the fact that I'm Muslim aside from puppet trolls. But, then again, I don't think I've ever once bugged anyone about what I believe being the end-all-be-all of truth.
A Jewish Muslim who chronically pulls people's legs is hardly someone to be taken seriously. Heh!

THANK YOU! :D

*Big homemade cookie to Keruvalia*

Hey, dammit, I said it first! :p

How do you interrupt someone in the middle of a post?

Anyway, here's some insight into why Christians tend to be bitchslapped:

1] "The reason for the season!" I can think of at least 5 holidays, including Hanukkah, that have been celebrated at this time of the year longer than Christmas and, in some cases, since long before Jesus was born. By proclaiming your man-god is the only reason any celebration happens at this time of year, you alienate the rest of us. Not a good way to win friends and influence people. I'm sure you personally are not like this, but if you just walk outside and look around or watch 5 minutes of television, you'll see that this attitude predominates Christianity.

2] "There is no way to the Father but through me." That self-righteous drivel is one of the worst things going against you. In that one sentence, that one ideaology, your people have said "Jesus or Hell, take your pick" to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, and the assorted other 2/3rds of the world. It is the inescapable truth of being Christian that you must believe that anyone who has not turned to Jesus is hellbound. If you don't believe that, then you must therefore not recognize the divinity of Jesus and, thus, aren't actually Christian. Since you believe that, which means you believe I personally am doomed to Hell and am hated by God, then I reserve the right to bitchslap you from time to time.

3] Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jim Jones, the Inquisitions, the destruction of the original peoples of America, the constant push to include the Gospel in the Constitution, the witch trials, the spreading of lies and slander against various Pagan peoples of Europe to spread your version of the truth, the demonization of the Jewish people, the Holocaust (which many Christians turned a blind eye to), the Aryan Nation, the enslavement of Africans, the demonization of Muslims, the KKK, Christian Identity, neo-Nazism, and the God Warrior are all things we have to look past. It's a lot to look past.

4] Constantly demanding Muslims speak out against Osama bin Laden, but merely shrugging and blowing it off if anyone mentions anything in #3.

I would go on, but I think that's enough.

Now come down off the cross, somebody needs the wood.

Actually, there was nothing Christian about the holocaust, most of the nazis who beleived in the nazi beleifs were atheists. Same goes with neo-nazis...they are mostly atheists.

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that you'll never be able to have this conversation with a Christian:

"Wanna be Christian?"
"No."
"Ok."

It also bothers me that Christians don't realise that I'm already going to Paradise, inshallah, and I don't need Jesus to get there.
Whatever you choose to believe, my friend. Or whatever you choose to alledge you believe. Or whatever you want others to think you believe. Just ... whatever! :D

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that you'll never be able to have this conversation with a Christian:

"Wanna be Christian?"
"No."
"Ok."

It also bothers me that Christians don't realise that I'm already going to Paradise, inshallah, and I don't need Jesus to get there.

Yah, you really run with the wrong crowd. Honestly dude, I could point you at some churches that would not only never ask you to become a christian, they would get angry if you tried to join.

I guess it's a texas thing.

Why does the fact that someone thinks so highly of you that they want you to go to "heaven" bother you? I would think that anyone being so concerned about you would please you.

I didn't say it bothers me. Simply, I am like a scientist. I need physical proof to know it's real. The shit my life has been dealt is real, and the help I asked for never came. Why would I want to continue believing that there's someone out there to help me, when I couldn't get any when I really needed it?

Also. With the recent destructive storms to hit the Eastern States, and kill all those people, and yet, all the people who lived "thank God" made me look and think "Hey, God created this world, he controls it, basically God killed all those people, and ruined the lif of so many others, and yet some sheep still thank him they lived." Just makes me laugh.

The day I get proof that God is real, when he comes down to me and shows himself, and tells me he's sorry he wasn't there for me when I needed help, I will appologize to everyone who I ever told I didn't believe in God.

I assume a lot of people will be waiting quite some time.

What is it with Christians and a martyr complex?
Probably being built around martyrs. Not a religion designed to cope well with success...

Hey, dammit, I said it first! :p
My Easybake Oven only holds so much :p

About 13.
Your proof of this?

Speaking from Atheist knowledge, the reason why we "point it out" at "every opportunity" and so on, and so forth is because we're the only ones who DON'T try to "convert" anyone else to it. And I, for one, never tell anyone, Christian or other that their religion is wrong.. yet, every christian I've ever met thinks they can tell me my beliefs, and lack-there-of is wrong, and they will pray for me to hope I accept God. What Atheist will do that?

It's not only Christians that will tell you that your beliefs are wrong and their way is the only true way. For most religions that's a basic tenet - their way is the only true way, all others must convert.

I'm constantly amazed that the American left is always preaching the need for tolerance and understanding yet when someone wants to put up a religous symbol (specifically a Christian symbol) suddenly that tolerance and understanding goes out the window and the symbol, whatever it might be, must not be displayed.

Actually, there was nothing Christian about the holocaust, most of the nazis who beleived in the nazi beleifs were atheists. Same goes with neo-nazis...they are mostly atheists.
Untrue.

It is unclear wether or not Hitler fully believed in christianity but he used to his own means. His entire propoganda campagin was centered around the ideal aryan: white tall pale christian male.

So even if Hitler did not really believe it, his propoganda made it so that everyone who followed him believed in what he said. The nazis were christians, and the church did nothing about it. And if you actually take the time to look, there were a few catholic officials who voraciously supported nazism.

I will be back shortly with some sources.

How bout central Asian? and what vast majority of white muslims are you talking about?

I didn't say vast majority white, I said vast majority southeast asian and white. There are actually more White Muslims than there are Arab Muslims. Don't forget about all those Muslim Balkan countries.

Central Asia, too.

The estimates are that there are 1.2-1.5 billion Muslims in the world. We may have exceeded Catholics, but I'm not sure. Hard to know because places like the US don't ask religion on census forms, but there are places that keep track.

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm

Xian: "Follow the Bible or burn, filthy heathen! There should be a law...."

Atheist: "Uh, I looked through that book, and I think it's a bit logically unsound...."

Xian: "Oh, my god. I'm getting persecuted here!"[/QUOTE]

I think we have just a liiiiitle bit of a stereotype here . . .

I didn't say it bothers me. Simply, I am like a scientist. I need physical proof to know it's real. The shit my life has been dealt is real, and the help I asked for never came. Why would I want to continue believing that there's someone out there to help me, when I couldn't get any when I really needed it?

Also. With the recent destructive storms to hit the Eastern States, and kill all those people, and yet, all the people who lived "thank God" made me look and think "Hey, God created this world, he controls it, basically God killed all those people, and ruined the lif of so many others, and yet some sheep still thank him they lived." Just makes me laugh.

The day I get proof that God is real, when he comes down to me and shows himself, and tells me he's sorry he wasn't there for me when I needed help, I will appologize to everyone who I ever told I didn't believe in God.

I assume a lot of people will be waiting quite some time.
So let me see if I've got this straight.

You resent the fact that God didn't personally take a break from running the universe and come down to cater to your personal needs? And the fact that people get killed means God doesn't exist? And people who survive shouldn't be thankful?

Sounds to me as if you have a lot more issues than can be easily delt with on an Internet forum. I'm sorry you feel as though you've had such a hard time of it, but I guarantee you're not alone. If someone chooses to still believe in God despite having had a difficult life, and they would like you to have the confidence and sense of security they think their faith can provide you, why would you be resentful?

A Jewish Muslim who chronically pulls people's legs is hardly someone to be taken seriously. Heh!

Other than the once, when have I pulled people's legs around here?

Untrue.

It is unclear wether or not Hitler fully believed in christianity but he used to his own means. His entire propoganda campagin was centered around the ideal aryan: white tall pale christian male.

So even if Hitler did not really believe it, his propoganda made it so that everyone who followed him believed in what he said. The nazis were christians, and the church did nothing about it. And if you actually take the time to look, there were a few catholic officials who voraciously supported nazism.

I will be back shortly with some sources.

What does it matter if Hitler was Christian?

Maybe it's just because I'm a quircky little liberal (The kind that will disagree with everything that comes out of your mouth, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it whenever and wherever you damn well please) but I actually tend not to flame religious people. As a matter of fact on threads they seem really outnumbered I'll play devils advocate and stand up for them.
Basically the problem is that both sides of the argument only catch the extremists, the uber christian spouting scripture trying to convert the heathens, and the foul mouthed overly defensive liberal spouting flames at anyone who disagrees with them. Maybe if people looked they'd notice there's a lot of people in the middle they're skipping right over because they don't offend them?

Your proof of this?

http://www.aarweb.org/department/census.asp

It's not only Christians that will tell you that your beliefs are wrong and their way is the only true way. For most religions that's a basic tenet - their way is the only true way, all others must convert.

I'm constantly amazed that the American left is always preaching the need for tolerance and understanding yet when someone wants to put up a religous symbol (specifically a Christian symbol) suddenly that tolerance and understanding goes out the window and the symbol, whatever it might be, must not be displayed.


What exactly do you mean? Maybe I am ignorant. there's nearly 50 churches in my city, all with big huge towering crosses. Yet if a Pagan friend of mine (or me, when i chose to follow that path) tried to proclaim our religion, we were spat uppon, which is part of why I NEVER say anyone else is wrong, or another religion is wrong. I simply don't believe in it. I've been there. There's been persecution thrown at me. But trust me... if someone tried to hang a Pentacle on the outside of a building, they'd be cast down as satanic worshippers, and shit like that, because most people who have a religion don't care enough to find out about any other, and see that pagans DONT worship the devil. that's another reason why I don't like christianity (or any other religion) for the simple fact it's all small, shallow minded. IN GENERAL.

Actually, there was nothing Christian about the holocaust, most of the nazis who beleived in the nazi beleifs were atheists. Same goes with neo-nazis...they are mostly atheists.

You have any proof of this? Because it goes against everything I've ever seen.

Other than the once, when have I pulled people's legs around here?

Well there was that when we got REALLY wasted, dude.

Other than the once, when have I pulled people's legs around here?
ROFLMAO! It would be far easier to list the times you HAVEN'T pulled people's legs! :D

What does it matter if Hitler was Christian?

Because it was brought up by the original poster.

What does it matter if Hitler was Christian?

Perhaps if you would try reading the thread you might find out.

edit: Damn you GIItR! You beat me to it!

What does it matter if Hitler was Christian?

Christian vs. Atheism posts always eventually end up playing hot potato with Hitler.

What exactly do you mean? Maybe I am ignorant. there's nearly 50 churches in my city, all with big huge towering crosses. Yet if a Pagan friend of mine (or me, when i chose to follow that path) tried to proclaim our religion, we were spat uppon, which is part of why I NEVER say anyone else is wrong, or another religion is wrong. I simply don't believe in it. I've been there. There's been persecution thrown at me. But trust me... if someone tried to hang a Pentacle on the outside of a building, they'd be cast down as satanic worshippers, and shit like that, because most people who have a religion don't care enough to find out about any other, and see that pagans DONT worship the devil. that's another reason why I don't like christianity (or any other religion) for the simple fact it's all small, shallow minded. IN GENERAL.
Purely ancedotal, a friend had designed a dragon to be put on a sign for a gaming store and it wasn't allowed because it would offend the christians.

Since you'd have to take my word for it that that happened (it did, but this is the internet...) it really doesn't prove anything-but, yeah...

Oh nevermind, it seems I have posted late. Someone has already brought up the subject of Hitler. And as we are all aware all posts on the internet will eventually turn into a flame war, at which point someone will bring upthe subject of Hitler (Most commonly comparing someone to Hitler) at which point the conversation is irovocably sidetracked, the argument is over and whichever side has invoked the name of Hitler has lost.

This thread is now over.

Source #1 - Quotes from Mein Kampf that would support Christianity (http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm)

Source #2 - Christianity in the Speeches (http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
That is the base site for the above sources.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html
That site addresses some of the quotes used from nobeliefs, covers quotes that would make Hitler seem anti-christian or atheistic, then covers how he was not an atheist. All three in one go.


Whatever Hitler's personal beliefs, he used religion to justify his actions. He also called for everyone to believe as he did (propoganda obviously) but it worked well enough to ensure that the Nazis had a religion to justify themselves, namely, christianity.

ROFLMAO! It would be far easier to list the times you HAVEN'T pulled people's legs! :D

You didn't answer my question.

http://www.aarweb.org/department/census.asp
Kewl. Thanks! :)

Christian vs. Atheism posts always eventually end up playing hot potato with Hitler.

I chuckled when I constructed a literal mental image of that.

Christian vs. Atheism posts always eventually end up playing hot potato with Hitler.

But since the Christian brought up Hitler to say the Nazi's were atheists, does that mean we get to Godwin him? Not that it matters, since the Nazi's were not atheists, but protestant christians. Now that I have said that, do I have to Godwin myself?

You didn't answer my question.
Nevermind. Forget I mentioned it.

So let me see if I've got this straight.

You resent the fact that God didn't personally take a break from running the universe and come down to cater to your personal needs? And the fact that people get killed means God doesn't exist? And people who survive shouldn't be thankful?

Sounds to me as if you have a lot more issues than can be easily delt with on an Internet forum. I'm sorry you feel as though you've had such a hard time of it, but I guarantee you're not alone. If someone chooses to still believe in God despite having had a difficult life, and they would like you to have the confidence and sense of security they think their faith can provide you, why would you be resentful?

I don't expect God to fix my life any time I need help, but fucking A, dude, this man "created the universe". Isn't he the ALL POWERFULL? Why would he have to "stop running the universe" (which might I add, isn't true, unless you're so small minded you think Plante earth is all that's out there.) to help me? If he can create a whole world just by saying "Let there be light." Why would he even have to pause a breath or blink an eye to help me? It should be a subconcious action, if he cares for "His Child" so much.

As for issues to be dealt with, I didn't come here for pity, or for help. I came here because I was bored, and I wanted to see what people had to say.

Also, I am confident, and PERFECTLY secure without having to believe in a crutch to my exsistance to live life each day.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?


Hey...Finally..I have only been saying this since I left the womb 18 yrs ago :P

Its like this. Jesus said the world would hate us, persecute us and do what not. So thats what a christian can expect. and really any religion can expect it. atheist see religious people as feeble minded and weak and what not. When really they are the weak ones. But thats life i guess, eh?

Christian vs. Atheism posts always eventually end up playing hot potato with Hitler.

:p

My point is, it makes no difference if Hitler was Christian. I would like to say that, whatever he claimed to be, he was not a good Christian, but what the hell is a good Christian? Since I came on these forums that boundary has been blurred.

Regardless, Hitler is not indicative of a psychotic flaw in Christianity.

Nevermind. Forget I mentioned it.

Mentioned what?

Regardless, Hitler is not indicative of a psychotic flaw in Christianity.

Alone? No ... but I mentioned a whole laundry list of indicators. Seems Hitler is the only one anyone bothered to answer.

Oh nevermind, it seems I have posted late. Someone has already brought up the subject of Hitler. And as we are all aware all posts on the internet will eventually turn into a flame war, at which point someone will bring upthe subject of Hitler (Most commonly comparing someone to Hitler) at which point the conversation is irovocably sidetracked, the argument is over and whichever side has invoked the name of Hitler has lost.

This thread is now over.

Not true. The argument that Nazi's were atheists and not Christians was false, so therefore, upon further research, the topic cannot be Godwin'ed. He was already wrong, so we may continue the debate without the Hitler/Nazi tangent.

Purely ancedotal, a friend had designed a dragon to be put on a sign for a gaming store and it wasn't allowed because it would offend the christians.

Since you'd have to take my word for it that that happened (it did, but this is the internet...) it really doesn't prove anything-but, yeah...


I am truely sorry for your friend. No matter what your religion is, I think it should only be fair others can post their sgns of religion. But alas, we can't offend Christians, can we? Did the church ever think maybe huge ass crosses hung on the top of churches offend anyone else? Do they care?

Hey...Finally..I have only been saying this since I left the womb 18 yrs ago :P

Its like this. Jesus said the world would hate us, persecute us and do what not. So thats what a christian can expect. and really any religion can expect it. atheist see religious people as feeble minded and weak and what not. When really they are the weak ones. But thats life i guess, eh?

How are Atheists weak? Seriously, we live, eat, sleep, breathe, and make decisions without having to lean on a crutch, AKA, God. If I can stand on my own, and make my own choices, how am I weak?

Purely ancedotal, a friend had designed a dragon to be put on a sign for a gaming store and it wasn't allowed because it would offend the christians.

Since you'd have to take my word for it that that happened (it did, but this is the internet...) it really doesn't prove anything-but, yeah...

Another ancedotal example: a group of schools kids designed a "giving tree" - a metal sprial tree with paper mittens. On the mittens were written things that local charities wanted to give to needy families. The idea was for kids or families to pick a mitten and bring to the office whatever was needed - food, blankets, toys, whatever. There was *no* religious significance nor symbol of any kind on this "giving tree". A parent complained that the tree might offend someone. So the principal, being a "good" American leftist Democrat, took the tree down. No one actually was offended, no one complained, the mere hint that someone could, gasp, acutally perchance become offended, cause the tree to come down, despite NO religous symbol being attached. The complaing parent incorrectly associated the tree with Christian Christmas

Hey...Finally..I have only been saying this since I left the womb 18 yrs ago :P

Its like this. Jesus said the world would hate us, persecute us and do what not. So thats what a christian can expect. and really any religion can expect it. atheist see religious people as feeble minded and weak and what not. When really they are the weak ones. But thats life i guess, eh?

Yeah, it has absolutely nothing to do with a history of atrocities, genocide, and oppression, and nothing to do with underminding human rights and civil liberties, and nothing to do with a disregard for history, science, or logic. Nope.

Alone? No ... but I mentioned a whole laundry list of indicators. Seems Hitler is the only one anyone bothered to answer.

That's because it was the only one they thought they could successfully attack, and even that was in error.

Alone? No ... but I mentioned a whole laundry list of indicators. Seems Hitler is the only one anyone bothered to answer.

I can tell this is heading down a path that is pointless, but I'll make my point anyway:

There have always been bad Christians, and there will always be good Christians. I am of the belief that it is only good Christians who truly follow the message of Christianity. Of course, we then get the question of what is the message of Christianity? That question has no universal answer, and there are people who believe things very different to me. Personally, I believe the message of Christianity comes essentially from the Two Laws...

Another ancedotal example: a group of schools kids designed a "giving tree" - a metal sprial tree with paper mittens. On the mittens were written things that local charities wanted to give to needy families. The idea was for kids or families to pick a mitten and bring to the office whatever was needed - food, blankets, toys, whatever. There was *no* religious significance nor symbol of any kind on this "giving tree". A parent complained that the tree might offend someone. So the principal, being a "good" American leftist Democrat, took the tree down. No one actually was offended, no one complained, the mere hint that someone could, gasp, acutally perchance become offended, cause the tree to come down, despite NO religous symbol being attached. The complaing parent incorrectly associated the tree with Christian Christmas

that's really unfortunate. I feel bad for those children who wont be recieving a gift because the tree was taken down.

Listen. No one on this forum has the power to take away your right to free speech. No one on this forum has the power to take away your freedom of religion.

Disagreeing with someone in no way infringes their rights. Being a jerk is not a human rights violation. Perhaps if the original poster would refrain from making stupid arguments (thinking people picking on him infringes his rights,) and false assertions (nazis and neo-nazis are primarily atheists,) people would treat him/her with a little more respect.

I don't expect God to fix my life any time I need help, but fucking A, dude, this man "created the universe". Isn't he the ALL POWERFULL? Why would he have to "stop running the universe" (which might I add, isn't true, unless you're so small minded you think Plante earth is all that's out there.) to help me? If he can create a whole world just by saying "Let there be light." Why would he even have to pause a breath or blink an eye to help me? It should be a subconcious action, if he cares for "His Child" so much.

Also, I am confident, and PERFECTLY secure without having to believe in a crutch to my exsistance to live life each day.
Good for you. I wish you the very best of luck.

I don't have any answers for you in re your first paragraph above. Perhaps he just wanted you to be strong and thought letting you work through whatever it was would make you so. I have no way of knowing.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were looking for help or sympathy. I just wish you had been able to find some help when you needed it. Sorry I wasn't there.

I am truely sorry for your friend. No matter what your religion is, I think it should only be fair others can post their sgns of religion. But alas, we can't offend Christians, can we? Did the church ever think maybe huge ass crosses hung on the top of churches offend anyone else? Do they care?
I don't think it matters. Churches can have a cross with a animotronic Christ on it dripping blood, it's thier gig, thier house, thier rules. If you're prone to being offended by a dragon, you're not prone to going into a gaming store. If you're prone to being offended by a cross, chances are you're not prone to going to a christian church. It's zero sum in my book.

Listen. No one on this forum has the power to take away your right to free speech. No one on this forum has the power to take away your freedom of religion.

Disagreeing with someone in no way infringes their rights. Being a jerk is not a human rights violation. Perhaps if the original poster would refrain from making stupid arguments (thinking people picking on him infringes his rights,) and false assertions (nazis and neo-nazis are primarily atheists,) people would treat him/her with a little more respect.
We tried that already. Now we've moved on to the forum version of trying to hit the ball collecter at a driving range, we're just taking the easy target...

<snip>Perhaps if the original poster would refrain from making stupid arguments (thinking people picking on him infringes his rights,) and false assertions (nazis and neo-nazis are primarily atheists,) people would treat him/her with a little more respect.

Can I make a suggestion? Why dont we just respect each other in spite of what we believe, rather that respecting people for what they believe. That way both sides can stop complaining about persecution and we can get back to these fascinating theological and philisophical debates...

Good for you. I wish you the very best of luck.

I don't have any answers for you in re your first paragraph above. Perhaps he just wanted you to be strong and thought letting you work through whatever it was would make you so. I have no way of knowing.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were looking for help or sympathy. I just wish you had been able to find some help when you needed it. Sorry I wasn't there.

Well thank you. Despite what I have said, or what may have sounded like I said, I do appreciate anyone who cares about me in any way.

I did make it through my trials, whether or not God had anything to do with it, is unknown to anyone. but I made it though.

Some atheists are pretty respectful. However, many on this forum preach about being respectful to people's beliefs and keeping an open mind, but when a topic on Christianity pops up, they have no problems bashing. As the topic starter mentioned, people are lauded for making fun of Christianity.

Then they defend themselves by saying "well, Christianity is BS" or some other way of saying that they don't agree with its beliefs.

Here's a tip. Being respectful to people of all beliefs includes respecting people who believe differently from you.

But since the Christian brought up Hitler to say the Nazi's were atheists, does that mean we get to Godwin him? Not that it matters, since the Nazi's were not atheists, but protestant christians. Now that I have said that, do I have to Godwin myself?


As I ahve said, it is a law of the internet that Hitler's name will eventually be brought up, at this point the thread is over. The side that invoked Hitler has lost. This thread is over.

The Winner Athiests.

I don't think it matters. Churches can have a cross with a animotronic Christ on it dripping blood, it's thier gig, thier house, thier rules. If you're prone to being offended by a dragon, you're not prone to going into a gaming store. If you're prone to being offended by a cross, chances are you're not prone to going to a christian church. It's zero sum in my book.


that's a really good point, haha!

Yeah, it has absolutely nothing to do with a history of atrocities, genocide, and oppression, and nothing to do with underminding human rights and civil liberties, and nothing to do with a disregard for history, science, or logic. Nope.
So you persecute every religion on the planet? 'Cause every religion has done that at some time in the past.

Originally Posted by Subins
I don't expect God to fix my life any time I need help, but fucking A, dude, this man "created the universe". Isn't he the ALL POWERFULL? Why would he have to "stop running the universe" (which might I add, isn't true, unless you're so small minded you think Plante earth is all that's out there.) to help me? If he can create a whole world just by saying "Let there be light." Why would he even have to pause a breath or blink an eye to help me? It should be a subconcious action, if he cares for "His Child" so much.

A Christian friend of mine once asked me, how small is God? meaning that, in his view, since God is all powerful beyond comprehension that it *IS* possible that God is interested in the day to day activities of people.
I didn't know how to answer him,as I have equal trouble imagining an all powerful hands off God and an all powerful hands on God.

Some atheists are pretty respectful. However, many on this forum preach about being respectful to people's beliefs and keeping an open mind, but when a topic on Christianity pops up, they have no problems bashing. As the topic starter mentioned, people are lauded for making fun of Christianity.

Then they defend themselves by saying "well, Christianity is BS" or some other way of saying that they don't agree with its beliefs.

Here's a tip. Being respectful to people of all beliefs includes respecting people who believe differently from you.

Is that directed at me?

I'm actually not Christian, I was just wondering due to the immature and totally rude attitude I have seen from lefties towards Christians....they assume Christians are automatically a troll.
I think they are just mad becuase we go agains their belief. And I dont wanna look like a hypocrit so I wont debate it.

I can tell this is heading down a path that is pointless, but I'll make my point anyway:

There have always been bad Christians, and there will always be good Christians. I am of the belief that it is only good Christians who truly follow the message of Christianity. Of course, we then get the question of what is the message of Christianity? That question has no universal answer, and there are people who believe things very different to me. Personally, I believe the message of Christianity comes essentially from the Two Laws...

1. Love the Father with all your heart, mind, and soul
2. Love thy neighbor.

everything is else is just details?

1. Love the Father with all your heart, mind, and soul
2. Love thy neighbor.

everything is else is just details?

"Just details" is a bit of an exageration, but I'm one of those Christians that believe that that's all it essentially comes down to.

Originally Posted by Subins
I don't expect God to fix my life any time I need help, but fucking A, dude, this man "created the universe". Isn't he the ALL POWERFULL? Why would he have to "stop running the universe" (which might I add, isn't true, unless you're so small minded you think Plante earth is all that's out there.) to help me? If he can create a whole world just by saying "Let there be light." Why would he even have to pause a breath or blink an eye to help me? It should be a subconcious action, if he cares for "His Child" so much.

A Christian friend of mine once asked me, how small is God? meaning that, in his view, since God is all powerful beyond comprehension that it *IS* possible that God is interested in the day to day activities of people.
I didn't know how to answer him,as I have equal trouble imagining an all powerful hands off God and an all powerful hands on God.


I think I understand what you mean...

"God is in every living organism, no matter how small, and he's always there"

Pretty much^ Right?

How do you interrupt someone in the middle of a post?

Anyway, here's some insight into why Christians tend to be bitchslapped:

1] "The reason for the season!" I can think of at least 5 holidays, including Hanukkah, that have been celebrated at this time of the year longer than Christmas and, in some cases, since long before Jesus was born. By proclaiming your man-god is the only reason any celebration happens at this time of year, you alienate the rest of us. Not a good way to win friends and influence people. I'm sure you personally are not like this, but if you just walk outside and look around or watch 5 minutes of television, you'll see that this attitude predominates Christianity.

2] "There is no way to the Father but through me." That self-righteous drivel is one of the worst things going against you. In that one sentence, that one ideaology, your people have said "Jesus or Hell, take your pick" to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, and the assorted other 2/3rds of the world. It is the inescapable truth of being Christian that you must believe that anyone who has not turned to Jesus is hellbound. If you don't believe that, then you must therefore not recognize the divinity of Jesus and, thus, aren't actually Christian. Since you believe that, which means you believe I personally am doomed to Hell and am hated by God, then I reserve the right to bitchslap you from time to time.

3] Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Jim Jones, the Inquisitions, the destruction of the original peoples of America, the constant push to include the Gospel in the Constitution, the witch trials, the spreading of lies and slander against various Pagan peoples of Europe to spread your version of the truth, the demonization of the Jewish people, the Holocaust (which many Christians turned a blind eye to), the Aryan Nation, the enslavement of Africans, the demonization of Muslims, the KKK, Christian Identity, neo-Nazism, and the God Warrior are all things we have to look past. It's a lot to look past.

4] Constantly demanding Muslims speak out against Osama bin Laden, but merely shrugging and blowing it off if anyone mentions anything in #3.

I would go on, but I think that's enough.

Now come down off the cross, somebody needs the wood.

Damn you Jesus...

I used to practice Catholicism quite devoutly, but now I am apathetic at best. I believe in (a) God, because nothing else, to me, can justify why we are here (but I don't buy into the Bible) and how life originated. I believe in intelligent design (and let's not debate the merits/faults of that credo in this thread) because evolution, to me, contains some scientific merit but also contains many 'gaps' and speculative theory. I believe that Jesus' message is universally good, and that is "Love thy neighbor." However, I feel it is arrogant and even hypocritical to believe that only belief in him, in part God, (a loving God according to Catholicism) will grant you salvation. I heartily guffaw when I muse that a truly loving God wouldn't want to save 'unbelievers,' despite their ignorance. I do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope nor most Catholic dogma, essentially I have renounced the Church. I also cannot deny the many acts of ineptitude, ignorance, and iniquity that have been committed indiviudally or by Catholics and also Christians as one entity.

Sorry for that rant, and for the record I am a conservative/libertarian mutt. Though I still call myself a believer (in the non-traditional sense; I'm more of a Deist ultimately), I agree with what Keruvalia has said. Many of my fellow 'bretheren' are too ignorant and too dependent on their own credo, in my view, to even recognize the beliefs of others. Thus, they often grossly err when dealing with atheists and the like.

I think I understand what you mean...

"God is in every living organism, no matter how small, and he's always there"

Pretty much^ Right?

Yeppers

Some atheists are pretty respectful. However, many on this forum preach about being respectful to people's beliefs and keeping an open mind, but when a topic on Christianity pops up, they have no problems bashing. As the topic starter mentioned, people are lauded for making fun of Christianity.

Then they defend themselves by saying "well, Christianity is BS" or some other way of saying that they don't agree with its beliefs.

Here's a tip. Being respectful to people of all beliefs includes respecting people who believe differently from you.

You have to admit, some of the bashing is warranted. When the difference between the Big Bang theory, the theory of abiogenesis, and the theory of Evolution is pointed out over and over and over again, and certain people still lump them together, then it's legitimate to call that particular someone an asshat.

There are atheistic trolls and ignoramuses as well. Saying someone's faith is stupid is just wrong.

Saying someone is stupid for saying something stupid is perfectly justified though.

The difference between atheists and Christians as far as trolling goes is how the information is presented. An atheist will tell you "this is what I believe..." and you can accept it or reject it. Christians will tell you "this is what you have to believe..." and you are denied the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I was just thinking about truth and lies in another thread and I would put Christianity as worse than a lie: it is a rumor. Many times, when you talk to Christians, they will refuse to be held accountable for what they are saying and instead point you to a book, which can't be held accountable for anything. If one holds the Bible to be true, then one should defend it as their own belief. When you get down to it, what is the difference between preaching the gospel and spreading rumors if one does not accept accountability for either one?

Yeppers

Well, the same thing is basically like that for Wiccans, only, they have seperate gods and goddesses for each and every thing. Yet.. some also incorporate the christian god as well.. which.. seems impossible to me, if he's supposedly in everything as well.

Speaking from Atheist knowledge, the reason why we "point it out" at "every opportunity" and so on, and so forth is because we're the only ones who DON'T try to "convert" anyone else to it. And I, for one, never tell anyone, Christian or other that their religion is wrong.. yet, every christian I've ever met thinks they can tell me my beliefs, and lack-there-of is wrong, and they will pray for me to hope I accept God. What Atheist will do that?

Just my opinion. I'd rather be a troll than sheep.. so.. meh.

You have reached a logical paradox here.
By definition, anyone making any argument is in some way trying to "convert" others to their opinion.

The lack of a way is inherently a way.

-- Nostgor Montare Piad: Honored Representative of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic.
(Signed here because I can't seem to get my signature working. Maybe it's just me.)

The difference between atheists and Christians as far as trolling goes is how the information is presented. An atheist will tell you "this is what I believe..." and you can accept it or reject it. Christians will tell you "this is what you have to believe..." and you are denied the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I think that may be why I tend to argue as much with my fellow Christians than I do with Atheists...

"Just details" is a bit of an exageration, but I'm one of those Christians that believe that that's all it essentially comes down to.

Personally I belive that it doesn't matter what you beliefve as long as you do good, lead a good life, do good to others, do good works then the end result will be a good afterlife. if that means you need to be Muslim, Jewish, or Christian do get there so be it . Sadly this belief system makes me incompatible with the Christians but hey it's my life, we'll see who's right at the end.

Personally I belive that it doesn't matter what you beliefve as long as you do good, lead a good life, do good to others, do good works then the end result will be a good afterlife. if that means you need to be Muslim, Jewish, or Christian do get there so be it . Sadly this belief system makes me incompatible with the Christians but hey it's my life, we'll see who's right at the end.

Well I'm Christian, and that's pretty close to what I believe, and I am not the only one...

You have reached a logical paradox here.
By definition, anyone making any argument is in some way trying to "convert" others to their opinion.

The lack of a way is inherently a way.

-- Nostgor Montare Piad: Honored Representative of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic.
(Signed here because I can't seem to get my signature working. Maybe it's just me.)


But you see, I find my "lack of way" a "way. It's My way, by my choice. And in me speaking out and saying what I believe in is in NO WAY trying to "convert" anyone. I don't give a shit what YOU believe, or anyone else, but if there's a chance to debate about it, why not? Personally, I think if someone thinks they are right, and totally believes in what they believe in, and live by those rules, GOOD FOR THEM! It's what I do! But they may not agree with the same beliefs I believe in.

It's that simple. Like I said, I never tell anyone they are wrong, and I am right. Hence, I never try to "convert" people. That'd be like saying wearing a cross on your necklace, or a pentacle on your neclace is like trying to "convert" someone. I am simply stating what I am, and why.

So you persecute every religion on the planet? 'Cause every religion has done that at some time in the past.

Persecute? No. But equally criticize them all, yes. But you see, the fact that Christianity is a bit more prevalent in the U.S. might be part of the reason that it's singled out more than others (especially due to its involvement in politics).
I mean, I haven't had many Hindus knocking on my door in the earily hours of the morning to tell me to not eat meat so that I might not get reincarnated as an earthworm.
If an influx of Fundamental Islamist so happened to join nation-states and preach on the board, rest assured we'd set our sites on them too.

Im a leftist and a Christian. So quit generalizing.

I'm a Christian social conservative and a fiscal liberal. So generalizations are innapropriate.

As this thread is concearned, trolls are only those that attack Christians. So there! Oh, sorry for generalizing.

Well I'm Christian, and that's pretty close to what I believe, and I am not the only one...

Yes, indeed! That is preety much what we Christians are all about.

There have always been bad Christians, and there will always be good Christians. I am of the belief that it is only good Christians who truly follow the message of Christianity.

First, Christianity will not survive for very long in the scope of things. Yeah, it's name may continue, but it is barely what it was 100 years ago, or even further if we dared to look. Many of the holidays, symbols and ideals are "borrowed" from other popular religions to allow for an easier adoption of different groups of people. For example, since Christmas is comming, we all should know that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, nor was there a christmas tree of any mention (though thanks to German traditions we have one) and also the fat santa is not exactly a main character of the bible. To be honest he is as close a commercial can come to becomming a demi-god.
Secondly, what makes you think that there are bad and good christians, and if there are, you're not one of them. Not trying to demonize you particularly, but as the common saying go, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, is it just me or does the christian ideal of surviving slings and arrows makes you more devout, somewhat.. ironic. Not only is it martydom, but also it is a good way of seem empathic while also ignoring the conflict.

Before I am labled, yes I am atheist. There, have fun with that, but it is my belief that if there is a god, or some sort of creator, then he would not be super-natural. If you make rules, you can't break them, or the system will fall apart. Besides, what difference does it make if he is there or not, he will guide you or not, why should he show preference for someone who is kissing his feet or not. It would seem to me that a god would probably be above that.

Lastly (sorry, I am a bit lengthy sometimes) and on topic, Christians are challenged and atheists are challenged, and muslims are challanged, pagans, satanists, jews and any other ideal. By putting your self out there and trying to make a difference you have to expect others are too and generally you'll here more disagreements than affirmations, because the affirmitive is stated, it is now open for a rebuttal.
Enjoy

You have reached a logical paradox here.
By definition, anyone making any argument is in some way trying to "convert" others to their opinion.

The lack of a way is inherently a way.

-- Nostgor Montare Piad: Honored Representative of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic.
(Signed here because I can't seem to get my signature working. Maybe it's just me.)

Argument: a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal

Nothing about converting, you simply put forth your beliefs and so does the other person, if you are expecting to convert them it will most likely be a frustrating discussion for you as that is not easy especially in theological discussion. I go into a discussion expecting only to be heard and considered.

Can I make a suggestion? Why dont we just respect each other in spite of what we believe, rather that respecting people for what they believe. That way both sides can stop complaining about persecution and we can get back to these fascinating theological and philisophical debates...

What a genius.
I like this man.

But you see, I find my "lack of way" a "way.
There's gotta be some sort of recognition for bringing Bruce Lee into a "why do people pick on christians...." Quality.

First, Christianity will not survive for very long in the scope of things. Yeah, it's name may continue, but it is barely what it was 100 years ago, or even further if we dared to look. Many of the holidays, symbols and ideals are "borrowed" from other popular religions to allow for an easier adoption of different groups of people. For example, since Christmas is comming, we all should know that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, nor was there a christmas tree of any mention (though thanks to German traditions we have one) and also the fat santa is not exactly a main character of the bible. To be honest he is as close a commercial can come to becomming a demi-god.
Secondly, what makes you think that there are bad and good christians, and if there are, you're not one of them. Not trying to demonize you particularly, but as the common saying go, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, is it just me or does the christian ideal of surviving slings and arrows makes you more devout, somewhat.. ironic. Not only is it martydom, but also it is a good way of seem empathic while also ignoring the conflict.

Before I am labled, yes I am atheist. There, have fun with that, but it is my belief that if there is a god, or some sort of creator, then he would not be super-natural. If you make rules, you can't break them, or the system will fall apart. Besides, what difference does it make if he is there or not, he will guide you or not, why should he show preference for someone who is kissing his feet or not. It would seem to me that a god would probably be above that.

Lastly (sorry, I am a bit lengthy sometimes) and on topic, Christians are challenged and atheists are challenged, and muslims are challanged, pagans, satanists, jews and any other ideal. By putting your self out there and trying to make a difference you have to expect others are too and generally you'll here more disagreements than affirmations, because the affirmitive is stated, it is now open for a rebuttal.
Enjoy

Damn, you're good.

Yeah.. i like how christians take a pagan, persecute them, kill them, then take their holiday, rename it, and it's suddenly christian. :)

First, Christianity will not survive for very long in the scope of things. Yeah, it's name may continue, but it is barely what it was 100 years ago, or even further if we dared to look. Many of the holidays, symbols and ideals are "borrowed" from other popular religions to allow for an easier adoption of different groups of people. For example, since Christmas is comming, we all should know that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, nor was there a christmas tree of any mention (though thanks to German traditions we have one) and also the fat santa is not exactly a main character of the bible. To be honest he is as close a commercial can come to becomming a demi-god.
Secondly, what makes you think that there are bad and good christians, and if there are, you're not one of them. Not trying to demonize you particularly, but as the common saying go, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, is it just me or does the christian ideal of surviving slings and arrows makes you more devout, somewhat.. ironic. Not only is it martydom, but also it is a good way of seem empathic while also ignoring the conflict.

Before I am labled, yes I am atheist. There, have fun with that, but it is my belief that if there is a god, or some sort of creator, then he would not be super-natural. If you make rules, you can't break them, or the system will fall apart. Besides, what difference does it make if he is there or not, he will guide you or not, why should he show preference for someone who is kissing his feet or not. It would seem to me that a god would probably be above that.

Lastly (sorry, I am a bit lengthy sometimes) and on topic, Christians are challenged and atheists are challenged, and muslims are challanged, pagans, satanists, jews and any other ideal. By putting your self out there and trying to make a difference you have to expect others are too and generally you'll here more disagreements than affirmations, because the affirmitive is stated, it is now open for a rebuttal.
Enjoy

I'm sorry, but I fail to see your point here...

Some atheists are pretty respectful. However, many on this forum preach about being respectful to people's beliefs and keeping an open mind, but when a topic on Christianity pops up, they have no problems bashing. As the topic starter mentioned, people are lauded for making fun of Christianity.

Then they defend themselves by saying "well, Christianity is BS" or some other way of saying that they don't agree with its beliefs.

Here's a tip. Being respectful to people of all beliefs includes respecting people who believe differently from you.


Amen!

I'm a Christian social conservative and a fiscal liberal. So generalizations are innapropriate.

As this thread is concearned, trolls are only those that attack Christians. So there! Oh, sorry for generalizing.

Sorry to nitpick, but "left" refers to economic bent and "liberal" refers to social inclination.

Therefore you are socially conservative and economically left.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

Welcome to the good ol' world of religious debate. Atheism has been the leading sect localy, and the more militant natives will jump down your throat happily (I've done my own share of throat-jumping I suppose). As to atheists being "liberal", not really. In reality, many atheists are liberals only by dint of being in the minority, and therefore feeling the need to give themselves rights. Were atheism the majority religion, I've no doubt that we Atheists would be the fundamentalist conservatives. Tribal mindsets and all that.

Yes, we have a particularly disgusting strain of militant atheist (mutated to most medicines), but don't judge us by them and we won't juidge you by Pat Robertson...

I'm becoming a moderate! Quick, someone shoot me!

But you see, I find my "lack of way" a "way. It's My way, by my choice. And in me speaking out and saying what I believe in is in NO WAY trying to "convert" anyone. I don't give a shit what YOU believe, or anyone else, but if there's a chance to debate about it, why not? Personally, I think if someone thinks they are right, and totally believes in what they believe in, and live by those rules, GOOD FOR THEM! It's what I do! But they may not agree with the same beliefs I believe in.

It's that simple. Like I said, I never tell anyone they are wrong, and I am right. Hence, I never try to "convert" people. That'd be like saying wearing a cross on your necklace, or a pentacle on your neclace is like trying to "convert" someone. I am simply stating what I am, and why.

Fair enough.

You know what really grinds my gears? You America! F*ck you! (sorry Family Guy rules)

It is not America that sucks and should go F*ck itself ... but Americans. The country in theory when founded was and is a great idea ... the problem is that Americans don't give a sh!t about their government ... they'd rather worry about whether Nick and Jessica are breaking up ... Ask ten people what they think about most of the charges being dropped against Tom Delay (You should know who this is) ... the most common response you'll get is ... Who?

piece!

signed

B - The Leader Guy of Ubetureffinass

PS ... Good god is Jessica Simpson hot.

Sorry to nitpick, but "left" refers to economic bent and "liberal" refers to social inclination.

Therefore you are socially conservative and economically left.
Not in the US, so it's probably a vernacular difference.

Fair enough.

Thank You

It is not America that sucks and should go F*ck itself ... but Americans. The country in theory when founded was and is a great idea ... the problem is that Americans don't give a sh!t about their government ... they'd rather worry about whether Nick and Jessica are breaking up ... Ask ten people what they think about most of the charges being dropped against Tom Delay (You should know who this is) ... the most common response you'll get is ... Who?

piece!

signed

B - The Leader Guy of Ubetureffinass

PS ... Good god is Jessica Simpson hot.

Actually, one out of the three charges against DeLay was dropped. So your "most" claim is incorrect. And I'm one of those "ignorant Americans."

Just a thought-yes we believe that everyone else is going to hell...as narrow minded, foolish, and harsh as that seems it is what we believe because it's what the Bible tells us. AND to us that makes sense, because God is so good, pure and amazing that He could not have us in His presence with our sin, so He sent His son to die for us and give us salvation to wash us of our sins. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but to most Christian it amazes us; He didn't have to save us, He wanted to because He loves us. Most of us only preach and try to convert others because ultimately we don't want them to go to hell...it scares us to think anyone has to-and we'd like to see them accept what we already have, because it is an amazing part of our lives and something we want to share. I'm truly sorry if that offends some and I personally try to not preach to others, as well as try to see their side and why they belief what they do-just thought I'd try to explain why we "preach", for many of us it's not meant to be rude, harsh, or even condemning, only truth.

Sorry to nitpick, but "left" refers to economic bent and "liberal" refers to social inclination.

Therefore you are socially conservative and economically left.


That's your opinion, not mine. It seems that you understood, either way. We all nitpick and have pet-peeves, and abbide by only the laws, rules and regulations that we agree with, otherwise, we make them up as we go along. Good night.... or would that be day?

Therefore you are socially conservative and economically left.


Which = populist.

Go cry in your beer some more, champ.
I'm laughing 'cause I can't get to sleep.

Just a thought-yes we believe that everyone else is going to hell...as narrow minded, foolish, and harsh as that seems it is what we believe because it's what the Bible tells us. AND to us that makes sense, because God is so good, pure and amazing that He could not have us in His presence with our sin, so He sent His son to die for us and give us salvation to wash us of our sins. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but to most Christian it amazes us; He didn't have to save us, He wanted to because He loves us. Most of us only preach and try to convert others because ultimately we don't want them to go to hell...it scares us to think anyone has to-and we'd like to see them accept what we already have, because it is an amazing part of our lives and something we want to share. I'm truly sorry if that offends some and I personally try to not preach to others, as well as try to see their side and why they belief what they do-just thought I'd try to explain why we "preach", for many of us it's not meant to be rude, harsh, or even condemning, only truth.

I like how you don't want to "preach" and how you want us all to be safe in heaven... but if Jesus died for our sins, then we are ALL cleared of them, no matter what, right? Since Catholics are the only ones who seem to not believe that, since they have confessionals, how could a "non-believer" go to hell, if he is already "saved" and "cleared of sins"?

just a thought^

I like how you don't want to "preach" and how you want us all to be safe in heaven... but if Jesus died for our sins, then we are ALL cleared of them, no matter what, right? Since Catholics are the only ones who seem to not believe that, since they have confessionals, how could a "non-believer" go to hell, if he is already "saved" and "cleared of sins"?

just a thought^

Oh, because they forgot to mention that you also have to subscribe to their particular set of beliefs, or that forgiveness is not enough and you still burn in hell.

edit: spelling

Oh, because they forgot to mention that you also have to subscribe to their particular set of beliefs, of that forgiveness is not enough and you still burn in hell.

... Oh. :( Damn

Oh, because they forgot to mention that you also have to subscribe to their particular set of beliefs, or that forgiveness is not enough and you still burn in hell.

edit: spelling


I knew what you meant... :P

Argument: a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal

Nothing about converting, you simply put forth your beliefs and so does the other person, if you are expecting to convert them it will most likely be a frustrating discussion for you as that is not easy especially in theological discussion. I go into a discussion expecting only to be heard and considered.

My statment was based on a concept that states that all communication is a form of attempted conversion (conversion being defined as "an act of transformation", so either from the acceptance from one idea to another, ignorant to enlightened, asleep to awake, etc.).
However, if I really wanted to "convert" you on this, I'd be getting into a paradox, which is irrelevant and probably detracting. And I'd probably end up proving myself wrong before I prove myself right. yay for paradoxes. :D
It may have been better for me not to have commented at all...
So you're right about frustrating.
And your response has... persuaded... me to reconsider this paradox to an extent.
And this is where I want to leave that this string, before I start confusing myself...

But... now that you've brought up that definition, I guess I'll try to link this back to the base topic of this forum...
See my later post.

I like how you don't want to "preach" and how you want us all to be safe in heaven... but if Jesus died for our sins, then we are ALL cleared of them, no matter what, right? Since Catholics are the only ones who seem to not believe that, since they have confessionals, how could a "non-believer" go to hell, if he is already "saved" and "cleared of sins"?

just a thought^

That's a good thought.

Quick definition of terms:
sin (Christian Theological definition): anything contrary to the will of God.
I forget the Biblical quote, but "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In short, Man was once a perfect creation, but took his own way and blew it.

According to Christian theology, yes, Jesus died for the sins of all, meaning that all people are, in theory, forgiven. The catch is, most people don't want to be forgiven. Christian theology states that man does not naturally seek God or his forgiveness. Man wants to live life on his own, and would rather not use God (and forgiveness) as a crutch (to coin a reply used earlier in this forum). To be "saved" is to return to God and accept forgiveness for turning away from His will (i.e. sinning). One cannot be saved unless one asks for and accepts the already-ensured forgiveness and returns to the will of God. There are a few simple specified procedural parameters, but those are currently irrelevant to this discussion.
Those who do not accept forgiveness will be condemned because, following this train of thought, they want to be.
According to the Bible, this forgiveness is absolute (despite what certain sects may preach), so all sins (past, present, and future) are covered. Also according to the Bible, all Christians WILL sin again. and again. and again. ad infinitam. nobody is perfect, and God understands that. the point of confession is admitting when you've messed up.
Catholic confession is a bit of an extreme on this idea. The Bible states that we should confess our sins to others. There is a bit of controversey as to the intents, extent, and application. And, as in many other issues, the Catholic Church decided to resolve the issue by making a doctrine out of it, hence confessionals.

So, I guess, to answer your thought more abruptly... we are all cleared, IF... we so choose to be and act upon that choice. See above for explaination.

We of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic believe the following:
1. Forums are for arguments.
2. An argument is the presentation of ideas, most times conflicting, to others for the purpose of explaination, examination, reproof, and/or acceptance by others.
3. Half of arguing is therefore listening.
4. Trolling is not arguing.

Why are Christian ideas supposedly shunned or immediately dismissed as trolling?
Because there are certain loud-mouthed individuals who call themselves Christian who would rather stir up controversy and then present their ideas (even facts are ideas) without listening... shouting down the competition, in other words.

These particular loud-mouthed, highly "loyal" "christians" constantly bombard the forums with why they are right without listening to any reason as to why they may be wrong. Instead of listening, these people get louder.
Eventually, those in disagreement have to get louder to simply drown out the noice.
And eventually, Christian ideas get associated with these trolls, and people don't want to hear it.

Forums are for intellectual discussion. Not shouting arenas.

It's a shame that a cause my people feels noble is represented so wrongly.

-- Nostgor Montare Piad of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic.

That's a good thought.

Quick definition of terms:
sin (Christian Theological definition): anything contrary to the will of God.
I forget the Biblical quote, but "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In short, Man was once a perfect creation, but took his own way and blew it.

According to Christian theology, yes, Jesus died for the sins of all, meaning that all people are, in theory, forgiven. The catch is, most people don't want to be forgiven. Christian theology states that man does not naturally seek God or his forgiveness. Man wants to live life on his own, and would rather not use God (and forgiveness) as a crutch (to coin a reply used earlier in this forum). To be "saved" is to return to God and accept forgiveness for turning away from His will (i.e. sinning). One cannot be saved unless one asks for and accepts the already-ensured forgiveness and returns to the will of God. There are a few simple specified procedural parameters, but those are currently irrelevant to this discussion.
Those who do not accept forgiveness will be condemned because, following this train of thought, they want to be.
According to the Bible, this forgiveness is absolute (despite what certain sects may preach), so all sins (past, present, and future) are covered. Also according to the Bible, all Christians WILL sin again. and again. and again. ad infinitam. nobody is perfect, and God understands that. the point of confession is admitting when you've messed up.
Catholic confession is a bit of an extreme on this idea. The Bible states that we should confess our sins to others. There is a bit of controversey as to the intents, extent, and application. And, as in many other issues, the Catholic Church decided to resolve the issue by making a doctrine out of it, hence confessionals.

So, I guess, to answer your thought more abruptly... we are all cleared, IF... we so choose to be and act upon that choice. See above for explaination.

The problem i have with that is this. If god is an all powerful being why would he care if man follows his will, turn to him for forgivness or worship him. Why would he condem them to hell for not believing in him when there is no proof, for person who relies on logic alone, to believe in him. Now don't get me wrong im not saying people who believe in god are illogical, but their belief isn't based on logic its based on faith, and thats fine. Not all people can rely on faith and if god does exist he made them that way, in essence, condeming them damnation. Seems kind of cruel...

After reading the first 6 pages of responses and than skipping the rest I have a few things to say.

As an atheist I'm very confident that I am right and that all of you who don't believe the same way I do are wrong. Although in my quest to be even more right if someone is willing to critises my ideas constructivly I am willing to listen.

I think the Christian religion is delusional but that isn't all. I feel the same way about most religions.

I am fully aware that atheists can be every bit as prudish, superstitous, intolerant, and ignorant as some of the worst Christians, You actually can have an athiest Pat Robertson.

After discovering the Jesus prophesies and than later other things I losed my faith. It was like finding the trap door in magicians hat where the rabbits where hidden. I doubt any one can bring me back to a belief in Christianity.

As to trolling. I pass my judgements on actions, things, and beliefs but not people. After all I was ones a Christian. If I was to say Christians are stupid I'd be implicating myself. I don't believe there is anything that makes any one less than human. I simply don't make judgements on others. Even murder does not cuase me to judge becuase who is to say that the things that culminated into one person commiting murder wouldn't have the same results in another person. Think of the many Natzi's who's group mentality was largley responsable for what they did. I just believe people are mostly creations of thier invirament.

When it comes to people who still believe in Christianity I am pretty sure they have never actually given doubt a chance.

I am also pretty sure it is the more rotten Christians that get flamed.

My spelling is right yours is wrong ;)

[QUOTE=Dark Shadowy Nexus]
After discovering the Jesus prophesies and than later other things I losed my faith. It was like finding the trap door in magicians hat where the rabbits where hidden. I doubt any one can bring me back to a belief in Christianity.

I'm curious... what exactly made you lose your Christian faith?

I found out that Old Testament prophicies people claim foretold the comeing of Jesus are not real. They ( the Old Testament Prophicies ) are either taken out of context, simple statements about about the things going on the time those passages are written ( such as all of the so called Psalm prophicies ), misquoted, or other things that make them untrue prophicies of Jesus. There isn't a single legitament one that I know of. Not even one. Than my path into disbelief continued from there.

Now I'm at a point where the Bible represents such a big fish story I just want to see the fish before I believe it. An example of the size of the big fish story the Bible tells is as if a fisherman told you he cuaght fish with eyes as big around as the sun in this solor system on nylon wire with width of a human hair. The Bible tells one incredable story. It's going to need equally incredable evidence to back it all up.

The problem i have with that is this. If god is an all powerful being why would he care if man follows his will, turn to him for forgivness or worship him. Why would he condem them to hell for not believing in him when there is no proof, for person who relies on logic alone, to believe in him. Now don't get me wrong im not saying people who believe in god are illogical, but their belief isn't based on logic its based on faith, and thats fine. Not all people can rely on faith and if god does exist he made them that way, in essence, condeming them damnation. Seems kind of cruel...

I think I can respond to your problem in two parts.

First, also according to Christian theology, mankind was created to commune with God. Man went off and violated God's will.
My personal understanding of this theology is not completely clear, but I believe that it has to do with God's nature... he is a God of justice, and anything violating his will (which is the standard by which all are judged), must be punished, hence condemnation to hell. It doesn't mean that He's not all-powerful, it just means that He maintains His rules. God didn't like the idea that man was going to have to die, but someone had to be punished in order for justice to be carried out, hence Jesus, hence forgiveness, yada, yada.

second,
Consider a calculator. How much can one logically trust a calculator?
As far as one's command of mathematics. We assume that the calculator is accurate, as long as it remains constant with what we know of math. However, the average graphing calculator has far more mathematical capability than the average human. Can one logically conclude that the calculator is accurate on these functions? Yes and no.
Consider this string of Boolean logic:
IF "all things constant" AND "all things equal" AND "previous experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE, THEN "future experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE
If past experience proves something reliable, man generally assumes it to remain reliable. The proof here is experience juxtaposed to knowledge.
The human logically assumes that the calculator has been programmed correctly in all things.
One can apply this same concept to religion.
Christian theology states that the Bible claims to be the only direct Word of God. If one juxtaposes knowledge to its experience and finds it accurate (in my experience and to my knowledge, it is accurate historically, traditionally, mythologically, socially, sociologically, prophetically, philosophically, and is even correct in the few areas where it touches on the hard sciences), one can logically conclude that it is accurate about God. There is the direct proof.
My belief stands on logic which supports the past.

You mentioned faith. What is faith but simply a form of trust?
Trust is the assurance that what has been promised will happen, as evidenced by prior experience.
Trust is the logical response to reliability.
I find that I have faith in that calculator to be accurate. I have faith in my computer to convey characters accurately (though there are times when it is not very good at it). I have faith in my girlfriend to be honest and true to our relationship.
I find that it takes more "faith" to believe in God than it does to trust the fossil record: God gave an easily accessible source of proof, and we're still looking for the fossils.

My belief in God comes from logical conclusions, historical and scientific. My faith in God is the logical response to the accuracy of his Word.

There is no logical way to not get God's message, except to actively avoid it.
C.S. Lewis once said that "a young man must be careful what he reads if he is to remain an atheist."
God isn't being cruel. Man simply wants to stand alone.

I think I can respond to your problem in two parts.

First, also according to Christian theology, mankind was created to commune with God. Man went off and violated God's will.
My personal understanding of this theology is not completely clear, but I believe that it has to do with God's nature... he is a God of justice, and anything violating his will (which is the standard by which all are judged), must be punished, hence condemnation to hell. It doesn't mean that He's not all-powerful, it just means that He maintains His rules. God didn't like the idea that man was going to have to die, but someone had to be punished in order for justice to be carried out, hence Jesus, hence forgiveness, yada, yada.

second,
Consider a calculator. How much can one logically trust a calculator?
As far as one's command of mathematics. We assume that the calculator is accurate, as long as it remains constant with what we know of math. However, the average graphing calculator has far more mathematical capability than the average human. Can one logically conclude that the calculator is accurate on these functions? Yes and no.
Consider this string of Boolean logic:
IF "all things constant" AND "all things equal" AND "previous experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE, THEN "future experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE
If past experience proves something reliable, man generally assumes it to remain reliable. The proof here is experience juxtaposed to knowledge.
The human logically assumes that the calculator has been programmed correctly in all things.
One can apply this same concept to religion.
Christian theology states that the Bible claims to be the only direct Word of God. If one juxtaposes knowledge to its experience and finds it accurate (in my experience and to my knowledge, it is accurate historically, traditionally, mythologically, socially, sociologically, prophetically, philosophically, and is even correct in the few areas where it touches on the hard sciences), one can logically conclude that it is accurate about God. There is the direct proof.
My belief stands on logic which supports the past.

You mentioned faith. What is faith but simply a form of trust?
Trust is the assurance that what has been promised will happen, as evidenced by prior experience.
Trust is the logical response to reliability.
I find that I have faith in that calculator to be accurate. I have faith in my computer to convey characters accurately (though there are times when it is not very good at it). I have faith in my girlfriend to be honest and true to our relationship.
I find that it takes more "faith" to believe in God than it does to trust the fossil record: God gave an easily accessible source of proof, and we're still looking for the fossils.

My belief in God comes from logical conclusions, historical and scientific. My faith in God is the logical response to the accuracy of his Word.

There is no logical way to not get God's message, except to actively avoid it.
C.S. Lewis once said that "a young man must be careful what he reads if he is to remain an atheist."
God isn't being cruel. Man simply wants to stand alone.

WoW and to think that I arrived at the opposite conclusion you did based on my observations of the Bible.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?


You don't appear to know what the word hypocrisy means

I don't even know how to put this. So I'll just say it the best way I can. I don't know whether it's been said already. If it has, sorry. I don't have the patience at 4 AM to read 4 pages of religion Vs. atheism in the 12-round title match.

I am an agnostic. I do not believe in an organized God because I do not believe other people's perception. I'll admit it now, and you can bitch and moan all you like - I see dead people. I see spirits that walk among us, I see daemons, I see angels. I have seen things that would make most people shit their pants and renounce the very idea that there is a guiding force out there. The power of Man is absolute over this world, as long as none of the other species object. I do not believe that Science is going to save us or destroy us. It is a tool. That is all. It is double-edged.

The "God" question is the same way. It is a way of protecting our family and our race. We teach our children there's a man in the clouds who loves them very much but will send them straight to fire and burning if they fall in love with that black girl. Voltaire said it best, "If God did not create man, then surely Man would have created God." (apologies if the quote's imperfect).

This debate over religion is infantile and useless. No amount of preaching will ever give me faith, and many people I know will never be dissuaded. You choose your way.

And to those of you who are Christian...if you've seen Constantine or read that issue of Hellblazer, Gabriel was right. I have knowledge. Not faith. They are very different.

WoW and to think that I arrived at the opposite conclusion you did based on my observations of the Bible.

It's normal for logic to lead you to different conclusions, this should not be a surprise. If it weren't then every logical person would arrive at the same conclusion regarding every topic. Pick up a copy of your local Mensa newsletter and you will find a variety of opinions on everything from politics to religion, and this from an organization composed only of people on the top 98th percentile of the IQ scale.

Why do Christian trollers get flamed?

When you start a thread, entitled "Why not just slobber all over Jesus?", youre obviously being a unpleasant troll, whos not interested in honest debate, nor differing opinions.

The same effect would be if I were to make a thread entitled "God is a hairy butthole!"

The only intention one can have when making a thread with a statement like that, is becuase he/she/whatever wishes to spout off about how god is a fallacy, and doesnt want to hear anyone quote scripture at them.

its called "Being a trolling puke".

Interesting theological debates on this site are rare, and the ones that stand out, stay away from the "He exists/No he doesnt" final arguement, for as long as possible.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?


You seem to be confusing freedom of speach, and respect.

Just because you say something does not take away my freedom of speach to coment on what you say

We teach our children there's a man in the clouds who loves them very much but will send them straight to fire and burning if they fall in love with that black girl.
Strange. I don't know any Christians, or even "christians" who do this.

Strange. I don't know any Christians, or even "christians" who do this.

He was talking about himself. Notice he said "we".

Strange. I don't know any Christians, or even "christians" who do this.
Well I do know people that were christians that taught this ... but sometimes you have to forgive the elderly for some things :p

(It really is awfull hearing a little old lady spouting such hate though, little old lady's are suposed to love ... sure they can be grumpy and craby but underneeth it all you always think that they love people)

I didn't say vast majority white, I said vast majority southeast asian and white. There are actually more White Muslims than there are Arab Muslims. Don't forget about all those Muslim Balkan countries.

Central Asia, too.

The estimates are that there are 1.2-1.5 billion Muslims in the world. We may have exceeded Catholics, but I'm not sure. Hard to know because places like the US don't ask religion on census forms, but there are places that keep track.

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm
This sounds wrong. Catholicism is said to be the world's largest faith at 1 billion followers.

Well I do know people that were christians that taught this ... but sometimes you have to forgive the elderly for some things.
Always wid tha age jokes! Sigh.

I know OF people who claim to be "christians" who do that, but every one of them I have talked with have NO idea what the Bible actually teaches, so I don't consider them Christians. ANYone preaching "hate" or discrimination deserves a very stern rebuke, regardless of age, and particularly if they label themselves as "christians."

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

Not to be harsh, but if you don't like being made fun of for still having an imaginary friend, then this is probably not the forum for you :).

Remember: free speech doesn't mean "speech that is kept free from all criticism and comment." Liberals most certainly defend your right to talk about your religion, just as they defend the right of other people to talk right back at you about it. It still cracks me up to see how many religious and right-wing people seem to think that "free speech" means "speech that nobody is allowed to criticize, critique, insult, discuss, or otherwise interact with in any way that doesn't involve total glowing agreement."

You're free to worship whatever Sky Fairy you like, and I will defend to the death your right to do so. I will (and have!) stood up for your right to speak opennly, loudly, and publicly about your beliefs, regardless of how I personally feel about those beliefs. But if you think I'm going to waste my time telling other people to hush up and spare your feelings...dude, get over yourself.

'snip'
The human logically assumes that the calculator has been programmed correctly in all things.
One can apply this same concept to religion.
Christian theology states that the Bible claims to be the only direct Word of God. If one juxtaposes knowledge to its experience and finds it accurate (in my experience and to my knowledge, it is accurate historically, traditionally, mythologically, socially, sociologically, prophetically, philosophically, and is even correct in the few areas where it touches on the hard sciences), one can logically conclude that it is accurate about God. There is the direct proof.
My belief stands on logic which supports the past.
'snip'


Interesting post. I think you have found a nice way to communicate a process by which one can determine the reliability of the Bible. However, I did find something that may look like a nit pick (initially) but may actually be something worth mentioning. You have posted ''......, and is even correct in a few areas where it touches on the hard sciences.'' It left me with the feeling that in all bar those few areas, where the Bible mentions something that applies to the 'hard sciences' is mostly incorrect. I feel that we need to distinguish between the words 'correct' and 'accurate'. For example, considering that most of the writers of the Bible were not scientists (with a possibility of Solomon as an exception), therefore they could hardly be expected to write with clarity and accuracy about matters outside of their understanding. But it is one thing to say that they were inaccurate, while quite another to say that they were incorrect or false. Therefore, I feel that you have unfortunately given the wrong impression. For example, if I were an Atheist (I am not), I would be highly critical of a book that contained falsities to be a good way of pointing me towards the truth. I suppose that would be a critical issue for any rational thinker, not only the Atheist. However, if the book contained some vague explanations, not false ones, mind, just vague, then I could more easily accept that this does not therefore equal untruth, particularly when I see that there is a very good reason for such vagueness. Thus I would be more likely to accept the claims that I find in such a book as reliable.

Not to be harsh, but if you don't like being made fun of for still having an imaginary friend, then this is probably not the forum for you :).

Remember: free speech doesn't mean "speech that is kept free from all criticism and comment." Liberals most certainly defend your right to talk about your religion, just as they defend the right of other people to talk right back at you about it. It still cracks me up to see how many religious and right-wing people seem to think that "free speech" means "speech that nobody is allowed to criticize, critique, insult, discuss, or otherwise interact with in any way that doesn't involve total glowing agreement."

You're free to worship whatever Sky Fairy you like, and I will defend to the death your right to do so. I will (and have!) stood up for your right to speak opennly, loudly, and publicly about your beliefs, regardless of how I personally feel about those beliefs. But if you think I'm going to waste my time telling other people to hush up and spare your feelings...dude, get over yourself.

In my opinion, it isn't that he/she has to 'get over oneself', but that he/she should simply get used to being opposed and even ridiculed, since, regardless of what you believe, there will always be someone who will laugh unkindly at you and put you down. The only way to avoid this is to simply not go public with your beliefs. Although that won't stop one getting upself at ridicule leveled at another person who has gone public with the beliefs that you share. The only fix that I can see is that you have to find a way to be more sure or secure in your beliefs, perhaps by checking them out and asking the hard questions--something that really isn't done enough.

Actually, on second thoughts, if that is what you meant by 'getting over oneself', then I concur.

Interesting post. I think you have found a nice way to communicate a process by which one can determine the reliability of the Bible. However, I did find something that may look like a nit pick (initially) but may actually be something worth mentioning. You have posted ''......, and is even correct in a few areas where it touches on the hard sciences.'' It left me with the feeling that in all bar those few areas, where the Bible mentions something that applies to the 'hard sciences' is mostly incorrect. I feel that we need to distinguish between the words 'correct' and 'accurate'. For example, considering that most of the writers of the Bible were not scientists (with a possibility of Solomon as an exception), therefore they could hardly be expected to write with clarity and accuracy about matters outside of their understanding. But it is one thing to say that they were inaccurate, while quite another to say that they were incorrect or false. Therefore, I feel that you have unfortunately given the wrong impression. For example, if I were an Atheist (I am not), I would be highly critical of a book that contained falsities to be a good way of pointing me towards the truth. I suppose that would be a critical issue for any rational thinker, not only the Atheist. However, if the book contained some vague explanations, not false ones, mind, just vague, then I could more easily accept that this does not therefore equal untruth, particularly when I see that there is a very good reason for such vagueness. Thus I would be more likely to accept the claims that I find in such a book as reliable.

Point made and well taken. Thank you.

I don't think that many Christians or Non-Believers (Those other than Christians, including Athiests. It's my definition, so if you want to use a different word, go ahead) get criticised on the NationStates all that much. Why? Because when people actually debate intelligently, it's a great talk. It benefits everyone. Theology is a great subject. Being a Christian, I love to look at other religions and see common themes and such. What do I see over and over? Be a good person. Love your God and mostly be a good person.

I believe in Christ. I'm sorry if that offends or something, but I'd die defending my belief. (So, yes, martyrdom comes up again as something going with Christianity.)

However, I think most Christians are appaled at the fact that there are 'so many' non-believers. (I'm not sure of actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Christian numbers aren't going down, others of different faiths are just becoming more bold to speak up). Therefore, they try to go on a mass crusade and try to get everyone to come back to the Light at once. (Something that didn't work too well on any of the Crusades back the Holy Land). So, loud-mouthed Christians go about saying that everyone else is wrong.

Hey, if some Islamic Follower came up and told me what I believed was wrong...Hell yeah I'd be pissed. Why? Because I believe what I believe. I came to my own conclusions. What right do you have to come up and tell me what I believe is wrong?

Which is why, I think, so many others on NationStates get mad. There are people out there who aren't respectful to what others believe. So, that's where people think they're getting persecuted. Well, news flash? You're not. Maybe you're presenting the material wrong and should go back for a reality check.

Also, there are so many other books that were going to be added to the Bible, but didn't quite make the cut. Why? Because Pope Constantine (I believe) decided he didn't like it. (Which is why I'm not Catholic. I'm Lutheran.) I think if anyone should have a say, it should be the people who have read all those books AND in their natural language. That way nothing is 'lost in translation'.

I haven't done that. But, I do think it would be beneficial to fulfilling my faith. Maybe that might fill some holes in the Chrisitain Theology. Maybe not.

But, at this point, I'd like to quote Stargate SG-1 (Sorry, I love that show. The quote is paraphrased, sorry.)

"The universe is infinite, which makes it impossible to know everything. You have to fill in the holes with a little bit of faith."

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

As I've said a hundred times, what's good for the goose...
Double standards blow.

To be fair a lot of the chirstians on here overeact or are trolls (the Loyal Christians for example). Athiest seeem to be a lot cleaer minded.

To be fair a lot of the chirstians on here overeact or are trolls (the Loyal Christians for example). Athiest seeem to be a lot cleaer minded.
Not really...plenty of people on NS are Christians, but don't go rubbing your face in it...Jocabia, Dempublicents, Deep Kimchi, and many, many more. The nutters are the ones that stick in your mind is all.

One thing I find to be interesting is that the Christians everyone hears about and from the most, are the loud, obnoxious, disrespectful intolerant ones. you rarely hear from the christians who quietly live thier faith to the best of their abilities, not bothering anyone else. Sadly it is the loud minority that color our views of the majority. Not every, indeed not even most, Christians are assholes.

Big Jim P']One thing I find to be interesting is that the Christians everyone hears about and from the most, are the loud, obnoxious, disrespectful intolerant ones. you rarely hear from the christians who quietly live thier faith to the best of their abilities, not bothering anyone else. Sadly it is the loud minority that color our views of the majority. Not every, indeed not even most, Christians are assholes.
Isn't that the case of all groups? The loud asshats become the symbols of the whole?

yes but about 99% of them are so forgive me for not including that 1%

Nope. Very, very wrong, and showing your ignorance. Less than 1/4 of Muslims are Arab.

Isn't that the case of all groups? The loud asshats become the symbols of the whole?

Yah. Thats why I really dislike, and avoid groups of people whenever possible. Between the loud assholes and the just plain wastes of skin, there are too few truly interesting persons. Meh, humanity? Who need them?

Actually, there was nothing Christian about the holocaust, most of the nazis who beleived in the nazi beleifs were atheists. Same goes with neo-nazis...they are mostly atheists.
Actually from what I've seen the opposite tends to be true.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about , but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

Have you talked to every single atheist in the world?
No, you haven't.
You are speaking in gross generalisations.
Yes there is hypocrisy. There always will be hypocrisy.
I am an atheist. Perhaps you've already guessed. But I don't think that Christianity is stupid. I don't ridicule people who do believe in that sort of thing.
In all the forums I've visited, it depends on levels of competency. If someone make a post along the lines of "OMG, CHRISTANITY IS TEH SUXXOR!!!" or something, they will be ridiculed. It works both ways. However, if they make a post that makes some good points, is not overtly hostile, & has no outright 'religion bashing' then they will be listened to.

It is fine for religions to speak about themselves proudly. It is their right. However, when that pride extends to "Our religion is the [i]right one. All others are wrong." that is when people get upset.
Also, that comment about 'can't wait for more people to become Christian' may get some riled up to.

OK, fine, I am what you would class as a 'liberal', & yes, I believe in free speech, no matter what.
However, this means that people like the Klu-Klux-Klan, & Neo-Nazis also get free speech, while I'm not happy with this, it is the price you have to pay...
These are often the ones marked as 'trolls' who give others of the faith a bad name, the fringe groups & extremists.
In answer to your final question: There is no reason why either religions status should be ridiculed, however many do not like to be patronised, which is probably what many people feel, mistakenly or not, when a Christian (or any other, for that matter) is speaking. & this may go both ways.

Well... Trolls can be either sentient rock monsters that are like computers in that they're smarter the colder it gets and stupider the hotter it gets or they're really, really stupid monsters that try to eat humans and either thrive on flame or die from it depending upon whether they've discovered the internet or not.

Whereas Christians is a broad group which may or may not include many/few trolls depending upon the control group of Christians.

So yeah, tell me what kinda troll you're selling and I'll reconsider, but if I have to take a random variety of troll, I'm just gonna go with the christians. Because at least they're fairly easy to scare into never speaking to you again if you really hate them/vice versa..

Actually from what I've seen the opposite tends to be true.
The Nazis had created their own type of faith, the German Faith Movement, based on ancient germanic pagan beliefs. It was not Christian.

He was talking about himself. Notice he said "we".

Actually, I meant the human species as a whole. Forgive me for including myself amongst the garbage.

The Nazis had created their own type of faith, the German Faith Movement, based on ancient germanic pagan beliefs. It was not Christian.

I was hoping for you to show up and back me up on this one. You know, after all the talks on Germans we have had.

You know what really grinds my gears? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is running rampant on this site. One starts a thread saying that Christianity is garbage and that he cant wait for us, as a whole, to spread farther await from religion. He is then praised for his words and agreed with. Another man starts a thread saying that Christianity is the truth and cant wait for people to become more religious. He is booed and marked as a troll.

It doesnt seem fair that the atheists can speak badly about [insert religion], but the religious cannot speak proudly about their religion or badly about tha atheists.

I have noticed that the atheists tend to be mainly liberals, the same people who get their panties in a twist if you even hint taking away free speech.....Well, why doesnt that apply to the other side? Why cant the religious speak without getting marked trolls, when you guys can? Why is it that if he comes on here preaching for religion, hes a troll, anti religion, hes praised and agreed with?

No, the key to debating is at the end saying, "lets agree to disagree' and in the case of religion, 'I guess we all find different ways to find meaning in our lives' - its about having enough humility to accept that you may no thave all the answers and that you don't have a monopoly on the truth.

I think I can respond to your problem in two parts.

First, also according to Christian theology, mankind was created to commune with God. Man went off and violated God's will.
My personal understanding of this theology is not completely clear, but I believe that it has to do with God's nature... he is a God of justice, and anything violating his will (which is the standard by which all are judged), must be punished, hence condemnation to hell. It doesn't mean that He's not all-powerful, it just means that He maintains His rules. God didn't like the idea that man was going to have to die, but someone had to be punished in order for justice to be carried out, hence Jesus, hence forgiveness, yada, yada.

second,
Consider a calculator. How much can one logically trust a calculator?
As far as one's command of mathematics. We assume that the calculator is accurate, as long as it remains constant with what we know of math. However, the average graphing calculator has far more mathematical capability than the average human. Can one logically conclude that the calculator is accurate on these functions? Yes and no.
Consider this string of Boolean logic:
IF "all things constant" AND "all things equal" AND "previous experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE, THEN "future experience"/"accuracy" = TRUE
If past experience proves something reliable, man generally assumes it to remain reliable. The proof here is experience juxtaposed to knowledge.
The human logically assumes that the calculator has been programmed correctly in all things.
One can apply this same concept to religion.
Christian theology states that the Bible claims to be the only direct Word of God. If one juxtaposes knowledge to its experience and finds it accurate (in my experience and to my knowledge, it is accurate historically, traditionally, mythologically, socially, sociologically, prophetically, philosophically, and is even correct in the few areas where it touches on the hard sciences), one can logically conclude that it is accurate about God. There is the direct proof.
My belief stands on logic which supports the past.

You mentioned faith. What is faith but simply a form of trust?
Trust is the assurance that what has been promised will happen, as evidenced by prior experience.
Trust is the logical response to reliability.
I find that I have faith in that calculator to be accurate. I have faith in my computer to convey characters accurately (though there are times when it is not very good at it). I have faith in my girlfriend to be honest and true to our relationship.
I find that it takes more "faith" to believe in God than it does to trust the fossil record: God gave an easily accessible source of proof, and we're still looking for the fossils.

My belief in God comes from logical conclusions, historical and scientific. My faith in God is the logical response to the accuracy of his Word.

There is no logical way to not get God's message, except to actively avoid it.
C.S. Lewis once said that "a young man must be careful what he reads if he is to remain an atheist."
God isn't being cruel. Man simply wants to stand alone.


The bible is not historically accurate. Lets take for example the great flood in the fable Noah's Ark. If there was a flood that covered the whole world there would be evidence, there is none.

"God gave an easily accessible source of proof"

If you mean the bible then your asumming that the bible is proof of god, it isn't. Its a man made book and there is no substantial proof that it is gods word other then people saying hey when i went up into the mountains where there was nobody else around god told me you were all sinners and are going to hell (Little bit of sarcasm there to prove a point.) Logical responses come from proven facts, faith comes from trust in unprovable beliefs. So of course it takes more faith to believe in god, its impossible to prove he exists, it's quite possible to prove that dinosaurs existed and that this world is older then 2000 years. This is where alot of faithful people get offened i hope you won't its not meant to be offensive. Having faith in god isn't necessairly a bad thing unless you use it as an excuse to bad things, like the crusades.

As the person above said, what would you say if I wrote a book on the creation of the world and handed it to you as my proof that the world wqas created by a Pink trouier wearing denity called Len, what would be the diffrence between that and the bible?

Always wid tha age jokes! Sigh.

I know OF people who claim to be "christians" who do that, but every one of them I have talked with have NO idea what the Bible actually teaches, so I don't consider them Christians. ANYone preaching "hate" or discrimination deserves a very stern rebuke, regardless of age, and particularly if they label themselves as "christians."
No sorry I was not trying to make an age joke I am serious ... I am from a farming town and some of the little old church ladies make some nasty comments

By the time they are 80 or 90 I have a feeling very little I say will effect them
Sometimes it is just best to ignore them and move on

I was not trying to comment on your age sorry if it sounded like that