NationStates Jolt Archive

What kind of question is "Did you pack your own luggage?" anyway?
"Did you pack your own luggage?"
"No, I called roomservice and had them send some one up to do it while I blindfolded myself and stayed in the bathroom."

What kind of question is "Did you pack your own luggage?" anyway?
"Did you pack your own luggage?"
"No, I called roomservice and had them send some one up to do it while I blindfolded myself and stayed in the bathroom."

"Did anyone ask you to bring anything on board?"
"Just this wrapped present the guy in the turban asked me to carry for good luck. I think it's a clock, it keeps ticking."

Nice, so the cops shot an innocent man. Good job US Air Marshals.

He probably *thought* there was a bomb in his luggage, which wouldn't surprise me given the general hysteria of terrorism.

Considering this all happened AFTER the plane had landed, and it had already done it's trip, I can't draw any logical conclusion that would indicate that he was, infact, going to blow any thing up. He already got ON the plane in the first place. Was his bag not screened, was it not checked, PRIOR to getting on it? Was he not on the plane for the entire trip? This all happened after the plane arrived at it's destination.

He was deemed a threat and the threat was neutralized.
"Nuclear Industries" It is still somewhat easy to smuggle weapons onboard, every single bag can not be checked.

Post de Menezes, I no longer trust press reports on issues like this.

"He said he had a bomb"? "He was behaving erratically"? "He reached into his bag"? "He was told to stop"? Whatever, and de Menezes was "running", "wearing a heavy winter coat", "with wires coming out of it", and "jumped the turn style" and "the police identified themselves before shooting" Except those were all eye-witness lies.

The truth will come out over the next few weeks and months, and in the meantime the officer who shot him should be put on leave with pay until it can be assessed that his actuions were actually reasonable.This is not the UK...the US "free" media rules here...The truth may come out over the next few weeks...

The bloody article contradicts itself. I want to know what happened.
First, he was shot while reaching into his bag after telling no certain person that he had a word that sounded like "bomb" in his carry on. Then, later in the article, he was shot for approaching the marshalls aggressively. Was he a South American zombie? What the hell really happened here.
well he was an american citizen

he came from quito, went through customs in miami, went back through security, then reboarded the plane to go to orlando. he got out of his seat and left the plane.

i dont recall how they said he had claimed to have a bomb.

the 2 air marshalls followed him off the plane, identified themselves as law enforcement and tried to get his complaince to their orders. when he reached into his bag, they shot him 2 or 3 times. he died.

What kind of question is "Did you pack your own luggage?" anyway?
"Did you pack your own luggage?"
"No, I called roomservice and had them send some one up to do it while I blindfolded myself and stayed in the bathroom."

Good hotels will unpack and pack your luggage for you; often while you are a breakfast, checking out or whatnot.

"Did anyone ask you to bring anything on board?"
"Just this wrapped present the guy in the turban asked me to carry for good luck. I think it's a clock, it keeps ticking."
"What was his name?"
"I don't know. Every time I asked it sounded like he had a hair caught in his throat."

well he was an american citizen

he came from quito, went through customs in miami, went back through security, then reboarded the plane to go to orlando. he got out of his seat and left the plane.

i dont recall how they said he had claimed to have a bomb.

the 2 air marshalls followed him off the plane, identified themselves as law enforcement and tried to get his complaince to their orders. when he reached into his bag, they shot him 2 or 3 times. he died.

Then why was his body on the plane?

Good hotels will unpack and pack your luggage for you; often while you are a breakfast, checking out or whatnot.
"Dude, check out the crazy way that guy folded my boxers!"

Then why was his body on the plane?
it was my understanding that it was on the jetway

they searched his checked luggage and found no bomb. they blew up some luggage, i couldnt tell if it was his or just some random baggage.

it was my understanding that it was on the jetway

they searched his checked luggage and found no bomb. they blew up some luggage, i couldnt tell if it was his or just some random baggage.
It was his.

they blew up some luggage... ...just some random baggage.Dude! They nuked my shorts!

:D

If we're going to engage in rank speculation, why not *really* speculate? Would the Air Marshall have shot him under the same circumstances if he were white, rather than hispanic (and therefore vaguely arabic looking)?

If we're going to engage in rank speculation, why not *really* speculate? Would the Air Marshall have shot him under the same circumstances if he were white, rather than hispanic (and therefore vaguely arabic looking)?
Yes.

Is Nuclear Industries being annoying enough to report to the mod yet? because NI is just railing around like a maniac and just ticking everyone off with his ignorance.NI thinks that man should not have been killed ... He has a right to think that...

I do not see any ignorance(both sides of the debate) ...all I see is that he has been a bit flamed...

The way you are trying to shut him down is not a fair way(threatening mod action)...
If you do succeed...I shall take his place and defend his side of the debate.

The lesson to be learned here is.. don't offer crazy people with guns lip balm, or suggest to anyone within earshot of the crazy armed people that you have some balm in your bag.

Good hotels will unpack and pack your luggage for you; often while you are a breakfast, checking out or whatnot.


I've never seen this personally. The only thing close to this that I have heard of is back when commercial airliners were starting out they had peopel fetch yoru luggage from yrou hotel room for you.

Yes.

My view is that, were we white, he'd have at least been less likely to be shot. The more "arab looking" you are they less leeway you get in terrorist related situations.

That means Arabs are highly likely to be shot, Latinos and Native Americans second most likely, then blacks, then asians, then whites.

If you are a gray heaired, white granny, you are not getting shot, even under these circumstances, or at least we'd call for the AM's head if he did shoot such a granny.

I've never seen this personally. The only thing close to this that I have heard of is back when commercial airliners were starting out they had peopel fetch yoru luggage from yrou hotel room for you.
It's very nice staying in those hotels. In fact, I had a 'hide--and-seek' game going with the valet at a hotel in India. He would launder my dirty clothes every day. It amounted to a shirt and some boxers on most days. So, being the troublesome person that I am, I figured he needed to wait until I had a full load saved up. I would try to find places in my room that he couldn't find the dirty clothes and hide them there. He was pretty good. Locking them in my suitcase was the only way I could keep him from finding the clothes.

In fact, these hotels will even keep cooks and waiters waiting until all hours of the night, if you make a request to the manager. It's nice coming home at 2 or 3 in the morning, after 18 hours of hard work, and having a hot meal served.

My view is that, were we white, he'd have at least been less likely to be shot. The more "arab looking" you are they less leeway you get in terrorist related situations.

That means Arabs are highly likely to be shot, Latinos and Native Americans second most likely, then blacks, then asians, then whites.

If you are a gray heaired, white granny, you are not getting shot, even under these circumstances, or at least we'd call for the AM's head if he did shoot such a granny.
Oh okay.

If you shoot an innocent man, there will be congressional hearings into how badly you fucked up.

If you fail to shoot him, and he blows up a planeload of people, there will be congressional hearings into how badly you fucked up.

250+ posts later...still no one has said anything better about this topic. This was a no-win situation from the start. We're talking about one man, having to make a snap decision, involving (he thinks anyway) the lives of a lot of other people. He did what was best in his professional judgement, and that's what we asked for when we gave him a gun and a badge.

When we all decide we'd be safer without air marshals, we can write our congressmen and get rid of the program.

Until then, my heart goes out to the family of the deceased. It is tragic that things like this happen at all. But, it also goes out to the Air Marshal who did an excellent job today...and as his reward gets to deal not only with personal grief...but inevitable criticism, inverstigation, and likely litigation.

I've never seen this personally. The only thing close to this that I have heard of is back when commercial airliners were starting out they had peopel fetch yoru luggage from yrou hotel room for you.

It's more common in the far east in my experience, but certianly some hotels in North America 24 hr butler service, e.g, the St. Regis in NY, or Le Chateau Frontenac in Quebec city. (Though you had to get a suite in the later for the extra service when I was there).

This was a no-win situation from the start. We're talking about one man, having to make a snap decision, involving (he thinks anyway) the lives of a lot of other people. He did what was best in his professional judgement, and that's what we asked for when we gave him a gun and a badge.

When we all decide we'd be safer without air marshals, we can write our congressmen and get rid of the program.

Until then, my heart goes out to the family of the deceased. It is tragic that things like this happen at all. But, it also goes out to the Air Marshal who did an excellent job today...and as his reward gets to deal not only with personal grief...but inevitable criticism, inverstigation, and likely litigation.Good post...
I agree...even if a few things are not clear...

No, things were NOT clear. With the man frantically running shouting that he has a bomb, it's hard to get straight details. Oh yeah, Nuclear, if you're still on, I bet you would have LOVED for that guy to have blown the bomb. He wasn't in the jet anymore, but I bet the blast would have reached a few AM's.

I do not blame the air marshalls at all in this. They seemed to have done the right thing as it seemed to them at the time.

Most of the reports I hear now say that he was shot on the jetway. If that is the case, how many people could he have been threatening at the time he was shot? On the plane his "bomb" was a threat to passengers. Out in the open, it seems to me he was *less* of a threat.

It's also not clear that he was reaching for his bag, as there are conflicting reports on that.

No, things were NOT clear. With the man frantically running shouting that he has a bomb, it's hard to get straight details. Oh yeah, Nuclear, if you're still on, I bet you would have LOVED for that guy to have blown the bomb. He wasn't in the jet anymore, but I bet the blast would have reached a few AM's.

Wait wait wait.... what terrorist do you know of that goes around screaming at the top of his voice "I...HAVE... A... BOMB, I HAVE A BOMB... I HAVE A BOMB, I HAVE A BOMB" before proceeding to go running around inside a plane and the walkway for a good 30s yelling at the top of his voice...

Normally terrorists don't DO that. They just go...

...*BOOM*...

And, yes
Until then, my heart goes out to the family of the deceased. It is tragic that things like this happen at all. But, it also goes out to the Air Marshal who did an excellent job today...and as his reward gets to deal not only with personal grief...but inevitable criticism, inverstigation, and likely litigation.
i agree also.

Wait wait wait.... what terrorist do you know of that goes around screaming at the top of his voice "I...HAVE... A... BOMB, I HAVE A BOMB... I HAVE A BOMB, I HAVE A BOMB" before proceeding to go running around inside a plane and the walkway for a good 30s yelling at the top of his voice...

Normally terrorists don't DO that. They just go...

...*BOOM*...

And, yes
i agree also.

And you, being a counterterrorism expert...

Oh, wait a second. Are you expecting people who strap explosives to themselves to think logically? And terrorists announce bombs all the time. Think back to the 70s-80s. The hostage crises.

Let's look at this logically. A guy screams he has a bomb. You ask him to go out and submit for search. He does, but then refuses to let you search him and apparently reaches into his bag.

Now, being a law enforcement officer, you have a choice. You can pull the trigger and waste someone who may be innocent, or you can risk the chance of you, him, and maybe some other people dying.

Counterterrorism operations is just what it's named. It's not a psychological evaluation. When you have the risk of someone blowing themselves and others up, your job is not to check up on the guys medical history. Your job is to neutralize any possible threat as quickly as possible.

And you, being a counterterrorism expert...

Oh, wait a second. Are you expecting people who strap explosives to themselves to think logically? And terrorists announce bombs all the time. Think back to the 70s-80s. The hostage crises.

Let's look at this logically. A guy screams he has a bomb. You ask him to go out and submit for search. He does, but then refuses to let you search him and apparently reaches into his bag.

Now, being a law enforcement officer, you have a choice. You can pull the trigger and waste someone who may be innocent, or you can risk the chance of you, him, and maybe some other people dying.

Counterterrorism operations is just what it's named. It's not a psychological evaluation. When you have the risk of someone blowing themselves and others up, your job is not to check up on the guys medical history. Your job is to neutralize any possible threat as quickly as possible.

Oh I apologise profusely, i didn't realise that you were the foremost authority on NS in Counterterrorism. Please accept my humble and sincere apologies.

Having a brain would dictate... Hold on, this is a bit odd. Why hasn't he exploded it yet, why is he running around like a lunatic... and why is that woman screaming at me that he's ...what... damn, can't hear her. I'll drop him anyway.

The Air Marshal did his job with instinct. Good. Its a shame at the same time.

Oh I apologise profusely, i didn't realise that you were the foremost authority on NS in Counterterrorism. Please accept my humble and sincere apologies.

Having a brain would dictate... Hold on, this is a bit odd. Why hasn't he exploded it yet, why is he running around like a lunatic... and why is that woman screaming at me that he's ...what... damn, can't hear her. I'll drop him anyway.

The Air Marshal did his job with instinct. Good. Its a shame at the same time.

As they say, shoot em all, and let god sort em out!

Oh I apologise profusely, i didn't realise that you were the foremost authority on NS in Counterterrorism. Please accept my humble and sincere apologies.

Having a brain would dictate... Hold on, this is a bit odd. Why hasn't he exploded it yet, why is he running around like a lunatic... and why is that woman screaming at me that he's ...what... damn, can't hear her. I'll drop him anyway.

The Air Marshal did his job with instinct. Good. Its a shame at the same time.

It doesnt matter the way he was acting. Besides, we dont know for sure the woman was screaming to them that her husband was psychotic lunatic who didnt take his meds. Only certain newspapers are saying this. And even if she was saying it, we dont know if that was her just saying that to stall for her husband to arm the bomb and detonate it.He posed a threat to the entire airport, and the AMs did there job. The guy shouldnt have been flying on a plane if he wasnt mentally stable enough to know not to shout "I have a bomb!!!" I blame the wife for her ignorance in allowing him to go so long without his meds. Maybe her husband wouldnt be in a body bag if she thought smarter.

My question is... if you have a bomb, why do you blow up an average passenger airline...? Why not do something useful with it like, I don't know, blow up something like a government institution. Harder to do? Yes. But it'll have a better effect.

I REALLY enjoy how much people are ranting on about this subject. It's a freaking unfortunate incident. People die in more messed up things all the time. Why not instead of wasting away your time (And coincidentally my own...) By posting over and over the same comments that everyone else has already covered, do something productive, like making a bomb and blowing yourself up in the process? That would be pretty awesome.

You aren't a political genius, your views on current events are not grounds breaking. No one honestly cares if you support the Air Marshall's actions or not.

The "news" blows anyways.

And on that note: Have a nice day, and go f*** yourselves. :D

Pugna'] I blame the wife for her ignorance in allowing him to go so long without his meds. Maybe her husband wouldnt be in a body bag if she thought smarter.

Really? Wow. I blame the airport staff in that case for allowing a clearly unstable man on the airplane.


Because clearly, thatnks to the wonders of 24hr by the minute news stations, we have all the accurate facts and stories... a la De Menzses.

My question is... if you have a bomb, why do you blow up an average passenger airline...? Why not do something useful with it like, I don't know, blow up something like a government institution. Harder to do? Yes. But it'll have a better effect.

I REALLY enjoy how much people are ranting on about this subject. It's a freaking unfortunate incident. People die in more messed up things all the time. Why not instead of wasting away your time (And coincidentally my own...) By posting over and over the same comments that everyone else has already covered, do something productive, like making a bomb and blowing yourself up in the process? That would be pretty awesome.

You aren't a political genius, your views on current events are not grounds breaking. No one honestly cares if you support the Air Marshall's actions or not.

The "news" blows anyways.

And on that note: Have a nice day, and go f*** yourselves. :D
Feel accomplished yet?

As they say, shoot em all, and let god sort em out!
Correction: Allah. It's not "God," it's "Allah." Do try and remember that. :p

My question is... if you have a bomb, why do you blow up an average passenger airline...? Why not do something useful with it like, I don't know, blow up something like a government institution. Harder to do? Yes. But it'll have a better effect.
Government institutions are mostly places with large open areas where bombs would make neat scorch marks.

Government institutions are mostly places with large open areas where bombs would make neat scorch marks.
Kinda like the federal building in Ok City, huh?

Bombs in airplanes used to be a lot easier. Especially before they made you accompany all your checked bags.

Kinda like the federal building in Ok City, huh?

Bombs in airplanes used to be a lot easier. Especially before they made you accompany all your checked bags.
Truck bombs arn't things you can stick in carry-ons. Unless it is a Hotwheels, then how much damage is it going to do in general?

Truck bombs arn't things you can stick in carry-ons. Unless it is a Hotwheels, then how much damage is it going to do in general?

It would cause havoc in the ant world....

It would cause havoc in the ant world....
I will destroy the ant world with my giant "laser" of doom made from a magnifying glass.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/07/airplane.gunshot/index.html

Seems like breaking news. I just got home.


Well, if he said he had a bomb, and if he walked forward agressivly against the marshalls, and if he reached inside his backpack after all this...

I'm sorry for his family's loss, I'm sorry for everybody involved, but there was no other option.

But he wasn't on a plane. He was in the jetway.

Yes. It is a tragedy. But he claimed to have a bomb, and was in the jetway, headed toward...

An airline terminal, with even MORE people.


I am sorry he died. I am sorry the marshall who killed him now knows the man did not, in fact have a bomb. I am sorry his wife lost her husband. I am sorry he did not take his medicine.

The Air Marshalls STILL acted appropriately.

Considering the number of people who fly (there are over a million people in the air at any given moment), that this is the first time that I can recall that an air marshal has actually killed someone...

Was on the news. This is the first person killed by the Marshalls -- the first time they have discharged weapons on an airplane.

Suggest he should have done? I don't have a suggestion. If the AM wasn't there in the first place, he wouldn't be dead. Again, I'll reiterrate the amount of bombs found on planes, which currently stands at zero.

Hm, you wouldn't possibly have forgotten Mr. Richard Reed, the Shoe Bomber?
Or a little place called Lockerbee, Scotland, where a plane fell out of the sky after a bomb detonated on it?

/wonders at what point somebody thought he said he had a bomb.. was it after they'd ordered him off the plane? or before?

None of the passenger reports say he was saying that. was it before or after they scared the living shit out of a mentally ill man by waving guns in his face?

Murder is murder. Train people to kill and you can be sure more 'innocents' will die because of it than 'terrorists.'

What is the purpose of anti terrorism if it inspires terror?

Murder is murder.

Murder = unlawful killing.
This = perhaps manslaughter if it is found that the Marshalls were unjustified in reacting to the threat in this manner.

No matter what, this = a tragedy.

Enough! The real tragedy here is that that this is going to shed a negative light on air marshals. He did his job - he is not a psychiatrist he is an AM and he did what he had to do. If I was on the plane I would have applauded. 'nuff said.

In my state, that'd be murder. Any kind of killing being unlawful. No excuses, no "but he told me to do it" no "oh i'm sorry.. i thought" no.. "but.. in my old country people with badges and half assed excuses could do that."

See, expediency doesn't make murder right. A suicide bomber thinks what he's about to do is the best thing for him, his god and his people. Doesn't make it right does it?

If you want to kill people, do it on your own time.

If they believed he had a bomb, they shouldn't of been so close to him that it could be a threat. If they believed he had a bomb, he should of (and was) moved to a place where the bomb wasn't a threat to civilians. If they believed he had a bomb.. which tbqh.....


I wouldn't expect anybody to agree, my own imo.. if the guy had a bomb.. the air marshall would still be a murderer.

Correction: Allah. It's not "God," it's "Allah." Do try and remember that. :p

So according to you, every bomber who deserves to be shot is a Muslim. Wonderful generalization and stereotyping Forrest.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gosh this is really awfull. This won't do the US any good at all.

Gosh this is really awfull. This won't do the US any good at all.
Yes I can see how showing the whole world that Air Marshalls on duty in airports throughout the United States will shoot to kill a suspected bomber would hinder the anti terror effort . Now the terrorist or other morons might go someplace else to blow up or act crazy and that will make it very hard for the Air Marshalls to shoot them because they wont be on planes and may be in some other country altoghether without crazy gun happy Marshall .

Yes I can see how showing the whole world that Air Marshalls on duty in airports throughout the United States will shoot to kill a suspected bomber would hinder the anti terror effort . Now the terrorist or other morons might go someplace else to blow up or act crazy and that will make it very hard for the Air Marshalls to shoot them because they wont be on planes and may be in some other country altoghether without crazy gun happy Marshall .
Because any person actually trying to bomb the plane is going to go "I have a bomb!" until they are ready to do something with it. And now that they know they can get shot, they probably won't say it at all.

Because any person actually trying to bomb the plane is going to go "I have a bomb!" until they are ready to do something with it. And now that they know they can get shot, they probably won't say it at all.

So the next hijacker will be a mime ?

That dumbass got completley owned. BOOM HEADSHOT! :sniper:

I'm sorry, if you told me that you had a bomb, and made a threat, if you so much as blinked, you would be history. And I'm only a civilian carrying a gun.

Hmmmm. You're a civilian with a gun on a plane? I totally agree with your actions, but chances are that you'd be next. In all honesty though, I would kill that guy so fast...well, it'd just be really fast, that's all.

The majority of responses in this thread have prooven one thing...

Bin Laden won his terror campaign...

Hmmmm. You're a civilian with a gun on a plane? I totally agree with your actions, but chances are that you'd be next. In all honesty though, I would kill that guy so fast...well, it'd just be really fast, that's all.

Not on a plane, but in public in Virginia. Concealed carry permit.

Truck bombs arn't things you can stick in carry-ons. Unless it is a Hotwheels, then how much damage is it going to do in general?

In a confined space, a suicide bomber wearing just a belt of explosives instantly killed 30 people on a bus today.

Figure roughly the same number of people, or more, if the plane bursts into flame (which is likely) and people can't get out fast enough.

So the next hijacker will be a mime ?

Mimes should be shot on sight wether they could have a bomb or not.

Mimes should be shot on sight wether they could have a bomb or not.

No, but you can take the mime home and have your way with them. What are they going to do, scream for help? ;)

Mimes should be shot on sight wether they could have a bomb or not.
Heh! Why do so many people hate mimes??? :confused:

Heh! Why do so many people hate mimes??? :confused:

I think it's an American thing. We never, ever, understood mimes, but were forced to watch street performers and mimes who visited elementary schools in our youth. Very confusing and non-intuitive. Emotionally scarring.

Kinda like watching a Jerry Lewis movie - which the French also like.

Heh! Why do so many people hate mimes??? :confused:
Marcel Marceau's reign of terror is not easily forgotten!!! (I actually don't really get it either...street performers are fun)

Yes. It is a tragedy. But he claimed to have a bomb, and was in the jetway, headed toward...

An airline terminal, with even MORE people.


I am sorry he died. I am sorry the marshall who killed him now knows the man did not, in fact have a bomb. I am sorry his wife lost her husband. I am sorry he did not take his medicine.

The Air Marshalls STILL acted appropriately.


I agree.

And I hope people are paying attention-and learn-We are still going to be held responsible for our actions even if its possible we have some mental deficiency.
And that dangerous behavior will be dealt with without hesitation.

the media is already posturing in hopes that one of the officers made a mistake or were compromised in some way so they can tear this whole scenario apart.
And our enemies watch closely to see how we deal with it. They pray for our confusion and lack of determination.

We want men that act based on their training and instinct. Not ones that hesitate to ponder how they will be flayed on TV and have their organizations turn their backs on them, offering them up as sacraficial lambs.

I think it's an American thing. We never, ever, understood mimes, but were forced to watch street performers and mimes who visited elementary schools in our youth. Very confusing and non-intuitive. Emotionally scarring.

Kinda like watching a Jerry Lewis movie - which the French also like.
LOL! God! I use to HATE Jerry Lewis movies! I remember thinking, "OMG! NO one is that stupid!" Then I found NS General! :rolleyes:

Marcel Marceau's reign of terror is not easily forgotten!!! (I actually don't really get it either...street performers are fun)
Street performers sound really good after a bowl. Kinda like the way a peanut butter sandwich tastes really great after a bowl.

Marcel Marceau's reign of terror is not easily forgotten!!! (I actually don't really get it either...street performers are fun)
:D

The few times I've seen street performers or "street theatre," I was fascinated. Don't see much of that here in the Southern US.

Street performers sound really good after a bowl. Kinda like the way a peanut butter sandwich tastes really great after a bowl.
A bowl of what? Wheaties? Cream of Wheat? Soup? :p

Heh! Why do so many people hate mimes??? :confused:


Instinct. and my instinct has never steered me wrong. There is something very wrong going on behind a painted face.

I also dislike clowns, Mummenschanz, Blue Men and more often than not- KISS. Its a painted face thing.

A bowl of what? Wheaties? Cream of Wheat? Soup? :p
I think you know, Eut. You lived through the Sixties.

:D

The few times I've seen street performers or "street theatre," I was fascinated. Don't see much of that here in the Southern US.


Yeah-you're standing there in slack jawed wonder whilst their cohorts pick your pockets. And they are all holding a straight razor somewhere on their person.

Street performers sound really good after a bowl. Kinda like the way a peanut butter sandwich tastes really great after a bowl.
Everything tastes better after a bowl...

Murder = unlawful killing.
This = perhaps manslaughter if it is found that the Marshalls were unjustified in reacting to the threat in this manner.

No matter what, this = a tragedy.


There is one less nut I have to worry about taking a shit on the refreshment cart while I'm trying to go somewhere.

Not on a plane, but in public in Virginia. Concealed carry permit.

I am also a citizen with a gun, and if I saw you blow someone away on the street, you'd still be next. If we can't give leeway to a crazy guy who may have a bomb, then we can't give leeway to a potential criminal who does have a gun and just used it against an unarmed man.

I am also a citizen with a gun, and if I saw youblow someone away on the street, you'd still be next. If we can't give leeway to a crazy guy who may have a bomb, then we can't give leeway to a potential criminal who does have a gun and just used it against an unarmed man.

Fortunately for people who carry guns, it rarely works that way.

He's not unarmed if he says "I've got a bomb!" repeatedly and has a backpack on his back.

Similarly, a man with his hand in his pocket screaming, "Don't move, I've got a gun!" for all intents and purposes may be considered to be an armed threat until proven otherwise.

In both cases, I would be in fear of my life, and fully justified in shooting.

Instinct. and my instinct has never steered me wrong. There is something very wrong going on behind a painted face.

I also dislike clowns, Mummenschanz, Blue Men and more often than not- KISS. Its a painted face thing.
Sounds like you don't appreciate people "hiding" behind a mask. Hmm. Wonder why you like NS General so much? :confused:

I think you know, Eut. You lived through the Sixties.
Nooo comment! :p

I am also a citizen with a gun, and if I saw you blow someone away on the street, you'd still be next. If we can't give leeway to a crazy guy who may have a bomb, then we can't give leeway to a potential criminal who does have a gun and just used it against an unarmed man.


So-you just shoot shooters? What if I yell that he's bipolar and hasnt taken his medication? Will you stop and thoughtfully ponder the how all possible scenarios might play out? And how they'll be further twisted and contorted by the media and pundits who spend their lives yapping to desperately fill air time?

Yeah-you're standing there in slack jawed wonder whilst their cohorts pick your pockets. And they are all holding a straight razor somewhere on their person.
Oh. Well then, since you put it that way ... ! :D

Fortunately for people who carry guns, it rarely works that way.

He's not unarmed if he says "I've got a bomb!" repeatedly and has a backpack on his back.

Similarly, a man with his hand in his pocket screaming, "Don't move, I've got a gun!" for all intents and purposes may be considered to be an armed threat until proven otherwise.

In both cases, I would be in fear of my life, and fully justified in shooting.
BANG!

Problem solved. Simple! :D

Sounds like you don't appreciate people "hiding" behind a mask. Hmm. Wonder why you like NS General so much? :confused:


Who ever said I liked it ?


Dont tell me-you're wearing a mask right now?

Who ever said I liked it ?

Dont tell me-you're wearing a mask right now?
ROFLMAO!!!!

Um ... nooo, she doesn't like me wearing it outside the bedroom! Mwahahaha! :D

So-you just shoot shooters? What if I yell that he's bipolar and hasnt taken his medication? Will you stop and thoughtfully ponder the how all possible scenarios might play out? And how they'll be further twisted and contorted by the media and pundits who spend their lives yapping to desperately fill air time?

He can't shoot shooters if he's a civilian, unless the shooter is pointing the weapon at him, or making a verbal threat to everyone in the area.

Someone yelling, "I have a bomb!" and carrying a bag is making a lethal threat to everyone in the area, even if there is no bomb in the bag. Any reasonable person in the area would be in fear of their life.

If, after that act, I then drew and fired and killed the person making the threat, I would be within the law (but there would still be an investigation).

If, after I shot, this other poster drew and shot me, when I had made no threat and not pointed my gun at him, and when we take into account the previous threat from the "man with the bomb", the second shooting would be murder.

ROFLMAO!!!!

Um ... nooo, she doesn't like me wearing it outside the bedroom! Mwahahaha! :D


Yeah-but you probably just wear the modest black Lone Ranger or Zorro-type mask.

those never concerned me too much. Nor did a bandana covering the mouth and nose.

Soon, in NJ, I'll be able to wear a Werewolf mask to Motor Vehicles for my photo ID.

He can't shoot shooters if he's a civilian, unless the shooter is pointing the weapon at him, or making a verbal threat to everyone in the area.

If, after I shot, this other poster drew and shot me, when I had made no threat and not pointed my gun at him, and when we take into account the previous threat from the "man with the bomb", the second shooting would be murder.

What if he only "winged" you in the elbow? A lot of folks dont want messy killings, they just want the bad guys to have minor flesh wounds (from bullets) so they yell ow! Screw up their face and drop their weapon,then the good guys can drag them off to jail. :p

Everyone is responsible for themselves

Someone suffering from mental illness is not. As in, legally.

she should have taken better care of him.

She should have put him on a leash, right, or kept a taser handy. Too bad she did not, because that way the only way to take care of him was to run up after him and warn all bystanders that he was not in possession of his faculties. That's what she should have done.

Oh wait, she did.

To put the final bastardly cap on my argument, one less crazy is hardly a crime in a world filled with them, and it could be argued that the gene pool has been made just a bit cleaner by this man's removal.

I do hope you'd have had the sense not to say this if he were black or Jewish. However, it is interesting to know that you do not believe the mentally ill to have things like fancy human rights and stuff.

What if he only "winged" you in the elbow? A lot of folks dont want messy killings, they just want the bad guys to have minor flesh wounds (from bullets) so they yell ow! Screw up their face and drop their weapon,then the good guys can drag them off to jail. :p


If he "winged" me in the elbow, it's unlikely that I'll drop my weapon or stop acting. I would then assume that he is a lethal threat, turn and empty my weapon into him.

Trying to give people flesh wounds is suicidal in real life.

What if he only "winged" you in the elbow? A lot of folks dont want messy killings, they just want the bad guys to have minor flesh wounds (from bullets) so they yell ow! Screw up their face and drop their weapon,then the good guys can drag them off to jail. :p
Can't do it. I was taught to aim at the center of mass because that was the only reliable target.

I'm surprised by the number of posters, after the first hundred or so, that really believe excess force was used in this case. What's amazing is that they are willing to trade the lives of everyone on that aircraft for this guy because he might not have had a bomb.

If he "winged" me in the elbow, it's unlikely that I'll drop my weapon or stop acting. I would then assume that he is a lethal threat, turn and empty my weapon into him.

Trying to give people flesh wounds is suicidal in real life.

That happened to be my point. You have to know I wasnt serious.

Can't do it. I was taught to aim at the center of mass because that was the only reliable target.

I'm surprised by the number of posters, after the first hundred or so, that really believe excess force was used in this case. What's amazing is that they are willing to trade the lives of everyone on that aircraft for this guy because he might not have had a bomb.

I'm sorry- I was mocking that naive notion, not supporting it.

Can't do it. I was taught to aim at the center of mass because that was the only reliable target.

I'm surprised by the number of posters, after the first hundred or so, that really believe excess force was used in this case. What's amazing is that they are willing to trade the lives of everyone on that aircraft for this guy because he might not have had a bomb.

Shooting a man yelling "I have a bomb!" who has a backpack is a no-brainer for me.

What, I'm supposed to believe a woman nearby who says, "he's crazy and he hasn't taken his meds!"?

If I believe her, I'm more likely to think he does have a bomb.

We can search the backpack later. Look at his medical records later. In moments of extremes like this, there isn't time to do a lot of postulating.

I'm sorry- I was mocking that naive notion, not supporting it.
It's hard to write sarcasm. I wish I was good enough to do it.

Bin Laden won ...He won long time ago...

all this is just running up the score. .. bonus...extra points...

Someone suffering from mental illness is not. As in, legally.



She should have put him on a leash, right, or kept a taser handy. Too bad she did not, because that way the only way to take care of him was to run up after him and warn all bystanders that he was not in possession of his faculties. That's what she should have done.

Oh wait, she did.



I do hope you'd have had the sense not to say this if he were black or Jewish. However, it is interesting to know that you do not believe the mentally ill to have things like fancy human rights and stuff.

Again, it isn't a psychological evaluation. Making a bomb threat on an airplane is not protected by the First Amendment, your mental condition inside. Is it unfortunate this guy was nuts enough to do this? Yes. But the people I feel most sorry for are the Marshals who did their job and are going to take tons of stuff like this from people like you for a very, very long time.

Again, if you want to do a psychological evaluation every time someone makes a bomb threat on a plane, join the Air Marshals and do it. Because when that one in a million guy does have a bomb and decides to trigger it...

Again, this guy was warned and then made aggressive movements towards the officers. It wasn't a 'hey! a mentally impaired colored person who says he has a bomb!' *bang bang* 'Freeze!' situation. I don't think anyone else in the Air Marshals would have done it differently. There is no 'special needs' program in Federal CT units.

Yes I can see how showing the whole world that Air Marshalls on duty in airports throughout the United States will shoot to kill a suspected bomber would hinder the anti terror effort . Now the terrorist or other morons might go someplace else to blow up or act crazy and that will make it very hard for the Air Marshalls to shoot them because they wont be on planes and may be in some other country altoghether without crazy gun happy Marshall .What will hinder the US is the fact they thought a man running to take his medication was a suspected bomber. Haven't they learn't their lesson yet? Do they not understand that real terrorists don't run at airports? They are prepared to die for their cause. They have no reason to run. I won't even comment on your insensitivity to the fact that an innocent man has been killed.

What will hinder the US is the fact they thought a man running to take his medication was a suspected bomber. Haven't they learn't their lesson yet? Do they not understand that real terrorists don't run at airports? They are prepared to die for their cause. They have no reason to run. I won't even comment on your insensitivity to the fact that an innocent man has been killed.

Some terrorists do run. In Israel, a woman at a supermarket noticed a suspicious man standing in the store. When she confronted him, he ran to the front of the store - and when she caught up to him, she shot him twice in the head.

Opening his jacket, they found an explosive belt.

Some don't have the nerve that others do.

In situations like this, police are trained to respond to a credible threat. If he had said, 'I have a gun', you are told in training that you actually have to see the gun. But since bombs come hidden, and even when exposed may appear nothing like what you would expect, when someone - anyone - says "I have a bomb", it is automatically a credible threat. It's not insensitive to say that there is no time to discuss this with the person - especially when that person reaches inside the bag when told to stop. The assumption is that the person is reaching for a detonator.

It's a simple calculus. Consider that you have no idea if the bomb is real or not. Consider that the person is now disobeying your orders to stop reaching in a bag - eliminating your opportunity to discuss anything. You're now going to roll the dice.

You get to put one of two choices on the spot, "If I Am Wrong". You can either put yourself, and everyone on the plane on that spot, or put the man with his hand in the bag on that spot.

If you're wrong, would you rather be wrong with 90+ people, or 1 person.

It's really that simple. If it sounds cold hearted to you, I can't apologize, because I know how I would bet.

In situations like this, police are trained to respond to a credible threat. If he had said, 'I have a gun', you are told in training that you actually have to see the gun.

Just picking up on this point, is it not becomming more and more prevelant to shoot on the assumption that the suspect has a gun? Rather then taking the chance, law enforcement officers are getting more 'trigger happy' (not the phrase I wanted to use but...) and shooting to kill before they have established credibly that a gun might be present?

too many pages, so i'll just ask. has anyone mentioned this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1918131,00.html)?

Federal officials reported that the 44-year-old Costa Rican immigrant shouted that he had a bomb in his bag and ignored instructions to surrender.

The official account is now being challenged by other passengers who were on board Flight 924 to Orlando on Wednesday.

No bomb was found after the shooting. Witnesses said that Mr Alpizar's wife Anne Buechner shouted amid the chaos that her husband was bipolar and had not taken his medication.

"I absolutely never heard the word ’bomb’ at all," said John McAlhany, who was returning on the plane from a fishing trip in Key West, Florida.

"I never heard the word ’bomb’ when we got off the plane. I never heard the word ’bomb’ when we were sequestered. The first time I heard the word ’bomb’ was when I was interviewed by the FBI."

Mr McAlhany said that he had heard Mr Alpizar arguing with his wife shortly after they took their seats towards the rear of the plane, saying that he had to get off.

"She said, `Calm down'," Mr McAlhany said.

Mr Alpizar then ran down the aisle, with his wife close behind, he said.

"She was running behind him saying, `He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's got a disorder'," Mr McAlhany said. "She was trying to explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off.
...
Another passenger, Mary Gardner, added: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."
...

or this (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7001389280)?

...The two marshals say Alpizar announced he was carrying a bomb before being killed. But, no other witness has publicly agreed with that account...

perhaps next we'll move on to saying that this guy lived in the same apartment complex as a couple people sort of vaguely suspected of maybe having ties to terrorists...

If you're wrong, would you rather be wrong with 90+ people, or 1 person.

The ends justify the means. And why the hell hadn't he taken his medicine? If he's that messed up without it wouldn't his wife remind him? No one is at fault here the Air Marshels did what they had to. It's very easy to sit back and think about what a real terrorist would do but they had just a few seconds, and the lives of about 100 people to worry about.

perhaps next we'll move on to saying that this guy lived in the same apartment complex as a couple people sort of vaguely suspected of maybe having ties to terrorists...

So the AMs just shot a guy for running down the isle? People who were trained for this exact situation just didn't know what to do? Come on that's not realistic at all.

Nice, so the cops shot an innocent man. Good job US Air Marshals.

He probably *thought* there was a bomb in his luggage, which wouldn't surprise me given the general hysteria of terrorism.

He said he had a bomb. He was on his downside of Bipolar. Don't go blamin the Air Marshals. They did their job.

[QUOTE=Glutopia]At home you fear your own shadowsQUOTE]

Do we? I wasn't aware my shadow was scaring me or that I was afraid at all. Mabey I am scared but I don't know it.

He said he had a bomb.

no he didn't.

no he didn't.

I'm sorry, didn't mean that. He implied it.

If this happened in anyother country we wouldn't be debating it.

I'm sorry, didn't mean that. He implied it.
Running around with a backpack does not imply that some one has a bomb; it implies they are late for school.

Again, it isn't a psychological evaluation. Making a bomb threat on an airplane is not protected by the First Amendment, your mental condition inside. Is it unfortunate this guy was nuts enough to do this? Yes. But the people I feel most sorry for are the Marshals who did their job and are going to take tons of stuff like this from people like you for a very, very long time.


First Amendment... what the? Do you even know what the first amendment says? This has nothing to do with freedom of speech or opinion. It has to do with the right of having one's life considered non-expendable, regardless of one's state of physical or mental health.

But considering how long it's taken some states to stop executing the mentally handicapped (those that *have* stopped, anyway), I can see people in the US might have problems grasping that concept.