NationStates Jolt Archive

I was reared by a Unitarian (since lapsed) and a lapsed Jew (since further lapsed). I have observed a range of winter holidays, from the Winter Solstice to Christmas to Hanukah to Pancha Ganapati, and more. However, Christmas is definitely the holiday my family has observed most consistently.

As a child, I thought this was because Christmas was "normal" and we were being "normal" by doing what everybody else was doing. As I got older, I realized two things: first of all, that our celebration of Christmas was not really "normal" by many standards. Secondly, my mother (the organizer and instigator of most major family events) had a very clear reason for liking Christmas.

I think you will understand both of these revelations of mine if I share with you the Christmas story as I was taught it.*


"Mommy, what is Christmas?"

Once upon a time, there were Christians but no Christmas. Before there was Christmas, there was the feast of Epiphany. It was a celebration of how the Christian God 'shone forth' to mankind in human form, as the baby Jesus. It was held on January 6th. However, in the 4th century CE--

("Were you born then, Daddy?" "Coal in your stocking, kid.")

--in the 4th century, some Christian leaders decided to celebrate Jesus' birthday on December 25th.

("Why, Mommy?" "Be quiet and I'll tell you.")

Alongside the Christians, there lived a people called the Pagans, and the Pagans celebrated the holiday of the winter solstice on December 25th. The Mass of Christ was assigned to December 25th so that the Pagans and the Christians could have a holiday together. Over time, the Christians to the West came to celebrate Christmas, while those in the East continued to celebrate Epiphany, and this gave some people the idea of having a 12-day festival connecting the two. This is why we sing, "The 12 Days Of Christmas."

("Why don't we have Christmas for 12 days?" "Because Mommy doesn't want to have to bake that many cookies.")


"Why do we have a tree for Christmas?"

In the deep of Scandanavian winter, the sun disappears for many days in a row. After it had been dark for over a month, the people would send scounts into the mountains see if they could catch a peek of the sun rising again. When the scounts brought back word of the sun's return there would be a great festival called the Yuletide. This special feast would be held around a fire burning with the Yule log, and other fires would be lit to represent the return of the sun. People would tie apples to the branches of the trees to remind themselves that spring was coming. This is why we decorate our trees with round bulbs, and why some people still decorate their trees with fruit, strings of popcorn, and other real foods.

The Romans also celebrated a winter festival, and theirs was called Saturnalia for their god Saturn. They would have parties in the streets, big meals with lots of friends, and they would exchange presents for good luck. They also decorated their halls with laurel garlands--

("Is that like Laurel and Hardy?" "No, darling, that's like the green stuff Daddy put on the mantlepiece.")

--and they would put up green trees lit with candles. That's why we put garlands around the house and put lights on our trees.


"Why does Uncle Karl always warn me about standing under the mistletoe?"

The Norse people had a goddess named Frigga, who was the Goddess of love, marriage, and fertility. Frigga had a son named Balder who was shot and killed by an arrow made of mistletoe. When Balder was restored to life, Frigga was so happy that she blessed the mistletoe and gave a kiss to anybody who passed under it. Some people believe that each time you kiss under the mistletoe you should pluck one berry from it, and when there are no more berries then there are no more kisses.


"Mommy, is Santa Claus the same thing as Jesus?"**

No, dear. Our Santa Claus is actually a lot of different people rolled up into one. His name comes from the story of Saint Nicholas, a bishop in Turkey who gave presents to the poor, who inspired the Dutch story of Sinterklaas. However, lots of other people have had their own Santas. The Russians have Ded Moroz ("Grandfather Frost"), who delivers presents to children and wears red boots, a fur coat, and a long white beard. A Teutonic god named Odin rode through the air on his eight-legged flying horse, Slepnir, to deliver presents to children. The children would leave a piece of straw out in the field for Slepnir, much like how we leave out milk and cookies for Santa.

("You mean for Daddy." "The kid is onto us, dear.")

Thor, a Germanic god, was also an elderly, plump man in red. He would fly through the air in a chariot drawn by his two white goats, Cracker and Gnasher. He had a palace in "the northland" and would come down the chimney because he was a god of fire.


"Why do we celebrate Christmas, when we aren't Christian?"

Christmas is a holiday that is made up of many different cultures and beliefs. The Christians gave us the name of the holiday. The Romans, the Pagans, and the Scandanavians gave us the decorations and the parties. The Dutch and the Russians and the Norse brought us Santa. Many ancient peoples helped us pick the date for the holiday, as they followed the Sun and the seasons to chart the solstices. When we celebrate Christmas, we are carrying on the traditions of many cultures and many people who have come before us.

We celebrate Christmas because winter can be dark and cold, and we need to remember warmth and brightness and joy. Christmas reminds us that life is still strong even in the dead of winter. Christmas also gives us a chance to celebrate with our loved ones, and a chance to give gifts and thanks to the people who have made our lives brighter.



*Please keep in mind that this is the kiddy version, and does not include the economic and political forces that have so thoroughly hijacked the American holiday season. We all know that the real meaning of Christmas is to support the economy by buying things you neither need nor can afford, and that anybody who doesn't do so is a godless Communist.

**I actually did ask this question, as I suspect many American children do, and I was secretly confused as to why Christians worshipped Jesus when Santa was the one who brought the presents.

So, if the traditions of all the other sources of what makes up Christmas aren't questioned, why is the name "Christ-mas" questioned? Does the Christian tradition have less validity somehow than the other streams of tradition which contributed?

We all know that the real meaning of Christmas is to support the economy by buying things you neither need nor can afford, and that anybody who doesn't do so is a godless Communist.



Things that are either in the septic or the garbage before the first credit card bill arrives.

Why do we celebrate Christmas, when we aren't Christian?


It's the presents.

Everyone likes free stuff.

It's the presents.

Everyone likes free stuff.
And under what sub-genre of theoretical physics does that fall? :D

I always thought that because the TV was crappy that evening, it was a good opportunity to meet the familly...

So, if the traditions of all the other sources of what makes up Christmas aren't questioned, why is the name "Christ-mas" questioned? Does the Christian tradition have less validity somehow than the other streams of tradition which contributed?
When I was young, my (Christian) uncle used to rant about the "War on Christmas." However, the "War" as he saw it was pretty much exactly the opposite of the current "War on Christmas" described by people like Bill O'Reilly.

See, to my uncle, the "War on Christmas" was being waged by the commercial sector, who were trying to plaster the name of Christmas onto every piece of cheap junk they could find. My uncle felt that the very name of "Christmas" was being devalued by the people who wanted it stuck anywhere and everywhere.

These days, the name of "Christmas" is under attack because there is a concerted effort to erase the real history of Christmas. The religious reich want to "put the Christ back in Christmas," by denying and excluding all the non-Christian cultures that have contributed to this winter holiday. THAT is why so many people are currently opposed to using the name of Christmas: because the religious nutters have turned "Christmas" into a curse word, a word that is delivered like an insult rather than a blessing, a word that is used as an attack on all non-Christ-believers. That is what non-Christians (and many reasonable Christians) oppose when they oppose smearing "Christmas" all over the place.

Also, some people (like my uncle) just find it appallingly tacky.

Personally, I don't much care. I also don't believe for one tiny second that there is actually a "War on Christmas" being waged by secularists. The "War on Christmas" is an invention of pundits who want to sell books and boost ratings, and I'm surprised at how many Americans fall for their schtick.

And under what sub-genre of theoretical physics does that fall? :D

The Unified Theory.

Thats where everyone in the world unites to give me free things. :D

The Unified Theory.

Thats where everyone in the world unites to give me free things. :D

Amen.

But in spanish..Wouldn't christmas mean more-christ?

Christmas is a holiday that is made up of many different cultures and beliefs. The Christians gave us the name of the holiday. The Romans, the Pagans, and the Scandanavians gave us the decorations and the parties. The Dutch and the Russians and the Norse brought us Santa. Many ancient peoples helped us pick the date for the holiday, as they followed the Sun and the seasons to chart the solstices. When we celebrate Christmas, we are carrying on the traditions of many cultures and many people who have come before us.
I'm not Christian, Roman, Pagan, Scandinavian, Dutch, Russian, Norse, or ancient. Does that make me a freeloader?

We celebrate Christmas because winter can be dark and cold, and we need to remember warmth and brightness and joy. Christmas reminds us that life is still strong even in the dead of winter.
What about the Australians?

The Unified Theory.

Thats where everyone in the world unites to give me free things. :D
And, as with the rest of theoretical physics, it has yet to be proved from empirical evidence.

I'm not Christian, Roman, Pagan, Scandinavian, Dutch, Russian, Norse, or ancient. Does that make me a freeloader?


Yes. Also, you're probably a godless Communist. HE'S A WITCH!!! STONE HIM!!


What about the Australians?

Pfft. We're AMERICANS. Have we given you any reason to believe we care about the cultures in other nations?

And, as with the rest of theoretical physics, it has yet to be proved from empirical evidence.

That may be true, but to be on the safe side lets go with it.

Its always eaiser to back out then to try and jump in last minute.

Yes. Also, you're probably a godless Communist. HE'S A WITCH!!! STONE HIM!!
Cool.
Godless, yes, Communist, no. They're not hardline enough :p .
Warlock, please.
I enjoy being stoned...

Pfft. We're AMERICANS. Have we given you any reason to believe we care what other nations are doing?
Hmmm...good call.

That may be true, but to be on the safe side lets go with it.

Its always eaiser to back out then to try and jump in last minute.
Ok then. Have a cookie.

i dont think my son asked any of those questions

but then he is a careful boy who understands that getting massively cool presents, great food, fun time with the family shouldnt be jeopardized with smartass questions.

i dont remember what, if anything, i told him about the religious aspects of christmas.

i dont think my son asked any of those questions

but then he is a careful boy who understands that getting massively cool presents, great food, fun time with the family shouldnt be jeopardized with smartass questions.

i dont remember what, if anything, i told him about the religious aspects of christmas.
Hmm, smart kid...

See, to my uncle, the "War on Christmas" was being waged by the commercial sector, who were trying to plaster the name of Christmas onto every piece of cheap junk they could find. My uncle felt that the very name of "Christmas" was being devalued by the people who wanted it stuck anywhere and everywhere. Your uncle's perceptive.

I thought most people knew about the whole taking of pagan symbols for Christmas anyway. We're a cunning, sneaky lot. :D

Your uncle's perceptive.

I thought most people knew about the whole taking of pagan symbols for Christmas anyway. We're a cunning, sneaky lot. :D
My parents loved reminding me that Thor was part of the Santa myth, because the whole "Santa is watching" thing is even more effective when you believe Santa is also the Thunder God.

My parents loved reminding me that Thor was part of the Santa myth, because the whole "Santa is watching" thing is even more effective when you believe Santa is also the Thunder God.

Instead of coal, bad kids get whupped upside the head with a Divine Hammer. I like it.

My parents loved reminding me that Thor was part of the Santa myth, because the whole "Santa is watching" thing is even more effective when you believe Santa is also the Thunder God. I always thought that it was based on Saint 'Klaus, patron saint of thieves. I suppose that an electrically-charged warhammer in the head is more of a deterrent to bad behaviour than coal in a sock.

So basicly if your not Christian, Pagan, Roman, Scandinavian, Russian or Turkish then Christmas has very little to do with you.

So basicly if your not Christian, Pagan, Roman, Scandinavian, Russian or Turkish then Christmas has very little to do with you.
The secular version of Christmas is apparently popular in parts of Japan.

Instead of coal, bad kids get whupped upside the head with a Divine Hammer. I like it.

Back in the day, yeah, these days Thor has upgraded... :sniper:


Bad kids need to stay away from the windows on Christmas or Thor's gonna headshot them. =P

I know i'm probably coming into this discussion late, but I think Christmas has lost all religious significance, and degenerated wholly into a consumer holiday. I think the tradition of Jesus' birth has evolved into the tradition of presents and corporate greed. Don't get me wrong, there is still people out there who celebrate christmas for the religious reasons, and corporations aren't all to blame.

Here's an answer I pose to the question of this thread. How do you explain to a child, that because you the parent are athiest or non-christian, and have imposed your views on your child, who is too young to officially make up his/her mind, that they should feel left out from the other kids who recieve massive amts of presents.

Amen.

But in spanish..Wouldn't christmas mean more-christ?
Hahaha...that's why it's Navidad.

Beats me ... I don't celebrate Christmas. Never have ... never will. What others do is their own business.

Beats me ... I don't celebrate Christmas. Never have ... never will. What others do is their own business.
I assume that's because of your religion (I know I know what religion you are, but for the life of me, I can't remember). However, my girlfriend's family, who are lapsed Buddhists from Sri Lanka, do celebrate Christmas. It's because they didn't want their kids to miss out when they were younger, and now they're just used to it. Plus it's difficult to escape Christmas here in the UK.

I assume that's because of your religion (I know I know what religion you are, but for the life of me, I can't remember). However, my girlfriend's family, who are lapsed Buddhists from Sri Lanka, do celebrate Christmas. It's because they didn't want their kids to miss out when they were younger, and now they're just used to it. Plus it's difficult to escape Christmas here in the UK.

Not really a religious thing - I am Muslim, grew up Jewish - more of a meaningless thing. I never felt I missed out growing up. I mean, yes, it seemed all the other kids were so excited about Christmas, but I had Passover and Shabbat.

So I never "missed out".

IIRC, in Spain they still celebrate El Día de los Reyes Magos on 6 enero. We watched a parade in some town in my Spanish class, and I'm pretty sure it was for los Reyes Magos. It was funny because one of the wise men, Balshazaar, maybe, is for some reason traditionally portrayed as African. But there were no black people in this town, so they had to paint a white guy black so their parade would be "authentic."

Back in the day, yeah, these days Thor has upgraded... :sniper:


Bad kids need to stay away from the windows on Christmas or Thor's gonna headshot them. =P

OMG Santa chimneyhaxx!

The secular version of Christmas is apparently popular in parts of Japan.

The best instances of it are when they confuse multiple traditions. My friend back home has photographic evidence of a Crucified Santa Claus in a Tokyo mall window.

"Why do we celebrate Christmas, when we aren't Christian?"


The same reason I celebrate any number of other festivals... it's all about the food. :)

My interpretation of Christmas was that it existed (ignoring the commercial parts) solely as a vehicle for Santa Claus, and Santa Claus existed so that you could teach kids that someone out there gets off on the concept of rewarding good kids.
Or at least, that would be the point if the world was more ideal. In reality, Santa rewards everyone, even the vile, little shits, simply for being alive and having the "right kind of heritage" (ie, wealthy and Xtian) which renders a moral lesson invalid and presents yet another example of Cronyism and Unjustly applied judgement to a world already fraught with it.
Of course my father, brilliant at what he did, made Santa Claus even more corrupted by subjecting him completely to having the house clean for the two weeks before Christmas. This, in turn, taught me the valuable lesson that, in reality, it doesn't matter if your are Good or Evil throught your life; all that matters is that you can clean up the outside and present a good face when your Judgement comes.

Flip side of the coin... I grew up in a Christian household and we DIDN'T celebrate Christmas becuase it is, in fact, a holiday made up of a bunch of other traditions, and wasn't even a "christian" holiday until well after 1000 AD. When the Christians decided they were jealous of the Jews and various other holidays and wanted one too, and then just stole a bunch of stuff from everyone else and assimilated it.

*snip*

Awewome!

My parents weren't really knowledgeable about most of this to know where it all came from, and I wish they had been. I asked about the origins of Santa (once I found, you know, the big secret). I asked why we have a tree, why we give gifts, all that good stuff. My parents didn't (and probably still don't) know the various practices that led to the celebrations we have today, so the answer was usually "tradition". I've had to look most of this up myself, and I find it all very interesting, so I'll hope to tell my kids where all the traditions come from.

My boyfriend and I were discussing the general American view of Christmas the other day, and we came to the conclusion that the religious aspects really have little to do with the general idea of the holiday, even to most Christians. Most of us have a view of Christmas basically set by Dickens. Every single Christmas move (with the exception of nativities) is a Scrooge story where a person who is a miser or doesn't like Christmas learns the "meaning of Christmas", which in these stories is purely secular - to care about others and to give. These things certainly can be a part of a religion, but the message of the stories reaches out to people regardless of religion. So Christmas has become largely secular.

-snip the other good part-
Personally, I don't much care. I also don't believe for one tiny second that there is actually a "War on Christmas" being waged by secularists. The "War on Christmas" is an invention of pundits who want to sell books and boost ratings, and I'm surprised at how many Americans fall for their schtick.
Ah, this is why I'm your Milhouse...

Ah, this is why I'm your Milhouse...
I'm definitely having a bit of a Lisa fit over this "War on Christmas" crap. Ten years ago the "War" was waged by retailers who used Christmas to sell junk, but now the "War" is supposedly being led by anybody who thinks a HOLYday shouldn't be slapped onto every store window and used car sale in town.

Any excuse to get together with friends and family, eat a ton of good food, and get free stuff is a good enough to celebrate.

Any excuse to get together with friends and family, eat a ton of good food, and get free stuff is a good enough to celebrate.
Damn skippy.

Amen.

But in spanish..Wouldn't christmas mean more-christ?

Christmas in Spanish is Navidad, giving meaning to Christs' birth.

Your happy Spanish lesson of the day!
(and your last. that's about all the Spanish I know)

I'm definitely having a bit of a Lisa fit over this "War on Christmas" crap. Ten years ago the "War" was waged by retailers who used Christmas to sell junk, but now the "War" is supposedly being led by anybody who thinks a HOLYday shouldn't be slapped onto every store window and used car sale in town.
Seriously, can I carry your books?

Spot on target.

Christmas in Spanish is Navidad, giving meaning to Christs' birth.

And Christmas is in actuality a mutated contraction for Christ's Mass. WHich is why I celebrate Festivus.

Actually, I am thinking of printing out this thread and taping it to the locker next to mine at work. The guy crossed out "Xmas" in my memo and wrote Christmas over it, then wrote Amen at the end. Which I promptly changed to RAmen, and crossed out Christmas and wrote FlyingSpaghettiMonstermas.

So, if the traditions of all the other sources of what makes up Christmas aren't questioned, why is the name "Christ-mas" questioned? Does the Christian tradition have less validity somehow than the other streams of tradition which contributed?

Unless the laws changed and it is now called Christianity™, I don't believe that it's proper to complain about trademark dilution regarding Christmas.

The secular version of Christmas is apparently popular in parts of Japan.
PARTS of Japan? What do you mean parts of?

*Currently listening to my students butcher Deck the Halls. I REALLY have to teach them R/L*

To me, Christmas isn't a Christian holiday at all. Yes, there's a religious aspect of it for Christians, but to everyone else, you can celebrate it just fine without associating it with Christianity. Which is why I find it just a bit ridiculous when people tell you to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" to keep from offending other people.

Not much I can add; this is a pretty good description of how Christmas came about and why so many non-Christians celebrate it- it's effectively secularized.

Amen.

But in Spanish..Wouldn't Christmas mean more-Christ?In Latino countries and in Spain they Call it mostly "Navidad" ,...some call it "Pascuas"

in French countries they call it "Noel"...

In both cultures its about Jesus...and about all the other traditions...including gifts and decorations

the fat man on red pajamas is either called "Papa Noel" or "Viejito Pasquero" or "Santa Claus" in Latino countries

...and "Pere Noel" in French ones...

The guy crossed out "Xmas" in my memo and wrote Christmas over it, then wrote Amen at the end.
Which is actually kind of funny as the X in Xmas actually stands for the Greek letter Chi and is part of how Christ is written in Greek. So Xmas really is Christmas. ;)

The same reason I celebrate any number of other festivals... it's all about the food. :)
The best kind of food-free food.

It kind of surprises me, Bottle, that you didn't also include the Mithras/Horus follow-up to the nature of this "holy-"day.

Christmas is definitely a secular holiday. I'm not sure what annoys me most; atheists and other non-christians who try to make it out to be a christian religious day, or christians who try to do so.

Christmas, regardless of it's origins has come to mean one universal thematic concept: Peace and Generosity toward your fellow man. Is that such a horrible thing to celebrate?

What about the Australians?

we like time to lie around on boxing day

So basicly if your not Christian, Pagan, Roman, Scandinavian, Russian or Turkish then Christmas has very little to do with you.

Woot! I'm Pagan and Scandinavian! Double the presents for me! :D

In Latino countries and in Spain they Call it mostly "Navidad" ,...some call it "Pascuas"

in French countries they call it "Noel"...

In both cultures its about Jesus...and about all the other traditions...including gifts and decorations

the fat man on red pajamas is either called "Papa Noel" or "Viejito Pasquero" or "Santa Claus" in Latino countries

...and "Pere Noel" in French ones...
"Navidad"-Is that what that stupid song is about.






You Bloody Atheists can go to work and miss on a Holiday for all i care.

"Navidad"-Is that what that stupid song is about.






You Bloody Atheists can go to work and miss on a Holiday for all i care.
It's pretty sweet, usually. The boss usually puts out some food, you get time and a half or double, hardly anyone shows up and you can be pretty half assed about how you help them. You have an excuse not to go to your relatives soulsucking gathering. I dig it.

"Navidad"-Is that what that stupid song is about.






You Bloody Atheists can go to work and miss on a Holiday for all i care.


You mean "Feliz Navidad", by Jose Feliciano?

Brought to you by, your friendly neighborhood bloody athiest.

To me, Christmas isn't a Christian holiday at all. Yes, there's a religious aspect of it for Christians, but to everyone else, you can celebrate it just fine without associating it with Christianity. Which is why I find it just a bit ridiculous when people tell you to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" to keep from offending other people.
Dude, I don't even GET this hoohah over "Happy Holidays."

You know why we say "Happy Holidays"? Because most Christmas-celebrating Americans also celebrate New Years Day and Thanksgiving, and that would make three holidays within a short span of time...a "season" of "holidays," if you will. During this "holiday season," some people will say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and have a Happy New Year."

It kind of surprises me, Bottle, that you didn't also include the Mithras/Horus follow-up to the nature of this "holy-"day.I learned about Mithras and Horus at Easter. Not sure why, that's just how it got broken down for me.

Bonus Daily Show addition to this thread:

Bottle's super-covert agents have uncovered how deep the Plot Against Christmas really goes! It turns out that this radical anti-Christian hate agenda can be traced all the way back to....THE PURITANS!

That's right, the first white Christian settlers who founded the famous early colonies were also a part of the War On Christmas(tm). They banned all Christmas festivals as "unseemly." CAN YOU IMAGINE?!

What could be "unseemly" about Sears sticking "Merry Christmas" stickers on every last blender in the store? How could it be "unseemly" for car dealerships to use the celebration of Christ's birth to distract customers from the fine print on a lease agreement? I think it is the height of seemly-ness for department store salespeople to say "Merry Christmas" while they pressure you to buy a third pair of shoes.

It just goes to show that the Godless Librul Anti-American Lesbogay Abortion Doctor Porno Alliance of Secularism has got its claws into just about everything.

You have an excuse not to go to your relatives soulsucking gathering.
Huh? "Soulsucking gathering?" WTF, over??

It just goes to show that the Godless Librul Anti-American Lesbogay Abortion Doctor Porno Alliance of Secularism has got its claws into just about everything.
Sounds pretty correct to me. Have you had a recent change of heart then? :D

Huh? "Soulsucking gathering?" WTF, over??
My relatives feed off the failings of each other, even if they have to invent it. Spending the day with them can actually remove your will to live as you watch them tear at the metaphorical corpse of whoever just left the room. My chest tightens just thinking about it...

My relatives feed off the failings of each other, even if they have to invent it. Spending the day with them can actually remove your will to live as you watch them tear at the metaphorical corpse of whoever just left the room. My chest tightens just thinking about it...
Man! I'm sorry. When my family gets together, we kid around a lot, but we also talk about everything under the sun, or play board games, or play with the little people. And everyone knows that I don't tolerate any nonsense about cappin' on each other, especially not during the holidays. Since my children are all grown now ( the youngest is 32 ), I will seldom intervene in their lives, but when they get together they know to be kind to one another no matter how much something irritates them. The Poppa has SPOKEN! :D

The secular version of Christmas is apparently popular in parts of Japan.

Yep.

Funnily enough, one of the biggest Xmas "traditions" is the big Xmas eve date - man takes woman out for expensive dinner, gives jewelery, man takes woman to "love hotel" and collects prize. Spending Xmas eve feasting and fucking always seemed nice and pagan to me. ;)


Olara, if memory serves correctly, it's Dia de los Tres Reyes Magos, at least in Mexico.

Man! I'm sorry. When my family gets together, we kid around a lot, but we also talk about everything under the sun, or play board games, or play with the little people. And everyone knows that I don't tolerate any nonsense about cappin' on each other, especially not during the holidays. Since my children are all grown now ( the youngest is 32 ), I will seldom intervene in their lives, but when they get together they know to be kind to one another no matter how much something irritates them. The Poppa has SPOKEN! :D
Meh, me and my brother deal with it by being as unavailable as possible (though my brother has a son and needs the support, even if it has to come from vultures). Since we're both artists (my brother is a musician and I am a playwright and filmmaker) we get carry thier broken dreams...

When I was a slave wager I had a ready out. I almost had one this year by getting on a film in the middle of nowhere again-when I get off a project I sleep for a couple days and can beg off due to exhaustion. Crossed fingers, there's another film starting up in San Jose on the 16th....

So basicly if your not Christian, Pagan, Roman, Scandinavian, Russian or Turkish then Christmas has very little to do with you.

Just because I'm agnostic means I don't have the right to celebrate Christmas?!? WTF! I have every right. To me Christmas is a time to spend with family. We get to gether and play games and just talk. Christmas isn't a religious holiday for but that doesn't mean that I still can't celebrate Christmas. Rude!

Yep.

Funnily enough, one of the biggest Xmas "traditions" is the big Xmas eve date - man takes woman out for expensive dinner, gives jewelery, man takes woman to "love hotel" and collects prize. Spending Xmas eve feasting and fucking always seemed nice and pagan to me. ;)

Yeah, nothing like societally-endorsed prostitution to ring in the holiday season...

Sounds pretty correct to me. Have you had a recent change of heart then? :D
Change of heart? Hardly! I'm delighted to know that the pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-sex, anti-religion forces are so very powerful!

So, this just hit me. The whole 'War Against Christmas' thing is painted as an intollerance to christians.

But really, what they are in fact saying is, "How dare you celebrate Christmas in your own way. You have to do it our way." Sort of disengenious way of putting thier argument forth, really....

So, this just hit me. The whole 'War Against Christmas' thing is painted as an intollerance to christians.

But really, what they are in fact saying is, "How dare you celebrate Christmas in your own way. You have to do it our way." Sort of disengenious way of putting thier argument forth, really....
Imagine that. American Christians acting in a slightly inconsistent, and possibly insensitive, manner. I never thought I'd see the day.

But you're not quite right on their message. What they are REALLY saying is, "We may hold a 3/4th majority of the population, all three branches of government, the majority of major corporations in this country, and dominion over most media outlets, but WE ARE THE ONES BEING OPPRESSED AROUND HERE."

In a way, it's a very empowering statement for the rest of us. With all the power the Christians hold, our under-represented minority of non-Christians is managing to DESTROY THEIR MOST SACRED HOLIDAY. Imagine what will happen when Christianity is no longer the majority religion in this country! I'm already training up some pet lions in anticipation!

In a way, it's a very empowering statement for the rest of us. With all the power the Christians hold, our under-represented minority of non-Christians is managing to DESTROY THEIR MOST SACRED HOLIDAY.
I thought that was Easter? (Named after Eostre, Germanic fertility goddess.)

Of course, I'm happy to help destroy that one with chocolate and rabbits.

Christmas, regardless of it's origins has come to mean one universal thematic concept: Peace and Generosity toward your fellow man. Is that such a horrible thing to celebrate?
Right on! Let's hear it for ideals.

Christmas to me when I was a child was always about the lights. Brightly coloured lights around the house, on the Christmas tree, and on other homes throughout the city. Getting in the car to go look at other people's lights was the high-lite of Christmas. Getting presents was okay, but it was more like... rip into them for 2 minutes and get a toy you really don't want to play with. Not the best part, for me.

Christmas isn't really a christian holiday anymore anyway. Hell, Americans didn't even celebrate Christmas for 70 years or so because it was a "European" holiday and we wanted nothing to do with that. Then it was re-introduced in America in the middle of the 1800's and soon after that, like any good American thing, was commercialized.

This commercialization of Christmas, to me, makes it a secular holiday, and anyone can enjoy it. So what if you don't go to a Christian mass on December 25th. Many Christians don't either. Without going to mass, what exactly is so Christian about it? The tree? The lights? The presents? The family?

Just think of it as a Thanksgiving with presents.

I thought that was Easter? (Named after Eostre, Germanic fertility goddess.)

During November and December (and a little ways into January sometimes), the Most Holy Christian Holiday is Christmas. Starting in March, the Most Holy Christian Holiday is Easter. Outside of these windows, the only holiday of consequence is the Horrible Satanic Festival of Baby-Killing Witches on All-Hallows Eve.


Of course, I'm happy to help destroy that one with chocolate and rabbits.
Pfft. As if rabbits could ever be defeated by mere humans. They can reproduce an entire infantry devision in the time it takes you to chamber a round.

Just think of it as a Thanksgiving with presents.
That's exactly how I explained American Christmas to a coworker who recently moved here from China.

Imagine that. American Christians acting in a slightly inconsistent, and possibly insensitive, manner. I never thought I'd see the day.

But you're not quite right on their message. What they are REALLY saying is, "We may hold a 3/4th majority of the population, all three branches of government, the majority of major corporations in this country, and dominion over most media outlets, but WE ARE THE ONES BEING OPPRESSED AROUND HERE."

In a way, it's a very empowering statement for the rest of us. With all the power the Christians hold, our under-represented minority of non-Christians is managing to DESTROY THEIR MOST SACRED HOLIDAY. Imagine what will happen when Christianity is no longer the majority religion in this country! I'm already training up some pet lions in anticipation!
"And remember, we're the only ones that get to play the victim!"

Meh, me and my brother deal with it by being as unavailable as possible (though my brother has a son and needs the support, even if it has to come from vultures). Since we're both artists (my brother is a musician and I am a playwright and filmmaker) we get carry thier broken dreams...

When I was a slave wager I had a ready out. I almost had one this year by getting on a film in the middle of nowhere again-when I get off a project I sleep for a couple days and can beg off due to exhaustion. Crossed fingers, there's another film starting up in San Jose on the 16th....
That's very distressing. Family should be where you feel the most comfortable and safe, not something to be avoided. You're welcome to join us this Christmas if you like! :D

That's very distressing. Family should be where you feel the most comfortable and safe, not something to be avoided. You're welcome to join us this Christmas if you like! :D
Very kind, but nothin' doin'. I've seen Easy Rider, I know what they do to people like me in the south...;)

Change of heart? Hardly! I'm delighted to know that the pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-sex, anti-religion forces are so very powerful!
Heh! Where's your sense of humor this morning? TSK! :p

Very kind, but nothin' doin'. I've seen Easy Rider, I know what they do to people like me in the south...;)
LOL! Jeeze, man. Your view is rather ... um ... warped! :p

Probably because Winter is a dark cold time and we need a reason to put up colourful lights and drink/eat a lot to cheer up.

LOL! Jeeze, man. Your view is rather ... um ... warped! :p
This from the guy who calls my state 'the land of fruits and nuts'...;)

Heh! Where's your sense of humor this morning? TSK! :p
Same place as yours, aparently :P. I don't much care for ANY mass agendas, because no matter how much I agree with them in principle they almost always end up getting in my way...

Very kind, but nothin' doin'. I've seen Easy Rider, I know what they do to people like me in the south...;)

That's totally unfair, biased, and unrealistic!

If you really want to know what 'the South' is like, you should watch Deliverance....

:)

Just because I'm agnostic means I don't have the right to celebrate Christmas?!? WTF! I have every right. To me Christmas is a time to spend with family. We get to gether and play games and just talk. Christmas isn't a religious holiday for but that doesn't mean that I still can't celebrate Christmas. Rude!

Well in fairness, you can spend time with family any time.

Even though both of my parents as well as my step-mother are atheists we always celebrated christmas. Partly because it's fun, but partly because of the whole peace on earth, goodwill towards man, be with family thing. Besides, it's not originally christian.

Well in fairness, you can spend time with family any time.
The thing is, Christmas is not only a federal holiday, it's also an extended school and work holiday for a great many Americans. For instance, throughout my public school education we never had less than 2 weeks of Christmas break...if you want to get together with family, particularly family that doesn't live close by, it's usually necessary to find a time when the kids don't have to miss school.

You Bloody Atheists can go to work and miss on a Holiday for all i care.

The funny thing is, if Christmas is truly only a Christian and religious holiday, the government cannot give it as a national holiday. Thus, federal employees would not get the day off, banks probably wouldn't (since they usually follow federal holidays), and many other jobs would also stop giving it. Thus, if Christmas is a purely religious holiday, most Christians are going to end up having to work on it (not this year, since it's on a weekend, but most years), right alongside those who aren't Christian. And nobody will get extra pay for working that day like they do now.

This from the guy who calls my state 'the land of fruits and nuts'...;)
ROFLMFAO!!!! Uh ... I refuse to respond to that question! NEXT! :D

Same place as yours, aparently :P. I don't much care for ANY mass agendas, because no matter how much I agree with them in principle they almost always end up getting in my way...
"Getting in your way?" Hmm. Care to elaborate on that for me? Pweese! :)

That's totally unfair, biased, and unrealistic!

If you really want to know what 'the South' is like, you should watch Deliverance....

:)
:eek:

I'm moving! NOW! Heh!

That's very distressing. Family should be where you feel the most comfortable and safe, not something to be avoided. You're welcome to join us this Christmas if you like! :D

Or he can come to my house for Christmas! My family has gotten pretty used to me bringing people they don't know home for the holidays, because I'm not going to leave anyone who doesn't have anyone else to spend them with sitting around alone. Of course, it's prompted my mother more than once to ask things like, "Do you have any normal friends?"

Last year, the big problem was that I brought a Muslim home for the holidays and my mom was freaking out when she found out he doesn't eat pork ("Duh, Mom! *MUSLIM*!" hehe) because she always makes ham for Christmas dinner. I had to explain to her that it was ok, that he wouldn't be offended if *we* ate ham, and I'd just make him some chicken to eat instead. That pacified her, hehe.

Or he can come to my house for Christmas! My family has gotten pretty used to me bringing people they don't know home for the holidays, because I'm not going to leave anyone who doesn't have anyone else to spend them with sitting around alone. Of course, it's prompted my mother more than once to ask things like, "Do you have any normal friends?"

Last year, the big problem was that I brought a Muslim home for the holidays and my mom was freaking out when she found out he doesn't eat pork ("Duh, Mom! *MUSLIM*!" hehe) because she always makes ham for Christmas dinner. I had to explain to her that it was ok, that he wouldn't be offended if *we* ate ham, and I'd just make him some chicken to eat instead. That pacified her, hehe.

Not strictly on topic, but my most fondly remembered Christmas dinner, was with my ex-fiancee, who had Indian family...

Chicken curry, papadams and onion bhajis for christmas dinner... yum. :)

:eek:

I'm moving! NOW! Heh!

You shore do got a pretty mouth there.

Not strictly on topic, but my most fondly remembered Christmas dinner, was with my ex-fiancee, who had Indian family...

Chicken curry, papadams and onion bhajis for christmas dinner... yum. :)

Rather like some of the "traditional" Thanksgiving and Xmas dinners I've had over here in Japan. :)

There was a great "Ernie/Piranah Club" comic strip a few years after I moved over here where Effie fixes Uncle Sid a "nice traditional Christmas dinner" and he gets all excited. She then serves up fugu (puffer fish), and asks "What, you never had Christmas in Yokohama?" (Sorry, that won't make much sense if you haven't read/aren't familiar with the comic strip series.)

I thought that was Easter? (Named after Eostre, Germanic fertility goddess.)

Of course, I'm happy to help destroy that one with chocolate and rabbits.
mmm... chocolates...

Regarding the original post: Very interesting. I had been under the impression that the 12 Days of Christmas were meant to mark the time between the birth of Jesus (more specifically, the appearance of the star) and the arrival of the Magi. That's how it had been explained to me.

She then serves up fugu (puffer fish), and asks "What, you never had Christmas in Yokohama?"
Mmmm.... fugu...

Bonus Daily Show addition to this thread:

Bottle's super-covert agents have uncovered how deep the Plot Against Christmas really goes! It turns out that this radical anti-Christian hate agenda can be traced all the way back to....THE PURITANS!

That's right, the first white Christian settlers who founded the famous early colonies were also a part of the War On Christmas(tm). They banned all Christmas festivals as "unseemly." CAN YOU IMAGINE?!

What could be "unseemly" about Sears sticking "Merry Christmas" stickers on every last blender in the store? How could it be "unseemly" for car dealerships to use the celebration of Christ's birth to distract customers from the fine print on a lease agreement? I think it is the height of seemly-ness for department store salespeople to say "Merry Christmas" while they pressure you to buy a third pair of shoes.

It just goes to show that the Godless Librul Anti-American Lesbogay Abortion Doctor Porno Alliance of Secularism has got its claws into just about everything.And i say unto thee, verily,
F*CK YEAH!!!!!!!!

One of the best episodes ever.

I like Jon's "announcement" for Bill O'Reilly, especially.

*bows*

... if Christmas is a purely religious holiday, most Christians are going to end up having to work on it (not this year, since it's on a weekend, but most years), right alongside those who aren't Christian.
Not if the ACLU has anything to say about it. They came to the defense of two women who were fired for refusing to work on Christmas.

Oops, but I forgot, the ACLU is a Christian-hating, Christmas-killing, Baby-Jeebus-Aborting organization of Satanic Communists. And nothing they do can ever be good, no matter how many Christians benefit from their activities.

It's pretty sweet, usually. The boss usually puts out some food, you get time and a half or double, hardly anyone shows up and you can be pretty half assed about how you help them. You have an excuse not to go to your relatives soulsucking gathering. I dig it.
Over 50% of New Zealand Adults work on Christmas but this might include Women in the Kitchen which although it is work it should'nt be counted as a 'job'.

Over 50% of New Zealand Adults work on Christmas but this might include Women in the Kitchen which although it is work it should'nt be counted as a 'job'.
Hmmm...I think I have a 10 1/2 foot pole around here somewhere...

Newsbreak ....
Colbert on Com Cent just started the new episode off with "pre-Christian Christianity" of the holiday in his Campaign Against Humbuggery, or whatever they call it.
Got the mistletoe .... got the tree ... got the stockings ... elves and Santa Claus.
Most of the important stuff, anyway.

Can't wait til America's War on Easter!

i am just pissed they are using tax money for this shit :headbang: .

it should just difer from person to person, hell like 90%+ celebrate chrismas anyway. but here in canada we dont bitch about this crap!

Pfft. We're AMERICANS. Have we given you any reason to believe we care about the cultures in other nations?

You damn Americans :p

Christmas always has been a festival of Christ being born and thats how it is.

You damn Americans :p

Christmas always has been a festival of Christ being born and thats how it is.

no its just an execuse to get drunk and get free crap from your family.......but what i hate is then trying to turn a christmass tree into a holiday tree:rolleyes:

Mommy, why do we celebrate Christmas if we aren't Christians?
The short and true answer is because we luv capitalism! :rolleyes:

Actually, I am thinking of printing out this thread and taping it to the locker next to mine at work. The guy crossed out "Xmas" in my memo and wrote Christmas over it, then wrote Amen at the end. Which I promptly changed to RAmen, and crossed out Christmas and wrote FlyingSpaghettiMonstermas.
FSM makes everything cooler.

I'm agnostic, but my family's Christian. Meh, I just celebrate it for the food and the two-week holiday.

I see nothing in there about orgies. Saturnalia definitely included orgies dammit. It was a fricking fertility holiday.

Mmmm.... fugu...

Yep. The good old fugu nabe is a sure to please wintertime delight.

I grow tired of the commercialization and secularization of Christmas. Over the last few years, Christmas has begun to evolve into something that I would not at all care to observe, were it not for the fact that it was created, whether anyone cares to acknowledge it or not, to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. Every year, Santa comes to the malls earlier and earlier, around here it is two weeks before Thanksgiving nowadays, (I remember when it was two weeks after Thanksgiving) and every year, the holiday has lost more and more of it's meaning, and picked up in its' place the crassness of rapacious self-interest. And now, it has come to pass that some places of business cannot even call it by its' name anymore, having substituted it with such "non offensive" P.C. terms as "Happy Holidays" for a simple heartfelt wish of Merry Christmas. And now, this season, comes the Holiday Tree(?). It, apparently, cannot even be called a Christmas tree anymore, for fear that someone might be offended. And then there is the school who decided to hold a Christmas (sorry, a "Holiday") play with the secular favorite "Silent Night" being re-written therein, completely excising it of any religious meaning that it once had. Dish TV now has a holiday music channel that apparently cannot bring itself to play any Christmas song that mentions Christ by name anywhere within its' lyrics. I don't know about you, but 2 hours of "Frosty The Snowman" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" does not seem to me to be in any way an adequate substitute. Why is it that Jesus Christ, and his message of love and forgiveness for all so seems to threaten people some 2,000 years after His death to the point that we cannot be allowed to call Christmas by its' name and must substitute generic "non-offensive" names in its' place?

In the year 2000, a poll taken by NSRI and ARIS shows that 76.5% of every man woman and child in the U.S. had declared themselves to be a Christian. http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html Why is it that we must take our holiday and strip it of any religious overtones for an obviously insecure and petty 13.2% of the population merely so that they can feel more comfortable in their celebration of what is undeniably a Christian religious holiday? Christmas is and always shall be the day of the birth of Christ, in spite what other fanciful things or replacement ideals you decide to substitute for it. If you want to celebrate Christmas in your own home in the secular way that makes you comfortable, go for it. More power to you. Celebrate Hannukah. Celebrate Kwaanza, even. Whatever you like. But at its' core, Christmas is about Christ. Do not take that from us. And don't expect those of us who know what it is truly about to walk on eggshells for your sake. If someone wishes me "Happy Holidays!", why, I will wish them "Merry Christmas!" in return, with all the ebullient good wishes that that statement deserves. We do not have a "Holiday Tree" in out home. We have a Christmas Tree. And any place of business from this day forward that attempts to force its' substitute secular wishes upon me shall not receive my business. And if everyone of that 76.5 % of America follows suit, we might be able to reverse this commercialization and secularization of this most sacred of holidays, and reclaim it as our own.

Merry Christmas to you all.

In the year 2000, a poll taken by NSRI and ARIS shows that 76.5% of every man woman and child in the U.S. had declared themselves to be a Christian. http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html Why is it that we must take our holiday and strip it of any religious overtones for an obviously insecure and petty 13.2% of the population merely so that they can feel more comfortable in their celebration of what is undeniably a Christian religious holiday?

You should not - but you should also not forbid them to celebrate their holiday either, nor celebrate yours with government money.

As mentioned repeatedly already: Christmas originally had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ; who was not even born in december (if at all). That alone makes saying that it is undeniably a christian religious holiday shortsighted. Add to that that many cultures have end of year celebrations - you yourself may even celebrate the new year - and claiming Christianity somehow has a monopoly on festivities on these days becomes more and more silly.

So: feel free to celebrate Christmas in whatever way you want. Remember Jesus and praise his name if you desire. Spend time with family and friends giving presents and lighting fireworks if your tastes run that way. Dance naked in the moonlight around the bonfire if you deem it appropiate. But please, do not demand others do exactly the same.

1) You should not - but you should also not forbid them to celebrate their holiday either, nor celebrate yours with government money.

As mentioned repeatedly already: 2) Christmas originally had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ; who was not even born in december (if at all). That alone makes saying that it is undeniably a christian religious holiday shortsighted. Add to that that many cultures have end of year celebrations - you yourself may even celebrate the new year - and claiming Christianity somehow has a monopoly on festivities on these days becomes more and more silly.

So: feel free to celebrate Christmas in whatever way you want. Remember Jesus and praise his name if you desire. Spend time with family and friends giving presents and lighting fireworks if your tastes run that way. Dance naked in the moonlight around the bonfire if you deem it appropiate. 3)But please, do not demand others do exactly the same.

1) I don't. I don't get paid for having Christmas off. Do you?
2) Welcome to Revisionist History, 101. Prove it. In the west, Christmas has been celebrated on Dec. 25th since 354 A.D. I repeat, undeniably a Christian holiday. http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html or...... http://www.allthingschristmas.com/traditions.html#origins
3) I never said that. Did I not say that people are free to celebrate Christmas in whatever way they see fit in their own homes? What part of that was unclear?

1) I don't. I don't get paid for having Christmas off. Do you?

Actually yes. But I was thinking more of public schools who used taxpayers money to teach children they should worship Christ in this time of year.

2) Welcome to Revisionist History, 101. Prove it. In the west, Christmas has been celebrated on Dec. 25th since 354 A.D. I repeat, undeniably a Christian holiday. http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html

Just read the rest of this topic - as well as the article you referenced ;)
This one is also an easy read and on a slightly more reliable source: http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/index.html
(though of course the "reliabillity" of internetsites is debateable)

Then look up "historical Jesus".

Irony: Christmas took over Pagan celebrations, just like many people are claiming secularists are taking over Christmas now. What comes around...

3) I never said that. Did I not say that people are free to celebrate Christmas in whatever way they see fit in their own homes? What part of that was unclear?

Apologies. I interpreted your post as meaning you disliked the idea of non-christian celebrations.

Actually yes. But I was thinking more of public schools who used taxpayers money to teach children they should worship Christ in this time of year.

One would think, then, that you should have a moral problem of accepting federal pay for a holiday that you obviously do not believe in.

And yes, I did read the rest of the article. Both of them. The second one clearly states that it was created by the Catholic Church to be in direct competition with the other pagan holidays celebrated during mid-winter in that time. The one thing I do agree with your assessment was that it is indeed ironic that secularists are taking over a holiday that was in essence, a Christian counterpoint to the mid-winter pagan holidays of that age.

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?

One would think, then, that you should have a moral problem of accepting federal pay for a holiday that you obviously do not believe in.

And yes, I did read the rest of the article. Both of them. The second one clearly states that it was created by the Catholic Church to be in direct competition with the other pagan holidays celebrated during mid-winter in that time. The one thing I do agree with your assessment was that it is indeed ironic that secularists are taking over a holiday that was in essence, a Christian counterpoint to the mid-winter pagan holidays of that age.

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?

Hmm... So stealing a car, fitting it with parts stolen from other cars and painting it with new colour makes it yours? Sorry, but that's the exact same logic you use in your argument.

Feel free to argue, althought I propably won't be back to answer as I rarely roam these forums.

I for one, do not agree, Myotisinia. While the Catholic church created the institution of Christmas in 354, it almost certainly was celebrated differently. Also, almost all of the traditions associated with Christmas come from various pagan celebrations of the winter solstice.

You say that none of the pagan traditions have endured? Well, I hope you have a very happy Midwinter Blót

Oh, and merry Christmas and happy holidays of course. ;)

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?

I agree! Mistreatment (oppression) of women and non-christians and non-heteros, suppression of free thought, burning of people on bonfires because they used herbs to cure diseases rather than praying, mass murder in the name of this God character.. You are indeed right, it's all been going quite well for the Holy See. Until modern days, that is. Tough!

One would think, then, that you should have a moral problem of accepting federal pay for a holiday that you obviously do not believe in.

And yes, I did read the rest of the article. Both of them. The second one clearly states that it was created by the Catholic Church to be in direct competition with the other pagan holidays celebrated during mid-winter in that time. The one thing I do agree with your assessment was that it is indeed ironic that secularists are taking over a holiday that was in essence, a Christian counterpoint to the mid-winter pagan holidays of that age.

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?
You cant really make a good counterpoint by stealing everyone elses idea's

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?
So let me get this straight: Christianity decides to steal the popular winter-celebratory rituals of other cultures, and then when those rituals turn out to be very popular among Christians it is a sign that CHRISTMAS is "working"? Sorry, but it sounds more like Christmas was boring the snot out of people until the Church started ripping off material from other cultures.

Also, if you really think that the Christmas Americans celebrate today bears anything but a cursory resemblence to the Christianity practiced 1600 years ago...well, if you really believe that, then I have a piece of the True Cross I'd like to sell you.

Christmas always has been a festival of Christ being born and thats how it is.
Which is why Christmas, the celebration of Christ being born, is not celebrated on Christ's birthday. Logically.

Hmmm...I think I have a 10 1/2 foot pole around here somewhere...

Yeah, so they all say.;)

Wow. A lot of rather wild tangents being drawn there, and none of them not even coming close to addressing the core issue. I find that a lot with some folks who prefer to sling mud instead of addressing issues. Throw a lot of it, and it'll stick somewhere. Have fun. At least Squeaky Rat stayed on topic.

However, Christmas has endured in its' present form for over 1,600 years. Much, much longer than the pagan holidays that indirectly provided Christmas with its' origins. Something must be working there, wouldn't you agree?

Well... the tree, the lights in the tree, the getting together with family and friends, the sharing of gifts, the man in the flying vehicle, the singing of songs and the christmas dinner were already a part of the festivities before Jesus came along. Christianity changed the theme of the songs, quite probably added the star on top of the tree and added the whole stable thingy. In the USA the traditional figure of father Christmas was in addition blended with that of Saint Nicholas of Myra - resulting in a pagan symbol with a Christian name: Santa Clause.

In other words: while Christianity added various things (and removed others) the core of Christmas as we still celebrate it today is definately older than Christ.

In other words: while Christianity added various things (and removed others) the core of Christmas as we still celebrate it today is definately older than Christ.

The core? Hardly. Christ is the reason for the season. Period. The pagan holidays have nought but added a bit of color to the larger picture. But whatever you all celebrate and in whatever you way you choose to celebrate it, I hope you all have a very happy one. :)

The kids are done with school for a few weeks, everyone has at least a couple days of vacation from work.

Food.
Fun.
Family.

It's an excuse to be happy, to give the kids some new toys, to enjoy the company of our relatives, to feast. That is what makes the holiday.

The background and history take secondary roles, though it can make an interesting read. But there's no reason not to enjoy the holiday. Heck, if you don't want to call it Christmas, you can just say you were celebrating Jimmy Buffett's birthday.


I was secretly confused as to why Christians worshiped Jesus when Santa was the one who brought the presents.
I have to admit that question made me smile. Everyone worshiping Santa for presents :)

The core? Hardly. Christ is the reason for the season. Period. The pagan holidays have nought but added a bit of color to the larger picture. But whatever you all celebrate and in whatever you way you choose to celebrate it, I hope you all have a very happy one. :)

"Reason for the season"? What bull! Midwinter has been a time of festivities since long before Christ had anything to do with it.

And what is this talk of pagan holidays "adding" anything to it? They were celebrated first, if anything, Christianity simply took them and changed the name of the holiday. It's like when they changed the name of Candlestick Park (where the Giants used to play and where the 49ers still do) in San Francisco to "3com" park. The only thing that's different is the name. All that Christianity added was its name, little manger scenes, and a star, angel, or dove on top of the tree.

So, a happy Midwinter Blot to you, Myo. (For the record, I don't actually celebrate Midwinter Blot very heavily, though I know people at my church who do).

Sorry, but it sounds more like Christmas was boring the snot out of people until the Church started ripping off material from other cultures.

Sorry, not borring per se, I've read that it was more of a transition. Kinda "Hey, your celebration has trees, WE'VE got trees too! And we have salvation! How's that for a deal?"

Still, a lot of it is probably due to tradition. Since people had always put up trees, they put them up for Christmas as well. As Terry Pratchett has so wonderfully noted, you can't change tradition, you just add on to it, even when you have no idea WHY you're doing it in the first place. ;)

Which is why Christmas, the celebration of Christ being born, is not celebrated on Christ's birthday. Logically.

Well it is hard to celebrate someone's birthday when they won't tell you when it is :)

Ah, finally an answer to the question:
http://devilspanties.keenspot.com/d/20020108.html

Yes. Also, you're probably a godless Communist. HE'S A WITCH!!! STONE HIM!!



Pfft. We're AMERICANS. Have we given you any reason to believe we care about the cultures in other nations?

There are other nations with other cultures in the world?!?!:eek:

Ah, finally an answer to the question:
http://devilspanties.keenspot.com/d/20020108.html

Bill Hicks goodness.

I've been traveling a lot lately. I was over in Australia during Easter. It was interesting to note they celebrate Easter the same way we do; commemorating the death and resurrection of Jesus by telling our children a GIANT BUNNY RABBIT... left chocolate eggs in the night.

Now, I wonder why we're fucked up as a race?

Where do you get this shit from? Why those two things? Why not "Goldfish left LINCOLN LOGS in your sock drawer"? As long as we're making shit up, go hog wild. At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back crawling across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it!

*young irish boy's voice* "Look mummy, i woke up today and there was a Lincoln Log in me sock drawer!"

"That's the story of JESUS!

Who comes up with this shit? I've read the Bible, I can't find the words "bunny" or "chocolate" anywhere in that fucking book. Do you all have different books of the bible than I do?

The The pagan holidays have nought but added a bit of color to the larger picture. :)
You've got it backwards. Do you have a problem contemplating temporal mechanics? The "christians" STOLE the ceremony and hype from other cultures, and then window-dressed it.
For example, what is the shape of the egyptian ankh?

The core? Hardly. Christ is the reason for the season. Period. The pagan holidays have nought but added a bit of color to the larger picture. But whatever you all celebrate and in whatever you way you choose to celebrate it, I hope you all have a very happy one. :)
Lol at this point Yeah right

Bet you more kids know what santa looks like ... where he lives ... who he worked with then jesus

Lol sorry but you are just puting window dressing on our fun pagen holliday

For example, what is the shape of the egyptian ankh?

Hehe.

I've got an ankh necklace. People always try to label it as a Celtic cross (even though the two are actually very different shapes). Then when I explain what it actually is, they stare at me.

The core? Hardly. Christ is the reason for the season. Period.

The core to you != the core to other people.

Please try to separate your own personal opinions and beliefs (ie. Christ is the reason to celebrate around this time of year) from the reality - which is that many people have differing beliefs and have just as much reason to celebrate.

The core to you != the core to other people.

Please try to separate your own personal opinions and beliefs (ie. Christ is the reason to celebrate around this time of year) from the reality - which is that many people have differing beliefs and have just as much reason to celebrate.
Reminds me of a phraze I have picked up
I dont know if it was said by someone else or just me

"Thoes that can not understand their oppontents position can not effectivly debate it"

You have to at least TRY to understand that not everyone is a coppy of you

So many people on all sides of the fence seem to think that people only "say" they disagree

But they still somewhere deep down feel that it is just a trick that deep down others all at least think somewhat simmilarly

(if that makes any sence ... posting drunk is intresting)

Hehe.

I've got an ankh necklace. People always try to label it as a Celtic cross (even though the two are actually very different shapes). Then when I explain what it actually is, they stare at me.
What's even more bizarre is that they both befell the same fate for just about the same reason, and too often people have no idea what the original shapes were. Or their functions, for that matter.

So they're not around to reply anymore, too bad.
:(

An awesome post was here


Whoa man, didn't know so much about this christmas thingie

I know i'm probably coming into this discussion late, but I think Christmas has lost all religious significance, and degenerated wholly into a consumer holiday. I think the tradition of Jesus' birth has evolved into the tradition of presents and corporate greed. Don't get me wrong, there is still people out there who celebrate christmas for the religious reasons, and corporations aren't all to blame.

Here's an answer I pose to the question of this thread. How do you explain to a child, that because you the parent are athiest or non-christian, and have imposed your views on your child, who is too young to officially make up his/her mind, that they should feel left out from the other kids who recieve massive amts of presents.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating christmas in a different way christians do, you don't need to be religious to enjoy a good meal in the company of family & to give gifts to eachother

You Bloody Atheists can go to work and miss on a Holiday for all i care.

Someone's not paying attention...:rolleyes:

A whole load of crap was here
big rant how christmass is the holiest for christian hollidays blabla

I think you should read the OP

2) Welcome to Revisionist History, 101. Prove it. In the west, Christmas has been celebrated on Dec. 25th since 354 A.D. I repeat, undeniably a Christian holiday. http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html or...... http://www.allthingschristmas.com/traditions.html#origins

Reading your *OWN* link:

In the Western world, the birthday of Jesus Christ has been celebrated on December 25th since AD 354, replacing an earlier date of January 6th. The Christians had by then appropriated many pagan festivals and traditions of the season, that were practiced in many parts of the Middle East and Europe, as a means of stamping them out.

They replaced the hollidays of another religion with their own to wipe out the other, older religions :rolleyes:

So yea, it *HAS* to be a christian holliday! It was meant to oppress other religions, that proves it alright! :rolleyes:

Which is why Christmas, the celebration of Christ being born, is not celebrated on Christ's birthday. Logically.

Jesus, the Hippie, Christ was above logic you INFIDEL! :p

The core? Hardly. Christ is the reason for the season. Period. The pagan holidays have nought but added a bit of color to the larger picture. But whatever you all celebrate and in whatever you way you choose to celebrate it, I hope you all have a very happy one. :)

How can christ be the reason for a season of hollidays that predate him?:confused:

How can christ be the reason for a season of hollidays that predate him?:confused:

Does it matter that there's a bunch of holidays predating that one? The Winter Solstice is hot temporal real estate for big festivites, a little overlap shouldn't do any harm between faiths, extinct or current.

Christmas replaced the Roman festival of light and was celebrated at about the same time for economical reasons... 25th of December is as holy as June 6th, if you ask me, but it's an occasion to get people together, which is always good.

Yes. Also, you're probably a godless Communist. HE'S A WITCH!!! STONE HIM!!



Pfft. We're AMERICANS. Have we given you any reason to believe we care about the cultures in other nations?
Ahem. Careful, I might just start tossing stones at you in return.
~A witch;)

So they're not around to reply anymore, too bad.
:(
And time ZOOMS by and they still don't reply.

Here's an answer I pose to the question of this thread. How do you explain to a child, that because you the parent are athiest or non-christian, and have imposed your views on your child, who is too young to officially make up his/her mind, that they should feel left out from the other kids who recieve massive amts of presents.
Oh, I get it...the most important factor a parent should consider when deciding which religious tradition (if any) for their children is "which religion will provide the best excuse to buy Junior an Xbox360?"

When you put it that way, it makes me far more concerned about the CHRISTIAN children who are, as you put it, "too young to officially make up their minds." Aren't Christians basically using material gifts to buy the loyalty of little children who don't know any better? "Be a Christian and you get lots of presents! But if you're a Jew or an icky atheists you won't get any at all, because none of them like Jesus!"

Personally, if I were trying to do the right thing by kids, I would rear them with no official adherance to any religion. I would teach them about as many world religions and secular life-philosophies as I possibly could and let them make up their own mind, rather than deciding to impose my religion on a mind that is too young to decide for itself. And I would give the little grubbers presents whenever the hell I felt like it, including on days that Christians co-opted as their holidays.

Hehe.

I've got an ankh necklace. People always try to label it as a Celtic cross (even though the two are actually very different shapes). Then when I explain what it actually is, they stare at me.

I have an Ankh tattoo. It is incredible how many people are ignorant of even what the shape 'is'.... let alone what it 'means'.

And, by that... I just mean the 'trivial' meaning... that's before you get into the 'sacred feminine' image it portrays...