NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, this is going to be an interesting question; it is mainly directed towards the Americans in this forum.

We now know that there we no WMD's in Iraq - the US has invaded and nothing found; the documents relating to the sourcing of Uranium were later found to be false.

So lets assume that we go along the Straussian vision of geolopolitical change in the middle east - spreading freedom and democracy.

Lets assume that GWB is running in a presidental election, Iraq war hasn't occured - as part of his foreign policy he annouces that he is going to be tough on dictators in the middle east, and it could mean the invasion of Iraq, toppling of the regime and installing a democratically elected government.

Lets assume in the same speech he also says that several thousand soldiers may lose their lives, but he concludes that the lives lost would not be in vein as the value of a democratic middle east would far exceed the possible loses.

With this surprisingly honest politician, would you be happy to vote for this individual? if you are a GWB supporter, would you be still be happy with supporting him in this endevour.

I am not going to judge you, or turn this into a GWB vs. who ever the heck the other candidate, I'm just interested in what you views are in respects to the idea of using force to spread democracy and whether you see the sacrifice as being something be proud of.

Still wouldn't support him. Besides my strong disagreements with Bush over social and economic issues, I don't think that sending thousands of Americans and Iraqis to their graves is the best way to bring about democracy. Just look at the trouble Iraq is having now. Besides, Hussein was hardly the worst dictator on the planet; I, for one, would vocally support an invasion of Sudan with the intent to stop the genocidal warfare in Darfur.

It wouldn't change my vote... I didn't vote for W to begin with.

But I hope that others would see the oxymoronic in Democracy by force.

It wouldn't change my vote... I didn't vote for W to begin with.

But I hope that others would see the oxymoronic in Democracy by force.

Ok, I'll use the euphemism used during the Cold war, "supporting groups that have goals which are alligned with the goals of the United States" :)

Still wouldn't support him. Besides my strong disagreements with Bush over social and economic issues, I don't think that sending thousands of Americans and Iraqis to their graves is the best way to bring about democracy. Just look at the trouble Iraq is having now. Besides, Hussein was hardly the worst dictator on the planet; I, for one, would vocally support an invasion of Sudan with the intent to stop the genocidal warfare in Darfur.

True; but in reference to Iraq; its on the assumption that you didn't know what the outcome was; nothing has happened, all you know is that you *might* lose some soldiers.

True; but in reference to Iraq; its on the assumption that you didn't know what the outcome was; nothing has happened, all you know is that you *might* lose some soldiers.

Those were the promises from before the war. I don't think that anyone doubted that the US would score a swift military victory; however, there were apparently early indicators that the occupation would be unpleasant.

I'll admit that the war would not be as repugnant had Bush not lied. However, there are still better targets.

Nader!

An interesting idea, first assuming there would be a politician that is this honest;) this would definitely sway my vote towards them. But then there comes into play the possible compulsory democracy part. How democratic is it really to go in and force a new government on somebody? On the other side of the coin, if there is such injustice going on, can we sit back and watch idly? As a personal belief, I don't think it would be in the spirit of democracy to take over a government by force and replace it with our own "alignment." ;) However, our democratic nation is founded on, "certain inalienable rights," among which are, "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." If a nation is infringing on others rights to live, and be free and happy, do we take action? Do we try the political approach and apply to the UN for sympathy? Do we underhandedly support rebel groups trying to overthrow the government?:D There isn't a clear answer, I think, but I believe we should take other approaches other than try to militarily apply our way of thinking on another government. However, there may have come a time in all this that I would support going to war. The line is thin indeed that separates these concepts, going to war for a cause and going to war preemptly.:cool:

No, I wouldn't vote for him. I hate Bush for a lot more than just Iraq.

Also, if we really wanted to get serious about overthrowing dictatorships, we'd set our sights on North Korea.

Those were the promises from before the war. I don't think that anyone doubted that the US would score a swift military victory; however, there were apparently early indicators that the occupation would be unpleasant.

I'll admit that the war would not be as repugnant had Bush not lied. However, there are still better targets.

True, I could think of several; North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Burma etc. I'm sure there are some more countries who can be added to this list.

So sad that this sort of democracy is forced onto a people in the same way that that which the great western horde fear the most is forced onto the world lest they become the infidel.

Can we not all live side by side and be proud of ourselves for what we are? Do we need a world police force.

Lest we become a land of Team America Supporters (F#@& Yeah, Here to save the mother f#@&in day yeah)

Tough call. Eliminating tyrants like Hussein is noble and necessary if we consider all people equal, but I'd rather the UN or other allies side with us if they aren't an immidiate threat.

With this surprisingly honest politician, would you be happy to vote for this individual?

I would require more explanations than just that speech. Reasons to pick Iraq and not another country for instance, arguments that support his claims and so on. If he can provide all that - yes, I would consider voting for him. But lets hear what the other parties say too ;)

I would require more explanations than just that speech. Reasons to pick Iraq and not another country for instance, arguments that support his claims and so on. If he can provide all that - yes, I would consider voting for him. But lets hear what the other parties say too ;)

Meh, and considering there is only one other party in the US - point being?

If it were MMP, then it would be interesting, you would have 4+ parties going for prime minister, you would have a president with SFA (Sweet Fuck All) powers - there would no longer be the 'boring as bat shit' fight between the two major parties; The extreme left could legitimately setup and support a more social democratic party, the religious nuts from the Republicans could finally get a dose of reality when they realise that the 'moral majority' is actually a microscopic minority that could collectively fit into a telephone booth.

It would be fabulous :)

Only problem, we need a revolution - anyone willing to form a 'coalition of the willing' to do a bit of regime change in the US? democratise the United States :P

Meh, and considering there is only one other party in the US - point being?

If it were MMP, then it would be interesting, you would have 4+ parties going for prime minister, you would have a president with SFA (Sweet Fuck All) powers - there would no longer be the 'boring as bat shit' fight between the two major parties; The extreme left could legitimately setup and support a more social democratic party, the religious nuts from the Republicans could finally get a dose of reality when they realise that the 'moral majority' is actually a microscopic minority that could collectively fit into a telephone booth.

It would be fabulous :)

Only problem, we need a revolution - anyone willing to form a 'coalition of the willing' to do a bit of regime change in the US? democratise the United States :P
Fuck Yeah! Let's do it! I'll grab my coat..