NationStates Jolt Archive

For a long time I wondered about the "war on terror" and how the Neo-Conservative and Islamic Fundamentalist movements were basically the same, only having cosmetic differences. Well now I know why, the genesis of both of those movements came from a common source, an obscure 1960's American political philosopher named Leo Strauss. Strauss taught his followers that in order for a society to prosper the induvidualist urges of people must be supressed and subjugated to shared moral codes set down by what he saw as the two great pillars of society, religion and the "myth of the state" (basically patriotic mythos such as "America saved everyone's asses in WWII") He also stressed that these moral codes must be upheld at all costs, even if the state must continually lie to its people and commit acts of infamy behind their backs. Strauss never acted upon his teachings but his followers certainly did, the main body of his followers were the American conservatives who eventually founded the Neo-Conservative movement (Dick Cheny, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz etc.) But, a small faction of his followers were Egyptian and Saudi Muslims who planned to apply Strauss' teachings to Muslim countrys and create Islamist states in the place of the new republics and kingdoms that had sprung up in the 50's and 60's. These people went back to the middle east and founded the Islamic Fundamentalist movement and were the mentors to Osama bin Laden and his followers. So there you have it, the common source of the two biggest fanatical political forces in our world today, proving that fundamentaly they are identical, they just disagree on which hat to wear.

So I now know who to go back and kill when I build my time machine.

Thanks!

Pah

Ah

Grahs

Well I guess all you have to do is ignore 40+ years of tiny little complexities, and NeoCons and Islamic Terrorists are the same! :rolleyes:

Hey, I thought the plan was to blame everything on Bush.

Basically the father of modern fascism then?

Watching SBS, are we? :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

I'd like to see some sources to back up this connection you've made between the origins of neo-conservatism and Islamic terrorism. From a brief overview, Wikipedea;s article on Strauss says nothing about it.

Before we blame everything on Leo Strauss (who I agree is a Troskyist A-hole) can we at least say that Wahhabism had something to do with Islamic Fundamentalism. Just a little, at least.

Before we blame everything on Leo Strauss (who I agree is a Troskyist A-hole) can we at least say that Wahhabism had something to do with Islamic Fundamentalism. Just a little, at least.

Well I would say that modern Islamic Fundamentalism is mainly a cross of Straussism and Wahhabism.

Funny that a man of jewish provenance would entertain such notions, given that he had retro-sight of WW 2. Yet then again, he may have been merely expressing an idea that he himself was ideologically detached from.

I'd like to see some sources to back up this connection you've made between the origins of neo-conservatism and Islamic terrorism. From a brief overview, Wikipedea;s article on Strauss says nothing about it.
So Strauss was the type of Trostkyist who formed the foundation of what later became Neo-Conservatism. You accept that much, right?

Have you heard of Sayyid Qutb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutb)? He's an Islamist Philosopher who's is one of the foundations of modern Islamism.
AFAIK, Qutb was a disciple of Strauss.

EDIT: Actually, this could be disputed, although the parallels between the two philosophies are obvious.

Funny that a man of jewish provenance would entertain such notions, given that he had retro-sight of WW 2. Yet then again, he may have been merely expressing an idea that he himself was ideologically detached from.

Perhaps, as this is what Machiavelli did; look at the bad reputation he's gotten.

A humorous representation of what the OP is talking about: A Very Moral Country (http://crap.jinwicked.com/?comic=86).

I'd like to see some sources to back up this connection you've made between the origins of neo-conservatism and Islamic terrorism. From a brief overview, Wikipedea;s article on Strauss says nothing about it.

Shhhh! Dude ... yer killin' my buzz!

Now I know I'm not the only one who flicks over to the ABC when nothing else is on...

EDIT: Actually, this could be disputed, although the parallels between the two philosophies are obvious.Parallels between philosophies and being a disciple of someone are pretty different. Anyway, it's entirely possible that there are ideological similarities; i just don't think it is quite this blatant.

Parallels between philosophies and being a disciple of someone are pretty different. Anyway, it's entirely possible that there are ideological similarities; i just don't think it is quite this blatant.
Well, there we have the common origins then.

There is a BBC documentary called "The Power of Nightmares" about this. I didn't watch it, but it screened on Australian TV last night and I assume that was the origin of this thread.

I'll see what I can find out.

The Power of Nightmares was a really good series. It’s certainly a different take on today's policies…

For those who’re interested, this is the official BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm). The entire series can be downloaded here (http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares).

They both pray to the same god :D

The common origin of the Neo-Conservative and Islamic Fundamentalist movements = US in Lebanon in the 1980s
Am I right?

Well, there we have the common origins then.

There is a BBC documentary called "The Power of Nightmares" about this. I didn't watch it, but it screened on Australian TV last night and I assume that was the origin of this thread.

I'll see what I can find out.
I watched the first episode and it was very good. Not sure if I take it seriously though. It seems to sensational to be true.

AFAIK, Qutb was a disciple of Strauss.
Rubbish. Qutb was a disciple of the Indian Islamist philosopher Maulana Maududi. The origins of the Islamist movements lie in the destruction of the last Muslim empires- the Ottoman and the Mogul, and the Wahhabi brand of it goes back even further, into the 18 century. There isn't and there couldn't possibly be any "common origin" to a Western movement such as neoconservatism, centered around Western democratic system, and the Islamism/Islamic fundamentalism, which is a revivalist movement centered on essentially medieval motivations such as religious piety and tribal pride.

So, Ayman Zawahiri and Osama Bin Laden are actually secret co-chairmen of the hidden wing of PNAC?

And South Waziristan is actually the summer retreat of PNAC?

And PNAC actually was founded in the early 1980s in Afghanistan?

Troskyist in that they both want to spread an ideology (Trosky wanted to spread communism, Stalin wanted a communist state, which is sort of an oxymoron but whatever, stalin wins and Trotsky gets axed. Really, he gets killed by a pick ax.)

See Bush talking about spread democracy. Much like trying to spread communism. And remember, neo-conservatives were not conservatives from the start (hence neo.) They had been on the Left, and once the New Left challenged the Vietnam War and the establishment in the 1960's, they switched to the right and became neo-conservatives.