Germany 1930: Who'd you vote for?
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 04:14
Inspired by the "Are you a Nazi?" Thread, I'll start this as a discussion about the way the Nazis got into power.
Most of you would know that the majority of Germans never voted for Hitler, and here I will list the alternatives they had.
The Weimar Republic was the first democracy on German soil (although the democratic movement had a lot of history), and it was plagued by various troubles.
It was born out of the defeat of WWI, and it never managed to disassociate itself from that. It didn't have the strong protection against anti-democratic movements today's Federal Republic has. The economy was hard hit by various crises, and to an extent also the repayments to the Allies set in the Treaty of Versailles.
And finally: It didn't have a 5% rule. Today to get seats in the German Parliament a party needs to get at least 5% of the vote - that rule didn't exist in Weimar, meaning that many more little parties were present in the parliament, and the process was constantly unstable. There were other constitutional troubles as well.
Here is the election history of Weimar:
http://facultystaff.vwc.edu/~dgraf/weim.htm
Some things to consider
The Economy:
After the chaotic time after the war (Bavaria for example actually seceeded to form the Bavarian Socialist Republic, only to be attacked and destroyed by Right-Wing Militias, most of which were returned soldiers) the economy had actually looked pretty good for a while.
But in 1930 things weren't too good. America's collapse and the subsequent end of cheap loans from there, coupled with a good old neo-liberal economic policy of not spending destroyed the country.
The Chancellors:
Because the Parliament was so full with little parties, no chancellor had been able to get a proper stable majority for years. They started to rule by Presidential Decree, and using emergency laws.
The Incumbent:
President von Hindenburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg) (very popular, but rather senile) appointed Heinrich Brüning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Br%C3%BCning) just a few weeks ago after an SPD-led Coalition Government broke apart - and who called for the Reichstag (the parliament) to be dissolved after his finance bill (more cuts in government spending) failed. He should later be known as the "Hunger Chancellor".
The Options:
Social Democrats - at the time a little more Socialist than today, I can't find their 1930 program though...but it would be along the line of welfare payments and so on.
Communists - Argue that a democratic republic is bullshit, bash Nazis and get bashed in return on the streets.
NSDAP - Fascist party, also arguing some racial policies (theoretical foundations here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism)). Their actual party program is here (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol4/1708-ps.htm).
Centre Party (Zentrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_%28Germany%29#In_the_Weimar_Republic)) - a primarily Catholic Conservative Party with a hang towards pragmatism (meaning that they were quite happy to reject democracy if they felt like it helped).
DNVP - Patriotic Conservatives with a strong hang towards Militarism. It wanted to restore the monarchy and considered the Weimar Republic to be a bad thing (Dolchstoßlegende (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchsto%C3%9Flegende)). A year after the elections they will go into coalition with the NSDAP, giving the right-wing the majority.
DVP - A party of the rich industrialists, it used to be in coalition with the SPD, but split over a welfare-issue. Nationalist/"Patriotic".
DDP - Probably the most democratic party available, this is a left-wing, but fairly liberal party. They just went into an alliance with a right-wing corporatist party though. It is an intellectual party of "jews and professors".
Try to make a realistic choice: The parliament has been a talkfest for a long time, the economy is dead and the non-democratic parties promise firm and decisive action.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 04:17
I would most likely vote for the DNVP, despite its conservative tendencies, mainly due to its support of the monarchy. Alternatively, the ZPD or the DVP. Was the DNVP the only party to offer monarchy as a solution?
Eutrusca
07-12-2005, 04:17
"Germany 1930: Who'd you vote for?"
Hey! I might not be as young as most on here, but I definitely was NOT around in 1930! :p
The South Islands
07-12-2005, 04:17
You want honest?
I would have voted for Hitler (providing I had none of the knowlege I have today).
He promised relief. I would have baught into it.
*waits to be labeled a nazi*
Forfania Gottesleugner
07-12-2005, 04:19
I feel like this post is almost impossible to reply to with a full stomach. When I watch the USA (my country) collapse into a seemingly endless struggle for food in the depths of poverty I'll tell you if I am ready to go the path of facism.
Psychotic Mongooses
07-12-2005, 04:20
I would have voted for the party that promised me a job in all honesty. People are fickle.
Pepe Dominguez
07-12-2005, 04:22
NSDAP, of course! NSDAP 4evr.. :)
The Atlantian islands
07-12-2005, 04:22
Probably DNVP or DVP..those seem the most appealing to me.
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 04:23
Was the DNVP the only party to offer monarchy as a solution?
I think it was the only major party to advocate it. There was another conservative party, the KVP, but that was more on authoritarian dictatorship than actual monarchy.
Maybe this is spoiling it a bit, but these were the results of the 1930 election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_1930
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 04:24
I think it was the only major party to advocate it. There was another conservative party, the KVP, but that was more on authoritarian dictatorship than actual monarchy.
Maybe this is spoiling it a bit, but these were the results of the 1930 election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_1930
Then I would refrain from voting. The mere fact that the NSDAP was not entirely compatible with the DNVP would dissuade me from following the latter.
Pennterra
07-12-2005, 04:34
DDP. I'm an intellectual, and would have been such in 1930. If the Nazis still gained power, then I'd probably be screwed- "You voted for the Jews? We're going to have to ask you to come with us..."
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 04:37
DDP. I'm an intellectual, and would have been such in 1930. If the Nazis still gained power, then I'd probably be screwed- "You voted for the Jews? We're going to have to ask you to come with us..."
Heh I am somewhat intellectual too, and I can't say I'd agree with any of the parties proposed agendas. I like the DNVP's strive for a return to Monarchy, yet beyond that, it doesn't attract me.
Marrakech II
07-12-2005, 04:42
"Germany 1930: Who'd you vote for?"
Hey! I might not be as young as most on here, but I definitely was NOT around in 1930! :p
Damn close though. ;)
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 05:50
Myself, I actually find it difficult to say.
It depends probably on my age too. I might've been more DNVP if I had been older and fought in WWI, but if I hadn't...well, I guess there is a fair chance that I could've joined one of the radical groups (KPD or NSDAP).
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 05:53
The DNVP had a certain prestige and attraction to it. Something Hitler knew how to extort, yet it was nonetheless somewhat representative of old Germany and its values. This may have led me to vote for it, yet again, not sure. My own philosophical/political beliefs could hinder me from doing so. Just because a party supports monarchy doesn't mean it can deliver it.
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 06:13
"jews and professors" FOREVER! DDP FOR LIFE!
http://www.jpfo.org/
Warning to all members. Buy guns now. Lots of them. We (will) made (make) the Uzi. Take that. Hey Germans, why don't you just go drink beer and eat some more sausage. Don't you know your country was taken over by landed aristocratic Prussians from the North? Don't listen to those fools. Catholic south, ignore filthy Northerners. Rhineland, throw off fascists. You don't need corporatism. Besides, we will be able to keep all the profits for ourselves... Muhahahahahaha! Except for our caring intellectual non-imperialist government.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 06:14
Too bad Prussia was the largest region in Germany at the time then, eh? :p
Pennterra
07-12-2005, 06:24
"jews and professors" FOREVER! DDP FOR LIFE!
http://www.jpfo.org/
Warning to all members. Buy guns now. Lots of them. We (will) made (make) the Uzi. Take that. Hey Germans, why don't you just go drink beer and eat some more sausage. Don't you know your country was taken over by landed aristocratic Prussians from the North? Don't listen to those fools. Catholic south, ignore filthy Northerners. Rhineland, throw off fascists. You don't need corporatism. Besides, we will be able to keep all the profits for ourselves... Muhahahahahaha! Except for our caring intellectual non-imperialist government.
Umm... Hitler's support came from Southern Germany. Telling them to cast off Prussia's influence is telling them to turn to fascism and others. Bad idea.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 06:27
Umm... Hitler's support came from Southern Germany. Telling them to cast off Prussia's influence is telling them to turn to fascism and others. Bad idea.
Not true. Hitler's electorate was mostly Northern protestant Germans. Southern Germans were mostly catholic, and thus remained loyal to the BVP (Bayerische Volkspartei) or the ZDP.
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 06:30
Man, me and the professors got in a time machine and went back BEFORE Hitler, to a time before Bismarck. I say to the Munich people, what you doing hosting Hitler? Hmm? What's with that? You used to be happy singing drinking sausage Oktoberfest people. Now look at you. Shame. Shame on all of you. Get some pikes from Switzerland and poke their aristocratic cavalry brains out. POKE! :sniper:
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 06:32
Man, me and the professors got in a time machine and went back BEFORE Hitler, to a time before Bismarck. I say to the Munich people, what you doing hosting Hitler? Hmm? What's with that? You used to be happy singing drinking sausage Oktoberfest people. Now look at you. Shame. Shame on all of you. Get some pikes from Switzerland and poke their aristocratic cavalry brains out. POKE! :sniper:
So tell me, how much weed does it take exactly to get this high ? :p
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 06:35
Not true. Hitler's electorate was mostly Northern protestant Germans. Southern Germans were mostly catholic, and thus remained loyal to the BVP (Bayerische Volkspartei) or the ZDP.
Well, initially it was Ernst Röhm who was helping Hitler along, and that was all in Bavaria.
Ludendorff was the only one who kept marching towards the lines of armed policemen when Hitler and all the others ran...
But anyways, that was way before 1930.
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 06:36
You used to be happy singing drinking sausage Oktoberfest people. Now look at you. Shame. Shame on all of you. Get some pikes from Switzerland and poke their aristocratic cavalry brains out. POKE! :sniper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 06:36
Well, initially it was Ernst Röhm who was helping Hitler along, and that was all in Bavaria.
Ludendorff was the only one who kept marching towards the lines of armed policemen when Hitler and all the others ran...
But anyways, that was way before 1930.
Ludendorff was one of my favourite characters when studying Weimar Germany. He had a certain eccentricity about him. He also ran in the elections I believe, and got something like 1% of the vote? :p
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 06:38
Which was less realistic... the time machine or the defeating wave after wave of well trained Prussian armies with neutral Swiss ancient Halberdier pikes? With sausage. Oops. I've pulled things off topic. :sniper: :sniper:
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 06:42
Ludendorff was one of my favourite characters when studying Weimar Germany. He had a certain eccentricity about him.
He was a proto-fascist and a dictator. But I guess that's besides the point.
He also ran in the elections I believe, and got something like 1% of the vote? :p
Well, considering that he'd pretty much lost his mind, that's still pretty good.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 06:43
He was a proto-fascist and a dictator. But I guess that's besides the point.
Well, considering that he'd pretty much lost his mind, that's still pretty good.
I hardly admired him. He just made for good comedy. He was really a caricature of the senile old war dog.
Boonytopia
07-12-2005, 06:56
As the grandson of jews, I don't think it would have been for the Nazis. I'd say probably the DDP.
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 06:58
DDP! C'mon people, stop being fascists! This is why we have the problems we have today. I know NS people, most of you are Social Dems. Vote for the SPD then! But don't be a fascist!
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:00
DDP! C'mon people, stop being fascists! This is why we have the problems we have today. I know NS people, most of you are Social Dems. Vote for the SPD then! But don't be a fascist!
The point of the thread is to project yourself back into the 1930s under the circumstances laid out by Neu Leonstein. By this time the SPD had proven to be rather weak and flimsy. Its best to avoid retrospective thinking.
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 07:05
I suppose many people would not have wanted to vote for Socialists, and the SPD were socialists back then. Also (I don't really remember) the SPD got the most seats in the Wiemar Republic and probably was blamed for the bad stuff. But are you ALL convinced about fascism? Liberals? We still are around. Sure Germany industrialized under heavy government involvement but... still. Liberalism anyone? It's really cool, there's rights and stuff. Please. :(
Kinda Sensible people
07-12-2005, 07:06
DDP. They seem the most socially libertarian without being too radically far left. Besides which, an intellectual party is better than the Nazi's.
Skibereen
07-12-2005, 07:06
I would like to say the DDP, but I hate psuedo-intellectuals who play at some imagined elitism because of Academic experience--when the term Academic is applied as a prefix it means the uselessness or pointlessness of it in a real world setting--soI would have been DNVP----I would have liked to said DDP, but I know me.
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 07:08
Exactly. You truly are Kinda Sensible. We can be shot together then.:( DDP forever. Yea...
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:09
DDP. They seem the most socially libertarian without being too radically far left. Besides which, an intellectual party is better than the Nazi's.
Too bad there was never an intellectual party supporting the return of the Monarchy. Well, there was the DNVP, yet it was more capitalist and conservative than anything else. And there were organisations like the Kreisau Circle, yet they were not parties per se. I doubt, given the circumstances though, that I'd vote the DDP, given that as a student I would be in danger of not finding a job if Germany did not reform economically. On the other hand, I may have noticed that the SPD did help considerably in bettering the economy, and thus simply not vote at all. My intellectual predilections may have dissuaded me from supporting any of the parties,
BigAPharmaceutiqa Isle
07-12-2005, 07:09
The problem with this of course is that there was no, "What election? What's with all these stupid elections? I'm so pissed... Now which of these parties will stop this whole moronic voting thing... oh! Here's one..."
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 07:09
I would have liked to said DDP, but I know me.
You get a cookie for being honest.
Kinda Sensible people
07-12-2005, 07:12
Too bad there was never an intellectual party supporting the return of the Monarchy. Well, there was the DNVP, yet it was more capitalist and conservative than anything else. And there were organisations like the Kreisau Circle, yet they were not parties per se. I doubt, given the circumstances though, that I'd vote the DDP, given that as a student I would be in danger of not finding a job if Germany did not reform economically. On the other hand, I may have noticed that the SPD did help considerably in bettering the economy, and thus simply not vote at all.
Why exactly would a return to monarchy be a good thing for Germany at that point, though? The Monarchy would have been a huge step back. Besides which, Monarchs had been killing Intellectuals who got too out of hand for centuries. It's hard to get grants when you're six feet under.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:12
I would like to say the DDP, but I hate psuedo-intellectuals who play at some imagined elitism because of Academic experience--when the term Academic is applied as a prefix it means the uselessness or pointlessness of it in a real world setting--soI would have been DNVP----I would have liked to said DDP, but I know me.
The DNVP was hardly malevolent though. Its alliance with the NSDAP was unfortunate, yet it itself as a party was not -and I shy away normally from using this word- evil.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:13
Why exactly would a return to monarchy be a good thing for Germany at that point, though? The Monarchy would have been a huge step back. Besides which, Monarchs had been killing Intellectuals who got too out of hand for centuries. It's hard to get grants when you're six feet under.
Not exactly. Many aristocrats were intellectuals. It depends on whose side you were really. Germany was more open to intellectual tradition. And, given how well the 2nd Reich fared when compared to Weimar or the 3rd Reich, its hardly a step back. The alternatives being Communist dictatorship or fascism, I think I would prefer Monarchy.
The argument that the 2nd Reich entered a devastating war (one which it nearly won though) can be countered by saying that the Nazi party impliedly stated that it was going to restore Germany's pride and reverse its military defeat. It basically stated that it wanted war.
Kinda Sensible people
07-12-2005, 07:19
Not exactly. Many aristocrats were intellectuals. It depends on whose side you were really. Germany was more open to intellectual tradition. And, given how well the 2nd Reich fared when compared to Weimar or the 3rd Reich, its hardly a step back. The alternatives being Communist dictatorship or fascism, I think I would prefer Monarchy.
A quick glance reveals the successes of the 2nd Reich.
- Joins the rest of Europe in clamping down on growing liberalism in Europe with the Treaty of Vienna.
- "Monarcy" where the real ruler was Otto Von Bismarck
- Lose the chance of building alliance with Russia, and go for a poor last place Ottoman empire as the concilation prize.
- Fight a war that utterly destroys infrastructure and kills a generation.
The 2nd Reich seems to have been real successful to me.
Hullepupp
07-12-2005, 07:20
I think anyone who cares for his own life has to vote NSDAP...
sadly but true
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:21
A quick glance reveals the successes of the 2nd Reich.
- Joins the rest of Europe in clamping down on growing liberalism in Europe with the Treaty of Vienna.
- "Monarcy" where the real ruler was Otto Von Bismarck
- Lose the chance of building alliance with Russia, and go for a poor last place Ottoman empire as the concilation prize.
- Fight a war that utterly destroys infrastructure and kills a generation.
The 2nd Reich seems to have been real successful to me.
It still managed to defeat Russia. American interference ultimately cost Germany the war. Had Germany won the war, it would be the dominant force globally. In addition, one must also consider Germany's successes pre-WW 1. The 2nd Reich enjoyed a powerful economy and high education levels. Even if it did enter the Great War, it was very powerful in its time.
Tderjeckistan
07-12-2005, 07:24
Evidently,
KPD (Communists) .
Bandiera rossa, bandiera rossa...
(But that's off topic I guess :P)
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 07:26
"Monarcy" where the real ruler was Otto Von Bismarck
He would certainly disagree. Bismarck never did anything without agreement from the Emperor. Indeed, he regularly started throwing tantrums whenever that agreement wasn't forthcoming.
http://www.blacks.veriovps.co.uk/html/HYQEWG11.html
By the way, did you know that in 1913 there were 60,000 Uni-Students in Germany, and only 9000 in Britain? :eek:
Kinda Sensible people
07-12-2005, 07:26
It still managed to defeat Russia. American interference ultimately cost Germany the war. Had Germany won the war, it would be the dominant force globally. In addition, one must also consider Germany's successes pre-WW 1. The 2nd Reich enjoyed a powerful economy and high education levels. Even if it did enter the Great War, it was very powerful in its time.
Do you mean beat Russia in World War I (because in that case, you missed this little thing called the "Communist Rebellion" that was sparked by extreme distaste towards the Tzar)? Or do you mean the... Erm... Russo-watchamacallum war (In which case I'll point out that the rest of Europe was backing up Germany?
The early Weimar republic had a strong economy, it was only when the United States investors pulled their money out of German business because of the Great Depression that it's economy tanked (which would have happened under a monarch too).
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:28
Do you mean beat Russia in World War I (because in that case, you missed this little thing called the "Communist Rebellion" that was sparked by extreme distaste towards the Tzar)? Or do you mean the... Erm... Russo-watchamacallum war (In which case I'll point out that the rest of Europe was backing up Germany?
The early Weimar republic had a strong economy, it was only when the United States investors pulled their money out of German business because of the Great Depression that it's economy tanked (which would have happened under a monarch too).
Even at its maximum capacity, the Weimar economy never quite topped the imperial economy at its height.
I meant the former war btw. At this point Russia was in chaos. Germany could have wreaked havoc.
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 07:30
American interference ultimately cost Germany the war.
I would dispute that very strongly, but since it's not the topic I won't - merely point you to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWI#German_Spring_Offensive_of_1918).
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:32
I would dispute that very strongly, but since it's not the topic I won't - merely point you to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWI#German_Spring_Offensive_of_1918).
Well there is an argument that Germany and Britain would eventually come to an agreement and that power would balance in Europe without any further losses for either side. A cessez-le-feu of a sort. This would have been ideal, as it would have prevented WW 2 and saved Germany much trouble.
Kinda Sensible people
07-12-2005, 07:32
Even at its maximum capacity, the Weimar economy never quite topped the imperial economy at its height.
I meant the former war btw. At this point Russia was in chaos. Germany could have wreaked havoc.
Well yes. It's not exactly difficult to defeat an anarchic state at war. There is this sorta lack of an army that tends to come with a lack of government.
As to economics, it isn't really a suprise. The Weimar republic was functioning with extreme dissadvantages (it sorta had this war to rebuild from) and didn't exist as long as the 2nd Reich did before it hit it's (inevitable) economic downturn. Under the NSP it probablly never would have reached a higher economic status all the same, i suppose.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:34
Well yes. It's not exactly difficult to defeat an anarchic state at war. There is this sorta lack of an army that tends to come with a lack of government.
As to economics, it isn't really a suprise. The Weimar republic was functioning with extreme dissadvantages (it sorta had this war to rebuild from) and didn't exist as long as the 2nd Reich did before it hit it's (inevitable) economic downturn. Under the NSP it probablly never would have reached a higher economic status all the same, i suppose.
Indeed, and this is why, in the context of this period, I would be inclined to support a return to monarchy. I am not a typical monarchist per se, as my ideas concerning government are far closer to those advocated by Plato in the Republic, yet amongst several choices of government available at the time, it is the one I'd prefer.
Callisdrun
07-12-2005, 07:42
You listed the Social Democrats in the Party descriptions, but I don't see them in the poll. I would have voted for them.
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 07:44
You listed the Social Democrats in the Party descriptions, but I don't see them in the poll. I would have voted for them.
SPD = Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:45
SPD = Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands
Funny, back then we'd have preferred them to be elected, now we cringe at the thought of influence they will have in the Merkel government.
Falhaar2
07-12-2005, 07:49
Indeed, and this is why, in the context of this period, I would be inclined to support a return to monarchy. I am not a typical monarchist per se, as my ideas concerning government are far closer to those advocated by Plato in the Republic, yet amongst several choices of government available at the time, it is the one I'd prefer. Plato=Stalin
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 07:50
Plato=Stalin
Depends on how you interpret him. I have my own ideas, thus I said based on his views. Seeing as I am more of an elitist/monarchist, I have adapted them. The base logic is still there though. And I would never call Plato Stalin. He was more into a form of utopian society than anything else. Stalin was a one-man show.
Callisdrun
07-12-2005, 07:57
SPD = Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands
Oh. I didn't know that, sorry.
Falhaar2
07-12-2005, 07:59
Depends on how you interpret him. I have my own ideas, thus I said based on his views. Seeing as I am more of an elitist/monarchist, I have adapted them. The base logic is still there though. And I would never call Plato Stalin. He was more into a form of utopian society than anything else. Stalin was a one-man show. Certainly Plato envisioned a "utopian" state, unfortunately his definition of "Utopia" was essentially Stalinist. With the State controlling nearly everything, the dissolution of private property, eradiction of democracy and sexual contact between males and females being tightly regulated. Essentially Plato thought that everyone would be happy purely on the basis of "helping the state". He had some good ideas about ethics, but his "Utopia" sounds more like a nightmare to me.
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 08:01
Certainly Plato envisioned a "utopian" state, unfortunately his definition of "Utopia" was essentially Stalinist. With the State controlling nearly everything, the dissolution of private property, eradiction of democracy and sexual contact between males and females being tightly regulated. Essentially Plato thought that everyone would be happy purely on the basis of "helping the state". He had some good ideas about ethics, but his "Utopia" sounds more like a nightmare to me.
Oh yes, here I will agree. He went way too far with the state control. I would go as far as arguing that an intellectual elite is an excellent form of aristocratic government (aristocracy in its true sense, not in the sense of hereditary nobles), yet I do not believe the State should interfere with the life of its citizens. It should only go as far as ensuring their needs are catered for. Thus, I am into a freer state than what he wanted.
Remember, Plato lived thousands of years before he saw how such a state worked in practice. I am sure he would have revised his theories had he seen it.
Neu Leonstein
07-12-2005, 08:05
Oh. I didn't know that, sorry.
You learn something new everyday.
Not knowing something is only bad if you don't ask questions. So don't appologise.
Falhaar2
07-12-2005, 08:36
Oh yes, here I will agree. He went way too far with the state control. I would go as far as arguing that an intellectual elite is an excellent form of aristocratic government (aristocracy in its true sense, not in the sense of hereditary nobles), yet I do not believe the State should interfere with the life of its citizens. It should only go as far as ensuring their needs are catered for. Thus, I am into a freer state than what he wanted.
Remember, Plato lived thousands of years before he saw how such a state worked in practice. I am sure he would have revised his theories had he seen it. True, good point.
So would Marx :p
Europa Maxima
07-12-2005, 08:38
True, good point.
So would Marx :p
Marx is probably turning in his grave right now :p His intentions were good enough though. I will refrain from entering Nietzsche's views on intentions and actions into the discussion, for Marx's sake :p
One day, when I get my act together, I will attempt to synthesise and put on paper my own views on the utopian government, loosely based on Plato.
Cabra West
07-12-2005, 10:06
Based on the little knowledge about that period that I have, I would have voted for the SPD.
Hullepupp
07-12-2005, 10:48
Based on the little knowledge about that period that I have, I would have voted for the SPD.
This has to be you Death sentence at this time
Cabra West
07-12-2005, 10:51
This has to be you Death sentence at this time
It's been established in another thread that I wouldn't have survived the Nazi era one way or another, anyway. :D
I'd like to say SPD, but if they truly had lost all credibility, then probably KPD. It's very difficult to say retrospectively.
Probably the KPD...but that's a tough one, given the Stalinist leanings beginning to take shape. I'd be more inclined to do so if Rosa Luxemburg was still in charge.
(Are people voting NSDAP as a joke?)
Harlesburg
07-12-2005, 11:55
I always seem to get 92% Hitler so yeah......
Fleckenstein
07-12-2005, 12:55
(Are people voting NSDAP as a joke?)
In my opinion, half of those votes are jokes and the other half are people who realize that they can be brainwashed.
Pantycellen
07-12-2005, 13:10
its irelivent for me because at the time i'd have probably died in the fighting in the revolution.
Celestial Kingdom
07-12-2005, 14:06
I guess I would have voted SPD...from tradition. But the points about being hungry and unemployed make me think twice. Sometimes I question myself if I would have made a career in the third reich:confused:
I'd probably ended in some of the US-tribunals 1948, lol
I don't think I would have voted then, as I don't vote now. I would probably just plodded along with one eye on the news, and when it looked like the 'get out of the country while you still can' ship was about to sail, I'd have gone.
Ahh sweet, comforting hindsight...
DDP - Probably the most democratic party available, this is a left-wing, but fairly liberal party. They just went into an alliance with a right-wing corporatist party though. It is an intellectual party of "jews and professors".
I'm a left-wing Jewish intellectual, so this seems like a natural choice.
Freudotopia
07-12-2005, 15:12
This sounds like Nazi apollogism. Are you a Nazi? I generally shoot Nazis in the face with high-caliber weapons. I personally wouldn't have voted for Hitler because I would have done my research. At the first hint of anti-Semitisim, I would have voted against Hitler, fled the country, gone to America to preach war on Germany, joined an armored division, and DRIVEN A TANK UP THE NAZIS' COLLECTIVE ASS!!!
Ewige Treue Dem Kaiser ;)
-Magdha-
07-12-2005, 18:06
I'd vote for whichever party was the most moderate. In times of crisis, voting for either an extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing party is a bad idea.
Europaland
07-12-2005, 18:15
Although they were too close to Stalin I would have voted KPD as they were the most radical and anti-fascist party to choose from.
-Magdha-
07-12-2005, 18:15
Although they were too close to Stalin I would have voted KPD as they were the most radical and anti-fascist choice.
IMO, radicals are never a good choice in a time of crisis.
Europaland
07-12-2005, 18:21
IMO, radicals are never a good choice in a time of crisis.
To many people in Germany it seemed as if the economic policies of the Weimar government weren't working so if it wasn't the Communists it was likely to be the Nazis who appeared as the only alternative and I know which party I would rather have in power.
Strasse II
07-12-2005, 18:24
NSDAP
DVNP
DVP
Centre Party
I would have to choose from one of those parties. I am not selfish hence I am more concerned for the well-being of my nation rather then myself.
-Magdha-
07-12-2005, 18:24
To many people in Germany it seemed as if the economic policies of the Weimar government weren't working so if it wasn't the Communists it was likely to be the Nazis who appeared as the only alternative and I know which party I would rather have in power.
Electing an extreme left-wing party would alienate people on the right, and electing an extreme right-wing party would alienate people on the left. IMO, the best thing to do would be to elect the most moderate party possible, or whichever one could resolve the issues the most peacefully.
King Graham IV
07-12-2005, 18:45
I would have voted the Nazis in...they were the only party that were offering a solution to the major problem i had, unemployment and myself not being able to put food on the table for my family. The thought of getting closer to USSR after we had beaten them in the first world war was unappealing so the only alternative was to vote for the Nazi party who were promising reforms and who were the strongest party in the Reichstag. Plus that Hitler guy was a damn good speaker...