NationStates Jolt Archive

I see a lot of people arguing, but not a whole lot of listening. By en large, people are horrible at conducting mutually beneficial discussions where both parties (or more) come away knowing something new.

I'm not saying I'm innocent, but I do try to listen to my opponent and read their links and then respons directly and specifically to their points, rather than moving on to the next thing that I think might make me "win."

Maybe it depends on who you argue with.

I've learned things from Cat-Tribe. And had good discussions with Sinuhue, Drunk Commies, Vittos, and a few others.

Maybe it depends on who you argue with.

I've learned things from Cat-Tribe. And had good discussions with Sinuhue, Drunk Commies, Vittos, and a few others.

But not me...sigh. :D

Because it's entertaining in between my writing of serious things.

But not me...sigh. :D
At least I learn how you think.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they didn't learn something.

At least I learn how you think.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they didn't learn something.

Hmmm, any insights into how I think? Sometimes I don't know myself.

Because it's entertaining in between my writing of serious things.
I'd like to say that's the case with me as well--problem is, I never seem to get around to writing those serious things.:D

Intellectual masochism.

Hmmm, any insights into how I think? Sometimes I don't know myself.
Well, for starters, you hate Bush. I think you hated him before he was elected the first time.

I'd like to say that's the case with me as well--problem is, I never seem to get around to writing those serious things.:D

Having them be dead-lined obligations tends to ensure their getting done.

I also argue in other places. NS is not my whole life, you know.

Well, for starters, you hate Bush. I think you hated him before he was elected the first time.

Not true! I didn't care at all about Bush before he was elected. My hatred has steadily grown due to a steady flow of evidence and circumstance!

Not true! I didn't care at all about Bush before he was elected. My hatred has steadily grown due to a steady flow of evidence and circumstance!
So who did you vote for in the first Bush Jr. election?

Mental masturbation, really.

So who did you vote for in the first Bush Jr. election?

No one. I had to work all election day that day. Not that I was particularly motivated to vote that time around.

I corrected my error in 2004 (fat lot of good it did.)

Because I'm here. I argue everywhere, with everyone. I like to argue, debate, run my mouth. Good, clean, wholesome fun for the whole family.

And if I didn't do this, I'd have nothing to think about but how much I hate being at work. (<sigh> :) )

Well, for starters, you hate Bush. I think you hated him before he was elected the first time.

I know I did, but then I had to live under his gubernatorial lunacy as well.

I know I did, but then I had to live under his gubernatorial lunacy as well.
I hated him before the election, too. I also hated Bush I, and I strongly disliked Reagan. And I've feared and loathed Cheney for many years. But I like Kissinger. So what does that say about these other bastards? ;)

Having them be dead-lined obligations tends to ensure their getting done.

if only that were true.

with me, that is. i never doubted yours to get done.

I do it primarily for the benefit of the 'third party reader,' rather than my opponent. Since none of us know each other, no one is ever going to back down on any sort of ideological debate, and expecting them to do so is pretty ridiculous: instead people will resort to making incredibly absurd arguments or they'll start ignoring my [or someone else's] main points altogether. When this starts to happen, or when my opponent forces me to repeat himself by restating his premise ["We should help other people because we can." "Why?" "Because its the right thing to do." "I thought there was no definite right and wrong? If there isn't, then what makes this right?" "Because there's no reason not to."], that's when I bow out.

I hated him before the election, too. I also hated Bush I, and I strongly disliked Reagan. And I've feared and loathed Cheney for many years. But I like Kissinger. So what does that say about these other bastards? ;)

Strangely enough, I always liked Kissinger too. Maybe it's the beautifully orchestrated bombing of Cambodia, all the while maintaining plausable deniability. Never have I seen a more blatantly obvious war criminal go so publicly untouched. Rumsfeild must be seething with jealousy. :D

I know I did, but then I had to live under his gubernatorial lunacy as well.

Having a politician that you really hate is not all bad. At least they bring some focus to news items.

It's far worse when all the leaders are just meh.

Strangely enough, I always liked Kissinger too. Maybe it's the beautifully orchestrated bombing of Cambodia, all the while maintaining plausable deniability. Never have I seen a more blatantly obvious war criminal go so publicly untouched. Rumsfeild must be seething with jealousy. :D

It's the voice. Everyone knows he's a sex crazed overweight midget with enough supressed anger to make hitler look like a pansy. But because he talks like a 45 played at 33, somehow it just seems profound.

It's the voice. Everyone knows he's a sex crazed overweight midget with enough supressed anger to make hitler look like a pansy. But because he talks like a 45 played at 33, somehow it just seems profound.

He sounds just like I imagine Einstein would...if Einstein were profoundly stoned.

Strangely enough, I always liked Kissinger too. Maybe it's the beautifully orchestrated bombing of Cambodia, all the while maintaining plausable deniability. Never have I seen a more blatantly obvious war criminal go so publicly untouched. Rumsfeild must be seething with jealousy. :D
Well Kissinger is only untouched here--he has to be careful where he travels, lest the police snatch him up and extradite him to someplace with a grudge.

And I don't know if Rumsfeld is seething anymore--he seems to be losing it a bit, though, like he's not all there anymore. Like he might just drop into a song and dance number in front of the press one day.

I see a lot of people arguing, but not a whole lot of listening. By en large, people are horrible at conducting mutually beneficial discussions where both parties (or more) come away knowing something new.

I'm not saying I'm innocent, but I do try to listen to my opponent and read their links and then respons directly and specifically to their points, rather than moving on to the next thing that I think might make me "win."

You know what they say:

Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. You may win, but you're still retarded.

Strangely enough, I always liked Kissinger too. Maybe it's the beautifully orchestrated bombing of Cambodia, all the while maintaining plausable deniability. Never have I seen a more blatantly obvious war criminal go so publicly untouched. Rumsfeild must be seething with jealousy. :D
I have a worthless, amorphous, 18 degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of social non-connection to Kissinger -- my mother used to be the assistant to a certain NYC bigwig who was a friend of Dr. K's, and she used to chat with the man himself on the phone all the time. She reports that he is at the very least considerably less hoity-toity in his attitude than anyone in the Bush adminstration. He'll bomb you to shit for a dollar, but he won't sneer while doing it. :D

And I think it says something pretty interesting that, in his few public appearances in the past five years, he has consistently criticized Bush policies as wrong-headed. As I like to say, when the man who thought it was a good idea to bomb Cambodia says your policies are counter-productive -- boy, your policies are counter-productive.

Debate (not argument) takes skill and a good sense of wit.

However, I'd say that sometimes people need to calm down about certain issues, before they develop ulcers. I will direct you to look at my sig to understand my meaning...and please follow its instructions...

Why do you argue here on NS?

Usually to take a break from work, do something mindless.

Although lately, I have to ask myself, why do I bother..lol ;)

I actually don't argue, what I do is build little pyramids devoted to the worship of my monumental ego.

Well Kissinger is only untouched here--he has to be careful where he travels, lest the police snatch him up and extradite him to someplace with a grudge.

And I don't know if Rumsfeld is seething anymore--he seems to be losing it a bit, though, like he's not all there anymore. Like he might just drop into a song and dance number in front of the press one day.
Since when was Rumsfeld all anywhere?

I should add that I argue here because I have low blood pressure, and this is therapeutic. :D

I argue on NS for the same reason I post/read NS, simply for the Shits and Giggles factor. The few times I have had a serious argument, I mainly did so just to take the piss out of the other person, and have sometimes even gone counter to what I really believe.

I argue because I'm a sadistic sob who likes to piss people off, and then annoy them until I get ignored. My manners seem to get in the way though, but I'm working on it!

There are three things I do on NS.

1) Socialise. Lingerie threads, sex topics...yum yum yum! Highly entertaining, and very educational!

2) Debate. I believe something, you believe something else, we discuss, either my belief is strengthened, or I change my opinion slightly. Like on gun control. What was I thinking? Thank you for talking sense into me people!

3) Argue. Yeah, I do it. With people who seem incapable of understanding what I actually said, and try to make it into something else. That drives me crazy, and I can't let it go. I want to make it clear. I argue with people who say stupid shit...unfounded claims based on racism, sexism, and so on. If these people refuse to actually form a coherent argument, or provide sources, I drop it eventually...especially when it turns flamish. There is always the hope, however, that someone making wild claims will be moved by my questions to examine their beliefs, and make more informed decisions...whether they end up agreeing with me or not.

What is the difference between debate and argue? I guess it depends on how emotional you get. But as Itz said, I do this in real life too...arguing about politics just gets me off. What can I say?

I do it primarily for the benefit of the 'third party reader,' rather than my opponent. Since none of us know each other, no one is ever going to back down on any sort of ideological debate, ...*snip*
That's not true. I've backed down, and I've seen people back down or change their minds PLENTY here on NS. The most recent would be the Heron Marked Warriors deciding that he no longer believed that the victim of rape is sometimes responsible. I backed down on gun legislation...but fuck you, I'm still supporting smoking bans! People 'back down' all the time...not because someone out-argued them, but because they have, through debate, thought more about the subject, and found that they needed to make some revisions to their beliefs.

That's not true. I've backed down, and I've seen people back down or change their minds PLENTY here on NS. The most recent would be the Heron Marked Warriors deciding that he no longer believed that the victim of rape is sometimes responsible. I backed down on gun legislation...but fuck you, I'm still supporting smoking bans! People 'back down' all the time...not because someone out-argued them, but because they have, through debate, thought more about the subject, and found that they needed to make some revisions to their beliefs.
Well said. I joined this forum in the first place because I wanted to learn what others are thinking about various issues. I'm very much aware that my ideas are based on what I know, and that I don't know everything.

I backed down on gun legislation...but fuck you, I'm still supporting smoking bans!

Don't you start with me.

Why not?

I NEVER argue here! EVER! I can't believe you even have the audacity to say such a thing! Why, I oughta...

I think i argue because im a stuburn self minded freak that likes to prove people right. :headbang: I argue just tp say im right and your wrong! :eek: :sniper:

Why not?

Because.

And oh my god, but you have a lot of posts!

Because.

And oh my god, but you have a lot of posts!
Eutrusca beat me a few days ago :(

I NEVER argue here! EVER! I can't believe you even have the audacity to say such a thing! Why, I oughta...

:p

Eutrusca beat me a few days ago :(

Yeah, but he's not only been around since the creation of teh interwebs. He actually attended the Crucifixion. I think he was selling popcorn.

Eutrusca beat me a few days ago :(

That wasn't nice of him. Since he had the edge since he has legs and you don't.

Eutrusca beat me a few days ago :(
Yeah! Eutrusca rul3z! :D

Yeah, but he's not only been around since the creation of teh interwebs. He actually attended the Crucifixion. I think he was selling popcorn.
[ Pelts Cluichstan with stale popcorn! ] :D

[ Pelts Cluichstan with stale popcorn! ] :D

Ouch! Hey, that stuff's not stale anymore! It's petrified! :p

[ Pelts Cluichstan with stale popcorn! ] :D

Popcorn is teh yum.

Ouch! Hey, that stuff's not stale anymore! It's petrified! :p
Oh. You mean kinda like your metal processes? :D

:eek:

Eutrusca types with his toes! Just so he can sell popcorn to stoners! :eek:

Oh. You mean kinda like your metal processes? :D

My metal processes? :p

Score one for the Cluich! :D

Where I live, everyone's on the same page, and that's cool because I don't have to watch what I say or grit my teeth at overheard conversation when I go get a buritto. However, I don't really get the other side of the argument. So I come here to hear the other side. It's why I most often go after the nature of the argument itself rather than do a lot of links and research. I like the researchers, because I learn a whole lot from them, but I'm not one of them.

I'll spend more time going after how someone put the argument together because I'm trying to get at why they think the way they do. A friend growing up used to do that to everyone he met, challenging everything that they say they believed by agressively comparing it to other things they've said. It was maddening but also forced you to learn a little about your own thought process. I try to do that here. Compared to him, I'm an amature.

I get most frustrated when people slip and slide what they say, like we can't look back at what they've said, because I start to feel that they aren't really participating, just fucking around and have then wasted my time taking them seriously.

I learn a great deal here and mostly through debate.

:eek:

Eutrusca types with his toes! Just so he can sell popcorn to stoners! :eek:
LOL! I love when they get the munchies! :D

I see a lot of people arguing, but not a whole lot of listening. By en large, people are horrible at conducting mutually beneficial discussions where both parties (or more) come away knowing something new.
I debate/argue here because I am a lazy prat and procrastination is an excuse not to be productive.

My metal processes? :p

Score one for the Cluich! :D
So I dropped an "n." Sue me! :D

So I dropped an "n." Sue me! :D

'Tis a sign of the "n" times!

Repent!

'Tis a sign of the "n" times!

Repent!
[ dons sack-cloth, covers self with ashes, and chants "Mea culpa" while beating self with cat-oh-nine-tails! ] Happy now? :p

[ dons sack-cloth, covers self with ashes, and chants "Mea culpa" while beating self with cat-oh-nine-tails! ] Happy now? :p
Not really... Could you lose the shoes, perhaps?

Because I'm so very alone...