NationStates Jolt Archive

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,388652,00.html

Berlin's Silence for Washington

By Matthias Gebauer in Berlin

Gerhard Schröder's government had detailed information on how the CIA operated in Europe -- and said nothing. The lower echelons of the administration even co-operated actively. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is likely to expect the same silent complicity from the new chancellor, Angela Merkel.



DDP
Planespotters, hobby airplane photographers, say they noticed an increase in the number of flights at the Frankfurt Airport between 2002 and 2004.
In his heyday as leader of Germany, Gerhard Schröder was always ready to demonstrate indignation at how George W. Bush waged his war on terror. He loved to portray himself as the man who kept Germany out of Iraq. On his watch, Germany would have nothing to do with America's methods in its global campaign against al-Qaida. He liked to underline that stance by saying Washington should be held accountable for its actions.

Schröder's time is over now. But questions about Germany's involvement in the methods of CIA agents operating in Europe are catching up with him as well as with the other political pensioners -- former foreign minister Joschka Fischer and especially former interior minister Otto Schily. Research by the Washington Post, SPIEGEL and other media show that neither the previous government nor the new administration under Angela Merkel should have been surprised about the reports in recent weeks about secret prisoner transports, secret prisons and CIA kidnappings.

It is also becoming ever clearer that the Schröder government was informed in detail and at an early stage about the policy of so-called "extraordinary renditions" and "black sites" across Europe. Cabinet ministers in Berlin clearly didn't just know the dirty details about Bush's unrestricted war on terror by reading the newspapers.

In some cases German intelligence officers even tried to profit from the controversial methods by questioning prisoners who were being held without any legal foundation. Schröder's stance on Iraq was popular and won him votes. But behind its anti-American veil, his government was quietly complicit and was occasionally rewarded for its silence.


Seems only right to me.

Some sort of punishment is in order.

Some sort of punishment is in order.

Agreed.

I think a good spanking and then the oral sex.

Just don't make it a Versailles-Treaty II. Besides, who's gonna pay for the EU's expenses? After all, Germany is the country that contributes the largest amount of money to the common cause.

I'd like to know more about the whole deal before I call for any kind of action. But something has to happen - I can totally agree on that!

I think a good spanking and then the oral sex.

But no sheisse. That'll learn'em.

Just don't make it a Versailles-Treaty II. Besides, who's gonna pay for the EU's expenses? After all, Germany is the country that contributes the largest amount of money to the common cause.

I'd like to know more about the whole deal before I call for any kind of action. But something has to happen - I can totally agree on that!

Yes, before everyone starts throwing stones, let's find out whose intelligence services and militaries have been involved in this from the beginning.

I'd love to see the look of embarassment on so many faces.

But no sheisse. That'll learn'em.
Careful, Fass... http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/misthaufen.gif

You never know what's gonna happen next.

Yes, before everyone starts throwing stones, let's find out whose intelligence services and militaries have been involved in this from the beginning.

I'd love to see the look of embarassment on so many faces.
Yup. Put the facts on the table and then discuss the whole picture. I believe there's more to unveil and usually the German media is pretty good at discovering stuff. And they have broadcasted some of it half a year ago, already. It's the old admin that simply didn't react.
Hopefully, the new one will do a better job.

I can't believe Schily (former ministry interior) just went for a Gestapo-deal like that... *mutters, shakes head, walks off*

Yes, before everyone starts throwing stones, let's find out whose intelligence services and militaries have been involved in this from the beginning.

I'd love to see the look of embarassment on so many faces.

No embarrassment here. I'd call for punishment of Sweden as well if things like these surface about the government. For once it's time the EU be used for good.

No embarrassment here. I'd call for punishment of Sweden as well if things like these surface about the government. For once it's time the EU be used for good.
I've said it on another thread, but I don't believe for a minute that the US CIA does anything in an EU country without that country knowing that flights are arriving, people are being held in some facility, etc.

I would bet that the intelligence service of any country involved already knows - probably because they are complicit in any arrangement. Which means that any national leader is also complicit, unless their intelligence service has gone completely rogue (unlikely).

Look too close, and I bet that half the EU nations were partying with the CIA.

I think it is a disgrace, collaborating with the enemy.

What? A European country agreeing with the US on something? Why, it's anti-European, I tell you! Cut them off, and send them and their so-called "independence" into the Western Hemisphere!:rolleyes:

Not defending their actions, BTW; I'm as anti-torture as any liberal. Just think it's mildly amusing that most of the EU leadership would probably see any agreement with the US as grounds for expulsion.

I don't really see how you can "punish" a country. And even if the EU tries, what actually is it going to do.

Perhaps Schroder and others in his administration should be punished, but that is a matter for Germany and the German people.

I don't really see how you can "punish" a country.

Monetary fine + revocation of voting rights in the Council of Ministers. A conviction in the ECHR would be nice, too.

I don't really see how you can "punish" a country. And even if the EU tries, what actually is it going to do.

Membership gets recinded for a specific time period. Would hurt big time especially for any big decisions that they are left out on becuase of that punishment. Economic, constitutional, political, etc etc.

A good hearty punishment would be warning to other EU states, that loyalty to the EU overrides loyalty to outside powers.

dont fuck with Germany,

Look too close, and I bet that half the EU nations were partying with the CIA.

Probably true. I'm just wondering who is going to punish the Bush Administration and the CIA. I don't care if you are conservative or not there is no place for torture and secret overseas prison in American ideals. Even if they weren't tortured, which I doubt, the overseas hidden prisons are bad enough. The media ran with the president getting his dick polished why don't they man up and fight to bring the administration and anyone responsible to some sort of justice in the public eye?

I think it's because our country has such a strong religious right that they can't:
A. Bring themselves to think against a God-fearing man
B. Care about Muslims
C. Ally with Liberals on any issue
Or:
D. They support torture themselves
E. They are so ignorant and misguided they won't believe it

Whatever the reasons it makes me sick how low the people will let this country sink.

Just beause Germany has done wrong in the past doesnt mean they will start again. And besides, is America any better?

I don't really see how you can "punish" a country. And even if the EU tries, what actually is it going to do.

Perhaps Schroder and others in his administration should be punished, but that is a matter for Germany and the German people.

Technically they could be kicked out of the EU altogether, as compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights is a requirement of membership. Of course the EU would then go bankrupt as the Germans make a net contribution of about £9 billion per year


I think it's because our country has such a strong religious right that they can't:
A. Bring themselves to think against a God-fearing man
B. Care about Muslims
C. Ally with Liberals on any issue
Or:
D. They support torture themselves
E. They are so ignorant and misguided they won't believe it

You forgot F. All of the above

B. Care about Muslims
D. They support torture themselves


Those two reasons have nothing to do with religion, or being right-wing.

Most Americans I know only have to be reminded by a brief video of the 911 event, and they'll not care what happens to Muslims, nor will they say torture is wrong.

Membership gets recinded for a specific time period. Would hurt big time especially for any big decisions that they are left out on becuase of that punishment. Economic, constitutional, political, etc etc.


Are you saying that tariffs would be re-imposed upon German goods in other EU countries? Could they also impose tarrifs upon EU goods entering Germany? And isn't that illegal under other EU states laws?

Also, would Germany stop paying all that money to the EU for this period?

Or is it just a matter of suspending the German delegation from the European parliament?

God I love the CIA.

Testing, testing, testing... is this thing on? Oh yeah *whooosh of flame*
:D

Of course the EU would then go bankrupt as the Germans make a net contribution of about £9 billion per year


Don't be silly. The EU budget is roughly €580 billion until 2009. It would hurt, but bankrupt? I think not.

God I love the CIA.

Testing, testing, testing... is this thing on? Oh yeah *whooosh of flame*
:D

The neat trick is that the CIA didn't plan on this confusion happening.

Monetary fine + revocation of voting rights in the Council of Ministers. A conviction in the ECHR would be nice, too.

Technically they could be kicked out of the EU altogether, as compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights is a requirement of membership. Of course the EU would then go bankrupt as the Germans make a net contribution of about £9 billion per year

You forgot F. All of the above

Right. Which EU will exist without Germany, huh? Not overly defending what has apparently happened - but kicking Germany out of the EU or punishing it through heavy fines will hurt the EU more than it will Germany.
I honestly don't believe that that is a valid idea...

Are you saying that tariffs would be re-imposed upon German goods in other EU countries? Could they also impose tarrifs upon EU goods entering Germany? And isn't that illegal under other EU states laws?

Also, would Germany stop paying all that money to the EU for this period?

Or is it just a matter of suspending the German delegation from the European parliament?

Well I'm not up to speed with the bureaucratic morass of the EU, but I think voting rights being withdrawn for a limited time was put on the table. I don't know any further. The rest is guess work :p

But the EU does have power in that respect.

Very few people can comprehend the depths of my hatred for that failed coat hanger abortion known as Europe. What's funny is that I'm of German descent/

Monetary fine + revocation of voting rights in the Council of Ministers. A conviction in the ECHR would be nice, too.

I can see punishing the individuals involved, i.e. Schroder, but not the whole country. After all, most Germans seemingly are vehemently opposed to this type of policy, and would never have supported it had they known it was going on. It hardly seems fair to punish them.

I can see punishing the individuals involved, i.e. Schroder, but not the whole country. After all, most Germans seemingly are vehemently opposed to this type of policy, and would never have supported it had they known it was going on. It hardly seems fair to punish them.
I find the idea of Schroeder knowingly going along with the CIA terribly and deliciously ironic.

Membership gets recinded for a specific time period. Would hurt big time especially for any big decisions that they are left out on becuase of that punishment. Economic, constitutional, political, etc etc.

A good hearty punishment would be warning to other EU states, that loyalty to the EU overrides loyalty to outside powers.

A tough punishment would also be a reason that other countrys might leave the EU with Germany. Leaving a member nation out of important decisions isn't going to make them want to come back, now is it? We operate in a world economy, Germany can sell its goods just as easily in North America as it can in Europe.

A tough punishment would also be a reason that other countrys might leave the EU with Germany. Leaving a member nation out of important decisions isn't going to make them want to come back, now is it? We operate in a world economy, Germany can sell its goods just as easily in North America as it can in Europe.

No. It teaches member states to obey the collective 'laws'. Germany ain't goin' anywhere. The difference between say, Britain and Germany, is that Germany KNOWS that being at the heart of Europe and leading it is the correct way forward. And leaving them out would only be for a limited time.

I find the idea of Schroeder knowingly going along with the CIA terribly and deliciously ironic.
It said the 'Schroeder government' not necessarily himself (Yes yes, I know, clutching at straws). Obviously I'm not trying to defend the actions, but I'll wait till the full story is out before making a judgment.

I can see the conspiracy theory now:

"PNAC and CIA plot to start European Civil War over human rights debate"

What a nefarious plot!

I can see the conspiracy theory now:

"PNAC and CIA plot to start European Civil War over human rights debate"

What a nefarious plot!

:p LMAO!

I can see punishing the individuals involved, i.e. Schroder, but not the whole country. After all, most Germans seemingly are vehemently opposed to this type of policy, and would never have supported it had they known it was going on. It hardly seems fair to punish them.

Democracy entails accountability.

:p LMAO!
The problem is that the CIA could not pull it off - they'll just claim afterwards that it was all their genius.

When you "punish a country", all you're really doing is punishing the people of that country for something that is not their fault, how were the German people supposed to know that the CIA were being twats (as usual) in their area?

Maan I hate the CIA, and George Bush the businessman president.

The problem is that the CIA could not pull it off - they'll just claim afterwards that it was all their genius.
Like if Operation Mongoose hadda worked against Castro :p Goddamn, I love the CIA for that one.

Technically France and Germany should have been punished ages ago for repeatedly breaking the budget deficit limits set by the EU.

Maan I hate the CIA, and George Bush the businessman president.

All of our politicians are lawyers and businessmen, with a few doctors thrown in.

[supposing the OP info is correct..]

well, ain't i glad i never adored my country all that much before anyways, or i could have been truly disappointed.

the hypocrisy is mindnumbing indeed, i recall so very well the wannabe-outraged rantings of the very politicians blamed for being on the inside now.

unfortunately, no biggie's going to happen. as pointed out before, there will be more countries who are in it as well than those who were not, and those who are in the same boat will do very well to keep quiet and not play the judge.

plus, look at how germany keeps on breaking the euro stability pact every year and again, and they don't even get told off, much less have to expect any action. to think any such thing as EU membership suspension is going to happen is an illusion.

but yes, it'll keep my on the edge of my seat to see what will be the consequences

Uhhmmmm, you people seem seriously dissillusioned about punishment here. Germany is deh playa in the EU, the most influential member. Also pays the highest donations, so punishing them is just going to piss off the hand that feeds you. Also Germany just has to offer France some incentive, and together they can pretty much outvote any chance to punish Germany.

Also the American's wouldn't let a nation take a brunt for supporting them, so if some small nation like Sweden or Belgium wants to punish Germany, they should wake up and realise they can't.

Also Germany is a big consumer nation, it will actually profit from being kicked out of the EU, because then they could tariff all member states goods, and make a fortune.

Democracy entails accountability.

Not like that. Why do you think that soveriegn immunity from civil suits still exists in limited fashion &c.

Arguably, if schroeder et al did this, they were already breaking German law. There is no need to punish the electorate because of a rogue chancellor whose secret activities said electorate knew nothing about.

And how can you be accountable for matters to which you have been deliberately decieved by the perpetrators?

Look too close, and I bet that half the EU nations were partying with the CIA.

I totally agree with that ! I'll bet there were prisoner transports all over europe !!
*remembering the title*
Especially you can't blame the whole country for the faults of the former Schröder governement...

Very few people can comprehend the depths of my hatred for that failed coat hanger abortion known as Europe. What's funny is that I'm of German descent/
:( Well I really feel sorry for you my friend...

Heads must roll. It's not that I am very seriously concerned about torture, it's just that in Europe, we must have more transparency. More accountability. Less hypocrasy. And more union. And such actions (if proven true, but they seem logical) go against all that.

:( Well I really feel sorry for you my friend...


what I said was a rare, almost lost form of communication called "hu-mor"

Well, membership suspension is probably a bit harsh, and very impractical.

But they did say they were going to have to look at voting rights. If it is found that the German government as a whole was doing this, then I'm afraid they're going to have to stand by their word.

At this point I'm not sure it was all that big...although Schily was a relatively important figure.

Realistically though, I can't see them really punishing one of the "big 3", which of course means that Poland and Romania will come away easily as well. A "I scratch your back if you scratch mine"-sorta thing.

But for me personally, Schröder's government lost a lot of credibility with me.

Suspending Germany's membership would effectively crush the EU. Suspend its most powerful economy, and what you have left is a toothless, weak organisation. France cannot bear all the weight on its own, and the UK is to disinterested in the EU to care. So no, by no means should Germany's membership be suspended.

Oh, and seeing as Schroeder and his government, and not the German people, are to blame, they should be the ones punished. Plus, Germany is under a new government. So forget it.

Suspending Germany's membership would effectively crush the EU. Suspend its most powerful economy, and what you have left is a toothless, weak organisation. France cannot bear all the weight on its own, and the UK is to disinterested in the EU to care. So no, by no means should Germany's membership be suspended.

Oh, and seeing as Schroeder and his government, and not the German people, are to blame, they should be the ones punished. Plus, Germany is under a new government. So forget it.
Awww... don't worry! Only here in NS... I'm pretty sure Germany is not punished - a LOT!

started as a joke... but what the fuck is this: France cannot....
Well, I'm sure France would love to be the single voice in the EU...but then again, they don't have all that much money in their coffers either.

But ultimately suspension is neither justified nor practical. Germany is one of the founding members of the various organisations that became the EU, it is its biggest economy and largest country.
And besides, Merkel was just about to end the Axis Paris-Berlin-Moscow and move more towards Britain in questions of the budget and so on. It would be quite stupid to expel them now, that they finally seem to be shifting their weight a little.

Awww... don't worry! Only here in NS... I'm pretty sure Germany is not punished - a LOT!
Germany is actually the punisher, not the reverse. :)

I would think a conviction in the ECHR would hurt a lot, politically. But I don't see that ever happening.

As if the CIA ever is going to let their "ghost-detainees" run wild filing lawsuits against governments who have been helpful to the Agency. Yeah, fat chance! They ain't ever gonna see the light o' day again, Bub!

I think it is a disgrace, collaborating with the enemy.


exscuse me?

i am all for rule of law and all against torture and gestapo type tactics...hell i despise anything that even smells of a police state.

however,and i may have misread your post,but calling america the "enemy" and rather dishonestly saying eu gov's are collaborators,is a bit over the top.

first off,as mentioned earlier,any governments involved were not conned or tricked into being collaborators,they would have to be willing participants.

which brings up another point....germany and france were not against the war or with joining bush against iraq...they were as any good western country against losing money!
they had mad side deals(illegally...thru there own signing of un resolutions)

i do find it amusing,or scary..that all of europe seems to think america is this unholy money whore,and to blame for every ill in the world,yet their own governments are as decietful or worse then bush and company.

think about it,if there was illegal renditions,eu countries were complicit...yet america is to blame,saddam did have wmd's(according to all intelligence agencies)and did violate numerous ceasefire agreements from gw1,and yet the german and french and russian governments all had mad side deals going which in a way enabled saddam to survive and continue the butchery of his own people...funded by the illegal deals.
but again..america is the bad guy.

i think people that live in glass houses should not throw stones.which explains the concilliatory comments by the new german pm.

honestly,what i find amazing is that anyone is even suprised.
western governments are concerned with money first and foremost(not right..but the way of the world)and things like these renditions and political murders and worse,went on long before we were even born,let alone during the cold war.
and lest we forget...we are at war.
what you and i believe and our governments do may be 2 different things,yet what is unarguable...the west and the east do not think alike,a war of ideas and cultures if you will.
again,not the average german,american,englishman,arab,or hindu think alike,yet the average person from these cultures mostly cares about food/providing for their families and being safe.
however,the people in power from the east and the west..think quite differently...the west main concern is economic and the east's main concern is more religous and dogmatic.

a generalization to be sure..but i hope you get my point.

it's not just america is greedy and the islamists are nuts...it's more the west is concerned with money...then maybe personal freedoms(which to most in the west is taken for granted,as it should be)and the east seems to mainly concerned with religion(the blind hatred of jews/the strict adherence to the whole thing with keeping women as second class citizens)
which to me means...western governments equate money the path to power and control....the east equates religion as the path to power and control.

if it were not for oil...the west could care less what or how the muslims treated there own.(africa..case in point)

i just think,dont kid yourself..all western gov's have dirty hands in this...on the surface or below.

i don't know enough to judge the arab gov's so i will withhold judgement(yet they do seem to be pretty bloodthirsty groups)

to the main point of the thread...sorry for the rant...we are in a war of some sort,and innocent people get killed/abused in wars.
would i like being illegally detained for months...hell no!
but the governments primary responsibility is for our collective safety and security.
does that mean they can do mass roundups of innocents..of coarse not,but in a shadow war,things are not black and white...so my take is..of coarse the german gov was in cahoots with the u.s.(hell they were in cahoots with saddam)but they either did it for national security or for money..so i guess they get a pass from me.

now if they start curtailing individual rights,with some exceptions(obvious shady things going on with a particular person or 2)then i will bitch.

i just guess i think all gov's act in there own self interest and it does not suprise me one bit.

p.s.i got a terrible cold...boo

I would think a conviction in the ECHR would hurt a lot, politically. But I don't see that ever happening.

As if the CIA ever is going to let their "ghost-detainees" run wild filing lawsuits against governments who have been helpful to the Agency. Yeah, fat chance! They ain't ever gonna see the light o' day again, Bub!
Right now? When the EU is in crisis? It would be idiotic.

Germany is actually the punisher, not the reverse. :)
Yes, all well... And staying true to the thread... who wants to throw the 1st stone? Those planes were all over the Nordic countries too (well, once or twice). After all, it says: "The lower echelons of the administration even co-operated actively."
"Those bastard air control OFFICERS"

Could you also please tell me how "the Schröder government was informed in detail", but "Cabinet ministers in Berlin clearly didn't just know the dirty details"...

Seems funny.

Yes, all well... And staying true to the thread... who wants to throw the 1st stone? Those planes were all over the Nordic countries too (well, once or twice). After all, it says: "The lower echelons of the administration even co-operated actively."
"Those bastard air control OFFICERS"

Could you also please tell me how "the Schröder government was informed in detail", but "Cabinet ministers in Berlin clearly didn't just know the dirty details"...

Seems funny.

funny with a bush trademark smirk:mp5:

which brings up another point....germany and france were not against the war or with joining bush against iraq...they were as any good western country against losing money!
they had mad side deals(illegally...thru there own signing of un resolutions)
...and yet the german and french and russian governments all had mad side deals going which in a way enabled saddam to survive and continue the butchery of his own people...funded by the illegal deals.
Actually, I'd like to see some proof of this. It's pretty popular to claim that...but I have yet to see anyone actually back up those claims with some facts.
It's like in the Darfur thread a few days ago...people claiming France wants Sudanese oil, when the EU gets most of its oil from outside OPEC (Russia and Norway mainly).

and lest we forget...we are at war.
what you and i believe and our governments do may be 2 different things,yet what is unarguable...the west and the east do not think alike,a war of ideas and cultures if you will.
See this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457649) here...there've been a few good comments about that.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10043508&postcount=43
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10043600&postcount=47
And my view:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10042679&postcount=30
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10047254&postcount=66

Those two reasons have nothing to do with religion, or being right-wing.

Most Americans I know only have to be reminded by a brief video of the 911 event, and they'll not care what happens to Muslims, nor will they say torture is wrong.

You are absolutely right I got on an anti-religious right tangent. Many people are just cowards who are at, or stoop to, the level of the tactics employed against them without thought.

Actually, I'd like to see some proof of this. It's pretty popular to claim that...but I have yet to see anyone actually back up those claims with some facts.
It's like in the Darfur thread a few days ago...people claiming France wants Sudanese oil, when the EU gets most of its oil from outside OPEC (Russia and Norway mainly).


See this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457649) here...there've been a few good comments about that.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10043508&postcount=43
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10043600&postcount=47
And my view:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10042679&postcount=30
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10047254&postcount=66

hi neu,

always like your opinion on things...gives me some balance if you will.

your first point...about the complicity of the german/french/russian governments with regards to iraq(illegal deals,for the war but publically against it..for political reasons)i cant give you links or anything concrete.

one reason is i am tired and a single dad of 2,so i just dont have alot of time to go search links(lame exscuse i know)

two,i am sure you have heard about the oil for food scandal at the un?

logic almost ..almost dictates that the reason the above countries were against the war was for monetary reasons.

it is hardly a secret that the french gov is in a bit of hot water over the oil for food thing,and the russians are historically linked to iraq(mig-29's,t-72"s,and a plethora of other "projects)not unlike iran now.

they sure as hell got involved in gw1,then when he violated(saddam) all the cease fire agreements,they were suspiciously mute.

i have read alot of articles making connections(illegal) between the gov's of germany and france in particular...russia as well(still dragging there feet on the iran nucleur thing..could it be they are making alot of hard currency on non weapon nucleur applications?)

i thought it was common knowledge,i am too busy to even do research, and have read about it.

i always like your opinion on things,but my premise still stands...no western country is without sin so to speak.

i don't know...do a google search on "oil for food" bet alot of french companies were involved.to be really cynical...maybe the us was pissed they were getting(halliburton)cut out of the profits of gw1 and thats the real reason we went to war.i mean we did basically fight the war,with the coalition of the west,but we bore the brunt of the exspense,and now everyone is profitting thru the un?
i could easily see the usa getting pissed and scheme our way back in(but i am cynical)

the only way i can back up "my opinions" is that no one wants to rock the boat now....and everyone is trying to make nice...you dont publisize(france/germany/russia) dirty dealings to our electorate,and we wont exspose yours!

thats my whole point..they are all whores/moneymongers/powermongers..whatever...and we are fighting people that have a different perspective or agenda.

your an intelligent person,you have to realize money makes"our"world go round
but that is not maybe the jihadists motivation...and they hate it.

sorry if i didn't answer your question with a link,but i think(cause i am old and cynical)that as usual,(with the exception of canada)the west primary motive is economic..and as my dad always said.."follow the money trail"

and as far as illegal prisons go...damn i am conflicted,part of me says...we are at war and if you can get 1 of the rat fuck coward terrorists to spill his guts..then good,but part of me believes in due process under the law and if we violate that..we are no better then them.

any who,nice to see you on here...

i am kinda incoherent cause i am a tad drunk and listening to sheryl crow...if it makes you happy...lol

Try being more succinct and capitalising. It would help make your posts be more legible.

it is hardly a secret that the french gov is in a bit of hot water over the oil for food thing,and the russians are historically linked to iraq(mig-29's,t-72"s,and a plethora of other "projects)not unlike iran now.
There was evidence regarding the UN-emissary of the French, who seems to have taken some money from Iraq. But I don't think he was important enough to have much weight in a decision like that.
But other than that, it was French, German, Australian and pretty much every other country's companies. Not the government, but private citizens from those countries.
And wasn't there a scandal with Halliburton getting around the embargo somehow and trading with Saddam after the first Gulf War?

they sure as hell got involved in gw1,then when he violated(saddam) all the cease fire agreements,they were suspiciously mute.
True, the French took part in the first Gulf War, fighting on the ground and doing some good work (another case of French troops being victorious Americans tend to forget).

i have read alot of articles making connections(illegal) between the gov's of germany and france in particular...russia as well(still dragging there feet on the iran nucleur thing..could it be they are making alot of hard currency on non weapon nucleur applications?)
Actually, the only people dragging their feet with Iran are the Iranians.
The US (after the disaster that was Iraq) agreed to let the EU try to stop the Iranians building a bomb with diplomacy. The Russians agreed to one measure where they give the Iranians nuclear fuel, so that Iran doesn't produce its own (which is the area where it could easily build bombs).

Iran doesn't seem too interested in a genuine agreement, so the EU has already made it clear that they will support the US when it comes to more serious consequences.

i always like your opinion on things,but my premise still stands...no western country is without sin so to speak.
That is true. Nonetheless, there are little sins and there are big sins...and torturing people like this - and particularly the case of a German citizen being kidnapped by the CIA, brought to Afghanistan, tortured and then returned because he happened to have the same name as someone they were looking for, and getting no help whatsoever from the German government, this case is one of the bigger sins.

the only way i can back up "my opinions" is that no one wants to rock the boat now....and everyone is trying to make nice...you dont publisize(france/germany/russia) dirty dealings to our electorate,and we wont exspose yours!
I'm afraid it might end up like that - except that there is this thing called the EU.
People say the EU is not accountable, and it impinges on countries' sovereignty...but this time that is a good thing, because they will get stuff into the light.
Plus there is the German opposition which is threatening with a full investigation as well.

What good would be done by punishing Germany for the actions or inactions of a government it has already voted out? That would be like keeping sanctions on Iraq after Saddam was ousted.

What good would be done by punishing Germany for the actions or inactions of a government it has already voted out? That would be like keeping sanctions on Iraq after Saddam was ousted.
Precisely.

The EU should kick Germany out, Germany should get pissed and invade france again. What do you think? The whole EU against Germany with the US and UK neutral. I think Germany would pwn the rest of Europe, but if the US or UK helped either side it could tip the scales.

That's just fantasy though. Germany won't get a slap on the wrist. At most Schroder will get some bad press. Most Europeans proabably won't even notice. Europe is as brainwashed by its media as America is by its own, it's just that it is fashionable for American leftists agree with the brainwashed Europeans. The EU exists to satisfy the political ambition of politicians and more importantly the economic desires of the large companies of its member states. What you hear in the press is thier spin on it as some grand ideological project. I'm sure corruption in the EU will be rampant, proabably moreso than in the US, and the European economy as a whole will suffer for it. Modern Democracy is merely a front for big buisness and political interests. Only when it is convienient for politicians will they try to serve the public's will, and even that isn't often in the public's best interests. I don't have any real solutions to the West's political problems, but maybe if enough people realize them someone will.

The EU should kick Germany out, Germany should get pissed and invade france again. What do you think? The whole EU against Germany with the US and UK neutral. I think Germany would pwn the rest of Europe, but if the US or UK helped either side it could tip the scales.

That's just fantasy though. Germany won't get a slap on the wrist. At most Schroder will get some bad press. Most Europeans proabably won't even notice. Europe is as brainwashed by its media as America is by its own, it's just that it is fashionable for American leftists agree with the brainwashed Europeans. The EU exists to satisfy the political ambition of politicians and more importantly the economic desires of the large companies of its member states. What you hear in the press is thier spin on it as some grand ideological project. I'm sure corruption in the EU will be rampant, proabably moreso than in the US, and the European economy as a whole will suffer for it. Modern Democracy is merely a front for big buisness and political interests. Only when it is convienient for politicians will they try to serve the public's will, and even that isn't often in the public's best interests. I don't have any real solutions to the West's political problems, but maybe if enough people realize them someone will.

Germany's army these days is small even by European standards. Though they could give the unionized Dutch Army a run for their money.

The EU should kick Germany out, Germany should get pissed and invade france again. What do you think? The whole EU against Germany with the US and UK neutral. I think Germany would pwn the rest of Europe, but if the US or UK helped either side it could tip the scales.

That's just fantasy though. Germany won't get a slap on the wrist. At most Schroder will get some bad press. Most Europeans proabably won't even notice. Europe is as brainwashed by its media as America is by its own, it's just that it is fashionable for American leftists agree with the brainwashed Europeans. The EU exists to satisfy the political ambition of politicians and more importantly the economic desires of the large companies of its member states. What you hear in the press is thier spin on it as some grand ideological project. I'm sure corruption in the EU will be rampant, proabably moreso than in the US, and the European economy as a whole will suffer for it. Modern Democracy is merely a front for big buisness and political interests. Only when it is convienient for politicians will they try to serve the public's will, and even that isn't often in the public's best interests. I don't have any real solutions to the West's political problems, but maybe if enough people realize them someone will.
You must be joking. Most people in the EU refrain from even participating in referendums nowadays due to the level of distrust towards the governments. We are hardly brainwashed.

Germany's army these days is small even by European standards. Though they could give the unionized Dutch Army a run for their money.
Eventually Germany will restore its army though, I'm sure. By that stage, it will probably be part of some larger European military force though. If we ever see the EU get out of this chaos it is in now. :rolleyes:

Germany's army these days is small even by European standards. Though they could give the unionized Dutch Army a run for their money.
Well...depends on the type of war. If it is simply on land...the Bundeswehr would give pretty much everyone in Europe a run for its money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr
Plus I don't know how many millions of reservists.

That being said...what a stupid idea. All European armies are more or less set up to work together, and by themselves are much diminished.

By that stage, it will probably be part of some larger European military force though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

Well...depends on the type of war. If it is simply on land...the Bundeswehr would give pretty much everyone in Europe a run for its money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr
Plus I don't know how many millions of reservists.

That being said...what a stupid idea. All European armies are more or less set up to work together, and by themselves are much diminished.
Exactly. It would be self defeating for any European nation to war against another now. We are stronger in alliance than in discord.

The Europeans are the main opposition to US foreign policy. In terms of intelligence sharing, however, their cooperation with the US has always been unwavering. The parties here are following an old rule of spying: nothing is wrong if it isn't caught.