NationStates Jolt Archive

The New York Times recently posted an article online about the problems that are occuring in Germany as a result of a lack of integration. Of particular interest is the problem of honor killings occuring in western countries. While this story in particular focuses on Germany (and, more specifically, Berlin), the problems addressed are the same problems we see all over Europe and the United States.

Those of you whoa re interested can find the article below, but beware, its longish.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/magazine/04berlin.html?pagewanted=1&adxnnl=0&adxnnlx=1133890336-NjoN62qrHIfobCwzrcKNJw

Maybe the solution is to halt immigration and to root out those who can't live in a civilized society and send them back to their own nations.

White guys kill women too, you know. :rolleyes:

They usually justify their actions along the lines of "The bitch cheated, and I'd had a couple Buds, so I figured I'd teach her a lesson" rather than quote scripture. But, we have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone with another religion or skin colour does it, it serves as justification to persecute the entire type.

Lovely logic there.

Er… honour killings come under the heading of murder. Doesn't sound like too much tolerance to me.

White guys kill women too, you know. :rolleyes:

They usually justify their actions along the lines of "The bitch cheated, and I'd had a couple Buds, so I figured I'd teach her a lesson" rather than quote scripture. But, we have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone with another religion or skin colour does it, it serves as justification to persecute the entire type.

Lovely logic there.

Uh...wrong. We have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone of another religion does it, it's regarded as wrong to investigate the cause (their religion, rather than their BAC), for fear of offending them.

if someone of another religion does it, it's regarded as wrong to investigate the cause (their religion, rather than their BAC), for fear of offending them.
Bullshit.

Religion is not the cause. The fact that the guy is a nutcase is the cause. One guy may point to his pride, another to a book, it's not the book that's the problem, and it certainly isn't its readership.

Uh...wrong. We have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone of another religion does it, it's regarded as wrong to investigate the cause (their religion, rather than their BAC), for fear of offending them. Mm, we're so deferential to Muslims… no racist attacks at all…

White guys kill women too, you know. :rolleyes:

They usually justify their actions along the lines of "The bitch cheated, and I'd had a couple Buds, so I figured I'd teach her a lesson" rather than quote scripture. But, we have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone with another religion or skin colour does it, it serves as justification to persecute the entire type.

Lovely logic there.
Did you bother to read the article? It's not about a few murders, although they are a part of it. It's about people who's mind and morality is in the 18th century moving into modern countries and refusing to learn how to be civilized. It's about them forcing the schools to use taxpayer funds to help teach their primitive morality and culture even to the point of inciting the kids to go against German law.

Bullshit.

Religion is not the cause. The fact that the guy is a nutcase is the cause. One guy may point to his pride, another to a book, it's not the book that's the problem, and it certainly isn't its readership.
Culture is the cause. The people mentioned in the article espouse a primitive culture with social norms and ethics that are in direct contradiction to those of civilized nations.

The people mentioned in the article espouse a primitive culture with social norms and ethics that are in direct contradiction to those of civilized nations.
ie Islam. Look, let's not pretend we don't know where the racists are going to go with this. Like the BNP have already done in the UK. Crap like this just converts domestic violence into racial violence.

ie Islam. Look, let's not pretend we don't know where the racists are going to go with this. Like the BNP have already done in the UK. Crap like this just converts domestic violence into racial violence.
Bullshit. You've got a habit of seeing racism and religious bias everywhere. There are plenty of Muslims who behave themselves. They're welcome to stay in civilized countries. The rest can go back to their goat herding and wife beating.

Bullshit. You've got a habit of seeing racism and religious bias everywhere. There are plenty of Muslims who behave themselves. They're welcome to stay in civilized countries. The rest can go back to their goat herding and wife beating.
Well, what you say is exactly the line the British nazi party is taking. Go figure.

Maybe the solution is to halt immigration and to root out those who can't live in a civilized society and send them back to their own nations.
What if thoes that "cant live in a civilized society" are thoes that are the nation in questions own citizens

where do we ship them?

White guys kill women too, you know. :rolleyes:

They usually justify their actions along the lines of "The bitch cheated, and I'd had a couple Buds, so I figured I'd teach her a lesson" rather than quote scripture. But, we have come to expect the former to the extent that it gets a few lines in the middle pages, whereas if someone with another religion or skin colour does it, it serves as justification to persecute the entire type.

Lovely logic there.

Not really, there is a diffrence. Scripture applies to all those who follow a religion. Alcohol & vilonce isnt part of every white persons life.

Bullshit. You've got a habit of seeing racism and religious bias everywhere. There are plenty of Muslims who behave themselves. They're welcome to stay in civilized countries. The rest can go back to their goat herding and wife beating.
What if it is not they that are misbehaving but citizens of the reciving country that are

I don't care for the reason. Murder is murder and should be punished by jail. What? Am I allowed to sacrifice babies to Baal because that's my religious belief?

What if thoes that "cant live in a civilized society" are thoes that are the nation in questions own citizens

where do we ship them?
The Germans came up with a solution to that one too.

Joke. Bad Taste. Sorry.

What if it is not they that are misbehaving but citizens of the reciving country that are
That's what prisons are for.

Bullshit.

Religion is not the cause. The fact that the guy is a nutcase is the cause. One guy may point to his pride, another to a book, it's not the book that's the problem, and it certainly isn't its readership.


The difference is that, in civilized societies, we view this as an abberation. If wife cheats on her husband and he kills her, all of society seeks to punish him. Her father does not order her brothers to hunt her down, her culture does not advocate such an action. This isn't about husbands killing wives in a fit of jealousy, this is about whole socieities advocating and supporting the murder of members who walk away. It is oppresive, cult-like activity.

ie Islam. Look, let's not pretend we don't know where the racists are going to go with this. Like the BNP have already done in the UK. Crap like this just converts domestic violence into racial violence.

Islam isn't the problem. Theres a pretty large Islamic population in Chicago and we don't have nearly as much of this garbage. Why? Because the Black Muslims (Nation of Islam, not African immigrants) never had this disgusting crap in their culture and immigrant muslims integrate rather quickly (within a generation, if that) because our system is set up to accept and embrace immigrants while teaching them our rules.

I hear again and again people confusing arab and north african culture with Islam. Yes, the two influenced eachother, but they are NOT the same thing. Islam is a religion that, like most religions, is vague and neutral enough that different people will read it differently. The problem is abberant cultures that still view women as a commodity to be bought, sold, or destroyed rather than human beings. Call me a racist if you want, but a culture that turns on the inherant denial of the human rights of half the population isn't equal, it is inferior, it is savage.

Well, what you say is exactly the line the British nazi party is taking. Go figure.

I'm a big advocate of an extensive superhighway system and affordable, dependable cars, does that make me a Nazi? If you want to challenge the content of an opinion, do it, but don't try this guilt by association bullshit. Every society has rules, rules that must be followed for membership. The problem here is that we are encountering groups that refuse to follow the rules, groups that want to reap the benefits of living in the civilized world but continue to run their little patriarchal dictatorships when they come home. No, sorry, doesn't work that way. The west isn't perfect, but alot of people have worked damn hard to make the buying and selling of human beings illegal, to make women equal citizens, to make religious ideology take a back seat to human rights. Too many have worked too hard to let some savage tribal facist get us to turn our backs on abuses in our own territory. Tollerance of those who do not respect freedom is not a virtue, it is a surrender.

The difference is that, in civilized societies, we view this as an abberation. If wife cheats on her husband and he kills her, all of society seeks to punish him. Her father does not order her brothers to hunt her down, her culture does not advocate such an action. This isn't about husbands killing wives in a fit of jealousy, this is about whole socieities advocating and supporting the murder of members who walk away. It is oppresive, cult-like activity. <Snip>
Like it or not, you don't get to decide what's wrong & right in a culture & for a people that has nothing to do with you.

In Germany, the rest of europe and in America, people who commit 'honour-killings' are locked up just like other murderers are. The laws in those countries doesn't discriminate between cultures, skincolours or religions. It's applicable to everyone, equally.

If your Arab Muslim neigbour decide their daughter needs killing, and their whole extended family is in on it, then they (hopefully) will get nailed for conspiracy & murder. You would too, if you & your family decided to kill your daughter.

Slightly unrelated: if your society have been naive enough to grant an 'undesirable' citizenship, then there's no excuse for deporting the person, unless all citizens get deported for similar actions.
Anything else is racism/xenophobia.


Islam isn't the problem. Theres a pretty large Islamic population in Chicago and we don't have nearly as much of this garbage. Why? Because the Black Muslims (Nation of Islam, not African immigrants) never had this disgusting crap in their culture and immigrant muslims integrate rather quickly (within a generation, if that) because our system is set up to accept and embrace immigrants while teaching them our rules.

<Snip>[/QUOTE]

Is it possible to discuss this issue without it turning into a slugfest of extreme notions?

Here's the way I see it:

The problem here is not Islam (Islam has its own problems). "Honor killings" are a cultural phenomenon associated with Africa/North Africa -- though not exclusively. Same with slavery and forced female circumcision. They are a hold-over from ancient times; they are part of the traditional social power structure; there is increasing controversy and resistance to these things in their original countries.

History indicates that traditions become more militant and more oppressive when they are in the process of being changed. This is because those whose status and power is supported by the traditions resist the change. But change is inevitable. These things will fall by the wayside, where they belong. The more pressure and support for change there is, the faster change will happen.

Regardless of what goes on in the home country, we must all live under the laws of the countries we are actually in. Honor killings may be okay sometimes in some places, but under German law they are murder, plain and simple, and should be treated as such, and the hell with "traditional culture." It isn't traditional German culture.

So, where does this leave us? 1) Don't blame Islam for this one. 2) Don't blame all members of an ethnic/cultural group for this, either. 3) Respecting others' cultures doesn't mean we have to abandon our own cultures -- or our own laws; claiming a cultural excuse for killing is not valid under German law, so, sorry, buddy, but you guilty.

It doesn't seem like that complicated a matter to me.

Well, what you say is exactly the line the British nazi party is taking. Go figure.
Well they can't be wrong on every issue, can they?

Well they can't be wrong on every issue, can they?
Yes, actually, they can. You might want to be a bit more discriminating in your choice of known associates.

Yes, actually, they can. You might want to be a bit more discriminating in your choice of known associates.
Associates would imply that I hang out with them. I don't.

If they agree with me that the immigrants who can't abide by the rules of a civilized country should be sent back to their old country then they're right on at least one issue.

Associates would imply that I hang out with them. I don't.

If they agree with me that the immigrants who can't abide by the rules of a civilized country should be sent back to their old country then they're right on at least one issue.

I don't think it really matters what you say. The topic's already been Godwinned.

Like it or not, you don't get to decide what's wrong & right in a culture & for a people that has nothing to do with you.

In Germany, the rest of europe and in America, people who commit 'honour-killings' are locked up just like other murderers are. The laws in those countries doesn't discriminate between cultures, skincolours or religions. It's applicable to everyone, equally.

If your Arab Muslim neigbour decide their daughter needs killing, and their whole extended family is in on it, then they (hopefully) will get nailed for conspiracy & murder. You would too, if you & your family decided to kill your daughter.

The problem is that they often times don't. Like any organized crime, you can only break it if you go directly after the leaders or find those lower on the chain that are willing to talk. If this was a situation of skinheads mudering women because they associated with jews, would I be getting a lecture? No, people would be rounded up and imprisioned for simply espousing violent antisemetic views.

The law DOES discriminate when it comes to viewpoint. In the vast majority of western countries, killing a man because he is black is punished more harshly than killing him because you got in an argument. Why? Because one killing represents a loss of personal control and the other represents intimidation and terrorism. Murdering a woman for not adhering to cultural norms is not just an attack against that woman, it is a warning to all women in that community who might think to follow in her footsteps. It is the same as lynching a black man in Mississippi for trying to vote, the same as breaking the windows of a buisness because the owner is Jewish, the same shooting a doctor who provides abortions, the same as strapping a bomb to your chest and going to a shopping mall. No difference.

The fact of the matter is, this isn't a family affair, this isn't a cultural thing that "has nothing to do with" me. These kinda of things do effect me. The wanton disregard of the freedom of another in my country reduces my freedom. An assault on the freedom of women is an assault on the freedom of my wife, my mother, my sister, my aunts and cousins. The buying and selling of human beings, the murder of human beings because they refused to conform is not something that a free society can abide. It is not something we can look away from and say "well, as long as the killers are put away, if we can manage that." The underlying causes of these crimes must be addressed, I'm just damn thankful I live in a country that if it ever did directly effect me or mine we have the right (and the access) to the tools we need to defend ourselves from the ballet to the bullet.

Is it possible to discuss this issue without it turning into a slugfest of extreme notions?

Here's the way I see it:

The problem here is not Islam (Islam has its own problems). "Honor killings" are a cultural phenomenon associated with Africa/North Africa -- though not exclusively. Same with slavery and forced female circumcision. They are a hold-over from ancient times; they are part of the traditional social power structure; there is increasing controversy and resistance to these things in their original countries.

History indicates that traditions become more militant and more oppressive when they are in the process of being changed. This is because those whose status and power is supported by the traditions resist the change. But change is inevitable. These things will fall by the wayside, where they belong. The more pressure and support for change there is, the faster change will happen.

Regardless of what goes on in the home country, we must all live under the laws of the countries we are actually in. Honor killings may be okay sometimes in some places, but under German law they are murder, plain and simple, and should be treated as such, and the hell with "traditional culture." It isn't traditional German culture.

So, where does this leave us? 1) Don't blame Islam for this one. 2) Don't blame all members of an ethnic/cultural group for this, either. 3) Respecting others' cultures doesn't mean we have to abandon our own cultures -- or our own laws; claiming a cultural excuse for killing is not valid under German law, so, sorry, buddy, but you guilty.

It doesn't seem like that complicated a matter to me.


*Applauds*

I don't think it really matters what you say. The topic's already been Godwinned.

Not to get off-topic, but, does the Godwin rule still apply when Nazis really are a facet of the discussion? I mean, when talking about the abuses of minorities in Germany, the Nazis are pretty salient. Granted, this specific invocation (You don't like immigrants? Netiehr do teh Nazis!!!!!!elevendyone!!!) was a Godwin, but still, I've always wondered.