NationStates Jolt Archive

Now I am a heathen or Assatru person. My religion is best associated with the Vikings, but I assure you the religion is not just connected to the Viking people of Northern Europe. The religion can be dated back to as far as 2000 B.C., and during a timeperiod from 750-1150, it ruled or controlled most of Europe after the fall of the Romans.

However, from 1150 A.D onwards, the religion was persecuted by Christians, used for fighting the Muslims in the Crusades, and then persecuted, kind of like Native Americans after the war of 1812 when they were no longer military allies.

With the Asatru or Heathen people, there were two wars fought in Norway and Sweden which ended the Heathen control of territory. They were extremely bloody and all Heathen practices were outlawed.

Asatru or Heathen practices were done in secret and most Asatru 'literature' was able to escape to Iceland.

Since the 1840s, the Asatru religion grew, especially in Germany until WWII.

Since the 1970s, the 65 countries now have at least one Asatru member in them. There is around 35,000 to 50,000 Asatru people, maybe even 100,000 people.

However, the Asatru people have been persecuted by Christian followers, and they were forced to assmilate like Native Americans. They have also been blamed for the Holocaust which is absolutely not true, it was committed by Hitler and his crooks who were Christian.

Finally, Asatru or the Heathen religion is recognized in Iceland and Denmark and should be recognized in Norway and Sweden shortly.

Therefore, I pose the question. Should Asatru people negotiate with federal government in Europe and in America to get rights like any other religion? or should they demand rights like Native Americans receive?

Now I am a heathen or Assatru person. My religion is best associated with the Vikings, but I assure you the religion is not just connected to the Viking people of Northern Europe. The religion can be dated back to as far as 2000 B.C., and during a timeperiod from 750-1150, it ruled or controlled most of Europe after the fall of the Romans.

However, from 1150 A.D onwards, the religion was persecuted by Christians, used for fighting the Muslims in the Crusades, and then persecuted, kind of like Native Americans after the war of 1812 when they were no longer military allies.

With the Asatru or Heathen people, there were two wars fought in Norway and Sweden which ended the Heathen control of territory. They were extremely bloody and all Heathen practices were outlawed.

Asatru or Heathen practices were done in secret and most Asatru 'literature' was able to escape to Iceland.

Since the 1840s, the Asatru religion grew, especially in Germany until WWII.

Since the 1970s, the 65 countries now have at least one Asatru member in them. There is around 35,000 to 50,000 Asatru people, maybe even 100,000 people.

However, the Asatru people have been persecuted by Christian followers, and they were forced to assmilate like Native Americans. They have also been blamed for the Holocaust which is absolutely not true, it was committed by Hitler and his crooks who were Christian.

Finally, Asatru or the Heathen religion is recognized in Iceland and Denmark and should be recognized in Norway and Sweden shortly.

Therefore, I pose the question. Should Asatru people negotiate with federal government in Europe and in America to get rights like any other religion? or should they demand rights like Native Americans receive?
Nobody alive today feels guilty enough about things that happened in 1150 AD to give you the autonomy that Native Americans have. Work for equal religious rights. It's the most you can expect to get.

You should get special rights, just like all religions: none

[/medusa sarcasm]

Therefore, I pose the question. Should Asatru people negotiate with federal government in Europe and in America to get rights like any other religion? or should they demand rights like Native Americans receive?
Sorry...why do you think you should have any sort of rights equivalent to indigenous rights in the Americas?

Not exactly. In Ontario, there were tribunals for family court for Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist and other religions who didn't want mainstream law. It has been repealled now but that had been going on for twenty years.

Not exactly. In Ontario, there were tribunals for family court for Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist and other religions who didn't want mainstream law. It has been repealled now but that had been going on for twenty years. No, there were tribunals for Catholics, and Jews. Those were the only recognised ones. Other tribunals were informal, and as you mentioned, they have been struck down...meaning there's no point in hoping that Assatru tribunals will suddenly be allowed.

Sorry...why do you think you should have any sort of rights equivalent to indigenous rights in the Americas?
Well.... the vikings were there before the English/French too :p

Nobody alive today feels guilty enough about things that happened in 1150 AD to give you the autonomy that Native Americans have. Work for equal religious rights. It's the most you can expect to get.
If you figure that a lot of blond haired, blue eyed people from those regions seem to have gotten on quite well after the nastinesss of the Thirty Years War, I fail to see the "oppression" that they were subjected to.

Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.

So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.

In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.

Asatru people are not all blond haired and blue eyed. I am not and I know alot who are not blonde, that it just a idea that most people get. There were two major wars in norway, sweden, which resulted in persecution.

If you were not allowed to practice your religion, even if you are economically better off than that is still a form of persecution. And being blamed for the Holocaust is not right.

You could say that some Native Americans are more economically better off now than when Christians came, which I find hard to believe, but they are only getting their rights now. Self-governance, cultural relaxation, in Canada the potlauch and the Sun dance, etc. etc.

Well.... the vikings were there before the English/French too :p
But not before us. So no.

So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.Aside from the not being considered weird, I'd agree.
You can't make laws about what someone can consider weird though. And it's not like there aren't people that think Christians are weird, or atheists. People are weird period.

In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.If it's true, than no, it's not fair. Is there really regulation about what jewelry one can wear? (as long as it doesn't interfere with the job).

Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.

So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people. No one has the right to not be considered weird. But religious freedom does exist in most Western nations.

In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.What law prevents someone from wearing a Thor hammer?

And for pete's sake...quote who you are replying to.

I'm glad you seem to have given up the idea that you are somehow equivalent to First Nations people in the US and Canada. Because that, frankly, is insulting.

Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.

So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.

In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.
1) Yep. History's full of injustice like that, but since it happened so long ago and there are so few of you nobody feels guilty about it. Sorry, but public opinion counts for alot in these situations.

2) I agree that you should be allowed to practice your religion and culture, but you can't stop others from considering you weird. Hell, there are people who consider catholicism weird.

3) That's wrong. You should work on that. ACLU might be able to help.

But not before us?

The Viking people as you so call, actually the Heathens or Asatru people were there before us. We practiced our religions, had our economic and political structures. However that was all changed by Christianity!

1) Yep. History's full of injustice like that, but since it happened so long ago and there are so few of you nobody feels guilty about it. Sorry, but public opinion counts for alot in these situations.

2) I agree that you should be allowed to practice your religion and culture, but you can't stop others from considering you weird. Hell, there are people who consider catholicism weird.

3) That's wrong. You should work on that. ACLU might be able to help.

Something tells me the ACLU doesn't help people in Canada. I might be wrong.

Something tells me the ACLU doesn't help people in Canada. I might be wrong.
Damn my US-centrism!

But not before us?

The Viking people as you so call, actually the Heathens or Asatru people were there before us. We practiced our religions, had our economic and political structures. However that was all changed by Christianity!
I'm Cree. So no, you 'vikings' were not here BEFORE US.

Damn my US-centrism!
I wouldn't worry about it. I've never heard of government workers being prevented from wearing jewlery. Methinks an exageration is being fobbed off as truth.

Asatro? I'm sorry, but that's just silly to me as a Swede.

I'm Cree. So no, you 'vikings' were not here BEFORE US.
You have one hell of a way to say "goodbye".

ki'htwa'm ka-wa'p(a)mit(i)n.

or a couple variations thereof...

I would spend most of my time mumbling in Cree...

...It's a pretty daft thing to get in a tiz about, if you ask me. With the exception of the religious freedom to wear whatever jewelry you please (so long as it doesn't interfere with your work), I'm not sure what it is you're suggesting a campaign for...? Turning back the clock? What on earth would that accomplish?

You have one hell of a way to say "goodbye".

ki'htwa'm ka-wa'p(a)mit(i)n.

or a couple variations thereof...

I would spend most of my time mumbling in Cree...
It means more than goodbye, it's saying you'll see someone again...goodbye is permanent. We don't say it often. And most of those letters get dropped in speech...it sounds like "kitwankwapmitn".

I'm sorry, CQ, but I'm still not sure what you're asking for after reading the whole thread.

As long as the practices do not interfer with another person's rights to life or property there should be no laws against it. As far as the US, and to my limited knowledge of Canada, there are no laws to stop such practices.

As far as the Thor's hammer goes; someone would have to reconize it as a religious symbol as opposed to a simple piece of jewlery. Having several siblings who are of various pagan faiths, I reconize several such icons, but most people are clueless. Even then, you could argue that either any necklace/pendant would then need to be banned, or that all religious symbols need to be banned

Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.The problem here is that those events took place the better part of a millenia ago.
These things aren't a problem anymore. People in Scandinavia (and northern europe in general) are free to practice whatever religions they wish. They can build their own places or worthship if they so desire, and can get dispensation to be buried/burned in accordance with their wishes. Sure, they have to seek permission for it, but generally speaking, it's simply a formality.

Unlike Indians, the Scandinavian people weren't driven from their lands or anything of the sort. A whole bunch were murdered, sure, but noone drove them off or anything like that. They still have whatever land they always had.So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.Barring brainsurgery, it's impossible to prevent people from thinking others are weird. That said, people are free to practice whatever religious rituals they wish, as long at those rituals doesn't hurt others, or adversely affect others.

If they want to go into a wood, get drunk, have huge bonfires & lots of sex, then they're free to do so, as long as they either don't break any laws or get permission to do so. They're obviously not allowed to hang thralls or hold bloot festivals, but that's got nothing to do with the religion. I'm not allowed to kill people either, and I'm an atheist.In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.Sounds like a case for the supreme court or something. Whatever, the peoples of Scandinavia can wear whatever religious gear they want, whenever they want. Various places of employment may force people to observe a dresscode though, but noone can legally prevent you from wearing a necklace with an image of Mjölnir.

The persecution you speak of is non-existing in Scandinavia, and has been for centuries. Asertro was only recently regognised as a religion (which grants various legal benefits in all the Scandinavian countries) in Denmark. Odd as that may seem, the explanation is perfectly simple, and doesn't have anything to do with discrimination.

There are very, very few followers of the religion left in the world. In the Scandinavian countries, a religion has to have a certain amount of followers to recieve the legal status of a religion. At this point in time, there are enough followers in Denmark, and thus it's now recognised as a religion. Keep preaching and the same will happen in the rest of Scandinavia.
Incidentially, I could have sworn it was a recognised religion in Norway, but my memory went on a general strike some 28 years ago, so I suppose I could be wrong.

It means more than goodbye, it's saying you'll see someone again...goodbye is permanent. We don't say it often. And most of those letters get dropped in speech...it sounds like "kitwankwapmitn".

So, how do you say, "you look great in that bikini"?

It means more than goodbye, it's saying you'll see someone again...goodbye is permanent. We don't say it often. And most of those letters get dropped in speech...it sounds like "kitwankwapmitn".


Ok, but how do you pronounce that?

I think I will stick with Zhai'helleva

So, how do you say, "you look great in that bikini"?
I have no idea....I don't know the word for bikini, if there is one...using a bit of Crenglish, it might be kamiyobikinita. Which would actually translate more like "your bikini is nice".

Ok, but how do you pronounce that?

I think I will stick with Zhai'helleva
Lackey fanatic:)

And you say it the way it's spelled...kitwankwapmitn....kit/wan/kwa/pmITN.

I have no idea....I don't know the word for bikini, if there is one...using a bit of Crenglish, it might be kamiyobikinita.

Well, let's make it simpler - idiomatically speaking, what would be the equivalent of "you look hot!"

Well, let's make it simpler - idiomatically speaking, what would be the equivalent of "you look hot!"
Kamiyonâkosiw. You are beautiful. I don't know any slangy, or idiomatic way to say that.

Kamiyonâkosiw. You are beautiful. I don't know any slangy, or idiomatic way to say that.
Just looking for a way to get slapped when I'm in Canada...

Just looking for a way to get slapped when I'm in Canada...
Heh...I don't even think you'll need words for that!

Lackey fanatic:)
Whatever gave you that idea?

And you say it the way it's spelled...kitwankwapmitn....kit/wan/kwa/pmITN.

Well that defantlly helps...I have the splits all wrong.

Kit/wank/wap/mit/n

The persecution you speak of is non-existing in Scandinavia, and has been for centuries. Asertro was only recently regognised as a religion (which grants various legal benefits in all the Scandinavian countries) in Denmark. Odd as that may seem, the explanation is perfectly simple, and doesn't have anything to do with discrimination.

There are very, very few followers of the religion left in the world. In the Scandinavian countries, a religion has to have a certain amount of followers to recieve the legal status of a religion. At this point in time, there are enough followers in Denmark, and thus it's now recognised as a religion. Keep preaching and the same will happen in the rest of Scandinavia.
Incidentially, I could have sworn it was a recognised religion in Norway, but my memory went on a general strike some 28 years ago, so I suppose I could be wrong.
I thought it was recognised in Iceland too, and I was right.
WIKI: "Ásatrú was recognized as an official religion by the Icelandic government in 1973 and by the Danish government in 2003. The United States government does not officially endorse or recognize any religious group, however numerous Ásatrú groups have been granted nonprofit religious status going back to the 1970s."

All good fun.:p

Okay I still have not found a link to the Thor Hammer but i am looking.

However with regards to the Holocaust;

http://www.asatrulore.org/thread.php?threadid=3582&sid=

And here in Russia:

http://www.asatrulore.org/thread.php?threadid=2318&sid=

Here is some incidents about Heathen and other faith people saying what it is like where they live.

http://www.irminsul.org/ir/irpoll.html

Either post quotes or use a source that doesn't require registration/subscription.

- At least if you want me to read it.

Here it is, where a person faced racism by the federal government of the United States because of the Thor Hammer that person wears. It happened in 2002, but it is recent so I still think it goes on.


svartalfar Monday, August 12, 2002, 00:30:19 PDT
Sadly, I work for the federal government (USA) and I have experienced both discrimination and harassment. Coworkers can display their crosses, but I could not display the Hammer of Thor. I have been harrassed and spat upon, degraded even by other pagans, and called a racist (which is untrue) to my face. I often flee to the openmindedness of Buddhists for companionship when I cannot find kin.
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Here it is, where a person faced racism by the federal government of the United States because of the Thor Hammer that person wears. It happened in 2002, but it is recent so I still think it goes on.


svartalfar Monday, August 12, 2002, 00:30:19 PDT
Sadly, I work for the federal government (USA) and I have experienced both discrimination and harassment. Coworkers can display their crosses, but I could not display the Hammer of Thor. I have been harrassed and spat upon, degraded even by other pagans, and called a racist (which is untrue) to my face. I often flee to the openmindedness of Buddhists for companionship when I cannot find kin.
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Hardly a link. Someone claims that others don't like his/her Hammer of Thor. You still haven't proven that this is some sort of legal discrimination.

Therefore, I pose the question. Should Asatru people negotiate with federal government in Europe and in America to get rights like any other religion?

In America, you already have those rights. In order to have the US pass a law recognizing Asatru as a religion, you'd first have to repeal the 1st Amendment, which bars Congress from passing any law recognizing any religion.

In the US, you can be and practice any religion you like. What you won't get, however, is the right not to be made fun of for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada-Quebec
But not before us?

The Viking people as you so call, actually the Heathens or Asatru people were there before us. We practiced our religions, had our economic and political structures. However that was all changed by Christianity!

I'm Cree. So no, you 'vikings' were not here BEFORE US.

I am sorry. I did not know you were Cree! Now, I do not believe Asatru is as far back as the Indigenous religions of North and South America. However, I believe it is one of the first religions indigenous to Europe, going back to 2,000 B.C. And like the Indigenous people of North and South America, the political, economic and social structures of the heathen people was turned against it.



...It's a pretty daft thing to get in a tiz about, if you ask me. With the exception of the religious freedom to wear whatever jewelry you please (so long as it doesn't interfere with your work), I'm not sure what it is you're suggesting a campaign for...? Turning back the clock? What on earth would that accomplish?

First of that with regards to the jewlery. I think that there will be racism to Asatru people because of what we do, but I don't think the US government should be apart of it. However, I do not think the Asatru people should be blamed for the Holocaust, and all symbols used by the SS and Hitler should be cleansed of that awfulness, and when Asatru members wear these items that they are not called racists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada-Quebec
Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.

The problem here is that those events took place the better part of a millenia ago.
These things aren't a problem anymore. People in Scandinavia (and northern europe in general) are free to practice whatever religions they wish. They can build their own places or worthship if they so desire, and can get dispensation to be buried/burned in accordance with their wishes. Sure, they have to seek permission for it, but generally speaking, it's simply a formality.

Unlike Indians, the Scandinavian people weren't driven from their lands or anything of the sort. A whole bunch were murdered, sure, but noone drove them off or anything like that. They still have whatever land they always had.
Quote:
So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.

Barring brainsurgery, it's impossible to prevent people from thinking others are weird. That said, people are free to practice whatever religious rituals they wish, as long at those rituals doesn't hurt others, or adversely affect others.

If they want to go into a wood, get drunk, have huge bonfires & lots of sex, then they're free to do so, as long as they either don't break any laws or get permission to do so. They're obviously not allowed to hang thralls or hold bloot festivals, but that's got nothing to do with the religion. I'm not allowed to kill people either, and I'm an atheist.
Quote:
In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.

Sounds like a case for the supreme court or something. Whatever, the peoples of Scandinavia can wear whatever religious gear they want, whenever they want. Various places of employment may force people to observe a dresscode though, but noone can legally prevent you from wearing a necklace with an image of Mjölnir.

The persecution you speak of is non-existing in Scandinavia, and has been for centuries. Asertro was only recently regognised as a religion (which grants various legal benefits in all the Scandinavian countries) in Denmark. Odd as that may seem, the explanation is perfectly simple, and doesn't have anything to do with discrimination.

There are very, very few followers of the religion left in the world. In the Scandinavian countries, a religion has to have a certain amount of followers to recieve the legal status of a religion. At this point in time, there are enough followers in Denmark, and thus it's now recognised as a religion. Keep preaching and the same will happen in the rest of Scandinavia.
Incidentially, I could have sworn it was a recognised religion in Norway, but my memory went on a general strike some 28 years ago, so I suppose I could be wrong.

Thank you!

Hardly a link. Someone claims that others don't like his/her Hammer of Thor. You still haven't proven that this is some sort of legal discrimination.

What about the discrimination of the Heathen people in Russia, and the Pope saying the Holocaust was done by Heathens. That is federal discrimination! The discrimination done to this person was committed in a Federal building, and it does not appear that anything was done about it.

You wanted proof I gave you proof that there is discrimination of people Asatru people because of what they wear.

---------

The point I am trying to make is the Asatru is discriminated. Rights should be given to Asatru people in Europe, just like Indigenous people in America and Canada. In Europe!

Because the Vikings actually came here to Canada and America as a way to build an empire or colony they don't need the same rights. What I am trying to get at for Asatru people in North and South America would be religious rights so they can't be persecuted.

First of that with regards to the jewlery. I think that there will be racism to Asatru people because of what we do, but I don't think the US government should be apart of it. However, I do not think the Asatru people should be blamed for the Holocaust, and all symbols used by the SS and Hitler should be cleansed of that awfulness, and when Asatru members wear these items that they are not called racists.


I think 'racism' is pushing it. You're not a race, you're a religion. You're moving the goalposts here! :p

Wait... you're saying that folk wearing asatru stuff get pushed around, yeah? But then you're saying that asatru stuff is also assciated (purely visually! I'm _not_ saying your lot were part of the holocaust) with nazism?

And you wonder why you get spat at?!!!!

Lord... OK, firstly, after the strong association (wrongly, you say) of your visual symbols with nazi visual symbols, only an idiot would wear them where the general public could see them - it's _asking_ for trouble, like goinig into a synagouge wearing a swastica. Yes, that symbol is actually based on a greek design meaninig something relatively innocent and was merely subverted by nazism (as you say your asatru symbols were), but it'd still be a stupid thing to do!

I support your right to be make the decision to wear symbols that are associated in the mind of the public (when they're recognised at all) with nazism; but don't ask me to stop thinking you're stupid to do it. You ask for trouble, than make a fuss when you get it? :rolleyes:

What about the discrimination of the Heathen people in Russia, and the Pope saying the Holocaust was done by Heathens. That is federal discrimination! The discrimination done to this person was committed in a Federal building, and it does not appear that anything was done about it.

What did HE do about it? Expect someone else to fix it? You can't get action without you doing something.

Also, I don't belive the Pope is federal.



You wanted proof I gave you proof that there is discrimination of people Asatru people because of what they wear.

Proof requires a link.

To put it in perspective:
We debate about whether profiling is right or wrong. I write 'my friend was profiled and she didn't appreciate it so it must be wrong!'

Would you accept that?

The point I am trying to make is the Asatru is discriminated. Rights should be given to Asatru people in Europe, just like Indigenous people in America and Canada. In Europe!

Because the Vikings actually came here to Canada and America as a way to build an empire or colony they don't need the same rights. What I am trying to get at for Asatru people in North and South America would be religious rights so they can't be persecuted.
And you have yet to prove any sort of official discrimination. Unless there are actual laws preventing you from practicing your religion, or preventing you from wearing religious symbols, there is nothing to fight legally. You may have to fight people's attitudes...but the way you have phrased your original question, it seems as though you are talking about LEGAL rights, not just stereotypes.

Now, I do not believe Asatru is as far back as the Indigenous religions of North and South America. However, I believe it is one of the first religions indigenous to Europe, going back to 2,000 B.C.Asatru is a reconstructed religion, it pretty much hasn't existed for several centuries in between.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm

The point I am trying to make is the Asatru is discriminated.How are they discriminated? They have the same rights as any other human being in our society. What more do you want your own country? Go conquer Liechtenstein or luxemburg or something, if you happen to die in battle you can feast with at Odin's table. win-win.

Rights should be given to Asatru people in Europe, just like Indigenous people in America and Canada. In Europe! Why? Were they driven from their homes in a colonial expansion?
Is it even 'a people'? I thought it was a religion, not an ethnic group.

Asatro? I'm sorry, but that's just silly to me as a Swede.
Aye. Me thinks that the hammer of Thor is a very nice piece of jewelry though...

I am sorry. I did not know you were Cree! Now, I do not believe Asatru is as far back as the Indigenous religions of North and South America. However, I believe it is one of the first religions indigenous to Europe, going back to 2,000 B.C. And like the Indigenous people of North and South America, the political, economic and social structures of the heathen people was turned against it.Actually.. While Norse Mythos has it's roots in the Germanic religions of 2000+ years ago, it is very much its own thing. Sure, names & a few stories are common, and it's easy to determine the roots of it, but it is decidedly different from most of it's ancestry. Much more so than most other religions.First of that with regards to the jewlery. I think that there will be racism to Asatru people because of what we do, but I don't think the US government should be apart of it. However, I do not think the Asatru people should be blamed for the Holocaust, and all symbols used by the SS and Hitler should be cleansed of that awfulness, and when Asatru members wear these items that they are not called racists.The US government can't discriminate against particular religions. Not legally. If it does so anyway, take it to the courts.

Hitler, racism, nazism, xenophobia, homophobia and all that crap, has nothing to do with Asatru. Some Catholic priests molests little boys, but that doesn't mean Catholicism is about molesting little boys, does it?
It's the same thing. Atheists can't force scum to take up religion any more than religions can force scum not to believe them.
And speaking of ripping off people's symbols, the Anarchists of the world can't prevent trendy multinational clothing chains from selling clothes with circle-A's on it. Again, it's the same thing. I know that a protestant church once tried to prevent a shithead hippie from shooting a porn movie with a bunch of women fucking themselves with crosses. All they managed was to give the guy publicity.

Disassociate yourself from the nazis, and accept the fact that some people abuse your holy symbols. It's all you can do. And if people spit on you, curb the wankers.Thank you!You're welcome. A few of my friends are praticing believers, so I think it's a fairly interesting topic."Ásatrú was recognized as an official religion by the Icelandic government in 1973I must have confused Norway with Iceland then - I considered writing I believed the Norwegian government recognised Asatru back in the early 70s... Never trust TSw's memory :p

Nobody alive today feels guilty enough about things that happened in 1150 AD to give you the autonomy that Native Americans have. Work for equal religious rights. It's the most you can expect to get.

Either that, or start putting the ceremonial horns on the nativity scenes under the Yultide trees. And hang Odin upsidedown from it with a spear in him, then wait to see how many people think it's the Spear of Longinus.

There's a bear hunt going on in New Jersey right now. Could be the perfect time to get yourself a Bear Shirt for proper bersarking. First time ever I regreted not having a gun license. Not that I have time for a hunting trip in Jersey in the next couple of months anyway.

I think more Christians would convert to Asatru if they learned that beer and pork chops take the place of the Christians' mealy wafer and getting to watch the priest take a sip of wine. And oh those poor protestant denominations that prohibit all alcohol.

Elgesh']...It's a pretty daft thing to get in a tiz about, if you ask me. With the exception of the religious freedom to wear whatever jewelry you please (so long as it doesn't interfere with your work), I'm not sure what it is you're suggesting a campaign for...? Turning back the clock? What on earth would that accomplish?

It would undermine the Pat Robertson's, Jerry Falwells, and Osama bin Ladens of the world. Provide for a pan-faith understanding that religion is to be left to the locals and not to be used as a tool of would-be emperors to swindle the masses into following them and dying for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada-Quebec
Now, I do not believe Asatru is as far back as the Indigenous religions of North and South America. However, I believe it is one of the first religions indigenous to Europe, going back to 2,000 B.C.

Asatru is a reconstructed religion, it pretty much hasn't existed for several centuries in between.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada-Quebec
The point I am trying to make is the Asatru is discriminated.

How are they discriminated? They have the same rights as any other human being in our society. What more do you want your own country? Go conquer Liechtenstein or luxemburg or something, if you happen to die in battle you can feast with at Odin's table. win-win.


Quote:
Rights should be given to Asatru people in Europe, just like Indigenous people in America and Canada. In Europe!

Why? Were they driven from their homes in a colonial expansion?
Is it even 'a people'? I thought it was a religion, not an ethnic group.

Yes they were, you could say they were colonized by the Christian people. It was the native religion of the people of Northern Europe and expanded to all of Europe until about 1100 A.D

When I also mean people, I am talking about Asatru people, therefore not an ethnic group but people who believe in Asatru. Sorry if you thought it was an ethnic group.

I don't want to create a nation but their is a Heathen group that wants to create a nation.

Proof requires a link.

To put it in perspective:
We debate about whether profiling is right or wrong. I write 'my friend was profiled and she didn't appreciate it so it must be wrong!'

Would you accept that?

Yes and No!

In one of the links I gave, a person said he was kicked out of school because of his religion as an Asatru person, but they used the excuse of his bad grades. I think racial profiling would be involved if we were a race a people, but we are a religion.

But once we say we are Asatru there is this some kind of reaction that people get. Not just Christians but most other religions, even other Pagan religions.

And on the point of racial profiling, I don't think any race or religion should be profiled.

And with the legal rights, in Russia, one of the links, the pagan religion there which is closely linked to Asatru is being persecuted by the government.

Because, first off, Heathen people were in Northern Europe. They were persecuted or assimilated into mainstream Christianity just like Native Americans were. Native Americans had their culture and religion taken away from they.

So I believe like Native Americans, in Europe, maybe Heathens should be allowed to freely practice their religion where their symbols, and be able to have festivals without being considered weird people.

In America, the Thor hammer, which is worn around the neck cannot be worn by a heathen person if they work for the government, however a Catholic person is allow to wear the cross. I do not believe that is fair.

Bullshit.

Forgive me for my ignorance, yet what is Asatro exactly? Is it the pagan religion practised by the germanic people before the advent of Christianity? I remember reading that Hitler's Church was a neo-pagan revival of the ancient germanic beliefs, yet I have little knowledge as to what these were or what they entailed. Aren't they essentially similar to druidism? In any case, if it is a religion, I guess it could vye to achieve the same level of recognition as any other one. Doesn't the Church of Satan enjoy recognition? :p

Here is the link:

http://www.irminsul.org/ir/irpoll.html

Now it is not bullshit, no one would make up something like that.

Forgive me for my ignorance, yet what is Asatro exactly? Is it the pagan religion practised by the germanic people before the advent of Christianity? I remember reading that Hitler's Church was a neo-pagan revival of the ancient germanic beliefs, yet I have little knowledge as to what these were or what they entailed. Aren't they essentially similar to druidism? In any case, if it is a religion, I guess it could vye to achieve the same level of recognition as any other one. Doesn't the Church of Satan enjoy recognition?

Asatru is a Religion from 2000 B.C., now it was almost wipped out in around 1150 A.D by Christian people but it was practiced secretly especially in Iceland but there was a gradual revival in Europe in late 1800s, and in the 1960s in North America.

Hitler's Church was totally Christian. What he did was take the symbols of Asatru and used it for his own church, the swatzika for example. In the Asatru religion it means peace, but now most people have deep resentment to it. And Hitler's Church was not a revival because he sent dozens of Heathen or Asatru people to concentration camps.

Wouldn't know about the Church of Satan?

It deserves the same recognition to any other religion

Anyone?

Asatru's a better way to go with. Much better as a name anyway. Heathen's a better adjective.

Well, I hate Wagner the way gazelle hates lions, so Asatru isn't really my thing as you can imagine, but hey, I'm not really into flaming wantonly. I'm not too familiar with the exact nature of it other than what I've heard from descriptions of Wagner's operas.

Bullshit.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/OHR/rel.htm I would tend to agree, especially since this is addressed specifically:

" (c) Employees generally may wear religious medallions over their clothes or so that they are otherwise visible. Typically, this alone will not affect workplace efficiency, and therefore is protected."

Originally Posted by The Cat-Tribe
Bullshit.


http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/OHR/rel.htm I would tend to agree, especially since this is addressed specifically:

" (c) Employees generally may wear religious medallions over their clothes or so that they are otherwise visible. Typically, this alone will not affect workplace efficiency, and therefore is protected."

Doesn't mean that the co-workers and the people who are above this person or people have to follow the rules. i posted what a person said, now, I am sure there are more than just this incident. Because I never heard anything about it, I don't think people listened to her/him.

Here is the link:

http://www.irminsul.org/ir/irpoll.html

Now it is not bullshit, no one would make up something like that.
I quote from your link:
Opinion Polls
These polls are not scientifically valid surveys and are intended for entertainment and discussion purposes only. Results are updated as votes are received. All voting is anonymous, user identities are not tracked in any way. Polls have no predetermined duration. Any questions about the polls may be sent to info@irminsul.org.

That's it, besides a link to the polls. Not once does it mention US government policies, let alone discriminatory ones. Given that the link discredits itself, I'm with Cat/Kat in calling bullshit.

Doesn't mean that the co-workers and the people who are above this person or people have to follow the rules. i posted what a person said, now, I am sure there are more than just this incident. Because I never heard anything about it, I don't think people listened to her/him.

Um, yes, actually, it DOES mean that they have to follow the rules. These are the federal guidelines for ANY employee in the federal government (just google it, including the copy that the ACLU has/had on their site.)

Given this memo and the provisions of the first amendment, the courts would have a field day with any manager who allowed what you describe. Then again, you've contradicted yourself a number of times in this thread and been corrected by others as well.

Of course, documented proof is trumped by secondhand personal anecdotes
anyday...


(Ironically I know someone who currently works for the Gov't and wears a Thor's Hammer. Strangely enough, s/he has no problem. However, given that I could say that and never prove it, I offered a reliable and verifiable source.)

Doesn't mean that the co-workers and the people who are above this person or people have to follow the rules.
Kat answered this argument rather nicely. Subordinates can't get away with discrimination because they're subordinates, nor can superiors. Federal statutory authority applies to everyone along the governmental food chain.

i posted what a person said, now, I am sure there are more than just this incident. Because I never heard anything about it, I don't think people listened to her/him.
That's crazy troll logic. Because I haven't heard of more incidents, there are more incidents. Because the Illuminati haven't told me they're running our government, the Illuminati are running our government. And so on.

Further, you have zero evidence supporting these assertions. Proof please!

Proof of U.S. government religious bias against the religion of Asatru is shown in MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base funded by American republicans;

with links:

http://www.tkb.org/Glossary.jsp

Asatrú: "Racist adherents of [nature-based belief systems like Odinism and Asatrú] long for a return to the genetically based tribe, or folk. They mythologize the misty past of white northern Europeans as a romantic tableau of boar-slaying warriors, dewy-eyed Aryan maidens and pristine Alpine scenery..."(http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=516 )

Which is a lie and makes people think that Asatru religious people are racist, white-men which is a total lie because even though the Asatru religion associated with White Northern-European in the past it is inclusive with everyone.

And another link:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=516

This is in regards to a demonstration that took place in Seattle, which had a lot of Asatru followers in it.

A religion that is based from 2000 B.C., followers is being criticized as fantasies believers for a religion they follow.

I hope people read this!

Proof of U.S. government religious bias against the religion of Asatru is shown in MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base funded by American republicans;

with links:

http://www.tkb.org/Glossary.jsp
The MIPT is not funded by the US government. Their website does not claim to be funded by the US government. They just claim that Congress asked them to do research. That their research was bad is in no way indicative of government policy. You still haven't given us a link proving that the US government in practice discriminates. Further, the link provided to the SPLCenter indicates that the MIPT website is simply describing a particular terrorist group which claims to derive its ideology from Asatru beliefs. Read the context of the quote.



Which is a lie and makes people think that Asatru religious people are racist, white-men which is a total lie because even though the Asatru religion associated with White Northern-European in the past it is inclusive with everyone.

And another link:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=516

This is in regards to a demonstration that took place in Seattle, which had a lot of Asatru followers in it.

A religion that is based from 2000 B.C., followers is being criticized as fantasies believers for a religion they follow.
I answered this above. Read your own damn article - it says that the "demonstraters" were skinhead terrorists who have appropriated Asatru beliefs. It also doesn't mention the US government once.

The group that put this article down is done by the Republican Party of America. It did not paint just the skin-heads as Asatru but in their declaration of Asatru as a terrorist group they don't appear to make a difference to anyone implying everyone in Asatru is racist.

The group that put this article down is done by the Republican Party of America. It did not paint just the skin-heads as Asatru but in their declaration of Asatru as a terrorist group they don't appear to make a difference to anyone implying everyone in Asatru is racist.
Sigh. Read your own articles.

Give me evidence they're funded by the Republicans.

If you have that (which I doubt), that still doesn't prove any influence in government decision-making, which you have ZERO proof of. You lose, sorry.

MIPT:

The National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT) is a non-profit organization dedicated to preventing terrorism on U.S. soil or mitigating its effects. MIPT was established after the April 1995 bombing of the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City, and it is funded through the Department of Homeland Security's Office for State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness (OSLGCP).

The United States Congress directed MIPT to conduct “research into the social and political causes and effects of terrorism” through our automated information systems and to “serve as a national point of contact for antiterrorism information sharing among Federal, State and local preparedness agencies, as well as private and public organizations dealing with these issues.” MIPT firmly believes that the accurate dissemination of knowledge on terrorism is a critical ingredient for combating terrorism. Serving the needs of emergency responders, counterterrorism practitioners, policymakers, and the public, MIPT offers access to a wealth of information resources including its knowledge base initiatives, its website, and its library collection. Visit the MIPT Homepage.

MIPT manages two other knowledge bases – the Lessons Learned Information Sharing system and the Responder Knowledge Base.



The Lessons Learned Information Sharing system is the national network of lessons learned and best practices for emergency response providers and homeland security officials. Sponsored by MIPT and DHS, LLIS.gov is the official repository of lessons learned for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. The system is available to emergency response personnel at no charge. Watch the Virtual Tour for LLIS.



The Responder Knowledge Base provides emergency responders, purchasers, and planners with a trusted, integrated, on-line source of information on products, standards, certifications, grants, and other equipment-related information. Sponsored by MIPT and DHS, the RKB includes the following content areas: 1) Products; 2) Standardized Equipment List; 3) Authorized Equipment List; 4) Terrorism Response Objectives; 5) Standards; 6) Certifications; 7) Operational Suitability Testing; 8) Grants; 9) Training; and 10) Reference Material. Read the Responder Knowledge Base Overview.

It is a non-profit organization funded by the department of Homeland Security created by the USA government. It is just simply saying that, it is a cover-site for the Homeland security boys so they can say who is a terrorist and who isn't.

I already answered all of this. No evidence it's funded by the Republican party (DHS funds a lot of very random things). No evidence this group has any influence in the USFG. And no evidence, in context, from the original website, that they weren't referring to particular terrorist groups which had appropriated Asatru beliefs. Until you can provide any of that, we're done here.

Asatrú: "Racist adherents of [nature-based belief systems like Odinism and Asatrú] long for a return to the genetically based tribe, or folk. They mythologize the misty past of white northern Europeans as a romantic tableau of boar-slaying warriors, dewy-eyed Aryan maidens and pristine Alpine scenery..."(http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=516 )

Christian Identity: Christian Identity is a religious ideology advocated by many extreme right-wing and racist groups. Devotees believe that whites of European background are one of the "Lost Tribes of Israel." Many believers consider Jews to be the offspring of Eve and the Serpent, and non-whites are designated as “mud peoples.” Although the Christian Identity movement has relatively few adherents, the ideology has had an influence on numerous racist and extreme right-wing terrorist groups.

Now to quote the definition, "racist adherents of (nature-based belief systems) long for a return to the genetically based tribe, or folk."

Now for the Christian Identity group, "many believers consider Jews to be offspring of Eve and the Serpent". This provides that most but not all of these members of this group believe this thought.

No distinction for Asatru followers all are "racist adherents of (nature-based belief systems) long for a return to the genetically based tribe, or folk." Which is a total lie!

The people who make up this definition basically mock what is written in our Eddas and Sagas stating;

They mythologize the misty past of white northern Europeans as a romantic tableau of boar-slaying warriors, dewy-eyed Aryan maidens and pristine Alpine scenery..."(

Our Eddas fled with the Asatru people to Iceland with the onset of Christianity. They are recorded history, unless they are proven wrong which they haven't, and this definition comes up with They mythologize the misty past of white northern Europeans as a romantic tableau of boar-slaying warriors, dewy-eyed Aryan maidens and pristine Alpine scenery this is disrespectful.

This MIPT is founded by Homeland Security which was created by the Republican Party. What more do you need?

This MIPT Terrorist Database is directly a mouthpiece for the U.S. government, either democratic or Republican so don't give me any crap that it isn't a mouth piece. It was as to do research by congress but is funded, Funded by Homeland Security.

There is no terrorist organization that is associated to Asatru. We have political organizations and councils. If anything took place by Asatru religious people in Seattle it would have been associated with our kindreds or our councils not a terrorist group.

Ok I am getting a wee bit confused here. Asatru is a new religion based on an older one, just like Wicca is. You can't find anyone who has been an Asatru for more that 50 years (I think I'm being generous in my counting)

Ásatrú (Icelandic "Æsir faith") is a new religious movement which is attempting to revive the pre-Christian (Viking Age) Nordic religion as described in the Eddas.

It was established in the 1960s and early 1970s in Iceland, by the Íslenska Ásatrúarfélagið which was founded by Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson. Ásatrú was recognized as an official religion by the govenments of Iceland (in 1973), Denmark (in 2003) and Norway. The United States government does not officially endorse or recognize any religious group, however numerous Ásatrú groups have been granted nonprofit religious status going back to the 1970s. Ásatrú overlaps with, but is not comprised by, the white power movement.

While the term Ásatrú originally referred specifically to the Icelandic adherents of the religion, Germanic neopagan and reconstructionist groups widely identify themselves as Ásatrú, particularly in the USA. In this wider sense, the term Ásatrú is used synonymously with Germanic Neopaganism or Germanic Paganism, along with the terms Forn Sed, Odinism, Heithni or Heathenry and others.

You keep talking about Asatru as if it was the ancient religion itself.

As far as any persecution, you're either crying wolf or chasing shadows. I've seen plenty of the Asatru people around my area and none seem to be having any more problems than the rest of us. For the record: I am Christian, but I also have plenty of ties with the pagan community including a Druid brother and several Wiccian and general pagan sisters.

It dates back to 2,000 B.C. It wasn't the same name back then, but it has connections to the Germanic and Northern European tribes back then. They were also what would be called the 'Vikings' which ruled or controlled most of Europe from 700 A.D to 1150 A.D. Then they were persecuted savcagely my Christians even though Vikings or Asatru people were used in the Crusades to help the Christian people against Muslims.

It had a revival in Germany back in the 1800s, but that died before WWII. Then it had a revival in the 1960s in the rest of the world. It is now recognized in Iceland and Denmark.

It is not a new religion. It has had a revival but it was practiced in secret, it is totally unlike Wicca which is a new religion that takes components of all pagan religions.

I am only providing the links, and I suggest you tell these Asatru people that on this site by MIPT they are considered racist, and are considered terrorists? Then talk!

Thank you for your questions though!

I'm not even going to go into the whole MIPT thing. Not worth it for me.

If it went by a diffrent name back then, then those people who were percecuted were the (insert ancent name here) people who would be diffrent from the Asatru people. similar religions, diffrent people.

Can you provide some sort of sourcing for your revivals and such? I mean at least there is enough historical records available to prove that Jesus did indeed exsist (they don't necessarily prove he was who he claimed he was...don't start that thread here) and that the early Christians did meet in secret. I'm not trying to deny your claim outright, I'm searching for referances.

I would love to able to say something like 'pagan scholars and theologians generally agree' here...... but because neo-pagan religions are so new, we don't have that tradition of scholarship to turn to when debates like this come up.

Based on my own personal studies, I consider Wicca (my own faith) to be a new neo-pagan religion, loosely based on celtic mythology and christian occultism. Asatru I consider a moderate reconstructionist religion -- most Asatru groups and people are attempting (within the constraints of modern culture) to practice their faith the same way that the original worshippers of the norse deities would have practiced it. It is not, I think, a surviving pre-christian religion such as Zoroastrianism is, but re-created one.

Unfortunately - and due wholly to the events of WWII -- much of the symbology of the original norse/germanic religions has become associated with the Nazi's, and thru that with white supremicist groups. The 'race aware' faction of the Asatru is particularly strong in the US, probably I think because the US had a history of racial issues when the Asatru revival got here.

On a side note, if you want to check out some *serious* reconstructionist paganism, look in hellenic reconstructionism. These folks' standards are so intense that you'll have trouble getting them to take you seriously if you're not fluent in reading greek and latin.

http://www.ragweedforge.com/vikrel.html This page is a decent brief overview of the Asatru, and how they're related to the original norse beliefs -- they also have a nice set of links to some of the major english speaking Asatru groups. The wiki on Asatru seems fairly well done, and the religioustolerance listing for them is also a good source for leads for further reading.

While I have not heard any personal stories of discrimination based on wearing Thor's Hammer from any of my Asatru friends, I rather imagine that *if* there is a problem wearing it in US goverment job situations, it may be because of the unfortunate association of Asatru with white supremacy in the US.

Skoal!

Elicere

Historical forms
Germanic mythology has deep roots in western culture, but its source materials are historically compromised and often fragmented or contradictory. Considerable study is required to get an adequate feel for the mythology as a whole. Important sources include the Eddas and Sagas, written in Iceland during its golden age of literature, 1150 - 1400. A collection of poems known from a manuscript called the Codex Regius known as "The Poetic (or Elder) Edda" is especially important as it contains some of the earliest known literary sources and several of its poems were clearly source material for Snorri Struluson when he wrote what is now known as "The Younger (or Prose) Edda." Other guidance can be found in the folklore, history, and antiquities of the Germanic and Nordic peoples, as well as those of their ethno-religious cousins the Slavs, the Finns, the Baltic peoples, the Celts, the Romans,the Greeks, and the early Hindus and Persians.

The living remnants of the Nordic pre-Christian religion may be regarded as an indigenous ancestral faith, as Shinto is for the Japanese. Many modern practitioners attempt to reconstruct or limit their beliefs to those common to the pre-conversion (roughly the year 1000) inhabitants of present-day Scandinavia, England, Germany and the Low Countries. It is closely related with Finnish paganism and Baltic paganism.

The historical religion appears to be a branch of an earlier Indo-European religion, analogous to the way in which the Proto-Indo-European language evolved into such offshoots as Sanskrit and the Germanic and Slavic languages. Religious siblings include the Greco-Roman religion in southern Europe, the Slavic religion in Eastern Europe and early Hinduism in the east. Numerous scholars such as Georges Dumézil, H. R. Ellis Davidson, and Hans Gunther have commented on the philosophical similarities of these religious systems.

Faith was not as central to the Norse Heathenry found in medieval sources as it was to Christianity. An individual was identified as heathen based on his or her participation in cultic rites rather than by any allegiance professed. There was no clear division between sacred and profane, or body and spirit. The culture in which this form of heathenry flourished was clan-based, with an established honour economy. The individual's identity and worth was tied to membership of an Ætt. Fulfilling the duty to the Ætt was their measure of what was morally right and worthy of praise. Interactions with other Ættr usually took the form of alliance, war or vendetta. These cultural traits were projected onto nature and the Norse culture itself, so that interactions with gods, spirits and ancestors took the form of diplomacy, attempts at befriending or warding off the harmful or beneficial powers which were thought to cause equivalent behaviour or natural events.

Several practices are known to have been important to them. One of the most well known was Blót, seasonal celebrations where gifts were offered to appropriate gods, and attempts were made to predict the coming season. Similar events were sometimes arranged in times of crisis, for much the same reasons.

Modern forms
In modern times, Ásatrú is a revived and reconstructed religion. It is not Neopagan in the usual sense, and many believers reject the Neopagan label, generally preferring the term Heathen. Neither is it an accurate reflection of the ancient or modern native beliefs and practices of the Norse cultures. Practice is based on historical record to the extent possible. The rites of different groups and individuals vary, but tend to be similar. Ásatrú survives by tradition, with a strong literary foundation.

The first modern attempt at a revival of a Germanic religion took place in the 19th Century during the late Romantic Period amidst a general resurgence of interest in traditional Germanic culture. Organized Ásatrú groups existed in Germany in the early 20th century. Several early members of the Nazi Party were part of the Thule Society, a study group for German antiquity, although interest in Ásatrú seems to have been something of a fringe element that was not widespread among the party (see Nazi Mysticism). Adolf Hitler is quoted as opposing any open revival of belief in the Norse pantheon, and there is no evidence of official activity in the Third Reich fitting the description of Ásatrú, despite the Nazis' use of runic symbols in various contexts. Nonetheless, many people in Germany today associate Ásatrú with the Nazi movement and neo-Nazi groups, whereas in Iceland it has left wing associations.

A second revival began in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Ásatrú was recognized as an official religion by the Icelandic government in 1973, largely due to the efforts of Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson. At about the same time, Else Christiansen began publishing "The Odinist" newsletter in Canada. In the United States, Steve McNallen, a former U.S. Army officer, began publishing a newsletter titled "The Runestone". He also formed an organization called the Asatru Free Assembly, later renamed the Asatru Folk Assembly, which held annual "Althing" meetings. An offshoot of McNallen's group was the Asatru Alliance, headed by Valgard Murray, publisher of "Vor Tru".

In the late 1980's - early 1990's there was a cult in Norway run by the infamous Count Grishnack that was responsible for the burning of several Christian churches in an attempt to restore norway to its Ásatrú roots. Many Ásatrú adherents strongly disapproved of Grishnack's activities.

The Odinic Rite, the world's longest running international Odinist organisation, was established in England but has chapters worldwide. Today, followers of Ásatrú may be found all over the world, but principally in Scandinavia, Western Europe, North America and Australia/New Zealand. Estimates of the size of the Ásatrú population vary widely.

Ásatrú organizations generally favor democratic and republican forms of church government, as inspired by the parliamentary Things of the Viking era and subsequent parliamentary systems of Britain and the Scandinavian countries. They promote individual rights and freedom of speech reminiscent of Norsemen of the saga era. There is no central authority, and these groups are mostly small and often fractious.

In the United States, the most prevalent form of Ásatrú organization is a small group called a Kindred, sometimes also known as a Hearth, Garth or Stead. Larger Ásatrú organizations, such as The Odinic Rite, the Ásatrú Alliance, the Ásatrú Folk Assembly and The Troth, serve as organizers of yearly gatherings ("Things" or "Moots"), and as clearinghouses for religious information.

In addition to local groups, an unknowable number of solitary practitioners exist. These are often people who have encountered Norse or Germanic mythology as literature and see it as a foundation for religion, but are unaware that others exist who share their beliefs. The Internet has been helpful in making them aware of modern Ásatrú as a larger phenomenon, although solitary practice continues to be the norm for many, even after they have discovered an Ásatrú organization.

Greetings all,

I have read through all the posts, and having done so it's difficult to say who I would be responding to directly so I will just give you a run-down of my thoughts on the subject.

As a heathen having once lived in the U.S. and now living in Norway I can tell you that the rights and acceptance of heathen practices varies greatly between countries. In the U.S. it is very much a reconstruction religion, and some - though they are the minority - use the religion of Asatru to further their own racist point of view and remain tied to some purist belief that the religion is only for people who are of northern european decent. It is this kind of stuff that makes the news and forms public opinion about what Asatru and heathenism is about. This is the unfortunate reality, and until Asatruars can make a name for themselves otherwise, public opinion won't change. While Asatruars are free to practice what they will (as stated before so long as no laws are broken) there is still a general misunderstanding of what the religion is, and the kind of people and their values are. The way to change that is -not- to go to the federal government and demand rights, but to show your might and main (your worth) to those around you. A key value of the heathen people is honour, and by demonstrating your honour and the value of who you are within or without the context of your religion will win understanding. There are several groups in the US that are working toward making Asatru a more mainstream religious alternative - the Asatru Folk Assembly is probably one of the more active ones in this respect.

Here in Norway, however, it is a recognised religion. Åsatrufelleskapet Bifrost was given official recognition by Norwegian authorities in 1996. I have been honoured to speak with the directors of several of the major Asatru organisations in Scandinavia and Germany, and there is a big difference in the way they see the practice of Asatru vs. the way it is done in the US. For one thing there is no distinction between "folkish", "universalist", "norse-pagan", etc. They all seem to believe it is the Practice that makes you heathen. Many of the customs of heathenism are still active today in Christian Scandinavia, though they just don't realize it. It is simply a part of their culture that has not been destroyed.

To quote an email I received from Sveriges Asatroamfund (the Swedish asatru organization) "In Sweden, and probably also in Norway and Denmark, most northern pagans focus on the (religious and ethic) practice, the way you live. In Sweden very few pagans call themselves ”asatroende” (asa-belivers), we simply call ourselves ”pagans” and we don’t call our religion for ”asatro” (asatru). We call it ”Seden” (the custom, the practice). And while we emphasise the practice it becoms absurd to talk about genetics or biology. Anyone who ”practice” are followers of ”Seden”. We talk about FAITH—PRACTICE—PATH.
(Tro—Sed—Väg.) And the practice is the most important."

I agree with this, and if more asatru groups outside of Scandinavia worked in this way - without classifications of folkish/universalist and stop the in-fighting that results from it, then purhaps there would be some solidity and respect would be won.

But, no, I don't believe we deserve any special rights. I think intervention of the government would only undermine the respect and value that we will win should we all manage to prove ourselves. Afterall, Asatru is not a native religion of any of the Americas/Canada - it may have been brought there a long, long time ago by visiting travellers, but it obviously didn't stick. ;) So like it or not, I think we have to fend for ourselves - and luckily we have some large organizations who can help us if it comes to legal battles defending our rights. I mean, Blockbuster Video got put on the chopping block for religious discrimination - so as long as we don't lie down and let that kind of thing happen, and educate the public in a positive way, things will change in time.

Faith, Family, Frith,

Kimberley

Persecution:

Middle Ages
While the early Christianization of the Goths, the Irish, the Franks and the Alamanni was achieved by peaceful missionary activity, facilitated by the prestige of the Christian Roman Empire among European pagans, in the Middle Ages, conversion of remaining Germanic pagans was less peaceful. Charlemagne in the 8th century converted Saxon pagans by force. In 772 he destroyed their Irminsul, and in 782 he ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxon nobles who refused baptism.

The Christianization of Northern Europe in the 11th century was accompanied with some violence between Pagan and Christian factions. The conflict was brought to a point between the pagan king Blot-Sweyn and his christian brother-in-law Ingold in the 1180s. After Ingold was forced into exile, he returned to Sweden in 1087, and having arrived at Old Uppsala, he surrounded the hall of Blot-Sweyn with his housecarls, and set the hall on fire, slaying the king as he escaped from the burning house. The burning of the Temple at Uppsala probably dates to the same time. This particular conflict resembles the classical feud of Norse Saga more than religious fanaticism. In 10th century Iceland, there was similar tension between Christian and the Pagan factions, but violent clashes were avoided by the decision of the Althing 1000 AD to put the arbitration between them to Þorgeir Ljósvetningagoði, who opted that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, while pagan worship in private remained tolerated.

In for instance Gutalagen (an early Swedish law book) officially in use until 1595, but in practice until 1645, performing blóts was punishable by a fine.[1]

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Nazi Persecution
Although far less hostile to Pagan beliefs than to Judaism, the Nazis was indeed negative to all alternative religions and only German Christians was allowed. Throughout the Third Reich and lands that came under Nazi rule, Nazi totalitarianism demanded that all religious activity conform to the desires of Nazi leadership. Some adherents of the Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft ended up in concentration camps. This ran counter to currents of Nazi mysticism that played an important part in the early times of Nazism. This change of focus during the 1930 also led to the marginalization of Rudolf Hess.

The Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft was heavily suppressed by the Nazis in the 1930s and in 1933 the leader of GGG Rudolf von Sebettendorff was arrested and exiled. Being a current or former membership of an Odinist organisation disqualified anyone from holding rank or office within NSDAP. In 1936 the runemaster Friedrich Barnharb Marby, a follower of Guido von List's occult "ariosophic" Armanenschaft was arrested and sent to a concentration camp at Flossenberg. He was released from the Dachau concentration camp in 1945. Many other members ended up in the concentration camps, although as far as can be told only one member was actually killed. The full focus of the state was not aimed at religious minorities until the June 9, 1941 when Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the security police, banned a large number of spiritual practices. The organisations were dissolved, their property confiscated, and many of their leaders arrested. [2] [3]

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Contemporary
Contemporary followers of Germanic Neopaganism like Ásatrú often face hostility from Christian circles. Conversely, some Heathen societies exhibit hostility towards Christianity.

In November 10, 1999 the International Asatru/Odinic Alliance (IAOA) charged the FBI with violating it's First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, free speech, and peaceful assembly. The reason was numerous false statements and innuendos about the group made in the FBI's "Project Megiddo" report. [4]

Anti-Defamation League publish a list of symbols used by anti-Semitic groups. After a letter campaign pointing out that some of these symbols are also used in contexts unrelated to Neo-Nazism by Germanic Neopagans, the ADL included a disclaimer on their site to that effect.

In Texas the Texas Department of Criminal Justice don't allow inmates to study or use the runes in any way. First they were not allowed to receive publications that contain runes, but after the runes were cut out the policy was changed so that inmates may not receive any Asatru publications. The prison authorities claim runes are are related to hate groups and used as 'secret codes' for communications between gang members. [5]

According to Mark Pitcavage, prisons differentiate between racist and non-racist Neopagans, saying that the racist women's group Sigrdrifa, which has chapters in the United States and Canada, runs a special "Odinism in Prison" project. Imprisoned right-wing terrorist David Lane, serving a 190-year sentence in federal prison, is one of the principal propagandists for a violently racist version of Odinism

Somehow it strikes me as a bit odd that Asatru seems to have been labeled rightwing. Ok, I'm lying, it's extremely fucking odd to me.

But I'm guessing the names weren't the only bits that got buggered in the port to the United Bluff?