NationStates Jolt Archive

What's the greatest English football (soccer) club of all time?

I'd like these criteria to be used (you decide how much weight is given to each):

1)European glory (Champions League, UEFA Cup, etc.)
2)Premier League & English 1st Division titles/overall performance
3)FA Cups
4)League/Carling Cups

If you must throw in such subjective things as mystique/reputation/hype/fans, go ahead.

My knowledge of English football history is limited... I only know of three superpowers of English football. Educate me, and share your opinion.

I voted for Liverpool on the strength of their european prowess -- they have 5 champions league titles, which puts them third behind Real Madrid (9) and AC Milan (6).

I know that ManU and Arsenal have had much more success (recently at least) in the premier league. (i'm hoping to bait some arsenal and manu fans -- and all other english fans -- into this debate. hehe)

I going with liverpool as well. Their trophey cabinet is huge and have been a potent force for a great many years, so it really has to be them.

do you want to count sides that played prewar and and early postwar

Liverpool are certainly up there with the best. Aswell as Nottingham Forest who have recently fallen from grace.

Pre-war; Huddersfield Town we're the big boys winning 3 consecutive league titles in a row plus the FA cup and numerous european tournaments.

Liverpool without doubt.

5 European cups, 3 Uefa cups, 3 European super cups, 18 league titles, More league cups than anyone else, I forget how many, and just as many FA cups. No other team even comes close to that record.

And even in recent years when the trophies haven't been coming so thick and fast they've never been far behind.

Although I am a fan of pre-war Huddersfield, that was some classy stuff. Arsenal too, unfortunately.

Man City :p

Has to be Liverpool as even though theyved not been the top dog for last 10 -15 years there still way ahead in europe and in the league; plus even during this so called barren spell theyve still won 6 trophies (not including the supercup and charity shield) and finished on average 3rd or 4th. In 2nd place it has to be the scum i mean man utd; then probably arsenal. Chavski are about 3 light years behind.

Back to Liverpool then; more league titles than anyone else (i get really annoyed by sky etc trying to rewrite history and suggesting football only started when they bought the coverage, premiership records dont count for squat) more league cups than anyone, large number of fa cups and utterly superior record in europe despite man utd being in it for about 12 years running. on a final note i think with the current manager the reds are truly going to back among the big boys, watch this space.

do you want to count sides that played prewar and and early postwar

yeah, all of it -- known English football history.

there are some other teams i have a sense have been successful... can you guys fill me in?

they are:

Aston Villa

Newcastle FC

Notts Forest (for the 2 C-league titles -- i think someone's mentioned them)

West Ham United

Leeds United FC

Finally, have Spurs (Tottenham) ever won anything?

another question:

Where are the London clubs located within London? I'm talking chiefly about the ones I know -- Arsenal, Chelsea, Fulham, Wolves (right?), Crystal Palace, West Brom, West Ham, Tottenham, Charlton.

What are the areas like? For instance, is Chelsea in a super-chic area while Charlton is in a gutter (hehe)?

thanks!

finally (if you don't mind a yank asking stupid questions):

What's the all-time England team. Would Beckham be on it?

and

What are the biggest English rivalries? I've heard it said by one Englishman that it's the Merseyside Derby -- Everton/Liverpool.

As a neutral towards the English game, I would have to say that Liverpool is the top English club.

Manchester united have only won 2 European Cups. Arsenal have not won any. Chelsea has not yet won any, but will undoubtedly do so in the near future. Nottinghman Forest have suffered a severe fall from grace...

So the only alternative is Liverpool. Domestically, the most successful (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they've won the most Championships), third on the all-time list of European Cups (we're first :p )... Liverpool have the trophies to back it up, and none of the others really do...

My dad and uncle are Leeds UTD supporters. They used to be very successful - and dominated the league for a while in the 80s. They have always hated Manchester UTD - it was funny, I went to a football match against Everton, and Everton had just beaten Manchester. As a result, there was quite a good atmosphere amongst the fans - the Leeds fans were all getting on with the Everton fans for defeating their rivals. At one point someone in the Everton crowed yelled out "Stand up if you hate Man U". The whole stadium stood up, it was hilarious.

They were relegated to first division a couple of years back however. Shame really.

Liverpool

:) :) :) :) Man City:) :) :) :)

As far as trophys go, then you would say Liverpool, they have one more European Cups, including the one they stole (typical scousers) last year, and they have still won more league titles than anyone else, though the last time they won was 1990.

As far as history, support, average league position over the club's history and for the tradition of playing excellent football Manchester United are the greatest English club. They have had the greatest English player of all time (Bobby Charlton), the greatest Scottish player of all time (Denis Law), the greatest Welsh players of all time (Ryan Giggs and Mark Hughes) and the man who was simply the greatest player of all time (George Best).

The only team ever to complete the treble (League champions, FA Cup Winners and European Cup Winners), the first English team to win the European Cup, the first team to do the double twice, the first English club to win a European trophy after they were re-admitted in the 90/91 season, the Munich air crash...

History makes a club, winning trophys adds to the history but Manchester United are simply the greatest football club in the world. (A history of fascism means Real Madrid cannot ever be considered as that).

yeah, all of it -- known English football history.

there are some other teams i have a sense have been successful... can you guys fill me in?
they are:
Aston Villa
Newcastle FC
Notts Forest (for the 2 C-league titles -- i think someone's mentioned them)
West Ham United
Leeds United FC
Finally, have Spurs (Tottenham) ever won anything?
Aston Villa: won the first ever League Cup, a European Cup in 1980 (around then at least, check if you want), and have maybe 4 or 5 titles, plus a couple of FA Cups.
Newcaslte United: won jack shit for the best part of a century. Last won the league in, I believe, 1927. Runners up in the FA Cup twice in the last ten years, and once in the league in that period.
Nottingham Forest: were good in the 1970s, under Cloughie (RIP). Shit apart from that. Currently in 'League One' (recently division 2, previously division 3).
West Ham United: provided the backbone of the 1966 World Cup Final team, won a few titles and a few cups. Have the record for scoring in the most consecutive European matches (27, 1964-1980). Have been in and out of the Premiership in the last few years.
Leeds United: not won anything since the 1970s, I think. Google them and check their history if you want. Currently in the Championship (recently division one, previously division 2).
Spurs have indeed won stuff - a few title, cups etc. Did the double (league plus FA Cup) in 1961, or thereabouts. Poor performance in Europe.

another question:

Where are the London clubs located within London? I'm talking chiefly about the ones I know -- Arsenal, Chelsea, Fulham, Wolves (right?), Crystal Palace, West Brom, West Ham, Tottenham, Charlton.

What are the areas like? For instance, is Chelsea in a super-chic area while Charlton is in a gutter (hehe)?

thanks!
In order - north (although originally from the Woolwich, which is in South London); west; west (about 250 yards from Chelsea. Chelsea is technically in Fulham); Wolves is short for Wolverhampton Wanderers. Wolverhampton is in the midlands :p (sorry for taking the piss);south (I think, maybe south-east); West Brom are in Birmingham (:p);east (east end in fact); north (Arsenal's arch-rivals); east.
Chelsea (or rather Chelsea and Kensington, the area they're 'from') is a rich area - you'd better have about £3 million ($5m) if you want a house there. Fulham is fairly well-off. The rest are average middle/working class areas, Arsenal and Tottenham being in slightly more prosperous areas.

Where is Real Madrid!!!:D

As for the actual question: Liverpool. More league titles, more European trophies (English clubs have won ten European Cups. Liverpool have 5 by themselves), 3rd most FA Cups (I think, behind Man United and Arsenal). Most points accumulated in their league history. Ok, recently they haven't been so good, apart from the European Cup in May, the FA Cup, League Cup and the UEFA Cup in 2001, the Super Cup in 2001, the Intercontinental Cup in 2001...oh, hang on...:p (I'm an Arsenal fan, btw).
Man United, for their 2 European Cups (same as Nottingham Forest), and numerous titles and FA Cups.
Arsenal for their titles, cups, and for the longest unbroken period in the top flight of English football (currently 86 years). Arsenal have never finished below 14th in the top division. Also, their achievement in the 2003/04 season of going unbeaten for an entire domestic season.

I'd say, in order - Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United.

Where is Real Madrid!!!:D

In Spain. :rolleyes:

Where is Real Madrid!!!:D In Spain. :rolleyes:
Madrid, to be precise. The Santiago Bernabeu, to be even more precise. If you want a postal address, there's probably one on their website.

Nottingham Forest F.C, was managed by God, nuff said.

2 Europian cups on the bounce, only English team to do so, rose from bottom of the 2nd devision to win the league adn Europian cup within 3 years. Managed by God...

Hmm, in terms of trophies Liverpool are numerically the best, though I don't rate some of their earlier European cups since the other teams in them were so rubbish.

Domestically they've won more League titles, but Man Utd have won more FA cups, so that'd even it out.

All the Liverpool fans I've met are always extremely biased hypocritical and arrogant, so I've developed a healthy dislike of the club.

Man Utd overall, for the past greats, the style of football, only club to win the treble,

Nottingham Forest: were good in the 1970s, under Cloughie (RIP). Shit apart from that. Currently in 'League One' (recently division 2, previously division 3).

Actaully we where 3rd in the league in 1995 and where consitantlyly in the top flight from 1979 to 1993, we went down for 1 season, where fired up by Stan the man, and remianed there until we went down in 1998. Since then we've been in decline thanks to platt and Joke Kennier.

We are also the 3rd oldest team in the league, and the 5th or 6th most successful. We had the glory days before 1959, which culminated in league and cup wins. Unfortuntly our ametur only stance left us in trouble and we where religated. We came back upseveral times, before staying up for almost 20 years under God.

If it's history that counts, then we have to be one of the oldest, and greatest teams around.

Notts Forest (for the 2 C-league titles -- i think someone's mentioned them)


Forest History (From Wikipedia, plus I added a few bits myself.
Nottingham Forest are often referred to as simply 'Florist', the title the club carries on its badge. They were founded in 1865 shortly after their neighbours Notts County, which is the oldest club in the football league.

Nottingham Forest were considered a small team by English league standards until the mid 1970s. The team then excelled through the English league system under the influence of their manager Brian Clough, winning the old First Division Championship in 1978. Forest then went on to win the European Cup twice in succession; they also won the European Super Cup, which was then held between the winners of the European Champions' Cup and the European Cup Winners' Cup. During the same period the club also won four League Cups.

Except for 1949-1951, they were in either the FA Premier League (or old First Division) or the new Football League Championship (old Sencond Division) from their joining the League in 1892 until 2005. They were last relegated from the Premier League in 1999.

Nottingham Forest's charitable approach to the sport helped teams like Arsenal and Brighton & Hove Albion to come into existence. Forest donated their football kits to Arsenal to help them establish themselves - the London side still wear red. Forest also helped secure a site to play on for Brighton.

Trophy list of NFFC: (Copyed out of last nights match programm,)
European Cup winners 1979, 1980
FA Cup winners 1898, 1959
Football League champions 1978
Football League Cup winners 1978, 1979, 1989, 1990
European Super Cup winners 1980
FA Charity Shield winners 1978
Football League First Division champions 1998 (new First Division)
Football League Second Division champions 1907, 1922 (old Second Division)
Football League Third Division South champions 1951
Football Alliance champions 1892
Anglo-Scottish Cup winners
Full Members Cup winners 1989, 1992

Hmm, in terms of trophies Liverpool are numerically the best, though I don't rate some of their earlier European cups since the other teams in them were so rubbish.
You can only beat who you were up against. 3 European Cups in 5 years (sorry Aust, Liverpool won two in two years in 1977 and 1978), and 4 in 7 demonstrates a dominance of European football so great it wouldn't matter how good other teams were.

Domestically they've won more League titles, but Man Utd have won more FA cups, so that'd even it out.
No. League titles are far harder to win than domestic cups. Form over a whole season is a lot more difficult to maintain than over a series of one-off matches played weeks apart.

All the Liverpool fans I've met are always extremely biased hypocritical and arrogant, so I've developed a healthy dislike of the club.
Every football fan is biased and hypocritical, ignoring their own side's faults while pointing out the faults at other clubs. And 18 league titles and 5 European cups allow a degree of arrogance, I feel.

Man Utd overall, for the past greats, the style of football, only club to win the treble
Liverpool have just as many past greats, both manager and players - Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish for managers.
Aldridge, Barnes, Beardsley, Clemence, Dalglish, Gerrard, Grobbelaar, Hansen, Houghton, Hughes, Ince, Keegan, Kennedy, Lawrenson, McDermott, Marsh, Neal, Nicol, Owen, Rush, St. John, Saunders, Smith, Souness, Staunton, Toshack...
Style of football? Ever seen Arsenal play at their best?
Matt Busby was a Liverpool player as well.

as a United fan, i am obligated to say them, but Liverpool do run them very very close and i can fully understand why many would put them as the very best. if we are only gonna have 3 clubs on the list, then i don't think Arsenal should be one of them as they have been successful but overall ahve not gotten anywhere near the success of United or Liverpool, maybe you should have considered Preston North End :p

You can only beat who you were up against. 3 European Cups in 5 years (sorry Aust, Liverpool won two in two years in 1977 and 1978), and 4 in 7 demonstrates a dominance of European football so great it wouldn't matter how good other teams were.

My mistake, I apologise.

You'll never walk alone!

Well that made my position clear I trust...

Spurs (Tottenham) ever won anything?

They got the first ever double (1st place in the League and FA cup) in history and had a great team until half of it died in one year (lightning got one of them, talk about shitty luck...)

You'll never walk alone!

Well that made my position clear I trust...



They got the first ever double (1st place in the League and FA cup) in history and had a great team until half of it died in one year (lightning got one of them, talk about shitty luck...)
Your a Everton fan I trust? j/k

Your a Everton fan I trust? j/k

Sign on! Sign on! With hope in your heart, caus you'll NEVER get a job! :D

Sign on! Sign on! With hope in your heart, caus you'll NEVER get a job! :D
IU'm a Forest support adn you know it....1-0 1-0 1-0

Your a Everton fan I trust? j/k

Ooooh if I meet you you're gettin' such a beating...:mad:

Please take that in the spirit it was intended, please.

Arsenal is so great

(A history of fascism means Real Madrid cannot ever be considered as that).

Typical bitterness. Keep in mind that Real Madrid did not choose to be supported by Franco. If he had supported Barcelona, we would be talking about Barcelona as 'fascists.'

The trophies say that Real Madrid are the best there ever was.

Typical bitterness. Keep in mind that Real Madrid did not choose to be supported by Franco. If he had supported Barcelona, we would be talking about Barcelona as 'fascists.'

The trophies say that Real Madrid are the best there ever was.

shame your now run by a bloke who knows sod all about the game (perez) hes also managed to sour my opinion of a club I always admired.

While I realistically know in my heart of hearts that they never have (and on the form shown this season, probably never will) equalled the trophy-winning record of more famous teams, I just thought I'd register a nod to the team I support - Portsmouth - for holding the FA Cup for more consecutive years than any other team in the history of that famous trophy.

Cynics will no doubt point out that winning the cup in 1939 and then not having to defend it for six years due to that minor upset with Herr Hitler somehow tarnishes the achievement, but hey, sometimes you have to make the best of the hand that life deals you.

Other than that, there's only the two consecutive championships won shortly after the war, but until last year that was twice as many championships as Chelsea had won. Once again, small consolation, but you take what you can get.

You'll never walk alone!

Well that made my position clear I trust...



They [Spurs] got the first ever double (1st place in the League and FA cup) in history and had a great team until half of it died in one year (lightning got one of them, talk about shitty luck...)
Apart from Preston (1889) and Aston Villa (1897), Spurs did indeed get the 'first ever' double. :p

as a United fan, i am obligated to say them, but Liverpool do run them very very close and i can fully understand why many would put them as the very best. if we are only gonna have 3 clubs on the list, then i don't think Arsenal should be one of them as they have been successful but overall ahve not gotten anywhere near the success of United or Liverpool, maybe you should have considered Preston North End :p
In terms of trophies won, Arsenal are the third best English team, after Liverpool and Manchester United. In terms of European success, they're behind Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa (as they've both won the European Cup), and at least on a par with all other teams. European form isn't necessarily a good judge though, as if the European Cup had started in 1900, it's likely that Arsenal would have won it, in the 1930s, and probably Huddersfield would have won it in the 1920s.
Arsenal have the third most league titles in English football (13), after Liverpool (18) and Man United (15). They have the second most FA Cups (10), behind Man United (11). They have the record for most consecutive games unbeaten in the top flight (49), and most consecutive top flight games scored in. They were the first team in 116 years to go unbeaten in a season of top flight football, in what is a more competitive game now than it was when Preston managed it.
These are all facts, and they show that Arsenal are close to Manchester United and Liverpool in terms of domestic success.

Tamworth lambs!

In terms of trophies won, Arsenal are the third best English team, after Liverpool and Manchester United. In terms of European success, they're behind Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa (as they've both won the European Cup), and at least on a par with all other teams. European form isn't necessarily a good judge though, as if the European Cup had started in 1900, it's likely that Arsenal would have won it, in the 1930s, and probably Huddersfield would have won it in the 1920s.
Arsenal have the third most league titles in English football (13), after Liverpool (18) and Man United (15). They have the second most FA Cups (10), behind Man United (11). They have the record for most consecutive games unbeaten in the top flight (49), and most consecutive top flight games scored in. They were the first team in 116 years to go unbeaten in a season of top flight football, in what is a more competitive game now than it was when Preston managed it.
These are all facts, and they show that Arsenal are close to Manchester United and Liverpool in terms of domestic success.

my mistake my friend, i blame my massive hatred of Arsenal :p

Ooooh if I meet you you're gettin' such a beating...:mad:

Please take that in the spirit it was intended, please.
Taken in that spirt freind, wonder why out Banthams fan never replied...

shame your now run by a bloke who knows sod all about the game (perez) hes also managed to sour my opinion of a club I always admired.

I agree with you completely. Perez is a maniac and his idea of the 'galacticos' is just stupid.

Oh, what I would give for another Fernando Hierro... :rolleyes:

Millwall, but only for the chants.

Ipswich Town FC.

The Tractor Boys are clearly the best.

[Man Utd was] the first English club to win a European trophy after they were re-admitted in the 90/91 season

That's true, but I bet it's not in the way you meant it.

That's true, but I bet it's not in the way you meant it.
And who cause us to be thrown out?....

okay, which of these is the more illustrious/famous/accomplished Enbglish club:

Aston Villa or Newcastle FC?

okay, which of these is the more illustrious/famous/accomplished Enbglish club:

Aston Villa or Newcastle FC?
Villa. THEY'VE ACTAULLY WON SOMTHING!

Ipswich Town FC.

The Tractor Boys are clearly the best.

Oo-Ar!

I could just hear then singing Wurzels songs too...

Villa. THEY'VE ACTAULLY WON SOMTHING!

follow-up question:

Is Shearer still good enough to be an England forward?

You can only beat who you were up against. 3 European Cups in 5 years (sorry Aust, Liverpool won two in two years in 1977 and 1978), and 4 in 7 demonstrates a dominance of European football so great it wouldn't matter how good other teams were.
You can only beat who you're up against, but you judge the competition by the entrants, dominance over clubs (for example, the hardest team they had in one cup was Club Brugge from Belgium, who aren't exactly great)

Man Utd have won many more cups (I think, not got the stats to hand) than Liverpool, who've only won three more than United, hence the cancellation.



Every football fan is biased and hypocritical, ignoring their own side's faults while pointing out the faults at other clubs. And 18 league titles and 5 European cups allow a degree of arrogance, I feel.
The Liverpool ones Ive met were always worse than the other clubs, they seemed to believe they had a divine right to win everything, and were never even nearly realistic, they always seemed surprised when they didn't win every competition.

Other supporters actually looked reasonably at there team, and most of them made reasonable predictions etc, I've only ever met one Liverpool fan to do that. Call it personal experience and completely unscientific, but there it is.


Liverpool have just as many past greats, both manager and players - Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish for managers.
Aldridge, Barnes, Beardsley, Clemence, Dalglish, Gerrard, Grobbelaar, Hansen, Houghton, Hughes, Ince, Keegan, Kennedy, Lawrenson, McDermott, Marsh, Neal, Nicol, Owen, Rush, St. John, Saunders, Smith, Souness, Staunton, Toshack...
Style of football? Ever seen Arsenal play at their best?
Matt Busby was a Liverpool player as well.I was comparing to Liverpool, who more often than not played very boring football.

follow-up question:

Is Shearer still good enough to be an England forward?
Not any more, he was when he retired but not now.

You can only beat who you're up against, but you judge the competition by the entrants, dominance over clubs (for example, the hardest team they had in one cup was Club Brugge from Belgium, who aren't exactly great)

Man Utd have won many more cups (I think, not got the stats to hand) than Liverpool, who've only won three more than United, hence the cancellation.



The Liverpool ones Ive met were always worse than the other clubs, they seemed to believe they had a divine right to win everything, and were never even nearly realistic, they always seemed surprised when they didn't win every competition.

Other supporters actually looked reasonably at there team, and most of them made reasonable predictions etc, I've only ever met one Liverpool fan to do that. Call it personal experience and completely unscientific, but there it is.

I was comparing to Liverpool, who more often than not played very boring football.

sorry but your talking a lot of tripe, if liverpool fans are so egotistical then why are they well known for being, knowledgable ang grat SUPPORTers of there team. While man utd are known for attracting prawn sandwich eating pillocks who know nothing and call for an all time great manager to be sacked...hmmmmmm

and liverpool sides have played some of the finest football ever seen in this country, decades before wenger arrived on these shores, liverpool where playing a quality passing game with a team full of players good on the ball, in ALL positions (alan hanson in defence, need i say more). Since the 60s Liverpool have tried to combine theb est of british and continental football styles; hence WHY they did so well in Europe. trying to belittle those achivements shows that we are the greatest, hencve your sour grapes; I freely admit man utd where the team of the 90s by far. You dont seem to want admit how good liverpool have been for football.


BTW are you Andy Gray in disguise? LOL

And who cause us to be thrown out?....

I think you misunderstand. Man U's Champions League win in 1999 was not the first European title after English clubs were readmitted.

Chelsea won the Cup Winner's cup in 1998 and Arsenal in 1994. But Man Utd won the same trophy in 1991, thus making the statement true. But I suspect not in the way it was intended.

On the Liverpool thing: Liverpool fan are known for being great fans, passionate and knowlagable. BUT they are also known for ebing arragant and big-headed. They seem tho have this menatlity tbhat Liverpool must win everything.

Liverpool players played great football, they played 'Forest football' passing it along the ground and playing good quick stuff. however, like there fans they are known for being big headed and arrogant.

well i think your being very harsh but hey

Manchester United, simply because, irrespective of Liverpool's success, they did it using boring, tedious and efficient football, whereas the great united sides comprised charismatic players, genius's, and flair (Best, Charlton, Law, Cantona, Robson, Keane, Giggs, Beckham (maybe, never liked him personally), Rooney et al.).

And why are the Arse on there, when have they won anything in Europe... or... anything at all.:p

Sheffield Wednesday. All the way. League winners 1911 oldest proffesional team still in existance.

Manchester United, simply because, irrespective of Liverpool's success, they did it using boring, tedious and efficient football, whereas the great united sides comprised charismatic players, genius's, and flair (Best, Charlton, Law, Cantona, Robson, Keane, Giggs, Beckham (maybe, never liked him personally), Rooney et al.).

And why are the Arse on there, when have they won anything in Europe... or... anything at all.:p
Oh, Jesus f*cking Christ. Liverpool did not play 'boring, tedious and efficient football'. They played some of the best attacking football of their era, just like Arsenal do today.
The great United sides did indeed have some great players, but then Liverpool also had great players. Look at my list in an earlier post. By the way, I don't know why you've included Rooney. Great player, perhaps, but he's never been in a 'great United side'. In fact, he's in the worst United side since the early 1990s. And furthermore, he hasn't won anything at United. He signed in August 2004 - their last trophy was the 2004 FA Cup, won in May 2004.
And drop the anti-Arsenal comments. 13 league titles, 10 FA Cups, the English record for longest unbeaten league run, and successfully managing to go unbeaten for an entire league season makes them one of the best English clubs ever. United never went unbeaten.

Oh, Jesus f*cking Christ. Liverpool did not play 'boring, tedious and efficient football'. They played some of the best attacking football of their era, just like Arsenal do today.
The great United sides did indeed have some great players, but then Liverpool also had great players. Look at my list in an earlier post. By the way, I don't know why you've included Rooney. Great player, perhaps, but he's never been in a 'great United side'. In fact, he's in the worst United side since the early 1990s. And furthermore, he hasn't won anything at United. He signed in August 2004 - their last trophy was the 2004 FA Cup, won in May 2004.
And drop the anti-Arsenal comments. 13 league titles, 10 FA Cups, the English record for longest unbeaten league run, and successfully managing to go unbeaten for an entire league season makes them one of the best English clubs ever. United never went unbeaten.

Can you be asking me to be nice to Arsenal,really? The team who fielded an entirely black outfield, and accuse united of not playing English players, the team who throw Pizza when they lose, and employed Patrick Vieira, surely not.

Rooney, incidentally, is already a great, and could well eclipse all other British players this summer, and become the greatest British player since Best.

I was, however, more alluding to the fact that Liverpool have never truly utilised "great" attacking players, nor have they been lauded for it. Whilst Rush, St.Joghn at al were good, they are not comaparable to such players as Cantona, Best, Scholes, Charlton, Law, Best and Robson, nor, for that matter, is the "great Wrighty" of Arsenal.

I absolutely go with Liverpool.


Real, AC Milan and Liverpool -in this order-, the Three Big Ones, the three legends both in monochrome and colour, the Holy Trinity of football.

Preston North End

Oh, Jesus f*cking Christ. Liverpool did not play 'boring, tedious and efficient football'. They played some of the best attacking football of their era, just like Arsenal do today.
The great United sides did indeed have some great players, but then Liverpool also had great players. Look at my list in an earlier post. By the way, I don't know why you've included Rooney. Great player, perhaps, but he's never been in a 'great United side'. In fact, he's in the worst United side since the early 1990s. And furthermore, he hasn't won anything at United. He signed in August 2004 - their last trophy was the 2004 FA Cup, won in May 2004.
And drop the anti-Arsenal comments. 13 league titles, 10 FA Cups, the English record for longest unbeaten league run, and successfully managing to go unbeaten for an entire league season makes them one of the best English clubs ever. United never went unbeaten.
here here on everything you just said; this boring efficient liverpool stuff would be funny if it wasnt so insulting. He seems to be confusing us with the arsenal side of the late 80's. My fave "boring" liverpool game was trouncing a quality spurs side 7-0 in the league in the 70s, ahhhhhhh bisto.

Can you be asking me to be nice to Arsenal,really? The team who fielded an entirely black outfield, and accuse united of not playing English players, the team who throw Pizza when they lose, and employed Patrick Vieira, surely not.

Rooney, incidentally, is already a great, and could well eclipse all other British players this summer, and become the greatest British player since Best.

I was, however, more alluding to the fact that Liverpool have never truly utilised "great" attacking players, nor have they been lauded for it. Whilst Rush, St.Joghn at al were good, they are not comaparable to such players as Cantona, Best, Scholes, Charlton, Law, Best and Robson, nor, for that matter, is the "great Wrighty" of Arsenal.
First bit I've bolded sounds racist...black players can't be English? Ever heard of Sol Campbell or Ashley Cole? Or Ledley King, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Darius Vassell, Jermain Defoe?
Second bit...erm, yes, Arsenal did employ Patrick Vieira. And? He's the best midfielder of his generation. And Cesc Fabregas will be the best midfielder of his generation.
I never said Rooney's not great. I said he has never played in a great United side. Which is true. You cannot call the Manchester United side of the past 15 months 'great'. Great players do not make a great team.
If you were alluding to that, maybe say so, instead of coming out with crap like this:
irrespective of Liverpool's success, they did it using boring, tedious and efficient football
The '"great Wrighty"' you refer to is not Arsenal's best ever player. That would be Thierry Henry. If you want me to list players to compare with the United players you've listed, here we go:
Henry, Bergkamp, Overmars, Sansom, Brady, George, McLintock.

although i am a west ham supporter through and through, you must give us credit, we just come up and are ninth, although wigan came up and are higher than us it is still a great achievement and i hope birmingham go down

Gotta go with Liverpool.

As for them playing dull defensive play incapable of good offence nowadays...Anyone remember what happened to AC Milan?

Besides, good defence is what is needed today.

Coventy "Sky Blues" City

I mean, do I really need to list the reasons;)

People seem to be confusing the 'old' liverpopol with the new Liverpool. And to the untied fans-whos the the knockout stages?

Liverpool have never had any great attacking players? errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr heard of Kenny Dalglish THE greatest Scottish player (Laws second to him I'm afraid). Plus Peter Beardsley and John Barnes where known to be able to string the odd pass together :-P. And btw Ian rush was far more than merely good goal scorer, he was awesome and outscored law by a large margin as well.

Liverpool have never had any great attacking players? errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr heard of Kenny Dalglish THE greatest Scottish player (Laws second to him I'm afraid). Plus Peter Beardsley and John Barnes where known to be able to string the odd pass together :-P. And btw Ian rush was far more than merely good goal scorer, he was awesome and outscored law by a large margin as well.
Aye, it's complete and utter bullshit. You had Stanthe man as well, and fowler. it's like a calling Frest udner clough long ball specialists.

Sheffield Wednesday. All the way. League winners 1911 oldest professional team still in existence.

Sheffield FC is older, I believe... They're doing some special link-up thing with Real Madrid in 2007, linking the oldest club and the best club...

Sheffield FC is older, I believe... They're doing some special link-up thing with Real Madrid in 2007, linking the oldest club and the best club...
But not professinal.

I cannot believe Tranmere Rovers hasn't been mentioned <G>

Oldest professional team is Notts County - formed 1862, turned professional 1864. Sheffield Wednesday formed in 1867 and turned professional in 1887. Sheffield United formed in 1889 and turned professional in 1892.

Nottingham Forest, formed 1866 Sorry where older than both team other than Shity

sorry but your talking a lot of tripe, if liverpool fans are so egotistical then why are they well known for being, knowledgable ang grat SUPPORTers of there team. While man utd are known for attracting prawn sandwich eating pillocks who know nothing and call for an all time great manager to be sacked...hmmmmmm
The main ones I've heard calling Liverpool fans knowledgable and great supporters, are Liverpool fans, Man Utd have been hated for the past decade or so because they were so successful, as Chelsea are beginning to be now, and that hatred is including the fans, like I said, out of the football fans I have met/seen on message boards, Liverpool's are the most arrogant and annoying (How many Liverpool fans called for Benitez to be sacked after losing 2-0 to Fulham, the season after he'd won the CL with them, I'll tell you, lots) hmmmm

(and is there something wrong with prawn sandwiches?)

and liverpool sides have played some of the finest football ever seen in this country, decades before wenger arrived on these shores, liverpool where playing a quality passing game with a team full of players good on the ball, in ALL positions (alan hanson in defence, need i say more). Since the 60s Liverpool have tried to combine theb est of british and continental football styles; hence WHY they did so well in Europe.
Being the best of a bad bunch (as they were in the example I gave you where they never faced a really good team) isn't great, times when they won against quality sides were, but that wasn't always the case


trying to belittle those achivements shows that we are the greatest, hencve your sour grapes; I freely admit man utd where the team of the 90s by far. You dont seem to want admit how good liverpool have been for football.

If Liverpool always played such open attractive football, why was it that when the 3 points for a win rule was brought in, did they think it would hurt Liverpool because they drew so many games?

I'm an annoying American who says Liverpool because I'm a Beatles fan.

I'm an annoying American who says Liverpool because I'm a Beatles fan.
Guessed so.