NationStates Jolt Archive


"Hang them! Hang them! Hang Rebekkah! Punish her! Kill Rebekkah! Hang her!"

Eutrusca
05-12-2005, 22:45
COMMENTARY: Picture an enraged mob of Christians surrounding a courtroom and demanding the death of Muslims who were offering children t-shirts.


T-Shirt Flap Pits Jihadists Against
Sunday School Teachers (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200512/SPE20051205a.html)


By Sherrie Gossett
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
December 05, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - Three Indonesian women sentenced to prison for the "Christianization" of Muslim children have lost their appeal, and observers of the courtroom drama blame Muslim extremists who threatened to kill the judges if they didn't hand down a guilty verdict.

The case is seen as a disturbing sign of the spread of radical Islam in Indonesia, a popular tourist destination known for having a large, moderate Muslim population and for being an important ally of the United States in the war on terror.

The controversy began on May 13 when medical doctor Rebekkah Zakaria and two of her friends were arrested and charged with "Christianization" of several Muslim children who attended their "Happy Week" Sunday school class.

The Muslim children were required to get permission from their parents to attend the class, and those without permission were sent home, according to the women's attorney, Posma Radjaguguk.

The charges were brought by a government-funded council of Muslim clerics. According to the U.S. State Department, the women were charged after community members complained that free pencil boxes and T-shirts were given to the children.

When the trial began on June 30, truckloads of jihadists thronged the district court of Indramayu demanding that Zakaria and her two co-defendants be killed. They reportedly brought coffins to the courthouse to underscore the threat.

"Hang them! Hang them! Hang Rebekkah!" the crowd shouted.

"If Rebekkah asks forgiveness and enters Islam, will you forgive her?" a protest leader asked while shouting through a megaphone.

"No! No! Punish her! Kill Rebekkah! Hang her!" the crowd responded.

The threats and the ensuing chaos were caught on a chilling video obtained by a Christian aid organization (Voice of the Martyrs -- VOM) and given to Cybercast News Service.

On Sept. 1, the three-judge panel declared the women guilty and sentenced them to three years in prison. The courtroom erupted with loud shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" (Allah is Great).

Zakaria along with Mrs Eti Pangesti and Mrs. Ratna Bangun were charged under the controversial Child Protection Act, ratified in 2002. The act forbids the coercion of minors to change their religion. Those convicted face five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

Critics consider the act a violation of the Indonesian Constitution, which provides for "all persons the right to worship, according to his or her own religion or belief."

As evidence of "coercion," the prosecutor at the trial presented six church T-shirts. The defendants had given the T-shirts to all 100 children they were taking on a field trip to "Sea World" in Jakarta, including six Muslim children.

The women said they thought having the children wear same-colored shirts would make it easier to keep track of them.

The prosecutor also brought forward children singing as "evidence." The children who had attended "Happy Week" were asked to sing the songs they learned in the class.

When one child sang "Jesus is the vine, we are the branches," Muslims in the courtroom again demanded that the women be killed, according to witnesses and video provided to Cybercast News Service by VOM.

On Nov. 30, the women lost their appeal. "For supporters, this was really distressing," said Jim Jacobson, president of Christian Freedom International. "Either the court was intimidated or something else happened." The women have one appeal left.

Since late 1998, thousands of Indonesians have been killed in sectarian fighting. The island-nation also has been plagued by separatist and inter-ethnic violence, with poverty and politics playing a role. In 2000, the Laskar Jihad group announced its intention of "cleansing" certain islands of all Christians.

The violence against Christians includes kidnappings, rapes, bombings, beheadings, machete attacks, and arson. The jihadists also reportedly have threatened Christians with "convert or die" demands.

Some adults and children who convert out of fear are allegedly forced to undergo circumcisions with rusty, crude implements and without anesthesia, according to media reports.

"Not many people cared until recently, when reports suggested that Laskar Jihad has ties with al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden," stated a report by GlobalSecurity.org.

Saudi funding for the spread of Wahabbist mosques and imams is primarily to blame for the spread of radical Islam in the area, said Christopher Brown, a research associate with the Hudson Institute, a non-partisan policy think tank in Washington, D.C.

According to Brown, it is all part of al Qaeda's global plan for the re-establishment of an Islamic empire that would stretch from Spain to Indonesia. The methods being used to achieve that goal have historical roots.

A 2005 report issued by the State Department stated that the majority of Muslim organizations in Indonesia opposed implementation of an Islamist state. But analysts said the infiltration of radical Islam into top government ranks has already occurred.

"If one percent of the Muslim population there supports this [jihadist ideology], you're talking about at least 1 million people," said Brown. Those figures are echoed by GlobalSecurity.org estimates, which indicate that 20 percent (over 42 million) of the nation's Muslim population (approximately 212 million, according to the CIA's July 2005 estimates) describe themselves as fundamentalists and of those, 2 to 4 percent support using violence to usher in a Taliban-style Islamist state.
Tactical Grace
05-12-2005, 22:48
It Could Happen Here. :eek:
Eutrusca
05-12-2005, 22:52
It Could Happen Here. :eek:
Only if the US somehow became an Islamic State. :rolleyes:
Lunatic Goofballs
05-12-2005, 22:53
This is what happens when more than two people worship the same god. :(
Tactical Grace
05-12-2005, 22:54
Only if the US somehow became an Islamic State. :rolleyes:
Well hey, in your country you had pro-war protests. If that's not a sign of a society one step away from barbarism, I don't know what is.
Sumamba Buwhan
05-12-2005, 22:56
This is what happens when more than two people worship the same god. :(


exactly - that's why I make up a new and exciting "God" every day to worship.
Ifreann
05-12-2005, 22:56
Only if the US somehow became an Islamic State. :rolleyes:
<.<
>.>
Sumamba Buwhan
05-12-2005, 22:58
Well hey, in your country you had pro-war protests. If that's not a sign of a society one step away from barbarism, I don't know what is.


You're just jealous that people from your country aren't coming together in large groups to protest peace!
Neo Mishakal
05-12-2005, 23:03
Christianity and Islam are BOTH evil death cults that need to be destroyed in all forms!:sniper: :mp5:
Omni Conglomerates
05-12-2005, 23:04
Two faiths, Islam and Christianity, and they have historically worshipped the same God. The problem is that same God is two different beings if you listen to how He is described by a Christian and a Muslim. They are quite destined for conflict. The qualities of God are a very touchy subject.

Indonesia has got its problems. These new surges in violence only mean more poverty, disease, destruction, and death for those who are caught in the middle. I wonder if those causing the violence stop to realize that they help nothing turning to the sword, or are they simply too caught up in they "righteous" hatred of their enemies to be bothered by such petty matters?
Smunkeeville
05-12-2005, 23:25
:eek: that's super scary

(considering the fact that my husband and I have been considering going into missions)
Eutrusca
05-12-2005, 23:28
Well hey, in your country you had pro-war protests. If that's not a sign of a society one step away from barbarism, I don't know what is.
Then you don't know what it is. :)
Sinuhue
05-12-2005, 23:30
:eek: that's super scary

(considering the fact that my husband and I have been considering going into missions)
Not in Indonesia, surely? This persecution of Christians is not a recent development, by any means.
Thekalu
05-12-2005, 23:30
I just wanna go and smack everyone involved with that,everyone the judge,the defendants,the angry mob just smack em' all at the same time with a giant smacking machine :p
Eutrusca
05-12-2005, 23:34
... or are they simply too caught up in they "righteous" hatred of their enemies to be bothered by such petty matters?
Probably.

My personal take on the relationship between Isalm and Christianity is that Islam retained far more of the "vengence" and patriarcal aspects of the early Jewish faith than did Chrisianity. They have always been on a collision course.
Eutrusca
05-12-2005, 23:35
:eek: that's super scary

(considering the fact that my husband and I have been considering going into missions)
Are you prepared to become a martyr for your faith? If not, I don't recommend becoming a missionary, especially not to a Muslim nation.
Sinuhue
05-12-2005, 23:45
Probably.

My personal take on the relationship between Isalm and Christianity is that Islam retained far more of the "vengence" and patriarcal aspects of the early Jewish faith than did Chrisianity. They have always been on a collision course.
There has always been religious strife. Look at Hindus and Muslims in India (pre and post partition)...look at the Crusades...and then the massacre of Christian Armenians in Turkey...religion is used as an excuse, like political affiliation, or skin colour. I doubt you could really say that historically, Islam is responsible for more atrocities than Christianity...or other religions.
Callisdrun
05-12-2005, 23:57
Religious fundamentalism strikes again. [sigh] Why does everyone think that their god wants them to kill anybody who disagrees with them? Well, not everyone, but so many stupid fundies.

[slight sarcasm] Smunkee, please don't become a missionary. I like you, but if you showed up at my door, you'd still be given the "missionary treatment" (this does not include murder, but it might include having to listen to a description of heathen pagan religion and participation in evil heathen rituals which will make you go to hell forever) [/slight sarcasm]
Ma-tek
06-12-2005, 00:09
Since most mainstream religions preach (if not practice) non-violence, then saying that any person associated with said who does practice violence is a 'fundie' is rather flawed.

Violent religious persons of any variety are, generally speaking, radicals. Since a fundamentalist is someone who believes, traditionally, in the 'original' (ie what they believe to be original) writings and beliefs of their particular system of belief, it's rather insulting to insinuate that anyone who does so is in fact a zealot out to kill everyone on the planet in an orgy of bloodthirsty violence.

So, radicals, please. Not fundies.

After all, religion or faith or philosophy is not a group of people; it is an ideal, or a group of ideals, or a group of beliefs and ideals, or any mix thereof. A concept when viewed externally, and a truth when viewed internally, as it were.
Eruantalon
06-12-2005, 00:11
Well hey, in your country you had pro-war protests. If that's not a sign of a society one step away from barbarism, I don't know what is.
Ermm, this? (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200512/SPE20051205a.html)
UpwardThrust
06-12-2005, 00:12
Since most mainstream religions preach (if not practice) non-violence, then saying that any person associated with said who does practice violence is a 'fundie' is rather flawed.

Violent religious persons of any variety are, generally speaking, radicals. Since a fundamentalist is someone who believes, traditionally, in the 'original' (ie what they believe to be original) writings and beliefs of their particular system of belief, it's rather insulting to insinuate that anyone who does so is in fact a zealot out to kill everyone on the planet in an orgy of bloodthirsty violence.

So, radicals, please. Not fundies.
In that sense ... wouldent everyone that follows a religion be considered a "fundie"
As I am sure just about all of them believe they are following the origional intent of their belief system?
UpwardThrust
06-12-2005, 00:13
Ermm, this? (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200512/SPE20051205a.html)
I think we knew about that one already:rolleyes:
Eutrusca
06-12-2005, 00:25
There has always been religious strife. Look at Hindus and Muslims in India (pre and post partition)...look at the Crusades...and then the massacre of Christian Armenians in Turkey...religion is used as an excuse, like political affiliation, or skin colour. I doubt you could really say that historically, Islam is responsible for more atrocities than Christianity...or other religions.
And I said this where?
Ma-tek
06-12-2005, 00:25
In that sense ... wouldent everyone that follows a religion be considered a "fundie"
As I am sure just about all of them believe they are following the origional intent of their belief system?

Yeah, pretty much. But for clarity, the majority can be considered the fundamentalists, and the minority radicals, no?
Eutrusca
06-12-2005, 00:25
In that sense ... wouldent everyone that follows a religion be considered a "fundie"
As I am sure just about all of them believe they are following the origional intent of their belief system?
Hardly.
Teh_pantless_hero
06-12-2005, 00:26
Are you prepared to become a martyr for your faith? If not, I don't recommend becoming a missionary, especially not to a Muslim nation.
I wouldn't recommend being a missionary anyway, but that is my opinion.
I would suggest making yourself useful in your community instead of going to random places in the world and bothering them with your religion.
UpwardThrust
06-12-2005, 00:30
Hardly.
I was just following the posters logic ... not that I would call everyone fundie

Just that if the "fundie" moniker gets hung on anyone that feels they are following origional intent of their religion then just about everyone could have that label

Why would someone "follow" a religion by disobeying what they thought god (or creator or whatever) intended origionaly?
Dempublicents1
06-12-2005, 00:32
Are you prepared to become a martyr for your faith? If not, I don't recommend becoming a missionary, especially not to a Muslim nation.

There are certainly safer ways to do missions in a country such as Indonesia. You simply can't be there for the purpose of being a missionary - and you definitely can't dare to use that word to describe yourself. I've known more than one "missionary" who went to various Muslim countries in Southeast Asia. They don't preach to the people there (I don't really think preaching is an effective way to spread your beliefs anyways - preaching really only works on the already converted). They simply go and live among them, with a job that helps the country, or the town, or what-have-you. They befriend those around them and, when religion comes up in conversation, are honest about their religion and are willing to talk about it.

These countries are rather adamant that such religion should not be discussed with children, however, at least not unless their parents are present and are part of the discussion.
UpwardThrust
06-12-2005, 00:34
Yeah, pretty much. But for clarity, the majority can be considered the fundamentalists, and the minority radicals, no?
Theoredicaly

But if the qualifier for the fundie title is just their BELIEF that they are following the origional meaning behind their faith, radicles could also feel that they are folowing the same thing? right

So why are they not called fundies? if they just like everyone else feel they are following the fundiments of their religion
Smunkeeville
06-12-2005, 00:41
Not in Indonesia, surely? This persecution of Christians is not a recent development, by any means.
I will go wherever I get sent.

Are you prepared to become a martyr for your faith?
sure, you have to be ready to do that anyway.


If not, I don't recommend becoming a missionary, especially not to a Muslim nation.

I will go where I am needed, it may turn out that I am most needed here though. Either way, I will do what needs to be done.
Kamsaki
06-12-2005, 00:46
Foolish humans... always blaming the minute differences rather than understanding the gross similarities...

That's why those areas of Islam and Christianity treat each other than dirt.

They're exactly the same.

Blind, ignorant monkeys...
Eutrusca
06-12-2005, 00:53
There are certainly safer ways to do missions in a country such as Indonesia. You simply can't be there for the purpose of being a missionary - and you definitely can't dare to use that word to describe yourself. I've known more than one "missionary" who went to various Muslim countries in Southeast Asia. They don't preach to the people there (I don't really think preaching is an effective way to spread your beliefs anyways - preaching really only works on the already converted). They simply go and live among them, with a job that helps the country, or the town, or what-have-you. They befriend those around them and, when religion comes up in conversation, are honest about their religion and are willing to talk about it.

These countries are rather adamant that such religion should not be discussed with children, however, at least not unless their parents are present and are part of the discussion.
I agree with most of that. The point I was trying to make, however, is that with the rise of radical Islam and the Jihadists who take hostages at a distressing rate, any Christian who becomes a missionary ( whether overtly or not ) in a Moslem state should be prepared to become a martyr to their faith.
Eutrusca
06-12-2005, 00:55
Theoredicaly

But if the qualifier for the fundie title is just their BELIEF that they are following the origional meaning behind their faith, radicles could also feel that they are folowing the same thing? right

So why are they not called fundies? if they just like everyone else feel they are following the fundiments of their religion
Almost any religion is open to "interpretation," particularly those which have been around for millennia, since they often owe their "success" to this very felexibility of interpretation.
UpwardThrust
06-12-2005, 00:59
Almost any religion is open to "interpretation," particularly those which have been around for millennia, since they often owe their "success" to this very felexibility of interpretation.
I agree but I was going with the poster's logic I origionaly quoted (I was trying to expound on why there must be "more" to being fundamentalist then just their belief in following the origional imperitives behind their faith)

So in the end what DOES make a fundamentalist? as I tried to point out it can not be just their personal belief that they were following the origional intent of their faith
The Black Forrest
06-12-2005, 02:07
Foolish humans... always blaming the minute differences rather than understanding the gross similarities...

That's why those areas of Islam and Christianity treat each other than dirt.

They're exactly the same.

Blind, ignorant monkeys...

Hey now!

Don't be insulting Monkeys! :D
Domici
06-12-2005, 02:57
This is what happens when more than two people worship the same god. :(

True. We should take up worship of the Small Gods. As the prophet Terry Pratchett tells us, "they swim, thick as herring roe, waiting for a chance to be heard... What they crave is belief."

That way we can all have our own god. Join the Church of Micro-deism today. Let there be 1,000 voices.
The Cat-Tribe
06-12-2005, 03:14
It Could Happen Here. :eek:

Not if we maintain the wall of separation of Church and State created by the First Amendment!!!

This is a good example of why we must protect that wall!!
Zatarack
06-12-2005, 03:14
Stupid radicals. Why don't they follow examples from earlier times, when the only problem with being a Christian or a Jew in a Muslim state was higher taxes?
Czardas
06-12-2005, 03:35
Hey now!

Don't be insulting Monkeys! :D
I agree, even they are more human! :D
Lovely Boys
06-12-2005, 03:37
Only if the US somehow became an Islamic State. :rolleyes:

Well, its already a Christian Fundamentalist theocracy - anyone who opposes or doesn't fit into the 'great leaders' plan is brutally punished in a hate crime or sent to some 'unknown' prison for 'interrogation with the upmost efficiency'.
Ma-tek
06-12-2005, 03:50
Stupid radicals. Why don't they follow examples from earlier times, when the only problem with being a Christian or a Jew in a Muslim state was higher taxes?

Because we kept invading them. That tends to erode tolerance.
PasturePastry
06-12-2005, 04:33
Such is life. There are so many stories like this, I would just about say let the Christians and the Muslims fight it out like Kilkenny cats and wake me up when there are only the tails left.
Smunkeeville
06-12-2005, 06:01
Well, its already a Christian Fundamentalist theocracy - anyone who opposes or doesn't fit into the 'great leaders' plan is brutally punished in a hate crime or sent to some 'unknown' prison for 'interrogation with the upmost efficiency'.
you don't actually believe that do you?
The Black Forrest
06-12-2005, 06:07
Because we kept invading them. That tends to erode tolerance.

Ahhh the old "I didn't do this; you made me do this" argument.....
Lovely Boys
06-12-2005, 10:16
you don't actually believe that do you?

Condi as already talked about 'unknown prisoners' pass through Europe into a legal blackhole.

Also look how the current administration uses the full aparatice of the state to surpress anyone who speaks out against the government - it makes North Korea look positively democratic.
The Cat-Tribe
06-12-2005, 10:24
Condi as already talked about 'unknown prisoners' pass through Europe into a legal blackhole.

Also look how the current administration uses the full aparatice of the state to surpress anyone who speaks out against the government - it makes North Korea look positively democratic.

WTF are you talking about?


EDIT: I'm the last person to defend this administration. I'm a flaming liberal Democrat who hates Bush. But your posts imply the need for tinfoil hats.
Lashie
06-12-2005, 10:49
<snip> (1st post)



I must admit that things like this scare me
Harlesburg
06-12-2005, 10:50
Well Indonesia is already on my list of nations to be 'Liberated'.