NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi. I'm a Christian, and I really disagree rather strongly with a few of the things, actually a great deal, of the things that the Catholic church says/believes/practices. So I was wondering, in the eyes of the average person, how much does the image of the Catholic chruch affect the image of Christians in general?

I think it depends on how prevalent Catholicism is in your country. In many Christian countries they form the majority, but here in Britain we hsitorically don't get on too well with Catholics (what with the Gunpowder Plot and all that) so they aren't that noticeable.

Hi. I'm a Christian, and I really disagree rather strongly with a few of the things, actually a great deal, of the things that the Catholic church says/believes/practices. So I was wondering, in the eyes of the average person, how much does the image of the Catholic chruch affect the image of Christians in general?
Lemme fire back the converse real quick....considering that the AMERICAN Catholics are largely more liberal than most other denominations of Christianity around here, and I've heard similar cases in parts of the rest of the world, how does the overall image of Christianity bleed over to the portrayal of Catholics? Personally, seems to me that many other sects of Christianity are far worse.

(Let's make this all a little less one-sided if you don't want a flame war with the Catholics)

Catholicism stands way higher than any Protestant denomination.

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?

I also don't understand what you are asking, I mean I have issues with the Catholic church, but then again, I have issues with most protestant denominations (including the one I belong to)

I don't think anyone is 100% right about it yet (not even me) or that we even can be.

I'm thinking of issues like homosexualism, birth control, premarital sex, etc. Catholics frown on all of those. I myself, as a Christian, only frown on one, although I'm very confused and still working out what I beleive concerning homosexualism. There are many, amny more issues that seem to get the Catholic chruch a great deal of criticism, mostly ones that the majority of Christians actually disagree with the Catholic church upon.

catholics and christians teach the same thing only in different ways and they have slightly different views... but who cares!

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?

I also don't understand what you are asking, I mean I have issues with the Catholic church, but then again, I have issues with most protestant denominations (including the one I belong to)

I don't think anyone is 100% right about it yet (not even me) or that we even can be.
you're right; it's extremely confusing. elements like regionalism, some screwed up protestant denominations, etc. etc., it's impossible to make a poll that is even slightly fair. i think it's actually rather biased the way it is now, because where i live, christians catch a ton of crap because of things the local catholic church has said/done. for example, condemning gay marriage and birthcontrol.

I think the Catholic belief that you must live a good life (i.e. perform "good works") to get to Heaven is a good thing. With Protestantism, any murderer or child molester who believes in Jesus gets into the same Heaven as every other believer.

I think that difference (which I view as the fundamental theological distinction between Catholics and other Christians) sheds a favorable light on Catholics.

I do agree, of course, that Catholics are Christians (though not veeryone does, it's mostly anti-"papist" bigots who make some distinction), but take the poll to be about the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism (though there is still Orthodox Christianity that we usually overlook in America).

how many times have we been reminded on this forum that catholic is not the same as roman catholic??

sigh

since roman catholic is by a huge margin the most common form of christianity it is perhaps more "correct" to ask the difference between christianity and protestantism, christianity and anglicanism, christianity and coptic christianity, or chistianity and orthodox christianity.

not that i would ever ask such a question in such a cheeky and smug manner.

Catholics follow the same religion with slightly different practises to protestants, and catholic teachings (esp in the UK) are against blindly following the vatican, so I'm not too bothered

(btw, I'm an anglican)

I'm thinking of issues like homosexualism, birth control, premarital sex, etc. Catholics frown on all of those. I myself, as a Christian, only frown on one, although I'm very confused and still working out what I beleive concerning homosexualism. There are many, amny more issues that seem to get the Catholic chruch a great deal of criticism, mostly ones that the majority of Christians actually disagree with the Catholic church upon.
All of the christian churches i've been to (any domination) -and i have been to many- frown on all of those things. Although, unlike catholics, they seem to have more understanding of them.--I also frown on all of those things.--

Listen, this isn't that hard.

Catholics = Christians. Protestants = Christians. Orthodox = Christians

One is a Christian if one believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Hence the name 'Christian.' Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox are all Christians.

Why do some people believe Catholics are not Christians? its an utterly absurd belief. Catholics are Christians aswell.

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?

I also don't understand what you are asking, I mean I have issues with the Catholic church, but then again, I have issues with most protestant denominations (including the one I belong to)

I don't think anyone is 100% right about it yet (not even me) or that we even can be.
Agree'd (as far as the catholics are christians)

A good sample does not have overlaping data fields like that
Simple statistics

Your poll does not make sense, as Catholics are Christians, no matter how much you disagree with their practices.

Disagreeing with an organisation's practices does not make them bad. It just makes you narrow-minded for not being able to see past your own displeasure. Besides, if all you have against the Catholic Church are the same things that many Catholics have against the Vatican (which none of us really follow blindly anymore, anyway), then I'd say you don't have much more of an argument than the loyal Catholics who, for some reason, don't hold the "catlicks r evul" view you seem to.....

I think the Catholic belief that you must live a good life (i.e. perform "good works") to get to Heaven is a good thing. With Protestantism, any murderer or child molester who believes in Jesus gets into the same Heaven as every other believer.

I beg to differ here. In my experience, our (non-denominational Christian) belief is that all people "deserve" damnation, for our sin seperates us from God, and no amount of living a good life alone can earn our way into Heaven.

Salvation is a gift, however, and when we accept it, that's when we're saved. And yes, that could include people who have committed terrible things. But, if they truly believe and repent, and from them on strive to lead a life as exampled by Christ, they can have salvation. Good works is part of having faith, but no amount of good works alone can bring you salvation. So often the two are thought of as unrelated, one or the other. You are saved by grace, and you show your faith in that by good works.

I'd quote from James here, but it's pretty long, Chapter 2:14-25.

I'm thinking of issues like homosexualism, birth control, premarital sex, etc. Catholics frown on all of those. All of the denominations used to frown on birth control. Catholicism has just kept the flame burning.

Catholics are Christians… we seem to have got that one sorted out. and catholic teachings (esp in the UK) are against blindly following the vatican Catholic teachings are technically the same everywhere (assuming you mean Roman Catholic), it's just the followers who ignore the ones they don't like. However, you're right that Catholics aren't really supposed to blindly follow the Vatican.

There's a lot of constructive criticism of the Church (more so on its methods than its beliefs), but a lot of slander and smear as well.

I beg to differ here. In my experience, our (non-denominational Christian) belief is that all people "deserve" damnation, for our sin seperates us from God, and no amount of living a good life alone can earn our way into Heaven.

Salvation is a gift, however, and when we accept it, that's when we're saved. And yes, that could include people who have committed terrible things. But, if they truly believe and repent, and from them on strive to lead a life as exampled by Christ, they can have salvation. Good works is part of having faith, but no amount of good works alone can bring you salvation. So often the two are thought of as unrelated, one or the other. You are saved by grace, and you show your faith in that by good works.

I'd quote from James here, but it's pretty long, Chapter 2:14-25. If you want to argue about it ;) post a new thread, but what Catholics believe James and Paul say is that faith should lead to good works. Therefore the two are related.

Hi. I'm a Christian, and I really disagree rather strongly with a few of the things, actually a great deal, of the things that the Catholic church says/believes/practices. So I was wondering, in the eyes of the average person, how much does the image of the Catholic chruch affect the image of Christians in general?

As a former Catholic, and practicing "Christian" I can tell you the difference is not simple to pinpoint. You have of course the issue of confession with Catholocism. Also, there are the things like lent which was started because some pope owned a fish market and wanted to promote "fasting" AND FISH! Also you have the repetitive prayer "rosary" when it clearly states in the bible that you should not pray repetively. If you had any faith you would know you only have to ask in Jesus' name once and He will do His will. You in that way are only asking that His will be done. You give up your free will and agree to do what He leads you to. These are my feelings. They are not right or wrong they're just how I feel. Hope it sheds some light on things.

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?

I also don't understand what you are asking, I mean I have issues with the Catholic church, but then again, I have issues with most protestant denominations (including the one I belong to)

I don't think anyone is 100% right about it yet (not even me) or that we even can be.


Thank you, dear. It's always nice to see someone who gets it. :fluffle:

Perhaps by Christians he meant Evangelicals?

I think the Catholic belief that you must live a good life (i.e. perform "good works") to get to Heaven is a good thing. With Protestantism, any murderer or child molester who believes in Jesus gets into the same Heaven as every other believer.

I think that difference (which I view as the fundamental theological distinction between Catholics and other Christians) sheds a favorable light on Catholics.

I do agree, of course, that Catholics are Christians (though not veeryone does, it's mostly anti-"papist" bigots who make some distinction), but take the poll to be about the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism (though there is still Orthodox Christianity that we usually overlook in America).


Actually, we believe that faith in Jesus is the most important thing, and that "good works", though necessary, is secondary.

If you want to argue about it ;) post a new thread, but what Catholics believe James and Paul say is that faith should lead to good works. Therefore the two are related.

Aha, I left out part of a sentence...yes, that is exactly what I am trying to say..."they are often thought as unrelated, but aren't." Forgot that last part, sorry for the confusion.

But, moreover, I was really responding to the "with Protestantism, any murderer or child molester who believes in Jesus gets into the same Heaven as every other believer." Yes, they can, but not just because they believe.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

I beg to differ here. In my experience, our (non-denominational Christian) belief is that all people "deserve" damnation, for our sin seperates us from God, and no amount of living a good life alone can earn our way into Heaven.

Salvation is a gift, however, and when we accept it, that's when we're saved. And yes, that could include people who have committed terrible things. But, if they truly believe and repent, and from them on strive to lead a life as exampled by Christ, they can have salvation. Good works is part of having faith, but no amount of good works alone can bring you salvation. So often the two are thought of as unrelated, one or the other. You are saved by grace, and you show your faith in that by good works.

I'd quote from James here, but it's pretty long, Chapter 2:14-25.


Here's the quote (James 2:14-26)

14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I disagree with your interpretation of this, though. (note bolded area)

Great, now this thread is turning into the oldest Catholic/Protestant argument in history.

Anyway, I believe that Catholics are better than Christians, because worshipping women and eating "death cookies" is just so cool.

Perhaps by Christians he meant Evangelicals?


That's exactly what he meant. I think we all know by now how I feel about the assertion by some fundamentalists that they are they only "real" christians.

I disagree with your interpretation of this, though. (note bolded area)

How so? Do you think that belief and faith alone is enough?

I disagree with your interpretation of this, though. (note bolded area)
I disagree with most people's interpretation of it too.;) It makes me curious though, if our interpretations are similar.................

That's exactly what he meant. I think we all know by now how I feel about the assertion by some fundamentalists that they are they only "real" christians. What, you mean like the Pharisees asserted that they were the only real keepers of the law?

I personally think that Catholics and Christians are different.

There are a couple of reasons why.
Firstly, Christ never said the word "purgatory". Nor would it really make sense (at least to me) why purgatory would exist if Christ died for our sins (as an atonement).

Secondly, the Catholic Church doesn't entirely enforce the belief that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

Thirdly, the system of power in the Catholic Church doesn't seem entirely Biblically justified. Plus, how is it that only certain people are "closer" to God?

Not to mention the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has had a rather negative history in some of the things that it has done or had mandatory for getting out of purgatory, etc.


However, Catholics and Christians are often times quite similar, almost to the point of being indistinguishable.
Both believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Both believe in one God that is dividable into three distinct parts (the Trinity). Both believe in a Heaven and a Hell. Plus many of the songs they sing or issues or Bible verses that they discuss tend to be closely related to Christ as the Saviour of the world.


On a final note, this is just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Well the catholics are christians arguement has already been ironed out whew that takes a load off me.

However, an overwhelming majority of posters don't understand what the catholic church really teaches including some claiming to be catholic (based on content of posting) Therefore I'd recommend to all who read this (especially catholics) to really study Catholic teaching straight from the vatican.

to respond to one thing in particular:
follow the vatican because you agree with it
or follow it blindly but,
if you don't follow the vatican on all it's teachings (Faith and morals here) then you are not Catholic or at least not catholic in that respect. The head of the Catholic church determines what is and isn't catholic not some process of inductive reasoning or parenting.


(I'm not reading this thread any more yes i know hit and run is the mark of a troll but oh well i'm at work)

sigh, another stupid bigoted protestant who doesnt beleive catholics are christians. if any group of christians wouldnt be reffered to as christians, it should be protestants, since us catholics and orthodox have been around for way longer.

How so? Do you think that belief and faith alone is enough?
I do, if you needed all these good works to get into heaven, then what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? When did he have an thime to do anything good?

I have issue with people who think that Jesus sacrifice was only good to a certain point, like if you aren't good enough then His forgiveness doesn't count, or if you do something really really bad then it can't be forgiven, because "Jesus isn't enough"

Your poll isn't complete enough.
A Roman Catholic IS a Christian. The world "catholic" refers to first or original, as Catholicism was/is the first Christian religion. All other Christian sects are a spinoff of the original Christian faith.

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?Precisely. That's like saying, "Which is better, Asians or Mongolians?" The two are not mutually exclusive.

Catholics and Christians aren't really different, but theyre not the same either. All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholic, I guess your opinion them differs depending on where you live and whether you are a non-Christian, Catholic or Protestant.

From my own experience though, Catholics tend to be a little too strict with their laws to help everyone find love and forgiveness, but since their the oldest western Church, maybe that's what Jesus wanted. I don't care much either way; I'm an agnostic.

I do, if you needed all these good works to get into heaven, then what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? When did he have an thime to do anything good? *points to confessional* It's a bit like that.

Catholics and Christians aren't really different, but theyre not the same either. All Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholic, I guess your opinion them differs depending on where you live and whether you are a non-Christian, Catholic or Protestant.
not technically true, as I know of a few Catholic athiests.


From my own experience though, Catholics tend to be a little too strict with their laws to help everyone find love and forgiveness, but since their the oldest western Church, maybe that's what Jesus wanted. I don't care much either way; I'm an agnostic.
I think a lot of thier "rules" are kinda arbitrary and not scripture based, but you know I guess that's why I am protestant.

I'm thinking of issues like homosexualism, birth control, premarital sex, etc. Catholics frown on all of those. I myself, as a Christian, only frown on one, although I'm very confused and still working out what I beleive concerning homosexualism. There are many, amny more issues that seem to get the Catholic chruch a great deal of criticism, mostly ones that the majority of Christians actually disagree with the Catholic church upon.

Are you trying to go shopping for a religion that agrees 100% with the way you think? If so, is it really religion, referring to the way to God? Or is it a hunt for your convenience, to say that you believe in something, just so you can say you believe?

I am Roman Catholic, not to put anyone down who isn't. I was brought up in that faith. If I had it to do now, I'd still join the faith on my own. I do not agree with all the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, but that does not give me the right to just do as I please and try to repent later. Faith and duty to God enter largely into the equation. Not only when I sin am I letting God down, but I am also letting down all His faithful. I think that proper, caring, decent people all have this or some similar sense of duty to God, self and mankind.

anglicans, roman catholics, eastern orthodox...ans(?) and even lutherans (to a lesser extent, Luther didnt consider himself anything but a catholic with the right ideas) and copts are in one category

while baptists, calvinists, seventh day adventists, calvaryists(?) and their ilk are the other category


based on the fact that the first category is more ritualistic, mystical, interesting, ancient

while the other is a bunch of joyless finger waggers.

just look at their churches, the second category worships in ultra modern clean looking complexes that resemble malls and the first ones worship in beautifully decorated and adorned buildings that are a testament to the majesty of existence.

its the difference between a cracker with all the nutrients packed in for dinner or a full seven course meal with exquisite, nuanced and lovingly prepared dishes, both keep you nourished but only one tastes good

I do, if you needed all these good works to get into heaven, then what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? When did he have an thime to do anything good?

I have issue with people who think that Jesus sacrifice was only good to a certain point, like if you aren't good enough then His forgiveness doesn't count, or if you do something really really bad then it can't be forgiven, because "Jesus isn't enough"

I'm not following you here...seems like we're in agreement. I should probably stop posting from work, since I seem to not have much luck getting my point across.

The part about works was you do them because of, or as a result of your faith. They don't save you though.

*points to confessional* It's a bit like that.
you know as a protestant I don't understand confessional at all, couldn't you just pray about it and let Jesus forgive you? why the middle man? why the penance? why do you have to work for a gift that is free to anyone who asks?

also, one has to take into consideration the fact that there is a significant break in what a church says and what its practitioners do and believe.

age brings wisdom and so the catholic populace tends to be a bit more laid back and laissez faire (if not the clergy), theyve been the dominant force in the western world for 1700 years, but protestantism is still in its relative infancy so its still going through growing pains and stuff like that.


as far as politics go, catholic people are pretty liberal and protestant people are pretty conservative (unless you consider anglicans protestant, cause theyre really really liberal) but the clergy of both is categorically/officially conservative


im not a christian, raised catholic christian, but if i were to go back to a church it would be one of the ones from the first list (likely eastern orthodox or anglican) just because i find ritual to be comforting and the beauty of the churches is awe inspiring.

also, to throw a wrench into your views of me, im spanish mestizo bisexual so I should have a negative history with catholicism as my ancestors were slaughtered and my brethren were persecuted, but that was the church of the past, i see it lightening up soon.

anglicans, roman catholics, eastern orthodox...ans(?) and even lutherans (to a lesser extent, Luther didnt consider himself anything but a catholic with the right ideas) and copts are in one category

while baptists, calvinists, seventh day adventists, calvaryists(?) and their ilk are the other category


based on the fact that the first category is more ritualistic, mystical, interesting, ancient

while the other is a bunch of joyless finger waggers.

just look at their churches, the second category worships in ultra modern clean looking complexes that resemble malls and the first ones worship in beautifully decorated and adorned buildings that are a testament to the majesty of existence.

its the difference between a cracker with all the nutrients packed in for dinner or a full seven course meal with exquisite, nuanced and lovingly prepared dishes, both keep you nourished but only one tastes good
So....let me get this straight....the basis of comparison in your mind is, rather than the policies or theological system that the OP suggested, the house of worship?

That is wholly ridiculous and absurdly superficial.

Are you trying to go shopping for a religion that agrees 100% with the way you think? If so, is it really religion, referring to the way to God? Or is it a hunt for your convenience, to say that you believe in something, just so you can say you believe?

I am Roman Catholic, not to put anyone down who isn't. I was brought up in that faith. If I had it to do now, I'd still join the faith on my own. I do not agree with all the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, but that does not give me the right to just do as I please and try to repent later. Faith and duty to God enter largely into the equation. Not only when I sin am I letting God down, but I am also letting down all His faithful. I think that proper, caring, decent people all have this or some similar sense of duty to God, self and mankind.
wow. awesome post. :D It will be nice having you around...........;)

I think a lot of thier "rules" are kinda arbitrary and not scripture based, but you know I guess that's why I am protestant. The Church is there to interpret scripture. If you look at the New Testament after Jesus' death, you'll see that a lot of it (James, Paul's letters etc.) is interpretation and reiterating of the previous scriptures. Paul and James weren't Jesus, but they interpreted his words. The Church does the same thing.

What rules were you thinking of, anyway?

Simonist']So....let me get this straight....the basis of comparison in your mind is, rather than the policies or theological system that the OP suggested, the house of worship?

That is wholly ridiculous and absurdly superficial.


thats not what i meant, but their churches are indicative of their differences and similarities


the difference is boiled down to the emphasis on ritual and tradition and interpretation versus the emphasis on reading the book and fundamentally believing what it says word for word with no second thoughts and no extrapolations like incense and statues,

maybe luther was wrong, maybe the layman isnt qualified to read the bible for himself, the educated should do it because some of these protestant denominations are fucked up as hell.

incense, statues, the pomp and circumstatnce and mysticism are so beautiful and enriching of the spiritual experience, its like protestants were impatient and just said to skip to the part where he dies so we can be on our way

How so? Do you think that belief and faith alone is enough?


No, actually, I don't I must have misunderstood you. Geez, how do I keep doing that? I thought I read your post carefully. Sorry.

Catholicism is a form of Christianity, I thought. I mean, how can it be Catholic vs Christian?

The Church is there to interpret scripture. If you look at the New Testament after Jesus' death, you'll see that a lot of it (James, Paul's letters etc.) is interpretation and reiterating of the previous scriptures. Paul and James weren't Jesus, but they interpreted his words. The Church does the same thing.

What rules were you thinking of, anyway?

The one that comes to mind first is that the wafer in communion has to contain wheat gluten or it doesn't "count", there are people who become deathly ill when they eat wheat (even trace amounts) I don't see how it's important whether the cracker thingy is wheat or rice, or why the church insists on making people sick.

then there is the baptism thing, if you get baptised as a catholic then you are catholic for life and can get into heaven? how does that fit with scripture, an athiest can be a christian?:confused:

or why do you go to confession? why are there mortal sins? why do you have saints?

I don't expect anyone to actually be able to answer these, but if anyone can I have about 600 more questions...........;)

thats not what i meant, but their churches are indicative of their differences and similarities


the difference is boiled down to the emphasis on ritual and tradition and interpretation versus the emphasis on reading the book and fundamentally believing what it says word for word with no second thoughts and no extrapolations like incense and statues,

maybe luther was wrong, maybe the layman isnt qualified to read the bible for himself, the educated should do it because some of these protestant denominations are fucked up as hell.

incense, statues, the pomp and circumstatnce and mysticism are so beautiful and enriching of the spiritual experience, its like protestants were impatient and just said to skip to the part where he dies so we can be on our way
That makes tons more sense. Personally I do agree that the entire ritualism is part of what makes Mass so amazing, especially when you have a High Mass in traditional Latin. For the record, though, I believe that in terms of biblical interpretations....well, these days the "layman" is much more educated than back then. I think it was out of the question that everybody could come to their own conclusions about the Bible back around the time of Luther, simply because education was mainly for the elite. These days, however, with enough patience and will, anybody can learn as much as they please about the Bible and its authors. Anybody can be free to interpret the meanings to whatever speaks to them (though many twist the Bible to fit their un-Christian purposes). Especially considering that faith is an extremely personal matter, I think all should be encouraged to study the Bible in depth.
And that brings me to the other reason I prefer Catholicism -- I was allowed (actually, persuaded) to put off my Confirmation for several years in order to study other religions and ensure that Catholicism was what I was sure of. Don't know of too many other religions that encourage their members to see if they're wrong on a personal level.

the difference is boiled down to the emphasis on ritual and tradition and interpretation versus the emphasis on reading the book and fundamentally believing what it says word for word with no second thoughts and no extrapolations like incense and statues,

so the difference in living under grace, and living under the law?

The rituals are no longer required, why waste time burning incense when you could be out doing God's work?

The one that comes to mind first is that the wafer in communion has to contain wheat gluten or it doesn't "count", there are people who become deathly ill when they eat wheat (even trace amounts) I don't see how it's important whether the cracker thingy is wheat or rice, or why the church insists on making people sick.

then there is the baptism thing, if you get baptised as a catholic then you are catholic for life and can get into heaven? how does that fit with scripture, an athiest can be a christian?:confused:

or why do you go to confession? why are there mortal sins? why do you have saints?

I don't expect anyone to actually be able to answer these, but if anyone can I have about 600 more questions...........;)
Just a quick correction....in terms of baptism, it doesn't really make you a Catholic for life. You still have so many other steps to go through (as the aforementioned Confirmation, for instance) before you're really a member in good-standing of the Catholic Church. And let's not forget, one can be excommunicated. Both my parents were excommunicated in one fell swoop (the Church fails to recognize divorce, and my father refused to get his first marriage actually anulled, so when he married my mum that made them both adulterers, and they got booted).

And we've been through your child's health concerns before....I've even informed you of the convent that makes the "safe" communion wafers.

I disagree with most people's interpretation of it too.;) It makes me curious though, if our interpretations are similar.................


Actually I misread his post. I think I agrre with him, if he's saying that you need to show your faith by your works. What i believe is it isn't enough to sit around saying "Thank you Jesus!" at the top of your lungs. Anyone can say it, and maybe they believe it: believe it with all their heart, but as the verses I quoted say, faith without works is dead. You have to show it. I do think "works" is important.

What, you mean like the Pharisees asserted that they were the only real keepers of the law?


Exactly. Robertson, Falwell, and that lunatic in Kansas are today's Pharisees.

you know as a protestant I don't understand confessional at all, couldn't you just pray about it and let Jesus forgive you? why the middle man? why the penance? why do you have to work for a gift that is free to anyone who asks?

The idea of confessionals has sort of three reasons(that I know of).

First, you are asking specifically for forgiveness of sins. It takes a certain extra level of conviction to bring yourself to confess your sins to the ordained, however to internally do as such may just be yourself trying to "sham" the Lord, so to speak.

Second, as said earlier, it is rather symbolic in the sense of the thief confessing to Jesus. Much of what the Catholic Church does is very symbolic and and the Church is very deeply rooted in tradition as well. The effect is the same, however it has a level of symbolism to it.

Third, you *usually* are not asking solely for forgiveness at confessionals, and usually priests may give you guidance as to what you should do. There is more to it than the whole "Say five Hail Mary's" that is slanderized much of the time. Usually, the priest will give advice on what one should do in the material world as a good person, as well.

As for "working" to heaven, there is also reason for that as well. The idea is is that if one truly believes in the Lord, and in God, one will follow his words, not just say taht they "believe" in him. Granted, nobody is perfect, however the act of trying to follow the Lord shows true conviction.

Which leads to another reason for confessionals, that of admitting failures as a Christian(which all Christians do). The gift is and isn't free. Simply saying that you believe is not conviction; you must show that you believe in some way(in a sense).

This is, however, my opinion as an "Ex-Catholic", and rather enjoy studying Roman Catholicism, and I vastly prefer Roman Catholicism to other forms of Christianity, due both to practices and idealogy, to the traditions and architecture. A bit off topic, here though.

Also, many such ideas as Purgatory(as far as I know) are no longer accepted as true in the Catholic Church, and infact Limbo(the place where un-baptised babies go when they die, and such) was declared not true recently(from what I've heard-I haven't paying much attention to Catholic doctrine lately).

Simonist']Just a quick correction....in terms of baptism, it doesn't really make you a Catholic for life. You still have so many other steps to go through (as the aforementioned Confirmation, for instance) before you're really a member in good-standing of the Catholic Church. And let's not forget, one can be excommunicated. Both my parents were excommunicated in one fell swoop (the Church fails to recognize divorce, and my father refused to get his first marriage actually anulled, so when he married my mum that made them both adulterers, and they got booted).
so what happens when you are excommunicated? are you just not a Catholic anymore or do you go to hell?

And we've been through your child's health concerns before....I've even informed you of the convent that makes the "safe" communion wafers.
true, people with celiac disease can get gluten free wafers but, they still don't count.

On July 24, 2003 (Prot.N. 98/78-17498), Cardinal Ratzinger again took up the topic of the use of mustum and low-gluten hosts at Mass in a second letter, also addressed to the presidents of Episcopal Conferences and included below for our readers. In it the Prefect restates essential Church teaching regarding valid matter for the Eucharist, and lays out new norms for the use of mustum and low-gluten hosts. Pastors and the faithful are reminded that for bread to be valid matter for the Eucharist, it must be made solely of wheat; contain enough gluten to effect the confection of bread; be free of foreign materials and unaffected by any preparation or baking methods which would alter its nature. The amount of gluten necessary for validity in such bread is not determined by minimum percentage or weight, though hosts which have no gluten are considered invalid matter for Mass. In the Roman Rite, the bread prepared for the Eucharist must also be unleavened.

from here (http://www.catholicceliacs.org/Bishops.html)

Actually I misread his post. I think I agrre with him, if he's saying that you need to show your faith by your works. What i believe is it isn't enough to sit around saying "Thank you Jesus!" at the top of your lungs. Anyone can say it, and maybe they believe it: believe it with all their heart, but as the verses I quoted say, faith without works is dead. You have to show it. I do think "works" is important.
I believe that the verse is stating that faith without works is useless. Let me rephrase, what good does it do you (or the world for that matter) if you say you believe but don't do anything about it, if you don't make a change at all?

how would you even know if you really believe anyway if you aren't willing to make a change? to dedicate your life to Christ through your actions?

I don't take the verse (as some of my fellow protestants do) to mean that you need faith+works to get into heaven, as if you can "work" your way into rightousness.

The one that comes to mind first is that the wafer in communion has to contain wheat gluten or it doesn't "count", there are people who become deathly ill when they eat wheat (even trace amounts) I don't see how it's important whether the cracker thingy is wheat or rice, or why the church insists on making people sick. My view on this: Okay, I don't understand that one either. But the Church has done a lot worse than that and been a lot stupider. If that could make me leave the Church, then the things like the Crusades etc. should have done so already. Even the first head of the Church - Peter - was a sinner - he disowned Christ three times.

I wouldn't leave the Church over one thing though - or even several if it's doing them wrong. That doesn't help matters, and we as Christians are not supposed to abandon those who sin or make mistakes. The Church has made many mistakes before and still continued its work and it's a lot better for its improvement now.

so what happens when you are excommunicated? are you just not a Catholic anymore or do you go to hell?
Excommunication itself is a tricky thing to grasp, unless it's something that you've been through. I know they're not welcome to attend services (though they won't get thrown out, it's not like every single Church has a blacklist), and I believe they're to be prevented from taking Communion, but even this is something I don't have a very clear idea of. It's something that I've just never asked my priest about.

Speaking of the clergy, I have a coffee date with one of the Sisters from the Convent up north pretty soon, I'll probably be back in about an hour or so.....I'll see if I can get some more information out of her, Smunkee, as I've not exactly been terribly helpful.

ETA: Oh yeah, I believe the wafers are actually a "special situation" type of thing as of right now, kind of like how the Church recognizes my individual and situational need for birth control.

Simonist']Excommunication itself is a tricky thing to grasp, unless it's something that you've been through. I know they're not welcome to attend services (though they won't get thrown out, it's not like every single Church has a blacklist), and I believe they're to be prevented from taking Communion, but even this is something I don't have a very clear idea of. It's something that I've just never asked my priest about.
find out more about it, because I am super curious


ETA: Oh yeah, I believe the wafers are actually a "special situation" type of thing as of right now, kind of like how the Church recognizes my individual and situational need for birth control.
well, if they can make exceptions, then I guess it's not as bad as I have been led to believe. ;)

Saying that catholics are the same as christians is like saying that chirstians are the same as jews. they have common traits but they aren't the same. Catholics belive that mary(Jesus's mother) was holy but Christians just see her as a tool of God, used by him to bring his son into the world.

I believe that the verse is stating that faith without works is useless. Let me rephrase, what good does it do you (or the world for that matter) if you say you believe but don't do anything about it, if you don't make a change at all?

how would you even know if you really believe anyway if you aren't willing to make a change? to dedicate your life to Christ through your actions?

I don't take the verse (as some of my fellow protestants do) to mean that you need faith+works to get into heaven, as if you can "work" your way into rightousness.


I'm not quite sure, but I think we are close to agreeing on this. I believe that faith without works is useless, too. I'm not sure how to explain what that means to me, though. Perhaps looking at Matthew 25: 31-46 will help me get across what I'm trying to (ineffectually) say. I just get tired of hearing "Jesus is my personal savior" from hypocrites that wouldn't lift a finger to help someone in need if you held a gun to their head. I knew a lot of them when I was growing up in Texas. I mean, I'm sure they truly had faith, in their way, but you have to show it, or you're a hypocrite. Right? Maybe if you explained a little more of what you think it means, since I don't seem to be able to put it in the right words. Theology has never been my strong suit. I know what I believe, but never seem to be able to say it right.

Saying that catholics are the same as christians is like saying that chirstians are the same as jews. they have common traits but they aren't the same. Catholics belive that mary(Jesus's mother) was holy but Christians just see her as a tool of God, used by him to bring his son into the world.


And saying that Catholics aren't christian is insulting. I've never said that evangelicals sren't christian, what give you the right to make your pronouncement? You are the kind of person I've been talking about. You have a right to your opinion, but your right to say what you want stops at my right not to be insulted, and vice-sersa. You disagree with Catholic teaching? Fine, that's your right. No one's trying to convert you. But when you are deliberately insulting, you cross the line.

I don't get this thread, Catholicism is a form of Christianity just as Protestantism or Jesuitism or Calvinism or Lutherianism or Methodism or Baptism or whatever are all forms of Christianity.

Wouldn't it be logical to say that Catholics are essentially Christians? They are the largest denomination of Christianity in the end. This thread is badly mistaken. It would be better to say Catholics vs Other Christians, although saying that Catholics are not Christians is idiocy.

Damn some people on here are idiots.

'Christian' is an umbrella term used to group all differing groups together- Orthodox, Baptist, Evangelical, Anglican, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Coptic etc etc.

There is no such thing as "Oh, I'm a Christian, but since you're a [insert denomination here] means you're not a Christian." And EVERYONE in Chrisitanity belongs to SOME form of denomination.

Damn some people on here are idiots.

'Christian' is an umbrella term used to group all differing groups together- Orthodox, Baptist, Evangelical, Anglican, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Coptic etc etc.

There is no such thing as "Oh, I'm a Christian, but since you're a [insert denomination here] means you're not a Christian." And EVERYONE in Chrisitanity belongs to SOME form of denomination.
Precisely. Many people think Catholic by default when they hear Christian even, because its influence is so widespread.

Wait, isn't Catholisim just a form a Christianity? Why are people saying they're not? Catholism is one of the oldest forms of Christianity; Catholics have been around before Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, or Lutheranism.

Simonist']Lemme fire back the converse real quick....considering that the AMERICAN Catholics are largely more liberal than most other denominations of Christianity around here, and I've heard similar cases in parts of the rest of the world, how does the overall image of Christianity bleed over to the portrayal of Catholics? Personally, seems to me that many other sects of Christianity are far worse.

(Let's make this all a little less one-sided if you don't want a flame war with the Catholics)

Well, there was a survey in Australia, and out of all the denominations, Catholics were the most accepting of homosexuality (65% give or take a few percentage points) - I guess thats probably due to 1) liberal tendencies 2) Historically Catholics have been working class and have the 'protect the underdog' ethos coupled with the idea of giving someone a 'fair go'.

Another thing people fail to realise is this; although the Pope speaks for Catholics; one must remember, there are 1.2billion followers, varying secs, brotherhoods, ordinations etc. The whole church does not speak with one voice; take contraception for one thing - do people honestly here beleive that NO ONE in the Catholic church uses condoms and the pill?

Please, the virgin Mary may require faith, but Catholics not using protection? please, thats in the relms of tooth fairies and elves.

Well, there was a survey in Australia, and out of all the denominations, Catholics were the most accepting of homosexuality (65% give or take a few percentage points) - I guess thats probably due to 1) liberal tendencies 2) Historically Catholics have been working class and have the 'protect the underdog' ethos coupled with the idea of giving someone a 'fair go'.

Another thing people fail to realise is this; although the Pope speaks for Catholics; one must remember, there are 1.2billion followers, varying secs, brotherhoods, ordinations etc. The whole church does not speak with one voice; take contraception for one thing - do people honestly here beleive that NO ONE in the Catholic church uses condoms and the pill?

Please, the virgin Mary may require faith, but Catholics not using protection? please, thats in the relms of tooth fairies and elves.
Its social policy I guess.

My view on this: Okay, I don't understand that one either. But the Church has done a lot worse than that and been a lot stupider. If that could make me leave the Church, then the things like the Crusades etc. should have done so already. Even the first head of the Church - Peter - was a sinner - he disowned Christ three times.

I wouldn't leave the Church over one thing though - or even several if it's doing them wrong. That doesn't help matters, and we as Christians are not supposed to abandon those who sin or make mistakes. The Church has made many mistakes before and still continued its work and it's a lot better for its improvement now.

I left the Catholic church because the Catholic church reject me, simply on the basis of being homosexual - no, I'm not a 'raving queen', I don't got to 'orgies' or 'slut myself around' and yet, I am thrown in the same bin of condemnation set aside for adulterers etc.

I'm sorry, things aren't to improve with a right wing ideologue at the healm of the church who would rather beat the drum of dogma than use reason to unite a church that is fractured badly.

Its social policy I guess.

I think the best reason was 'controlling someones sex drive gives you alot of power over your followers' - I swear if Jesus saw the mess, all he could do would be to laugh at the stupidity of man and its inability to use the gray matter upstairs.

I left the Catholic church because the Catholic church reject me, simply on the basis of being homosexual - no, I'm not a 'raving queen', I don't got to 'orgies' or 'slut myself around' and yet, I am thrown in the same bin of condemnation set aside for adulterers etc.

I'm sorry, things aren't to improve with a right wing ideologue at the healm of the church who would rather beat the drum of dogma than use reason to unite a church that is fractured badly.
I have much admiration for the Catholic Church. Yet, its policies pushed me away ultimately. I was baptised Orthodox, yet I always wanted to convert over to Catholicism. Now, I am barely even Christian. Perhaps for the better. I take religion from a philosophical perspective.

I think the best reason was 'controlling someones sex drive gives you alot of power over your followers' - I swear if Jesus saw the mess, all he could do would be to laugh at the stupidity of man and its inability to use the gray matter upstairs.
Its more to do with population. They want people to have babies to ensure their flock does not diminish in size. In addition, many policy-makers within the Catholic Church think that homosexuality is a choice or that it spreads, not something you are born with, so they see it their duty to limit it. Too bad. Jesus would cringe if he saw all of this. He would probably see the Churches in the same way as he say the Temple in his time.

Ok, here's one to throw out there to all of those evangelical bible-thumpers who claim that Catholics are not, or at least lesser Christians than they:

Why is it that every time I hear a quote of what the "bible" says I can and cannot do, I'm always thrown some passage from the OLD testament? What figures in the New testament is waht defines Christianity.

Example: There was a wedding this summer, but there was no alcohol served. Reason? "This is a Christian wedding".
Question: Wasn't Jesus's first miracle to make wine out of water BECAUSE THEY RAN OUT OF BOOZE AT A WEDDING:confused: ?

Its so sad to see that 34 percent said "they both suck so who cares"....Its pathetic...:(

Its so sad to see that 34 percent said "they both suck so who cares"....Its pathetic...:(
Hey, I am gay and I still hold a respect for the Catholic Church. Not all people out there are idiots. I may not agree with a lot of its policies, yet I am not so blind as to reject its legacy. It played an active part in shaping the world, like it or not. Plus, I am partial to the notions stated by Jesus of respect for one another and egalitarianism. Too bad they are misapplied.

Hey, I am gay and I still hold a respect for the Catholic Church. Not all people out there are idiots. I may not agree with a lot of its policies, yet I am not so blind as to reject its legacy. It played an active part in shaping the world, like it or not. Plus, I am partial to the notions stated by Jesus of respect for one another and egalitarianism. Too bad they are misapplied.

The Catholic church, I admit, has ALOT of good points, but lord, they have alot of bad points that they're unwilling to acknowledge and address.

The Catholic church, I admit, has ALOT of good points, but lord, they have alot of bad points that they're unwilling to acknowledge and address.
Hopefully, one day it will.

The one that comes to mind first is that the wafer in communion has to contain wheat gluten or it doesn't "count", there are people who become deathly ill when they eat wheat (even trace amounts) I don't see how it's important whether the cracker thingy is wheat or rice, or why the church insists on making people sick.

Jesus, who, might we recall, was born, lived and died a Jew, was celebrating Passover, and was thus eating unleavened wheat bread. The idea behind the rule of bread is meant to reflect this. Should the ingredients matter? Reason says: no, it's all symbloic. Transsubstanciation (sP?) says: eat wheat or burn in the abyss you heretic.


then there is the baptism thing, if you get baptised as a catholic then you are catholic for life and can get into heaven? how does that fit with scripture, an athiest can be a christian?:confused:

ATHEIST. A (absence of) + THEIST or DEI (God). If you are atheist, you reject the idea of a God, and thus cannot, by definition, be Christian, Catholic, Hussite, Jew, Mormon, Disciple of the holy spirit of Walalaland, whatever. No GOD.

or why do you go to confession? why are there mortal sins? why do you have saints?

Can you think of a better way for a medieval political, um, I mean, religious institution to know EVERYTHING that's going on in town?

I don't expect anyone to actually be able to answer these, but if anyone can I have about 600 more questions...........;)

Hope it's a start. Keep'em coming, you found me an a particularly cynical evening...

How can you compare Catholics to Christians when Catholicism is a form of Christianity? If it branches out from this originial religion of course there are similarities....

How can you compare Catholics to Christians when Catholicism is a form of Christianity? If it branches out from this originial religion of course there are similarities....
It's much like asking: Which is better? An American or a New Yorker?

It's much like asking: Which is better? An American or a New Yorker?


Actually, the people most likely to think that Catholics aren't Christian are also the most likely to think that New Yorkers aren't real Americans. (southern evanglicals)

Hi. I'm a Christian...Hi. I'm a Christian too...

please stay away from me...you give us a bad name.

Catholics are christians!!!!:eek: the catholic church was started by the disciples and then martin luther and the reformation came as well as henry the 8th, john calvin and other minor groups this lead to the creation of the anglican church, protestants, and calvinists and of course there is greek and russian orthodox going on as well. Main point before i wander to far :confused: off...catholics were the first chrsitian party then all the other little factions split off therefor catholics are christians....yeesh:headbang: ....their hundreds of christian denominations there is no one christian church there 500 bagillion different ones.:p

Why do some people believe Catholics are not Christians? its an utterly absurd belief. Catholics are Christians aswell.

I was asked that question at Baylor U. when I served a year for stupidity. jk. The girl was in my 'advisory' deal thing and asked, quite seriously, "So, are Catholics Christian?" I told her, quite unseriously, that we worship Kali and were prone to dropping believing practicioners into magma flows during our services. Needless to say, she took offense to my remark (obviously she saw the movie), but I was done w/ stupid questions for the day. Plus, I'm sorta a smart-alek.

I don't understand the poll............Catholics are Christians, so how can I compare?

I also don't understand what you are asking, I mean I have issues with the Catholic church, but then again, I have issues with most protestant denominations (including the one I belong to)

I don't think anyone is 100% right about it yet (not even me) or that we even can be.

Yeah. I agree. I couldn't vote in this poll. And I don't know if the original poster is unaware, but people have used Christian to mean Protestant in tha past and that has upset the Catholics. And frankly not only is it politically incorrect, but technically incorrect since they both fall under the Christian banner it makes more sense to refer to protestants as protestants. I'm tempted to assume that refering to it as Catholics vs Christians is an intentional attempt to flame, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

I believe anyone who accepts the Nicean and Apostles creeds and has accepted Chirst is a Christian. The Catholics and just about all Protestant denominations accept these things and as far as I am concerned most other differences are petty in comparison (not saying they aren't important, just unimportant relative to issues such as who Christ is).

I was asked that question at Baylor U. when I served a year for stupidity. jk. The girl was in my 'advisory' deal thing and asked, quite seriously, "So, are Catholics Christian?" I told her, quite unseriously, that we worship Kali and were prone to dropping believing practicioners into magma flows during our services. Needless to say, she took offense to my remark (obviously she saw the movie), but I was done w/ stupid questions for the day. Plus, I'm sorta a smart-alek.
I gotta say, it gets damn hard to find a magma flow in Kansas....sacrifices are down and attendance is up. God is PISSED. Better get some blood on these hands out here....

I have much admiration for the Catholic Church. Yet, its policies pushed me away ultimately. I was baptised Orthodox, yet I always wanted to convert over to Catholicism. Now, I am barely even Christian. Perhaps for the better. I take religion from a philosophical perspective.
Frankly, no one gives a damn what the Vatican says except the hardliners, and they really stopped listening to them at the Second Vatican Council (the Church wasn't hardcore enough after that :rolleyes:).

Yeah. I agree. I couldn't vote in this poll. And I don't know if the original poster is unaware, but people have used Christian to mean Protestant in tha past and that has upset the Catholics. And frankly not only is it politically incorrect, but technically incorrect since they both fall under the Christian banner it makes more sense to refer to protestants as protestants. I'm tempted to assume that refering to it as Catholics vs Christians is an intentional attempt to flame, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

I believe anyone who accepts the Nicean and Apostles creeds and has accepted Chirst is a Christian. The Catholics and just about all Protestant denominations accept these things and as far as I am concerned most other differences are petty in comparison (not saying they aren't important, just unimportant relative to issues such as who Christ is).

True, got to any High Anglican mass, and you'd struggle to notice the difference.

Frankly, no one gives a damn what the Vatican says except the hardliners, and they really stopped listening to them at the Second Vatican Council (the Church wasn't hardcore enough after that :rolleyes:).

Yeah, so they went off and formed Opus Dei, where they walk around trying to 'recreate the pain of Jesus Christ' by have spikes in their legs, and they think that males and female should be seperate etc.

They're so hardcore, they make Orthodox Jews and Wahhabi Muslims look positively liberal.

not technically true, as I know of a few Catholic athiests.

Hey! I'm one of those! You mean people have heard of us? Or maybe you just remember me from another post. :p

I agree that the OP didn't start a very good thread. The poll is very strange and biased, and besides: Christian= person who believes Jesus Christ is God. Therefore, Catholics are Christians.

Of all the Christian denominations, the only one I am aware of that I suppose an argument could be made that thay are not "real Christains" are the Unitarians- since the Unitarian Church is based on the followings of Bishop Arius in the 4th century. He and his followers claimed that Jesus was a mixture of God and man, so not totally divine, but more of a demi-god. But personally I still categorize them as Christians.

Hey! I'm one of those! You mean people have heard of us? Or maybe you just remember me from another post. :p

I agree that the OP didn't start a very good thread. The poll is very strange and biased, and besides: Christian= person who believes Jesus Christ is God. Therefore, Catholics are Christians.

Of all the Christian denominations, the only one I am aware of that I suppose an argument could be made that thay are not "real Christains" are the Unitarians- since the Unitarian Church is based on the followings of Bishop Arius in the 4th century. He and his followers claimed that Jesus was a mixture of God and man, so not totally divine, but more of a demi-god. But personally I still categorize them as Christians.
They were struck down as heretics though. He could have been a demi-god though, only God Himself could define what his nature truly was. According to the Church's doctrine though, the deity is Triune, thus all parts are equal and one. I am very loosely Christian, and I am somewhat agnostic when it comes to God, as in I am uncertain of the deity's nature, yet the Triune Deity part is pretty much beyond human comprehension, and it makes little difference to me what Jesus truly was, so long as he was truly divine.

Im glad to see so many sensibly appraising the similarity of both the Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity, pretty much all the rational statements have been put on the table I think. I should just like to make one small point: Catholics are Christians, indeed the first Christians if we are to believe Jesus' investiture in regards to Peter. "Upon this rock I build my Church"...and so forth.

What Im trying to say is that it always make me laugh when a few radical and certainly outside mainstream Protestant fundamentalists call the Catholic Church an abomination, when they themselves wouldnt have a oppurtunity to explore any Christian faith whatsoever had not the Catholic Church kept the religion alive for well over a thousand years...obviously there is something to that.

The Catholic church is Christian, infact it is the church created by Christ, handed onto peter and consecrated by the spirit as Christ hung on the Cross.

Protestantism, and the suchlike are caused by sin and schism, they lack some(or all) the truth held within the one universal church.

The Catholic church is Christian, infact it is the church created by Christ, handed onto peter and consecrated by the spirit as Christ hung on the Cross.

Protestantism, and the suchlike are caused by sing and schism, they lack some(or all) the truth held within the one universal church.
The Orthodox Church often deems itself to be the true Church descending from Christ, although I find that hard to believe. I think the notion that the Catholic Church is the heir of the early Church is probably correct, save that it, like almost all denominations, have deviated from what Christ intended the Church to be and to preach.

They were struck down as heretics though. He could have been a demi-god though, only God Himself could define what his nature truly was. According to the Church's doctrine though, the deity is Triune, thus all parts are equal and one. I am very loosely Christian, and I am somewhat agnostic when it comes to God, as in I am uncertain of the deity's nature, yet the Triune Deity part is pretty much beyond human comprehension, and it makes little difference to me what Jesus truly was, so long as he was truly divine.

This is an old argument, so I will just touch on it briefly. The followers of Arius WERE struck down as heretics, but that was after Arius death just before the council of Nicea. It was at that very council where the trilogy was decided upon. Nowhere in the bible is trinity ever mentioned, and the lines in the Nicene/Apostalic creed refering to the trinity were added specifically to refute Arius beliefs. Nonetheless, many Arians (no, not those Arians) continued to believe their version of Christ's divinity, and the modern desendant is the Unitarian Church.

Yeah! Catholic Pride!

This is an old argument, so I will just touch on it briefly. The followers of Arius WERE struck down as heretics, but that was after Arius death just before the council of Nicea. It was at that very council where the trilogy was decided upon. Nowhere in the bible is trinity ever mentioned, and the lines in the Nicene/Apostalic creed refering to the trinity were added specifically to refute Arius beliefs. Nonetheless, many Arians (no, not those Arians) continued to believe their version of Christ's divinity, and the modern desendant is the Unitarian Church.
Could be true. The Church alters the Bible to suit its needs all the time, and at this point the Church was still one, so it could have done this. Either way, the Trinity does not affect the way I believe as I am open-minded as to what God's true nature as a deity is.

The other Aryans are spellt like that :p Its a misnomer for the term germanic.

Nowhere in the bible is trinity ever mentioned, and the lines in the Nicene/Apostalic creed refering to the trinity were added specifically to refute Arius beliefs.
The Trinity isn't referred to specifically, but in Genesis, God frequently refers to himself in the plural, and at one point He comes to Abraham in the form of three men: "The Lord appeared to Araham by the terebinth of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. Looking up, he saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground, he said: "Sir, if I may ask you this favor, please do not go on past your servant." -Gen. 18:1-3. The Lord appearing a three guys, and referred to as one? Sounds like three persons, one God.

And though the word "Trinity" isn't mentioned specifically, neither is "rapture," or "close personal relationship."

Right here is the evidence of schism and sin....

its a very protestant trait to attempt to be sola scriptura, and thus deny so much that is our salvation.
Its simply not up for discussion that God is three persons in One. its a matter of faith and a crucial part of our salvation.

The protestants by breaking the Church created by Christ left not only the authentic tradition but also the Magisterium that ensures the Church’s fidelity.

Yeah, so they went off and formed Opus Dei, where they walk around trying to 'recreate the pain of Jesus Christ' by have spikes in their legs, and they think that males and female should be seperate etc.

They're so hardcore, they make Orthodox Jews and Wahhabi Muslims look positively liberal.

As evidenced by the countless incidents of fiery-eyed Opus Dei zealots walking into markets with 10 lbs. of Semtex strapped to themselves. :rolleyes:

I am a good christian but I am a bad catholic

Hi. I'm a Christian, and I really disagree rather strongly with a few of the things, actually a great deal, of the things that the Catholic church says/believes/practices. So I was wondering, in the eyes of the average person, how much does the image of the Catholic chruch affect the image of Christians in general?

They are basically the same. With the excepion of the Pope and The Virgin Mary being considered holy. Everything else is minor. Note: The so called Christian sects (false Christians) are those that differ greatly from Catholics and true Christians on any impotant issues other than the 2 aforementioned. How times have changed, and sadly, for the worse. GOD bless those that have found, endured, perservered and held on to the truth of GOD, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. GOD bless all the true, humble and loyal deciples. Amen!

Hi. I'm a Christian, and I really disagree rather strongly with a few of the things, actually a great deal, of the things that the Catholic church says/believes/practices. So I was wondering, in the eyes of the average person, how much does the image of the Catholic chruch affect the image of Christians in general?

I voted... actually I can't remember what I voted... it doesn't really matter...

what I think is: Anyone who is really Catholic is also really Christian. But, lots of people claim to be Catholic without actually believing it and living it which is the same as lots of people who call themselves Christian. Protestants and Catholics disagree on a fair amount of things, and I have my own opinions, but I think that there are probably some things I believe that are actually wrong and Catholics have it right... It doesn't bother me very much though ...

Hope I made myself clear :)

I voted the Poll is crap.

Catholic's are better than other Christians.

I voted the Poll is crap.

Catholic's are better than other Christians.

Hear Hear. My sentiments exactly.

<snip>The Church alters the Bible to suit its needs all the time<snip>

Right, I find it harder and harder to believe that claim each time I hear it, because it never comes with the slightest shred of evidence.

I am a good christian but I am a bad catholic

Define both :D ;)

Simonist']Just a quick correction....in terms of baptism, it doesn't really make you a Catholic for life. You still have so many other steps to go through (as the aforementioned Confirmation, for instance) before you're really a member in good-standing of the Catholic Church. And let's not forget, one can be excommunicated. Both my parents were excommunicated in one fell swoop (the Church fails to recognize divorce, and my father refused to get his first marriage actually anulled, so when he married my mum that made them both adulterers, and they got booted).

And we've been through your child's health concerns before....I've even informed you of the convent that makes the "safe" communion wafers.

So sorry to correct your correction, but once someone is baptised into the Catholic faith, they ARE a full-fledged Catholic for life. As their life unfolds, there are ways to enhance and strengthen your knowledge and love of God. These ways are called the Sacraments (Confirmation, Matrimony, Penance, Holy Orders, Extreme Unction). It is rare for Catholics to receive all the Sacraments; married people can't receive Holy Orders and such.

Now, whether or not a person chooses to follow the Catholic faith after they have been baptised into it is strictly up to them. There are thousands of "non-practicing" Catholics who just don't have a concern about matters of faith. These "non-practitioners" are still, however, Catholic and always will be. My aunt is a prime example. She's my Godmother, but hasn't been to church is 40 years. She doesn't follow the precepts or any teachings of the church, in fact prays somewhere else when she feels like worshipping. She is Catholic.

I'm glad to have been able to clear that up a bit for you. Matters like this can get to be very confusing for someone who doesn't immerse themselves in it daily as I do.

So sorry to correct your correction, but once someone is baptised into the Catholic faith, they ARE a full-fledged Catholic for life. As their life unfolds, there are ways to enhance and strengthen your knowledge and love of God. These ways are called the Sacraments (Confirmation, Matrimony, Penance, Holy Orders, Extreme Unction). It is rare for Catholics to receive all the Sacraments; married people can't receive Holy Orders and such.

Now, whether or not a person chooses to follow the Catholic faith after they have been baptised into it is strictly up to them. There are thousands of "non-practicing" Catholics who just don't have a concern about matters of faith. These "non-practitioners" are still, however, Catholic and always will be. My aunt is a prime example. She's my Godmother, but hasn't been to church is 40 years. She doesn't follow the precepts or any teachings of the church, in fact prays somewhere else when she feels like worshipping. She is Catholic.

I'm glad to have been able to clear that up a bit for you. Matters like this can get to be very confusing for someone who doesn't immerse themselves in it daily as I do.

Of course, being ex-communicated for cause is another matter entirely. My intention was to correct your first line of thinking.

So sorry to correct your correction, but once someone is baptised into the Catholic faith, they ARE a full-fledged Catholic for life. As their life unfolds, there are ways to enhance and strengthen your knowledge and love of God. These ways are called the Sacraments (Confirmation, Matrimony, Penance, Holy Orders, Extreme Unction). It is rare for Catholics to receive all the Sacraments; married people can't receive Holy Orders and such.

Now, whether or not a person chooses to follow the Catholic faith after they have been baptised into it is strictly up to them. There are thousands of "non-practicing" Catholics who just don't have a concern about matters of faith. These "non-practitioners" are still, however, Catholic and always will be. My aunt is a prime example. She's my Godmother, but hasn't been to church is 40 years. She doesn't follow the precepts or any teachings of the church, in fact prays somewhere else when she feels like worshipping. She is Catholic.

I'm glad to have been able to clear that up a bit for you. Matters like this can get to be very confusing for someone who doesn't immerse themselves in it daily as I do.
which is why i am both an atheist and a catholic. my lack of belief does not actually affect my standing in the church (such as it is)

Of course, being ex-communicated for cause is another matter entirely. My intention was to correct your first line of thinking.

Damn, I wanna be excommunicated. :mad: I don't want to still be labeled a Catholic even after I stopped believing in Deism and started meditating. Rats... What do I have to do? Smack a Priest?

"Bless me Father for I have sinned"
"Oh, tell me your sins"
"Well, there's this...*SMACK*
:p

Chatholisism, Christianity, Judiasim, Satanism, Wicca, Vo Do, etc, etc, They are all the same religion in practice. The myths might be different but the practices are not.

Catholicism, Christianity, Judiasim, Satanism, Wicca, Voodoo, etc, etc, They are all the same religion in practice. The myths might be different but the practices are not.

How are they the same? :confused:

I'm thinking of issues like homosexualism, birth control, premarital sex, etc. Catholics frown on all of those. I myself, as a Christian, only frown on one, although I'm very confused and still working out what I beleive concerning homosexualism. There are many, amny more issues that seem to get the Catholic chruch a great deal of criticism, mostly ones that the majority of Christians actually disagree with the Catholic church upon.

There is a big difference between "Catholics" and The Catholic Church. In the US Catholics have largely belonged to some fairly spit upon groups, Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans etc. Like with the Jews, generations of getting looked down upon has tended to teach them a bit more empathy than Protestants who form the bulk of the religious authority in the country. So all the stuff that drove people from the Catholic Church in Europe became the exact traits demonstrated by Protestant denominations here.

Catholics, quite independent of the Catholic Church, however learned that the government is full of bastards and they ought to have a little compassion for people who don't come from the same culture as them. Now that they've gotten recognized as fully fledged white people here they're starting to forget. We've got Jewish Neo-con's and Catholics refusing sacraments to, and telling their flocks not to vote for, pro-choice democrats, but conveniently forgetting to mention pro-death penalty republican Catholics, or even pro-choice republican Catholics like Guliani.

Denomination is not the flaw in either religion. Power and corruption are.

The first "Christians" were the first disciples, and followers of Christ. So, whatever they believed would actually be the longest living "Christian denomination" as some people would like to call it.

What did these first Christians believe? I personally think they believed that:
1) Jesus was the Son of God
2) Jesus died for our sins on the cross
3) He is the only way to Heaven (not through good works, going to chruch, etc) (John 14:6 if I remember correctly)

And that pretty much covers the essentials of a Christian I would think.

Personally, if you fit with those essentials, then yes I would call you a Christian. Also, I personally dissagree with having different "denominations" of Christians. Just my opinion.

Damn, I wanna be excommunicated. :mad: I don't want to still be labeled a Catholic even after I stopped believing in Deism and started meditating. Rats... What do I have to do? Smack a Priest?

"Bless me Father for I have sinned"
"Oh, tell me your sins"
"Well, there's this...*SMACK*
:p
Any particular reason why you are finding cause to talk like this? Have you had a bad day? Do you think you're funny? Do you have something against God? Why do you want to smack a priest?
Simply put, I'm glad I don't view life quite so synically.

Damn, I wanna be excommunicated. :mad: I don't want to still be labeled a Catholic even after I stopped believing in Deism and started meditating. Rats... What do I have to do? Smack a Priest?

"Bless me Father for I have sinned"
"Oh, tell me your sins"
"Well, there's this...*SMACK*
:p
Apostasy is grounds for automatic, self-recognized excommunication. The Church doesn't have to serve up a bull of excommunication for every bit of blasphemy out there, or else Heaven would be overflowing with un-excommunicated heretics and blasphemers who go unnoticed by the Church. Since you have renouncd your religion yourself, you're in luck, and you don't have to call yourself a Catholic anymore.

Catholics are Christians. We were the original followers of Christ... All the other branches of Christianity broke off from Catholicism during the reform.

How are they the same? :confused:

All those religions Catholisism, Christianity, Judiasim, Islam, Satanism, VooDoo etc. etc. share several things in common. In order to believe in any of them you need to suspend disbelief and or accept it without critical thought. In all those religions there is fantastic claims of wisdom that the religion has no means by which to know. In all those religions the natural self is deamed evil and that self most be reshaped by that particular religion to be good again. There is more stuff if I bothered to stop and think about it some more.

I consider nearly all religions retarded. The only religion I wouldn't consider retarded is one that made it's appeal to rational minds and not faith.