NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, somebody at JP Morgan Chase didn't get the memo. They're offshoring some 9000 jobs to India. I don't begrudge India the jobs, but I wonder where Americans will work if this trend of sending service jobs overseas continues. Some service jobs can't be offshored, like mowing lawns or janitorial work, but illegal aliens and "guestworkers" will lower wages by raising competition for those positions. Our manufacturing sector is already on it's knees. Where will we go from here? It seems to me that management has declared a war on the American working poor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051205/ts_alt_afp/usindiabankingjobs_051205062132

Americans....Work?

NEVAR!!!

screw working. time to pay people as if they were still working at the old now automated jobs. robots don't get paid, and they are more productive than humans anyway, so we could use the wealth created by automated production to pay everyone just for existing.

the 'service based economy' is newspeak for 'keeping the proles busy doing new unnecessary bullshit'

screw working. time to pay people as if they were still working at the old now automated jobs. robots don't get paid, and they are more productive than humans anyway, so we could use the wealth created by automated production to pay everyone just for existing.

the 'service based economy' is newspeak for 'keeping the proles busy doing new unnecessary bullshit'

Pretty much.

screw working. time to pay people as if they were still working at the old now automated jobs. robots don't get paid, and they are more productive than humans anyway, so we could use the wealth created by automated production to pay everyone just for existing.

the 'service based economy' is newspeak for 'keeping the proles busy doing new unnecessary bullshit'

Not yet i'd say, but that's what I imagine might happen in the future. Can't say how far though.

Well, somebody at JP Morgan Chase didn't get the memo. They're offshoring some 9000 jobs to India. I don't begrudge India the jobs, but I wonder where Americans will work if this trend of sending service jobs overseas continues. Some service jobs can't be offshored, like mowing lawns or janitorial work, but illegal aliens and "guestworkers" will lower wages by raising competition for those positions. Our manufacturing sector is already on it's knees. Where will we go from here? It seems to me that management has declared a war on the American working poor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051205/ts_alt_afp/usindiabankingjobs_051205062132

Sigh. Yes, it's a declared war because the US government doesn't protect and mollycoddle and sugar up American corporations? Well gosh, I guess we need to be more like Mother Russia and make our corporations = the state. Then we wouldn't have to worry about our sucky car companies not making enough billions to qualify as no longer "on their knees."

Maybe Americans should try to be... ya know... competitive. Instead of just whining because they're out-competed. There's a thought.

Wait until companies start offshoring big time executive positions. Then we'll hear about how unfair it is.

Wait until companies start offshoring big time executive positions. Then we'll hear about how unfair it is.

What do you think it is when average joe american buys a Honda? Thats exactly what it is.

Further, I'm not sure people here understand what a "service" economy is. Unless some of you are factory workers, you are part of a service economy. It doesn't mean just 'servants' like the guy mowing a lawn or a janitor. It means everything from doctors, lawyers, banking, entertainment, tourism, restaraunts, retailing, etc etc. Is all that bad now? Do you really think America is at a loss because we don't focus on cutting down trees, fishing, mining and factory work so much anymore?

Sigh. Yes, it's a declared war because the US government doesn't protect and mollycoddle and sugar up American corporations? Well gosh, I guess we need to be more like Mother Russia and make our corporations = the state. Then we wouldn't have to worry about our sucky car companies not making enough billions to qualify as no longer "on their knees."

Maybe Americans should try to be... ya know... competitive. Instead of just whining because they're out-competed. There's a thought.
So what does competative mean to you? Does it mean we should be willing to work for pennies a day like some Phillipine sweatshop slave?

Wait until companies start offshoring big time executive positions. Then we'll hear about how unfair it is.
Won't happen. Those jobs are reserved for the folks who run the country. The extremely wealthy stock holders. They're protected.

What do you think it is when average joe american buys a Honda? Thats exactly what it is.

Further, I'm not sure people here understand what a "service" economy is. Unless some of you are factory workers, you are part of a service economy. It doesn't mean just 'servants' like the guy mowing a lawn or a janitor. It means everything from doctors, lawyers, banking, entertainment, tourism, restaraunts, retailing, etc etc. Is all that bad now? Do you really think America is at a loss because we don't focus on cutting down trees, fishing, mining and factory work so much anymore?
Yeah, banking, like JP Morgan Chase. The service jobs are being sent abroad now too. So what's going to be left?

Maybe Americans should try to be... ya know... competitive. Instead of just whining because they're out-competed. There's a thought.

**claps**

Not yet i'd say, but that's what I imagine might happen in the future. Can't say how far though.

We could start now. We have the technology to drastically cut labor. In 50 years time we'd be well and truly on our way. And then we can develop all those third world countries to this level.

What do you think it is when average joe american buys a Honda? Thats exactly what it is.

Not really, because Honda is already a foreign country. When GM breaks down and is bought up by various foreign companies, and those companies use their own people to run the company rather than retain the current GM management, that would sort of be akin to offshoring executive positions.

Won't happen. Those jobs are reserved for the folks who run the country. The extremely wealthy stock holders. They're protected.

I realize that. My post was a little tongue-in-cheek.

I realize that. My post was a little tongue-in-cheek.

You can say that again.

I haven't done that since way back in the old forum. Hahaha

You can say that again.

I haven't done that since way back in the old forum. Hahaha
A couple of weeks ago I filled like three pages with the same post. Jolt is starting to really suck.

A couple of weeks ago I filled like three pages with the same post. Jolt is starting to really suck.

Yeah. It's gotten so bad that now I can't tell if my wireless card is conking out on me or if it's their server....it just sits there and does nothing regardless.

We should be proud, actually. What other forums are there for NS to conquer?

Yeah, banking, like JP Morgan Chase. The service jobs are being sent abroad now too. So what's going to be left?

Whatever is competitive.

Teh horror!

Yeah. It's gotten so bad that now I can't tell if my wireless card is conking out on me or if it's their server....it just sits there and does nothing regardless.

We should be proud, actually. What other forums are there for NS to conquer?

I can't tell if it's because of the firewall here at work or if it's because of Jolt.

Whatever is competitive.

Teh horror!
That's what I've asked you. What is competative? Must Americans try to scrape by on the same wages as third world sweatshop workers? Do you want to see towns full of tin shacks and open sewers in this country?

Whatever is competitive.

Teh horror!

There's no way the US can compete with third world sweatshops unless we sacrifice the things that supposedly makes this country so amazing.

That's what I've asked you. What is competative? Must Americans try to scrape by on the same wages as third world sweatshop workers? Do you want to see towns full of tin shacks and open sewers in this country?

Wait, so when a tech support job comes from India, it comes from a sweatshop worker? Somehow I doubt that.

As for what is competitive, well maybe if the US doesn't know that anymore, there is no answer to this question anyone will want to hear.

There's no way the US can compete with third world sweatshops unless we sacrifice the things that supposedly makes this country so amazing.

So how did Henry Ford manage to make cars faster than, say, Uganda? Are we really so incompetent that we cannot even compete with other nations without government control of trade and business? There was a nation that was kind of like that, you may have heard of it, the USSR. :p

That's what I've asked you. What is competative? Must Americans try to scrape by on the same wages as third world sweatshop workers? Do you want to see towns full of tin shacks and open sewers in this country?

Competing doesn't necessarily mean offering lower wages, go the other way, you have to offer a better service than overseas workers.

The U.S. IS a service based economy....has been for some time now. Bushco and his corporate welfare pals like to talk about a free market, and entrepreneurship, when what they really mean is capitalism, which is making money. As long as trickle down economics remains the rule, the middle class will continue to shrink, as will manufacturing/production type jobs.
The engine that drove this country, for many years, that made it an economic powerhouse, was the middle class. I realize that the unions were/are corrupt, and rarely good for capitalism, (which isn't a bad thing, by the way), but at the very least, they kept the big corporations on their toes, having to deal with people, as well as stockholders.

Wait, so when a tech support job comes from India, it comes from a sweatshop worker? Somehow I doubt that.

As for what is competitive, well maybe if the US doesn't know that anymore, there is no answer to this question anyone will want to hear.



So how did Henry Ford manage to make cars faster than, say, Uganda? Are we really so incompetent that we cannot even compete with other nations without government control of trade and business? There was a nation that was kind of like that, you may have heard of it, the USSR. :p
What I'm saying is this. How is an American worker going to compete with workers who get paid pennies per day? It's simply not possible to do so without drastically lowering wages over here. Exporting too many jobs to the third world will result in importing third world conditions over here.

What I'm saying is this. How is an American worker going to compete with workers who get paid pennies per day?

By producing a better product. There are more ways to compete than price, ya know.

By producing a better product. There are more ways to compete than price, ya know.
You can't compete by just producing a better product. If the price of the product is twice as high because the workers get paid a fair wage then the consumers will still buy the cheaper product in many cases. In other cases the quality of the product from cheap labor is indistinguishable from the quality produced by more expensive labor. Examples follow.

Tech support hotlines are moving to India. The Indians at those call centers may not speak english quite as well as American employees, but well enough to be understood. The difference in price of labor, however, outweighs the occasional complaints to most companies, so they buy the cheaper call center's services.

Radiologists are sending X-rays of patients over the internet to be analyzed by Indian technicians. On average the Indian person's eyes will work just as well as the better paid American person's eyes.

You can't compete by just producing a better product. If the price of the product is twice as high because the workers get paid a fair wage then the consumers will still buy the cheaper product in many cases. In other cases the quality of the product from cheap labor is indistinguishable from the quality produced by more expensive labor.

Well, you can't really compete by having the state control things just to favor it's own pet corporations either. Well, you can, but that's pretty much the definition of fascism.

And maybe the "fair" wage isn't so fair after all.

Look, you don't want to 'export' jobs and 'import' poverty. So you'd rather export poverty? Is it really so much better that other nations are poor, and angry at the US, and filled with people who have nothing to lose? Seems to me like thats just asking for stuff like terrorism. I don't think Americans are so special that they should really keep the rest of the world in poverty just so we don't have to pay our workers a price that employers feel is fair.

Basically, you want to keep companies un-competitive by forcing them to pay higher wages than necessary to please people like Lyric, and barring them from hiring perfectly qualified people just because they didn't have the good sense to be borne Americans. No wonder our industry is crippled and our service sector is moving away. Americans want high wages, low work, "bennies" of all sorts, a guaranteed retirement plan at the expense of US taxpayers, and the joy of buying useless shit that they know was at least made by Americans instead of those heathen foreigners. Maybe if we didn't have so many "needs" and just buckled up and worked kind of like our parents and grandparents did this situation would be a non-issue.

Well, you can't really compete by having the state control things just to favor it's own pet corporations either. Well, you can, but that's pretty much the definition of fascism.

And maybe the "fair" wage isn't so fair after all.

Look, you don't want to 'export' jobs and 'import' poverty. So you'd rather export poverty? Is it really so much better that other nations are poor, and angry at the US, and filled with people who have nothing to lose? Seems to me like thats just asking for stuff like terrorism. I don't think Americans are so special that they should really keep the rest of the world in poverty just so we don't have to pay our workers a price that employers feel is fair.

Basically, you want to keep companies un-competitive by forcing them to pay higher wages than necessary to please people like Lyric, and barring them from hiring perfectly qualified people just because they didn't have the good sense to be borne Americans. No wonder our industry is crippled and our service sector is moving away. Americans want high wages, low work, "bennies" of all sorts, a guaranteed retirement plan at the expense of US taxpayers, and the joy of buying useless shit that they know was at least made by Americans instead of those heathen foreigners. Maybe if we didn't have so many "needs" and just buckled up and worked kind of like our parents and grandparents did this situation would be a non-issue.
What I'd rather do is to make sure that any product or service sold in the USA, whether produced here or abroad, is made by people who get a living wage, OSHA safety standards, American pollution control standards and the right to unionize. This wouldn't stop jobs from going overseas, but would limit the number that go. It would also make sure that those poor countries made more money per job that they recieved in order to help them raise their standard of living.

If someone somewhere else can do your job just as well, for less, then it's your problem, not theirs. That's the beauty of globalisation. Adapt.

The problem with service is it does not create wealth for a nation. National wealth is only created by mining, manufacturing and agriculture. Everything else, especiallly service, just passes the wealth around. If there is no wealth to pass around, service will die. The only area that the US has left that creates wealth is agriculture.

This nation's been a service economy for decades. Offshoring's been around since the 1970's, and reached its peak in the 1990's and now. Only 5% of our workforce is directly employed in manufacturing, and unemployment is far lower than it ever was in the manufacturing era; the srevice economy is able to employ more people at better income, but it requires a lot more education. This is a trend in which better education is vital for getting a good job, and it will only continue as globalization increases. It's the price to pay for economic stability, tamer inflation and stronger growth. The era of overcost, protectionist industries unable to compete is gone, for the better.

Manufacturing isn't dying, it's shifting itself. High-tech, high education manufacturing is thriving in the US; heavy industry is the one leaving, but the main problem is that those workers simply aren't qualified for these new jobs and they're screwed. If we provided retraining, this would almost be a nonissue, but too many people simply don't get the opportunity.

The problem with service is it does not create wealth for a nation. National wealth is only created by mining, manufacturing and agriculture. Everything else, especiallly service, just passes the wealth around. If there is no wealth to pass around, service will die. The only area that the US has left that creates wealth is agriculture.

Agriculture is propped up by the government; only a few million people work in it and the profitable sector is almost entirely run by multinationals. Our wealth isn't measured in manufacturing, nor is it measured in mining. The service economy works well for us because national wealth is not just hard assets; the richest nations in the world get their wealth from information, finance, and trade, with the result being significant gains in GDP growth, productivity, lower unemployment, and better living standards. The service economy is also more stable and better able to adapt.

Offshoring is nothing more than a reaction to globalization. It's good because it lowers costs and makes companies more profitabe. However, for all of the jobs offshored there are still plenty being brought here by foreign companies (especially Asian ones), and our companies in the US are still hiring.

Maybe Americans should try to be... ya know... competitive. Instead of just whining because they're out-competed. There's a thought.

Yea damn those americans for living in a country that requires more then $2 an hour! Serves them right!

If someone somewhere else can do your job just as well, for less, then it's your problem, not theirs. That's the beauty of globalisation. Adapt.

It's easy to say that when you don't have a family to provide for.

Wait, so when a tech support job comes from India, it comes from a sweatshop worker? Somehow I doubt that.

As for what is competitive, well maybe if the US doesn't know that anymore, there is no answer to this question anyone will want to hear.

Twenty thou a year in this area is basically sweat shop as you can barely make ends meet.


So how did Henry Ford manage to make cars faster than, say, Uganda? Are we really so incompetent that we cannot even compete with other nations without government control of trade and business? There was a nation that was kind of like that, you may have heard of it, the USSR. :p

Ford also paid a livable wage back then. Compare the COL now and then.

Yea damn those americans for living in a country that requires more then $2 an hour! Serves them right!

$2 an hour is a fortune in a country like India or China. Globalization has brought thousands of high-paying jobs to those nations and has spurred economic growth and modernization in many others as well. Cities like Bangalore are roaring as people made wealth by outsourcing have begun to start their own companies and hire more people.

Americans want $25 an hour for work that can be done for $5 an hour in India; the person in India is actually getting better pay than the American and it costs less money. It makes no sense to keep those jobs in the US if someone else can do them for equal or better and cheaper.

And, finally: Outsourcing isn't a bottomless pit. It's going to slow because the cost of labor in India is rising very quickly, which greatly narrows the return on investment, making it increasingly less viable.

Twenty thou a year in this area is basically sweat shop as you can barely make ends meet.

In India, that puts you in the upper middle if not upper class.

Ford also paid a livable wage back then. Compare the COL now and then.

Ford had an excellent product that he marketed well. There was strong demand for automobiles, and by paying his workers more he both kept them working for him and enabled them to buy them. The world of the early 20th century is nothing like that of today. Most people aren't even wage earners.

$2 an hour is a fortune in a country like India or China. Globalization has brought thousands of high-paying jobs to those nations and has spurred economic growth and modernization in many others as well. Cities like Bangalore are roaring as people made wealth by outsourcing have begun to start their own companies and hire more people.


If I was faced with loosing a job, why should I be happy about that?


Americans want $25 an hour for work that can be done for $5 an hour in India; the person in India is actually getting better pay than the American and it costs less money. It makes no sense to keep those jobs in the US if someone else can do them for equal or better and cheaper.


Ok then what do you do with the population affected by the job losses?

Making it cheaper means crap if income levels drop here.


And, finally: Outsourcing isn't a bottomless pit. It's going to slow because the cost of labor in India is rising very quickly, which greatly narrows the return on investment, making it increasingly less viable.

No its still cheaper as what is healthcare in India?

As posed before where are all these new better jobs that are created from offshoring?

For example, we created 60 jobs in Bangalore and have had declinging job growth here. So what is it? A boom in Starbucks?

In India, that puts you in the upper middle if not upper class.


And again. That means crap to the guy that lost his job here.


Ford had an excellent product that he marketed well. There was strong demand for automobiles, and by paying his workers more he both kept them working for him and enabled them to buy them. The world of the early 20th century is nothing like that of today. Most people aren't even wage earners.

Job offshoring wasn't happening then. Guess what the predominant jobs were in his time.....

If I was faced with loosing a job, why should I be happy about that?

You shouldn't be, but strong economic growth there eventually returns to the US because companies in Asia are some of the largest insourcers of jobs to this country.


Ok then what do you do with the population affected by the job losses?
Making it cheaper means crap if income levels drop here.

I support government funded retraining subsidies or interest-free loans for college for those who lose their jobs. Our economy has constant demand for well educated or trained people, and someone with experience in manufacturing is even better suited to high-tech manufacturing if they are retrained.



[/QUOTE]No its still cheaper as what is healthcare in India?
As posed before where are all these new better jobs that are created from offshoring?

Well, I couldn't honestly point them out. But you also have to recognize that during the peak of outsourcing, the 1990's to today, unemployment has been lower and job growth stronger than it was for much of the past 60 or so years.

[QUOTE]For example, we created 60 jobs in Bangalore and have had declinging job growth here. So what is it? A boom in Starbucks?

We don't have declining growth. The service and information sectors have been growing faster; the only sector slowing is heavy manufacturing within the manufacturing sector.

In manufacturing:
Fabricated metals gained 14,500 jobs
Machinery has gained 14,000 jobs year over year
Computer/electronic components is up 15,000 jobs year over year
Production workers have increased by 94,000 jobs year over year

All of the declines have been in automobiles and nondurable goods.

The problem with service is it does not create wealth for a nation. National wealth is only created by mining, manufacturing and agriculture. Everything else, especiallly service, just passes the wealth around. If there is no wealth to pass around, service will die. The only area that the US has left that creates wealth is agriculture.

Agriculture in the US creating wealth?! then where the hell do subsidies come from? The US agriculture is as inefficient and over subsidised as Europe; get rid of the f*cking subsidies and protection and life would be ALOT easier for ALL concerned.

Agriculture in the US creating wealth?! then where the hell do subsidies come from? The US agriculture is as inefficient and over subsidised as Europe; get rid of the f*cking subsidies and protection and life would be ALOT easier for ALL concerned.

Other than the profitable corporate agriculture, farmers in the US are contribtuing to a net decline in national wealth. We literally pay them to not work...

$2 an hour is a fortune in a country like India or China. Globalization has brought thousands of high-paying jobs to those nations and has spurred economic growth and modernization in many others as well. Cities like Bangalore are roaring as people made wealth by outsourcing have begun to start their own companies and hire more people.

Americans want $25 an hour for work that can be done for $5 an hour in India; the person in India is actually getting better pay than the American and it costs less money. It makes no sense to keep those jobs in the US if someone else can do them for equal or better and cheaper.

And, finally: Outsourcing isn't a bottomless pit. It's going to slow because the cost of labor in India is rising very quickly, which greatly narrows the return on investment, making it increasingly less viable.

That and the fact that in India, the government does not expect or demand that employers pay for superannuation or the healthcare of its citizens; thats the job of the government, just like in New Zealand, Australia, the UK etc. etc.

How about if the US wish to compete in the world, they stop expecting the poor business owner from carrying the can for every possible thing the employee wants - hell, if that is the case, I should be given the right to descriminate against people with diseases like AIDS/HIV, Hepatitis; those who smoke, drink, fat etc. etc.

It seems to me that management has declared a war on the American working poor.
I invoke the spirit of cliché.
This is news?

Other than the profitable corporate agriculture, farmers in the US are contribtuing to a net decline in national wealth. We literally pay them to not work...

True; so why don't these farms run their farm like a business?

Hell, in New Zealand, farmers are BUSINESSMEN! they go overseas, the talk to customers, they pocket piss, work the circuits getting contracts to supply fresh produce, lamb, mutton, beef, venison etc. etc.

Its all about running a farm like a business and realising when to diversify, when to move to a different type of crop of livestock, and when to thrown in the towel and move to a different industry.

That and the fact that in India, the government does not expect or demand that employers pay for superannuation or the healthcare of its citizens; thats the job of the government, just like in New Zealand, Australia, the UK etc. etc.
.....
Race you to the bottom!

Or Delaware, your choice.

I think the choice might be between staying competitive or pulling out to just try to be self-sufficient. It would be fairly hard to outsource your own farmland. Plus, I hear food is in demand in several countries - and some of our 'greatest' modern political leaders were farmboys. As for staying competitive, this might be blasphemy, but there was a time for many of our ancestors that the frontier of opportunity, discovery, and liberty was to be found Somewhere Else. Immigrant English industrialists used their expertise to help start the Industrial Revolution in America. German scientists did the same for our Rocket and Space program.

Orson Scott Card hit on an idea about N. America losing it's 'Center Nation' prestige in the near future. The Center moved west before and it's still moving, now to Southeast Asia.

Even with as much outsourcing as there is, there's still plenty of things that cannot be outsourced:
-healthcare
-hospitality
-food services
-construction
-legal (sorry, but telepresent lawyers won't be able to cut it)
-transportation
-logistics

That's without thinking too hard. I'm sure that there are more industries out there where outsourcing would not be practical, if not impossible.

Where will we go from here?
From here, one of two things. Either Americans wise up, stop treating "protectionist" and "isolationist" as curse words, and start voting in candidates that care more about the American people than megacorporations and "free" trade; or eventually we become Mexico. 300 million people won't pull 6.5 billion up -- they'll drag us down.

From here, one of two things. Either Americans wise up, stop treating "protectionist" and "isolationist" as curse words,

Actually, based on the responses in this thread and in the media, "outsourcing" is the curse word, whereas everyone else is so rabidly protectionist they aren't even aware of it, let alone treat it like a curse word.

300 million people won't pull 6.5 billion up -- they'll drag us down.

Ah yes, because the other 6.5 billion people of the world are all in poverty. Oh wait, no they aren't.

But if the government offers healthcare all the businesses will run away and we will collapse into a socialist black hole of Europeaness!

Yes, the agriculture industry in America is bullshit. You realize we subsidize tobacco? Tobacco of all things.

From here, one of two things. Either Americans wise up, stop treating "protectionist" and "isolationist" as curse words, and start voting in candidates that care more about the American people than megacorporations and "free" trade; or eventually we become Mexico. 300 million people won't pull 6.5 billion up -- they'll drag us down.

Explain to me this conudrum: New Zealand has a population of 4 million people and 65million sheep, and yet, funny enough, we have 3.5% unemployment, a budget surplus, an economy that is red hot, growing so fast that the reserve bank is having trouble controlling it.

With this, its all acheived that we have LESS protection and LESS regulation than the United States - explain that for me please.

Even with as much outsourcing as there is, there's still plenty of things that cannot be outsourced:
-healthcare

Actually offshored you are correct but you are wrong about outsourcing.

The local hospitol can't hire nurses because the wages offered means living in poverty. As my mom said, if I had started out now, I wouldn't have made it

They import nurses from South East Asia


-hospitality

As in hotels? Why does that have to remain local?


-food services

Eh? Most of the people I buy food from barely speak english.


-construction

Well many non-americans can be found on the work sites(at least where I am).


-legal (sorry, but telepresent lawyers won't be able to cut it)

You actually want more Lawyers? ;)


-transportation

Drivers don't have be born here.


-logistics

That's without thinking too hard. I'm sure that there are more industries out there where outsourcing would not be practical, if not impossible.
Well you are correct that you can't send the job offshore, however, they are not exempt from foreign workers.....

Agriculture in the US recieves very little money and like all other government pograms today it is targeted toward the rich. The top 10% of agriculture gets 90% of the subsity money. The average farmer gets very little and could live without it. The government gives them a little in order to get their support fot the pipeline to the rich. Some of you may have heard of a "trade deficit". Look at the export numbers. The only thing keeping "third world" countries from owning the US totally is agriculture exports. Traditionally, poor countries got their wealth from mining and agriculture. Now agriculture is proping up the US.

Mining adds to the wealth of a nation, but it is short term. Sooner or later the natural resources run out. Manufacturing is better and was the wealth machine of the nation through the 20th century. Today there is some manufacturing of "information", ie software development. But the physical manufacturing has gone away.

So we look at the wealth of the US. Over the last 25 years those that have gained (the top 10%) have gained their wealth outside of the US and imported the cash. Bill Gates manufactures information in the US but makes money from disks made "over there". The rest of the nation has fallen behind. Why? Because the nation is losing locally produced wealth. Service does NOT create national wealth. Service passes wealth around.

So what about the future? Microsoft has three headquarters---Washington, London, and China. According to Bill, nearly all the innovation is coming from the China office. Gates went to China, gave intelligence tests to thousands of young people. Paid to put the top 1% through college, hired them all. China now educates more engineers each year than any other country in the world. How long before they not only have the physical manufacturing but the information manufacturing also?

Follow your paycheck backward through the economy. Where did the wealth originate?

So what about the future? Microsoft has three headquarters---Washington, London, and China. According to Bill, nearly all the innovation is coming from the China office. Gates went to China, gave intelligence tests to thousands of young people. Paid to put the top 1% through college, hired them all. China now educates more engineers each year than any other country in the world. How long before they not only have the physical manufacturing but the information manufacturing also?

Follow your paycheck backward through the economy. Where did the wealth originate?

*shock* You mean Bill was actually LYING when he said he was concerned about the major drop in computer science enrollment in this country?

I am just stunned! ;)

You cannot stop outsourcing without introducing barriers....which in the long run would only make American companies uncompetitive.

I am not arguing for outsourcing because I am an Indian. I know that in another decade or so, India will no longer be that cost competitive and Indians will be cribbing that jobs are going to Pakistan/East Europe/African countries.

US has ~5 % of world population and ~ 50% world's wealth. This is unnatural. Until colonialism and imperialism wrecked India and China, these two countries had more than 50% of world's GDP. This wealth disparity is what is causing job losses in US because people in India/China are willing to work for that wage. Some of the wealth is eventually going to get distributed, especially when the world playing field is getting flatter and flatter.

Such is free market and one has to adapt to it. It is tough on people who are well into their middle ages and cannot be retrained..especially if they have debts/mortgage and stuff..but such is life.

Reg food services - I heard that McDonald is goin to outsource order-taking to India, as in, when you drive thru and order, the call goes to India via VOIP and the guy/gal over there takes the order and places the order at the kitchen and you get the order at the window.

Microsoft has three headquarters---Washington, London, and China.

Dunno what you mean by headquarters, but outside US, there are only three MS research offices - Israel, India and China.

China now educates more engineers each year than any other country in the world. How long before they not only have the physical manufacturing but the information manufacturing also?

I think India produces more engineers than China and we do have a lead over China on service economy, but they are closing the gap fast.

Reg food services - I heard that McDonald is goin to outsource order-taking to India, as in, when you drive thru and order, the call goes to India via VOIP and the guy/gal over there takes the order and places the order at the kitchen and you get the order at the window.
This is already being done experimentally in the US. Several McD's in Missouri have their orders taken by "retired" people in Utah. There is no reason it couldn't be done in any other place in the world if the experiment is successful.

I think India produces more engineers than China and we do have a lead over China on service economy, but they are closing the gap fast.


In the past, one of India's problems was that it produced engineers but didn't have jobs for them so they didn't stay home. That is rapidly changing with modern communications. They can do their job in India and get paid by "first world" business. Best of both options.

Interestingly, a big percentage of the professors of engineering in US schools are Indians.

You cannot stop outsourcing without introducing barriers....which in the long run would only make American companies uncompetitive.

I am not arguing for outsourcing because I am an Indian. I know that in another decade or so, India will no longer be that cost competitive and Indians will be cribbing that jobs are going to Pakistan/East Europe/African countries.

US has ~5 % of world population and ~ 50% world's wealth. This is unnatural. Until colonialism and imperialism wrecked India and China, these two countries had more than 50% of world's GDP. This wealth disparity is what is causing job losses in US because people in India/China are willing to work for that wage. Some of the wealth is eventually going to get distributed, especially when the world playing field is getting flatter and flatter.

Such is free market and one has to adapt to it. It is tough on people who are well into their middle ages and cannot be retrained..especially if they have debts/mortgage and stuff..but such is life.

Reg food services - I heard that McDonald is goin to outsource order-taking to India, as in, when you drive thru and order, the call goes to India via VOIP and the guy/gal over there takes the order and places the order at the kitchen and you get the order at the window.

Sure you can, but it involves actions that are radioactive in the American public mind for some godawful reason.

For example, the number one reason why the American car industry is tanking isn't because of lack of production, laziness, overpayment, or anything like that; in fact, the American car industry has some of the highest rates of productivity of any industry in the world, which means that its workers are in fact well-paid for their services. Rather, it is because American industry is uniquely saddled with having to pay for its workers health care and retirement. Companies in Europe and Japan, where medicine is socialized and, ironically enough, ends up costing them less in taxes than we pay in fees for a system that offers substancial improvements in general health statistics, don't have to make those payments, meaning that in effect they can often undercut our prices while still retaining a profit. The obvious solution therefore, is not to eliminate medical coverage, which is kind of like solving production problems caused by hand cramps with amputations, but to follow suit with a European-style medical system. But Americans aren't going to do that, for the simple reason that they 1) will not accept anything that is "socialism", no matter how beneficial, and 2) won't accept that anything we can do Europe can do better.

Similarly, the main reason why people in textile industries overseas can undercut us isn't so much the fact that they offer more work per unit of pay, but why: our workers are the most productive in the world, but that is no match for workers who work less, but do so at starvation wages brought about by multis paying legislatures to outlaw unionization and hiring generalismos to provide death squads in case anyone wants to break the law and unionize anyway. The obvious solution, to ban the importation of any good from any nation that outlaws unionization, isn't even on the table in the American system, because we are so hung up on the mystique of the rising tide raising all ships.

This is already being done experimentally in the US. Several McD's in Missouri have their orders taken by "retired" people in Utah. There is no reason it couldn't be done in any other place in the world if the experiment is successful.

That includes system administration. With the advent of webex and high speed networking, you don't have to have a talented inhouse IT staff. Just button pushers.

One of the many reasons I don't advise "youngins" to go into computer science anymore.

Quality of work is no longer an asset anymore. It's the cheap wage that counts.

The main problem is balancing the needs of Americans and Europeans (Europe is dealing with many of the same problems) with the needs of everyone else.

Americans need jobs. Europeans need jobs. Everyone needs jobs. The problem is what these jobs are and how they're ultimately paid for. Hence, the problem with a service-based economy: The only way to bring new wealth into the system is to provide a service for a manufacturing, agricultural, or mining economy. That can be rather tenuous, as such economies will have their own doctors, lawyers, dentists, waiters, and so on. By contrast, these economies will always be able to remove wealth from a service economy- everyone wants manufactured goods and needs food.

It's easy to proclaim that we need protection- tariffs to combat low-priced foreign goods, regulations to keep companies on American shores. However, doing this leads to the possiblity of stagnation, provincialism, and high prices. Further, it harms the rest of the world; as the OP said, we shouldn't begrudge the Indians their jobs.

Ideally, everyone would do what they're best at and life would be good- the US would provide services, China would manufacture, India would develop software, and so on. However, getting to that point is going to require a lot of adjustment, and more than a little disruption on the way. In addition, when we get there, then what? What if some people can't fulfill any niche as well as someone else? What if that niche is so poorly-paying that the area can't prosper? These are all concerns that need to be addressed.

In the past, one of India's problems was that it produced engineers but didn't have jobs for them so they didn't stay home. That is rapidly changing with modern communications. They can do their job in India and get paid by "first world" business. Best of both options.

What's funny is that India is now enjoying a sort of reverse brain drain. A few of my friends went back to Bangalore even though they have green cards and a well paying job in US as compared to 1/10 of salary in Indian rupees.

They say they want to be in the "happening place". US is no longer the only place where innovation happens. This, more than anything else, should be what US should be worried about.

Not the loss of call centre jobs or the manufacturing jobs in China. They will come back to US when wages rise in those countries.

Not the loss of call centre jobs or the manufacturing jobs in China. They will come back to US when wages rise in those countries.

Can you name an industry that left and returned? None have.....

For example, the number one reason why the American car industry is tanking

Japanese car companies are leading proponents of lean manufacturing.

That is the major reason why Japanese companies perform so well.

Companies which are lean would survive. Ford is lean, it will survive. GM ain't. So it won't (in it's present shape).

Can you name an industry that left and returned? None have.....

They will. Eventually manufacturing will return when it becomes more costly to make and ship from China than to make in US itself. I am predicting 15-20 years max.

Thats why i think that America is going to fall on it's ass in the next 2 decades the standard of living is going down and Unemployment is rising and the government bows down to the corporations to easily that they wont even try to stop them making easier profit and sending jobs overseas.

Japanese car companies are leading proponents of lean manufacturing.

That is the major reason why Japanese companies perform so well.

Companies which are lean would survive. Ford is lean, it will survive. GM ain't. So it won't (in it's present shape).

. . .And what by chance is "lean manufacturing"? Perchance could it relate to eliminating all large and unnecessary expenditures? And is not private health-care and retirement for the workers an "unnecessary expenditure" that could be excised by a socialized medical system?

In short, you post modifies mine how?

. . .And what by chance is "lean manufacturing"? Perchance could it relate to eliminating all large and unnecessary expenditures? And is not private health-care and retirement for the workers an "unnecessary expenditure" that could be excised by a socialized medical system?

In short, you post modifies mine how?

The expenses you cite are just a fraction of what American mass manufacturing companies could save by adopting lean manufacturing.

I am not talking thru my behind when I said the above. As part of my master's program I visited many auto companies - both lean and traditional mass manufacturing. My above statement is based on what I observed.

GM plants were the worst of the lot.

Pl read "The machine that changed the world" for a detailed study on car companies and competitiveness.

And is not private health-care and retirement for the workers an "unnecessary expenditure" that could be excised by a socialized medical system?

In short, you post modifies mine how?

Don't think so. If anything, the medical system would become infinitely more cumbersome and inefficient with greater degrees of socialization, where it answers to a government that no longer has profit motives.

About the topic, it's nothing to worry about so long as America slowly tosses aside the vestiges of socialism built into the economy. It's still the center of innovation worldwide and will continue to remain well-off economically so long as capitalism is favored. Remember, America even in recessionary periods easily defeats West European nations in terms of GDP percentage growth. We still have a ways to go before becoming as economically viable as a free-market stronghold like Hong Kong, but that destination is not impossible.

They will. Eventually manufacturing will return when it becomes more costly to make and ship from China than to make in US itself. I am predicting 15-20 years max.


Not buying it.

Manufactoring pretty much left in the 70s. Nothing significant came back.

Chip manufactoring left in the 80's. Nothing significant came back.

Ram and monitors left in the 90's. Nothing signifcant has come back.

Once they go. They are gone.

20 years? Even if it happens, that is nothing to look forward to....

Americans need jobs. Europeans need jobs. Everyone needs jobs.

disagree. jobs are generally a bad idea, and should be done away with to the greatest extent possible as quickly as practicable.

"Lean manufacturing" is here but that doesn't mean jobs. Robots run most manufacturing today. The way out is to find new products to produce. North America and Europe need to put money in research that would lead to new products. Maybe if money were put into energy development and conservation products.

The thing holding this back is the spread of the MBA. MBA programs seem to look short term. If you've ever been involved with a big company in the last 25 years, you know they don't care about 3 years, 5 years, 10 years or 20 years. Everything is this quarter---this month---this week. Sacrifice the future for the short term. Don't invest because that will drop today's bottom line. Drive the stock price up today, I'm selling before tomorrow anyway. Short term thinking.

That is why the vast majority of jobs are created by small business. For 25 years we have been pouring money into the rich and big business. The little innovating small business has hired by looking long term without government help. The rich and big business have been taking the money and firing the workers. If we are going to teach business we need to teach an attitude of looking past today's sales.

I've been perfectioning my soup recepies as of late, they will come in handy in the next US deppression. I better get paid though, if not, then you all can go hungry.