NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently two Canadian missionary workers in Iraq have been kidnapped. The usual appeal by the families and the bravado from our weak government has been reported in the media. But I got to tell you I have little symapthy for these hostages and others like them. Why? Even an idiot could have figured out not to go over to Iraq especially when you keep seeing beheadings broadcast on television. I mean going to Iraq now is like jumping into a snake-pit to save a racoon. No sympathy from moi!

Though I always hold people partly responsible if they do something stupid and something bad then happens to same (this issue has recently been discussed in the thread about women being blamed for being raped), I don't that precludes sympathy, as that would almost imply that they deserved it (and being partially responsible for something is not the same as saying it was deserved).

I feel sorry for them... they're a Christian gorup who opposed the war. It's horridly ironic that this is how they're going to die. The British man, Mr. Kember is in his 70s and helped people all his life. I don't think he deserves to die like this, so I do sympathise with him. I sympathised with Margaret Hassan too, only she was killed....

I have sympathy for all four men in Iraq. They were working for peace showing the abuse and atrocities committed by the Americans or by the Iraqi government that is basically run by Americans. If they die it will be sad for the peace-movement but they will get over it.

Also, I don't know if anyone has thought about it, these guys were taking notes about abuse, torture, and atrocities committed by the Iraqi government and Americans. Isn't it possible that a unit from the Interior ministry has taken them and is prepared to execute them, with US blessing of course?

And why is the Canadian government weak? Is it because we got no troops there, because we have the guts to know what a legitimate war is and what an illegal war is?

Isn't it possible that a unit from the Interior ministry has taken them and is prepared to execute them, with US blessing of course?
Many things are possible, but implausible conspiracy theories are usually wrong.

I find it interesting that one of the hostages said before he left the US that if he was taken hostage, that no one was to attempt a rescue by armed force.

I think he knew the risks. I really don't have any sympathy for him - he knew the job was dangerous. I can respect his feelings about peace, but I do believe that he was extremely foolish.

Recently two Canadian missionary workers in Iraq have been kidnapped. The usual appeal by the families and the bravado from our weak government has been reported in the media. But I got to tell you I have little symapthy for these hostages and others like them. Why? Even an idiot could have figured out not to go over to Iraq especially when you keep seeing beheadings broadcast on television. I mean going to Iraq now is like jumping into a snake-pit to save a racoon. No sympathy from moi!
It depends upon why they went to Iraq, IMHO. This latest group had a very noble misson and any rational person would have left them alone.

I read a letter which was written by one of the hostages before his capture, in which he plainly stated that should he be captured, his family was not to worry and should not intervene. At least he knew the sort of risk he was taking. I have great admiration for this sort of comittment.

I find it interesting that one of the hostages said before he left the US that if he was taken hostage, that no one was to attempt a rescue by armed force.

I think he knew the risks. I really don't have any sympathy for him - he knew the job was dangerous. I can respect his feelings about peace, but I do believe that he was extremely foolish.
I might not have much sympathy for him, but I do have great admiration for him; a man with the courage of his convictions. BTW ... he's a former soldier.

And why is the Canadian government weak? Is it because we got no troops there, because we have the guts to know what a legitimate war is and what an illegal war is?
No I agree with not going to Iraq. I meant weak in the sense that we blow a lot of air but don't back things up with action like sanctions and stuff. I was referring to recent ingnorance of the US in the soft lumber dispute and Paul Martin's many speeches. He should have slapped tariffs on all California wine or something like that and then ignored any decision by the courts saying it was illegal.

I might not have much sympathy for him, but I do have great admiration for him; a man with the courage of his convictions. BTW ... he's a former soldier.
Then he definitely knew the risks.

Many things are possible, but implausible conspiracy theories are usually wrong.
Heh! I put that sort of thing in a basket with this sort of idiocy: http://www.threeworldwars.com/index.html

Then he definitely knew the risks.
He did, and he went anyway. Gotta admire that.

...I consider this to be the epitome of heartlessness. They may not have made the best descision going to Iraq, but that does not make their lives any less important. They aren't the ones going about beheading innocent people.

EMTs are sworn to save lives regardless of what they might have done to land themselves in a life threatening situation. The same applies to this.

...I consider this to be the epitome of heartlessness. They may not have made the best descision going to Iraq, but that does not make their lives any less important. They aren't the ones going about beheading innocent people.

EMTs are sworn to save lives regardless of what they might have done to land themselves in a life threatening situation. The same applies to this.

The hostages requested that on the basis of their beliefs about non-violence, that no attempt should be made to rescue them by force in the event that they are taken hostage.

I believe we should honor that request.

Here's a recent article which talks about Tom Fox, the American veteran with the peace group, and the others: http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200512/s1524065.htm

Recently two Canadian missionary workers in Iraq have been kidnapped. The usual appeal by the families and the bravado from our weak government has been reported in the media. But I got to tell you I have little symapthy for these hostages and others like them. Why? Even an idiot could have figured out not to go over to Iraq especially when you keep seeing beheadings broadcast on television. I mean going to Iraq now is like jumping into a snake-pit to save a racoon. No sympathy from moi!What about the German archaeologist that spent years in Iraq prior to the war in Iraq, took numerous safety precautions, and most likely was betrayed by someone she entrusted with her travel route?
She didn't go over to that "snake-pit", she was already there. Does she get any sympathy?

The hostages requested that on the basis of their beliefs about non-violence, that no attempt should be made to rescue them by force in the event that they are taken hostage.

I believe we should honor that request.
I agree. I hate it, but I agree.

See, that's the solder in me coming out again in response to the situation. It's a bit like the old fire-house horse who goes nuts with eagerness everytime he hears the fire bell. :D

of course i have sympathy for these men. they went to iraq out of their chirstian duty and are paying the price for it. they knew they might die in any number of ways but they still went. they didnt go for money or glory but to help their fellow man.

no they arent partly responsible for their capture and probable death. only their captors and murderers are responsible for that. they are only "guilty" of putting themselves in a place where such things happen.

i think we should admire people who put their lives on the line for their christian ideals. its a bigger sacrifice than an hour on sunday mornings eh?

if your going there and helping the americans then no

if your helping the iraqis then yes

but most of the groups who say they are arn't in my opinon.

also missionarys in my view should be killed on sight

no good ever came from a missionary

What about the German archaeologist that spent years in Iraq prior to the war in Iraq, took numerous safety precautions, and most likely was betrayed by someone she entrusted with her travel route?
She didn't go over to that "snake-pit", she was already there. Does she get any sympathy?
Perhaps not. She was obviously not stupid, so she must have realized that the possibility of capture and death was very real. It's a lot like one of the very first civlians who was beheaded, a young man who went to Iraq on his own despite State Department warnings, looking for work as a civilian contractor.

... I think we should admire people who put their lives on the line for their christian ideals.
As I have already stated, I agree.

if your going there and helping the americans then no

if your helping the iraqis then yes

but most of the groups who say they are arn't in my opinon.

also missionarys in my view should be killed on sight

no good ever came from a missionary

???

Ever met a missionary overseas?

... I think we should admire people who put their lives on the line for their christian ideals.
As I have already stated, I agree.

The hostages requested that on the basis of their beliefs about non-violence, that no attempt should be made to rescue them by force in the event that they are taken hostage.

I believe we should honor that request.

I was saying that the idea of non-sympathy towards the hostages was heartless. But if they believe in peace enough not to use force for thier rescue, then that is their perogative.

I was saying that the idea of non-sympathy towards the hostages was heartless. But if they believe in peace enough not to use force for thier rescue, then that is their perogative.
Respect is not the same thing as sympathy. I respect them, but sympathy is unnecessary for people who willingly and knowingly went. Regardless of their cause. I can even respect some of the insurgents, as they are willing to lay their lives on the line for their beliefs.

Whether US soldiers or insurgents or peace workers, it seems that war attracts people who believe in ideals.

IF YOU BELIEVE the anti-war crowd, no American service member goes to Iraq willingly because, of course, no one wants to "die for oil." The deranged President sends them all kicking and screaming, but they have no choice because their contracts have made them slaves of the state, nothing more than cannon fodder.

If you believe the anti-war crowd, you might want to talk to some of the U.S. Marines who have volunteered for duty in Iraq, often multiple times.

The Londonderry-based Bravo Company, a Marine reserve unit, has just been activated for duty in Iraq. These men are nothing if not ready — and willing — to go.

"I wanted to be activated," Lance Cpl. Nick Koutalakis, 22, of Nashua, said last week.

Major Dave Mayhan of Bedford is an active duty Marine serving with Bravo Company. He told a New Hampshire Union Leader reporter last week that people sometimes come to him and say they're sorry he is being deployed to Iraq.

"People shouldn't feel sorry for us," said the father of three. "We have an opportunity to make a difference and do what we signed up for."

More than 100 of the 180 members of Bravo Company signed up for a second deployment.

These Marines, like their counterparts in the other branches of our armed forces, know they are fighting to defeat America's enemies, who also are Iraq's enemies. That's the job they volunteered to do, and they want to do it.

Their courage and selflessness are amazing to behold. Americans should remember that before belittling these patriots by dismissing their work as colonialism, profiteering or a grand waste. They are achieving great things in Iraq, and we should never lose sight of that because their accomplishments carry a high price.

Respect is not the same thing as sympathy. I respect them, but sympathy is unnecessary for people who willingly and knowingly went. Regardless of their cause. I can even respect some of the insurgents, as they are willing to lay their lives on the line for their beliefs.

Whether US soldiers or insurgents or peace workers, it seems that war attracts people who believe in ideals.

Ach. You make a good point.

Make no mistake, I respect them for their ideals and that they have the guts to follow through. At the same time, I do feel sympathetic for the hell that they must be going through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada-Quebec
And why is the Canadian government weak? Is it because we got no troops there, because we have the guts to know what a legitimate war is and what an illegal war is?

No I agree with not going to Iraq. I meant weak in the sense that we blow a lot of air but don't back things up with action like sanctions and stuff. I was referring to recent ingnorance of the US in the soft lumber dispute and Paul Martin's many speeches. He should have slapped tariffs on all California wine or something like that and then ignored any decision by the courts saying it was illegal.

Okay! I agree the Canadian government blows alot of hot air.

Though I always hold people partly responsible if they do something stupid and something bad then happens to same (this issue has recently been discussed in the thread about women being blamed for being raped), I don't that precludes sympathy, as that would almost imply that they deserved it (and being partially responsible for something is not the same as saying it was deserved).

To me saying that peace activists deserve to get killed for being stupid enough to go there is tantamount to saying that troops deserve to die for being bloodthirsty enough to go there. Granted, most troops go there because they're told to, but most of them genuinly believe in being there to stand by their brothers-in-arms.

It's courage that keeps them there. Both troops and the peaceworkers. While death is the all too common consequence of doing something courageous, it doesn't mean that it should be looked at as the natural punishment for being courageous. To me, their willingness to face likely death earns them all the more respect.

Now the missionaries and the mercenaries (civilian contractors to those of you who watch network news) on the other hand... They're in it for conquest and money. I don't feel bad for them when they lie down for the big sand nap.

Perhaps not. She was obviously not stupid, so she must have realized that the possibility of capture and death was very real. It's a lot like one of the very first civlians who was beheaded, a young man who went to Iraq on his own despite State Department warnings, looking for work as a civilian contractor.With a thread title "Sympathy for hostages? I think not!" the author addresses all current hostages in Iraq.

I feel sorry for them... they're a Christian gorup who opposed the war. It's horridly ironic that this is how they're going to die. The British man, Mr. Kember is in his 70s and helped people all his life. I don't think he deserves to die like this, so I do sympathise with him. I sympathised with Margaret Hassan too, only she was killed....

Look, its sad that hes going to die, but come on, stupid is stupid. Going into a warzone with religious extremists who view your faith as the crusading enemy can only be motivated by two things: abject stupidity or a sick desire to become a martyr for your cause. Either way, good riddance.

He did, and he went anyway. Gotta admire that.

Umm...why? Honestly, why admire someone who throws their life away over a battle they cannot win? Where is the honor in that? There is no more fight, no more chance to do good, no more time, no more chances. When you're dead you're done, you don't get to try anything else to fix the world. Either things change or you fail, and the death of one (or four, as the case seems to be) peace activist at the hands of barbarians when he put himself in harm's way, I doubt it will even register.

...I consider this to be the epitome of heartlessness. They may not have made the best descision going to Iraq, but that does not make their lives any less important. They aren't the ones going about beheading innocent people.

EMTs are sworn to save lives regardless of what they might have done to land themselves in a life threatening situation. The same applies to this.

Yeah, it is heartless. Sorry, but thats life, thats the world we live in. Every choice is not equal, every person is not worthy of veneration, and good intentions do not absolve you of the consequences of your actions. They believed in peace, now they are going to die at the hands of those who don't. No, they aren't the ones beheading people, but there is nothing special or praiseworthy of volunteering to go under the blade to make a point about peace.

The hostages requested that on the basis of their beliefs about non-violence, that no attempt should be made to rescue them by force in the event that they are taken hostage.

I believe we should honor that request.

I don't. A rescue attempt will end in the deaths of their captors. Thats the only silver lining I see in this whole sickening story, that they might have managed to put focus on a group of kidnappers.

i think we should admire people who put their lives on the line for their christian ideals. its a bigger sacrifice than an hour on sunday mornings eh?

Disgusting. Not entirely suprising, but still disgusting. Where is the good in dying for your faith? where is the good in laying down your life for no more benefit than the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing you're going to be remembered as a marty? What service did they provide to Christianity other than shoring up the vile concept that suffering for the sake of suffering is somehow honorable? Reminds me of the last stanza in Eleanor Rigby.

To me saying that peace activists deserve to get killed for being stupid enough to go there is tantamount to saying that troops deserve to die for being bloodthirsty enough to go there. Granted, most troops go there because they're told to, but most of them genuinly believe in being there to stand by their brothers-in-arms.

It's courage that keeps them there. Both troops and the peaceworkers. While death is the all too common consequence of doing something courageous, it doesn't mean that it should be looked at as the natural punishment for being courageous. To me, their willingness to face likely death earns them all the more respect.

I doubt most of the troops are there because they believe in the cause. They are there because they were ordered to go and thats what soldiers do. They pledged to serve their country, they are there because of duty, because to not go would be a betrayl of the oath they took. Iraq isn't a war about ideals. Hell, we haven't had a war about ideals in the US since the Civil War (WWII was about cleaning up the mess we made in Europe sticking our noses where they didn't belong in WWI and about defending ourselves in the Pacific).

what profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul?

what good are christian ideals if they are never put into effect?

people talk and talk about what a crying shame it is that we invaded iraq. they stare in horror at pictures out of abughraib. ohmygod the poor dead iraqi civilians. on and on.

but THESE men were willing to go to iraq to put themselves in the way of the US abuses. these men knew the risk. and these men are paying that price.

i feel sorry for you that you cant see anything to admire in men like this.

what profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul?

what good are christian ideals if they are never put into effect?

people talk and talk about what a crying shame it is that we invaded iraq. they stare in horror at pictures out of abughraib. ohmygod the poor dead iraqi civilians. on and on.

but THESE men were willing to go to iraq to put themselves in the way of the US abuses. these men knew the risk. and these men are paying that price.

i feel sorry for you that you cant see anything to admire in men like this.

First and foremost: don't quote the bible at me, it holds no influence since my apostasy.

Now that we have that out of the way, what "Christian Ideals" were being put into practice by leading themselves to the slaughter? Were they perhaps practicing conversion and evangelism? No, they seemed to be there to investigate abuses and advocate peace. I'm sorry, but I fail to see what was accomplished. Who was saved, what good has been brought? Four men will likely die, and even if they survive there is a good chance their captors will be killed because they decided to put themselves in harm's way. Soldiers might die saving them, soldiers whose only crime is trying to save them.

In bringing peace they brought only death, their servile actions putting at risk at least three groups of lives (themselves, the soldiers who are ordered to sve them, and their captors). For what? What is the best case scenario for them? What could they hope to accomplish? Maybe they will inspire others to throw their lives away, but will that bring peace? No, it might make the US withdraw if enough die, but then Iraq will simply devolve into civil war, same death, different players. It is arrogant, and it is vain. Any direction you go, their desire to feel good about themselves leads to more death.

Don't tell me that there is something honorable in doing something, anything. If your actions make what you dislike worse, you are not worthy of veneration. There is nothing admirable in making a bad situation worse, nothing beautiful in marching to martyrdom with nothing to show for it but your own blood.

Finally, don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for the families who will lose loved ones because these men didn't bother to think their actions through. Feel sorry for the children who will be orphaned, the wives who will be widowed, the grandchildren that will never know their grandfathers. Feel sorry for the soldiers who will put their lives on the line to save people who do not even value their own lives, let alone the lives that will be threatened by their witless suicides.

what makes you think they didnt think their actions through? after all, eutrusca posted a link where one of them said to not take destructive action if they got captured. that sounds to me like they gave it enough thought.

i dont know that i would even consider their course of action for myself. according to a radio show i listened to they were involved in some questionable activities that might have endangered the lives of our soldiers. (it may have been others in their group and not them specifically) i would never do such a thing since i dont consider our soldiers lives as less valuable than the people they are fighting against.

i dont find it stupid or useless or automatonic (i made that word up) or even martyrish to risk ones life for another. its obviously something they believe deeply in or they wouldnt be there

as for sympathy....

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. ... Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee -- john donne

what makes you think they didnt think their actions through? after all, eutrusca posted a link where one of them said to not take destructive action if they got captured. that sounds to me like they gave it enough thought.

i dont know that i would even consider their course of action for myself. according to a radio show i listened to they were involved in some questionable activities that might have endangered the lives of our soldiers. (it may have been others in their group and not them specifically) i would never do such a thing since i dont consider our soldiers lives as less valuable than the people they are fighting against.

i dont find it stupid or useless or automatonic (i made that word up) or even martyrish to risk ones life for another. its obviously something they believe deeply in or they wouldnt be there

as for sympathy....

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. ... Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee -- john donne

Do you really think that their request will be honored? More importantly, did all four make that request? Hell, if you were a commander in the field and you recieved information regarding American hostages, would you even bother to spend the time checking to see who exactly they were and if they wanted to be saved or would you just do your duty and go get your fellow citizens?

Now, when it comes to risking one's life, thats where you and I differ. I still don't see what lives they were trying to save. I'm not entirely clear what they thought they might accomplish. Looking at the situation, I don't really think theres much they could have accomplished besides getting someone killed because of their little ideological quest.

Much of a fan of Hemmingway as I am, I do not value every human life and mourn the passing of each as if it was my own. Sure, it is sad that these four men will likely die, but I'm not going to cry for them. I'm not going to engage in the comfortable lie and talk about how valuable they were, how good they are, how much their lives have bought. They chose to be there, they chose to put themsleves in a place where they might die. If I am to expend any energy morning for lives lost in Iraq, I will spend it on those who did not have the luxury of throwing their lives away, those who did not have a choice.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but i was wondering if the hostages are killed will it have any sort of repercussions for Paul Martin and his campaign since it hi-lights the general ineffectiveness of The Canadian Government in helping any Canadians in foreign countries in dire circumstances. My guess is probably not, because we seem to elect Liberals no matter what! Any thoughts?

also missionarys in my view should be killed on sight

no good ever came from a missionary
Yup, shoulda capped Mother Theresa early before she went and fucked up Calcutta, huh?

Dumbass.

...I consider this to be the epitome of heartlessness. They may not have made the best descision going to Iraq, but that does not make their lives any less important. They aren't the ones going about beheading innocent people.

EMTs are sworn to save lives regardless of what they might have done to land themselves in a life threatening situation. The same applies to this.
I didn't say they should be killed or deserve it or anything like that. I just mean I don't have any sympathy for them for walking into a lion's den. I mean I don't wouldn't want a storm chaser to die but if they get sucked into a tornado and go splat well they knew the risk. Plus the terrorists are wimping out and have extended the execution date. The hostages will probably be let go - in about five years. :(

What about the German archaeologist that spent years in Iraq prior to the war in Iraq, took numerous safety precautions, and most likely was betrayed by someone she entrusted with her travel route?
She didn't go over to that "snake-pit", she was already there. Does she get any sympathy?
No. The German government would have fallen similar moves that Canada, the US and other countries have and told all nationals that they should leave Iraq.

I feel bad for them in the same way I feel bad for a person who dies in a bungee jumping accident. It's sad but in a way they were asking for it. Still sad though.

You guys are talking about missionaries, right? I don't feel sorry for them! They've done what's right! Jim Elliot said (and this is awesome!) "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." These people no it's almost certain death. But what is death for them? It is the doorway to heaven! What is death for their torcherers? It is the doorway to hell. So, if these Christians can go to these people and witness to them, though it may not work most of the time, it will work some of the time!