NationStates Jolt Archive

People are just people. They make mistakes, they do stoopid things, they do things without thinking, they do things which seem like a good idea at the time and later discover they were wrong.

Take the case of former street gang leader and convicted killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Apparently this death row inmate has changed over the years and has written several books urging children to reject violence. "Among those asking for clemency for Williams were Nobel Peace Prize winners Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Mairead Corrigan Maguire."

In August, Williams received a President's Call to Service Award for his good deeds on death row, complete with a letter from President George Bush praising him for demonstrating "the outstanding character of America."

How is executing this man going to help anyone? Commute his sentance to life and let him continue to warn kids about gangs and violence. That would be a much better memorial to those he was convicted of killing than simply executing him would be.

I am not a proponent of eliminating the death penalty, but sometimes a bit of mercy is appropriate, don't you think?

I completely agree. I've signed Amnesty International petitions to Ahnuld trying to get him to grant clemency, and I've got a candlelight vigil to attend tonight for the same purpose. Sadly, however, I don't think he's going to change his mind.:(

I'm against the death penalty...

But I agree, executing that man won't help anybody. If he lives, he might be able to contribute to society and better it.

The-Republic']I completely agree. I've signed Amnesty International petitions to Ahnuld trying to get him to grant clemency, and I've got a candlelight vigil to attend tonight for the same purpose. Sadly, however, I don't think he's going to change his mind.:(
Good for you! But I suspect you're right ... doesn't look like any clemency is going to be forthcoming.

I bet if he's he escapes the death penalty, every inmate on death throw will suddenly start writing books about the same thing.

I bet if he's he escapes the death penalty, every inmate on death throw will suddenly start writing books about the same thing.
LOL! Highly unlikely, but I see your point. :)

I'm against the death penalty...

But I agree, executing that man won't help anybody. If he lives, he might be able to contribute to society and better it.
Seems like he's done a good job at that thus far. :)

I bet if he's he escapes the death penalty, every inmate on death throw will suddenly start writing books about the same thing.
I don't see as how that's a bad thing.

I really don't get why this guy's still on Death Row. If he's reformed enough for presidential recognition of good works what's the point of killing him?

I'd keep him in for life though, the knock-on effects of his actions are bad enough to warrant that.

I really don't get why this guy's still on Death Row. If he's reformed enough for presidential recognition of good works what's the point of killing him?
My point exactly. :)

I couldn't care less about "Tookie". The death penalty is a bad idea because a government shouldn't be given the power to murder its citizens.
There shouldn't be a death penalty, period. Just cheap, hellhole prisons without amenities (bread-n-water style) for rapists and murderers.

I bet if he's he escapes the death penalty, every inmate on death throw will suddenly start writing books about the same thing.
So? If they convince enough kids to break the cycle of violence then that's a good thing.

I couldn't care less about "Tookie". The death penalty is a bad idea because a government shouldn't be given the power to murder its citizens.
There shouldn't be a death penalty, period. Just cheap, hellhole prisons without amenities (bread-n-water style) for rapists and murderers.
Sounds an awful lot like more "justice without mercy" to me. :(

Sounds an awful lot like more "justice without mercy" to me. :(
Sometimes, a swift death is merciful. Depends on the situation.

BTW, Eut, I'm not sure if you know this, but on military forums, you and I are known as Former Action Guys.

So? If they convince enough kids to break the cycle of violence then that's a good thing.

I didn't say it wasn't

BTW, Eut, I'm not sure if you know this, but on military forums, you and I are known as Former Action Guys.
OMG! Now I'm an animated action figure! :eek:

OMG! Now I'm an animated action figure! :eek:

Unfortunate acronym.

You know what Eut, the more I read your posts the more I realize that you may be the most liberal conservative I've seen here.

Unfortunate acronym.
Deliberate, from the looks of it. Though still worth a titter or two.

Deliberate, from the looks of it. Though still worth a titter or two.
Hehe. I just got it.

Unfortunate acronym.

You know what Eut, the more I read your posts the more I realize that you may be the most liberal conservative I've seen here. Somewhere between a rock and a hard place lies… realism.

Really, executing this guy is going to do nothing good. You'd have thought the President would have granted clemency, since the bloke got a Presidential Award.

Perhaps if we throw enough Bible quotes at Bush, he might change his mind, since he is at least nominally a Christian. Anyone got his email?

I didn't know he knew how to use a computer.

The-Republic']I didn't know he knew how to use a computer.

Are you kidding! He's probably raiding Upper Blackrock Spire with Rummy & Co as we speak! :p

You know what Eut, the more I read your posts the more I realize that you may be the most liberal conservative I've seen here.
Whatever the frack THAT means! heh!

Thanks Eut for saying this.

When I tried, I got rather different responses...but people respect you it seems. :D

Thanks Eut for saying this.

When I tried, I got rather different responses...but people respect you it seems. :D
Nahh. They're just scared I'll subject them to the "Horn Sarcasm Treatment!" Mwahahahaha! :D

The death penatly is one of the worst inventions of the human race. There is no point in it and it costs so much god damn money.


Ahnuld is probably injecting steroids into his ass. He doesn't care.

Whatever the frack THAT means! heh!
It means if you were Canadian, you'd be a 'Red Tory'... which incidentally would be a bitch, 'cause there currently are no parties representing the traditional 'Red Tory' here in Canada.

lots of poeple on death row repent, accept jesus christ as their lord and savior, see the error of their ways, become jailhouse artists and writers, etc

why arent THEY granted clemency?

im not in favor of the death penalty but if i were, tookie williams is just the sort of man who deserves it.

however, if i were governor of california i would find a way to get this decision off my watch. id order a new trial, set up a commission, anything to have it not be MY decision to send him to his death.

lots of poeple on death row repent, accept jesus christ as their lord and savior, see the error of their ways, become jailhouse artists and writers, etc. why arent THEY granted clemency?

... if i were governor of california i would find a way to get this decision off my watch. id order a new trial, set up a commission, anything to have it not be MY decision to send him to his death.
Can you say "conundrum cop-out" boys and girls? :p

They don't have the same backing?

im not in favor of the death penalty but if i were, tookie williams is just the sort of man who deserves it.
Maybe this just shows the kind of music I listen to...but why?
His murders weren't particularly gruesome, he is not mentally ill, he killed these people during a stick-up I understand - in other words for money.
He's not a "killer" as in someone who kills for the sake of killing. Take away the Gangsta-Lifestyle, the lack of money and the ghettos, and he wouldn't have killed anyone.

Surely there are a lot more dangerous people out there.

Maybe this just shows the kind of music I listen to...but why?
His murders weren't particularly gruesome, he is not mentally ill, he killed these people during a stick-up I understand - in other words for money.
He's not a "killer" as in someone who kills for the sake of killing. Take away the Gangsta-Lifestyle, the lack of money and the ghettos, and he wouldn't have killed anyone.

Surely there are a lot more dangerous people out there.
the man is a founding member of the freaking CRIPS. he killed at least 4 people in cold blood, who knows what else he may be guilty of.

there are no more dangerous people out there.

if you were in favor of the death penalty, who would deserve it MORE? cold blooded killers qualify in MY world.

It means if you were Canadian, you'd be a 'Red Tory'... which incidentally would be a bitch, 'cause there currently are no parties representing the traditional 'Red Tory' here in Canada.No major parties, you mean. There is the Progressive Canadian Party, which is made up of some of the remnants of the Progressive Conservative Party (including the guys fighting to get the old name back).

the man is a founding member of the freaking CRIPS.
Was. And besides...the government didn't care, and founding an "organisation" is okay in the US, the KKK is still legal too, isn't it?

I believe they started the Crips to clean up their neighbourhoods of all the random violence and crime. Ultimately they became a sort of militia that would protect their friends and fight their enemies. The police wouldn't help them, so they helped themselves.

And I found this as well: The "Tookie Protocol for Peace (http://www.tookie.com/protocol/table.of.contents.html)" - his attempt to end gang violence.

...he killed at least 4 people in cold blood...
I explained what I thought about that.

...who knows what else he may be guilty of.
That's speculation on your part. He maintains his innocence even for the four murders.

there are no more dangerous people out there.
Sure there are. Psychopaths, people who kill because they like to kill.
"Gangstas" however would change their ways if they weren't pressured into this life by their environment and economic situation. They are not inherently evil people, and I refuse to believe that you, or me would have done differently if we had lived his life.

Maybe this just shows the kind of music I listen to...but why?
His murders weren't particularly gruesome, he is not mentally ill, he killed these people during a stick-up I understand - in other words for money.
He's not a "killer" as in someone who kills for the sake of killing. Take away the Gangsta-Lifestyle, the lack of money and the ghettos, and he wouldn't have killed anyone.

Surely there are a lot more dangerous people out there.

Ever heard of Saloth Sar? A child of the poor years of Cambodia, a product of the weakness of the Cambodian education system, a victim of the Cambodian Secret Police in the 50's (he was forced into hiding for his political beliefs), he suffered during the destabilisation of Cambodia by the bloody war in Viet Nam.

It is not clear if Saloth Sar ever killed a single human being. So - 'sanity' is irrelevent, 'gruesome-ness' is irrelevent, 'killing-for-the-sake-of-killing' is irrelevent.

Take away his poor upbringing, the shoddy education system left in Cambodia under French rule, and the combined oppressions of Cambodian Secret Police, and the US war 'next door'... and you might have had a model citizen. (He even attended a monastery, for a time).

Instead - he is held accountable for almost two-and-a-half MILLION deaths (maybe more), in a four-year-period.

What a man does with his OWN hand, is NOT equal to the extent of his influence.

Instead - he is held accountable for almost two-and-a-half MILLION deaths (maybe more), in a four-year-period.

What a man does with his OWN hand, is NOT equal to the extent of his influence.
And if you took away his influence, would he be a danger to anyone? Chances are that he wouldn't be.

So killing him is of no use. Unless you want to do it for revenge, in which case I can't help you.

Was. And besides...the government didn't care, and founding an "organisation" is okay in the US, the KKK is still legal too, isn't it?

I believe they started the Crips to clean up their neighbourhoods of all the random violence and crime. Ultimately they became a sort of militia that would protect their friends and fight their enemies. The police wouldn't help them, so they helped themselves.

And I found this as well: The "Tookie Protocol for Peace (http://www.tookie.com/protocol/table.of.contents.html)" - his attempt to end gang violence.


I explained what I thought about that.


That's speculation on your part. He maintains his innocence even for the four murders.


Sure there are. Psychopaths, people who kill because they like to kill.
"Gangstas" however would change their ways if they weren't pressured into this life by their environment and economic situation. They are not inherently evil people, and I refuse to believe that you, or me would have done differently if we had lived his life.
so you would only impose the death penalty on people who could be certified psychopaths?? (IF you were in favor of the death penalty)

there are millions of people who grow up in bad families in bad neighborhoods. people who are poor, go to bad schools, are surrounded by gangs. the vast majority never kill anyone.

maybe they should take their "4 free killin's" that they are due because of their bad circumstances.

so you would only impose the death penalty on people who could be certified psychopaths?? (IF you were in favor of the death penalty)
Well, even that is too much for me. I'm not in favour, and there is no way I could tell you otherwise.
If someone cannot be cured, they need to sit in jail for the rest of their life - but you can't kill anyone.

maybe they should take their "4 free killin's" that they are due because of their bad circumstances.
Never said that.
The point is that I can understand the situation. A human life had no worth where he lived, he had seen that enough. People were being killed all around him, and the police did nothing.

I'm not saying he should get off scot-free, I'm saying he doesn't deserve death.

And most of all I'm saying that he is a person like you and me, that we can't claim the moral high ground and say we're somehow different. He's not a monster.

And if you took away his influence, would he be a danger to anyone? Chances are that he wouldn't be.

So killing him is of no use. Unless you want to do it for revenge, in which case I can't help you.

Stanley Williams, (also known as 'Tookie') has been responsible for FAR more deaths than the four that are being dropped on his doorstep.

Every time a Crips gan member has harmed another human being, the blame has been on Stanley Williams.

It is almost irrelevent what Williams has done SINCE he was imprisoned, just as it is irrelevent that Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) is dead... the fact is that history SHOULD record both men as monsters.

Williams SHOULD be held accountable for ALL of the suffering he has spawned.

(Oh - and of, course, the DIFFERENCE between Williams and Pol Pot, is that Williams has killed people, himself... so... with his 'influence removed', Williams is STILL a murderer).

Ever heard of Saloth Sar? ... he suffered during the destabilisation of Cambodia by the bloody war in Viet Nam.

Take away ... the US war 'next door'... and you might have had a model citizen.
So now the US is "responsible" for some demented asshole who kills most of his own people? Utter, complete and TOTAL bullshit!

And most of all I'm saying that he is a person like you and me, that we can't claim the moral high ground and say we're somehow different. He's not a monster.

And, I'm saying bullshit.

I grew up in an underpriviliged community, I lived in what amounts to a ghetto, I had NO money, and we lived in poverty. There were 'badboys' where I lived, people that took an easy way out.

But, I didn't?

So - what is different about me? How am I different to Stanley Williams?

At heart - he is a murderer, a thug, and a progenitor of thugs. And, I'm not.

You cannot place ALL the blame for a man's evil, on his upbringing.

Everyone is accountable for their OWN actions, at some point.

Every time a Crips gan member has harmed another human being, the blame has been on Stanley Williams.
If you say so.
To use another example...the Abu Ghraib Guards were "bad apples", were they?

Williams SHOULD be held accountable for ALL of the suffering he has spawned.
Sure. And killing him is going to do that exactly how?

funny how things work, when your faced with death, your attitude changes. happens with alot of death row inmates. they all of a sudden find jesus and can no longer do bad.

are we to let every man and woman that changes attitude off of their sentence?

And, I'm saying bullshit.
No, what you are doing is taking the easy way out by making this a good vs evil issue.

funny how things work, when your faced with death, your attitude changes. happens with alot of death row inmates. they all of a sudden find jesus and can no longer do bad.

are we to let every man and woman that changes attitude off of their sentence?
Not "every man and woman," no. But where they have had great impact for good, and are generally recognized as having done so, just a bit of mercy might be appropriate, don't you think?

So now the US is "responsible" for some demented asshole who kills most of his own people? Utter, complete and TOTAL bullshit!

Call it what you want. Saloth Sar was even a member of the Viet Minh.

But, there is no point burying your head in the sand. The history is there... and, to be honest, I'm surprised YOU are trying to deny it.

Surely, you KNOW that US opposition to the Viet Cong, forced the (former) King (Sihanouk - believed to be a Viet Cong sympathiser) out of office, to place a US 'puppet' in his place - in the form of Lon Nol?

Surely, you KNOW that the (former) KIng (Sihanouk) joined forces with Saloth Sar, at that point, to try to oust the US puppet governer?

Surely, you KNOW that Nixon ordered US Troops into Cambodia to wipe out Viet Cong strongholds?

Surely, you KNOW, that Lon Nol became more and more unpopular, due to the presence of US troops in Cambodia?

Indeed - surely you MUST know, that the Khmer Rouge basically came to power BECAUSE of US bombing of Viet Cong targets in Cambodia?

Surely, you KNOW that the pullout of US troops in 73 left Cambodia with a puppet governor with no backup? The Khmer Rouge seized power almost the instant that the US abandoned Lon Nol.

(And, of course.... where did Lon Nol diappear to, once he was ousted?)


I don't know how else you would define it. The US forced out the legitimate (and stable) leadership, started a war 'next door', brought the conflict across the borders, and forced the situation that led DIRECTLY to the Khmer Rouge gaining power.

If the US is NOT "responsible" for "some demented asshole who kills most of his own people"... then I don't see how.

Not "every man and woman," no. But where they have had great impact for good, and are generally recognized as having done so, just a bit of mercy might be appropriate, don't you think?

no i dont. he was sentenced, most likely with a jury of his peers. and they decide this is what he gets for doing what he did.

that was decided before he all of a suden became a good man, wrote stories, and saw the light. he commited the crime, so it is time for him to pay the price for his actions.

If you say so.
To use another example...the Abu Ghraib Guards were "bad apples", were they?


What is your point, exactly?

They commited abuses because they were raised poor? Because they were 'black'?

Where is your parallel?


Sure. And killing him is going to do that exactly how?

He has forsaken his right to be a member of the society into which he was born. Thus - it should no longer be compelled to sustain him.

Letting him starve to death would be cruelty, though... a lethal injection is a painless alternative.

No, what you are doing is taking the easy way out by making this a good vs evil issue.

So, now you can tell me what I 'mean', better than I can?

Pol Pot may or may NOT have hurt people, directly.

He certainly DID cause harm by his influence.

Williams (it appears) DID cause harm, directly, AND caused harm by his influence.

Two words, Personal Responsibility.

Just because he wrote some childrens books doesn't mean he's innocent. He hasn't renounced his Crips membership. Hasn't done anything to help stop the violence by helping the police. Childrens books are not going to turn anyone away from a gang life when its glorified by Rappers and the hip-hop culture. Its like setting them infront of a T.V. with an episode of Walker Texas Ranger on. The shit isn't going to change their lives.

For people like Tookie the death penalty should be expanded to include all murders, rapist, pedophiles. Most if not all people who commit these types of crimes as soon as their let out they commit the act again maybe not the next day but eventually. For the rapist how many women have to be traumatized in order to finally have a rapist put away for good so they don't harm another innocent? Even the pedophiles will do it. There is a story about twelve convicted child molesters that got released in New york at least one raped and killed a young girl (I think she was about 11). Think while their out walking the streets how many more children can be molested by them?

Tookie explained how he enjoyed the sounds he man when he killed the army Vetran. He shot him twice in the back and said he enjoyed the sounds as the man died on the floor. Also said that he like robbing Asians because they had money and were scared of his size back then. Does that really sound like sombody who will all of a sudden turn their life around. Tookie is just a coward trying to save his sorry pathetic life. He knows who its like for the four people we know he murdered. Even worse he killed them over money. What stopped him from just getting a job like everyone else? Why did his gains have to come at the lose of four lives.

Where is your parallel?
I would've thought that was obvious.
The soldiers in the prison did horrible things. So did the troops in My Lai. Or the butchers of Wounded Knee.
Are you going to blame the founder of the US Army for those things?

He has forsaken his right to be a member of the society into which he was born.
Hardly your decision. And besides, what society was that?
Clean, white suburbia? Or the place where random thugs would kill anyone or anything for money, the police would help and that was accepted practice?

So, now you can tell me what I 'mean', better than I can?
You are continuously avoiding the idea that Tookie might not be all that different from you or me. People flip in certain circumstances, that has been shown by dozens of experiments. Our high morals and values are only superimposed, and can easily be taken out.

Call it what you want. Saloth Sar was even a member of the Viet Minh.

But, there is no point burying your head in the sand. The history is there... and, to be honest, I'm surprised YOU are trying to deny it.

Surely, you KNOW that US opposition to the Viet Cong, forced the (former) King (Sihanouk - believed to be a Viet Cong sympathiser) out of office, to place a US 'puppet' in his place - in the form of Lon Nol?

Surely, you KNOW that the (former) KIng (Sihanouk) joined forces with Saloth Sar, at that point, to try to oust the US puppet governer?

Surely, you KNOW that Nixon ordered US Troops into Cambodia to wipe out Viet Cong strongholds?

Surely, you KNOW, that Lon Nol became more and more unpopular, due to the presence of US troops in Cambodia?

Indeed - surely you MUST know, that the Khmer Rouge basically came to power BECAUSE of US bombing of Viet Cong targets in Cambodia?

Surely, you KNOW that the pullout of US troops in 73 left Cambodia with a puppet governor with no backup? The Khmer Rouge seized power almost the instant that the US abandoned Lon Nol.

I don't know how else you would define it. The US forced out the legitimate (and stable) leadership, started a war 'next door', brought the conflict across the borders, and forced the situation that led DIRECTLY to the Khmer Rouge gaining power.
I "KNOW" nothing of the sort, so you can drop the condescending manner and present some actual, like ... evidence if you want me to "KNOW."

no i dont. he was sentenced, most likely with a jury of his peers. and they decide this is what he gets for doing what he did.
I suspect, although I have nothing to back it up, that the Judge was the one who decided that the death penalty was more appropriate than life in prison. I think it depends upon Sate law.

I would've thought that was obvious.
The soldiers in the prison did horrible things. So did the troops in My Lai. Or the butchers of Wounded Knee.
Are you going to blame the founder of the US Army for those things?


The soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not recruited specifically for the purpose of torturing people, one assumes.

I guess, of course, that depends on quite how far UP the chain you believe the scandal started...

Williams created an organisation that serves the purpose of being a gang.

Do you not believe that the Founders of the movement, have some responsibility for how the KKK turned out?

Do you not believe that Stalin must be held somewhat accountable for the deaths 'on his watch'?



Hardly your decision. And besides, what society was that?
Clean, white suburbia? Or the place where random thugs would kill anyone or anything for money, the police would help and that was accepted practice?


The 'society' into which Williams was born, is the SAME society I live in... he was a member of the society of the United States of America. He has chosen to forego the privileges of that society, since he hasn't felt the need to be held by the constraints of that society.

And, again... thugs killed where I came from. When there were big conflicts on the streets, the police would turn up and wait till it was over, and then arrest anyone who had been badly enough injured that they couldn't escape.

Lots of people had crappy upbringings, in crappy places, with crappy surroundings, and that ever pervasive corruption and disorder.

Not ALL of us turned into killers, or started pseudo-militaristic organisations.


You are continuously avoiding the idea that Tookie might not be all that different from you or me. People flip in certain circumstances, that has been shown by dozens of experiments. Our high morals and values are only superimposed, and can easily be taken out.

That's because I see no evidence to support it.

You make your assertions, but I don't accept them... certainly not without any kind of evidence.

I don't accept your attempt to absolve Williams of any guilt for his actions.

I "KNOW" nothing of the sort, so you can drop the condescending manner and present some actual, like ... evidence if you want me to "KNOW."

Really?

I thought you served in the military?

My mistake, I guess... I must be confusing you with another poster...

I wasn't aware that I was claiming anything unknown here... we discussed Pol Pot at school. I assumed it was common knowledge.

I'll hunt down some evidence.

Really?

I thought you served in the military?

My mistake, I guess... I must be confusing you with another poster...

I wasn't aware that I was claiming anything unknown here... we discussed Pol Pot at school. I assumed it was common knowledge.

I'll hunt down some evidence.
And more of the condescention. Sigh. I would think you would know better by now.

And more of the condescention. Sigh. I would think you would know better by now.

Really? I was condescending again?

Perhaps you are seeing what you want to see, my friend...

What do you take issue with THIS time?

Really? I was condescending again?

Perhaps you are seeing what you want to see, my friend...

What do you take issue with THIS time?

He's probably taking issue with all the condescention, y'know? It's not too hard to see.

Williams created an organisation that serves the purpose of being a gang.
And that purpose was to clean up the streets. As I said a billion times, there was random violence, hold-ups and all the rest of it. And the police did nothing.
The Crips were founded (among other reasons) as a quasi-police force there. I won't deny that Williams was something of a Black Supremacist, that he would've liked black people (like him) to rule their own destiny, and that he wasn't exactly fond of White people.
But I'm not sure how much you even know about the history of all that.

Do you not believe that the Founders of the movement, have some responsibility for how the KKK turned out?
Obviously. But those guys never went to jail before the things started to get bad.
He went to jail in 1979.

Do you not believe that Stalin must be held somewhat accountable for the deaths 'on his watch'?
Same as Pol Pot. Except that Stalin really had psychological problems moreso.

He has chosen to forego the privileges of that society, since he hasn't felt the need to be held by the constraints of that society.
Privileges? Tell me, what kind of privilege did he have that other Americans enjoyed?

And, again... thugs killed where I came from. When there were big conflicts on the streets, the police would turn up and wait till it was over, and then arrest anyone who had been badly enough injured that they couldn't escape.
I guess it kinda matters what your skin colour is if you don't mind me asking. And when and where exactly did you grow up?

Close to my neighbourhood there also was a lot of crime, and from time to time someone was shot. That hardly means that I can at all liken that situation to what was happening in the 60s and 70s in South Central (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Los_Angeles#1948-1960s).

That's because I see no evidence to support it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I don't accept your attempt to absolve Williams of any guilt for his actions.
I'm not doing that, and I told you so. I am merely arguing that the situation he had to live in is a mitigating circumstance.

He's probably taking issue with all the condescention, y'know? It's not too hard to see.

More with the cryptic, and nobody can manage a straight reply?

And I am the condescending one?

I would have assumed that, if someone served in the military, they would have a vague idea about the military 'history', if you will. So - no condescension, there...

There are several hundred people that post on NationStates forums, and I certainly can't keep ALL of them straight. I once spent something like 30 posts arguing with... Corneliu(?) because I thought he was someone else... So - perhaps, my assumption that someone HAD been in the military could be faulty... which would, of course explain why they didn't 'get' the points I was making.... still seeing no condescension.

We really DID study Pol Pot at school.... I really DID think there was a certain amount of common knowledge there.... still not seeing my 'condescension'...

Well, even that is too much for me. I'm not in favour, and there is no way I could tell you otherwise.
If someone cannot be cured, they need to sit in jail for the rest of their life - but you can't kill anyone.


Never said that.
The point is that I can understand the situation. A human life had no worth where he lived, he had seen that enough. People were being killed all around him, and the police did nothing.

I'm not saying he should get off scot-free, I'm saying he doesn't deserve death.

And most of all I'm saying that he is a person like you and me, that we can't claim the moral high ground and say we're somehow different. He's not a monster.

i hear you saying that you dont think there should ever be a death penalty.

i quite agree

im just saying that THIS guy doesnt deserve to be an exception, if we are going to be putting people to death.

And that purpose was to clean up the streets. As I said a billion times, there was random violence, hold-ups and all the rest of it. And the police did nothing.
The Crips were founded (among other reasons) as a quasi-police force there. I won't deny that Williams was something of a Black Supremacist, that he would've liked black people (like him) to rule their own destiny, and that he wasn't exactly fond of White people.
But I'm not sure how much you even know about the history of all that.


And, thus, you assume I know nothing?

To be honest, though... most of what you are 'preaching' is anecdotal... earlier forms of the Crips structure seem to have predated even Williams influence, although it defintiely became a more cohesive element under his patronage.

Nobody seems quite SURE WHY the Crips started... although there are many different STORIES told.

So - to state as fact that the Crips were formed 'to clear up the streets', is either wishful thinking, lack of knowledge of conflicting stories, or a baseless assertion.


Obviously. But those guys never went to jail before the things started to get bad.
He went to jail in 1979.


An arbitrary date, for anecdotal evidence.


Privileges? Tell me, what kind of privilege did he have that other Americans enjoyed?


How about the freedom to worship? Freedom of speech? The right to work? All those 'rights' ONLY exist because we are members of a society.

Try explaining your 'right to life' to a hungry shark...


I guess it kinda matters what your skin colour is if you don't mind me asking. And when and where exactly did you grow up?

Close to my neighbourhood there also was a lot of crime, and from time to time someone was shot. That hardly means that I can at all liken that situation to what was happening in the 60s and 70s in South Central (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Los_Angeles#1948-1960s).


My skin tone is irrelevent, I believe... since not ALL prejudices centre around complexion... however, I grew up in much the same situation as Williams, but with the roles reversed.... I was a white (Jew) in a violent black neighbourhood.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


Both of which deal with how easy people are to control, or how naturally SOME people are sadistic or masochistic.

Neither actually truly attempts to deal with 'changing' morality.


I'm not doing that, and I told you so. I am merely arguing that the situation he had to live in is a mitigating circumstance.

It's a 'reason'. But, it's no EXCUSE.

Sometimes, justice and mercy are incompatible. Example: suppose Hitler had been captured. Would you want him to be shown mercy, or killed as slowly, agonizingly, and gruesomely as possible?

im just saying that THIS guy doesnt deserve to be an exception, if we are going to be putting people to death.
Well, let's say I can sympathise with him moreso than I could with some crazed pedophile lunatic.
He's a product of the Apartheid that was America for a large part of the 20th century.

And besides, regardless of the person, you can always expect me to argue against putting someone to death, one way or another.

So - to state as fact that the Crips were formed 'to clear up the streets', is either wishful thinking, lack of knowledge of conflicting stories, or a baseless assertion.
Says you who has not offered a single alternative story.

An arbitrary date, for anecdotal evidence.
It was the date of his conviction. There was violence before that between some rival Crip gangs, but nowhere near the forms it took in the Eighties, when he was no longer on the ground and in command.

How about the freedom to worship? Freedom of speech? The right to work? All those 'rights' ONLY exist because we are members of a society.
And those rights are irrelevant if you can't live your life properly because of the crime all around you and the unwillingness of the government to stop it.
His freedom of speech did not matter because the government did not listen. (and besides, what happened to the Black Panthers again?)
His right to work does not matter when he would not be paid enough to support himself and his mother. Especially if people all around him were making the big bucks breaking the law.

I grew up in much the same situation as Williams, but with the roles reversed.... I was a white (Jew) in a violent black neighbourhood.
And how is that the same as Williams?
1. Unless I know which neighbourhood exactly, I can't say whether it was similar, better or worse than LA South Central at the time.
2. Would a gang have accepted you? Did you have a family that you had to care for?
3. Did you experience racism, police beatings and all the rest of it, as Tookie and his mother did?

Neither actually truly attempts to deal with 'changing' morality.
Sure they do. These people are confronted with a situation that conflicts with their ("our") values.
Yet once the pressure on them is strong enough, they disregard those values and do what the situation requires them to do.

It's a 'reason'. But, it's no EXCUSE.
It is something that needs to be considered, alongside all the things he has done since in order to end the violence.

Sometimes, justice and mercy are incompatible. Example: suppose Hitler had been captured. Would you want him to be shown mercy, or killed as slowly, agonizingly, and gruesomely as possible?
Mercy.
He should probably sit in jail for the rest of his life...but he shouldn't be executed. We would be no better than he was if we did.

the man is a founding member of the freaking CRIPS. he killed at least 4 people in cold blood, who knows what else he may be guilty of.

there are no more dangerous people out there.


What about the Zodiac killer? He killed lotsa folks, for no apparent reason. And was never caught.

Sometimes, justice and mercy are incompatible. Example: suppose Hitler had been captured. Would you want him to be shown mercy, or killed as slowly, agonizingly, and gruesomely as possible?

It would be mercy to kill him. It is a far crueler punishment to force someone to live in a jail for their entire life with no hope of escape.

What gives you the right to kill someone, anyway? Should anyone have the right to take away something so precious as a human life, no matter how awful the actions of that life?

Mercy.
He should probably sit in jail for the rest of his life...but he shouldn't be executed. We would be no better than he was if we did.

Or better yet, tortured for the rest of his life by Holocaust survivors.

I bet if he's he escapes the death penalty, every inmate on death throw will suddenly start writing books about the same thing.
And if all that book writing helps a few other young men from making the same mistakes won't the positive impact on society make it worthwhile?