NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the notion of freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia somehow anti-Islamic. Because I have been around various Muslim forums and talked to sevearl Muslims and many of them seem to just natuarally oppose the idea that Saudi Arabia should be a place where religion is free. Is there something in Islams doctirne which says that Saudi Arabia should be the way it is? And if Muslims think this are there parts of the Quran that tell them otherwise?

I'm not a Muslim, but I reckon it might be to do with the passages in the Qu'ran about Mohammed's people fighting wars and driving the enemy out of their lands. Which doesn't apply now - like Moses' extermination of the Canaanites shouldn't apply to Christians.

Anyone who is willing to accept the views of others is OK in my book. Anyone who isn't better get used to a diet of "BOOM, headshot!" with a side dish of jingoistic firepower. I can't speak for the rest of America, but I know I'm not alone in saying I'm willing to go to war with anyone who seems to think they have the right to hurt people for thinking differently than them.

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!
So long as it's directly demonstrated that it's a threat to you. *becomes bitter about WW2*

Anyone who is willing to accept the views of others is OK in my book. Anyone who isn't better get used to a diet of "BOOM, headshot!" with a side dish of jingoistic firepower. I can't speak for the rest of America, but I know I'm not alone in saying I'm willing to go to war with anyone who seems to think they have the right to hurt people for thinking differently than them.

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!

With an attitude like that (which in my opinon may be over zelous but directed correctly) would you be interested in signing my pertition for Saudi Arabian Religious Freedom?

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html

Anyone who is willing to accept the views of others is OK in my book. Anyone who isn't better get used to a diet of "BOOM, headshot!" with a side dish of jingoistic firepower. I can't speak for the rest of America, but I know I'm not alone in saying I'm willing to go to war with anyone who seems to think they have the right to hurt people for thinking differently than them.

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!

I'll call you a hypocrite. You think you have the right to go to war, aka hurt people, with a nation for having different views than you, the belief that they don't allow different views, and hurt people with them. Aren't you doing the same as them?

Barbarian.

Is the notion of freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia somehow anti-Islamic.
Religions in general aren't that keen on other religions. The more religious a country is, the less likely it is to welcome other religions.

Saudi Arabia was created over a thousand years after Muhammed died, so none of the ancient scriptures will have anything to say on the issue.

Islam;
intolerant of other religions, literal interpretation of their holy book treats non muslims as 2nd class people.

Sounds just like christianity 200 years ago.

I too have a question for any Muslims on the board, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but... does everyone really pray 5 times a day? like, honestly? If you live in a Muslim country, then I guess it might be harder for people to get away with not doing it, what with the call to prayer ... but have you ever say, been in a foreign country and just thought "oh shoot, missed prayer... eh, nevermind."? I know hotels in some parts of the world have Mecca compasses in a drawer, does anyone ever use those? As I said, don't take this the wrong way, I'm just curious :p

I'll call you a hypocrite. You think you have the right to go to war, aka hurt people, with a nation for having different views than you, the belief that they don't allow different views, and hurt people with them. Aren't you doing the same as them?

Barbarian.

Its live and let live

Basicly the policy that you are allowed to hurt/aprehend someone if they are not allowing people those freedoms.

I'll call you a hypocrite. You think you have the right to go to war, aka hurt people, with a nation for having different views than you, the belief that they don't allow different views, and hurt people with them. Aren't you doing the same as them?

Barbarian.

How is a crazy man who had to hire several copies of himself, build numerous palaces, and denied most of the UN considered "thinking different" ?

Flamebait ftl.

I'll call you a hypocrite. You think you have the right to go to war, aka hurt people, with a nation for having different views than you, the belief that they don't allow different views, and hurt people with them. Aren't you doing the same as them?

Barbarian.

Its so barbaric of us to try and uphold human rights in oppressed countries.

With an attitude like that (which in my opinon may be over zelous but directed correctly) would you be interested in signing my pertition for Saudi Arabian Religious Freedom?

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html
SIGNED! ;)

Its so barbaric of us to try and uphold human rights in oppressed countries.

Militarily, yes it is barbaric. And you missed the whole point, anyway.

Canada City']How is a crazy man who had to hire several copies of himself, build numerous palaces, and denied most of the UN considered "thinking different" ?

Flamebait ftl.
Were we not talking about Saudi Arabia? I agree with New Viteria. I don't agree with what happens in Saudi Arabia but what Sick Nightmares said is rank with hypocracy. As if America has a claim to objective morality.

I can't speak for the rest of America, but I know I'm not alone in saying I'm willing to go to war with anyone who seems to think they have the right to hurt people for thinking differently than them.

:p ROFLMFAO!!!!:p

sigged

*leaves thread never to return*

As if America has a claim to objective morality.

America in theory is based on liberty of the people and yeah some people are corrupt and they might do some things for ulterior motives but you can't compare a country with "freedom of religion and speech" to these Islamic countries.

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!

Oh, and incidently what about all of the barbaric dictatorships that the US supports?

I'll call you a hypocrite. You think you have the right to go to war, aka hurt people, with a nation for having different views than you, the belief that they don't allow different views, and hurt people with them. Aren't you doing the same as them?

Barbarian.
Call me a hypocrite all you want! If you want to put an apple up your butt in your living room, I'll fight for your right. If you want to worship Satan in your basement, then I'll fight for that too!

If you want to oppress 27 million people to further your own twisted goals, then me, my sons and daughters, and friend and neighbors, and even perfect strangers from every corner of this country will come and blow the fuck out of your army, and we will stay there and fight every fucking terrorist on the block who wants to blow us up until you can handle it yourselves!

Or we can can just stay home and let people get fed into chippers. As far as I can tell, it's the worlds call right now. Make the choice.

SIGNED! ;)

Thank you very much. If you could pass out the URL to others who may be interested too, it would be most helpful

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html

Thank you very much. If you could pass out the URL to others who may be interested too, it would be most helpful

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html

I've signed it and I'll pass it on to anyone I know who might be interested.

Thank you very much. If you could pass out the URL to others who may be interested too, it would be most helpful

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html
I'll pass it on, but I have to say, it probably won't work. All that rich oppressive governments understand are 500 pound bombs dropped into their palaces.

Sad but true.

Islam;
intolerant of other religions, literal interpretation of their holy book treats non muslims as 2nd class people.

Sounds just like christianity 200 years ago.

Yes, all Muslims are intolerant and interprete their holy book literally and treat other people as 2nd class.


Start living in the real world, come back and say something decent.

Yes, all Muslims are intolerant and interprete their holy book literally and treat other people as 2nd class.


Start living in the real world, come back and say something decent.

The book is supposed to be interpreted literally, if you don't your not a true muslim by definition. If you'll read the book it specifically says women and non muslims are inferior to men. I don't mind someone in the U.K who is a muslim (often because their parents wouldn't allow them not to be) but if they practiced what their book teaches which is what muslims are supposed to do then it causes the problems a lot of Asia is facing.

Yes, all Muslims are intolerant and interprete their holy book literally and treat other people as 2nd class.

Start living in the real world, come back and say something decent.

In the real world, that is happening in Saudi Arabia. That is the problem

Oh, and incidently what about all of the barbaric dictatorships that the US supports?
Shhh, they don't count.

Ya see, countries like America and Great Britain are trying to take care of this problem, nation by nation. But there are so many people bitching about it, that we can't finish it unless everyone else either gets onboard or just shuts the fuck up and lets us do what we do.

Shhh, they don't count.
We have our reasons.

Ya see, countries like America and Great Britain are trying to take care of this problem, nation by nation. But there are so many people bitching about it, that we can't finish it unless everyone else either gets onboard or just shuts the fuck up and lets us do what we do.

The main problem I feel. How do we take care of people who fail to use rationality would die to keep their power and will try to kill us for any involvement we try to make.

With an attitude like that (which in my opinon may be over zelous but directed correctly) would you be interested in signing my pertition for Saudi Arabian Religious Freedom?

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html

Also signed.

The main problem I feel. How do we take care of people who fail to use rationality would die to keep their power and will try to kill us for any involvement we try to make.
We kill every motherfucking last one of them who refuse to let people just live their lives.

To Secure Peace is to Prepare for War!

The main problem I feel. How do we take care of people who fail to use rationality would die to keep their power and will try to kill us for any involvement we try to make.

Not everybody in hte world thinks the same as America. Some of them are willing to sacrifice their equality, or freedom, for faith. As much as it may sound absurd to you, it's reality. Not everybody's the same.

And for the record, Islam does allow tolerance of other religions, most importantly during the of persecution in Christianity, they were taken into sanctuaries by Islam.

Apparently the Muslims treated the Christians in the western half of the former roman empire better than their orthodox brothers in the Byzantine empire.

We have our reasons.

Would you deign to share them with us enlightened one?:rolleyes:

Would you deign to share them with us enlightened one?:rolleyes:
Sure will. We are human! We have interests to protect. It is America first, and then other nations second. It would be pointless to be the wonderfully sweet nation who's economy goes in the crapper because we didn't do what we needed to do to maintain the power to do what we do.

Nobody really likes the C.I.A. covert ops, or the spec ops missions, but it keeps us the dominant force on the planet, so that when it comes down to it, we can go into Afghanistan and Iraq, and still have enough power to be safe at home.

Nobody said we were perfect, and god knows we do bad things some times, but you have to remember that what happened in 1960 was necessary, as was 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and most specifically 2002-5.

We do what we do to maintain who we are, which is the only superpower EVER who has actually given a damn about anything but a land grab. Remember, we are still planning on leaving power in the hands of locals when our job is done. Know any other superpower who's ever done that?

It ain't easy being the big dog in the house. You have to bite sometimes.

Call Americans whatever you want, but you can never say we aren't willing to fight and die for a just cause when we think we can make a difference!
Hear! Hear! [ cheers wildly, stomps feet, loud wolf-whistles ] :)

Nobody really likes the ... covert ops, or the spec ops missions ...
I do! :D

Hear! Hear! [ cheers wildly, stomps feet, loud wolf-whistles ] :)
And in walks a perfect example! How ya doin Eut? :D

Is Sick Nightmares being serious, or is he being sarcastic? Methinks sarcasm.

With an attitude like that (which in my opinon may be over zelous but directed correctly) would you be interested in signing my pertition for Saudi Arabian Religious Freedom?

http://new.petitiononline.com/SARF/petition.html

Nice petition. I signed it. :)

And in walks a perfect example! How ya doin Eut? :D
ROFLMAO! Oh really? :D

I'm pretty ok this mawnin', thanks. Had my first cuppa and already shaking my head at the posts on here. Heh!

It ain't easy being the big dog in the house. You have to bite sometimes.

Then perhaps... we can stop being the "big dog."
Leave imperialism and colonialism to the Old World.

I wonder what George Washington would say...

Sure will. We are human! We have interests to protect. It is America first, and then other nations second. It would be pointless to be the wonderfully sweet nation who's economy goes in the crapper because we didn't do what we needed to do to maintain the power to do what we do.

I'm sure that's exactly how the Saudi government operates as well.

ROFLMAO! Oh really? :D

I'm pretty ok this mawnin', thanks. Had my first cuppa and already shaking my head at the posts on here. Heh!
Damn cold day here in NC, if ya ask me! 57 degrees? I thought this was supposed to be a tropical paradise! Damn wife lyin to me again! Last time she gets to pick where we live!

It's either back to the snow, or down to Florida, damnit! lol

Then perhaps... we can stop being the "big dog."
Leave imperialism and colonialism to the Old World.

I wonder what George Washington would say...
He'd say that it's a damn shame the Liberals are talking about giving up over a 2200 casualties! If he was alive, you could ask him how many men HE lost fighting for what he believed in, and what caliber bullet he put in traitors who suggested surrender!

He'd say that it's a damn shame the Liberals are talking about giving up over a 2200 casualties! If he was alive, you could ask him how many men HE lost fighting for what he believed in, and what caliber bullet he put in traitors who suggested surrender!
Can you say, "musket ball," boys and girls? :D

Hmm...
Don't seem to remember reading that in his Farewell Address.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/49.htm

Sure will. We are human! We have interests to protect. It is America first, and then other nations second. It would be pointless to be the wonderfully sweet nation who's economy goes in the crapper because we didn't do what we needed to do to maintain the power to do what we do.

Nobody really likes the C.I.A. covert ops, or the spec ops missions, but it keeps us the dominant force on the planet, so that when it comes down to it, we can go into Afghanistan and Iraq, and still have enough power to be safe at home.

Nobody said we were perfect, and god knows we do bad things some times, but you have to remember that what happened in 1960 was necessary, as was 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and most specifically 2002-5.

We do what we do to maintain who we are, which is the only superpower EVER who has actually given a damn about anything but a land grab. Remember, we are still planning on leaving power in the hands of locals when our job is done. Know any other superpower who's ever done that?

It ain't easy being the big dog in the house. You have to bite sometimes.

If you want to oppress 27 million people to further your own twisted goals, then me, my sons and daughters, and friend and neighbors, and even perfect strangers from every corner of this country will come and blow the fuck out of your army, and we will stay there and fight every fucking terrorist on the block who wants to blow us up until you can handle it yourselves!

This completely contradicts your earlier claim about America's stand on freedom. You're effectively saying: "We will never tolerate murder and repressionunless the perpetrators are willing to sell us oil."

America has a terrible record of overthrowing democratically elected regimes who act against US interests and replacing them with opressive dictatorships who are friendly towards America. Here's an extract from Wikipedia, detailing the events in Chile after the socialist government nationalised some foreign companies (some American) to improve the lives of the Chilean people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile#History (Wiki)

A military coup supported by the CIA overthrew Allende on September 11, 1973. As the armed forces bombarded the presidential palace (Palacio de La Moneda), Allende reportedly committed suicide. A military government, led by General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, took over control of the country. The first years of the regime were marked by serious human rights violations. At least a thousand people were executed during the first six months of Pinochet in office, and at least two thousand more were killed during the next sixteen years. Some 30,000 were forced to flee the country. A new Constitution was approved by a highly irregular and undemocratic plebiscite characterized by the absence of registration lists, on September 11, 1980, and General Pinochet became President of the Republic for an 8-year term.

So in conclusion, claiming that the US loves freedom and would always fight to defend the rights of the opressed is either naive or down right lying.

Please acknowledge that America to many people means a set of principles or a "land of opportunity" (how ever true or false that may be) and more than just what the government says and does. People don't die trying to get here in order to vote for Bush or Kerry.

Saudi Arabia is not a palce of religious tolerance. Do you have any idea how many jews they kill and persicute? Not to mention the Kurds, Assasins and Shi'ite, all minor forms of Islam.

Saudi Arabia is not a palce of religious tolerance. Do you have any idea how many jews they kill and persicute? Not to mention the Kurds, Assasins and Shi'ite, all minor forms of Islam.
I think you want the Saudi Arabia topic.

SNIP
Bottom line. even if we did go in for no other reason but oil, we could have just bombed the fuck out of the country, slaughtered everyone, and taken what we wanted.

Instead, we are there getting BLOWN UP EVERY DAY to try and save the innocents from having a bunch of murderers take over the country and turn it back into the hell it was.

So don't fucking lecture me about how evil we are. We could have ended this by now if we were willing to kill more civilians. We aren't. Instead, we are losing our own brothers and sister, husbands and wives, moms and dads. We are doing the right thing.

You aren't doing shit, and in a perfect world, there'd be a crime to charge you with for it, you propagandizing hatemonger.

Bottom line. even if we did go in for no other reason but oil, we could have just bombed the fuck out of the country, slaughtered everyone, and taken what we wanted.
No we couldn't, that would have been unjustifiable and undoable. If we had done that, we would be lucky if a few places hadn't declared war on us.

Instead, we are there getting BLOWN UP EVERY DAY to try and save the innocents from having a bunch of murderers take over the country and turn it back into the hell it was.
I thought those were the ones we were putting in power? You think an Islamic "democracy" in a country with the largest split of seperate sects of Islam where the former opressive regime was a member of the minority and the oppressed are the vast majority is going to turn into a fair, happy place full of Carebears and unicorns?

So don't fucking lecture me about how evil we are. We could have ended this by now if we were willing to kill more civilians.
And we could have ended it by now without doing that. Nice try, slick.

We are doing the right thing.
Like we did when we removed democratically elected, pro-Communist governments in favor of anti-Communist, militant dictatorships.

You aren't doing shit, and in a perfect world, there'd be a crime to charge you with for it, you propagandizing hatemonger.
Oh, what a funny person ye be. You claim to support freedom and happiness and fairness and threaten him with a yet non-existant law against free speech for speaking against you.

BLAH BLAH SNIP
Oh, what a funny person ye be. You claim to support freedom and happiness and fairness and threaten him with a yet non-existant law against free speech for speaking against you.
Didn't threaten you. Just said what my perfect world would entail. My perfect world isn't democratic. It's my way or the highway.

Anyways, I'm going night night. Bye now! :D

Was it not you who said America went to war when it was in her interests? Why are we sending Americans "to try and save the innocents from having a bunch of murderers take over the country and turn it back into the hell it was." This practically justifies going into every country on the face of the earth. And on your complaining about liberals (or leftists, as liberals anywhere else but America means an economic conservative) is misguided. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, all were started by Democrats who used arguments like yours, and were opposed by conservatives because they believed America had no buisness going to these places. Wars go along with increasing the State's power, which is NOT conservative, not till neo-cons came, and if neo means new, and they are new conservatives, what do you think they were before they were conservative???

Anyways, I'm going night night. Bye now! :D
Smart idea, your personal philosophy contradicting with what you say makes you look bad.

As an addition to the comment above, many Socialists have always been against all wars.

Firstly, America is not perfect. And the quicker Americans realise this the better. Secondly however, it is not the "great Satan" that many make it out to be either. It has its problems and its redeaming features, like everyone else. The ideal however of liberty (in this case freedom of relgion) is one worth supporting. You may not support America, but you can support the ideal of freedom of religion.

I'll pass it on, but I have to say, it probably won't work. All that rich oppressive governments understand are 500 pound bombs dropped into their palaces.

Sad but true.

*appreciates irony*

Firstly, America is not perfect. And the quicker Americans realise this the better. Secondly however, it is not the "great Satan" that many make it out to be either. It has its problems and its redeaming features, like everyone else. The ideal however of liberty (in this case freedom of relgion) is one worth supporting. You may not support America, but you can support the ideal of freedom of religion.

If I came across as hating Americans in general then I apologise completely, that was never my intention. I haven't met that many Americans personally but the ones I've met have been some of the most pleasant, friendly and optomistic people that I've ever had the pleasure to meet. However, I find American foreign policy to be hypocritical, foolish and sometimes just plain stupid.

I support the right of anyone to do anything that doesn't harm anyone else (I apologise for the convolution of this sentence:) ) and I would support any country that supports this ideal combined with an economic model which distributes the wealth fairly (marxist preferably but if somebody can find a capitalist system that does this I would swallow my pride).

A lot of hating on these forums, nay?

"Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow." (Surat al-Baqara; 2:62)

"Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, 'We have Faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him." (Surat al-`Ankabut; 29:46)

In Islam, the People of the Book (Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians) are to be respected by Muslims and in an Islamic state should be allowed to practice their faith in their privacy. They (People of the Book) are referred to as 'dhimmi' which I think means 'people under protection'. Monotheists are much more respected than polytheists.

Saudi Arabia as a nation has some problems when opening up to other faiths but don't point the finger at the faith of Islam as a whole. In an ideal Islamic state, people of other faiths can't hold positions of major power but can have some lower administrating or bureaucratic powers.

Is the notion of freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia somehow anti-Islamic.

Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion

6:107 Yet if Allah had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:80 Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.

24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

Sunnah:

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

Short answer: NO!

I too have a question for any Muslims on the board, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but... does everyone really pray 5 times a day?

Everyone? No.

However, I do.

As an addition to the comment above, many Socialists have always been against all wars.

Speaking as a Socialist I find war to be a difficult topic to take a stand on.

Nearly all wars are caused by capitalism but it is the common people who end up dying. My personal feeling is that I could only support a war that was being fought primarily to protect freedom and lives.

Is the notion of freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia somehow anti-Islamic. Because I have been around various Muslim forums and talked to sevearl Muslims and many of them seem to just natuarally oppose the idea that Saudi Arabia should be a place where religion is free. Is there something in Islams doctirne which says that Saudi Arabia should be the way it is? And if Muslims think this are there parts of the Quran that tell them otherwise?
Saudia Arabia.....eh...

...I mean...c'mon....Mecca's there...I think.

And even still, I doubt you'll see any Jews running around waving the Israeli flag in that God-foresaken country.

And even still, I doubt you'll see any Jews running around waving the Israeli flag in that God-foresaken country.

Dayenu

Speaking as a Socialist I find war to be a difficult topic to take a stand on.

Nearly all wars are caused by capitalism but it is the common people who end up dying. My personal feeling is that I could only support a war that was being fought primarily to protect freedom and lives.

Given that war has existed since the advent of historical records and that capitalism has existed for under two centuries in any meaningful form your theory that most wars are caused by capitalism seems a little silly.

Given that war has existed since the advent of historical records and that capitalism has existed for under two centuries in any meaningful form your theory that most wars are caused by capitalism seems a little silly.

If you apply the idea of Capitalism slightly more loosely it works perfectly. Capitalism at its most basic is all about trying to get more for yourself by outcompeting rivals (be they other job applicants, businesses or nations).

Wars between petty kingdoms for land and resources? I would count that as Capitalism of a kind.

The crusades were largely about money, that's why they sacked the Christian city of Constantinople on the way back, because they hadn't got enough money from pillaging the holy land.

Hell, you could even count the border disputes and sheep rustling of the scottish highlands as a kindof Capitalism although I realise that might be going a bit far...

Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion

6:107 Yet if Allah had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:80 Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.

24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

Sunnah:

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

Short answer: NO!

Thank you for these, I will have to show them to some Muslims who think that it is

If you apply the idea of Capitalism slightly more loosely it works perfectly. Capitalism at its most basic is all about trying to get more for yourself by outcompeting rivals (be they other job applicants, businesses or nations).

Wars between petty kingdoms for land and resources? I would count that as Capitalism of a kind.

The crusades were largely about money, that's why they sacked the Christian city of Constantinople on the way back, because they hadn't got enough money from pillaging the holy land.

Hell, you could even count the border disputes and sheep rustling of the scottish highlands as a kindof Capitalism although I realise that might be going a bit far...

Since all resources are by their nature limited then any act undertaken by a human being is essentially an act of competition. If you wish to define capitalism as this, then my very breathing the air at this moment is an act of capitalism since I am attempting to "get more for myself" even if it is at the expense of others.

Your problem seems to be with the human condition, not with a political system.

Since all resources are by their nature limited then any act undertaken by a human being is essentially an act of competition. If you wish to define capitalism as this, then my very breathing the air at this moment is an act of capitalism since I am attempting to "get more for myself" even if it is at the expense of others.

Your problem seems to be with the human condition, not with a political system.
Haven't you heard? All the world problems are due to capitalism, democracy and freedom of religion.:rolleyes:

Since all resources are by their nature limited then any act undertaken by a human being is essentially an act of competition. If you wish to define capitalism as this, then my very breathing the air at this moment is an act of capitalism since I am attempting to "get more for myself" even if it is at the expense of others.

Your problem seems to be with the human condition, not with a political system.

Don't be obtuse, as long as we have enough plants and trees then air (or more accurately oxygen) will be a renewing resource, it is not finite.

And no, my problem is with a political system. If humans worked together rather than constantly competing against each other we could achieve so much more. We could start to make an impact on global warming and poverty for a start.

my very breathing the air at this moment is an act of capitalism since I am attempting to "get more for myself"

Greedy bastard!

Thank you for these, I will have to show them to some Muslims who think that it is

By all means! And show them to non-Muslims who think Islam is all about killing infidels, too.

By all means! And show them to non-Muslims who think Islam is all about killing infidels, too.

Ahhh, Keruvalia. A true voice of faith and reason. You always give me a warm, fuzzy feeling when you talk about your faith. I just wanna hug you! :fluffle:

If you apply the idea of Capitalism slightly more loosely it works perfectly. Capitalism at its most basic is all about trying to get more for yourself by outcompeting rivals (be they other job applicants, businesses or nations).

Wars between petty kingdoms for land and resources? I would count that as Capitalism of a kind.

The crusades were largely about money, that's why they sacked the Christian city of Constantinople on the way back, because they hadn't got enough money from pillaging the holy land.

Hell, you could even count the border disputes and sheep rustling of the scottish highlands as a kindof Capitalism although I realise that might be going a bit far...

Actually, it's about making a profit. It's initially a 'what you make, you earn' ideal, but that doesn't work when you get the 'backstab to stay on top' capitalism. Also, Capitalism doesn't work.

We kill every motherfucking last one of them who refuse to let people just live their lives.

To Secure Peace is to Prepare for War!
:rolleyes: And I supose you would blame them for doing the same back?

Actually, it's about making a profit. It's initially a 'what you make, you earn' ideal, but that doesn't work when you get the 'backstab to stay on top' capitalism. Also, Capitalism doesn't work.
Ermm its working well for the USA, EU, Japan and China (state-owned capitalism).

Don't be obtuse, as long as we have enough plants and trees then air (or more accurately oxygen) will be a renewing resource, it is not finite.

And no, my problem is with a political system. If humans worked together rather than constantly competing against each other we could achieve so much more. We could start to make an impact on global warming and poverty for a start.

I meet very few self-proclaimed socialists that aren't obtuse so don't start with that. Since we are not always guaranteed enough plants and trees then oxygen is not an infinite resource, but that's not relevant to my point which is that almost all of what human beings desire is finite, competition is inevitable.

As for having a system that "makes people work together", I think that kind've ambiguosly warm and fuzzy language is best suited to kindergarten books rather than intelligent political dialogue - the idea that whether or not we help each other stems from politics rather than human choice is nonsense. That aside, there is the more general point that I think competition brings out the best in people, that it is not needlessly destructive but is constantly provoking people to better themselves which in turn benefits humanity as a whole.

Ahhh, Keruvalia. A true voice of faith and reason. You always give me a warm, fuzzy feeling when you talk about your faith. I just wanna hug you! :fluffle:

Allah has shown me a glorious and wonderful vision of the world where everyone is my brother or sister, there is no poverty or need, and social injustice is at an end. That vision comes from Qur'an.

It will take a lot of work, though, but it gets accomplished one hug at a time. So hug away!

Allah has shown me a glorious and wonderful vision of the world where everyone is my brother or sister, there is no poverty or need, and social injustice is at an end. That vision comes from Qur'an.

It will take a lot of work, though, but it gets accomplished one hug at a time. So hug away!
Another Flower Child plan to take over the world? :p

Another Flower Child plan to take over the world? :p

Nope, just one of the few remaining free thinkers in the world not tainted by cynicism or MTV.

Nope, just one of the few remaining free thinkers in the world not tainted by cynicism or MTV.
But MTV is a blessing! Its a brilliant introduction into shallow mass culture, devoid of any aspect of individuality. :eek: How else will you know who Paris Hilton plans on sleeping with next or how many times a person can use the word "fuck" in a sentence?

But MTV is a blessing! Its a brilliant introduction into shallow mass culture, devoid of any aspect of individuality. :eek: How else will you know who Paris Hilton plans on sleeping with next or how many times a person can use the word "fuck" in a sentence?

That, my dear, is what the Interweb is for. :D

That, my dear, is what the Interweb is for. :D
Depends on how you use it ;)

Anyone who is willing to accept the views of others is OK in my book. Anyone who isn't better get used to a diet of "BOOM, headshot!" with a side dish of jingoistic firepower. I can't speak for the rest of America, but I know I'm not alone in saying I'm willing to go to war with anyone who seems to think they have the right to hurt people for thinking differently than them.

How amazingly hypocritical.

"You gonna kill you for having an opinion different than mine about the freedom of opinions".