NationStates Jolt Archive

I'd like to discuss an issue that has come up a number of times in the last few weeks, regarding heritage..."Germanic Blood" in particular.

So I'll start by putting up a few pics, and you tell me what of those things are German to you.

Picture 1 (http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/images/elmarberlin.jpg)

Picture 2 (http://www.reichslieder.com/0183_hj_arbeiter.jpg)

Picture 3 (http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~smayhall/Oktoberfest(brassband).jpg)

Picture 4 (http://www.jasondawe.com/MercedesSClass.jpg)

Picture 5 (http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,127342_6,00.jpg)

Picture 6 (http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2755/minime2pv.jpg)

Picture 7 (http://www.historyplace.com/specials/calendar/docs-pix/otto-bismarck.jpg)

My point is this:
I want to find out what "German" means.

Obviously it carries all sorts of connotations. People don't say they have German Ancestors for any reason - they want to say something about themselves.

Germany has worked for 60 years now to find this out, while at the same time getting rid of the old ideas. And I find that while Germany has to some extent been able to banish the ideas of an ethnic "Germanic" people, it seems to be very alive everywhere else.

So to all Germans and those that claim German Ancestry:

"What does it mean to be German?"

Heil Hitler!

Heil Hitler!
If I could, I would punch you right now.

But since I can't, I'll simply give you one of these:
:rolleyes:

Where's the big-busted serving wench with the bier steins and a huge smile?

I picked 3. A couple others were close, but 3 was best.

It's all German.

Germany is a diverse nation with a rich history and a striking dichotomy. It's an cultural and intellectual breeding ground, home to Luther, Bach, Mozart, Freud, Marx, Einstein. At the same time, it's the home of tyrants like Bismarck and Hitler. Germany produced modern industrialism and Nazism, racial puritainism and rich multiethnicism. It's wrong to ignore some of Germany's darker times, but it's just as wrong to condemn the entire nation for its past.

Mai Gott segnen das Vaterland.:)

Who would be in picture 6? I picked 4, 6 and 7.

I acknowledge my Dutch (germanic) roots as part of my heritage. One thing you must realise is that we South Africans are not welcome in our home country. Sadly, this is the result of Dutch colonialism. We must live with it today. The nearest heritage we have is our European one. Thus, it is only natural that we embrace it. South Africa is quickly becoming an exclusively african country. We are being denied of even having a nation at this point.

3-6

#1 isn't because it frightens me in a great way. And I refuse to vote for anything that frightens me in a great way.

#2 isn't because your average German doesn't exactly subscribe to the idealogy of Nazionalsozialismus these days.

#3 is because there's leiderhosen in the picture.

#4 is because Mercedes is a German firm, and it's better than BMW

#5 is because there's more to being German than being a pasty white dude.

#6 is because you look nearly exactly like another German guy I know, down to the glasses. I'd almost say you're his twin.

#7 Two words...POINTY HAT!!!!!

Who would be in picture 6?
That would be me. :D

An example of a fairly average person with a German Passport.(It's about half a year old now, but it'll do)

Where's the big-busted serving wench with the bier steins and a huge smile?

I picked 3. A couple others were close, but 3 was best.
I'd have to agree, where'd she get off to? According to Laura I'm supposed to marry that serving wench with fistfuls of steins!

All of the above!

;)

That would be me. :D

An example of a fairly average person with a German Passport.(It's about half a year old now, but it'll do)
You are rather cute :p I updated my reply.

Well, I have some German ancestry, but I don’t really think about it too much. When someone says “Germany” I think of World War II, lazy people and a foreign language class I’ve been faking my way through for three years.

Sigh...even though Germans are actually one of the most productive nations in the EU, you still think they are lazy? :confused:

Sigh...even though Germans are actually one of the most productive nations in the EU, you still think they are lazy? :confused:
I wouldn't say lazy, I'd say anti-social and distant. When I was in Germany no one, absolutely no one looked me in the eye except for my friend who I met up with. It was odd, everyone I talked to kinda looked over my left or right shoulders. I mean, sure, my German was somewhat lacking (I'd imagine it's quite similar to Mark Twain's German, which he had described as "unique"), and when I spoke it was pretty obvious I was a foreigner, but still, it was odd...

Odd, as most Germans I have met tend to break stereotypes I have heard about them. They are friendly, polite and well spoken, as well as honest, at least the ones I have met. Europeans are a bit more distant on the whole than Americans. Perhaps what you perceived as unfriendliness is merely a difference in cultures?

Well, here are my answers:

1: Well, he is German...but he's not exactly doing something that I would consider "typisch Deutsch". So I said "No".

2: No. Most certainly not.

3: They're Bavarians...so "No". ;)

4: Yes. It's a German product, and one that is very well-known around the world.

5: Yes. He scores goals for out National Team, he speaks fluent German ("Deutsch" originally being a word denoting people who speak the language) and he's a citizen. All my life I've been around immigrants from all over the place, and I don't see it as a criterion.

6: Well, yes. :p

7: Yes. He's as German as it gets...at least in the typical (stereotypical?) way. And without him, there wouldn't have been a Germany in the first place. Princeps indeed.

I acknowledge my Dutch (germanic) roots as part of my heritage.
Have you ever been to the Netherlands? I'm not sure how many of them would appreciate being thrown into the same pot with Germans. Especially after we beat them at the Football in '74.

One thing you must realise is that we South Africans are not welcome in our home country.
You mean White South Africans. Black people are just as South African as you are.

Sadly, this is the result of Dutch colonialism. We must live with it today. The nearest heritage we have is our European one.
I'm not sure what you mean. It seems like what you are really doing though is denying your own past because it is ugly. Boers, Afrikaners and all the rest of them are your heritage, closer than Holland.

Where's the big-busted serving wench with the bier steins and a huge smile?
That's what I wondered when I was back in Germany. Seems she wasn't around everytime I was looking.

Sigh...even though Germans are actually one of the most productive nations in the EU, you still think they are lazy? :confused:
I think of Europeans in general as lazy and maybe a bit… “ethnically challenged.”

I think of Europeans in general as lazy and maybe a bit… “ethnically challenged.”
You're free to think as you please, but if you want anyone to believe you, you might have to provide some evidence.

Have you ever been to the Netherlands? I'm not sure how many of them would appreciate being thrown into the same pot with Germans. Especially after we beat them at the Football in '74.

You mean White South Africans. Black people are just as South African as you are.

I'm not sure what you mean. It seems like what you are really doing though is denying your own past because it is ugly. Boers, Afrikaners and all the rest of them are your heritage, closer than Holland.

Black South Africans are of opinion that the country is theirs and theirs alone. We are a shrinking minority.

Indeed, Afrikaaners are my heritage, yet this heritage extends all the way back to Holland. My grandmother is half dutch in fact.

The Dutch, whether they like it or not, are linked to the Germans by origin.

You're free to think as you please, but if you want anyone to believe you, you might have to provide some evidence.
Indeed, that would be helpful.

Odd, as most Germans I have met tend to break stereotypes I have heard about them. They are friendly, polite and well spoken, as well as honest, at least the ones I have met. Europeans are a bit more distant on the whole than Americans. Perhaps what you perceived as unfriendliness is merely a difference in cultures?
Might be it, and indeed they were quite well spoken.

All I had to go on was gut reaction. So I voted for the things that reminded me of Germany somehow. I didn't see the flags in 1 until a second viewing, I didn't know who the two people in the pictures (5 and 6) were, and the rest did remind me of Germany somehow. 2 obviously doesn't remind me of contemporary Germany, no more than slavery reminds me of contemporary US, but that was not the criterion I used (maybe it should have been?). 3 is because of the Leiderhosen(sp?), 4 because Mercedes is a German car company. And finally, 7 is because pointy hats make me think of a Simpsons scene in which a class of WWI recreationists graduates and tosses their pointy hats into the air before realizing what a horrible mistake they made.

Olara']I didn't know who the two people in the pictures (5 and 6) were...
The black guy is Gerald Asamoah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Asamoah), a football player for the German National Team and Schalke 04.

You're free to think as you please, but if you want anyone to believe you, you might have to provide some evidence.
Evidence for how I think? Short of telepathy, I don’t see how that’s going to happen.:p
I was simply stating my prejudices. I wouldn’t expect a German to be the way I picture them, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

What in the world would lead you to believe we are lazy and ethnically challenged? :confused:

Indeed, Afrikaaners are my heritage, yet this heritage extends all the way back to Holland. My grandmother is half dutch in fact.
But that simply shifts the question: Afrikaaners left the Netherlands a long time ago. They kinda speak Dutch, but different from real Dutch. Their culture is linked to the lifestyle the settlers lived, to the land and the society there.
And since there is no such thing as an Ethnic Dutch (or an Ethnic German I would contest), culture is the only thing we can go by.

The black guy is Gerald Asamoah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Asamoah), a football player for the German National Team and Schalke 04.
Thanks. That bit about his heart sucks. Pretty courageous to play football with a condition like that, if you ask me (which you didn't ;)).

You would be surprised to see that we have preserved many elements of Dutch culture though, although naturally we are different from the current Dutch, as the customs we preserved date back to the 17th c. Sadly though, the way South Africa is going, I doubt that any of this culture will survive. My future now lies in the EU, and more specifically Sweden, to which I want to relocate when I am done studying. I will, of course, bear with me that which my culture has imparted me with, yet in a few years I will be more European than anything else.

But that simply shifts the question: Afrikaaners left the Netherlands a long time ago. They kinda speak Dutch, but different from real Dutch. Their culture is linked to the lifestyle the settlers lived, to the land and the society there.
And since there is no such thing as an Ethnic Dutch (or an Ethnic German I would contest), culture is the only thing we can go by.
Kinda like what happened to British colonials. I doubt anyone would identify a Canadian or American as "British," but neither would anyone deny that these people share a common British heritage, even though it gets a little muddled due to influences on culture from other immigrants to North America.

Olara']Kinda like what happened to British colonials. I doubt anyone would identify a Canadian or American as "British," but neither would anyone deny that these people share a common British heritage, even though it gets a little muddled due to influences on culture from other immigrants to North America.
Very similar to this.

What in the world would lead you to believe we are lazy and ethnically challenged? :confused:
You have laws that say you can’t work over a certain number of hours, your nation’s large unemployment and its rampant socialism. Thus, in my mind, lazy.

I think of all Western Europeans as ethnically challenged. Biology shows us that the more genetically diverse an organism is, the more immunities it has and the more generally healthy it is. Europe is improving in this regard, but many of its non-white races are still isolated into their own communities, while social stigmas attached to “the mixing of the races” are rapidly disintegrating in the US. Even with color barriers, Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts. It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.

Olara']Kinda like what happened to British colonials. I doubt anyone would identify a Canadian or American as "British," but neither would anyone deny that these people share a common British heritage, even though it gets a little muddled due to influences on culture from other immigrants to North America.
More immigrants came from Ireland and Germany than ever came from Britain (England-Scotland-Wales).

It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.
But again I would contest that there is no genetic difference between a Brit, a French (strange...you can say "a German", but can you say "a British" or "a French"?) person, a Swede or a Pole.

Even the genetic difference between a German and a Russian would be tiny.

You have laws that say you can’t work over a certain number of hours, your nation’s large unemployment and its rampant socialism. Thus, in my mind, lazy.

I think of all Western Europeans as ethnically challenged. Biology shows us that the more genetically diverse an organism is, the more immunities it has and the more generally healthy it is. Europe is improving in this regard, but many of its non-white races are still isolated into their own communities, while social stigmas attached to “the mixing of the races” are rapidly disintegrating in the US. Even with color barriers, Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts. It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.
Have you ever studied economics? Or are you even aware of what the work limit is in the EU?

As for your second argument, you seem to ignore the fact that with any strengths and immunities you inherit, you also inherit weaknesses. Europeans are extremely diverse. We comprise of many subdivisions of the white race, each distinctly different because each region of Europe is so different to the others.

But again I would contest that there is no genetic difference between a Brit, a French (strange...you can say "a German", but can you say "a British" or "a French"?) person, a Swede or a Pole.

Even the genetic difference between a German and a Russian would be tiny.
Very true, yet one must remember that organisms adapt to their environment. The difference between a German and a Russian would be miniscule in fact.

But again I would contest that there is no genetic difference between a Brit, a French (strange...you can say "a German", but can you say "a British" or "a French"?) person, a Swede or a Pole.

Even the genetic difference between a German and a Russian would be tiny.
In genetics, a tiny but can mean quite a lot. Just look at chimpanzees.
As for your second argument, you seem to ignore the fact that with any strengths and immunities you inherit, you also inherit weaknesses. Europeans are extremely diverse. We comprise of many subdivisions of the white race, each distinctly different because each region of Europe is so different to the others.
The more diverse the genetic pool, the less likely you are to inherit weaknesses.

In genetics, a tiny but can mean quite a lot. Just look at chimpanzees.

The more diverse the genetic pool, the less likely you are to inherit weaknesses.
Which is why 50% of Americans are of mixed blood, right? :rolleyes: No, really, what percentage of Americans is of mixed blood? And how do you know that Europeans, from different regions, by mixing, are not strengthening their gene pool?

Why no picture of a busty blond wench serving beer?

THAT's what I think of when I think "German". Not because I buy into stereotypes, but because I like thinking about busty blond serving wenches.

Which is why 50% of Americans are of mixed blood, right? :rolleyes: No, really, what percentage of Americans is of mixed blood?
I am not aware, however, I can’t think of a single person I know who has ancestry from just one country.

I am not aware, however, I can’t think of a single person I know who has ancestry from just one country.
Same with Europeans. Many of us come from a variety of European nations. A European may have many variations of germanic blood, slavic blood, mediterranean blood and so on and so on. Each European region is distinct enough to merit adaptation so as to make each group at least somewhat different. So I do not see how we are ethnically challenged. And when making such assertions, back them up with figures first.

I am not aware, however, I can’t think of a single person I know who has ancestry from just one country.

I can think of a couple people.

However when you say mixed do you mean like between races...one white parent one black parent...or do you mean between ethnic groups...one parent of german descent one parent of English descent.

Because you you mean the latter then I fall under that...My family comes from 2 parts of Europe, well three if you consider Germans and Austrians ethnically different.

Where's the big-busted serving wench with the bier steins and a huge smile?

I picked 3. A couple others were close, but 3 was best.

Yep, they're my favourite Germans too.

Where's the big-busted serving wench with the bier steins and a huge smile?

I picked 3. A couple others were close, but 3 was best.

Yep, they're my favourite Germans too. :)

it is very difficult...i pick one of them (No5) but its more hope than reality

and I told all off you ...even to them, who don´t want to know:

We are living in 2005 not in WW2
And Hitler is dead , and with him died his ideas
And Honecker is dead too....

it is very difficult...i pick one of them (No5) but its more hope than reality

and I told all off you ...even to them, who don´t want to know:

We are living in 2005 not in WW2
And Hitler is dead , and with him died his ideas
And Honecker is dead too....
Hitler is dead? OMG why didn't anyone tell me!? :eek:

:rolleyes:

Hitler is dead? OMG why didn't anyone tell me!? :eek:

:rolleyes:

Have you seen "Goodbye, Lenin" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/)? Same reason. ;)

You have laws that say you can’t work over a certain number of hours, your nation’s large unemployment and its rampant socialism. Thus, in my mind, lazy.

I think of all Western Europeans as ethnically challenged. Biology shows us that the more genetically diverse an organism is, the more immunities it has and the more generally healthy it is. Europe is improving in this regard, but many of its non-white races are still isolated into their own communities, while social stigmas attached to “the mixing of the races” are rapidly disintegrating in the US. Even with color barriers, Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts. It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.



hahahaahah this guys is great , "Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts" , funny he should visit dublin some time , lots races here , i myself and an Irish Italian , and german lazy ? hmm i wonder why their product like cars are so well built , anyway i picked picture 3 i knows it not really the most german but its what i thought off when i saw it , i would have picked Gerald Asamoah if i knew him better, if it was a pick of say Kahn or something i have gone with that , anyway cant wait to visited german for the world cup ( even if ireland did not make it , or will have to follow the Azzurri) , and just like to say germans are great people , goot friend in E.U. and great friend to my country ireland ( p.s. thanks for guns to fight the english lol )

Have you seen "Goodbye, Lenin" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/)? Same reason. ;)
Actually no, I haven't seen it, but now that you mention it, I have been planning to see it. As with all things I plan to buy though, it is probably lost somewhere in the depths of my Amazon wish list. :rolleyes:

A better question would be: what is love? (http://ckjcwf.ytmnd.com/)

Hitler is dead? OMG why didn't anyone tell me!? :eek:

:rolleyes:


If you ask me : I don´t believe that he died in 45 , because i have never found a picture of dead Hitler or his wife Eva... In my opinion, he was a coward and so he escaped from the Allies to Belgium and from there to South America, and after a sucessful facelifting he continued his carreer in east-germany under the name Erich Honecker

If you ask me : I don´t believe that he died in 45 , because i have never found a picture of dead Hitler or his wife Eva... In my opinion, he was a coward and so he escaped from the Allies to Belgium and from there to South America, and after a sucessful facelifting he continued his carreer in east-germany under the name Erich Honecker

Let's see... Hitler was born on the 21st of April 1889, Honecker died on the 29th of May 1994.
Vegetarian lifstyle and stirct teetotalism must really prolong life significantly :D

Let's see... Hitler was born on the 21st of April 1889, Honecker died on the 29th of May 1994.
Vegetarian lifstyle and stirct teetotalism must really prolong life significantly :D

good surgeons in bolivia, aren´t they ?

good surgeons in bolivia, aren´t they ?

If so, they sure managed to keep their qualifications a very close secret...

I'm Canadian/American and I am of German Descent. Although my family has been in North America for about 240 years, I am still about 3/4 German. The other Quarter is Norwegian. Anyways, I voted number 7. Bismarck was one hell of a model German.

The Dutch, whether they like it or not, are linked to the Germans by origin.

You would have to go back several thousand years, though. The Netherlands and Germany became two different nations even before the middle ages...

You have laws that say you can’t work over a certain number of hours, your nation’s large unemployment and its rampant socialism. Thus, in my mind, lazy.

I think of all Western Europeans as ethnically challenged. Biology shows us that the more genetically diverse an organism is, the more immunities it has and the more generally healthy it is. Europe is improving in this regard, but many of its non-white races are still isolated into their own communities, while social stigmas attached to “the mixing of the races” are rapidly disintegrating in the US. Even with color barriers, Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts. It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.


The number of hours you can work per week per job is regulated, yes. There's no law whatsoever against you having more than one job, though, if you can find them, and nothing whatsoever would hinder you to work 24/7 if you so wish.

The most genetically diverse continent still is Africa, way ahead of all other continents.
You will not find much difference in genetic diversity when moving from one European country to the next, as the countries never were a hinderance to intermarriage. My own ancestors came from Sweden, Germany, Austria, the Chezch Republic and (althouh that's not 100% sure) Spain. And I'm just a regular German living in Ireland... You will find very few people indeed in Germany whose ancestry has been exclusively German for the last few hundred years ;)

The only Germans I know are Filipino by blood, and don't consider themselves German, despite living there since birth (some of them, others 20+ years). They generally reject the language and culture... of course, they lived in a heavily-Filipino area in Germany, so it was easy to go around without speaking the language or participating in cultural events.. the ones that have moved here have assimilated pretty thoroughly, at least the younger ones.

Well, I'm German myself, and I would have to pick all the pictures except No.6 as an answer to "Which pictures automatically make you think "That's German!"?"

That doesn't mean I like the concept/time in history/cliché of Germany they represent, or even like the fact that they make me think of Germany in the first place. But they all make me think of Germany - maybe not as the very first thing I would say in description, but certainly among the first five or so.

I wouldn't pick No. 6 because to me it's not immediately identifiable as a German person, no matter how "typical" it may look to people from abroad. I guess such things are much more easily seen from the outside - similar as to how in Europe most people can spot Americans rather easily*. In your own country, you're bound to have a much more differentiated and diverse picture of your fellow countrymen, while as a foreigner, you might find some uniting features that make up an easily recognizable stereotype.


*of course, only those who look "typically American", whatever that is.

I wouldn't pick No. 6 because to me it's not immediately identifiable as a German person...
Yeah, I'm surprised how many people apparently think I "look German". :confused:

You have laws that say you can’t work over a certain number of hours, your nation’s large unemployment and its rampant socialism. Thus, in my mind, lazy.

I think of all Western Europeans as ethnically challenged. Biology shows us that the more genetically diverse an organism is, the more immunities it has and the more generally healthy it is. Europe is improving in this regard, but many of its non-white races are still isolated into their own communities, while social stigmas attached to “the mixing of the races” are rapidly disintegrating in the US. Even with color barriers, Americans are still far more mixed that their European counterparts. It is not uncommon to find people who have ancestry from so many countries, that they don’t’ bother remembering them all.


So you are a european culture expert.
First of all - there is no such thing as a law that outlaws working more than e.g. 8 hours a day.

There are union agreements to protect workers thar limits the working hours a day or month. And your employer gets trouble with his company accident insurance when you crash your car while driving home after working 13 hours (you get inattentive).

And this part beginning with "Biology shows us ..." is perfect nonsense. Americans are generally more healthy or what? By the way - be careful talking of "races" - from a biological (genetical) point of view there is only one race - humans. All humans are very closely related and share 99.999 genetic code.

And I'm still working to comprehend the part of the "isolated european non white races".

And I'm still working to comprehend the part of the "isolated european non white races".
Welcome to NS! :D

Yeah, I'm surprised how many people apparently think I "look German". :confused:

You look like a Ukranian friend of mine.. that was my first reaction. Although I'm sure there's quite a bit of admixture there.. do you think there is a unique ethnicity there? I never thought there was, but it's interesting..

You look like a Ukranian friend of mine.. that was my first reaction. Although I'm sure there's quite a bit of admixture there.. do you think there is a unique ethnicity there? I never thought there was, but it's interesting..
No idea, ask an Ukranian. I think the whole idea of ethnicity is silly anyways, at least in Europe, because neither do any countries actually coincide with specific ethnic groups, nor are any of the initial ethnic groups still "pure" (for want of a better word) because everyone bred with everyone else, and even those initial ethnic groups all came from the same people.

Which is what makes it so curious that people in immigration-based countries like the US or Australia often claim a certain background - despite having no contact with the only thing that makes a German different from a Pole: The Culture.

No idea, ask an Ukranian. I think the whole idea of ethnicity is silly anyways, at least in Europe, because neither do any countries actually coincide with specific ethnic groups, nor are any of the initial ethnic groups still "pure" (for want of a better word) because everyone bred with everyone else, and even those initial ethnic groups all came from the same people.

Which is what makes it so curious that people in immigration-based countries like the US or Australia often claim a certain background - despite having no contact with the only thing that makes a German different from a Pole: The Culture.


Most of the time they claim that they identify with the culture, though. Have you ever seen what passes for Sauerkraut in the USA? I really didn't believe my eyes... it wasn't bad, but it wasn't Sauerkraut, either :eek:

The problem is that they normally would identify with a culture that has been either "watered down" by influences in their new country, or else with a culture as handed down by their parents or grandparents, but is long outdated in the original country...

Have you ever seen what passes for Sauerkraut in the USA? I really didn't believe my eyes... it wasn't bad, but it wasn't Sauerkraut, either :eek:
I probably wouldn't be able to tell...haven't eaten Sauerkraut in all my life. :p

I wonder what took me so long finding this thread...work, I guess :p

I voted 4 and 7, and you definitely do not look german to me...eher hamburgisch ;)

And now I have to go back up my genetic diversity :D (never even thinking about that the north american population derived from a few hundred european ancestors :rolleyes: )