NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=4b61df57-9d01-44cf-a7dc-1881320b22aa&k=50612

Families of Homolka victims reeling as Quebec judge rules in killer's favour
Nelson Wyatt, Canadian Press
Published: Wednesday, November 30, 2005

MONTREAL (CP) - The mother of one of Karla Homolka's teenage victims said she felt "kicked in the stomach" on Wednesday after a judge ruled the schoolgirl killer can come and go with no restrictions.

The families of slain teenagers Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy reacted with horror to news that Homolka no longer has to report to the police and can even contact them and her ex-husband Paul Bernardo.

"The shock and disbelief and anguish that they expressed to me on the phone this morning was very painful to hear," Tim Danson, the families' lawyer, said in Toronto.

Danson said Debbie Mahaffy, Leslie's mother, told him 'I feel that I have been kicked in the stomach.' "

Justice James Brunton of Quebec Superior Court acknowledged in his ruling the possibility that Homolka, who now goes under the name Karla Leanne Teale, could reoffend one day.

What exactly does this say about the death penalty working? Seems to me it's just labeling the guy a child-murderer...

...the hell...?

Ms. Holmoka did not deserve a death sentence. She was a victim as well as a perpetrator. She also cooperated with authorities and pled guilty. She served her full sentence of 12 years. She has shown deep remorse and actively rehabilitated herself.

Ms. Holmoka did not deserve a death sentence. She was a victim as well as a perpetrator. She also cooperated with authorities and pled guilty. She served her full sentence of 12 years. She has shown deep remorse and actively rehabilitated herself.

If there's a 1 percent chance of her reoffending, I think they should have executed her.

Ms. Holmoka did not deserve a death sentence. She was a victim as well as a perpetrator. She also cooperated with authorities and pled guilty. She served her full sentence of 12 years. She has shown deep remorse and actively rehabilitated herself.
So let's just forget about the whole "murder" thing why don't we?

You really should've quoted this bit as well.
"However, her development over the last 12 years demonstrates, on a balance of probabilities, that this is unlikely to occur. She does not represent a real and imminent danger to commit a personal injury offence. . The appeal should be granted."

Homolka left prison in July after completing a 12-year sentence for manslaughter in the sordid sex slayings of French and Mahaffy in the 1990s.

Of course the victims will doubt the decision...but the point is that the Judicial System decided that she is no longer a significant risk factor.

What all that has to do with the Death Penalty though is beyond me...she only offended this one time, did she not? So if she's not a repeat offender, then you have no point.

If there's a 1 percent chance of her reoffending, I think they should have executed her.
Might as well just kill everybody at birth then.

So let's just forget about the whole "murder" thing why don't we?
You mean the death penalty?

So let's just forget about the whole "murder" thing why don't we?
So, if she were dead they wouldn't forget? How is this even a solution?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=4b61df57-9d01-44cf-a7dc-1881320b22aa&k=50612

Families of Homolka victims reeling as Quebec judge rules in killer's favour
Nelson Wyatt, Canadian Press
Published: Wednesday, November 30, 2005

MONTREAL (CP) - The mother of one of Karla Homolka's teenage victims said she felt "kicked in the stomach" on Wednesday after a judge ruled the schoolgirl killer can come and go with no restrictions.

The families of slain teenagers Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy reacted with horror to news that Homolka no longer has to report to the police and can even contact them and her ex-husband Paul Bernardo.

"The shock and disbelief and anguish that they expressed to me on the phone this morning was very painful to hear," Tim Danson, the families' lawyer, said in Toronto.

Danson said Debbie Mahaffy, Leslie's mother, told him 'I feel that I have been kicked in the stomach.' "

Justice James Brunton of Quebec Superior Court acknowledged in his ruling the possibility that Homolka, who now goes under the name Karla Leanne Teale, could reoffend one day.
Yes yes it would have worked, unfortunately the guy's still living.

You mean the death penalty?
No I meant the guilty woman killing the child and you damn well know that.

Why do you value this murderer's life above a poor girl I may never know.

Might as well just kill everybody at birth then.
No, the difference here is that both she and her boyfriend demonstrated beyond a doubt that they had the propensity to commit not only murder, but murder by horrific means.

Based on the work of Yochelson and Samenow, I do not believe for a second that she is rehabilitated.

No I meant the guilty woman killing the child and you damn well know that.

Why do you value this murderer's life above a poor girl I may never know.
I don't value it above the girl, I put just as much value on both. That's why I could never agree with the murder of either.

I don't value it above the girl, I put just as much value on both. That's why I could never agree with the murder of either.
Well there's your problem. In your quest to find a happy-go-lucky world you value a rapist equal to that of a 5-year old girl to that of a child molestor to that of yourself.

No, the difference here is that both she and her boyfriend demonstrated beyond a doubt that they had the propensity to commit not only murder, but murder by horrific means.
Many have the capacity to commit murder and have never demonstrated it, does that make their 'potential' any less?

Surely the point of prison should be to 'rehabilitate' (as much as I dislike the use of the word, but you get the point), educate, and to pay the 'debt to society' and all that sort of thing? And yes, to an extent, to punish.

What's the point in what is essentially a revenge murder? Will it undo anything? Does it actually punish? Is there any point in causing anguish for another family?

Based on the work of Yochelson and Samenow, I do not believe for a second that she is rehabilitated.
When people say "rehabilitated" it always makes me think of the Shawshank Redemption..."Rehabilitated? Well, Now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means. "

So let's just forget about the whole "murder" thing why don't we?

Um. She pled guilty to manslaughter and served a full 12-year sentence.

Well there's your problem. In your quest to find a happy-go-lucky world you value a rapist equal to that of a 5-year old girl to that of a child molestor to that of yourself.
No, I value their life, if not them as people. That's why I would throw them in jail and lock the key, but I could never justify the murder of anybody.

What gives you the right to take somebodys life? To decide that you are more deserving of life than another?

Yes yes it would have worked, unfortunately the guy's still living.

Yes. He is a nasty piece of work. The true villian.

Um. She pled guilty to manslaughter and served a full 12-year sentence.
And suddenly she's a saint isn't she?

No, I value their life, if not them as people. That's why I would throw them in jail and lock the key, but I could never justify the murder of anybody.

What gives you the right to take somebodys life? To decide that you are more deserving of life than another?
What gives you the right to say what's right and what's wrong? The feeling of self-satisfaction you get when you think your right?

No, the difference here is that both she and her boyfriend demonstrated beyond a doubt that they had the propensity to commit not only murder, but murder by horrific means.

Based on the work of Yochelson and Samenow, I do not believe for a second that she is rehabilitated.

I don't think you know the facts of this case.

Are you aware that Ms. Holmka was suffering from battered women's syndrome and compliant victim syndrome when she aided her husband in committing the crimes in question.

And suddenly she's a saint isn't she?

Who said that?

But she was punished for her crimes. You implied she was not.

She is also a very different person now.

What gives you the right to say what's right and what's wrong? The feeling of self-satisfaction you get when you think your right?
No, it's called freedom of speech, and I believe you were exercising it in quite the same way earlier in the thread.

I don't think you know the facts of this case.

Are you aware that Ms. Holmka was suffering from battered women's syndrome and compliant victim syndrome when she aided her husband in committing the crimes in question.

While I sympathize with the victims of battered women's syndrome, I do not for a second believe that it excuses anyone from murder.

She certainly could have gone for help long before anyone was killed.

Maybe I read too much Samenow nowadays to believe nearly any defense that involves any psychological syndrome.

Who said that?

The voices. :rollseyes: You implied that.


She is also a very different person now.
Yeah, Saddam hasn't committed a murder in like 2 years. Let's put him off the hook as well why don't we?

No, it's called freedom of speech, and I believe you were exercising it in quite the same way earlier in the thread.
Well by:
What gives you the right to take somebodys life? To decide that you are more deserving of life than another?
Your either asking me why the hell am I God, an executioner, or a murderer.

Anyway now you want to accuse me of being against the freedom of speech as well as supporting the death penalty...that's cute.

What gives you the right to say what's right and what's wrong? The feeling of self-satisfaction you get when you think your right?
Back at ya, buddy.

The voices. :rollseyes: You implied that.



Yeah, Saddam hasn't committed a murder in like 2 years. Let's put him off the hook as well why don't we?

So, anyone that commits any homicide or rape -- regardless of the circumstances, of their age, even if they were a victim themselves -- should just be put to death. Anything else is "treating them as a saint."

What a wonderful world.

Well by:

Your either asking me why the hell am I God, an executioner, or a murderer.
Yes, I'm asking why you think you should have that right.

Anyway now you want to accuse me of being against the freedom of speech as well as supporting the death penalty...that's cute.
I do? I want to accuse you of being against freedom of speech as well? News to me. Perhaps you could quote where I said exactly that.

So, anyone that commits any murder or rape -- regardless of the circumstances, of their age, even if they were a victim themselves -- should just be put to death. Anything else is "treating them as a saint."

Absolutely.

What a wonderful world.

You're forgetting that the criminal commits the crime. If they didn't commit the crime, no one would be executed.

So, anyone that commits any murder or rape -- regardless of the circumstances, of their age, even if they were a victim themselves -- should just be put to death. Anything else is "treating them as a saint."

What a wonderful world.
Who said that? Oh that's right, you.

Yes, I'm asking why you think you should have that right.
Well I'm not the executioner. Maybe you should ask him. I would think that it's a very nice job filled with benefits.


I do? I want to accuse you of being against freedom of speech as well? News to me. Perhaps you could quote where I said exactly that.
Sure

I do? I want to accuse you of being against freedom of speech as well? News to me. Perhaps you could quote where I said exactly that.

Back on topic por favor.

There are two books that I recommend on the subject of rehabilitation (and its failure).

Inside the Criminal Mind, by Stanton Samenow, PhD
and
The Criminal Personality, by Yochelson and Samenow

Dr. Samenow is the country's premier expert evaluator of whether or not a defendant meets the definition of "insanity". Both he and Yochelson have spent a lifetime of researching the methods and failures of rehabilitation.

As a result, I just don't believe in rehabilitation. Ever.

Yeah, Saddam hasn't committed a murder in like 2 years. Let's put him off the hook as well why don't we?
This is like a whole new version of the Godwin...

Sure

I do? I want to accuse you of being against freedom of speech as well? News to me. Perhaps you could quote where I said exactly that.

Back on topic por favor.

Yes, I believe that properly answered my question. Everybody knows selective quoting, and completely ignoring context, is a good way to debate with somebody. Congratulations. You've truly shown yourself to be a genius.

Yes, I believe that properly answered my question. Everybody knows selective quoting and completely ignoring context, is a good way to debate with somebody. Congratulations.You've truly shown yourself to be a genius.
Pity I can't say the same to you.

Absolutely.

You're forgetting that the criminal commits the crime. If they didn't commit the crime, no one would be executed.

I should have said homicide. Ms. Holmka was not convicted of murder.

She was partially forced to commit her crimes.

Her husband beat her and raped her routinely.

She had battered women's syndrome.

She had compliant victim's syndrome.

She cooperated with the authorities, pled guilty, and testified against her husband.

She was 17 to 24 when the crimes were committed.

She committed no crimes that were not orchestrated by her husband.

He committed several rapes and murders without her.

She still deserves a bullet to the head?

I should have said homicide. Ms. Holmka was not convicted of murder.

She was partially forced to commit her crimes.

Her husband beat her and raped her routinely.

She had battered women's syndrome.

She had compliant victim's syndrome.

She cooperated with the authorities, pled guilty, and testified against her husband.

She was 17 to 24 when the crimes were committed.

She committed no crimes that were not orchestrated by her husband.

He committed several rapes and murders without her.

She still deserves a bullet to the head?


Like I said, I don't believe in any of the syndromes. She was essentially an adult. Sounds like conspiracy to commit capital murder (and any other felonies they committed).

Like our constitution says: "There shall be no capital punishment." *hugs and likes*

That is all.

Like our constitution says: "There shall be no capital punishment." *hugs and likes*

That is all.
Well, I'll go hug the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms instead (as well as the Human Rights Act) :)

No, the difference here is that both she and her boyfriend demonstrated beyond a doubt that they had the propensity to commit not only murder, but murder by horrific means.
And you have stated more than once that you would annihilate the entire populations of Afghanistan and North Korea given the opportunity. Does that mean that you should be executed?